The time has come to move again.
For those of you who got here through coincidence or pure chance, this discussion is about a group called the Fellowship of Friends. I would recommend starting reading from page 1, as what is being said now is quite far removed from what the discussion was about at the beginning. Find out for yourself whether the Fellowship of Friends is a genuine spiritual school, or a dangerous cult, as believed by many who have left. Or simply enjoy interacting with so many interesting and exciting people.
For part 8 click here.
For part 7 click here.
For part 6 click here.
For part 5 click here.
For part 4 click here.
For part 3 click here.
For part 2 click here.
For the article that I wrote so very long ago, and for the first and potentially most enlightening part of the discussion click here.
For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.
And as always, enjoy and have fun.
To get back to the main page click here: HOME
May 11, 2007 at 12:22 pm
Dear all,
The Greater Fellowship in northern California is happy to announce a great event! We are getting together in North San Juan, outside Nevada City, to celebrate and strengthen our old friendships, make new ones, and deepen our presence together. So, IT’S PARTY TIME, and we invite you all to come make it the best ever!
The party starts Saturday May 26th at 2 p.m. at the North Columbia Cultural Center (see http://www.sierrastorytellingfestival.org/maps.html for directions).
The steering committee is providing the venue and the minimum organization to keep things flowing with ease. With this in mind, please RSVP to Ames’ e-mail (below) to help us plan things as best we can.
You bring:
• Your sweet presence
• Food for a potluck beginning about 7 p.m.
• Beverages to your taste
• $15 per adult (to help pay for renting the space, clean-up and insurance)
• Musical instruments if you have them
• Stories to tell, memories to share
• Flexibility and willingness to go with the flow.
There will be something organized for Sunday morning, to be announced during Saturday evening.
There are no camping or other accommodations, but see below.
The party is open to all in the Greater Fellowship (you know who you are!) and their families and children. If you bring children, you are responsible for them (you may want to organize activities for them, as was done successfully in 1995). The weather is likely to be great (80 degree days), but come prepared for cold or wet (we have an indoor venue if needed).
Finally—the event is a guru-free zone!
With love to all,
Ames Gilbert (on behalf of the steering committee)
P.S. Questions? E-mail me at: nancyames (at) accessbee (dot) com, or call (530) 272-4775. Party business only, please.
For questions about accommodation (if you cannot find them on the web), e-mail Cathie at: cathieleavitt (at) sbcglobal (dot) net. There are lots of hotels, motels, B & Bs, and camping available in the area—but book soon, it’s Memorial Day weekend!
P.P.S. don’t worry about any emanations from a small dissident splinter group of the Greater Fellowship based in Oregon House…
May 11, 2007 at 3:02 pm
#439/8′ For my friend: it is the most disturbing story I’ve ever heard.
I remember that story, it came out a few years ago in the same way as you wrote it and shocked all of us here. Then, almost immediately, the news came that the woman accused her husband in raping her daughter because she was jealous of him. Later the story changed again into that the girl lied because she had a crash on her mother’s husband!
How ugly, twisted and perverse this all is! Crime after crime after crime.
Robert did all in his power to turn anybody away from him. I don’t know what else the man has to do to make people wake up and leave him, to actually run away as quickly as possible from such a monster. Does he now have to murder someone? Or it would be justified again, in the same manner, as all his other hideous crimes?
I am so sorry, my friend, I hope you’ll find strength to rebuild your life. I wonder how is your beautiful daughter doing? Last time I saw her she was about 3 years old, so pretty…
May 11, 2007 at 3:14 pm
Words that may evoke a state in you 1
—– fading words
Expanding experience, leaving all that was know behind, but knowing that which is in front of my eyes, …as for the first time. Nothing that is spectacular, nothing that would need books to explain. Only that which has been visible to everyone form the beginning, is finally unfolding its scent of satisfaction, to each simple moment. The WHY is gone, lifetimes have come and gone, to make clear the many dead-end roads that the unguided existence is prone to take. To see and experience the labyrinth that is existence, only to finally be eternally grateful to the hand that lifted me out of constant desire for something different than what is available right now.
This role has come to cut through all theories of complication that fuel the vanity of self-made saints, that talk of it all “being so easy”. To unveil the great work of “contradiction” that is never digestible to the mind that wants to sleep. To those that take maps for reality, to those that live on words and the exchange of words, to those that live on the outside and get their sense of identity form being nobody, to those who fight for whatever is their current identity, to those who live on the identity of the larger organism they have disappeared into.
The world belongs to those who do not want to possess it, who do not long for security and predictability, in poverty or richness, in sickness and in health, in black or white, in all the symbols of identity. Those that do not need to complete sentences to show their mastery of grammar, to those that do not belong to the dictionary of common behavior and that do not need to go against it either. How can anything that does not surprise your self, be of any value, be not just a repetition of thousand generations. Only because you do refuse to see the larger view, does not make your life unique.
“Only what everyone agrees to is so”, if it comes as a surprise to everyone. Without an agenda living every possible agenda in the universe, living all potential possibilities, without safety net,…. is given only to those few who are hold by the hands of the gods. Who do not need to find safety anymore in ideas, in theories, in predictions because they feel the closeness of certainty, that is without words in every instance of their life. Don’t they feel pain anymore? Yes they do, more intensely than they would ever have imagined that it would be possible, without words to console, without future to hope for, without possessions that they could invest with some of their pain.
“Every saint has come to express the divine in his simple way”…. And knowing that he is not here to make things understandable, but to make them experienceable and that the feeling of “knowing” is the most decided frontier to this divine marriage. “Blessed are those poor in theory…. because to them I will give paradise” and it takes so many lifetimes to give-up,…. it is not to gain understanding, to gain knowledge, to accumulate names and constructs of descriptions but to let them finally slip out of your hand to make it free that the god that is to become your guardian angle can hold you and guide you home.
Kiran@beingpresent.net
Pictures that may reflect this state in my eyes
May 11, 2007 at 3:38 pm
Old Dog Barks: Shelly #429
Old Dog remembers Shelley M (then Shelley F)…
She was a dyspeptic harpy, a privileged, spoiled daughter of a father (auto parts magnate) that funded her lifestyle.
She lorded-over all less fortunate than she. Old Dog recalls that she lived in the master bedroom on the top floor of a Town House in NYC with other students; she paying a reduced rent.
Ironic that it was the serfs that set you free when bandits invaded your lair.
How easily privileged tyrants put on the cloak of humility and integrity when they attempt to re-write history.
Homer: After Odysseus returned to Ithaca only his old dog Argos recognized him. (Argos was the first son of Zeus and a mortal woman)
May 11, 2007 at 4:14 pm
8/435 Rabbi Burns, the leading expert on awakening, forgets 2 simple but important truths:
Consciousness has degrees.
There is no permanent anything.
May 11, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Dear Knowledge,
I think your saying: “Words, Words, Words,
A Lot of Unnecesary Talk. Thousands of I`s.” – fully applies to your Beloved Teacher, to his unncecessary and meaningless verbal diarrhea, that he pores on all of you at the meetings. Please tell him this, if you dare – it would be very appropriate and honest. Just stand up right at the meeting and say it, OK?
Obviously you don’t like this discussion – well, then spare us please from your BRIEF and condescendent comments – they are truly UNNECESSARY and vain.
Say something meaningful or simply nice when you’re ready.
May 11, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Dear Sheik
can you please repeat the information where we can send money for donations to this blog.
I am sure in the 4th way everyone has learned that “payment is a principle”
thank you for your consistency
Kiran@beingpresent.net
May 11, 2007 at 5:54 pm
the gift of the doofi
Peoples peoples peoples,
Include even coot as chiding to receive with grace the presents that our salaried Defenders Of One Faith (Under Siege) friends bring.
Have to laugh, Howard Carter posits more cars caused in accident, the better the driver. And he is intellectual giant, compared to recent team-tag doofi. They wait for emotional blog incidents and jump in to claim credit. At least HC caused them.
Need not respond too much to them, coot thinking. Don’t want to fall for FOF game plan. Full-court press with little fouls to nuisance flow of attention. Note how more doofi posts when subject emotional. Actually, pretty good at it with admiration.
Appreciate emotional sensitivity of Exlax 101, name, well .. need say no more – doofus. GOlb provides sophistication rarely seen in life-peoples – coot thinking, yes – um that would be a: doofus. And Siddiq, Siddiq, what can the royal we say, bring amazing gift of sophistry unseen since days of Cratylus (proved impossibility of stepping into stream of water) but – glimmer just glimmer and maybe hope for – recovering doofus.
Can see the hidden hand of RB here. Genius really. Tag-team doofi is reflection of wizard-of-FOF.
And thus is real gift of the doofi – demonstrate without doubt with mathematical certaintude accurate level-of-be of current RBFOF. Intellectual gifts of HC, emotional maturity of Exlax 101, sophistication of GOlb. Quite impressive package indeed. (ahem)
Main reason coot understand this so well, tempering observes with a bit of …nostalgia, as in earlier days himself was doof. Maybe were you too? Someday current doofi (like others here) will be delivered as the children of Israel went up harnessed out of the land of Egypt.
Thus, gift of second sailing (deuteron ploun) like Socrates notes about his earlier life in Phaedo still possible for doofi, including grateful old coot.
coot very partial to second sailing (and all it implies), as serious sailors must take to oars when wind deserts their sails. Readjustment required, does not negate the voyage. Central lesson of RB, don’t need a weatherman to know which way the wind blows.
And as for doofi, so much trouble to guard a half-empty house, way-station really. When the time is right, the road continues before you too… deuteron ploun – the sailor’s sole journey
Plus ça change, plus c’est la même chose / the more things change the more they stay the same. Nevertheless, might hoping travel progress not be a circle, my sly friend, could be ascending spiral seen from correct angle? allons
May 11, 2007 at 6:04 pm
This is a copy of the letter we send out to our friends for our departure.
Dear friends,
A certain number of questions no longer find any response today for us.
To externally consider our friends and to avoid to those who are not, to misinterpret our departure, it seemed important to us to explain those reasons and to send this letter out to all the student concerned in the Paris centre and elsewhere.
Some of you will think that we are not doing our work anymore, be sure that, we also think likewise of them:
– Not to imitate others,
– Not to conform to what the feminine dominance imposes,
– To make efforts in an invisible way, not obligatory recognized by others,
– To have a personal project which one wants and to realize it in this life,
All these points require determination.
This has determined our work, creating an environment of real situations with their own obstacles to overcome.
This personal approach of the work is not encouraged by the school, and is even judged.
We “lived with it”, during many years when our work was also to do it despite all the opposition.
Conscience has been the priority in our approach, and that is what is missing today in the school.
This personal approach has really been beneficial for us and we have obtained the results of our efforts and the conviction to have adopted the right attitude. We were lucky to save our common sense in spite of many pressures.
However, this has put us in a complete solitude towards the school.
It is by suppressing information and communication, that the school has been able to function the same way for years, without questioning itself.
This has been organized through a series of subtle exercises: not expressing negative emotions, refraining from gossiping, not to have judgement, not seeing students that have left the school, not reading newspapers, not listening to the news, …….
On one side these exercises did change our being, brought efforts and real results , but on the other hand, they have brought a disastrous consequences upon relationships among student’s, upon second line work in general, and upon the discrimination faculty in each of us.
The school ensures that each one undermines its personal experience, and even feels guilty about it.
It institutionalises the self-depreciation throughout the years.
Very few among us can affirm that they offered themselves what they offered to Robert or to the school.
Isn’t that what we call of feminine dominance?
Only a total acceptance of the third line as it is today, allows an ersatz of second line, pale substitute to the quality of human relationship, which we have the right to expect and to live.
In preventing any blossom of conscience in human relations and in the realization of our lives, we have developed irresponsibility and emotional immaturity .
Conscience, this is really the main issue:
After having during years learned the simplicity of the present, the school now asks for mental gymnastics, which excludes verification, rigour and integrity.
Who can affirm to have verified the last conclusions and deductions of the teaching (prehistoric tradition, and so on..,)?
Who among us can re-explain these elements, from the depths of themselves, without taking again the pre-established, formatted and repetitive formulations that they have recorded?
These endless research (cathedrals, prehistoric tradition…), which would amuse any scrupulous researcher, trap students in making them believe in the necessity of acquiring always more material in order to be able to be present and awake.
This approach only constitutes a deviation of our attention regarding the essential and each one has his responsibility engaged when he accepts attending a meeting whose content is vacant, without rigour nor verification. We can’t show respect for such a teaching any further.
Our responsibility has been to join a school 23 years ago, not a religious organization.
The reasons of Robert to act in this direction may appear obscure, but obviously the results are not following.
To decide to stay in the school only for maintaining strong friendship and a pleasant social life appears to us to be the wrong choice.
We leave peacefully, by taking along what we gained and what belongs to us; and by leaving behind us what is without substance and illusory.
In Friendship.
Aline C. and Alexandre K., Paris
aaxarch@wanadoo.fr
May 11, 2007 at 6:25 pm
Siddiq (437): “I never expected a personal relationship with a teacher when I joined, but since many years now I do enjoy a deep, and I trust, lasting friendship which I will never trade or betray for anything. The day before I met Robert for the first time, a student, now deceased, said to me, about Robert, “****, You’ll never have a better friend…”
For My Friend (439): “A few months later after a Margarita Dinner with the Teacher he goes to her 9 years old daughter’s bedroom at night and molests her. When little girl screams for help and tells to her mom what happened, my friend reacts as any normal mother would and immediately calls the police…RB’s comment on this was that she made a tremendous mistake to call the police. Different students would talk to her everywhere expressing their mostly judgmental opinions. Among many there were: “he is an angel, he was with Robert” “he is in essence” “it was a Play written by the Gods”… A phone call from Linda T. – “The will of your Teacher is to not divorce him. Work with your queen of hearts. Are you going to disobey the will of your teacher?”
Siddiq, I hope to see you at the Greater Fellowship Party. I’ll be the one wearing the “I’m Not Rabbi Burns” t-shirt. I’m hoping you can explain how you can believe 437 in the light of 439 and the many similar stories.
cheers, RB
May 11, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Dear friends is “Trauma and Recovery” or “Waking the Tiger” or any other book teaches you how to help an abused person to realize that he is abused and start healing? Or is it only for those who already started to look out for help or healing?
I have many friends RB’s boys who are being abused for 5 or 10 years! They “managed” their natural feelings. They never speak about IT. They avoid talking about feelings at all. They became tough, they don’t listen to their “mechanicality” and they do not look out for help.
They feel challenged to “do what the machine does not want to do”, “stick it out till the end” or feel like “this is like a prison” and don’t want to give up, but one thing they don’t know – they are sick! They don’t know that people can be nice, loving, fair, just, happy – they don’t trust anyone! They believe that this what makes them conscious!
It is a very sad story. How to help them? What words, what techniques can “un-do” the abuse? I heard that there are some practices that help abused children to open up, to see it for what it is, and get it out of their system!
May 11, 2007 at 8:48 pm
#439 For my friend
This is one of the most irritating posts I have read.
“And shame on all of you people who were so brainwashed, scared and screwed up to blame my friend when she called the police!”
Of course she did the right thing calling the police. The allegation of molestation needs to be investigated. It is against the law.
Your “Dear, kind hearted friend” is brainwashed, scared and screwed up. The “brainwashed, scared and screwed up” that chastised her are dear and kind hearted.
It is ironic that we all probably joined the fof with a somewhat sincere, though naive, desire to “awaken” many of us didn’t notice when we crossed the line into the deep unconscious roots of sleep that kept us there.
It takes two to tango. Your little story is the best depiction of the sado-masochistic dance I have seen.
May 11, 2007 at 8:53 pm
To Post 8/427
on Kiran.
You ask
“How you knew what the document said (…)?”
What?
You are saying that there was, indeed, a document ?
Since you are busy bringing/asking for clarity, I take my chance too and ask you:
would you, please, tell us what the “document” you mention was? Its origine, its content, its purpuse and function, its destination and futur ? If you have energy left, your opinion about it might help too bringing CLARITY!
(You surely know about the 10 questions anyone should ask oneself to approach intelligenty whatever subject ? Great effort from? From Gurdjieff “bien sûr”!)
Sitting on His shoulders, with anticipated thanks.
I hope you can clean my air from the smoke your own words created.
“Can I breath the open air?” (Metallica)
To Trade Marker 8/425 on Gurdjieff and Ouspensky as a Trade Mark:
I am so grateful people like you can “dance” on flames I would even not imagine to imagine.
Brilliantly disturbing…
Robert Burton should have a copy of this!
To Sheik: Complimentsssssssssss!
May 11, 2007 at 9:00 pm
# 439 The story about the men molesting his “wifes daughter”
Dear: “for a friend” and all of us…
Did you know that you can get the person out of the country by just calling and informing the INS or the Oroville church who had so many accounts and treats to the fof?
Did you realise that?
And nobody does anything. Not you, not anybody else not me ….?
Is not that strange?
Did you know that your friend has a long standing history of abuse in more then one level?
Is not that strange?
We are part of this community, we do not act nor to prevent any abuse in the further. We do not act? STRANGE….
A question for the wise…among us!
Can we really change the future? And how?
Or is change already happening now?
Love.
May 11, 2007 at 9:16 pm
Siddiq (#8-437) said,“First, thank you for the invitation to the Party. I will attend and introduce myelf to you personally”. Siddiq, you’re welcome. You should know that my idea of a party is to have fun, so if you are coming to continue in the vein of the blog, I’ll ask you to desist. Indeed, I have a suggestion—introduce yourself by your real name, and don’t mention that you are “Siddiq” (unless you really are called Siddiq). Although I have had fun guessing the identity of some of the authors who have written using code names, I have no guesses about you. The advantage is that I can meet you without any preconceptions, and I can enjoy your presence without even knowing whether you are in the FOF or out—I’m certainly not going to ask. Hmm, I can see that this is one drawback of using my real name in this blog… Maybe I’ll go under an assumed name…
Regarding friendship with Burton. I have personally seen him many times in a ‘snit’, (which describes the flavor but is totally inadequate to describe the power of his emotions—if he hadn’t told me himself that he is conscious, I’d have thought that he was extremely identified) when he is crossed by his former ‘friends’, ranging from the rants (going on for months) about betrayal when folks of the caliber of Miles B. left, to pronouncements of criminality when less important persons such as myself leave, to petty acts of revenge when some woman takes affection or sperm from one of his boys. I would call him a fair-weather friend at best, certainly no conduit for unconditional love. I’d advise you to read up on “narcissistic personality disorder’ as quick as you can, and see if the shoe fits, then study the typical behavior of a narcissist when someone in his circle withdraws support. The value of a friend is not only when the going is good, in my opinion, but when disagreements come up; when ‘push comes to shove’, a true friend tells you what you need to know, not what makes you comfortable. To me, a measure of one’s valuation for such a true friend is how one accepts the information, and how much gratitude one can bring to the situation, if not immediately, at least upon reflection. I have never heard Burton express simple gratitude for the work and being of anyone who crossed him or left the FOF. Have you?
Looking forward to meeting you!
Ames
May 11, 2007 at 9:28 pm
A Reply to Siddiq & Ames
Hello Siddiq ~
you wrote… quoting Ames
“While we may disagree on its speed (you state ‘The FOF is very slow and inefficient’)–my progress is only slowed by my own inertia, resistance, reluctance, features, weaknesses, etc.”
________________________________
Ames, tell me if I’m off the mark here.
________________________________
Siddiq,
I sense that Ames is/was speaking of ‘Third Force’, not First Force. Yes, it is true, one can say that the weaknesses are in First Line ‘first’ and this inertia flows through Second and Third; yet, when looking at Apples to Apples, a carrot is not a fruit.
In other words, for me, I see a big turnaround in your school, where before to do ‘third line’ was a sort of ‘communal, family identity’, one that is in no small way unlike most human environments built up around being satellites to a Saturn…
Of these ‘communal efforts’ even real- efforts got through the net, I am sure of this, otherwise the students would not be superseding the school’s ability to keep them, though with change in level of being follows, by Law, a change in level of effort… The efforting in your ‘school’ is a bit backwards, which is how the spiritual-ego of many teacher’s works, it is attracted to the importance of god, yet not our relative position to the idea of god, this would be too hard for the pain body to digest, i.e., one’s relative being-position to one’s ideas of self or self-to-be.
Denying force reveals being:
it also reveals the ego’s incredible chameleon talents at making more form to
‘deny’ denying force’s transformation: your teacher’s contradictions are one example of this.
One must not make the mistake of thinking that the students are now what they were then; there is such a thing as ‘growth’, ‘not looking back’, ‘evolving as a being’…this is how it is possible to truly not judge oneself for a second ago, for a second ago is not the timeless progression of the one and only moment, in which one is embedded.
The real worth of the school’s essence has come under conscious scrutiny, sounds like an oxymoron, yet it is not. One may simply arrive to the point someday where you simply don’t have the time to keep pacing back and forth, waiting for the ‘labor’ to agree with the ‘birth’ to take place: simply go out and adopt one that’s all ready ‘out’.
Though this takes ‘being’, a certain level of becoming, which in itself is something that often results from having transformed the likes of the FoF… Though, my poet friends of Rilke, remember, enduring is not necessarily transformation. Rilke was a Lunar and much more, though ‘to endure’ can equate with willfullness, a kind of stubborn necessity to go against the mainstream.
Your teacher is a Saturn, it is no surprise that he has ‘naturally’ attracted ten thousand satellites round the planet of The Work…
I recall when this blog first came out: one thought came to my mind after another, thoughts I am sure students are artificiality living out this very Now, here are a few ~
Now’s the time to go to the teacher’s aid, to support the school, to show my ‘will’ throughout this difficult time, now’s the time to make efforts, this is a test from the gods, this will change the level of the school’s being and so on…
All this comes from the same place in all human beings when any small or large community receives an uncompromising ‘shock’: earthquakes, terrorist bombings, forest fires (1997), family deaths, corporate scandals, etc., bring people together mechanically, it is a sympathetic device which keeps ‘the pot stirring’.
I have heard of ex students, after having found out that the other has left and who have not seen each other in 3 – 4 years, calling and congratulating the other, making dinner plans and the like…
Of course, as time will tell, all this is False Personality and will not last, its a sympathetic mind game, misery loves company, and any situation that condones the placing of the word ‘misery’ next to ‘love’ needs constant attention. This is not to say that making new friends of old friends is not possible, just keep it deeply sincere, make a profit always in Misery’s company and take off those ‘purple hearts’, ‘pink moons’ and ‘green clovers’, tricks are for kids.
The FoF has not slowed down from its original pace, perhaps many, immersed in the form and not the content, perceive it as an acceleration, yet, I do not perceive this acceleration as a change in level of being for the students, although externally there is a quickening of the form’s symbolic fruits, yet, what good is 3000 spiritual swords if everyone is standing around with hands in the pockets waiting for a General to say “charge”, whose sitting at home thinking that the battle is always tomorrow?
Perhaps its a fleshy-habit to perceive our existence in a linear way, yet, as I am sure you know, the only part of our existence that is measured by time is that part that dies in time, the mechanical baggage we are present to.
For me, the ‘Third Force’ of the FoF is slow and inefficient, not because I always saw it thus, only, because it has not been able to keep up with the ‘real’ internal growth of its participants.
Self remembering goes beyond the lessons of your teacher, it, a phenomenon unto itself, is a teacher of the self, not the teacher’s teacher of the teacher, although there are some students who seem more inclined to think about themselves than be themselves when drawing comparisons and comprehensions of the teacher and C-Influence.
For the most part, I see allot of composers of the meaning of the play according to the FoF, yet very few people able to put the book down and stop writing ‘A History of Our Struggle To Be Historical Writer’s’…
Of course such a book is another ‘spiritual trap’, its very essence can never come to fruition: this is synonymous with the FoF’s stigma of Life Times.
Your school does not allow ‘Graduation’. As I believe Mr. Wheeler has partly perceived, there are ‘graduates’ who do not ‘know’ they are graduates. Its not that the Men #4 in the school are missing something from themselves, it is that they are missing something from the School, which in actuality is traditionally its own bridge for leaving itself.
This is not the case in the FoF… At best its one of those little trains that go through a forest, returning you back again at a different season to see the same forest in a different ‘color’.
There are students in the FoF that are basically the same as every Ex-member, this blog is a dress rehearsal for RB’s role ending…You think this is allot of writing from disgruntled spirits? What will follow after RB’s role ceasing will make this blog look like a spit in the bucket, a bucket that could hold Lake Tahoe.
Yet, quantity is not quality, though there is being here and essence growing with its being, that’s nearly all that counts. And if you can muster stepping back from that which the mind & body has suffered through its journey in the FoF, you will find an immense depth in your being that otherwise could not have been got: there is no fault on this Earth, yet, there is choice, there is doing, there is You and what is not You.
We do not yet have the ‘equipment’ to reconcile the actual entities of contradiction that we meet on earth, yet, we can ‘press’ on them and make choices that are not ‘first response’, H12 draining. Sometimes in order to save a beautiful building one must leave those dilapidated ones alone: spiritual demolition is rarely successful because it is aimed at the four lower centers, the effects themselves, not the causes, not the spirit…these are nearly untouchable by fellowship.
BTW…It is my opinion that it does not take 44 conscious beings to effect 2000+ humans on this planet… Just 1 can do it.
Osho had nearly 25,000 students and he was still milling around on earth at the time, collecting cars, watches and himself.
The idea of 44 conscious beings is perhaps simply another aspect of your teacher’s greed-feature. Having a pair of primary and secondary features is not a big deal in the light of consciousness. A word of advice to anyone aspiring to become a ‘teacher’, try not to make your features ‘conscious participants’, a monkey wearing a bomber jacket is not about to pilot you to Seattle…
So, take a close look at your pilot, make sure he’s not dropping banana peels, for often your falling is not ‘yours’ at all, rather, your identification with having slipped on someone else’s tramp feature coupled with personal ‘tastes’.
Love to you all.
May 11, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Dear Whalerider
Your writing style and personal expose touches me deeply everytime I read your blog contributions. Probably like many on this site, I often feel ‘boy I would love to share a coffee with this real human being’. To sit in the sunshine together and maybe not even exchange words.
I left after 20 years (recently) and yes, it took all of the that time to ‘wake-up’. Yes, I was one of ‘the many’ that did not want to know, that dennied the truth, and that was afraid to let go of a narrow set of beliefs and ‘live’. Well, it has been almost a year, and living just keeps getting better.
Life is everywhere, from the strangers dog that licks your hand at the local coffee shop, to the big round eyes watching you over dads shoulder as you follow behind him carrying your groceries, to the sweet smell of jasmine permeating the air in the neighborhood on your walk to the post office.
After 20+ years in the FoF – Adyashanti, John Wheeler , Tony Parsons and Sailor Bob Adamson and others pointed to the awareness that permeates everything, everything! To discover I am that, is something that cannot even be talked about- it would be reduced to the banal. And life is anything but banal. A mystery around every corner.
Just finishing a book by Catherine Ingram called Passionate Presence – Awakened Awareness and I cannot help but quote one small paragraph from her, which summarizes where I was for the 20 years in the FoF.
” Pretension comes in all guises. One dangerous area, for example, is in the form of spiritual teachers or gurus that have what in Zen is called ‘the stink of enlightenment’. These people who claim some kind of perfection for they claim an enlightenment that rationalizes their apparent imperfections, and they are often worshipped and codled as a result. They usually enjoy great riches and have servants for their every need. It seems the greater their pretentions, the larger their following, as so many people want to believe in something more exalted then themselves”.
Amen. I got out. The story is over. Life has too much ‘aliveness’ in it is to stay in the prison of a set system of ‘beliefs’. Good luck to those who need to defend theirs.
All the best.
Flying Free
May 11, 2007 at 10:19 pm
#452 A former student
“…I still must point out that it is the content of a post and the emotional value that really is important.”
Certainly content is important. Isn’t content what a post contains?
What terms would you use to describe someone who decides what really is or isn’t important for however many people are reading this blog?
For me, there have been a number of “intellectual turds” (when considered at first glance) that have proven quite fruitful upon investigtion.
Certainly you know by now it is how you think about things that is the matrix “emotional value” exists within. The whole fof sewer is plumbed by thought.
I have thrown out some wild shit with the caveat that i don’t know what i am blabbing about but it is stuff that has helped me think differently and perhaps it will do the same for someone else. Someone else did it and it helped me. Ain’t that the way it goes?
May 11, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Ames #1
Sounds like fun, thanks for putting the effort into this. Will you post what the response has been as you go along?
For my friend #8/439
I think this is the most disgusting story so far regarding the inhumanity of Burton and his supporters. Just completely repugnant and inhumane, really. What was even more chilling was that I had no surprise or incredulity, just sat shaking my head and thinking, “how low can you go?” The fact that it’s not shocking is what’s shocking to me.
RSVP to Kiran #8/427
I don’t know Kiran and really have little interest in his story or its basis in fact. However, your post is a bit insulting because although Kiran is known and posts under his name, you choose to hide behind your anonymity; YOU SCREAM WHEN IT’S NOT NECESSARY; and you issue veiled threats (“…YOU SIMPLY INTENDED TO DEFAME…”). Altogether, not a pretty picture. Can you at least avoid the screaming in the future? Thanks.
JoelF
May 11, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Robert created, with our help, a form for the transmission of a higher truth. I suspect it was a Truth that he was in direct contact with. I never created that form, I never saw that Truth, and I found it irksome, pretentious, and weird. Although, part of the form was the way that people relate to one another; this was magnificent! Never before had I seen this, and I loved it. I still do.
It is good, in potential.
Eventually I came into contact with Truth myself. Truth wanted to be actualised, but it found the forms I was immersed in innappropriate. Wrong sized shoes.
An internal conflict arose.
I had to listen to Truth, I had borrowed Roberts forms long enough, I needed my own. The work, my own.
Truth does not ask, it demands. There is no choice, and none needed.
The transition from a beautiful borrowed form, to a raw, but original form, is not always easy.
It hurts.
Once begun, there is no turning back.
Do not destroy your own foundation. Build upon it.
Always unfolding.
Being and becoming.
heresay.
May 11, 2007 at 11:29 pm
#419 Ask yourself
“Calling me lazy and deluded is your choice, but it sounds like what I wrote must have irritated you- not my intention.”
Sorry. Actually I read over my post later and it really did sound harsh. I was going to write an apology but you called me on it first. Can I take it back?
I think the environment yields what we bring to it. Reminds me of being a teenager living near a very large midwestern city and having a ‘special place’ I went to regularly -alone. It was a desolate piece of railroad track and sometimes a long freight train would lumber thru, slowly speeding up heading…somewhere. I don’t know why but the memories of that place are vivid and the most extraordinary emotions and thoughts and energies went thru me like waves. Nevertheless it was just some dirty old train tracks.
And speaking of train tracks there was an article in the Washington Post about the violinist Joshua Bell (world famous and truly amazing – 39years old) who put on a cap and casual clothes and performed for many hours in a subway station. He performed some of the most difficult and breathtaking pieces. Anyway, it was a long article but the jist was that most people just ignored him. Here’s a quote from the article:
“In his 2003 book, Timeless Beauty, British author John Lane wrote about the loss of the appreciation of beauty in the modern world. People still have the capacity to understand beauty, he said, but beauty has become irrelevant to them. In other words our priorities have changed. But if the surge of modern life so overpowers us that we can be oblivious to a world-class musician playing some of the best music ever written, then what else are we missing?”
Hey, ‘ask yourself’ are you going to the fof gathering? I’d like to meet you and apologize in person.
Best wishes.
#422 Elena,
Wow, fascinating post. A lot to digest.
Your comment: “Social orders express the state of mankind’s being and the most retrograde and pervasive idea ever presented by the Fellowship of Friends is that humanity is not in an ongoing upward and spiritual development. With that, it justifies all the horrors within and without itself.”
Reminds me of the current political energy in the US with the rise of the neoconservative movement. Much of the philosophical underpinnings of the neocon movement is right on with that statement. Maybe there’s something in the air.
May 11, 2007 at 11:50 pm
To “For My Friend” (8/439):
Your story of the rape of your friend’s nine-year-old daughter, and Robert’s silencing of your friend to protect the perpetrator, makes me completely sick. It’s one thing to seduce twenty-something young men; it’s quite another to cover up the rape of a nine-year-old girl. We’re talking nine years old, not seventeen.
If this story is true, it is beyond being a private matter between the parties involved. It is a criminal matter to be prosecuted by the State of California through the District Attorney’s office of Yuba County. Even if your friend remains under the sway of FoF mind manipulation and is reluctant to do anything, her daughter is a separate person who deserves the protection of the law. I would hope that someone could take action to put the sick fuck who did this where he belongs — not to mention those who participated in keeping it all quiet.
This is by far the most disgusting thing I have heard that relates to the FoF and Robert Burton, and that’s saying a lot. It leaves me with a heavy heart today.
May 12, 2007 at 12:04 am
To ‘RSVP’ 7#427 – You mis-quoted me, I was talking about an experience about another student called Roger who was dying that made me question RB’s conscience and feel uncomfortable, not Kiran’s story. As I said, his story REMINDED me of the Roger incident. Please refer back to my original post if you have any doubt (6#327).
Having said that, if Kiran was lying, it adds to my suspicions about him being a dubious character!
May 12, 2007 at 12:58 am
Bellow is an extract from The Case Of P. D. Ouspensky by Marie Seton (his secretary during the 1940s). The full essay can be read on http://www.Gurdjieff-Bibliography.com.
Ouspensky then asked me to go out to dinner with him…..When the coffee came, I asked: “Can you, or will you, explain how it is you could cancel a lecture at a few hours notice for the sake of this dinner? I don’t understand. And I am sorry to feel compelled to ask you; but do you lose your temper with people consciously, or because you have lost control of yourself? You do not lose your temper with me in this way…”
“They are such fools,” he said. “I’ve lost control of my temper.”
“But surely, if we are to try to control our negative emotions, we cannot learn
from you, if you can’t control yours,” I said.
Ouspensky answered bluntly: “I took over the leadership to save the System.
But I took it over before I had gained enough control over myself. I was not ready. I have lost control over myself. It is a long time since I could control my state of mind.”
“Will you not try to gain control over your temper, for everybody thinks you are
testing them when you fly at them,” I said, for it never entered my head that Peter Ouspensky was not speaking the truth.
“They are fools!” he said contemptuously.
“But I really feel I have learned something from the System,” I said.
“Then you are the only one who ever has!” said Ouspensky.
“I have really tried.” I said, “tried for myself.”
“The others are deluding themselves. They have never gained anything,” Ouspensky said.
For some strange reason I was not aghast at such revelations. I was not even
shocked. I was sorry because I did not feel for a moment that Ouspensky wanted to be in this predicament of disillusion and realisation that he had tried to become a guru when he had not attained the resources in himself to keep control of himself.
“Why don’t you give up the lectures and try to gain control of yourself again?” I
asked.
“The System has become a profession with me,” Ouspensky answered……“I have become dependent on the comfort, the luxury. I can’t give it up.”
No one was ever kinder to me in a human sense than P. D. Ouspensky. Fond he was of me, and honest with me, too; but he was prepared for me to continue doing what I had been doing, even though I knew he had lost his way. Evidently he could not feel at the time that he was wronging his followers by continuing his role of guru though convinced—if what he said was true—that no one was deriving any benefit from it.
May 12, 2007 at 2:28 am
to Joseph G.1976-2007
I must have known you because I also worked on clearing land with chain saws and worked at the lodge in the evenings.I agree with you about how the young men who spent time with Robert were treated and how they acted.
May 12, 2007 at 2:30 am
Dear Exlax and others.
Please I hope, Exlax that you are RIGHT. The worse for you said MR OUSPENSKY.
I hope that Whale rider is just fake.
I hope that you are not in the FOF, because I do not see any external consideration but…
I might be blind and been wrong before.
I hope that al these letters are fake and that Robert was not send away by Alex Horn because he could not keep the exercise of not chasing men.
I hope he did not seduce all these depended young men.
I hope he (RB) himself is not dependent on company, sex, power and that he is an enlightenment being and an angel, oooh… I do hope.
And Exlax one thing my grandmother said: Some things are better left unsaid. So if you do not have anything else to say…do not do it here please.
I am so sorry for you, you are part of my world and I love you…Pfff that was hard.
May 12, 2007 at 4:26 am
WhaleRider, I am deeply regretful for the abuse you have suffered. I commend the strength and conviction it took to endure that situation. YET, you harnessed and used that same courage, strength, and conviction to get yourself the hell out of there! To those still sitting on that fence, be inspired.
I was in the FoF 1974-1990 and had NO idea that these crimes were occurring. I used to wonder though. Although my path seldom crossed with RB’s “boys”, and I don’t recall really knowing any of those who lived with him, occasionally I’d ask an “older student” if they knew whether Robert was still celibate. Of course, the inevitable assurances were that he was. From time to time I would wonder to myself and question the strange energy that circulated around the entire Academy scene, yet I continued to embrace the commonly held paradigm/reality … overlooking my own knowing! My own intuition! My own common sense!
I believed Robert when he said he was celibate AND conscious. And what an incredibly successful deceit!!! It has been amazingly maintained over the years – just phenomenal! To have ever “believed” any of it seems spectacularly naive. Even now, the lie continues! It continues, as crimes of such nature do, held up and supported by any combination of desperation, fear, ignorance, denial, and complicity.
Irony: When I first joined the FoF one of the important features we were taught about was a feature called “no shame”. That concept disappeared pretty fast. To me, now, Robert and those who support him have no shame.
I look at my son, who is 23, and cannot imagine something like this happening to him. We think we are so wise, so knowing at that age. Instead we are very impressionable, still becoming aware of the dynamics of the world around us, still learning how to protect and take care of ourselves. Better thank that king of clubs too, we need it! How many would have kept out of harm’s way if they had just listened to their king of clubs?
In the years since leaving, I periodically need to digest different experiences I had in the FoF, both small and large scale. Mostly, it just seemed like a strange womb I had birthed out of … some past lifetime that I would never go back to. Then, after first reading this blog in March, it came as a completely unexpected surprise to be struck with an exploding awareness of the deep connections I have not only with past friends, but even with those who joined after my departure.
It is partly through these silent, invisible connections that the light of truth can illuminate the path for those who follow.
And yes, “the attitude is gratitude.” [DK]
Hello Joel, it’s a pleasure to see you here. I appreciated the lack of pretension in relaying your story about the encounter with RB at that restaurant. Very honest. I think it would be so strange to have that happen. I remember that energy, of those groups of boys and RB … unsavory. If it were to have an odor, it would be slightly rotten.
KathleenW, hello to you. Good to hear you after so many years; I hope all is well.
Bruce, thank you many times over for the direct truth-telling. I used to see an unhappiness and anger back when, so long ago. Now I understand. By the way, my husband was delighted when you wrote him.
Cathie, hello to you, too, and thanks for your balanced and thoughtful entries.
GaryW, hello. I do remember fondly our time on that beautiful knoll in La Selva Beach. Our best wishes.
Sandra, hello and I agree about the pain body concept from Tolle. One of the most powerful pieces of knowledge I have heard! It works for me.
Thanks again to our host.
In Gratitude to all!
May 12, 2007 at 4:40 am
Dear Anonymous,
You Said: 9/5,
“8/435 Rabbi Burns, the leading expert on awakening, forgets 2 simple but important truths:
Consciousness has degrees.
There is no permanent anything.”
This means that consciousness won’t always have degrees. What’s your point exactly ?
Or perhaps when you said it has degrees, you meant a sort of impermanent Bachelors, Masters and Phd?
Far out man! here’s proof the universe is intelligent – consciousness has degrees!
Could you take some more Ouspensky truth serum and get back to us, I think you’re onto something.
Love,
Ryan
May 12, 2007 at 4:50 am
I have no way of knowing if Kiran’s story about being approached on his “deathbed” by Abraham Goldman is true. When I read it, it didn’t seem that far-fetched, based on other stories that have been told about Robert’s contacts–often through an intermediary–with some dying students over the years, at least one of which (the Sharole Mannering cameo reclamation) is well documented.
I don’t know Kiran personally, but I did know Robert Burton and Abraham Goldman. I wasn’t surprised by Kiran’s story, as it didn’t seem uncharacteristic of either Robert or Abraham.
RSVP’s screaming post raises some interesting questions. It admits that Goldman did visit Kiran in the hospital in Cairo, since it asserts that “at all times” during the visit, Kiran’s family members were there.
Why did Goldman visit Kiran in the hospital? It seems reasonable to suppose that he was there in some official Fellowship capacity. Perhaps he was concerned about the possible liability of the Fellowship for the injuries sustained by Kiran and the deaths of his wife and friend. If I recall correctly, Kiran and the two women were traveling at Robert’s request, to investigate opening a center in Egypt.
This is quite speculative on my part, but what if Goldman was there to obtain a release of liability from Kiran, or failing that, to obtain a beneficial interest for the Fellowship in Kiran’s estate, should he die as a result of his injuries? It seems entirely plausible to me.
Then again, this is a situation loaded with “plausible deniability” on the part of Goldman and the FOF. It really comes down to Kiran’s word vs. Goldman’s. Tough call. Kiran was nearly comatose, undoubtedly heavily drugged. Who knows what happened, or what he thought happened? On the other hand, Goldman is a lawyer. Enough said.
As was the case with lawsuits filed against it in the past, the Fellowship’s defensive strategy is based on unequivocal denial, coupled with intimidation. We are seeing more of the same here.
May 12, 2007 at 8:00 am
Unianimo (#8-16)
Yes, the medium of the FOF was third force—very weak, hence “inefficient”. No matter how strong the first force, it ‘attracts’ an exactly sufficient second force in this situation. The imbalance, perceived as inefficiency (lack of results proportional to the effort of the student), comes from insufficient third force. If this is true. and Siddiq is unaware of third force, he would see ONLY the obstacles in his way. Whaddya think, Siddiq? Still willing to settle?
Kiran (#8-7)
Yes, it bears repeating, the Sheik works harder than we think to give us this blog.
(#7-1) “If you wish to make a donation to this blog, you can do so from the main page of the blog (ie. click home in the top right corner of the screen and look for the paypal donate button on the right). The donation would be in £GBP, not $US (currently the exchange rate is roughly 2$=1£).”
About the reunion at the North Columbia schoolhouse:
• Things are going well.
• Adult children of anyone in the Greater Fellowship are also welcome, whether or not they joined the FOF.
• This is not a Robert-bashing event, just folks having a great time!
Love to all,
Ames
May 12, 2007 at 8:04 am
“I skip unkind and negative posts. I miss consideration and politeness in yours.”
“If you were in the fellowship, you did not got the teachings of how to be considered…”
“I hope that you are not in the FOF, because I do not see any external consideration but…”
Hey, Another Name, you’re really identified with this considering crap aren’t you?
I say what I think and try not to be swayed by cheap emotion. Its the American way.
May 12, 2007 at 9:29 am
Re; RitaP #2, RabbiBurns #10, YesriBaba #12, #14, DonJuan #22, Skeptical #19, -responses to #439’s charges
It’s disappointing & distressing to see how quickly you rush to judgement in the court of the Blog without questioning or waiting to hear more about the incident & asking for ‘other opinions’. And, somehow, some of you immediately sieze this opportunity to attack your favourite target – Robert Burton.
I’m the last person on earth to stand by his excessess, his depraved behaviour, his exploitation & by the delusional parts of his teachings- past & present; but this quick use of this incident to bedevil him without looking into the facts based only on one post is to me very disturbing. I’m reminded of lynching sentiments.
I am also unhappy to spend time on this, but I feel compelled to do so. Do not let gross distortions & gut reactions discredit & cheapen this otherwise useful, healhty blog.
(And particularly distasteful is DonJuan’s rush to judgement words in #22 ” cover up the rape of a nine year old girl”).
Here is another unbiosed point of view & facts:
I knew about this incident then from those involved and asked for more information now.
#439 wrote: ” he was an RB boy “.
-no he was not. He was on a religious visa at the time.
#439: “she was not planning to marry this guy”.
– she wasn’t that sure but she had been married before, a few steady boyfriends before and after. When she returned from the ‘other country’ she returned happily to the same person.
#439: “being a good student and a passive type”.
-she was a ‘good student’ in the past (less so now), but she is not passive nor docile: she is active, mercurial, self centered, self serving, manipulative, verbouse, even overbearing at times.
#439: “after a Margarita dinner with the teacher he goes to her 9 years old daughter’s bedroom”.
-they both returned equally very drunk that night, he apparently entered the child’s bedroom & maybe touched her. The girl started shouting. He claimed she misunderstood and the lady immediately called the police. They used to argue much, qaurrel a lot & scream. Maybe the girl was stressed as a result of the tension in the house and she reacted to something somewhat hysterically.
After the incident the lady said to her closest friends that she actually doesn’t know what happened.
In an incident involving her former husband (a very sweet person who would not hurt a fly) after a loud argument she called the police claiming physical abuse though he didn’t touch her; he was taken away & the fellowship had to pay the bail for him. The charges were dropped because the complaint was baseless.
She left the country because she wanted to leave & she returned because she wanted to return.
#439: “she came out of this with a big trauma”.
– If you only knew her…not even close. She was the same old flirtious, attractive, manipulative, partying, teasing, self centered old self.
#439:”the family could not function anymore”.
– the family situation was dysfunctional to bagin with, before & after, with former husband & boyfriends, frequent change of countries & residences.
And while she was married & living with boyfriends she continued to flirt, behave in a suggestive manner. In parties after a few drinks she could french kiss serially a few men including yours truely. In another party in which I was present her flirting almost brought two of her fans/suitors to blows.
She is not a person to easily succumb to pressure and do something that goes against her interests.
All the above said is not intended to condemn her, but to remind you that there may be another side to the story.
May 12, 2007 at 10:35 am
Ames,
thank you for your reply. Allow me some more thoughts on this. You write:
“most third line was developing the FOF property and possessions, most second line was just with other students”.
To be clear, Ouspensky defines the three lines as 1) taking, receiving, working on and for oneself. 2) giving and taking, working with others. 3) taking responsibility for the whole, giving. Would you say that 2nd line is possible with others that don’t have the same first line aim? Remember, the idea is that 2nd line helps the first line to continue. My basic question is, do you think that the 3 lines are a temporary tool that can be laid aside after we have understood and taken into our being the principles and laws related to them, or do we need them permanently, in some form, in order to keep evolving? For example, one way I can see 3 lines working outside of a community is on the smaller scale of a (spiritual) marriage.
Anyone else on this?
May 12, 2007 at 12:08 pm
#5 anonymous
Consciousness is primordial and permanent.
There are degrees of delusion which keep us from this realization.
May 12, 2007 at 12:33 pm
Dear Aline and Alexandre,
Thank you for your letter, so honest and intelligently written. I have great memories of you from the time when Ivan and I stayed at your place in Paris, so much fun and great conversations we had! Thank you and best wishes to you both.
I have a personal note (can I use the blog as a message board for once, Sheik?)
Last summer when I was away to Russia, there was an auction at the Teaching house in London where all the stuff which was kept in the attic was sold. Among it were my 6 boxes of (mostly) books and some personal belongings. I wasn’t notified about the event, so when I came back I discovered that all was gone. Since I lost by far more than that in the last few years, I decided not to count the losses and just forget about it.
However, a couple of days ago my friend reminded me of a couple of things which I would love to have back. There are 2 little picture frames, one in silver, another in gold, encrusted with small diamonds and hand made enamels, both in Faberge style. When I remembered that I had them, I was sorry to loose them, as they are a present from my dear friend from St. Petersburg, who is a jeweller and made them as a present for me. I would like to have them back and I would pay the price that was paid for them at the auction.
If you know that you have any of my other things, I would buy them back as well. There were some beautifully illustrated Folio society books which I would gladly buy back. I assume that my small archive of personal letters and photographs is gone, but if not, can I have that back too?
Thank you.
May 12, 2007 at 5:31 pm
#32, Half Life – you must be writing about a different person. She is my friend and I know her for years! She is not mercurial. you must be describing some one else… She is not flirtatious! And never been like this to my knowledge – she is not that kind of girl… You are definitely talking about someone else. And if you’re talking about my friend – you are a liar and are trying to deliberately mix her with dirt.
I heard the story first hand, right after it happened, and again later, and this is all true. Obviously, you present here some of your assumptions, which are not correct. (May be the jerk-molester is your friend?)
You are doing exactly what all of you people without conscience did and keep doing – defend a molester and blame the mother. “He was innocent! And she sucks!”
Do you need more details??? Of what exactly happened? May be let’s get the girl to tell what happened?
Your points are weak. Besides – what about RB’s loving comment, what about Linda’s call about “the will of the teacher” not to divorce the jerk for his green card? What about it? No comment from you.
All you did in your posting is tried to cover my friend with dirt. “Another side of the story”. Nice going. It realy makes sense now.
(Besides, the guy was an RB boy… Just not a permanent academy-based one. He was more like a whore-on-call type).
May 12, 2007 at 5:33 pm
Re Half Life’s response (#32) to #439. Thanks for setting down the other side of this story. Like Kiran’s Abraham encounter, we’ll no doubt never know the precise truth. But regardless of whether one or other of the main characters behaved badly, we can be sure that the FOF’s manipulative response is yet another proof of its deeply flawed nature. The FOF “culture” is rotten from the top down.
May 12, 2007 at 6:04 pm
To us all,
Gurdjieff lost “it”. Ouspensky trying to “save the system” lost it. Alex Horn lost it. Robert Burton seems to be showing he lost it…
When I started doubting the validity of the School for myself, I did not know I would have to reconsider his predecessors as well.
I was so “in Love” with the 4th Way!
Much gratitude.
May 12, 2007 at 6:39 pm
to #4 Old Dog re: my post #8/429.
Actually, my father was a petty, verbally abusive, narcissistic man much like you sound yourself. Which is probably why I ended up looking for love in the FOF.
When I was Shelley F. I completed a four year degree in nursing from NYU in two years. I was also working as RBs point person in New York arranging hotels, dinners and purchasing fine art from 1976 to 1981. I also worked as an actress on various commercials and soap operas as well as being the private home nurse for an actress friend named Virginia Vestoff who was dying of cancer at the time.(IMDB her name and you can confirm this.)
In fact, at that time I had a audition for a bank commercial where I had to act as if I’d just heard angels. At the audition I did what we used to do in the FOF when there was a mutually shared synchronicity and… lo and behold, I got the job!
In addition to that, I was the lease holder on both NYC townhouses and so was responsible for the housing of almost 20 people. And I attended the requisite two meetings a week where, probably because I was a ‘harpy’ I was not allowed to speak too much even though I was one of the people in the center who spent the most time with RB.
Around that time (1980) I also survived an armed robbery in the teaching house on 92nd Street and had a gun held at my head for half an hour by two young drug addicts. (You can ask JoelF, Sandra C. and Miles about this.)
So,Barking Old Dog, you can take your l..p d..k and shove it!
May 12, 2007 at 6:44 pm
Post 427. ABRAHAM WAS THERE…. Why was the FOF lawyer who is NOT a friend of Kiran at ‘Kiran’s death bed?’
Go figure!
May 12, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Dear Exlax,
Let me see if I get this straight. So you are saying consideration
and politeness are cheap emotions? Or at least way below the value
of following the “American way” and “saying what you think”.
Or…, are you saying that you happen to be brought up as an American,
so therefore you happen to think that everything that stands in the way
of “saying what you think” you consider a “cheap emotion”?
And are you yourself thinking “considering is crap” or do you believe
it is the “American way” to think that way?
You seem to have a high opinion of the “American way” and I dare say,
you seem proud to be one yourself.(Is not that called identification?)
God bless America.
I am sorry for you and I love, love love love you, pff still difficult although it gets easier.
May 12, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Hello Everyone,
I wanted to inform anyone that follows the monikers that while travelling recently, I used a computer that was not mine and decided to change my screen name to “ask yourself” but I’m back to “Is it possible”
Regarding the statement made by the woman who’s daughter had an incident with the boyfriend/husband and the statement made by half life (#32) regarding the possibility of this story being somewhat distorted; it would be useful to get more facts on the story from other sources. I did notice one of the bloggers blow this up to a full-scale rape and that was not what the mother had claimed. If inappropriate or criminal behavior took place then this story is indeed quite sad and has some bearing on the character of the school and Linda and Robert, et al., but it’s possible that the details were distorted and I for one would like further proof that the incident took place as described. Are there police reports?
We need to keep the level of accuracy as high as possible with ALL THE ENTRIES (sorry for yelling). Blogs have a way of creating some interesting emotional momentum.
May 12, 2007 at 7:35 pm
This post is directed at current Fellowship students who write in this blog —
I mean those who jump all over anyone who has a story to tell.
You might believe that you’ve getting in the last word, but the last word is still
a long way coming. The history of the FOF is going to be written by the
children of the students, particularly those who grew up in Oregon House.
Something is happening in the world right now, and it’s not limited to
the Fellowship.
Just as in the Catholic Church, where parents sent their children in good
faith, only to have them abused by priests, the suffering has finally
emerged after so many years. The efforts of the hierarchy to cover up
what happened in the end, just weren’t sufficient. The ironically
named Cardinal Law, who spent 30-plus years hiding the facts
now is hiding himself in Vatican City.
What finally shook this ancient institution was the power of the
children’s voices.
The Hare Krishnas were also sued by their followers’ children.
Now the Protestant churches are facing the same sort of revelations.
It’s something they have in common with the FOF.
In post number 32, there was mention of someone who was “sweet
and would not hurt a fly.” Well. When that person got out of jail,
Robert brought him to his side to make it clear that all was forgiven.
Many of us were horrified, though we didn’t do or say anything
about it. That person has a history of being an abuser, and
he casually ruined another man’s reputation — ironically,
by accusing this other man of sexual abuse — just because
it got him something he wanted.
None of this mattered because he was one of Robert’s wonder boys.
If a man sleeps with Robert, he can get away with anything.
It doesn’t matter how badly he behaves, how many orgies he
attends, how many girlfriends he has. He sleeps with Robert,
so that makes him an angel.
My message to current Fellowship students is this: People have
stories to tell. You would be better off just letting the stories come
out. I never wanted to write in this blog at all. What provoked me
to do so was the assaults of FOF students. So much for not
expressing negative emotions, by the way!
Just keep in mind that your negativity helps those who might otherwise
be silent to finally tell their stories.
A belated reply to Siddiq’s post to me: I should have said “mothers
and mothers-in-law” urged men to become Robert’s lovers. Also,
you say that children aren’t in any danger. Can you explain why,
during the years I lived in Oregon House with my children, that no
one felt the need to tell me or anyone else I knew that there was a
registered sex offender among the students I knew?
To Whale Rider: Thank you for your posts, especially your first one.
What you described was so shocking and foreign to me, that I could
never have imagined Robert behaved that way. I admire your
courage, and believe you’ve given a voice to all those who’ve
been hurt by Robert in this way. I wish that the admiration and
compassion I feel could somehow help you to heal. I’m so sorry,
and I love you.
May 12, 2007 at 7:58 pm
No Person (8/442)
You don’t like the word “awakening,” preferring to use “realization.” But intellectual realization doesn’t cut it, IMO. True, there is no destination, nothing to “become,” but the undeniable fact is that there is massive avoidance of the Now going on, and this avoidance does not (except in very rare cases) disappear just like that, upon reading a book or a blog or listening to some teacher’s words. More often, what happens in cases of so-called realization is akin to that of the fox in Aesop’s famous fable, who calls the grapes (awakening) sour because he cannot reach them. To make himself feel more secure in his chosen nihilistic non-path the born-again fox will tell others, in fervent, proselytizing terms, that practice is a complete waste of time, that you are already free, etc. This is only a partial truth. Your guru’s guru, Nisargadatta, understood this.
If one wants to abandon the term “self-remembering” because of bad associations with FOF, that’s fine, but the underlying truth that George Gurdjieff pointed to should not be casually tossed aside, IMO. Awareness is already present, yes, but let’s be aware of that awareness, always and everywhere! Otherwise we are not really living. That may sound like a lot of “doing,” or “work,” which to some nondualists is a very politically incorrect concept. But why think of it as “work”? I prefer to think of it is a “vacation” from the usual nonsense.
Here are some quotes by Nisargadatta’s book I Am That which you may find of interest:
“Establish yourself firmly in the awareness of ‘I am.’ This is the beginning and also the end of all endeavour.”
“Be aware of being conscious and seek the source of consciousness.”
“But you must be energetic when you take to meditation. It is definitely not a part-time occupation.”
See ya,
Mark H.
Seattle
FOF member 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
May 12, 2007 at 8:15 pm
re: 34/Yesri Baba:
>Consciousness is primordial and permanent.
This is a theory that cannot be verified.
>There are degrees of delusion which keep us from this realization.
This is a theory about your first theory.
May 12, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Re Trademarker’s questions:
Questions to the FOF
>Why is the Fellowship of Friends using the name Gurdjieff-Ouspensky-Centers as a marketing label?
FoF is not ‘marketing’ anything. As to why it uses the names of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, it uses them because the FoF is in the tradition of the Fourth Way. Both G and O taught that the Fourth Way revolves around being present — and that has been the consistent axis of students in FoF since it began. No change there, in spite of some people’s confusion when forms change. Gurdjieff changed forms repeatedly. Ditto FoF.
Why are you bookmarking books of Gurdjieff that you never read?
We’ve read Gurdjieff’s books, possibly even more often and more deeply than many on this blog.
Why are you placing ads in the name of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky in the internet, even though you claim to have surpassed the Fourth Way and created a new one?
There is no claim to ‘surpass’ the Fourth Way and certainly no claim to have created a new way. FoF is the Fourth Way as it now is.
Why are you riding someone else’s train and trying to hitchhike on the credibility and strength of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky?
Isn’t that – Tramp?
FoF is not on someone else’s train. It also taught you everything you know about Tramp, and more that you have probably forgotten.
May 12, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Reply to Shaman (#9-33)
Yes, I would say that second line is possible with those who don’t have the same first line aim—provided one doesn’t define the boundaries too exactly. That is, I assume that those doing ‘first and second line’ actually have a ‘first line’ aim that is similar enough to find common ground, similar meaning sufficient commonality in culture, language, other conditioning, and experience. Burton makes it quite clear that there is nothing current outside the FOF that is useful for second line; for example, the ‘choices’ recently given to students who studied with outsiders, “my way or the highway” (truly Burton is a ‘jealous god’—“thou shalt have no other gods than me”).
After leaving, I found that ‘satsang’, holy discourse, works wonderfully to bring wisdom from the Ideal worlds to the present; “whenever two or more are gathered in my Name, there shall “I” be”. I’d call that ‘second line’; what could be more inspiring and energizing than to become more aware of the Godhead within one in the company of others Realizing the same?
Third line in the FOF was: work to benefit and further the aims of the school. Again, too narrow for me, and not available literally after leaving anyway; service to the larger community is not only the equivalent, but far healthier—for me.
So, as I’ve mentioned before, my experience is that the three lines, in some form, are natural and necessary for balance, and for ‘evolution’ if you’re into that. Permanently? I can’t know. Lastly, I don’t grok what you mean by ‘spiritual marriage’.
Warm regards,
Ames
May 12, 2007 at 11:02 pm
The current demographics of blog posters runs heavily to those who were big fish in the small toxic pond of the Fellowship 20 to 25 years ago. Possibly they are reliving the days of glory when they had new and impressionable members to instruct–rather like the captain of the football team who peaked at 18 and goes to class reunions to revel in past glories.
I remember when I was a new student and
Sandra C. a traveling teacher to our center. I went to her in tears over the treatment I was receiving from older students who insisted I leave my family and move into the teaching house to support it. She brushed aside my concerns and asked caustically, “Don’t you ever remember yourself?”
I remember shortly after that being at the property and dining at a table hosted by Joel. I was bold enough to offer an angle on the topic he was presiding over. He fixed me with his famous deadpan stare, paused for effect, and said, “That proves that if you listen long enough you’ll hear just about anything.”
By that time I had learned to keep a low enough profile that I never drew the fire of corrosive wits like Bruce and others.
These people were excellent teachers, and I was a good learner. It wasn’t many years before I myself was a moderate-sized fish, directing some centers and visiting many others to calmly instruct eager new students who would come to me with their pain over human involvements. I remember one young man whose wife was extremely negative, to the extent of having thrown a cup of hot coffee on him as he was leaving for the meeting. “Why don’t you leave her?” I asked him impatiently, since I was fairly certain he understood basic school principles. He was ashamed, but nonetheless confessed, “Well, I love her.” He left not long after that, which was just as well since he obviously was not school material.
And I, in spite of definitely having been school material, have now also left. But I have retained the important lessons. I can be as cold and emotionally destructive as the best of them, and find myself untouched by such despised weaknesses as warm feelings or remorse toward people I hurt.
I am not sorry, and I do not love you.
May 12, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Elax101:
Hey Tony, lighten up a little. Your sooo cute when you are happy.
May 13, 2007 at 12:06 am
Alice in wonderlust, I know nothing about the neoconservative ideas and would think myself in a different political alignment but I’d enjoy looking at the similarities you mention more closely so if you would care to enlighten me a little more about where you find this similarity I would appreciate it. My e-mail is ludoteka@succeed.net if that seems a more appropriate venue.
To the Sheik,
Although I am not organizing this Fellowship Event that is being mentioned, surely many here would find you a very welcomed guest. If you needed a place to stay you would be welcomed to stay in my house. Just another form of gratitude if you would even wish to consider comming.
May 13, 2007 at 12:22 am
#32 Half-life
Thanks for that perspective. I am not going to respond to any more of these third person anectotal b.s. sessions anymore.
My original response was of irritation because it seemed everyone involved was being stupid, selfish, manipulative and co-dependent.
But now I see I was being stupid to think there was any way that what had happened was being accuratly conveyed.
May 13, 2007 at 1:07 am
I’ve been thinking of attending the gathering over Memorial Day Weekend. While there is a positive anticipation of seeing some of the people I knew in the FOF, there is also some uncomfortable feelings about such a gathering. While I enjoy a cool drink on a hot day, it occurred to me that it almost might be a relief and even possibly intriguing if the North Columbia Cultural Center did not allow any alcohol. It hasn’t been mentioned enough on this blog, but I think alcohol has been a factor in many situations taking place on the dark underbelly of the FOF. Inhibitions-releasing, conscience-numbing, appetite-enhancing, memory-fogging. Some is fun, is more, more fun? When we were members, we couldn’t smoke, we couldn’t use drugs, does anyone remember any exercises concerning drinking? Why is that? Try this thought on. What would it be like to do an event like this sober, or even under the self-controlled limit of only one or two glasses of wine for those who can’t imagine it.
Mainly, I’d be interested to hear how others have thought generally about the subject of alcohol and the FOF.
And thanks to the Sheik for general level-headed even-handedness.
May 13, 2007 at 2:19 am
To my friend 8/439
100% True story.The raper name is Maurizio.The student from Italy.At that time he was working in landscaping.He never smiled,never spoke and always looked upon the ground. People tried to avoid frictions with him because messing with him was messing with Burton.
For years Maurizio was daily beating up Gabriella,his previous wife before his new fraudulent marriage with T. (Gabriella is a very nice and always friendly Italian lady who now married to Japanese student )
And in the school where negative emotion were strictly forbidden people were ignoring that horrible behavior and never spoke about or even mentioned that.Many were aware of his permanent violence but all of them have feared Burton’s anger.Maurizio was a Burton’s lover.He never had his permanent “serving days” and usually was randomly called.
This story is one of the best revelation of Burton’s criminal essence.
Many people were praying to see this bustard staid in jail.Where most likely he would harshly and justly die from the same reason he got in there.
After 6 month of imprisonment in Yuba City jail Maurizio was returned to his landscaping octave like nothing happened.
But fate of the depressed abandoned mother and her traumatic daughter remained uncertain to this day.
Message to his former wife T.
Dear T. we all supporting you! Your action was absolutely right.You have acted like a real mother and normal human being.We also know that you were under heavy pressure from the FOF to leave the country before the judgement day.
You will see,the Justice will arrive and every one will get what had deserved.
With much support,
your friends
May 13, 2007 at 3:35 am
last post: 8/451
Moon food or Angel food?
I’ve never been a pall bearer before. My 96 year-old grandmother-in-law was only about 90 pounds when she died, yet the oak casket took six grown men to carry. You have to take baby steps, I was deathly afraid I’d drop my end, and I stepped on the back of the shoe of my cousin in-law in front of me. The service was typical for the bible belt, “Ye, thou I walk through the valley of death, I shall fear no evil“…etc. There were some touching stories of her early life on the farm here in Zionsville told by my uncle-in-law, the strip mall millionaire. One story he recounted was witnessing as a young boy how she would deal with the one or two feisty hens that would peck at him when he tried to gather their eggs in the morning. Each hen had a name, and once the offending hen had been identified, his mother would do the following: she’d go into the hen house, stand directly in front of the hen, look that hen right in the eye, and say sternly, “Sally Mae, do you want to be dinner tonight?” Why that hen would just stand right up, and she’d fetch that egg without any fuss at all. There where also stories of how she loved animals and almost until the day she died, she’d feed some from her back porch. There was a raccoon that lived up in a tree in her backyard, and each day around dusk she’d step out and call, “coon, coon, coon” in a sweet voice and down the raccoon would come for his dinner. She was a kind person, dearly loved and missed by many, especially that raccoon. Her presence was felt by all in the room as we sang “Swing Low, Sweet Chariot” at her request.
After the service we drove to the reception which was held at a converted church in town, of which there are many out here as one would expect. My mother-in-law attended Sunday school there. I was informed that the church had been converted into an art gallery with the works of ‘renowned’ artist, Nancy Noelle. I doubt any of you know her works, but when I entered the church, I nearly shit my pants. On every wall, and mind you this was a two-story church, were hung her paintings. OF ANGELS!!! Big angels, little angels, faces of angels, flying angels. Angels for all occasions. Almost everywhere you looked. Upstairs, downstairs. Floor to ceiling. Every wall, every surface, every nook had a painting. DEAR GOD, ANYTHING BUT ANGELS! I don’t know what I was expecting, but given all I have been going through lately, my emotional center would have felt more comfortable with Velvet Elvis’s or just frickin’ farmscapes. I had to tell myself, sometimes an angel is JUST AN ANGEL! Nancy also had a propensity for painting darling portraits of children. Angels and children… Hmmm… (My direct experience of angels doesn’t quite match with the idea of mixing the two, but let‘s just keep that perception between you and I, shall we?) Above the fireplace mantle in the cavernous front room was a large, eight foot tall painting of…an angel…that was the first one that she ever painted. There was a small sign nearby with a story claiming that “after this painting was finished, at night in the artist’s studio where this hung, voices could be heard.” Now do I believe her or was that just good marketing?
Later that evening after everyone else had gone to bed, blissfully exhausted from all the crying, I got to tune into my favorite left-wing channel, Link TV. There was a British Documentary about some tribal people in rural Afghanistan who were not very willing to accept western culture. Imagine that? The filmmakers arrived at a small mountainous village by the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, near where Gurdjieff supposedly traveled and Osama is theoretically in hiding. The tribe had never been filmed before and were naturally suspicious of the filmmaker’s intent. It would not be an easy decision, but at least the filmmakers weren’t Americans. For three whole days the jirga, or council of tribal elders met to discuss whether or not to speak with the westerners. Overhead, US Military jets and helicopters flew by hunting for the Taliban. Distant machine gunfire and intermittent explosions could be heard daily while the filmmakers awaited the council’s decision. After much debate, they agreed to speak and be filmed, due in part because they were told that it would be their chance to send a message to the entire world about their plight. The elders told stories of how they were lied to and mistreated by the Americans, and how their sons had been unjustly imprisoned for merely knowing the names of suspected insurgents in the area. The US Military commanders provided no information about whereabouts of their sons, and this was unbearably hard for the families. Normally their judicial system was communal, not hierarchical, and it had worked fine for them for hundreds, if not thousands of years. At the end of the interviews one elder, possibly in his late 60’s, addressed the camera directly and said this: (translated) “Forget about what we have told you. Forget about what you have seen. Please, for God’s sake, you Americans, please just lead a virtuous life!” And then to punctuate his message, he held his hands to his face and wept! He cried. He quickly removed his hands, one of which had part of a finger missing, and gave this really intense wordless look, with eyes that would pierce any armor, with a message that would transcend any language barrier. He spoke directly from his heart.
That is the sufi way.
At that moment I realized, after all the time I spent up close and personal with RB over several years, I never once saw him cry.
*****************************************
For Angel Aware: I read your post, and through my tears, felt you in that clear, unspeakable place in my heart! Thank you for being you.
For Flying Free: Thank you for your precious encouragement! It takes a real human being to recognize another.
My love back to all who feel mine.
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 13, 2007 at 4:33 am
#48 I’m sorry for you Abigail. Your post shows how destructive the FOF, in league with human nature, can really be. Most of us from the “old school glory days’ have reiterated our knowledge of what assholes we were, whether from an impetus of power or anger or vanity. Some of us are embittered also. Most see it and are dealing with it, with the help of observations like yours. But your last few sentences are very sad.
May 13, 2007 at 4:57 am
Anonymous #46: It is not possible to equate bobby with Gurdjieff. Bobby is a clever camel dealer unconsious of the camel’s bite.
Bobby changed form of HIS fof by pure imagination. Sadly, his oversexed homosexual activities is his camel’s bite.
May 13, 2007 at 5:11 am
#48 Abigail
I don’t think I knew you, but I felt sad when I read your post. You sound totally miserable and bitter. Yes, the pond was toxic, but you’re out of the pond now. Why do you hold on to the toxins?
Have you considered therapy? It seems like such a tragedy to spend your life being a victim of something that happened to you 20-25 years ago. You could choose to heal yourself. Help is available if you need it.
Just a thought.
May 13, 2007 at 5:18 am
Just for you, Dick, I am sorry and I love you.
Miss you, dude:(
May 13, 2007 at 5:36 am
To: if memory serves (52)
I did mention alcohol in one of my previous posts and am also
surprised that it hasn’t come up more frequently.
After every meeting, wine was served. I don’t think everyone
indulged too much, but I’d say that most enjoyed this ritual with
verve. It is an entirely acceptable drug in the Fellowship.
Many who I became close to over-indulged with me on a regular
basis. (So, yes, I’m including myself in this observation.)
Alcohol is a clear component in the entire equation. It allows one to tell the “truth”, softens perceptions, blurs vision,
heightens emotion, breeds dreamy thinking, allows one to
behave indiscreetly, exhausts the body and skews reality.
As we all know, alcohol is a potent drug. It is, obviously, the last substance on earth that encourages consciousness.
In my observation, many members could not resist over-indulgence. It seemed that it was such a relief to have a glass of wine after hearing “angles”. Drinking alcohol was an acceptable form of good old-fashioned fun that the Fellowship allowed unequivocally.
Wine numbs the Fellowship members.
May 13, 2007 at 6:00 am
In Reply to several Posts: An attempt to tie a few loose ends that may help this ‘blog’ blog along uphill.
In reference to Post #439 and following Posts #22/9, 12/9, 32/9.
I want this to bring some ‘breathing room’ to what seems to me a bias tennis match.
Games are fine so long as there’s no winner declared before the match begins. The FoF is expert at predictions, so long as Tomorrow stays out of the way.
________________________________________
I know them well… The mother, the two children (the girl has an older brother), the real-father of the children and M., the step-father or ‘subject of dispute in Post #439).
To begin I must say that I am, by no way, on one side or the other: events occur for many un-obvious reasons we cannot see, yet, this is not to say that I am trying to make this out to be a fairy tale, yet, if we were writers five hundred years ahead of the ‘plain facts’, it could be nonetheless an outline for one, for there are many lessons, undisclosed on this blog, that were born on that very odd night, for everyone within its ten mile radius, this most certainly goes for M.’s unmentioned two sisters, who, in of themselves grew tremendously through his incarceration.
Yes, incarceration… Not mentioned yet in this blog, unless I have missed a post, M. was given a year’s sentence in Yuba County jail… A sentence I am sure was shortened by A.G., though certainly not lessened to what might have been possible had it not been an FoF member. Yuba County authorities know the FoF’s carpet’s underside well and take these things into consideration.
So, a one year sentence is something that would not have occurred unless there was more than ‘simple overreaction drama’ occurring: there is a 40+ step procedure in bringing about a human being’s incarceration, it is a rigorous procedure, yet, even through that many steps there have been mistaken guilt proclaimed 10 to 15 years into someone’s sentence… Yet, this is not the case here. Something occurred, this is moot now…
I trust that it happened, whatever ‘it’ was: I do not want to be a spectator of such events merely for the sake of speculation and conversation, whenever we cheer and boo from the point of view of the bleachers, we are removing ourselves from the relativity of being on the court ourselves or having been before…
The rage of being sexually unlocked by a burglar is beyond the personal realm, it touches something spirituality or esoteric circles have yet to map out, the territory is there for many, though some do not have these areas to deal with and will not during this incarnation…
Please keep it honest my friends and make sure that if you’ve never torn down an engine and put it back together again successfully, then do not jump to conclusions that the ‘noise you here’ is coming from the engine just because its under the hood: the entire front suspension is also under the hood, including loose shocks and broken springs.
The ingredients of that particular event, i.e., the material in Post #439 were incredibly precise, the timing equally awe-like, so the book of our lives goes…
I perceived the daughter before and after, the mother as well, M., the real-father, the daughter’s brother, the sister’s of M., and M. I also recall that there was a core group of people in the FoF that went to visit him on a regular basis.
What I saw in all of these ‘portraits’ was some depth had been introduced upon their beings, what they do with it is not our business, I only send them the powerful wish that they create something profound from it… It is easy to follow the Old Testament God, “An eye for an eye.” (and I don’t mean RB’s version, ‘An ‘I’ for an ‘I’.) Humanity feeds on instinctive justice, yet, this is where we live, this planet is not some other, though we often dream it so. Atlantis will not rise my friends, though we will.
In many respects, such an event is always being paid for by the perpetrator, for it has revealed a level of contradiction, a piece of the pain body’s armor has been removed forever (time wise)…
What enters upon that portion that is no longer protected by being a ‘good actor at being a normal person’ (and no one is normal when pain body is revealed or compromised) is a mysterious affair, for by no means, is the revelation of the contradiction equal to how the vision is treated by either the ‘visionary’ or those who envision the vision’s descriptions. Even the church ‘spins’ the spiritual so to make it out of the reach of the regular guy, this insures that worship and hope do not achieve ‘holy reconciliation’.
One interesting aspect of the ‘whole affair’ as I sensed it, was that it gave RB a catharsis, albeit a non-genuine one, for I felt that he used it as a ‘symbol’ of what students should not do to him and accordingly treated M., after his release from jail, simply the same as he wished to be treated by his students. I know that M., (his conscience) knew he (and his play, act 5,678, scene 345)was being sponged for all it was ‘not’ worth to anyone but RB.
M.’s incarceration could have, if it was not for RB’s quick ‘draining of the lake so to spite the catching of no fish’, become interpreted as a form of payment by a fellow student for RB’s ‘Eye for an Eye.” contradictions. Yet, as so many solar-types can do, a dreamy ‘Return of the Prodigal Son’ was bequeathed upon the patriarchal third dimension, hence anyone who could not access the fourth dimensional side of this affair, saw it as such…
For me, just for my readers, I do not see it at all as some archaic reference point for worship of drama and the drama it correspondingly takes to replace the untransformed contradiction into an affirmation of ~ Identifying with the understanding that ‘yes’ there is a moral at the end of the story, so what, can you do it?
On and on, true personality re-writes simple tests of will and conscious-sense,
trying to come up with the ‘ideal test’ for the ‘ideal answer’, yet since both the answer and question are ‘ideals’ at opposite ends of the octave, the in between fails, that is, the teacher does not ask its students to take the tests, only to assist him in keeping his job, make the tests more worthy of your tomorrow-self, thus insuring our employment the day after and so on and on. Does the FoF have an ‘Off’ button anywhere? A good re-booting is needed.
_____________________________________
A few notes concerning all the hoop-la over Kiran’s Egypt-bed story.
For those who are attracted to ‘first-impressions’, I happen to like Die Hard 2,3,4 and so on. Some sequels are ‘downers’, others, like the Matrix, Lord of The Rings, Indiana Jones, The Mummy and Pirate’s of The Caribbean are exceptions, up’ers, for lack of a better word.
Try to give all those who are being sought after, by their circumstances, for their hearts, the benefit of the doubt, that is, the doubt that you know anything concerning that particular entity ‘in question by your mind activity’.
I have a special jar next to my computer notebook, similar to the one my grandmother had next to the bathroom sink for her false teeth, for my brain: I would advise all spiritual seekers to fashion one of these jars and use it before looking at a person.
No one is finished down here, Kiran, like all of us, is an exceptional sequel, still being edited, not in video stores yet…Try not to sell Die Hard 3 for Die Hard 6, real movie buffs know that if Mel Gibson does not know about it, then how could we?
By the short range of peripheral vision on this blog site, I would assume that not many people read it, because even some of the ‘real time’ players in Kiran’s play could log on anonymously and take care of business the ole fashioned way, earn it by being the horse’s mouth…
Pass the oats please.
_______________________________
H#$b and T@#%y, if separated from their personal stories, could si-do all this wonderment: so, whoever is curious, call them, though remember, to get an objective account of Kiran’s play at that time would be similar to getting a good deal on an air conditioner in Hell…
Yet, for me, it is still pain body hunger, hence the capital-lock button being pushed on the questioner’s keyboard for Kiran to see-see their point in mind. I truly cannot fathom the need for more ‘proof’…I mean, if Grandma’s cooking is no good, then it is highly unlikely it will get better at the stage of Grandmother-ship. To me, wanting a pain-refinement to an already dubious environment such as RB’s ‘being’, is a personal, pain appetite issue, it serves nothing practical, unless your collecting litigation material, then, his story would be of no good whatsoever because nothing that was attempted actually came to fruition, so far as the actual ‘legal’ signing over under a cognitive state of mental affairs goes.
When Kiran signed ‘certain documents’ it was under mental distress and is immediately annulled under all legal systems of contract law. This is moot, this cannot be argued in court when looking at his ‘beyond a reasonable doubt’ medical stance at the time of signature procurement.
Here’s the story…undramatized, in a nut shell.
Kiran was literally on his death bed, so to speak… this was the impression by all who had heard of his condition; there was at least a kind of 75% no/ 25% yes, he’ll make-it-feeling going around, particularly coupled alongside the reality of the two other deaths occurring alongside his injuries.
His company was spear headed by two very enthusiastic entrepreneurs, alongside about five or six other ‘students’, whose only income was working for this business.
There was allot of money flowing in and out of the business, it was, so to speak, a kind of trustworthy fledgling, rooted by Kiran’s solo creation of it and solo marketing of its application worldwide as a holistic ‘tool’.
At the time there was also allot of ‘new inventions’, new ‘plans’ in the works still largely unknown even by the entrepreneurs, the staff, only known by Kiran and his computer.
There was great concern that if he were to cease existing ‘here’, that these plans could become either lost, stolen, misplaced or perhaps withheld by his family or who ever the imaginary withholder could be.
A frenzy began to insure that his inventions and company did not fall into the hands of those who where not ‘spear heads’… this of course makes good business sense; after all, why accidentally leave your one billion dollar meteorite collection to your Grandfather’s garden club to make rings round their flower beds with?… It was the timing that seemed to be put under the scrutiny of various subjective conscience owing individuals: yet as I see it, it could not have happened differently under the imaginary time-line they were dealing within themselves, to keep in mind here that Kiran by no way was ever afforded the title of First Force: all this was being put upon his ‘imagined descent’ by the, relatively speaking, fearful householders.
So, there was two things happening here, neither could be treated with grace in a practical way, so it seems.
One, there was the ‘thought’ that he could go at any time. Two, there was the ‘thought’ that ‘they’ were not going anywhere else but here, any time soon.
Two very distinct time impressions, irreconcilable by normal means… so, willy nilly-ness was procured by the participants automatically.
Abraham happened to be in the right place at the wrong time; meaning that he gave his practical services to a tornado of criss-crossing interests and states of being.
Two of RB’s students had died, one injured, one ‘here’ possibly ‘there’. RB was, in some way ‘symbolically’ connected to this event’s responsibility, albeit in a very odd way of defining a circumstance as an event with an antagonist and protagonist;
this is a habit of pain body to find an ‘origin’ and to bring some sort of melancholic demonstrativeness down upon it. RB termed it “The most devastating shock the school has ever received.” (This may not be the actual quote, though at least 98%).
As I see it, the school received nothing from it, had they, Kiran would never have been permitted to be asked to leave the school, nor would a teacher (who presumably got something from the most devastating shock in his 35 year experience teaching) have jumped to hasty conclusions and ‘conscious judgments’ upon such an entity having gone through and still processing a very new way of existence. BTW, there is no such thing as a definitive conscious judgment of an un definitive subjective entity, this is a oxymoron par excellence.
Yes, documents were signed, whether it leaned to the business being turned over to H. & T. or the FoF? This is something I do not know for a fact, i.e., which way it leaned more. So much of the internal FoF ‘moral & dogma’ can be rightly interpreted as ‘peas’ one day and ‘soft green marbles’ the next… go figure. What I do know is that H. & T. had the reigns, by no means could I see A.G. waltzing in over the corporate authority of H. & T. declaring Kiran’s business the sole property of the FoF to do with whatever RB saw fit it something ‘final’ was to occur to Kiran’s physical condition.
What is more probable in a this miniature model of the declining Roman Empire, is that someone on the outer circle of ‘I know Robert loves me, but I don’t trust him and laugh behind his back-types’ said, “The Fellowship” tried to ….. And as usual did not know the in between stuff.
See, my readers, it would be splitting hairs to say that Kiran did not sign his business over to the FoF when signing it over to H. & T., everything in this alphabet soup is so jumbled…I’ll bet if you threw in a couple Japanese characters in this mix, no one would notice and eat the concoction none the wiser and they do.
H. and T. had allot of money invested in their half of the business… I will not dive into the pool of speculating their personal quests in taking a trip from California to Egypt so to see Kiran, how he was doing, etc.
What I do ‘know’ is that they were riding, perhaps unbeknown by some, on two distinctly different razor edges.
One was the essence-love for a fellow student in the arms of death, the ‘losses’ procured by the deaths of two incredibly beautiful people in their lives and the injury of a fourth close friend, not to mention a kind of ‘symbolic’ role they played in being bringers of positive energies from the other students wishing Kiran and Nora well.
The other ‘edge’ was practical business sensibilities and an instinctive urgency to insure their uninterrupted flow.
Now, all this would seem nitroglycerin enough without a third entity rising from the ashes to proclaim itself something the fourth way is not used to seeing, at least RB’s version the fourth way, that is ~
An individual rising from “The Most Devastating Shock the School Has Ever Received”, who possessed an ongoing individuality who was now ‘practically’ indifferent to RB’s pain body.
RB’s pain body became rather, let us say, lessened in worshipfulness in light of a circumstance that another student was transforming in the moment, this challenged RB’s pain body affirmation. One could write a book about this area: this is how the pain body protects itself from the possible loss of worshipers of pain, it encapsulates another pain body’s pain-experience in a wreath of meritorious affirmations, brewing their practical being into a sort of ‘perfume’, a sort of ‘They’re experience of pain is more since I have made it into something we all can wear as a reminder that the gods are ruthless in their ways, etc.’
In such an extreme narcissistic environment as ISIS, as John Wayne probably once said, “This town’s not big enough for the both of us”, ‘so take this jacket, oh, you don’t like it, bang, you loose.’
This is not to suggest Kiran was/is playing Narcissus #2: I’ll leave that to the Now to unfold.
See, it is not possible for pain body to give space and ear to anything that resembles its vibratory predicament. The predicament is a birthless-able womb…In there is trapped a thing that will not be released by any external action: though certainly, if a baby is kicking, oftentimes external music (asking Kiran to leave) will calm the kicking.
By no means is this a judgment of RB: it is simply my observation, its not ‘the truth’ or ‘the law’. The same thing happened to M., though in reverse, M.’s pain body happens to be one of the most dense and on the surface of all in the Oregon House student population, there are several more, at least 10-15 in various stages of lifestyle and becoming…
In M.’s case he was quickly identified, attracted to RB’s Saturnine pain body’s Power-feature ability to compliment its pain body’s passive-feature of being a Venusian: thus you have a Siamese-twin concoction for awhile, then it gets routine, is dropped and life goes on.
Some time’s the very ‘essence’ of chief feature is the only aspect that keeps pain bodies away from one another: in extreme cases like natural disasters or war, pain bodies are artificially ‘lifted’ to such a high vibratory level, that features drop, the sharing of this higher frequency becomes paramount for their physical bodies survival…
Hence the extreme and very successful ‘form’ of military boot camps in turning very egocentric & unique Rambo types into pain-brothers, not to forget the immensely underrated third force of ‘war’ or mortal conflict ahead of them, waiting, it is this hope of possible death by the defense of its opposite (innocence), that bonds such pain bodies in such extreme and actually wondrous ways.
For when reading war stories, one can perceive that these men and women often get closer to essential love through the irony of war than in ‘real life’, though from another point of view, this is because their’s in no intentional internal war…If the war was internal, i.e., intentional suffering for the sake of seeing the present self, physical war would be a joke on earth, a kind of mockery: yet, this is where ‘it’ is, whatever ‘it’ is.
Well, fellow readers, when the soul of things gets involved the formatory apparatus gets trampled, not to suggest that it ever looked like anything discernible before it turned its back to the stampede. I believe there is a great mystery called ‘continuance’, ‘progression’, that we often bypass in making words into sentences. The outcome is never wholly visible in this realm, otherwise prisons would be the obvious house of the greatest test for true-religion to pass with its so called ‘love’ and ‘truth’, yet 70% of all inmates return within 2-3 years of ‘freedom’… That’s because? Religion worships the pain-body: BTW there is a new Holocaust Museum for young Pain bodies ‘education’ available for tours and for those who are too short to see the ‘atrocious’ (yet) there are vision-blockades in the form of some sort of visor on the viewing glass.
Get rid of the prisons, war, unconscious competition, etc., then Jesus disappears, the identification with his struggling self, his too obvious suffering…Leaves humanity stuck with the responsibility to die for their own sins (internally), i.e., to transform oneself from the pain body interests to ‘something else’.
Religions would have to start all over again and like the FoF, they have far too much invested in Jesus by now than to go and do it themselves.
Love to you all.
May 13, 2007 at 6:31 am
We can do the innuendo
We can dance and sing
When its said and done we haven’t told you a thing
We all know that crap is king
Give us dirty laundry!
Kick em when they’re up
Kick em when they’re down
Kick em when they’re up
Kick em when they’re down
Dirty Laundry
Don Henley
Re: For My Friend pro and con
Something feels very wrong about all this. There are way too many versions of “what really happened” floating around. A touch becomes rape then all of a sudden we have something out of “To Kill A Mockingbird”.
This is a powerful medium and casual third party outings of people seems unfair.
We can’t be so hungry for blood to ignore that all that has been said about this is hearsay.
What about the high road, if we, here, don’t take it, who will?
Nothing has touched me more than revelations we have witnessed here. No matter how graphic or explicit something inside feels the truth, feels the pain. Personal, first hand, this what happened to me.
It is a very dangerous precedent to condemn and pass judgment on someone without any access to the truth. No matter how much smoke there is.
May 13, 2007 at 8:18 am
Hello Mark H.,
The quotes you posted are great. And thanks for your thoughts.
“Establish yourself firmly in the awareness of ‘I am.’ This is the beginning and also the end of all endeavour.” Mark, did you notice Nizargadatta said “the end of all endeavour”? It means the end, no more practice oreffort to do something – because it’s all done.
Nizargadatta speakes to people who are still looking or seeking. Because after you found or understood, or saw – it’s done. You don’t need Nizargadatta oe anyone. You’re home. (You’ve never departed from home).
When you realize ( or establish firmly) that awareness is really all there is, there is no “we” left in the picture who shoud be aware, or should do this or that. There is just awareness and that’s it . And this is truly an end to all endeavour.
Also, it tends to happen pretty radically, as was mentioned here by other friends – like an instant internal shift of some kind, and there is no way back to illusion. And no need to practice the answer again and again – you just know it in your heart so to speak. Just like a puzzle – once you know the answer – that’s it, the end of the puzzle, no need to ask yourself again and again. Think of solving a puzzle – it could be some struggle, but then it’s like a sudden revelation – and that’s it. This was my experience.
But in no way I suggest that it is a universal path of some kind. If practice and efforts work for you – then do it, what’s the problem! Whatever works. Do self-remembering, do sequence, meditate, do whatever moves you, whatever feels right, until it’s over.
The fox in the fable was disappointed and buffered his failure. This doesn’t quite relate to my life now – I am the happiest I ever was, satisfied, content. There is no sense of achievement or failure, there is just full life. But why prove it, right? No point.
By the way, I don’t have a guru. In fact my life is amazingly simple and “unspiritual” now.
May 13, 2007 at 8:32 am
>Why is the Fellowship of Friends using the name Gurdjieff-Ouspensky-Centers as a marketing label?
FoF is not ‘marketing’ anything.
=======
You must be kidding.
Didn’t you ever attend a center directors meeting where they had people who are marketing professionals leading brainstorming sessions on how to sell the school to new magnetic centers.
get real.
May 13, 2007 at 8:36 am
To Anonymous 8/46 in reponse to 7/425
Thank you for your answers, but why are you lying?
Why do you pretend that you study Gurdjieffs books in the FOF?
RB even claims never to have read them and you know that.
If you ever have the chance to be in a teaching that is in the Gurdjieff tradition, you will be very surprised how different that is compared to the FOF. And how diverse the approach to being present. But I know you can not, because it is not allowed by RB. Wouldn´t it make sense to profit from each other?
How come that not one person, who was a student of Gurdjieff or Ouspensky, or even a student of a student, acknowledges the FOF as a Fourth Way school?
The Fourth Way happens in life, not in the FOF. So the FOF can not be the Fourth Way as you claim.
Just ask yourself, what would the FOF be, if it would not use Gurdjieffs name in their ads?
Who would ever have joined the FOF if they were not attracted to Gurdjieff? That is the decoy the FOF lives on.
What do you think would Gurdjieff say about the FOF if he would visit it today?
Would he say, “Oh that is exactly what I was teaching and what I was tought, they just changed the form a bit”?
Would be nice to hear some answers from you.
May 13, 2007 at 9:16 am
#45 Anonymous
It is not a theory for some blogging here. You are correct, however, that it cannot be verified. When you find out why you will be one of the ones for which it is no longer a theory. (May that be soon)
That it remains a theory to some only verifies the second point.
May 13, 2007 at 10:31 am
#44 Mark H.
“Awakening”, “realization”, “actualization”, “self-remembering” and on and on… It is such a word game, but you know that. There have been a number of postings critical of the shallowness of current “non-dual” presentations. I was warned earlier that I appeared to be succumbing to the “dark side” of the “non-dual”.
Way back in the fof I never understood the quote from Rilke: “To even to begin to express one Word is so difficult” (or something to that effect) but i do now.
Thank you for the post. It says clearly what needed to be said but it can’t be assumed that it is not already understood by who it was directed to. In any case the “nihilistic fox” will not be endured by it (or should I say I?) for very long.
“Self-remembering”, “Love” words so profound one would wish them on ones worst enemy. It is a difficult game but it is the only game in town.
May 13, 2007 at 3:54 pm
Laughing Love #59: If (an old angle stated that all sentences begining with IF were lies). If “I” were to intrepret Unoanimo my being released by G. Haven probably had some dark underpinings. But, it was WINE that did the toppling. Had I joined FOF in the 80’s I probably would been promoted to the INNER CIRCLE.
“If” I remember correctly the Impression octave was introduced because the zeitgeist of the times was tramp.
Keep your “I” out for the tramp features at the party.
May 13, 2007 at 4:11 pm
What was a pretty good discussion on page 8 is now descended to wild accusations.
Subjective interpretations of second-hand hearsay abound. Not knowing any facts for sure and having observed nothing—let’s scream rape…and of course LT and RB are to blame.
Not being involved in this incident in any way, RB is somehow to blame for serving margaritas and for not kicking out a student from the school, or sending the russian mob to take some action–get real folks. Are you brainless as well as spineless?
And there is no need for a fair trial, after all he has been convicted by the idiots on this blog already, not just him but by association RB and others too.
And then Kiran was asked for an explanation—seems reasonable to me considering his extreme and implausible accusations. But there is a lot of noise from idiots like Joel F requesting that no one USES CAPITAL LETTERS TO ATTRACT ATTENTION.
The only answer from the man in white and his one person entourage so far is silence. Wait and see? No, we dont care about the real facts. Hey, since it seems that it could have been true, because it does not surprise us, we dont need the real facts, right?
A little dose of thinking before writing as if something is the reality would not hurt some of us on this blog.
May 13, 2007 at 6:18 pm
#68 Look Both Ways: “A little dose of thinking before writing as if something is the reality would not hurt some of us on this blog.”
Please share with us your infallible touchstone for determining what is “the reality” in any personal story presented on this blog.
Thank you. 🙂
This blog is not a court. There is no judge, no evidence, no sentencing. We are just people telling stories. Everyone is free to draw their own conclusions. If you are concerned that the “wrong” conclusions are being drawn because all the “facts” are not in evidence, you may be trying to “buffer” what is being rather strongly suggested by all the stories here. Something is very rotten in the state of Isis.
As for Kiran’s docu-drama, unoanimo’s post #60 was interesting. Unoanimo seems to have a ringside seat. As Butch said to Sundance, “Who IS that guy???” And is he coming to the party?
[It’s perhaps significant that the reunion party is being held at the site of a long-running and popular Storytelling Festival. There will be an open mike on hand.] 😉
May 13, 2007 at 6:36 pm
64/: Trademarker:
>The Fourth Way happens in life, not in the FOF. So the FOF can not be the Fourth Way as you claim.
FoF is ‘in life’ and the majority of students work ‘in life’. Didn’t you notice? Maybe you should join and check it out.
May 13, 2007 at 6:43 pm
63: Moon Angel:
We can agree to differ over the meaning of the work ‘marketing’. From your point of view everyone from Buddha, Zoroaster, Jesus, etc, on was ‘marketing’ their teaching when they tried to reach magnetic centres. OK. It’s not a word I would use, but this is part of the ‘marketisation of discourse’ in the time we live in.
May 13, 2007 at 7:34 pm
Oh, hi Anonymous. You strangely remind me of so many I have met here before. No, I am not accusing you of being the same person as them, but you carry the same demeanour.
In the last round of the on-going dicussion I tried to explain my current belief on how any belief system shapes our perception and determines how we view reality. This time around, I would like to point out another thing.
I find that it is incredibly difficult to fully grasp what other people mean by what they say or write. Sometimes you have to borrow the lens through which they view reality in order to understand what their words mean to them. Certain behaviours make this understanding impossible, particularly looking for a counter-argument straight away without taking the time to properly consider what the other person meant.
A lot of people here don’t really try hard to understand what’s being said. Instead they look for a way to attack or prove untrue what they have just read from someone else. Yes, Anonymous (and so many others on all sides of the fence), it is very simple to write a short reply to everyone on the blog and point out that there is a different way (a different angle) of looking at any issue. It doesn’t do much for you personal understanding though.
Instead, if you truly want to prove your worth to yourself and to us, take a minute to understand what other people write, try to view what’s being said in a non-judgamental manner, withour preconceptions and without looking for counter-arguments. Don’t start writing as soon as you’re finished with the reading. Sit still and observe, be aware.
May 13, 2007 at 7:36 pm
Oh, I forgot. I love you guys. I have gained a lot over the past couple of months. Thank you so much and good luck with your lives.
May 13, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Look Both Ways (68): “Not being involved in this incident in any way, RB is somehow to blame for serving margaritas and for not kicking out a student from the school, or sending the russian mob to take some action–get real folks. Are you brainless as well as spineless?”
More insults – yawn… Personally I don’t know the precise ins and outs of this particular story, but there are countless similar stories, some of which I’ve seen more closely than this and have no reason to doubt.
RB’s involvement lies in the fact that he creates the “culture’ in which they occur. He makes it clear that he himself is above common morality (“feminine dominance”) and will do whatever he likes to fulfill his desires, regardless of the sufferings of others. He persuades young men to have sex with him by, eg, telling them it is the will of “Influence C”. Of course this rubs off on the boys and is reflected in their behaviour towards others, particularly women. In fact these grasping, self-absorbed, conscience-free attitudes pervade the FOF from top to bottom.
Also, the fact that Robert does all he can to hide his activities and expects them to be covered up leads to a paranoid avoidance of THE TRUTH, especially amongst the FOF organisational bigwigs. I capitalise “the truth” because searching for and being open to the truth, spiritual and otherwise, is the best antidote for those caught in the FOF’s hypnotic web.
Sure, some blog postings are exaggerated and subjective, but taken as a whole a more truthful picture of the FOF is emerging, and for that we can be thankful to our “brainless” friends.
“Every day is a good day. These words pervade past and present, from before until after, and settle everything at once.” Blue Cliff Records
May 13, 2007 at 8:07 pm
Thanks, many of use work in “life”. And we hurry home to be at Isis, during the week or in the weekends. We juggle our work in life and being in the FoF.
Something does not fit in this easy writing “we work in life”: If you are a parent and work in “life” and have a home and garden and relationships and being in the fof..something is suffering, unbalanced, doing too much. Ask the children and the teachers.
The people who are able to work in life and balance their lives are:
The once with enough financial income and no children…..
I regret the days that I would hurry the whole day to get my householder and work done drop children at the babysitter and dress up (in skirts and trying to be beautiful) and ended up so tired at the event….regrets.
And if you do not go as often the “innocent questions”: “Are you going tonight?”.
Thanks Sheik and all of you for being here.
May 13, 2007 at 8:33 pm
The link provided by Rabbi in #24 is a real gem. Go there.
I especially was impressed with the story in link
Click to access 07_leblanc_la_machine_2004-07-02.pdf
page 10, December 25th.
It gives an interesting account of a Teacher loving and externally considering his students, and the “greater community” on a Christmas day. G. has a gift for everyone, rich, poor, student, non student, that he distributes personally through the whole evening.
This does not sound very familiar for us.
After that FOF does not look so much like a school of love.
May 13, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Anonymous Says:
FoF is ‘in life’ and the majority of students work ‘in life’. Didn’t you notice? Maybe you should join and check it out.
What FOF do/did YOU join?? The FOF is cloistered FROM life and life people are not material for awakening but, rather, ‘food for the moon’.
There is no connection between FOF and the 4th Way. There are several of us who have verified that as being true.
Sadly, many posters here are either bufferring that fact or do not know that the Tradition still exists and has always existed.
May 13, 2007 at 8:45 pm
Thank you Rita, W.K, and all the people who have answered us so positively.
Thank you to the writers here: understanding is proportionnal to payment.
Thank you also to the Sheik who is certainly a special character.
May 13, 2007 at 9:08 pm
56 Arthur:
>It is not possible to equate bobby with Gurdjieff. Bobby is a clever camel dealer unconsious of the camel’s bite.
If you care to read up a little on Mr. G, I think you’ll find that he could give RB a few pointers on camel-dealing, rather than the other way round.
Regarding camel bites, my recollection is that it was Soloviev who got bitten after he wandered off on his own. If you lose your way on this expedition, who knows what will happen to you.
>Bobby changed form of HIS fof by pure imagination. Sadly, his oversexed homosexual activities is his camel’s bite.
First sentence is your theory.
Regarding second sentence: There is one thing of supreme importance in life, and it’s certainly not sexual orientation or sexual appetite. The importance that the latter assume on this blog is reflective of the subjective morality under which most in the Judeo-Christian tradition grow up. If you look at other cultures and times, such as classical Greece, the Tibetan Tantric tradition, or the temples at Khajhuraho in India, you will see that not everyone is as horrified by sex as many on this blog seem to be. Different cultures, different moralities.
As for people being upset (damaged) after their affair ends, who hasn’t experienced such upset at the end of any affair, in or out of the school? This blog seems to have a number of ex-students who have still not gotten over the main love affair of their lives (FoF). Some of them are still bitching violently or engaging in self-withering contempt about their ex-wife/husband 20 years later.
Must have been quite some affair while it lasted.
May 13, 2007 at 9:09 pm
At 2 minutes past 6 this evening (10.02 in Isis and surrounding areas) I was driving through a tunnel and remembered about the Ho’oponopono suggestion. Remembering that it is about healing oneself, and acknowledging that I have aspects of greed, lust, abuse of power etc. as does RB, I repeated “I am sorry, and I love you”. All day and when I entered the tunnel it had been grey, miserable and rainy. When I came out the tunnel, ths sun was shining brilliantly and lasted for about an hour afterwards…great! Kind of related to our experiment, see the website:
http://www.theintentionexperiment.com/index.php/the_experiments
May 13, 2007 at 9:11 pm
sheik, I have tried to submit comments 3 times over the last 2 days and they have disappeared! What’s going on???
May 13, 2007 at 9:19 pm
72: Re Sheik’s advice.
Thank you for your well-intentioned advice, dear Sheik, and for apparently lumping me in with a crowd of FoF hooligans you’ve heard before.
I’ve been listening to the same I’s as are offered on this blog for a quarter of a century. There’s nothing new here — just the same old pain factory of life. The pattern repeats exactly the same every time: They join, they love; they leave, they hate — with some noble exceptions.
May 13, 2007 at 9:29 pm
POST 9/46-OPPOSITE “I”s,DEFENSIVE LIES.
May 13, 2007 at 9:42 pm
I viewed a film titled “Little Children” last night and found it to be a powerful experience and somewhat related to some of the discussions here about village life at Oregon House. If you haven’t yet seen it, I highly recommend it.
May 13, 2007 at 9:50 pm
To Abigail and friends,
I want to thank you for your post which much impressed me. There is so much sincerity in it that before the words and the suffering, is the source of love.
Allow me to not believe that you find yourself untouched by such despised weaknesses as warm feelings or remorse toward people you hurt. This is not really what your letter is about. What your are exposing in the purest way, is the fact that people in the fellowship acquire a tremendous ability to hurt others, the closer to Robert they become. Ironically not to Robert who is close to no one but to the imaginary picture of themselves connected to a higher being, authority. That phenomenon, that willingness to hurt others justified by serving a higher being, is what is so dangerous about patriarchal, authoritarian structures in cults or social orders. Fascism was the ultimate expression of such tendency.
You have described the horrendous process that takes place as we indoctrinate each other in the “form” of the school or the formless, merciless second line.
It is not only Sandra or Joel, but all of us in different degrees.
In the process of healing what we all need to understand is that we connected to the Fellowship form with both our strengths and weaknesses, but in dealing with what we think are our weaknesses, we must be able to see the power and the beauty behind the weakness.
Weaknesses in the Fellowship are the desire to be and to participate, to love, to play, to work. Strengths in the Fellowship are to submit, to work like a robot in any octave, to lower yourself before Robert or Robert’s assistants, close and long range supporters who decide wether you are ‘good enough’ to participate, to be a part of the whole.
We all tried both, that is, we all wanted to love from our innermost beauty and took roles in which our features hurt ourselves and others. We all tried to be part of what we thought was the will of a conscious teacher, we each gave our measure of work, love and play and we were each confronted with the fact that the Fellowship is a “being” consuming machine.
No one counts in the Fellowship besides Robert and those willing to support him have given themselves up and have totally submitted, most particularly Girard, my husband, who became the ideal model of the good student and asked anyone who was not willing to submit in the same way he was willing to submit, to leave or to accept not participating in the life of the School, with the slight difference that unlike anybody else, he was the “chosen” one. One with the Whole, the whole of Robert.
All of our plays will look like children’s delight faced with the play between Robert and Girard. They have been the artifices of each other’s fall and they have been so with the best intention. Intention alone is not enough because the feature will carry it down the darkest road, when power remains unchecked and they did not even check each other but protected unconditionally each other’s weaknesses.
Sandra and Joel, Abigail and the rest of us who have left are just survivors who were in the gracefulness of our weaknesses, unable to submit the whole of our being. Thank God for weakness.
It is wonderfully interesting and necessary to be able to look at our selves and know the deep impulses that pushed us to participate in the Fellowship in whatever role it was, because beyond the ambition to be someone in a significant role, is also the willingness of essence to be a part of the whole. When one can understand that, one can let go of the judgement that sees only ambition and embrace the spiritual “whim” (as Meher Baba called it), that wished to participate.
To live is the act of affirming the consciousness of our integrity and the fragments of our unconsciousness is what creates separation between ourselves and others. The blessing of friction is that it is only attacking our unconsciousness. The damages that most of us suffered in the Fellowship were damages to personality but the prolonged continuation of the Fellowship in its momentum to consistently deny students the ability to participate, has the horrendous potential to create prolonged damages in essence.
It is worth noting that M.Baba did not call it “desire” but “whim” because there is a difference when personality desires to i.e. marry Girard Haven so that one can “have a role” to the whim in essence that wishes to love a man and a community.
It is this difference between a desire and a wish that allows us to transform judgement into understanding. A desire is the other side of the coin of a wish and it is perfectly legitimate if the essential impulse does not degenerate into antisocial behavior, because it is in the community that the individual can develop himself in the Way of Life. The problem with the Fellowship of Friends is that it aborted the community and gave birth to a more than a few narcissistic, sex maniacs.
All the friction and pain we have endured against each other, has both components. Amongst us we judge each other in personality because personality alone can only see the desire, the ambition, the feature, the greed, but to heal, we must be able to see beyond personality the beauty with which we all sincerely wished to love and be………loved.
It is with this same rod that we need to understand Robert, Girard, Linda, Karen, Rowena, Steven, Guinever, Meredith, Collin, Robert, Kevin, Elizabeth, Frances, Elena, whalerider, Asaf, Mihai or Maurizio or any one else amongst us.
Judging each other, that is, recognizing that we have stolen each others being, lied about what the school is, and fed on each other’s weakness to support our own or Robert’s role, is as necessary a step as acknowledging that it was all, sadly, done in good will. The will to develop a conscious school in which we hoped to give our selves up to the whole but instead, gave our selves up to Robert and Girard.
In this perspective, we will not have finished healing until we can redeem them, for Robert and Girard and their close supporters are the most damaged. Robert did not become a narcissistic sex maniac in one day, or on his own, he developed it because he was supported by all of us. It is not conscious crime for there is nothing conscious about crime but precisely because it is unconscious spiritual crime, it needs to be transformed.
Those inside still sincerely believe that it is a conscious school and it is the love, the suffering they’ve put in it, the buffer that does not let them see the horror in which it has developed. Did Ouspensky not teach us that the most difficult thing for people to give up, is unnecessary suffering?
Individually, each one of us has to find enough compassion within himself to know that beyond the greed for a role, the ambition for a place in the hierarchy, was the deep spiritual “need”, “whim”, “love”, “desire”, the absolutely legitimate urge TO BE one with the whole, the absolutely legitimate right to belong to a human community.
And as a community, we must find enough compassion in ourselves to embrace the most damaged amongst us including Robert and Girard.
What is being digested on this blog in letters like Abigail’s or anybody else’s suffering, is the poisons that made us sick and we do need to recognize the poison to apply the antidote if we are to come to any healing. Hopefully we can do that now so that we don’t have to dwell on it for another three or four lifetimes. Time counts for or against us and the only consciousness that will prove worthy in our play is that we transform our suffering with infinite compassion.
Thank you Abigail and again, greatly thankful to Lady B, and each one of you for your participation in this blog, including Exlax, and who ever seems trapped in the horrors of greater pain.
May 13, 2007 at 10:02 pm
To Anonymous 8/70 and your response to 8/64 Thank you for your answer. Good to know that the FOF has a connection to life.
You say “FOF is the Fourth Way as it now is.“
How do you know? Do you think it is maybe possible that the Fourth Way does exist outside of the FOF?
On the homepage of the FOF one can read:
How is the Teacher connected to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky?
Robert Burton, the teacher and founder of the Fellowship of Friends, studied under Alex Horn, who was a student of Lord Pentland, who in turn was a student of Peter Ouspensky.
To my knowledge nobody around Lord Pentland has ever heard of Alex Horn and considering reports from Alex Horn, it is questionable that he did send RB away to teach, as RB said. But I agree that is hard to proof, so everybody has to believe his version.
Thanks for the offer to join and check the FOF out. But let us assume money, sex and power would not be an issue of concern to me, there are still some aspects that make me a little reluctant to follow your invitation.
From what I understand reading the blog the FOF has the cosmic role of building an ark that will survive Armageddon and RB is the highest being after Christ that ever set his foot on this planet. Correct me if I am wrong or I mixed up some ideas. It takes up to nine lifetimes to awaken, but most of the members have 2 or 3 more rounds to go and than you will be an angel too, like RB is already, according to himself. The only condition is, being a member until you die. The primary criteria for being a member is a monthly payment. So being in the FOF is about awakening, but it will not happen this lifetime. Apparently Armageddon did not happen punctually and the coastline of California is still waiting to find its final destination. The 10.000 members that were supposed to live at Isis for the big event haven’t arrived yet and the board of seven men with numbers >4 has still some spare seats. After joining I will learn selective perception and start to react to certain numbers. They will give me shocks to awaken me. I will learn that the appearance of these numbers is due to the work of angels that personally assist me. The reports from members of the FOF vary in their judgement, but around 90% decide after checking it out, sometimes for 30 years and more, to leave it behind and not go for the offer of a better lifetime next time around. Also the promise of being saved during Armageddon (is there a new date for it?) does not seem to be tempting enough for the ones leaving.
I guess if I would ask for recommendations for the FOF, they would be hard to find.
Please give me three good reasons why I should trust you and your offer.
May 13, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Can somebody please upload a video of RB leading a meeting on youtube.com?
Just looking at it, will explain a lot.
May 14, 2007 at 12:52 am
Lust for Life (81): As you can see at least 2 got through. Sometimes, especially if you are posting a link, a comment will be marked as spam by my spam filter which results in the comment seemingly disappearing. I check my spam filter regularly so even those comments that get marked as spam get moderated.
I am sorry if it is incovenient. Wait until the next wave of moderated comments and see then (if your comment doesn’t appear then please send it again).
I don’t delete comments unless there is a really good reason for it.
May 14, 2007 at 1:29 am
Dear Alice in Wonderlust,
I think I initially misunderstood you and thought you were saying that the perspective I’ve been seeing with was similar to the neoconservative perspective and after reading the article you sent me I realized that you very well spotted the similarities of the Fellowship phenomenon to the current administration.
If we take a quick look others might enjoy the analogy. The article, “Ignoble liars: Leo Strauss, George Bush and the philosophy of mass deception” by Earl Shorris says:
Strauss’ disciples methodically infected and then corrupted the government of the most powerful nation on earth.
His most famous student was Allan Bloom, a vicious misogynist.
These are the paradigms Strauss stood by.
1. The greatest clarity is contradiction.
For the uninitiated, contradiction is the key to the Straussian approach, and more than anything else it defines the Bush regime and its circle of influentials.
In the Fellowship, students are asked to swallow the fundamental contradiction between the theory and the practice of consciousness within its boundaries.
2. Wise men tell noble lies
“…..the provision of a philosophy of the noble lie, the conviction that lies, far from being simply a regrettable necessity of political life, are instead virtuous and noble instruments of wise policy”
In the Fellowship the justification of all the contradictions with the noble lie that consciousness is separate to functions, that a man number seven cannot be questioned by a man number 1 to 4, that the lower cannot see the higher, that we are here to work only on ourselves, “become conscious and then fix the machine,” any I besides presence is one of your ten thousand idiots, on and on, all designed to guarantee that you don’t question what is really happening to yourself and the people around you, so that you, students, continue to pay and support the establishment as it is, without questioning it.
4. All men are not created equal
5. Democracy is the rule of the wise over the unwise.
6. Nature abhors a contract.
“The Bush administrator’s held up Strausss’s version of natural law as the model, dismissing contracts as mere laws of men. Natural law, interpreted by Bush’s wise counsels, gave the President permission to launch a preemptive war through an appeal to the higher power.
…… Natural law is both divine and self evident.
In the Fellowship, student’s are to believe that it is feminine dominance to have the slightest idea or recognition of how you think a conscious school SHOULD be. Only Robert’s divinity and consciousness have the right to say how things ARE. It is “Robert’s school”. You don’t like it, get the hell out.
You are not material for a conscious school.
7. The best friend is an enemy
The only way for a liberal democracy to remain strong was to have external enemies.
The enemies of the Fellowship:
The six billion dead people in life.
The ten thousand idiotic students who left.
The descending humanity that will destroy itself in a third world war.
Women, the bearers of feminine dominance.
Biological Families.
Any other human enterprise in search of consciousness, only the Fellowship is conscious, it is the last conscious school on the planet.
8. After one, comes none.
After Robert, no one is worthy. The rest of us are all beggars.
9. The answer to the human question is to avoid it.
10. No one more than Strauss has greater contempt for the weakness of humility or puts more credence in the arrogance of the superman. The will to power, which is the will to life itself, the will to overcome, to control, to be master of all things. This is the will of the Bush Administration and needless to say of the Burton-Girard-Asaf administration.
It is interesting that during the last days we spent arguing with Girard, he said, “The Fellowship will not stop being what it is, just as the Bush administration cannot be impeached” He followed that with some justification that it was only an analogy……but the analogy could not be more close.
Earl Shorris writes in the article:
Arrogance follows elitism, it leads to cruelty, the capability, perhaps even the desire, to use people, to make them into things.
Things:
Students that dress equally silky.
Students that don’t think.
Students that work, live and love against themselves and each other.
That follow a programmed schedule to each moment of their lives. The breakfast, the lunch, the dinner, the concert, the meeting, the potager, the concert, the meeting, the dinner, the lunch, the breakfast, but
DON’T EAT.
THE FOOD IS NOT WORTH TASTING.
LOOK HYPNOTISED AT THE DIVINITY OF YOUR TEACHER AND CONVINCE YOURSELF THAT YOU ARE HAVING A CONSCIOUS STATE.
NEVER TALK TO EACH OTHER, THEY ARE JUST ‘I’S.
May 14, 2007 at 2:41 am
Thanks Sheik for your comments in post #72. I feel a little disappointed in the sniping and sarcasm and jumping to conclusions that sometimes occurs. You are so right about the effort it can take to hear and understand another.
To Trademarker, #86:
I went to a conference in England in 1996 known as “All and Everything” that occurs annually. There were people from all over the world, former students of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Bennett, etc. Many of these people had heard of the FOF and of RB and considered him a charlatan of sorts and the FOF to be a very dissident group having little to do with the Fourth Way misrepresenting themselves by using the images of G and O on bookmarks. I became friendly with a long time student of Bennett who told me that Alex Horn was never really a student. He described him as a “hanger-on” for a while at Bennett’s group in Combe Springs. Alex Horn’s former wife, who was a student of Bennett, lives in Cotati.
May 14, 2007 at 3:13 am
Anonymous #79: Camel dealers like horse traders and used car salesmen have a lot in common. Especially the mechanically criminal. They tend to hide defects from fools coming to buy.
History is replete with evidence that bad deals (FOF) come back to bite. Enron is one example and FOF will probably be on the docket soon enough.
The REAL 4th way works in life that’s a given.
This life not classical Greece, not old or modern India or Tantric Tibet.
To think the REAL 4th Way would condone the bedroom antics of Bobby is your delusion. Even if one iota that has been mentioned here is true.
Before you get lost and something happen to you, I suggest you read 9-24. I see a camel heading your way.
May 14, 2007 at 3:40 am
I wanted to apologise to trademarker for lying. The truth as most of you know, is that the school has been moving away from Gurdjieff and Ouspensky for some time now.
From the guidebook for centres. Sept. 06
“During the last year the Teacher asked that we move away from the system as presented by Gurdjieff-Ouspensky with which the school began, and move towards the “Classical Knowledge” of the ancient schools.”
It is possible that this comment was written by someone else than the previous person signed as ‘Anonymous’. — ES
May 14, 2007 at 5:44 am
Have you recently departed the FOF in the last few weeks, months, or even days?
Let’s hear from you now!
…how’s it going? Still breathing?
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 14, 2007 at 6:24 am
wow! I was there in the early eighties. long time ago. Will stay up with the blog. What is the ultimate purpose? can we save those who are still in? Hopefully those that are out have already rediscovered themselves.
pyw
May 14, 2007 at 6:35 am
In response to 9/86, about the lineage and Robert Burton’s purported direct connection with Gurdjieff:
I wrote to the Gurdjieff foundation about the Pentland-Horn connection (claimed on FOF website) on February 5, 2007, and got this response:
“In response to your inquiry, it seems that Alex Horn, at one point, asked John Pentland if he could come to the Foundation and Pentland replied that if he gave up all the groups he was working with he could join the work at the Foundation. It’s likely that Horn met with Pentland a few times. If you have any further interest in the Gurdjieff work, please feel free to contact me or the Foundation.
Mary Rothenberg”
The FOF website, attempting to make the lineage sound legitimate, also states that Pentland was a student of Ouspensky. That is another thing that we could ask the Gurdjieff foundation about. As far as I know, they look down on Ouspensky and might be amused at the notion that Pentland was a student of O.
May 14, 2007 at 6:47 am
Ames,
I’m not sure what “grok” means, but with “spiritual” I mean in this context for instance the ability to talk about anything without expressing negative emotions.
I wonder why this question, if 3 lines are a temporary or permanent tool for awakening, is not interesting to more readers…
May 14, 2007 at 7:59 am
# 72 “Don’t start writing as soon as you’re finished with the reading. Sit still and observe, be aware.”
Dear Sheik,
you gave us very good advise on post 72.
Since the accidental discovery of this godsent blog I have noticed in myself so many emotions and reactions to what people say from all sides that I feel almost blocked in writing back.
Often it is not even clear to me where one or another blogger is standing for or defending, it is so easy to misunderstand…
Maybe this is like Babel’s tower at times…
But I am glad denial is over and people are bringing facts out in the open, even confused, it’s still all so good!
Thank you for hosting and keeping up with the blog!
May 14, 2007 at 12:00 pm
Dear WhaleRider and PriorYoungWorker,
“…how’s it going? Still breathing?”
“Hopefully those that are out have already rediscovered themselves”
I left two months and half ago, together with my husband, after 20 years “spent” in the Fellowship and Yes! I am still breathing!!!!
I prefer to say that I re-started breathing, finally, in the fresh (and free) air! I feel like I could exit a big bowl where I was floating as a fish in an acquarium…
I do not know if “I rediscovered myself” (big words at this time for me, I wish to be more intentional about what I “state”, from now on), but I can say that the simple, little life is much more delightful than I thougt. The universe is not so concerned about me, and I am happy about it.
I do not know if I will ever look for something else, perhaps I will, perhaps I will not. Now, is time for healing, and breathing, and reading, and walking, and painting, and gardening, and loving (and cooking, as Joel F., I do also love cooking).
Maybe, I was ready to leave, but if it can help someone who is in pain, and who is afraid about leaving the FOF, I wish to tell you “from the bottom of my heart”: Just do it!
It requires courage, we all know, but it is definitely worthy: Yourself is wating for you….
A hug,
GF
May 14, 2007 at 3:33 pm
Shelley, #39: well done, girl. I have no respect for those who bark anonymously at people writing under their own names here, such a bad taste!
WhaleRider #93: Leaving the school was the best decision I’ve made since I joined it. 14 years ago I needed a mental structure which could support my troubled relationship with myself and the world. Few months ago I followed my conscience and left, which brought me freedom from concepts and realization that I grew out of the need for this type of support. No regrets, in the end I can see how perfectly the whole ‘play’ worked out. We get all we need all the time, just sometimes we can’t recognize it and that’s when we suffer. That’s why, answering to prior young worker #94, I don’t see the need to ‘save those who are still in’. We make decisions when we are ready.
On the ‘ultimate purpose’ of the blog: to me it was important to write under my own name in order to let out all thoughts and emotions that were suppressed in the school. That achieved, I can move on without the baggage I carried around for years. That is to me the purpose of the public writing.
I was discussing yesterday with my friend the fact that amazes me, which is that there are so many students leaving the school at this time. I still don’t know the answer, but it seems that freedom of information works magic. Indeed, if I knew about the school and RB what I know now, I would have never joined (although again, no regrets).
For those who, like me, grew up in a totalitarian country, the freedom of information is precious. I valued the 4th way ideas greatly, not least because I met them through a friend who would copy the whole books of Ouspensky and Nicol BY HAND (because there were no copy machines available and the books were not published at that time). The originals would be badly translated and typed with lots of mistakes on a typewriter, 6 copies, each getting paler and paler. That was a true valuation; those writings were treasured as nothing else!
So, to me this blog is incredibly valuable as a great source of information and a place where one can express ones difficult memories and feelings and be free of them.
May 14, 2007 at 4:11 pm
Hi folks,
Last Thursday night I spent an exhilarating evening at the Politics and Prose book store in D.C. listening to Christopher Hitchens debate the faithful on the existence of god and the usefulness of religion. It was quite the show and reminded me more than a little bit of what is happening right here on this blog.
I highly recommend Hitchens’ book – “god is not Great: How Religion Poisons Everything” as a great spiritual palate cleanser.
Can Atheists wake up? Discuss.
May 14, 2007 at 5:04 pm
While living in one of the FOF outposts, teaching centers or whatever they were called, I tended to listen ‘hard’.
The reason I listened ‘hard’ was because I wanted to avoid being photographed. In my mind that was being a good student of ‘attention’ to mechanicality.
One night while drinking coffee and eating cookies after a meeting, I overheard two older students say, “the teacher says ALEX IS a criminal”.
I had no clue who ALEX was and didnt bother to ask. But, after reading some of the above mentioned blogs about ALEX HORN, I’m wondering.
Does it really take one to know one?
May 14, 2007 at 5:24 pm
Living the contradiction 6
— between form and abandoning form
I was touched by Sheik’s comment #9/72 : ”Yes, Anonymous (and so many others on all sides of the fence), it is very simple to write a short reply to everyone on the blog and point out that there is a different way (a different angle) of looking at any issue. It doesn’t do much for you personal understanding though.”
As some of the posters probably think that just throwing in a one-sentence-reply shows their level of Non-identification and this for many after years of being in a school that prepares them to “wake-up”. It is revealing that an outsider like Sheik has so much more Relativity and King-of-hearts.
It is the blind spot of the 4th-Way-student to believe he is not as subjective as any follower of a any other religion. Because “we are basing all on verification – and not just believe”. But if you look closer at this common “roughness” and “lack of compassion” in general in the 4th-Way, it is just a misunderstood attempt in trying to copy how the founder “Gurdjieff” expressed himself. For him short “judgmental replies” like “You square-idiot” was a common thing and if someone came to him with a personal problem he first send him out in the garden to dig some ditch.
Fourth-Way-Students are not really interested in anyone else’s life-story as of course they cannot be so subjective and get pulled down by some emotional stories as we have Gurdjieff as our guiding figure and not Mother Theresa. Certainly you would not find that amount of acidity in a Christian chat forum, not because they are more evolved but because they did not have the same acid Role-models to follow.
As you might know by now, I am maybe one of the few that believes that RB could not have done anything else than he did and the same for Gurdjieff, because as Gurdjieff said “If things could be different they would be different”. It is up to the student to decipher these actions of the teacher and not just copy them or follow in a sheep-like fashion.
Of course for the inner circle of the FOF the fact that so many are leaving is no reason to question anything as “It is only healthy to clean the school from those people who do not have the proper valuation.” And they believe that they are part of the “chosen People” and that the school really STIL works, not because they have verified that: –they are getting happier people every day they are in it- or -that they can deal with negativity and identification every year better- or -that relationships in the fellowship are more rewarding than outside because they are made-up of two people with a common aim- or -that there is more present every day-.
No, not because of all those Verifications the average student has this gigantic vanity feature and feeling of superiority, but simply because RB has repeated to them thousands of times : “how lucky they are”, “that being chosen to be in such a school is a rare event in the universe”, “ that we own this tiny amount of justice that exists in creation”, “that we are all doing so well” and and and.
This FORM that the gods have given RB to create is like any other form useful and necessary to make growth possible but then the believe and dependence on form that is an inevitable result of time, becomes for some a pillow to sleep better. For others it some denying force to be used to transform in something higher.
And seeing the evolution of this blog it seems that it must have been given a purpose by the gods in the way it succeeds to again and again purify itself from some purely negative and aggressive posters like Be Careful, Just Observing, Howard Carter, Harriet Baker, and the many names they have already taken. They just express all the negativity that they cannot express in meetings anymore as there are no personal statements allowed and when they have relieved themselves they disappear.. demonstrating the shallowness of their being to all who have eyes to see.
Its truly is a divine comedy as maybe this planet has not seen before, for some to wake up from this cave with its projection of shadows. Its such a miniature analogy to the procession of incarnations…. For most it is only a lifetime to follow somebody, to try to quote as many eminent persons as possible and to express as much negativity as possible when one can hide behind a name or position. For others it is to verify that in order to evolve one needs Form, but one has never to become comfortable with it but truly try to pass from Form through the “transformation of Form” to another Form that only can serve for a limited time. … It needs courage, it needs not be afraid to be alone again, it needs to be true to oneself and more than anything it needs the help of the gods.
Kiran@beingpresent.net
Finding the beauty in Oregon House
May 14, 2007 at 5:40 pm
Thousands of posts have come and gone. imho, only one so far has carried sufficient being to entice me to stand and be counted. This is Elena`s 9-85. It doesn`t matter who actually wrote it. This doesn`t mean that I am pro-this or anti-that. What I mean, for the sake of much needed clarity (no pun intended), is that this post most exemplifies my present approach to the fof subject. I say my present approach because I am very well aware that tomorrow is another day.
I Have been helped to climb out of the sulphur pits. Joy has been allowed to re-enter my experience from time to time, and for this I am eternally grateful. My passive-negative-non-existant armor may be beginning to crack. There are a few good signs.
I ask what I want, and in the moment that I ask, answers begin to pop in. I edit, again and again. Soon the question becomes non-existant or nearly so.
Thank you Clara for 9-85. I can now put this blog aside and rest my aching heart. Usually, I can`t tell whether my tears come from grief or joy. Today they feel soft and tender. I am sorry as sorry can be and I love you all, till we meet again in joy. Renald J. Brisson
May 14, 2007 at 6:06 pm
Dear Fellow Bloggers,
Thanks to all the current and former members of the Fellowship of Friends who have been able to contribute in a neutral and transformative way to this internet blog. Special thanks (if that can any way to express my feelings) to Whale Rider. (Discussion #8, post [262]) Your story blew the cork off my champagne bottle. I’m talking yes, about the queen of hearts, but in her most transformative aspect: Conscience.
What your story helped me to see is that we all have been looking at the Teacher and his actions from the wrong point of view: that is, our own personal work. Anyone who is confronted with the details of Robert’s private and personal actions, must ask himself/herself, “Is this man my Teacher?”. Thus we approach the conflict ready to photograph our own ignorance, Feminine Dominance, and subjective morality. Many do that for years and finally leave. But, if we stay, we agree that he is a Conscious Being (because he is, and there’s the rub) and somehow we find a way to let the other things slide. But for those students still in the School who are reading this blog, step aside and ask yourself, what effect on his own spiritual development – and thus that of the School – does his lack of self control in his private and personal life have? Ask. Look. Feel. Think. (with presence) But don’t buffer, please, don’t do that.
When this blog entered into my cosmos sometime in January or early February, I felt resentful and defensive. Over time, I began to feel that this big interval (of which the blog is merely a part) is coming from Influence C, because it is happening, together with many other things that no human could possibly orchestrate. Thus the blog, Advaita, the Keys, the Sequence, and the Prehistorics are all connected. But how? What is Influence C pointing to? Well, take some time and try to figure it out for yourself. Everything is correct and has it’s place.
My own experience during these past few months has been that Advaita is at least one way out. This does not mean running off to join Adyashanti, but instead get a copy of “I am That” by Nisargadatta (a deceased 20th century Indian mystic) for your spiritual nutrition. You won’t regret it. His clear, precise and pointed dialogues clearly reflect the Conscious aspects of Robert’s teaching – and much more. In very practical terms he describes how to be present. He also helps to dissolve any of the less conscious aspects of our Teaching, revealing even the limitations of the Fourth Way, at least as we have been practicing it. Robert seems to be trying to extend the experience of the Fourth Way too, by exploring the Sequence and the Keys, let’s embrace it! If all Schools are the same School, we have nothing to lose but imagination and everything to gain.
But to get back to Whale Rider, to students still remaining in the School with their eyes wide open, I can only suggest to you to encourage your own fellow students to “wake up”, too. Show them a printout of the Whale Rider’s story in a non-confrontational, non-negative way. Ask yourself, ask them, have we created a bit of a monster by looking for, needing and feeding our external Guru? Has he become a little stunted in his own spiritual growth through his own excesses? And how can we help him out of it? Can we help him out of it? Read about Peter Ouspensky. http://www.gurdjieff-bibliography.com/Current/t_seton_case-of-pdo_2004-07-04.pdf And of course there are others: side tracked Gurus is a well known, yet reprehensible phenomenon. Here is a recent story. http://www.inner-quest.org/Real_Advaita.htm And we in turn, have we become some little Fourth Way monsters too by needing to suspend our own Conscience in order to stay in the School?
Dear student, be courageous. There is a way out, and it has always been the same way out, Presence, Loving Presence. Attention with affection, on your Self, in the company of Friends. Good Luck to us all!
Ann Onymous
1981 –
May 14, 2007 at 6:47 pm
I forgot to tell you about one great thing that happened to me since I’ve left the school and which I noticed just recently: I don’t wake up depressed! Last time I remember waking up happy (except when I was in love) was when I was 23! It’s scary to think that most of my life I was so self-obsessed that I couldn’t see how beautiful this life is…
It’s interesting to live with an ‘empty head’. Thoughts, ideas, creativity, concepts flow freely. I look at them, some seem interesting, some-rubbish. There is no need to cultivate any of them. Thoughts we choose as guidelines for living are no more than structures to help the mind to make sense of life which doesn’t really need any such explanations or justifications. Still, being ‘cultured’ or ‘programmed’, we can’t avoid choosing one way of thinking or another. Yet it can be a playground for the mind when it’s active, rather than a prison of our own mentality.
That to me is freedom.
May 14, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Re Traveler #195
Some more history:
John Pentland actually visited the compound at Oregon House back in the 1970s. He was accompianied by the writer/editor Jacob Needleman and they showed a film up at the lodge that had something to do with the Gurdjieff work. RB gave up his room at the Blake cottage (RB’s home then) to Pentland. Turns out, the visit was a fund-raiser for some project they had going, but RB declined to give them any money.
May 14, 2007 at 7:39 pm
SusanK #27
Hello yourself, nice to see you here, and thanks for your kind words. Hope you are well.
Abigail #48
I don’t remember an Abigail, is that the name you went by then?
I apologize if I treated you badly, or without consideration, it was unfortunately pretty common in those days. I regret it.
Look Both Ways #68
Yes, I suppose there are a lot of “idiots” posting here, and you may be right that I’m one of them. I was still disturbed by the anonymous veiled threats in the “put up or shut up Kiran” post.
I don’t know what the truth of the Kiran story is.
I don’t know what the truth of the “child molestation” story is.
I don’t know what the truth of the Whalerider or other stories is either.
This is the nature of these stories and this form of “publishing” them, and it’s up to each of us to deal with this uncertainty.
Your job is to be an apologist, so no worries about whether these events happened or not, just flame the people telling the stories. Good strategy! Congratulations! The tag team always wins!
Siddiq/Anonymous=good cop/bad cop? just wondering.
It looks like a tag team to me because there’s usually only one (or at most two) of these people posting at any one time, and when one disappears, poof! another magically appears. And if they are so proud of their association, why not post with their real names and get the glory that would surely derive from defending the fof?
Coot #8, you’re a hoot. Thanks for the “doofi”!
Anonymous #82
“I’ve been listening to the same I’s as are offered on this blog for a quarter of a century. There’s nothing new here…”
How sad it hasn’t gotten through to you yet.
Thanks for reading.
JoelF
May 14, 2007 at 8:04 pm
Rita Penfold: You rock!!!
Kid Shelleen: I would also recommend ‘The God Delusion’ by Richard Dawkins, it seems that they talk about the same subject.
May 14, 2007 at 8:22 pm
#89 Elena
Yes!!! fof is life in tiny miniature. These ‘leadership principles’ are happening on a large scale at this time. I just find this interesting. And how strange that Girard used the RB/Bush analogy.
When I first read the Earl Shoris article I spent time being shocked that people had such different basic values than I do. I know, seems it should be obvious, and besides its ego-centric. But there it is. I take my basic values so for granted and this actually revealed them to me because of the comparison. It became easier for me to see how people (myself included) could be duped by liars since we assume that the liar, like us, is telling the truth, not mangling it, and if there is a lie then there is a really really good reason for it. When Dick Cheney debated Edwards last US election (on TV), he said he had never met Edwards before, which was an obvious lie. And I realized he lies just out of habit – just for the effect of the moment. Isn’t conscience involved in telling the truth? Valuing the people receiving the information enough to tell the truth?
Abigail,
I get the sense that you are directly facing your shadow – resentment towards ‘them’ and anger at self for not being like them. I don’t think its sad… I think its necessary.
I read about ‘shadow’ in Marie Louise Von Franz’s books. She was a famous Junian. It made intuitive sense to me and its sort of poetic. When the light comes on the shadow is revealed.
May 14, 2007 at 8:24 pm
From that essay on Ouspensky that I quoted in post 24 (It was sent to me by a just-about current FOF student):
“But I really feel I have learned something from the System,” said Marie Seton. “Then you are the only one who ever has!” said Ouspensky.
So O. believed the 4th Way is a sham. This doesn’t necessarily mean that Gurdjieff’s version was a sham, but clearly O. thought it was.
Then O. says: “The System has become a profession with me …… I have become dependent on the comfort, the luxury. I can’t give it up.”
How honest he was! And in fact not long after this he publicly repudiated the 4th Way.
So there is a decent way out for a “teacher” caught in that situation. I wonder if Robert has ever had such a conversation with one of his confidantes? Does he realize his teaching is a sham? Could he at some point repudiate it and advise his students to give up unnecessary concepts (O. refused to answer questions about “self remembering” etc.) and instead look at what is right in front of their noses?
“A monk asked, ‘What is the treasury of the eye of the true Dharma?’ Yun Men said, ‘Universal.’ It just doesn’t allow any attempts to explain!” The Blue Cliff Record
May 14, 2007 at 9:00 pm
A visit to Gurdjieff by Dennis Saurat:
“They are inclined to ask themselves if they are duped, but they would prefer to remain victims.”
Some voices suggest “we” (not “they”) are duped, others suggest “we” are victims,
others that we are none!
Can we let go ?
If you have a chance, read the small opus titled “Secretum”.
Francis Petrarch (the father of “humanism”…) wrote it in the winter 1342 1343 (!).
Francis: What do you say ?
Augustin: That your conscience often brought you tears, but that changed nothing to your will.
Gratitude.
May 14, 2007 at 9:13 pm
#106… I was there also, serving in the My Sin room . RB gave Pentland a pillow for a gift…you can guess the not so shaded implication yourself. Needleman was strutting around with a long cigarette holder with his pinky out. RB and Pentland sort of had this humility competition going on,with their own humility “acts”. Later on the word came back that Pentland said something to the effect that the pumped up FOF extravagance was one thing he was hoping to move his students away from. Actually,I came away feeling Pentland was closer to the ideas. Just my opinion.
May 14, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Dick Moron #106
I was the “point man” for that visit, remember it well. They were raising money to finish the film of Meetings With Remarkable Men, and Burton later regretted not giving them any $$. Instead he gave Pentland an antique lace pillow. He seemed quite impressed to be meeting an actual “Lord.”
From meeting over the years with many “Gurdjieffians” in various schools/cults/groups, here is my take on their general views:
• Ouspensky never “got” what Gurdjieff was trying to teach. Although his intellect is admired, he missed the point.
• In Search of the Miraculous is an accurate retelling of Ouspensky’s story, but none of his other books are worth reading, particularly The Fourth Way.
• Ouspensky’s reliance on “self-remembering” proves he did not understand Gurdjieff’s teaching, which was centered in the body.
• The only “workbook” is Beelzebub’s Tales
• People who take any of Gurdjieff’s teachings or stories literally are hopelessly simple and probably cannot do the work.
• Rodney Collin was a weak and diseased mind subject to taking fantasy as reality.
• The only real inheritors of Gurdjieff’s teaching operate within the Gurejiff Foundation.
• All others claiming any connection to Gurdjieff’s work are charlatans, mentally defective, or criminals.
FYI, and thanks for reading.
JoelF
May 14, 2007 at 9:18 pm
Hi SusanK. Hi Joel. I disagree, I think the tag team doesn’t always win. Oh, OK you weren’t being serious, the tag team always “thinks” they win. I think they’re doing a lousy job for themselves-remember the cyclical “breathing in of the school”?
May 14, 2007 at 9:36 pm
In Reply to Post #43/9, Siddiq & #59/9
Hello Lady B., you wrote ~
“Just keep in mind that your negativity helps those who might otherwise be silent to finally tell their stories.”
________________________________________
For the sake of the truly beautiful, silent being in all of us, this, what you have written, is simply not true. For me, there is no justification possible for negativity, it helps no one. Everything said or written with a negative tonality or implication can be distilled into its ‘real’ points of interest: this is why Pain bodies ‘hate’ lawyers, for it is their business to objectify subjectivity, putting one’s ‘little self’ into the big world of relativity. One’s complaints belong to billions of collective participants; remove one person on this earth, in totality, everything disappears, particularly the remover.
Perhaps you meant well in encouraging people to express their essences, yet, I
would ask you to please go deeper into the ideas around supporting or justifying such things as the angst ridden genius, perceptions like the ‘no pain, no gain’ motto.
It is possible to laugh in the middle of a raging crying fit. This points to an incredible place within all of us, a place that intuitively knows that ~ ‘All it not what it seems’.
This is not to say that tenacity is not a welcomed ‘edge’, often its healthy to have pure H12 flowing through one’s convictions, so long as its not fueling a crusade, inquisition or subjectively omnipotent guruship.
I am not sure where you were referencing Siddiq, concerning children not being at risk in the FoF: please correct me Siddiq if I am responding to something you did not imply or say.
Siddiq,
If you did imply that children are not at risk in the FoF, children of FoF students (assuming your idea of risk involves something synonymous with the sexual exploitations experienced upon students of RB and his followers)…I must stress here, that you are absolutely mistaken: this would be an ultra-solar position to conjure upon this subject. For instance ~
There are young teenagers, not in the FoF, though daughters and sons of students, spending time with RB’s inner circle members who have the following self calming aspects of lifestyle ~
Smoking marijuana, excessive alcohol consumption, pornography, infra-sex activities, the taking of artificial drug stimulates and relaxants.
If you are someone who has a budding teenager whose spending allot of time with any of RB’s boys, particularly one whose first name starts with R., buyers beware.
This is not a judgment, like all ‘Sold As Is’ signs, it simply tells the buyer not to come back to the seller with complaints or accusations. Therefore this is a sign and only a sign.
My advice to Clara and anyone else who is one of the more ‘broad reaching types’, to spam this blog address as much as possible, via internet, postal and overseas mail, along with a few ‘key’ hard copies of this blog commentary. For instance ~ Rick Ross now has a link to this blog site.
_________________________________
In reply to #59, concerning wine consumption in a spiritual school.
There was rampant alcohol consumption by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, Orage , etc. Both O’s and O’s physical deaths were attributed to the chronic consumption of hard liquor.
For me, it is not so much about the alcohol that’s being consumed, the self-calming aspect of it and the likes, it is the context in which it serfs along, riding a wave that’s daily disappearing into a desert of no return.
Alcohol can be an ascending octave, though this is a very unique, a one in a thousand circumstance, like having a beer after push mowing a big lawn or cooking a steak in red wine.
It is no mistake that the FoF began with a vineyard, symbolically, I see it as simply another element immersed in the structure of spiritual-school-form so to eventually bring about a graduation from it or conscious moderation thereof.
Yet in the FoF wine is mostly used to feed deeper vibrations of pain body hunger, buffer true level of being participation with the artificial prying open of higher emotional center, which results in a facial and bloodstream expression, with no mass, no content or context to personal consciousness.
As a subject of Pain-body addiction, it also protracts the pain-ego of being a movie-star-alcoholic: this is not meant to be cynical, for many do not know spiritual schools and may see it as such, though, unlike other places on the planet, ego-spiritual schools do not wear the crucifix as a necklace, they carry it around, life sized, with a little wheel attached to its end.
Wine, big money, fine impressions and the like, these do produce higher hydrogens in of themselves, though very seldom can the partakers of such affirmations match those hydrogens from within, from a point of view in being the words , i.e., can you walk the talk?
So many times I have witnessed 23,000 dollar Harleys sitting in front of incredibly ‘different’ abodes of the rider. It is interesting that one can allow the cooking stove to develop multiple layers of sedimentary food spillage, yet, a few drops of asphalt on the chrome motor initiates a one hour ritual with a toothbrush that could pale any archaeological student’s training. How is it that one can love heaven and hate life?
For me, when I see a picture of saints or angels ascending a ladder to heaven from earth, I try to see it as walking down the ladder backwards.
As in ‘the rest of life’, the same goes for the FoF… Wine and all other biological and visual aphrodisiacs are stationed on earth to graduate from, to internalize, to learn conscious moderation from a beginning point of excess usually.
So, yes, the FoF has a staggering number of closet-alcoholics and copious amounts of wine, tequila and beer are consumed at Isis; yet, so what, take a look around, America is the modern day door salesman of debauchery. Is it not ironic that after shopping for your groceries your presented at the cashier with, alcohol, sweets, gossip, cigarettes, gambling, pornography and money back, in case you don’t have enough to by these things? Sometimes its really too obvious, the messages, yet, perhaps it has to be that way.
Again, for me, its the context. The FoF has many aphrodisiacs, RB is one of them. Another is the willy-nilly-community that has formed around this so called fourth-way-school… There are so many sub-groups in the FoF, one could make a miniature replica of the 50 states in Oregon House.
These sub-groups or ‘clicks’ have developed through a hunger for individual, conscious understanding; though cannot provide much of anything substantial because ‘clicks’ click for they do not allow its participants to touch the ‘off’ button, personal buffers, feature plays, irridations, all play the major roles in what can and cannot happen within these sub-groups. For instance,
apologizing before giving a photograph,
apologizing after giving a photograph,
gossip, exaggerations, laughing at failure,
saying, “I know this is negative, but….”
saying, “I don’t want to say this, but….”
saying, “How is your misery going?”
These ‘little nests smoldering’ were also mapped out by RB, he has created the master blue print for these FoF phenomenon; yet, just like strict motor cycle clubs, its a human impulse to gather in guild-like-clusters. If you ride a BMW, you had better not have a Triumph tattooed on your bicep, if your a Bandito, you’d better not get caught golfing in Palm Springs.
____________________
Graduate, love everything. Whalerider’s recent post concerning his grandmother’s death reminded me of a story.
Equipped with my budding magnetic center, one day I was called to my great grandmother’s house to assist. I was about 15 or 16 then: my g.g. was dying, she was 99+, my father and his brother could not take the impression of her suffering, she had the appearance of a skeleton with a thin layer of skin.
It was intense as I approached the room, a caretaker had to change the sheets and needed someone to lift my g.g. up in the meantime. Grown men, in their late fifties ,leaving the room as death-awe struck ‘eight year olds’, deathbed scenes have no room for false personality, oftentimes, even essence goes out the window.
As I held her in my arms, hearing her wailing at the top of her lungs,(she was suffering primarily from chronic heart failure) writhing against my grip, thrashing to and fro, small drip-drop tears fell from my eyes, not the streaming type.
It was here that I was afforded yet another real look at love in its most bare forms: it is being ‘from’ such places we are enabled to see through the make-believe intolerances of others, the child’s play hidden inside discarded suits of armor and be quietly humbled by the true struggle to progress along this very difficult, trying, spiritual path: yet, one must press on, everything that comes to us was sent by return address.
Love to you all.
May 14, 2007 at 10:12 pm
To Elena (89)
Wonderful post.
The 48 Laws of Power are also interesting. (Just google that term if you’re interested.)
To Rita Penfold (105) Wonderful news that you feel happy. I admit that I always noticed a depressed & repressed feeling in the Fellowship.
I remember after my first meeting I drove home and couldn’t stop crying. I was somehow disappointed because the members seemed depressed. Unfortunately, I didn’t listen to that first instinct.
This discussion board is a blessing!
May 14, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Re Dick Moron on Lord Pentland visiting Oregon House. This is how the story came down to me from older students. They said that Pentland was raising money for the movie about Gurdjieff, Meetings with Remarkable Men. And that Robert had declined to give the money but instead sent Pentland a gift of a pillow! At this point in the story, the older students would add, smirking: “It was a very beautiful pillow.” They also said that Robert had commented how Lord Pentland was a sincere man number four and had a developed king of hearts, or something to that effect. Now contrast this with the Fellowship website, according to which Pentland was the Teacher’s teacher’s teacher. The Teacher’s teacher’s teacher, and not even conscious. Sent away with a pillow to ease his sleep.
May 14, 2007 at 10:27 pm
To 103: Thank you Renald for hearing and giving me feedback on the subject itself. Flattery is what I think does not help us, but feedback like yours is communication.
To the Sheik,
I wish to thank you for having opened another page for my aim to help address areas of the Fellowship that I though needed deeper addressing and move out of the bickering of the blog. I was also hoping it would be a sight that appeared where ever on the internet one searched for the Fellowship of Friends so that those searching would find not only the Fellowship view of itself but more questioning sites.
Going through that exercise I found even the blog appears way down the list and the FoF propaganda outrides the possibilities of more questioning sites.
Coming from a third world country I realize how easy it is for people to not find a more questioning site, I never even knew about the possibility of blogs and the fact that the sketchbook is only available from within the blog itself is not going to help much.
Still I thank you for having run along with me in my need to say something besides defending myself from the detractors of what I was trying to say.
Almost a month and a half has passed since I left the Fellowship and my position has moved close to 180 degrees south. In my naive conviction that something could change if we all understood our situation, in the hope of keeping the marriage I had committed to if there were any changes, I was desperate to talk but I am not desperate now. My desire to make a selection from the blog to make it easier for students to read what needs to be read, has much diminished, or the wish to save or convince anyone of the things I know for myself has also much waned. The blog, even with all its bickering, already contains more than enough of what needs to be looked at. Like eating bony fish, each one can discard his own bones.
I beg you forgive me if I’ve given you extra work and a little more work in letting you know that you can delete, erase, or do whatever you wish with the sketchbook because at this point I’ll be happy to continue participating in the blog without making any further efforts to make it easier for those inside to listen to me or others. I am leaving faster than I thought and wish to open myself to “life”.
Again I thank you and will continue to support your work with the blog.
May 14, 2007 at 10:33 pm
#89 Elena
Thank you for that post. I have thought about those parallels also. It is striking that Girard would say something like that. There is a link to a site on Mark H. #8-323 that addresses similar things in Rashneesh’s group.
Dick moron. I agree with you about “Little Children”. Definitely worth viewing.
Anyone see last episode of the “Sopranos”. Some of the most powerful t.v. especially the last 20 minutes- Tony’s son with the therapist and Tony at the casino and afterwards. It is really fascinating watching what the writers are doing with AJ.
May 14, 2007 at 11:01 pm
Bruce, #112
“RB and Pentland sort of had this humility competition going on,with their own humility “acts”… Actually,I came away feeling Pentland was closer to the ideas. Just my opinion.”
Bruce, Hi. I’d forgotten about the “my humility is bigger than yours” competition, ROTFL. Your comments are dead on, as I remember it. Pentland had a kind of gravity and thoughtfulness that impressed, and Needleman was hilarious bouncing around in the back of a pickup touring the vineyard. Thanks.
JoelF
May 14, 2007 at 11:13 pm
Hello “youmeusthey” (111),
Can you elaborate? It could be that some others understand what you are conveying, but I don’t.
For example (just one example of what I find unclear in your post), what do you mean by, “Can we let go?”
Who is we? What does “let go” mean? And what are we letting go of? And are you ASKING us if we can let go, or are you TELLING us that you believe we should let go?
I don’t mean to single you out… because I’ve seen a lot of posts like this, where I end up guessing what the writer meant, and after a few seconds simply give up trying to understand it and move on. However, if you can elaborate or describe your viewpoint in different words (more directly), I’d appreciate it.
May 14, 2007 at 11:15 pm
Shaman (#33)
On the continuing necessity of three lines of work:
“Three lines of work” is a conceptual grid offered by one tradition, the Gurdjieff/Ouspensky version of the “4th Way.” It’s only one of many such grids superimposed over reality. Try translating your understanding of the “three lines” into other language. Instead of “second line,” how about “relating to other beings in a compassionate, constructive manner, treating them as you would like to be treated, trying to help them realize their potential.” Instead of “third line,” how about “serving the community, so that everyone has an opportunity to live a more productive life.”
Do we need to be of service, or compassionate and constructive, in order to “keep evolving”? Or is it fine to be self-absorbed, focused solely on our personal salvation, until we reach the “goal”?
So what do you suppose is the point of “reaching the goal”? To check out? To exist in a state of perpetual orgasm? To be free from having to make an effort ever again?
Other traditions have addressed this question (and after all, Gurdjieff didn’t develop his grids in a vacuum). For example, one fundamental difference between Mahayana Buddhism (of which zen is one form, and out of which tantric Buddhism developed) and the practices that had preceeded it for centuries is that in Mahayana Buddhism, the practitioner vows to work for the benefit of all other beings, and to put off his own final release until that occurs. Before that, it was accepted doctrine that one worked for one’s own “evolution.” So those who developed Mahayana Buddhism, which then spread throughout Asia, apparently concluded that service to others was an intrinsic, indispensible part of the path to an extent not previously acknowledged by doctrine.
According to tradition, after his enlightenment the Buddha was not inclined to teach; he felt that people could not understand. He was persuaded otherwise by a divine spirit, Brahma Sahampati.
My own interpretation: initial reluctance notwithstanding, the Buddha’s own compassion, an aspect of his own consciousness, compelled him to serve others for the rest of his life. Buddhists before Mahayana were not necessarily lacking in this same understanding, but as in any tradition, doctrines have a way of calcifying and need to be periodically renewed. The same happened in Judaism when Jesus came along and reemphasized the need to “love thy neighbor” (not “love thy dues-paying FoF student”), and again when the Baal Shem Tov taught what became Hasidism.
Service, whether to other people, animals, the community, the truth, is not a tool for evolution. It is an expression of one’s own higher understanding, as well as a means to deepen that understanding. Service is an opportunity, a gift.
Anonymous (#45)
“>Consciousness is primordial and permanent.”
“This is a theory that cannot be verified.”
Anonymous, it is a fact you have not yet verified. As I have more sympathy with Mahayana Buddhism than that aspect of Fourth Way doctrine that teaches that all but the Elect become “food for the moon,” I expect that you will verify it.
May 14, 2007 at 11:16 pm
#100 Kid Shelleen
Whoa! You got me reeling on the back of my horse with that one! “You should see them from this side.”
When I saw that he came out with that book I was glad despite my mixed emotions toward Mr. Hitchens.
IMO the answer is yes to your invitation to discuss. It seems to me that atheists may be a little closer to the truth than believers. One less layer of delusional concepts. The question then comes up could they remain atheists after they awakened? Sure why not?
May 14, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Comments for Anonymous (#9-46)
Regarding your claim, “FOF is the fourth way as it now is…” ——Really? REALLY?
I’d be interested to see your list of verifications to support your statements of “fact”, dear Anonymous! And I’m not being facetious.
Regarding your post to Arthur (#9-70), it is plain you just don’t get it, or are pretending to not get it. I haven’t met or read that anyone is concerned with Burton’s sexual orientation or appetite (except perhaps as a symptom of something more important, in the case of the satyriasis). The concern is, the UNEQUAL POWER. Burton chooses weak young men who have little personal power or sense of self-worth. They have been persuaded to give up their will to their teacher. On the other hand, Burton has a great deal of power. So, the relationship cannot be between two equals, equal in power. Thus it follows that there is coercion, and harm follows coercion. It doesn’t matter if there is lots of accompanying flattery or wine or rewards, or even if the victim apparently gives his consent. Do you get it now? I know, after 25 years (#9-82) of denial and formatory responses, the chances are slim, but surely you do understand that your red herrings of ‘subjective morality’ or ‘horror of sex’ are obvious to everyone on the blog?
I am here because I feel some responsibility, because I might be able to help (I hope this blog or an archive will be available far into the future ‘at the touch of a button’ as a resource for anyone needing it), and because it is helping me understand myself and others better. Maybe there is bitterness for some, but with it goes a chance of healing. Look at the changes already in the tone of some of the participants as they work through their grief and anger. I wasn’t in love with the FOF, I was in love with the potential of the FOF, a very big difference. Read Elena’s wonderful post (#9-85) again to get a sense of that. And I am deeply grateful for my experiences in the FOF; there I learned to recognize and value my conscience, with all that implies. Joining was the best thing I could have done at that time; in fact it was the only thing, since that is what happened. Leaving was the same, only the reasons were far clearer—and I made the leap with the counsel of my conscience, the voice of the godhead within.
With love to all,
Ames
May 14, 2007 at 11:49 pm
Here’s more on the Pentland/Burton pillow story. The following excerpt is from p. 12 of “Taking with the Left Hand: Enneagram Craze, People of the Bookmark [that would be us], and the Mouravieff Phenomenon”, written by William Patrick Patterson, published in 1998:
****************************
Though I never met Burton, I did meet a man who was a member of his inner circle and who was present when Lord Pentland visited Burton. The film version of Meetings with Remarkable Men had been released and Burton had his students passing out flyers for Burton’s centers to film-goers. Burton believed Pentland was coming to hand over his students to him because he had recognized Burton’s “higher development” — Burton claims his is the highest consciousness man can attain. Burton even made a bet to this effect with several of his own students. In fact, Lord Pentland was coming to ask Burton to make a sizable contribution to the film inasmuch as he was falsely profiting by it. Upon Pentland’s arrival, Burton presented him with an expensive sleeping pillow. This was Burton’s idea of an esoteric joke. Several of Burton’s close students joined the two men for dinner. “Watching the two of them together, there was just no question of which man was awake and which was asleep,” the former Burton student told me, “and I left the next day to become a student of Lord Pentland’s.”
May 14, 2007 at 11:50 pm
#72 Sheik
Jacob Needleman in his book “Why Can’t We Be Good” gives an example of an exercise that he tried, where 2 students having opposite opinions on a sensitive subject were asked to do the following; one person would clearly state their position on the subject and before the other person could respond with their position they had to repeat as clearly as possible back to the first person the opinion that was just expressed. Then the second person expressed their opinion and the first person had to repeat back. This exercise forced each person to listen and digest the other person’s formulation before responding. Very powerful.
#95 Traveler #106 dick moron
Lord Pentland was a student of Ouspensky for 10 years and went to Gurdjieff (as did many of Ouspensky’s students) after O died. He worked with G for a year and was primarily a student of Madame DS. He was part of the early formation of the Gurdjieff Foundation and was uniquely suited (financially and personally) to help organize and run the New York branch of the Foundation. He later started a branch in San Francisco and Los Angeles.
After leaving fof I corresponded with Lord Pentland, as well as other students of Ouspensky, and had the opportunity to meet him and attend meetings that he conducted in Los Angeles.
I don’t think the Foundation per se looks down on Ouspensky, after all they use In Search and other O books, rather they just don’t put him on the same level as G.
Lord P visited FOF asking for donations to help fund the production of the movie Meetings With Remarkable Men. There was a flurry of excitement at Renaissance at the time because it was rumored that we would be getting movement teachers from the Foundation. All of that came to naught because RB withheld support for the movie, which probably was just as well because in James Moore’s words, “the movie was stillborn”. Anyone who has seen it can surely attest to the poor quality of the thing.
Perhaps in a future post I will tell of the people and groups I was able to contact after leaving fof. The first generation students are all gone now and the second generation students are aging (myself included)and it is truly a shame that so many wonderful people will never be known by current and future generations of 4th way students. It is a rich and varied history. And by the way, there have been tens of thousands of 4th way people who were never affiliated with fof.
Best to you all
Steve Anderson
May 15, 2007 at 2:57 am
Dear Anonymous, re#79
Suggesting that people damaged by RB’s manipulation are just “upset” and that
negative reactions to the steady stream of abuse stories come merely from the subjective morality of the sexually repressed, makes you in my opinion, the sickest, “mo fo” to have turned up here so far.
Meanwhile over on Wikipedia, the unbelievably insincere statement below has been included to explain away RB’s predictions.
“Response to critical view of predictions;
There are several places in Burton’s book where world war is mentioned. The word “war”, can be used symbolically. Symbolism is a common method of esoteric teaching. He says:
“Hydrogen warfare seems inevitable, and one no longer has to be a prophet to predict it”. [29]
Since the Fourth Way teaching says that different levels of hydrogens rule over different bodies in man [| See section on Higher Bodies], the “inevitable hydrogen warfare” Burton mentions in his book ” might well be related to this “civil war within”, since it is common for spiritual teachers to talk in parables.”
There’s a small gang of people in the FOF responsible for the Wikipedia statement and the Howard Carter, Siddiq, Anonymous tag teams. They meet regularly and obviously have a plan. Exactly why, when the whole organisation is gasping for honesty these people choose to continue to mislead is hard to understand, it’s trickle down lying and it starts from the top.
May 15, 2007 at 4:39 am
Regarding Traveler Says 9/95.
I have a close family member who was a student of Alex Horn for a number of years. He says that Alex never claimed he had a direct connection to Ouspensky or Gurdjieff.
FoF member 1978 to 1994
May 15, 2007 at 8:53 am
I guess it is clear that our white-robed new guru, former friend, Mr. Kiran (a.k.a. Ulrich Schmidt) does consider it far beneath him to address the reasonable questions posed by RSVP on the last page.
I do not care for the many responses by people who do so obviously not have a clue but do not seem to be bothered by a little detail, called TRUTH–still important to some of us.
In my book Kiran’s non-response simply proves he is admitting by his deafening silence that there is absolutely no basis for his slanderous and scandalous accusations about Abraham and Robert and probably also the accusations about being ripped off by his business partners at the time (HS and TS)–all NONSENSE, lies and a cheap ploy to arouse our disgust for the FOF. It is not working bubba.
and what is more, ALL Kiran’s postings are now seriously in doubt (especially his stories about what happened, not to mention the insincere flattering of the sheik–please where can we send donations!–give me a break!) and I for one consider Kiran nothing but a cheap charlatan, a liar and a slanderer–not worthy of any respect.
Readers, consider, if a man cannot be truthful about one thing, he cannot be trusted about other matters.
Kiran, you wrote a lot about your coma, I truly hope you will come out of the aftermath of it and have the guts and the simple decency to admit you were lying (talking without knowing the truth and just unsupported assumptions).
And here is another little fact that seems to be overlooked by Kiran and his misguided admirers: the people who visited him in Cairo, nursed him, took care of him, helped him and his family, including Abraham and Robert, were doing so out of friendship–NOT for some alterior motive. I know. There were many.
Look Both Ways
May 15, 2007 at 9:10 am
“The problem is all inside your head”,
he said to me,
“The answer’s easy, dear,
just trust influence C!”
(Let me help you in your struggle to be free,
There must be 50 ways to leave a teacher)
He said, “It’s really not my habit to drink splooge,
Furthermore, I hope my meaning won’t be lost or misconstrued.
“But let me go first”, (cuz he’s a sleazy dude)
Thank God there’s 50 ways to leave a teacher
50 ways to leave a teacher
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new aim, James
You don’t need to be gay, Ray
Just cut your soul free.
Hop off the bus, Gus
You don’t need to discuss much
He’ll promise you the school, Fool
Just cut your soul free
He said, “It peeves me so to see you in such pain,
But man cannot do, dear, can you just cum again?”
I said, “No thanks, but would please explain,
About the 44 angels?”
He said, “Why don’t you just sleep with me tonight?
And I believe in the morning you’ll begin to see the light.”
And then he kissed me,
Then I realized,
no one cares about my plight!
Thank God there’s 50 ways to leave a teacher
50 ways to leave a teacher
You just slip out the back, Jack
Make a new aim, James
You don’t need to be gay, Ray
Just cut your soul free
Hop off the bus, Gus
You don’t need to discuss much
He’ll promise you the school, Fool
Just cut your soul free
******************
Like others how mentioned, I also dreaded when I was “on duty” at the academy. I couldn’t get behind the symbolic way RB was feeding on our sex energy at night, in the dark. I made the effort to give up my will, but the sex was just so not me. I felt something in me shift to the side, not open up, and that made me feel gross. I think the tipping point in my ‘relationship’ with RB was when he told me late one night that the school would be mine. It felt like he was playing up to my vanity. It just gave me the creeps when he said that. He took me for a fool. I also had reason to suspect he was arranging a relationship for me with a loyal female student, so that he could maintain access to me. I had to take my destiny into my own hands.
Thanks to JoelF, for your disclosure about what RB said to you on the drive to LA. about being the next man number 5. I really appreciate that you shared that tidbit! A pattern is beginning to emerge. I wonder to whom else RB told that? I remember you, BTW. I attended a meeting you lead at Renaissance once, you’d filter the angles for everyone by playing umpire, calling this angle a slider, this one is a curve ball. Some people were entertained. Were you a Yankees fan? In your post #107 I realize you were making a point to someone else. Please don’t lump me with the others and shed doubt on my story when I poured my soul out on this blog. I was the eyes and ears for the rest of us in there. Working together, we can sort through the bits and pieces to get a clearer picture of the deception that RB foisted upon us. That’s how he keeps the FOF going for so many years; he only reveals himself a little at a time, keeping people at a distance. I am not hiding behind my anonymity. It is for my protection; it’s not a ruse. I don’t care what you think about anyone else, I’ll stand up for myself. I want you to know I’m am being sincere and telling the truth. Can you feel that?
I remember the first gift RB gave me, before the funny business started. It was a gold plated watch. Now in some traditional eastern spiritual circles, a present from a teacher has great meaning. It is endowed with the teacher’s energy. I was sincerely thankful, and gave RB a nice, warm, big hug. He said, “It’s only a cheap watch, dear.” I suddenly felt cheapened, too. It was a jab to the pit of my stomach, like something else would be expected from me to get a better gift. He was right, though, the watch fell apart about a year later.
**************************
To Rita: Thanks for your acknowledgment. Welcome to the land of the free!
Ann Onymous: Thanks for your acknowledgment, too. Let your conscience be your guide always and everywhere. You are wise to listen to it, otherwise it shrinks.
To Gabriella F: Thanks for your story; it will help others to find the beauty in life.
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 15, 2007 at 9:29 am
Dear Kiran,
I just found this forum two weeks ago. Since then I was reading messages. I am not a member of the FOF, yet I have a general idea about the 4th Way teaching out of reading. My inner experience of myself is based on going through major illnesses throughout my entire life. I deeply know it is part of my fate and I do not compline anymore, which is the greatest relief I have ever had. I have been on the boarder of death several times and for me there is no school better than that. I was reading about your experiences with mistreat. It sounds quite unpleasant. No one can know how bad or how unfair it really was since no one can stand in somebody else’s place. These experiences can only be judged within a person’s own self. Only you can sincerely say to yourself how much of what took place there was caused by other people’s weaknesses and how much of it came through your weaknesses. It reminded me of what Gurdjieff said about people who were deliberately being mistreated and were asked to leave his group. Gurdjieff said that an honest person would still act in an honest way even in such unpleasant circumstances. I also remember reading somewhere (maybe Ouspensky) that ‘the worse thing that can happen to one is that he is right’. As I said, you are the only one who can sincerely know.
Eli
May 15, 2007 at 10:18 am
Keith (126): That’s one hell of a great exercise.
Look Both Ways (129): Reading your comments (and especially the latest one) I felt that a more appropriate way of calling yourself would have been to use the name ‘Look My Way (and share in the bitterness)’. The name ‘Look Both Ways’ implies a non-judgamental attitude and objectivity, of which you possess very little. I find your comment entirely distasteful, even though, as you very well know, I am not the slightest bit a fan of Kiran. I would also like to point out that very often people do not feel the need to show more proof after they have said their thing, simply because they have said their thing in its entirety and it is up to the reader to make up his mind. This, to me, shows a lot of maturity.
May 15, 2007 at 10:25 am
to dick moron 8/450 and
Rita Penfold 9/99
Thank you both for your kind nod.
Anybody tried Parabola Magazine?
Many who write there were influenced by Lord Pentland. http://www.parabola.org
For those of you interested in Peter Brook, director of Meetings with Remarkable Men, try this http://www.gurdjieff.org/nicolescu3.htm
Cheers,
Shelley
May 15, 2007 at 10:27 am
Elena: I have deleted the unnecessary accusations coming from ‘Plain’ and ‘Getting to the Bottom of It’ on the Sketchbook. I have no problem with advertising the sketchbook as a good resource on FoF information on every page of this discussion (in a way that would make new-comers visit it first) as long as the Sketchbook is good and without unnecessary hate, anger, or blame comments. I also feel the need for a shorter, more concise version of the discussion, and I definitely do not think that you should give up! The SketchBook is not a bad idea, but it will take some work.
May 15, 2007 at 11:09 am
To Post #100/9, #118/9,
a look at another chapter in the Lord’s visit to the FoF and an epiphany concerning the FoF’s version of The Gods.
_______________________________
Dear Kid Shelleen:
Everyone is an atheist till their re-minded of God.
Somewhere along the zig-zag road of man’s evolution (see “Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson” for references) certain beings of thoughtful influence moved from god-state aims to god-think aims: the idea of god replaced the ‘I’ of god, hence, the birth of the couch potato, a largely rounded individual with many potato-eyes, who, developing ‘underground’, never really shows what its up to, until ‘forced harvest ‘ brings it to the light of a practical appetite… the FoF is experiencing an early harvest this year… spuds are everywhere.
Don’t worry, be happy, god won’t weigh your brain instead of your heart. As I have experienced the phenomenon, on earth, people who have a fervor for re-minding themselves of god equate with the idea of non-existence, while those who un-mind themselves of god are ‘gods’, i.e., egoists .
Personal, intentional trust in a deity, other than one’s aspirations in Becoming, is a rare find. One question is ~
Can ‘i’ leave god alone and be?
______________________________________
To Elena, Post #118/9
Concerning blog exposure on the internet.
To begin on a constructive memo, as of last week, Rick Ross now has a link to this blog site: I was dumbfounded to find out that he didn’t know about the blog up until Chapter 8, go figure. Rick Ross’s site is #1 on Google when searching for the FoF.
Clara, if you wish to get higher up on the Google ratings with some sort of Journal of FoF, then you have to do the following ~
Create a hosted website, perhaps with GoDaddy.com. With this site, create many links to and from it. Host others, have your site linked by others, (share links with high ranking sites, not just anybody), etc.
You’ll have to probably set up some sort of Paypal donation, because its gonna cost to have it post higher on the ranking pages and to maintain it: call Google, they’ll tell you what you need to know concerning getting it to rank high.
Advertising other ex-students services and businesses on the site would be another way of getting support; though this blog material is pretty visceral, so, its a bit of a stretch that every business would benefit in PR terms to align itself to it’s particular ‘ambiance’. Yet, there are certain services that would ‘fit right in’ like counseling services, coaching, various therapies and people who simply know that their clients would see such a site as a plus and not controversial.
Don’t worry, be happy, this blog site is growing, not like potatoes, by the good efforts of ‘others’ who are spreading it to key areas throughout the cyber-spiritual-community.
_____________________________________
Something occurred to me today, that I sense will be of interest to current and not so current FoF students… An epiphany,
I like these occurrences, the mind can be a sort of celestial fax machine at times.
So here goes ~
For a very long time it has been the belief of FoF students that C-Influence, i.e., 44+ celestial beings, having escaped the circle in mechanical incarnations, thusly moving about freely within the cramp confounds of our solar system, are assisting and ‘positively’ supporting the FoF, its form, its teacher, its ‘way’, mapping out a new race, a new civilization. If anyone can show me a new civilization who does not have its roots or ash-phoenix from a previous one’s sweat, blood and transformed suffering, I will humbly serve your deified incarnation as a spiritual-butler, chauffeur, or gardener for a 50% reduced rate.
So, we see that this ‘new civilization’ is simply another of RB’s affirmations, an externalized symbol of what can only happen within a single person, one at a time, not without an enormous humility and conscious recognition of having once been a professional idiot.
This is not the ‘aha’ though.
It dawned on me that all of us carry around some form of celestial connection, regardless of the level of being in its realized outward form, i.e., how big of a part it actually plays in one’s practical and personal experiential-time here on earth.
Now, with this ‘little luggage’ (one’s personal relationship to ‘up there’), one enters a so called ‘esoteric school’, finding ‘big luggage’ to put one’s ‘little luggage’ into: yet, that ‘little luggage’ has not actually changed, its simply ‘in there’, i.e., in a different context.
There’s allot of excitement within the process of growing up: parties, volley ball, deep coffee talk, republican presidential races, adopting retired gray hounds, watching baby birds hatch, growing your own tea leaves, golf and loving life.
Inside all this there is an eagerness to share, to go towards some ‘bigger aim’ than one’s circular habits. Personal gain is a mysterious area, its tricky to confirm the intension’s before and afterwards…That’s why I like ‘actually meeting’ people who ‘think’ their important: they are very good at thinking their important, though ‘being’ important is a totally different ‘triad’… It’s quiet, unspeakable, requires no thought.
So, it came to me that, as I have watched hundreds travel down the FoF ‘path-way”, with ‘big luggage’ in hand, that 99% of all that they have verified concerning C-Influence has been through the faculty of mind, personal interpretation, semantics, a habit to see omens as ‘personal’, the emotional center being so fast that one does not see the construction of ‘personal’ after the ‘omen’ appears ‘true’ and ‘clean’.
It also occurred to me that C-Influence has never directly approached the school as a whole, not for lack of opportunity with all the fund raisers and stuff.
So, I asked myself, “What has C-Influence actually said about all the FoF going ons? Have they ever said ‘yes’ to that and ‘no’ to some other ‘that’? Have they initialed, personalized any one format or attitude adopted by anyone in the FoF? Have they ever said ‘This is what we wish, That is what we don’t wish?’
For me, through my whole life the answer must be ‘no’ to all of these, for I must be true to the admission of my conscience that whenever I have drawn an affirmative, communicative positive or negative, attaching C-Influence as the perpetrator’s of some ‘omen’, to its meaning or direction, it has been ‘I’, me, who has written the article under the Headline.
Again, through communications from my conscience have lead me to believe and sense this way or that way concerning the ‘shocks’ placed by the celestial, steering me here and there. One can build a lifestyle around having god as a neighbor, yet, do you really know what he does on Sundays?
I could not believe it! Wow! What an Aha!
That when a student asked a question to the gods, perhaps later a ‘sign’ would occur…
For instance, concerning RB’s infra sex issues ~ A student asked C-Influence about this, the next day they were walking down the street, stopping, peering inside a shop’s window, saw a pornographic video tape showing various scenes with the number of the video being 44 …
Thus, in their mind, this meant that C-Influence was creating the play, the movie, etc., somehow this justified the existence of ‘the play’ in the FoF, no matter ‘the plays’ inner-meaning or outwards repercussions upon the essential feeling-body of others …
Yet, the level of the student’s being had ‘conveniently’ left a few things out, like, the actual event itself, what ‘it’ really is in context to RB and the FoF aim to create spiritual, graduated individuals.
The interpretation of the ‘affirmative ok’ was based solely on the receiver’s subjectivity and non participation in all levels of FoF affairs, it is a far removed point-of-view, as they say, all is icing if your inside the cake. So apply this for awhile, follow your tracks and if your a new student, don’t go using bread crumbs to mark your Path.
How would a more objective look at this ‘shock’ spin it?
For starters, we see, not what we want to see, rather, what we can see and have to see. Regret is simply impatience, inertia of the mind in the now. As I see it, the picture said nothing, meant nothing, it simply affirmed the existence of the form and only the form, as a creation by the gods to serve some means, though not to an end, rather to the beginning of our presence.
How else could it be: why would immortal beings have the Formatory Apparatus as part of their bath kit?
We see in the omen that which either supports our ‘personal’ work or ‘personal’ inertia, no more or less, it happens in the moment and is relative only to the now as it happens to oneself, applying an omen to a group of people from a personal point of view is, well, silly.
The FoF is reaping the fruits of RB’s ignorance with this spiritual-tool: visions are for the visionary, not for people addicted to watching anything that comes on TV. The only hydrogen-warfare that’s truly taking place or ever will, is the intentional suffering within you.
As we grow up, these ‘shocks’ become more profound, less important or meaningful, yet the depth has always been there, it is us, our growth whose bring to them a new level of being in their midst.
The same goes for judging one’s parents, all is hell and brimstone so far as their injustice’s and ignorance, till one finds oneself at the beginning of the parental role, then, slowly, it dawns on one that he or she did their very best with exactly the ‘little luggage’ they had, after all, we can do no different with ours.
Everything is relative, FoF students have yet to be possessed with this level of spiritual responsibility from RB, the task of being without form-meaning, yet, as Rilke said “We are transformers of the invisible.” So, logically we must first be idiots before angels.
The form of the FoF is pure as new snow, it is its ‘meaning’ its ‘context’ and ‘personal application’ that’s corrupted.
Nearly any objectively sprinkled form will do, so long as the in-former remains transparent, RB, from the very first day of the formation of the FoF, then Mt. Carmel, has been as transparent as a bowling ball.
Go deeper into this idea of form and you’ll find that its the ‘idea’ of the form that’s missing the objectivity needed to move through it and beyond, likewise with omens, signs and visions.
Someday it will be a big ‘shock’ when god is asked about the meaning of crop circles, when ‘he’ laughs, saying, “I was just doodling, you doodle don’t you, go figure.”
_______________________________
On Lord Pentland’s arrival to FoF ~
RB entered his room (stood at the doorway), as the Lord was taking a nap, seeing that he was sleeping with his feet sticking out beyond the surface of the mattress, still wearing shoes, RB commented to a student that this was proof that he was inner considering.
To me, it just looks like he fell asleep with his shoes on.
The Pain body can find pain anywhere: it loves to shop for drama and the FoF is expert at this shopping for pain, painful juxtapositions, painful contradictions, painful teacher, painful evolution, painful photographs, painful sex, painful friends, etc.
Yet, step back, take away the ‘painful’ and you have your ‘little luggage’ back, in hand, your ready to graduate, move on, keep it ‘little’; as O., would say,
“Big enough to fit in your pocket.”
Love to you all.
May 15, 2007 at 11:25 am
Dear Wonder in Alice and Friends,
You ask: “Isn’t conscience involved in telling the truth? Valuing the people receiving the information enough to tell the truth?”
Wouldn’t you say that no body lies consciously? That there have to be enough buffers in place to believe in what one is doing?
It is clear to me that I supported the Fellowship for as long as I believed Robert was a conscious being. That was the big lie. It was enough to try to transform, for seventeen years, the fact that at least I, was not “good enough” to belong to the Fellowship that he had created. Isn’t that what is really appalling about the willingness to believe that someone else is superior to one’s self?
To live the lie that to know one’s presence one needs to be in the presence of the other. I never believed that one, that is, I never went to a meeting or a dinner because it made me more present, I went to see the teacher. The show was good until the tone became clearly dogmatic. I had verified during the first year that presence is a consistent affirmation of the divine within each one of us and sincerely believed Robert’s Fellowship was an affirmation…..(The beauty, bit fake and off but it was student’s work)…….until I started listening to the way he consistently emphasized the lower self and then I knew it was subliminal indoctrination. But that was only after he’d blown me away with Dorothy. The indoctrination sounds as though he is talking about the six billion dead people on the planet but it is really talking to his students, reinforcing the separation between himself and them because of their lower self, and then he adopts all other forms to confirm the difference in status.
But didn’t I play the same game? Didn’t I participate in Girard’s dinners and events for four years, two and three times a week, supporting and loving a man who was as willing as Robert to hold himself above the rest? Did I not photograph the servers for not being careful enough to look when he had finished his meal before they took his plate? Did I not tie his shoes in private and in public and embrace his ankles with my hands?
Was giving up all our time not what was expected even if it was at the cost of our eternity? Between sixteen hours of Dorothy and Girards events, did I not end up neglecting to call anyone to private dinners in our house and settled for those few who consistently supported Girard’s events, supporting unconditionally his teacher, the LCSchool, the Arts, his students, many who, like Harriet thought I was taking too much space from the conscious being who had had the bad luck to marry me, because we sincerely struggled to help the other understand the consciousness that we had given our life to.
There are no conscious lies, Wondering Alice. There are only two lies embodied in the being of Robert and Girard and the rest of us are willing to lick the floor with our tongue to get a glimpse of their heart. The “pea size” heart, as the two of us laughed lovingly, convinced that it was growing.
For those of us who come from abroad with the dream that we’ll get to hear at least one of the conscious beings if the other one is too busy for insignificant beings like one, then the opportunity to sit in a symposium is grand and to marry him, even if one knows that he’s still far from being as conscious as Robert, is like stardust falling from heaven.
The real lie is in each of the ones who are willing to give themselves up for another. That is the germ in which the Cult can develop. The other two sit and pretend that the other is more conscious than himself and who could ever say that they are lying when they are only saying it to each other, about each other, and what one is so enchanted by is the love between them? The kiss in the forehead?
Who could prove that a narcissistic sex maniac is lying when he tells the sucker beneath him that he is an angel?
Or, who would dare to lie that Girard is not the conscious being that Robert promised and remind us of all the promised lies?
But where is the need for so much mystery when the real lie is chanted in chorus by every student, screaming out in butterfly garments their absolute conviction that the narcissistic sex maniac is a conscious being and the second conscious being gives his life to defend it with his unconditional theory that we, the students, cannot understand the functions of a conscious man, so that he himself can discard any student in the Fellowship because he/she is just a “function”, “a role”, “an I”, amongst the many in this conscious play, so that he himself can justify his own uncontrollable addiction?
Of course, they, in the inner circle all knew about his addiction but who would they tell? So many students trusted him, why would they tell? But Robert, instead of telling, used us as the scapegoats. He sits Girard in front of the meetings so that he doesn’t have to sit me anywhere, he pretends to give him his hand but takes the carpet from under his feet, the symposiums, Sea Ranch, are banned and slowly he is replaced by Asaf so that those who know can buy into Robert’s morality in chastising Girard’s immorality. Robert, chastising Girard’s inmorality so that he can continue to get away with his own, setting up a whole new generation of pimps. But to make it look even more legitimate, he sacrifices two or three more of his closest friends in the inner circle, who are too confused to understand the riddle.
But it looks good. It looks great in silk clothes and leather shoes. It looks legitimate, no matter at whose cost.
You see Wonder in Lust, when Cynthia found out that I was going out with Girard, she called me and told me that Girard was addicted to porno, child porno. I was of course shocked but precisely the day before, Girard had told me he would go back to his wife Cynthia and stop our relation, I had thanked him and accepted it. A month later he wrote to me and a week later he moved in with me. I did not know to what extent what Cynthia had said was true and even if it was true, I was convinced that the Fellowship was a conscious school, that Robert was a conscious being, that Girard was to become conscious and that with real love Girard would work himself out of such a horrible addiction, if it was as horrible as Cynthia put it, which I had reason to doubt. Of course I was terrified but at the same time I thought I was a hero serving the school!
I, myself had been bisexual for thirty years, I was in a gay man’s school who walked around with his multiple lovers, who was I to judge Girard for watching porno although he’d only actually slept with five women or so he’d told me? I am laughing at the degree of my stupidity but if you realize that I then picked Dorothy, an eighty six year old woman with alzheimer and then picked a manic depressive with a rabit who’d tried to kill herself three times, when I had only tried twice, and then picked another young woman with no less difficulties, you might understand that no one for me is bad enough to not be embraced and I do not mind if it is my stupidity or my lunatic. The king of hearts, mercury saturn, narcissistic sex maniac is not that much more convincing than any body else.
And then, Girard loved me. He loved me every bit of the way in his own very particular form. A form in which I was unconditionally loved as long as I unconditionally denied myself and supported him and Robert. The same that is required of every student, and I did, but only for four years. Then I was simply too exhausted to continue, didn’t have more being to give.
But you must believe me above everything else for it is not a lie, that Girard and I deeply loved each other like a man and a woman without any porno, even though he was unable to make room for a woman in his gay teacher’s school.
Where is the lie in a man that loves in the only way that he knows to love, even if there is no love in his love?
Where is the lie in the love of a man for his teacher when he has to deny everybody else’s presence?
Where is the conscious love of a teacher when he has to separate lovers and sacrifice friends for his own sake? When he makes pimps out of his students?
May 15, 2007 at 11:32 am
p.s. to my last post.
I’ve never lied to my children so why would I lie to you or be afraid of what I am saying?
May 15, 2007 at 12:49 pm
102: Kiran
You post is an excellent example of what it condemns.
—————-
As for the one-liners: the best way to deal with large ballons of hot air is to use a small pin.
May 15, 2007 at 1:53 pm
127: Poo-Poo
I’m not sure what it is that bothers you about sex between adults.
As I see it, your post contains two instructive examples of the abuse of sex: A moralistic indignation, and a referring to a poor anonymous poster as “the sickest, “mo fo” to have turned up here so far”.
It also contains a good example of lying (in the 4th Way meaning of making pronouncements concerning things you don’t know). I haven’t a clue who Carter, Siddiq, et al are, and there is no ‘small gang’ in FoF responsible for my posts. You might be a bit paranoid on that one.
As for the stuff on Wikipedia you refer to – which I haven’t read, but will take your word for it — I agree with you fully. If someone in the school is explaining away failed predictions as ‘symbolic talk’ which didn’t mean literally what it said at the time, I would consider that total nonsense.
At the same time, failed predictions are important only to those who give them importance. I didn’t join the school because of any predictions and I didn’t/don’t stay in it because of any predictions. Actually, it’s a good thing the predictions failed to materialise: not only because there’s no joy in seeing people fall in the sea or get atomised, but also because it shed those for whom predictions assumed undue importance. The end result was increased focus on what matters.
May 15, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Up to the reader to make up his or her mind? exactly–is that not where a minimum of truthful reporting comes in? There are simple and basic facts here that are being blatantly lied about on this blog.
If most do not care about the truth, that is their business, I care and many others do. A simple explanation or retraction would serve better in some cases, as people’s “opinions” are of course based on what they read.
Example, if Whalerider is making up his story, what is it worth? Same for Inner Circle facts, etc. This is not a free-for-all-make-it-up-as you-go-along, or perhaps it is and I am entirely mistaken.
Kiran is the worst example trying to get mileage from his dead wife and her friend–it is a little distasteful. To have the efforts of literally dozens of students smeared who tried to help Kiran after the accident is becoming an ugly joke. As this blog proves, the joke is on Kiran and all the gullible readers.
I look both ways, and try to be objective about it. Thanks for posting.
May 15, 2007 at 5:28 pm
To: Look Both Ways 9/129
You said – “Readers, consider, if a man cannot be truthful about one thing, he cannot be trusted about other matters.”
Does this apply to Robert Burton?
It’s interesting that the word succubus contains, in the right order, the words Self Crowned Conscious Being.
May 15, 2007 at 7:07 pm
The most amazing thing after leaving the FOF – that nothing bad actually happened. In fact – I was surprised, how uneventful and easy the departure was, like so no big deal… I was expecting very bad things to happen to me if I leave, since that’s what you are told happens to people who left. I honestly was very afraid of huge emotional pain, loneliness, disconnection, punishment from higher forces, loss of direction and meaning to my life. I really honestly thought that “There is nothing out there”. (Ha-ha!)
Well, how nice to see that it’s not so! In fact – not at all. It’s was great to discover that actually nothing bad happen if you leave. None of the things I was afraid of had occurred. In fact, I got connected to more friends, have more fun, spend lots of time doing things I really like, my business is doing just great, and there is so much beauty and meaning in life just as it is, un-keyed…
What’s gone – is fear. In fact it is so completely gone – only now can I see how many layers of my life during FOF years were completely saturated with fear and guilt! Even eating alone and catching myself forgetting this damn third bite made me feel so bad about myself. Like I failed something. Yes, I was not supposed to feel this – but unfortunately I always did, and it was like a circle of guilt and self-deprecation. It’s amazing, how a “school for awakening” can gradually make you feel so unsure, scared, contrived and guilty about the smallest things in your life. It’s like the natural joy of living was being replaced with joyless controlled rituals and success/failure of doing them.
I remember calling my friend Stephen shortly after when he left, and asked him how does he feel. And he said something so strange back then – “I feel like I just walked out of prison.” I didn’t quite understand him then, still being a member, but boy do I understand him now. It’s exactly how it feels. Walk out of a stuffy dark room to an open fresh air and feel the wind on your skin. Wake up after a dark dream and smile. Free to simply live your life, not under any one’s questionable “conscious will” or under monitoring of fellow-students who would report you if you “sinned”.
I see now that one’s conscience and common sense are great natural “built-in” guides for one’s life.
Strangely I could only see it after I had to “walk out” and take first breath of fresh air. While inside – some strong buffers are still at work, lots of things are justified, and there is a big fear that there is “nothing out there”.
Good luck, and love to all of you.
May 15, 2007 at 7:26 pm
To Comrade, post 121
You are right, the “can we let go?”,
as offered, is a many questions in one…
All valid and you exposed a rich succession of them.
Actually, I recall perfectly experiencing doubts myself while writing this words
(shall I leave it so or shall I go further ?) and, then, finaly opted for the version all could read in post 111.
“duped”,”victim” or “none” are labels, definitions through which one’s ego attempt to gain “identity”.
As one of the Non Dual teachers said and, I am not quoting word by words here but transfering the idea:
Let me be something! I’ll be anything! I’ll be a Buddhist, I’ll be a Christian… I’ll be antything but nothing!
Could be added: I’ll be a victim! I’ll be duped!
I’ll be none! Anything but nothing!
Can we let go ?
This is a sincere question one can ask oneself.
Meaning, is it possible ?
Now you could still come up with a
“Let go of what?”
I would answer: Whatever!
Let go of the question itself included!
Michelangelo Buonarroti, genious sculptor of all times, viewed his work in a neo platonistic manner. A block of marble, matter, containing a definite life and form (a soul)which was to be freed (from the unecessary).
He prayed… May the hands be guided!
Rilke invited: Be an arrow!
Petrarca had a clear perception of the “weight” of the body, the tireness of carrying it around and the “echo” of the voice of a Friend, opening up a way.
Francis of Assisi spoke about “brother donky”, he talked to birds and trees and, died singing.
Thanks for asking for clarifications, even though I am not sure I brought any clarity here…
Gratitude.
May 15, 2007 at 8:01 pm
On waiting for signs, by storyteller Brian Andreas:
🙂
May 15, 2007 at 8:16 pm
I’ll give it a try #122
“Instead of “second line,” how about “relating to other beings in a compassionate, constructive manner, treating them as you would like to be treated, trying to help them realize their potential.” Instead of “third line,” how about “serving the community, so that everyone has an opportunity to live a more productive life.”
Beautifully said. I’ve found that just the act of doing these “translations” was incredibly powerful in helping me release the “thought Matrix” developed infof and that ruled my mentation for many years. A powerful healing practice.
Keith/Steve #126
Thanks for an informative post. I for one would like to hear your stories of meeting others in the work. And although I also thought the movie rather bad when first viewed, I happened to watch it a couple of years ago and was oddly moved, finding it better and more sincere than I had remembered. The opening sequence of the music competition has stayed with me for many years.
Ryan opoo, #127
The Wikipedia entry is hilarious. Lends more credence to my theory that Burton is a prophet whose specialty is predicting events that have already happened.
Look My Way #129
“Readers, consider, if a man cannot be truthful about one thing, he cannot be trusted about other matters.”
Uhm, I think there’s someone else this applies to? RB?
Whalerider #130
May have been 1986 when the Mets made their amazing run to the World Series? Don’t remember, not a big baseball fan. Couldn’t do that at a meeting now, I guess.
“Please don’t lump me with the others and shed doubt on my story when I poured my soul out on this blog.”
Whalerider, I was trying to point out the difficulty of dealing in an honest way with stories told here. It’s just a simple fact that readers here, unless they have some independent experience of events, have no way of knowing what is accurate and what is not.
That said, I’ve found that your posts ring true to me, and your emotional honesty has been impressive. Given the events you describe, I can understand your desire to remain anonymous, although at some point that might change. Thanks again for your posts.
And thanks for reading
JoelF
May 15, 2007 at 9:56 pm
This blog has taken me back to what it was like the first few months after I departed FoF in 1984. Who knows if my experiences could be helpful to anyone newly out or still deciding, but here they are.
I had pretty much concluded that my soul would not be eaten by the moon and that my possibilities would not end with leaving, so I didn’t have those fears to deal with. I know that eased the transition.
What I remember about the first three months is an incredible sense of lightness, freedom, release and joy alongside crashing depression over what I saw as my own gullibility and feelings of betrayal. The betrayal included being betrayed by myself as well as by the school I trusted. That combination of emotions, coexisting side-by-side, is guaranteed to produce some interesting states.
I remember feeling like a child in a candy store with plenty of pocket money and no parent around. I could experiment with and experience anything I wanted. I didn’t act on that in any extreme way, but it was a wonderful feeling.
Most of the people I was closest to left within the next year or so, and we found our way back to each other, so my concerns about losing my friends were mostly unfounded.
What has been true for me since then is that a spiritual path is a path – something I move forward on rather than stop and stay forever. I’ve been more drawn to paths that are inclusive rather than focusing exclusively on my own consciousness, my evolution, my higher states, my growth, my, my, me, me. It’s not all about me, and the more I understand that, the better it gets.
Have I found any one thing that has all the answers? Nope. Every group or form of study that I’ve found valuable enough to stay and spend some time with has given me a unique piece, and I moved on with more than I arrived with – including FoF.
It is my responsibility to put those pieces together into something that works until a new interesting piece comes along to stir the pot once again. I hope it continues to be that way until I’ve skidded across home base, worn out and happy (or however that goes).
That difficult place of making the decision to go or not and the very mixed feeling of free fall after exiting will not last forever. Eventually, I was able to look back and say, “Well, that was interesting.” I don’t mean to minimize the impact of the Fof experience, but with time, it takes its place in the bigger scheme of the rest of our lives.
Arisha
May 15, 2007 at 10:09 pm
A bit of laughter for your day…..
The hot dog vendor asked the Buddhist monk “what’ll you have?” The monk answered, “Be one with all and everything, my son.”
So, the vendor gave the monk a super dog with the works. After paying, the monk asked the vendor, “Where is my change?”
The vendor replied , “All change comes from within, my son.”
May 15, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Hey
It is time for a great big, global group hug.
C’mon, just close your eys.
Sit up straight.
Take a deeeep breath.
Hold it.
Let it out slowly.
Ready, 1…2…3…close those little peepholes, here we go.
Aaaaah. Doesn’t that feel good.
Now we are all cuddly, happy teletubbies, Conscious little fluffy people with no wories and tubbie toast for breakfast in a shared moment of eternity in teletubbyland.
Loverly.
Have agreat day!
heresay
May 15, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Hello You-me-us-they (143),
Thank you for responding. After making my post, I was later thinking to myself, “Hmm, I wish I had chosen different words,” but I’m glad you responded. It was beautifully put, and much appreciated.
May 15, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Dear Anonymous #139
As you well know, the issue is not about sex between adults.
It is about, serial deception, manipulation and abuse by the deluded Earl of Oregon House.
Your continued obfuscation and dissembling around a simple and deeply disturbing issue goes a long way towards underscoring my
earlier assessment of your character or rather, the lack thereof.
Do please keep posting and focusing on what matters most i.e.
You.
Love,
Ryan
May 15, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Elena, you seem rather unhappy. After re-reading your posts, my opinion (take it or leave it) is that the main source of your unhappiness is ‘internal considering’. I recommend you re-read the section in In Search of the Miraculous on this obstacle that we all share.
When we free ourselves to some extent from internal considering (in the sense of having ‘requirements’ for recognition and identifying with imagined injustices), we are much happier.
If I may be forgiven for inserting a quote from Gurdjieff: “The chief means of happiness in this life is the ability to externally consider always, internally never.”
With the best intentions and wishing you well,
Anonymous
May 15, 2007 at 11:12 pm
To unoanimo #135: your epiphany is coming from your higher intellect. Good job listening to it! The formatory apparatus (in life AKA the associative mind) once it accepts a belief, will look for signs in life to support that belief in an effort to protect the ego or personality structure and resolve any inner conflicts. (RB winds us up with his teachings and numbers game and off we go to do this to ourselves like good little student wind-up toys. Our minds want to run smoothly, (the soul craves harmony) so if the associative mind has accepted a flimsy belief while the critical intellect was disengaged, ie, while in a trance (a state on narrowed and focused attention), the associatve mind will attempt to fortify that flimsy belief with….IDEAS OF REFERENCE…a “shock from c-influence” that one subjectively interpets along party lines (depending on one’s level of being) to ratify the unfounded belief. Welcome to the real world, dude!
To No Person #142: Thank you, Thank you, thank you for your post! You are showing true courage and transforming into a real person before our very eyes! It makes tears well up in my eyes! Let your consciene be your guide, it feels so much more liberating than stuffing feelings, doesn’t it! I commend you for bravery! You are walking the walk instead of just talking the talk.
To SusanK #27: “WhaleRider, I am deeply regretful for the abuse you have suffered. I commend the strength and conviction it took to endure that situation. YET, you harnessed and used that same courage, strength, and conviction to get yourself the hell out of there!”
We are on the same playing field! I had the sense to leave earlier than others only because I didn’t have the sense to keep my distance from RB until I could find out who he really is. I was set up…no one was talking about it because of the gossip exercise.
It’s been a good day!
WhaleRider
1979-1985
PS…if you are having trouble posting, take the cursor out of the text window BEFORE you hit the “submit Comment” Button.
May 15, 2007 at 11:56 pm
After all shocking stories, confessions and debates – the life at Isis continues as it was: meetings, receptions, events, boys. Robert travels, has lunches in town without any fear or shame. Nothing has changed and nothing will change if we turn our backs to it.
Is it possible to collect some evidence that Robert is seducing his students by telling lies, that he abuses his power, that he is not a good guy we all used to believe, that he is a liar and a pervert? Can a professional spy be hired to have some pictures and recordings taken?
How many recorded conversations, pictures, videos have to become public in order to make a difference? “Influence C will give you a Green Card.” “I am an Angel in the human body C influence wants you to have sex with me”
It is one thing to tell the story anonymously and it is another to have records of this.
May 16, 2007 at 12:10 am
#135 Unoanimo
I love to watch magicians. I especially like to go to venues to be up close such as a bar or coffee shop where a local yet highly skillful trickster performs. Watching the crowd one sees a variety of attitudes. There are the skeptics who ignore the show because they “know” it is “just” mis-directed attention and slight-of-hand so they glummily swig their swill or yuk it up with their friends. Then there are those who suspend dis-belief and reel with wonder and just got to know how they do that forgetting that when they find out it won’t be fun anymore. I usually just sit and wait for that wierd space when those 2,3,4 or 5 puffy balls show up in the other hand. Sometimes I think I would like to learn that craft which must take a lot of time and effort to develope.
Sometimes I want to ask you: “How the hell do you do that?” but I don’t really want to know.
Keep showing the tricks!
May 16, 2007 at 12:43 am
Have another look at the wikipedia entry for the Fellowship of Friends, it is starting to look as it should. I had no doubts that the final version would either be more or less impartial or non-existent, it is wikipedia afterall. And as these things go, the FoF wiki will probably very soon rank number 1 on any FoF-related google search. As it should be.
For those of you who think that there is some importance to this discussion, the link to this blog is also back. It is interesting to notice that the link to this discussion is in the criticism section.
Anonymous: I am really sorry. This morning, when I was reading your comment, I finally understood that you are currently incapable of understanding what so many here are trying to tell you/discuss with you (ie. you view what is being said from your limited perspective, unwilling to budge). I do not mean this to demean or belittle you, neither am I trying to be patronizing, I simply believe that you will be deaf to any discussion with the aim of finding a common truth, or at least a meeting point. As this seems true to me at the moment, I will not continue swapping opinions with you. Good luck to you.
Perhaps one last thing. The amount of personal accounts about the FoF and the previous court battles are a sort of a proof, as has been said before. How exactly do you think that people should back-up their personal stories? And why should they wish to? I am quite happy to listen to a number of personal accounts of the same event and make up my own mind. I may not arrive at the truth, but I will do my best.
Well, that has been almost too much activity from me in the last couple of days, back to the hole and to all of you, have fun.
May 16, 2007 at 1:22 am
153…Personally, for me, this would be the wrong process. I think it would be more profound if the FOF just imploded on it’s own dark energy. With enough money and time and slick lawyers almost anyone could be brought down. I think that would be diluting the profound corruption with an outside destructive force, and would detract from the truth. It could just pop up in a different and same form somewhere else. I think it’s the organism of the FOF that’s diseased, and I think it’s own negative impetus will eventually prevail.
But then again, what do I know? Of course Kriananda ended up having to pay $1,000,000 for sexual harassment, but I think his crowd paid for him and he’s still plying his trade.
May 16, 2007 at 2:13 am
Reading some of the surly, defensive posts from such as Anonymous, I’m reminded of when I joined the FoF thirty years ago, and how taken up I was with the FoF trip. Someone posted a link within the couple of weeks to a description of attending prospective student meetings in, I believe, Japan, and it was wonderful, and eerie, and humbling, how similar it was to my own experience. The sense of having stumbled upon something so hidden, so esoteric. Of being more aware, more evolved, than all the sleeping machines wandering the streets as I called my FoF contact from a pay phone; the cloak and dagger suspense of meeting the contact on a snowy street corner, to be driven to remote locations for my prospective student meetings; the students at the meetings dressed as if it were the 1950s; everyone so calm, so seemingly confident they knew the ultimate secret. Everything fraught with significance. And so forth.
I also remember how quickly I bought in to the notion that I had become a member of the ultimate secret society, how willing I was to start thinking of my family and friends as hapless life people, to be manipulated if possible, tolerated at best. I remember how heady it felt to be clearing trees at Renaissance, how glorious to be a part of the Great Work. It really was the most powerful vanity trip I’ve ever experienced, in which someone, no matter how modest his talents or accomplishments, could imagine himself one of the elite on earth. Considering this, teaching payments were a bargain.
I also remember a student attending my first meetings for several months who made somewhat bitter, cryptic statements about how Robert wasn’t what everyone seemed to think he was–at the time I hadn’t even met Robert, and had no idea what she was talking about, but I naturally repreated to myself the lines from In Search of the Miraculous about how people behave when they lose the school, “their little song has been sung,” etc.
I remember hearing about a student who had left the school having said that she felt like she had gotten out of a cage, and I thought, “Yes, freed from the need to make efforts, free to go back to sleep.”
I remember the first time a student told me, with some agitation, how something had happened to him at the Blake Cottage with Robert. I couldn’t understand exactly what he was talking about, because no one ever came out and just said “Robert _____ed my ___, OK? He told me to ___ him in the ___!”
So when I read a post from a student who is defending the FoF, or sneering at someone’s account of having been sexually abused, or even calmly and meticulously laying out the inevitable work angles that may be used to support any position in any discussion, I remember. I remember and try to understand what the person is defending, that asking someone to examine his beliefs about the FoF is asking a whole lot. It’s asking him to accept a huge blow to his vanity, to accept that he’s just another shlemazel. To consider relinquishing his place in the queue to paradise and go back to being what he was before, if an older and wiser version.
As Yeats put it, “Tread softly because you tread upon my dreams.”
May 16, 2007 at 2:24 am
Ames (#124),
You wrote, “I haven’t met or read that anyone is concerned with Burton’s sexual orientation or appetite (except perhaps as a symptom of something more important, in the case of the satyriasis). The concern is, the UNEQUAL POWER. Burton chooses weak young men who have little personal power or sense of self-worth….”
I can’t agree that the problem with Robert’s sex life is explained mainly by unequal power. For one thing, this strikes me as a kind of theoretical liberal ideal (and I would count myself as a liberal.) Plenty of sexual partnerships are based on unequal power – uneven balances of power between male/female, young/old, active/passive features, rich/poor, etc. Maybe you don’t see much of that in Grass Valley, but there’s a lot of this out there in the wider world. And many of the “boys” are quite strong individuals.
Robert’s sexual orientation IS part of the problem, because most of the men he has sex with are not homosexual or bisexual. Likewise, the extremity and frequency of the sexual practices and the sheer number of men contribute to his sex life being unacceptable. If he just gave the guys a kiss and a cuddle and patted their butts occasionally, but everything else was the same as it is now, I wouldn’t have so much of a problem with it. Or if he had only behaved this way with ten men in his entire lifetime, I could probably live with it. But it’s the combination of everything, including “unequal power” that makes it so unacceptable.
May 16, 2007 at 3:16 am
I am curious about what legal constraints apply to a church. Like other churches the FOF tithes its members, albeit excessively, and I have understood that churches do have the right to release members who do not pay the required tithe. Disciplinary action by the church against members who violate publicized tasks (like the smoking exercise, the drug exercise, or previously, the sex exercise) are also allowed, including fines and even “excommunication.”
However, as an institution the FOF obviously does some things very differently than conventional churches / religions.
Is it okay for a church to expel members over actions about which there are no clearly communicated guidelines or religious doctrines, nor any universally acknowledged legal or ethical non-acceptability? Many former FOF students have been “released” at the whim of its senior minister. FOF members who asked the wrong questions or used the wrong tone of voice in a public meeting, who slept with the wrong guy(s), who returned the wrong gift, who caught the wrong B Influence virus…have been summarily ejected from the FOF church. Other FOF members who enjoyed a closer relationship to the senior minister, but otherwise did the same or similar naughty acts, have historically received much less severe reprimands. Mihai and Dorian solicited sex with FOF women using vouchers for payment, and were only given a one-month timeout from the Galleria. Around the same time, Paola was given a leave of absence for acquiescing to their sleazy solicitation, ostensibly because she told a lie under cross examination (but in reality because she had been the girlfriend of Asaf). From longer ago Annie comes to mind as well. She was not only asked to leave the FOF but was literally told to get out of Oregon House by sunset (or was it sunrise?)…but this was during the Dark Ages of the sex exercise.
Also, are other churches allowed to have so many overt double-standards when it comes to what amounts to spiritual capital punishment by their own definition: i.e. in the FOF, the release of a member “by C Influence?” Are the senior ministers in other churches empowered to expel any member at any time without any due process? If the FOF only requested — but did not require — donations, this might seem less unfair; but in the FOF’s case the so-called “teaching donation” is not voluntary, and when you leave you lose access to every (material) thing you helped build with your money and/or your sweat. And what if C Influence “told” RB (e.g. through a license plate or a caveman drawing) that he should no longer let anybody stay in the school whose name ends with an “o”, or who was born in the state of Alabama, or whose skin has more than a certain volume of freckles, or who drives more than 25 mph on the property, or who does not look into his left eye during a meeting? Could he legally ask them to leave? (Don’t laugh, we’ve heard crazier ideas in the past.)
There is probably a lawyer out there who could shed some light on this.
Two last thoughts:
1) If members or ex-members of a church do have any legal rights at all with respect to discrimination or abuse at the hands of the church’s ministers, it seems to me that, for the FOF, the FOF Board of Directors may be its legal Achilles heel. Members of the FOF BOD are legally responsible for the actions of the organization, including its officers and its ministerial leadership, as is any BOD for any organization. This body has never been much more than a rubber stamp. But have they considered what could happen to them if the FOF were ever busted? Right now, May 2007, may be a good time to reevaluate.
2) Many FOF members living in the OH area are trapped by one or more heavy financial realities. Some have limited job skills. Others are nervous around “life people” and do not know how to behave in an interview. Others own houses they are not likely to be able to sell unless it is to another FOF student (not much of that happening lately). Many have jobs working for or with other FOF members, and risk losing these jobs if they leave the FOF. Others have children, which magnifies all the above. Earlier on there was mention of trying to mobilize some financial assistance for people like this, but I think another path has more potential. There are apparently thousands of us reading this blog on both sides of the FOF fence. Is there a way to create a kind of Monster.com for the FOF? Okay, I’ll put my hand up. If you are a business owner or manager who may be able to offer gainful employment somewhere on the planet, or if you are an FOF member who wants to explore his/her alternative career options, write to me at FOFmonster@sbsglobal.net and I will try to discreetly mediate a connection. No promises but what the heck, if it even helps one or two souls it’s worth a try.
With love.
May 16, 2007 at 3:18 am
Unoanimo, I’m rephrasing a question asked of you before, “who in the hell are you”? Did you find a way to hold a plug ‘up’ to your pinal gland and spark it?
May 16, 2007 at 5:51 am
A response to Rabbi (#10) who asked how to reconcile the love for one’s friends and teacher with some of the horror stories told on this blog.
Yes, there are some accounts on this blog that while I do not believe they are impossible, they are so far removed from the experiences that I have in the FOF, that I do not know what to think, let alone do.
But when I look around me, this is just not what I see and have been experiencing for many years. I am not naive anymore, and I am glad my experience is largely one of beauty, which also is one of the big third forces in my life.
For example, the stories of horrible things said and done by Robert and others are so different from what I see around me and experience personally, that I cannot believe the accounts to be completely real or objective, at least not the only truth or 100% objective.
Perhaps a true friend is someone that knows you well, but loves you anyway.
But, I do not say these accounts are not real, this is not up to me, or that they are not real truths for the posters, because I really do not know, and it is ultimately as simple as this.
Fortunately, we need not judge, or do anything about this, just love, and also, practically speaking, there is just nothing I can “do” with this information.
We may never know what really happened to this 9-year old girl, and whether Kiran for example is “right” or “wrong” about his experience, that is now his experience, even though I was there in Cairo, and was also with him in the hospital and all I saw were lots of friends helping him (including myself in my own little way) and experienced awe at the unforgiving nature of what we are involved with.
After some time digesting these postings, and yes they are shocks, I then resolve to be and to continue to attract beauty and wisdom. Strangely enough, that is what I then immediately experience. It is mathematical.
This is probably far from the answer you are looking for, but there is a sense of powerlessness–like seeing pictures of people dying from hunger in Africa, or people from Iraq dying in the war with arms and legs shot off, so painful, but there is somehow nothing that I can “do” about it in the moment.
Is the answer if the worst is true, leaving the Fellowship? Or making the Fellowship a better place? or trying at least? I know what the answer is for me but I know that for me the worst is not the case. And so we all make our choices daily and moment by moment.
I had a beautiful experience a few weeks ago, going for a beautiful walk with my beloved among the blooming Dogwood trees (nearby Isis) with their beautiful flowers, near a river–we had love in our hearts and everyone we saw and met that morning seemed to be truly having a wonderful time! All the kids we saw were just having a really good time jumping from the rock, and the adults too–it was amazing! Everyone! After a while with shock we realized this was because we were having this feeling inside of us and so everyone we met reflected it back–and that it had to be that way–is that not what a lot of us tried on Sunday morning?
To Ames #15 and 30, thanks for extending the invitation again, I really would like to come and have that chat with you! I must have misunderstood your meaning of third force–I confess an idea that I have not given enough thought to for some time. Thanks, also Unanimo.
But as I mentioned, the beauty of our friends and the teaching in general is about the highest third force I know of, because it is the angelic nature materialized…I see this (when I open my eyes) in everything, even the most intensely accusing postings, in the pictures posted by Kiran in his struggle to look in his own eyes, in the quotes and poetry on this blog, in the force and power and poetry of old friends like Whalerider, whom I knew well.
To Lady B #43 and to post #115, re the sex offender story and the safety of our kids–I feel the children are really safe here, I am not a fool, and there are drug use, marijuana, drunk drivers, unprotected sex, and sex offenders in all zipcodes. It is all relative of course, but it sure seems to me that the school has largely been a good influence all the way around.
My best to all,
Siddiq
May 16, 2007 at 6:26 am
Rosie, Sharon, Alex, Robert & The Work
The Gurdjieff Journal, Vol. 8, Issue 1, Number 29/2002
Talk show host Rosie O’Donnell’s recent televised outrage on hearing allegations that the Sharon Gans-led ‘Fourth Way’ group barred gays and African Americans from its membership was understandable. Rosie, who had only recently “outed” herself, had earlier narrated a film for the Gans group. While her reaction to what she termed “cults” could be expected, it was unfortunate in that she condemned all Fourth Way groups in the name of one.
If the McCarthyesque brandings of earlier times are not to be unintentionally repeated, a crucial distinction between authentic mainstream and faux Fourth Way groups must be recognized and emphasized. Authentic mainstream groups have a genuine connection with the ancient teaching of the Fourth Way. That is, those who take the role of teachers stand in a direct lineage that begins with G.I. Gurdjieff, who in 1912 introduced the teaching to the West. In contrast, faux group leaders not having this direct connection and the accompanying transmission necessary for inner understanding can at best have only ‘book knowledge.’ Their ‘teaching’ is composed of bits and pieces of the Fourth Way gleaned from books and other secondary sources. Discarding what doesn’t suit them, they take what they will from other teachings, salt in, knowingly or not, their own peculiarities and biases, and so concoct an eclectic and distorted stew that is Fourth Way in name only.
Faux Fourth Way the Source of Controversy
That all scandals attributed to the Fourth Way are entirely due to the excesses of faux groups is therefore not surprising. But in the public mind all Fourth Way groups are blackened with the same brush. The public can’t be expected to distinguish between the genuine Fourth Way and faux Fourth Way. The news media, harried as they are for profits, pushing reporters for maximum production, honing and spinning their own slant, can’t be expected to do so either. Rapacious for controversy and whatever easily gets attention, the media serve the secular and corporate culture and oppose and ridicule all that does not (especially the esoteric).
That the authentic Fourth Way has not defended itself, that its policy has been to remain silent however specious the charge or attack, is understandable. Unfortunately, in doing so it has allowed itself to be defined by those operating at its margins. What is risked is if wrong views are allowed to crystallize in society, then the teaching will be forever stained and scorned. The necessary result will be that the Fourth Way will go the way of the Shakers. Thus it is time to speak out.
Sharon Gans & Alex Horn
To begin with, whether Sharon Gans does or does not accept blacks and gays into her groups isn’t known. What is known is that Sharon Cans was never a member of an authentic Fourth Way group. A stage actress with one film credit – she played Valencia Merble in the film version of Kurt Vonnegut’s Slaughterhouse Five – Gans’ only connection with the Fourth Way is through her former husband, Alex Horn, who also was never a member. Horn’s first wife, Anne Burridge, as a teenager, is said to have attended one of John Bennett’s groups in England for about three years. Three years or not, her training can at best only have been preparatory as no deep understanding can be assimilated in such a short time. Vanity and self-love are simply too strong. During her time with Bennett, sometime in the 1960s, Anne met Alex Horn who had come to England in the hopes of working with Bennett. Bennett refused and warned Anne against any involvement with the American.
The Theater of All Possibilities
Horn, a charismatic personality with a strong stage presence and an uncanny knack for spotting people’s weaknesses, convinced her to marry him. He then apparently took what he learned of the teaching from Anne, combined it with what he understood from books and started his ‘school,’ The Theatre of All Possibilities (the name derived from Herman Hesse’s Steppenwolf), first in New York City and later in San Francisco’s Mission District. As a former student recalled:
He could intimidate people easily and would alternate bullying tactics with warm and friendly demeanor. He knew how to instinctively play on a person’s soft spots to get control over people. There was a lot of male ‘challenging’ and emotional bullying at the meetings and occasionally it would break out physically – usually between students. Although Alex intimidated people physically, he would always step aside and let someone else get physical for him. We seemed to be learning how to be ‘Alex,’ and he liked that. One of his regular themes was ‘feminine influence’ and how we had to avoid being dominated by women. He encouraged men to take advantage of women and tried to get the less adventurous of us to ‘sleep around’ as a way of freeing ourselves psychologically. I think Alex was an imposter who used the Work to con people out of much money and energy.
Remembered another student of those early years:
Alex was definitely not a simple man, but a very intelligent Solar type, i.e., incredibly charismatic and smart. He had a vast knowledge of not only many Work books but seemingly much of the philosophical and poetic works of the Western world and plays going back to the Greeks. His teaching used Fourth Way terminology and also quotes from Ibsen, Whitman, Blake, Hal Shem Tov and others.
On weekends we would go up to a ranch his wife had bought up in Sonoma. I remember the camaraderie and laughter but in large part most of what I remember is Horn talking, talking and talking. He often spoke in sexual terms. People would feel loose and often meetings ended with much hugging and effusiveness.
Horn said this was due to ‘C Influence. We worked at preparing and planting a vineyard, building a sauna and staging plays. Besides this we also went on a fifty-mile hike through the Nevada Desert that was cut short to probably thirty miles and ended with a ride on a Greyhound bus to a brothel. There were a lot of rich experiences but there was no daily practice of any kind taught, and behind all the philosophical quotations there was something important missing.
“Strange School”
It’s not clear whether Sharon Gans appeared before or after Anne divorced Alex – the divorce was in 1969 or 1970 – but afterward Horn and Gans married and she became involved in his school and starred in its plays. After the divorce, Anne said that “Alex had never really been in the Work or submitted himself to a teacher.” She said she felt some responsibility for the damage that Alex had done in the name of the Work and so began to teach herself. She took back the ranch in Sonoma and many of his pupils. Horn was able to recover and he lived quite well, as his school had a gross income of $40,000 a month. That changed on December 23, 1978. That was the day the San Francisco Chronicle published a front-page article, “Strange School: Real-Life Drama in SF Theater Group”. It alleged financial exploitation of students and beatings for students not selling enough tickets to the plays. With the Jim Jones’ Guyana massacre still hanging heavy and apparently not thinking they could get a fair hearing, Horn and Gans left town for a ranch he had bought in Condon, Montana. Later the two started groups in New York City. However, by the end of 1988, Horn’s abusive behavior became a problem. A coup was staged and Horn was removed as the group’s leader in favor of Sharon Cans. Horn’s fear of “feminine influence” had again played out. It is said that he continues to lead groups in New York City.
Burton: A “Budding Man Number Five”
One of Horn’s students in the early 1970s was a tall, handsome young man with an Arkansas accent, Robert Earl Burton. After a year or so, Horn asked Burton to leave because he could not “stay on task.” The task was not to chase the other young men. Unabashed, Burton presented himself as a “budding man number five,” according to one of his earliest students. Burton had picked up from Horn the knack of spotting and pointing out the weaknesses of others. This power of observation, along with his quiet and contained manner, and his promise to start The Fellowship of Friends, a ‘Fourth Way School,’ attracted students.
Understanding the idealism that perpetuates many seekers’ search, Burton refocused the teaching’s challenge to self-love and vanity to a stress on living like a person of the Renaissance, cultivating impressions of beauty, the arts, music, poetry and fine living. Apparently influenced by Warren Miller’s best-selling book of the time, Canticle for Liebowitz. depicting a ravaged world after the world catastrophe, Burton made a number of prophecies, one of which was that California would fall into the sea on April 12, 1998 at 11 A.M. Those with him, being the elect of Christianity, would not perish. Like Liebowitz in the book, eight years after starting his school and now known as “The Teacher,” Burton stopped teaching to travel the globe to amass – he would no doubt say “salvage” – a large collection of art work as a kind of cultural ark in the coming Armageddon. (A recent auction of Burton’s collection of rare antique Chinese furniture at Christie’s in New York City brought in $11.2 million.). When the day passed for California to fall into the sea, Burton explained it with, “The Higher Powers [he claims to speak to 44 discarnate beings] have humiliated me.”
A Knack for Merchandising
Going Horn one better, Burton warned of “female dominance” and moved to the country, where he bought property he named Renaissance, now known as Apollo, created a vineyard, built a theater and a museum to house his various collections. Though a fourth grade school teacher by profession, Burton had a knack for merchandising. Recognizing that every reader of a Fourth Way book was a potential student, he had his students insert bookmarks in the books advertising his “Gurdjieff-Ouspensky Centres.” When the film Meetings with Remarkable Men was launched, Burton’s students stood outside theaters handing out pamphlets and recruiting people for his school. The ethics of Burton and his ‘school’ having nothing to do with the books or the film wasn’t of concern.
Rumors kept surfacing over the years of Burton having sexual relations with his male students, all necessarily heterosexual (from the first he had outlawed homosexuals as members, probably to keep his own interests hidden and to have no rivals). His students’ reluctance and repulsion he countered by telling them “I promise you I am an angel in a man’s body” and declaring that he represented C Influence. Overwhelmed with lawsuits in the 1990s, Burton finally admitted his homosexuality. Following this admission and charges of sexual and financial exploitation, the Fellowship lost a great many American students, but its membership is said to be growing quickly in South America, Japan and Russia. A number of offshoots led by former Burton students have sprung up, such as The New American Wing.
Having made the crucial discrimination between authentic and faux Fourth Way groups, let’s examine the issues that arose out of Rosie’s reaction. African Americans, or any other people, are not barred from the Fourth Way and never have been. At the very beginning of Gurdjieff’s introduction of the teaching to America in 1924, the celebrated African American novelist Jean Toomer was a member. He worked closely with Gurdjieff and A.R. Orage, Gurdjieff’s chief deputy in America. Toomer organized and led groups in Harlem and later was appointed to found and lead groups in the Midwest.
Gurdjieff, as a Greek-Armenian born and raised in the Caucasus, understood first-hand the perils of discrimination, as his beloved father was killed defending his home against the Turks during the infamous Armenian massacres. Thus, any group barring African Americans – or any racial or ethnic group – would certainly not be in line with Gurdjieff’s thinking. He was also strongly opposed to caste systems of any kind.
Hopefully, the foregoing will give a broader and more nuanced view that puts in question the attitudes and judgments that have piled up over the years about the Fourth Way. That faux versions exist is apparently necessary, for as Gurdjieff said: The very idea of initiation, reaches people in most cases through pseudo-esoteric systems and schools; and if there were not these pseudo-esoteric schools the vast majority of humanity would have no possibility whatever of hearing and learning of the existence of anything greater than life because the truth in its pure form would be inaccessible for them.
May 16, 2007 at 7:16 am
155: Sheik:
Understanding comes from personal experience, not from the tales of others.
May 16, 2007 at 7:44 am
To JoelF (and Look Both Ways):
Thank you for your acknowledgement, Joel. As I said, I realized you were making a point about the truth of the postings here, some of which are hearsay, second hand info, and inflammatory. I, too, was appalled by the child rape story. I have children, as I think you mentioned you have one as well. I make the distinction that the experiences I speak of are first hand.
When one can intuit through mere words on a page that something has the ring of truth…I believe that is the higher emotional center at work. At this point I don’t foresee revealing my identity as I have a family and a life for which I have worked hard. I have enough business doing what I do, and I am not motivated by the hope of getting money from some lawsuit settlement against the FOF. It would be too costly, time consuming, and their pockets are deep (filled with our money.) And if there was a way I could make an anonymous deposition under oath, so help me God, I would. What good would that do?
Remember, here’s what someone said of my earlier posting:
#8-322 Roommate Says:
May 8th, 2007 at 1:31 am
“To Whale Rider, and all…
WR, we know each other, as fellow “Academians” for about a year or more in the early 80s. I can vouch for your truthfulness; your story is 100% real. I know. I will never violate your wish for privacy.
My heart bled, when you left, even though we were not close at all, me being the “junior” in the then group of 6 residents.
I am glad you found your way in the world and hope that your posting brings you peace.
Strange to meet up here in cyberspace–I have often felt that I would see you again, in some city some time, with the very powerful and unique presence you shared. I do not know why. Yes, you were, and I can read, are still, a gentleman. I can tell you, when you left, there was silence at the Academy. Also on the part of Robert.
I will never forget the time when WR had to make a key decision on life’s cross roads (not the decision to leave if I recall), standing in the room, for hours without moving, eyes closed, in silence, one of the most intense and moving things I ever witnessed. He then got up, and made his decision.
So Whale Rider, thank you for posting, and as you did not say goodbye to me at the time, I hereby take the opportunity to wish you well.
Peace to your noble soul”
I pray to God that my Roommate is a man of his word. Sheik has been pretty good at calling people who post from the same IP address, but of course, I could have used a different computer and with a different address. You have my word, for what its worth, that I did not. All that I have told you is true.
Somebody #153: I agree with Bruce #156. I think the best we could ever hope for is that RB would just go away and move to Bahrain next door to guess who.
Here’s a thought…outshine them!
Kiran: from what I gather, you are a man of some means living out some kind of contradiction. To do or not to do, that is the question. Are you really interested in your own evolution or just everyone else’s? If I was a conscious being, and you were my student, and you came to me wanting to work on your immense vanity feature (takes one to know one, dude, you are on my ladder), this is the task I would give you. Purchase some property as close to Isis as possible with a house. I bet there’s new stuff coming on the market just in the last month. Doroda’s place would be awesome, if she is willing or still there. Make this a safe house for anyone wanting to leave the FOF, with a big sign out front visible from the road. Give people one month of free rent to stay there while getting their feet on the ground. Keep it open 24/7 (or have a hotline) with several computers that would enable others in or out to read this blog or do research. You can host free lectures and seminars about cults. Support ex-members with group therapy, help them get jobs, green cards, move back home or whatever they need to reintegrate back into life, especially the Russian boys. When you open make as big a public relations splash as you could afford. Post big pictures of Brian S. and Kevin K. and any other collaterally damaged souls I don’t know about on the walls as a memorial to what can go wrong in this cult. Provide a written account of their life story. Give parties, loud fun parties. Hire well known musicians and rock Oregon House!
Here’s your new credo: this is a cult that is run by a person who fuels himself with demonic lust and greed. He used to mask his greed with his predictions, asking for more and more money because of the impending disasters. (But, gee, the predictions didn’t come true, did they?) He doesn’t generate his own refined, self-sustaining spiritual energy like the sun, he dines on other’s at night like the moon and has it pumped up through his lower chakra. There is no historical precedent for this kind of teacher. An enlightened being is able to generate his own spiritual energy out in the open, in the light, for all to see, and not in the dark. I am quite sure the public at large would support your cause. Make sure the members see the house on their first trip to Isis. You’d be a hero of substance or maybe you’re content to be just another RB?
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 16, 2007 at 8:37 am
hey bloggers – didn’t you get it yet?
The i’s are not real?
None of them.
Not this one.
Let it go, time to move on, time to be.
Start now.
Favourite colour: Green.
heresay
May 16, 2007 at 8:57 am
To Anonymous,
The halmark of inner considering is shame and it is strange that you have not noticed that I don’t have any. Your angle is using feminine dominance wishing to put me in a place where I feel shame but it is having no effect.
The Fellowship needs to look at what is going on inside of it before it takes another step. I am telling the things I know to those that wish to hear them.
You have no idea how much less suffering I have today than I’ve had for the past seventeen years in the Fellowship. So much so that I am willing to respect anyone who wishes to stay in it and all I am doing is cleansing myself up from my participation in it. Just an aspect of good house holder.
May you be much loved.
May 16, 2007 at 9:04 am
To the Sheik,
I thank you for the stimulating push to keep working on the sketchbook. Looking at page one there were so many good posts that it seemed silly to re-post almost the whole page.
I will continue to work slowly as my eyes allow.
Thank you,
Elena
May 16, 2007 at 11:02 am
Questions to the FOF and to Anonymous, regarding your invitation to join the FOF and check it out.
Steven Hassan has developed a way to check groups. It is called the BITE model and is described in on his page. http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/articles/BITE.htm
Please let me know if any of these concerns listed below apply to the FOF in your opinion?
I wouldn’t mind an answer longer than a sentence about a needle in a ballon.
………………………………………………………………………………
Destructive mind control can be understood in terms of four basic components, which form the acronym BITE:
I.Behavior Control
II.Information Control
III.Thought Control
IV.Emotional Control
It is important to understand that destructive mind control can be determined when the overall effect of these four components promotes dependency and obedience to some leader or cause. It is not necessary for every single item on the list to be present. Mind controlled cult members can live in their own apartments, have nine-to-five jobs, be married with children, and still be unable to think for themselves and act independently.
I. Behavior Control
1. Regulation of individual’s physical reality
a. Where, how and with whom the member lives and associates with
b. What clothes, colors, hairstyles the person wears
c. What food the person eats, drinks, adopts, and rejects
d. How much sleep the person is able to have
e. Financial dependence
f. Little or no time spent on leisure, entertainment, vacations
2. Major time commitment required for indoctrination sessions and group rituals
3. Need to ask permission for major decisions
4. Need to report thoughts, feelings and activities to superiors
5. Rewards and punishments (behavior modification techniques- positive and negative).
6. Individualism discouraged; group think prevails
7. Rigid rules and regulations
8. Need for obedience and dependency
II. Information Control
1. Use of deception
a. Deliberately holding back information
b. Distorting information to make it acceptable
c. Outright lying
2. Access to non-cult sources of information minimized or discouraged
a. Books, articles, newspapers, magazines, TV, radio
b. Critical information
c. Former members
d. Keep members so busy they don’t have time to think
3. Compartmentalization of information; Outsider vs. Insider doctrines
a. Information is not freely accessible
b. Information varies at different levels and missions within pyramid
c. Leadership decides who “needs to know” what
4. Spying on other members is encouraged
a. Pairing up with “buddy” system to monitor and control
b. Reporting deviant thoughts, feelings, and actions to leadership
5. Extensive use of cult generated information and propaganda
a. Newsletters, magazines, journals, audio tapes, videotapes, etc.
b. Misquotations, statements taken out of context from non-cult sources
6. Unethical use of confession
a. Information about “sins” used to abolish identity boundaries
b. Past “sins” used to manipulate and control; no forgiveness or absolution
III. Thought Control
1. Need to internalize the group’s doctrine as “Truth”
a. Map = Reality
b. Black and White thinking
c. Good vs. evil
d. Us vs. them (inside vs. outside)
2. Adopt “loaded” language (characterized by “thought-terminating clichés”). Words are the tools we use to think with. These “special” words constrict rather than expand understanding. They function to reduce complexities of experience into trite, platitudinous “buzz words”.
3. Only “good” and “proper” thoughts are encouraged.
4. Thought-stopping techniques (to shut down “reality testing” by stopping “negative” thoughts and allowing only “good” thoughts); rejection of rational analysis, critical thinking, constructive criticism.
a. Denial, rationalization, justification, wishful thinking
b. Chanting
c. Meditating
d. Praying
e. Speaking in “tongues”
f. Singing or humming
5. No critical questions about leader, doctrine, or policy seen as legitimate
6. No alternative belief systems viewed as legitimate, good, or useful
IV. Emotional Control
1. Manipulate and narrow the range of a person’s feelings.
2. Make the person feel like if there are ever any problems it is always their fault, never the leader’s or the group’s.
3. Excessive use of guilt
a. Identity guilt
1. Who you are (not living up to your potential)
2. Your family
3. Your past
4. Your affiliations
5. Your thoughts, feelings, actions
b. Social guilt
c. Historical guilt
4. Excessive use of fear
a. Fear of thinking independently
b. Fear of the “outside” world
c. Fear of enemies
d. Fear of losing one’s “salvation”
e. Fear of leaving the group or being shunned by group
f. Fear of disapproval
5. Extremes of emotional highs and lows.
6. Ritual and often public confession of “sins”.
7. Phobia indoctrination : programming of irrational fears of ever leaving the group or even questioning the leader’s authority. The person under mind control cannot visualize a positive, fulfilled future without being in the group.
a. No happiness or fulfillment “outside”of the group
b. Terrible consequences will take place if you leave: “hell”; “demon possession”; “incurable diseases”; “accidents”; “suicide”; “insanity”; “10,000 reincarnations”; etc.
c. Shunning of leave takers. Fear of being rejected by friends, peers, and family.
d. Never a legitimate reason to leave. From the group’s perspective, people who leave are: “weak;” “undisciplined;” “unspiritual;” “worldly;” “brainwashed by family, counselors;” seduced by money, sex, rock and roll.
May 16, 2007 at 12:23 pm
Living the contradiction 7
between Form and Abandoning Form
Did you ever ask by what events in RB’s life the “sequence of six” was inspired and why he chose sex and not seven or eight. Why Bi, Hold, from the back, More, deeper, Again and not other words ?
But joke aside, the idea of repeating certain words as mantra, prayer or sequence is the oldest technique in the spiritual world. But maybe never before there was such a formatory fixation on some specific words and numbers. It was always understood that its not the words but the fact that repeating those words stills the mind and does not leave much room for its otherwise quite accidental operation.
Rumi put it in wonderful words “Between voice (energy) and presence (Consciousness), information flows”. Both Information and consciousness are outside time and space and this is how the Inergetix-CoRe system can do its diagnostic and therapeutic work independent of distance, because it works on the informational level. However besides this similarity Information and consciousness have not much in common, in fact their respective qualities are almost in every other aspect contradictory.
Words and thought are a Form for information and in order to come to the realm of consciousness one has to transcend them in one or another way. Form and Abandoning-Form are two of these great contradictions that our life is made up of and where most, depending on their mechanics or based on imitation chose one or the other pole and think it is a conscious choice. However the way out of contradiction is always by transcendence of either pole and it always has an element of surprise.
In any human interaction one either follows a Form or Abandoning-Form, for example on this Blog some think, they can just Abandon-Form. However for me the Form to know the full name of the person I am talking to is essential for communication. My life has become too valuable to waste it on arguing and I certainly would not respond to shadows like “RSVP” and “Look my way” as it is missing this part of Form.
By the way I do not think that RSVP and Abraham Goldman are the same because Abe has a hearing problem and this guy apparently has a problem with his eyes as he capitalizes everything. However this shows one of the problems with this missing part of Form of not giving ones name. Many of these shadows like “becareful”, “Howard Carter”, “RSVP”, “Look my way” and the dozens more that have come and gone are incarnations of a few people. But the moment they see their case is lost, they just come up with a new name.
This is a very interesting analogy of the “Many Is”, the moment you really worn one out, and have seen its nonexistence by its countless repetition and your observation it dies and disappears. But magically it is reborn in another form with a new name and the battle begins again until you are finally understand this game and stop wasting your energy on every new I that comes along. For me this is one of the most interesting aspects of the Blog that it mimics very much our own world of the “Many Is” and having it externalized like that, helps to become objective about it and learn so much about its working.
For example to have a name longer than just a few days is a Form that has some obvious function, it is a vessel that one learns to fill with content and to back it up in many moments where it is threatened. But also the many situations where people Abandon their name like in marriage or joining some spiritual order can be very useful because this provides a new vessel to be filled.
Now it is obvious that most people start to identify with their name and are in a constant defense of it. Certainly some of you who took a handle can see the liberating power this has on ones thinking and perception. Others with a smaller being they take it as a Free-for-all to let out all their stored acidity and negativity. Its often the same people that are very “good students” when they have to wear their more permanent name.
In old age Form is usually taking over and every part of ones life is more and more fixed. What to eat, where to go for vacation, what opinion to have, what friends to meet e.g. The same can be observed in an aging FOF, everything has become so formalized to a degree that it is almost life-less. But the believers in Form those who have a lot of “earth” element, usually Jacks they feel very much at home in such an environment.
Of course also the opposite, the Abandoning-Form as maybe in the Advaita philosophy attracts certain mechanics or elements more, like “water“ and “air” as both are about flowing and the form-less, about the ability to take any form. For long-time students of the 4th-Way this is one of the reasons why they are attracted to a philosophy like Advaita that focuses more on the pole of Abandoning-Form. Life means to go from one pole of contradiction to the other until we are finally so tired of this process that something takes us by the hand and guides us to a true transformation of both poles.
Kiran@beingpresent.net
For those who want to escape the strait-jacket Form of Oregon House and ISIS and do not have the money to travel, I can recommend to go to the Mermaid restaurant in Camptonville….It’s a lot of fun and say hello to the own from me
May 16, 2007 at 12:52 pm
In Search of the Miraculous, pg.234
“This is why in true work, that is, in true ‘doing,’ the producing of infatuation in people is not allowed. What you call black magic is based on infatuation and on playing upon human weaknesses. Black magic does not in any way mean magic of evil. I have already said earlier that no one ever does anything for the sake of evil, in the interests of evil. Everyone always does everything in the interests of good as he understands it. In the same way it is quite wrong to assert that black magic must necessarily be egoistical, that in black magic a man strives after some results for himself. This is quite wrong. Black magic may be quite altruistic, may strive after the good of humanity or after the salvation of humanity from real or imaginary evils. But what can be called black magic has always one definite characteristic. This characteristic is the tendency to use people for some, even the best of aims, without their knowledge and understanding, either by producing in them faith and infatuation or by acting upon them through fear.
“But it must be remembered in this connection that a ‘black magician,’ whether good or evil, has at all events been at a school. He has learned something, has heard
something, knows something. He is simply a ‘half-educated man’ who has either been turned out of a school or who has himself left a school having decided that he already knows enough, that he does not want to be in subordination any longer, and that he can work independently and even direct the work of others. All ‘work’ of this kind can produce only subjective results, that is to say, it can only increase deception and increase sleep instead of decreasing them. Nevertheless something can be learned from a ‘black magician’ although in the wrong way. He can sometimes by accident even tell the truth. That is why I say that there are many things worse than ‘black magic.’ Such are various ‘occult’ and theosophical societies and groups. Not only have their teachers never been at a school but they have never even met anyone who has been near a school. Their work simply consists in aping. But imitation work of this kind gives a great deal of self-satisfaction. One man feels himself to be a ‘teacher,’ others feel that they are ‘pupils,’ and everyone is satisfied. No realization of one’s nothingness can be got here and if people affirm that they have it, it is all illusion and self-deception, if not plain deceit. On the contrary, instead of realizing their own nothingness the members of such circles acquire a realization of their own importance and a growth of false personality.
——————————————–
I am That, pg. 422
“The true Guru will never humiliate you, nor will he estrange you from yourself. He will constantly bring you back to the fact of your inherent perfection and encourage you to seek within. He knows you need nothing, not even him, and is never tired of reminding you. But the self-appointed Guru is more concerned with himself than with his disciples.”
– Nisargadatta
May 16, 2007 at 1:30 pm
Mifis # 147:
Your story made me look into my email archive and I dug something very funny which was written 7 years ago! I think many will guess who has written it:
A Buddhist master tired of a diet consisting mostly of oranges and obtuse questions crept out of the monastery late one evening in search of something new. Outside and alone and feeling quite small beneath the canopy of sky and bright stars, he gulped down huge drafts of air thick with sweet scented Jasmine and felt nsurpassably free. In the flowery bouquet he barely discerned another, sweeter aroma. It was something altogether unfamiliar and intriguing, something without a hint of orange that wafted his way and seemingly beckoned him towards it.
He followed his nose and came by and by to a beautiful hot-dog stand. The owner it seems was a brown mouse with a big belly and a small moustache who wore a pink apron and a huge tiara. She was, he later discovered, a former cocktail waitress, who was formerly a duchess, now fallen twice on hard times. The mouse looked the monk up and down and asked in a voice that was two parts of boredom mixed with one of contempt, an olive and far too much ice, “Can I help you Buddhy ?”
The monk unperplexed, looked down at the buns and the Wieners and onions and pickles and ketchup and mayo and mustard and said in a voice as detached as a house in the suburbs, “Make me one with everything”.
On another subject: a friend asked me if I know about the story where there was a student in the London center, who’s boy-friend sued FOF in 1985 and asked for her teaching payments to be returned. He name is Elaine. She won the case.
Does anyone know about that story?
May 16, 2007 at 3:21 pm
#157
Beautifully expressed!
May 16, 2007 at 3:55 pm
Hey Rita,
Why on earth are you interested in an old story that took place over 20 years ago about someone who got her money back (or not)? How does that nurture you?
Go and have a life, time is short!!!
May 16, 2007 at 5:36 pm
No person, post 142, said:
“What’s gone – is fear. In fact it is so completely gone – only now can I see how many layers of my life during FOF years were completely saturated with fear and guilt!”
One of the main reasons I left the FOF was the overwhelming and near-constant feeling of fear and guilt — especially guilt: guilt that I wasn’t a good enough student, guilt that I didn’t like the correct things, and so on.
Toward the end of my time in the school, I tried, on numerous occasions, to discuss my feelings with students I felt like I could confide in. But they genuinely could not seem to understand what I was talking about. They just looked at me the way a dog does when you confuse it — you know, they wrinkle their brow and tilt their head a little. That was all I got back. So in addition to feeling guilty, I felt like I was very much alone with my own peculiar form of insanity. It was only much later after I left and hooked up with some former students who had gone through much emotional pain in deconstructing their experiences that I realized that I was not so alone.
Actually, I just remembered one student who acknowledged feeling guilty to me — we talked about it on a drive up to Renaissance once, and commiserated about our inability to get any feedback from others in this area. Otherwise it was blank stares all around.
Innernaut
1981-1989
May 16, 2007 at 6:12 pm
“That changed on December 23, 1978. That was the day the San Francisco Chronicle published a front-page article, “Strange School: Real-Life Drama in SF Theater Group”. #162
What about a front-page article in the Appeal-Democrat? Could that help?
May 16, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Correction to Post #159:
The correct email address for job ideas is FOFmonster@sbcglobal.net.
Alternatively, feel free to contact me directly at joseph.granados@gmail.com.
With love.
Joseph G
1976-2007
May 16, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Here are some questions for people living at Isis;
When was the last time you dined with a student living at Isis who’s name you didn’t even know?
When was the last time you went to a wine cellar dinner? If your are a woman we already know the answer.
When was the last time you knew how much all the teaching payments from all centers added up to and what was happening with that money?
When was the last time Robert asked you to join him at his table for lunch?
When was the last time Robert asked you to take a trip into San Francisco with himself and his entourage?
I’m sure all these questions sound trivial and trite, but they start to paint a picture of the one-sided nature of the fellowship. Why do think Robert is always happy? I think it’s because he’s always surrounded by his harem and he gets whatever he wants- Period!
These remarks don’t come from any “higher” parts in myself, but they are being expressed nonetheless. What parts in Robert require the need to be with straight men? If it were a semen issue, then gay men would be just as good as straight men, right?
The school basically never talks about the sex center, yet this seems to be the part of most people on the panet (including all students) that generates the most I’s. Something seems wrong.
I’ve never experienced the four wordless breathes because it’s not going to happen from a classroom environment. The school doesn’t seem to offer any individual tutoring program, and now that any dissidents are being asked to leave, who wants to open up about questioning the validity of the teaching methods?
Wishing everyone a productive day
May 16, 2007 at 7:05 pm
I recommend this book by David Mamet ‘True and False’ which is written for actors, but is interesting as a great piece of writing to anybody.
Here is a thought from that book which I found relative to the discussion:
“The simple performance of the great deed, onstage or off, is called ‘heroism’. The person who will not be swayed, who perseveres no matter what – that hero has the capacity to inspire us, to suggest that we re-examine our self-imposed limitations and try again… that hero suggests through selflessness that we can be better than we are. The liar, the pretender, the self-promoter… that person may compel our admiration for a moment, but will subsequently leave us unsure, angry and depraved.
.. his (Stanislavsky’s in this case, but parallel is obvious – R.P.) contribution as a theoretician was that of a dilettante, and has been a lodestone for the antipractical soul. For amateurs. For his theories cannot be put into practice… They can demand fealty and long-term devotion, but they rarely, if ever, show demonstrable results. They, neither of them, tend towards closure, i.e., a completion of a course of action/study – for such closure would deprive the devotee of an enjoyable occupation.”
Hava Nagila: Where do you go to have a life? 🙂
May 16, 2007 at 7:23 pm
To Hava Nagilah (173), reacting on Rita’s post (171):
Do not call up “earth” while confronting Rita.
Such an old thing (earth!!! not Rita!!!),
as I read your statement,
should even not be part of your “life”!
I do not want to exclude the possiblity you are inviting a being
(even every being since you are surely generous)
to “Go and have a life”.
Who would not welcome any “push” ?
Thank you for this last statement of yours.
So beautiful that I will repeat it here:
“Go and have a life, time is short!!!”
Does having a life means not to scrutinate, study and get in touch with “your” past?
I truly hope Rita’s post will generate reactions from others, since, apparently, she states she does not enough herself to paint the all picture.
So, I want to thank her for bringing the topic to this blog and, anticipately, thank any further contributor(s).
More information, more material…
Yes, I want to be able to comprehend where I come from, who preceded me as well as who stands with me, right now, on this old thing called earth…
This blog is about expression, revelation(s)
and clarifications.
This blog, you felt like acknowledging via your post
(a new name… Hallelujiah!)
is about YOU-US and,
God,
even I !
Gratitude.
May 16, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Dearest Gabriella F.
Many of us who know you and M. are very happy for your new found freedom!!
Can you tell us how and if this blog is affecting the Italian centers? Are the center directors aware of what is going on and how are they dealing with it?
Grazie.
May 16, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Whalerider, I don’t know who you are, but if the years you specified in which you were a member of the FOF are accurate, then you have undoubtedly revealed your identity to anyone who wants to search the FOF membership database for members who joined and left on those years and were close to Robert. This is worth bearing in mind for anyone who wishes to remain anonymous. I’m one of them. I hope that other bloggers will respect our anonymity, but if us anonymous bloggers launch personal attacks against bloggers who post under their own names, we can hardly expect them to do so.
———–
Which brings me to the issue of recounting controversial aspects of students’ (and Robert’s) private lives. There is an undoubted value in this, because it helps us current students to assess the kind of community we live in. But it’s also very difficult to know to what extent an account is accurate, especially since these accounts tend to be accusatory. They also lack context – for instance, teen children of students also have sex with and obtain intoxicating substances with and from local young adult non-students (of the same age and older than them), and each other. For better or worse, this is part of teen Californian culture. The participation of “R” should be seen in this context, as well as in the context of being in Robert’s close circle.
I hope that Unoanimo has spoke to R personally about this at some point (and if R is who I think he is, then he is quite an open young man). If not, then it was a cowardly act.
———-
Elena (#136), since you brought this up, could you clarify which of the following most resembles the situation as you see it? 1. G was addicted to porno, period. 2. G was addicted to porno while with C but you weaned him off it. 3. C said that G was addicted to porno, but you saw no evidence of that while he was with you.
It sounds to me that C was blowing this up to put you off Girard.
Also, was G really addicted to porno, or just watching it sometimes? And porno is one thing, child porno another. Was there any evidence of the latter? And was this a result of a bad choice of porno sites while surfing, or a determined addiction? Could you be clearer about this Elena. Otherwise, what readers will remember is not that you had a porno-free relationship with G, but that he is a porno addict.
May 16, 2007 at 8:27 pm
Is I’s I’s the correct spelling of Fort Isis?
A comment about Innernaut’s guilt and fear struggle. I was expelled from I’s I’s in 1979.
I sort of came to while walking the back alley’s of downtown Long Beach after midnight.
Walking in front of me was a heavyset homeless man paid a fresh package of cigarettes to carry one of two heavy boxes of 4th Way(?) material.
Every twenty feet my Teacher of back alley mazes
would stop long enough to scratch his anus. Enough time for me to reflect on my own guilt and self-loathing. Because I thought I lost a real school.
For twenty-seven years I kept the oath. Don’t talk bad about the work, don’t talk bad about the school, don’t talk bad about the teacher, don’t hold any ill will toward (P), nor G. Haven for doing his job. You are the ultimate failure.
I’s, I’s.
Not until I found this blog did I realize that I too wasted way too much time.
May 16, 2007 at 8:27 pm
169: Kiran
Whether one signs oneself ‘John Smith’ or ‘Whalerider’ or ‘Anonymous’ is irrelevant. ‘Kiran’ is also an assumed name.
May 16, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Exlax 101 (#162), you seem to be claiming some current connection to a Gurdjieff-related group in other posts. (BTW I guessed who you are and I like you personally). Could this be William Patrick Patterson’s groups? Patterson’s anti-FOF writings are pretty suspect to me because he spends so much time in his Gurdjieff Journal trying to put down the competition.
The following discussion on gurdjieff.tribe.net is interesting, http://gurdjieff.tribe.net/thread/e347558d-52f8-4398-ad0e-242553e07ba1
“You would be surprised how the various factions of Gurdjieff Groups are so political and intolerant of one another. The Gurdjieff Foundation does not recognize Patterson’s authority, nor his approach, and he is just as critical of them. I was involved with the foundation for 10 years and with Patterson’s group for another 5, as well as a few others. Where did all this leave me?
Long seeking it through others,
I was far from reaching it.
Now I go by myself;
I meet it everywhere.
It is just I myself,
And I am not itself.
Understanding this way,
I can be as I am.
~ Tung-shan ~
(806 – 869)
Patterson prides himself on his ability to deliver “shocks” to his students. Gurdjieff is well known for his use of “shocks” to help students “see” themselves. He could sense when the student experienced an “ah-ha moment” and would proclaim: “ah, now you see.” Unfortunately, Patterson only knows how to ineptly create the “shock,” usually through public humiliation, and doesn’t know how to follow up and allow the student to “see himself.” He demands blind obedience and subjugation. His poor students only blame themselves and hope for another chance for humiliation, so they can maybe do better the next time. Gurdjieff was a rare individual with the ability see people to their core. Patterson, and the many other self-proclaimed Gurdjieff teachers (imitators), are all over and have many gullible students. Many of the groups are closer to being cults (in the negative sense) than religions.”
and
“I agree with your post. You are very accurate in your conclusions. Patterson has zero tolerance for any approach not his own. He actually left the work early on and was greatly influenced by Sunyata and Jean Klein before returning to the work as a source of income.”
That’s starting to sound familiar!
May 16, 2007 at 8:32 pm
168: Trademarker:
Excellent description of sleeping life as we see it all around us on the Earth.
May 16, 2007 at 8:43 pm
166: Elena
>Your angle is using feminine dominance wishing to put me in a place where I feel shame but it is having no effect.
No, you attribute motives to me which are your negative imagination. In fact, I wished to increase your happiness. If you think all students are monsters and have no noble motives, I can’t help that. I sincerely wish you well. The path you are choosing to make yourself feel better is somewhat dubious, however. I think it will perpetuate whatever caused you to be unhappy while in FoF — which had nothing to do with FoF, only with your inner world and what you brought to FoF. FoF is a third force, not first. Unfortunately, this is forgotten.
I have no wish to shame anyone. What’s the point in that? But there’s so much half-baked nonsense and slander on this blog that one cannot but add some counterpoint.
May 16, 2007 at 8:56 pm
150: Poo-poo
>Your continued obfuscation and dissembling
Inventing and lying about about little gangs and imaginary tag-teams is a good example of obfuscation and dissembling.
>around a simple and deeply disturbing issue
Sex is simple and beautiful. It only becomes disturbing when people have already decided to leave. They need to blame anything and everyone other than themselves.
>goes a long way towards underscoring my
earlier assessment of your character or rather, the lack thereof.
One the one hand, there are calls for input from all sides; but on the other hand some posters engage in serial abuse of others.
Serially abusing other posters is hardly going to help anyone’s understanding, is it? One also feels it’s pointless contributing if posts are met by raving lies and verbal abuse.
May 16, 2007 at 9:09 pm
In Reply to Post #153, #154, #158, #159 & #164
Dear ‘somebody’ ~ (Post #153/9)
Your post reminds me of a time while I was a young teenager: we were out on the basketball court, noticing that some guy was mistreating his girlfriend, recognized that the guy was much larger than any of us and of a certain ‘instinctive magnitude’, we clustered together on the court, all turning towards the scene, like sunflowers to the sun, pointing fingers, scratching our chins, so to say ‘Whose gonna go over there and save her?’
Even in a group consciousness the individual still thinks of his own safety. Its like in a movie I once saw, a little guy is approached by a gang, they threaten him, he says, ‘Yes, you’ll probably kill me, but I swear, I guarantee, that by the end of this, one of you will have lost an eye, not one of them touched him and all left.’
Somewhere in looking at a problem or ‘denying force’ there’s some sort of leisure, a kind of si-do laziness in not bringing about an effective twist or change.
Now in certain ‘other days’ the group of us on the basketball court would have run over and served that guy a certain ‘karmic adjustment’, yet, these days are wrought with ‘fear’ of conscience, particularly the sort of lava-conscience that flows up through the marrow of one’s bones, to the tips of the fingers, pulsing there like some sort of ‘heart beat in each finger-tip’.
Yet, we do not touch and these 10 hearts eventually spiral back down to where they came from, to the regions of our unrealized being, that part which must be stretched in order to not only ‘be the words’, but also ‘pay’ for them and get a ‘certain something’.
Perhaps one could say that ‘naturally speaking’ we cannot pay enough, to consciously alter certain ‘avenues’ of mechanical flow, “cannot pay enough”, that is, the body our being inhabits, has certain ‘shut off valves’, fear is one of them, i.e., a certain thought that says ‘That’s going to cost too much, It will be in court a long time, No one will really listen, It’s just their problem now, Let it implode in on itself…
While all of the above ‘phrases’ will occur naturally, without any conscious effort, in there, in the human-fact stands no-one-will, no-being-body, it is simply a collection of sentences based upon the vacancy of one’s self-will, they are all moot, indisputable realizations based upon the law of seven, that is, that man is a collection of intervals, each new ‘thing’ is so often a deviation from the last one swerving to finish itself out, si-do after si-do, lots of unfinished business keeps the circle of pain body’s chasing their tails.
someone, what I am getting at with all this is that your lazy, the King of Hearts welds the upraised sword, yet he didn’t forge it, nor will it be him who actually gets out on the battle field and puts a slight bend in the blade for having severed a vertebrae on its journey through form, back to the formless swing’s end.
A ‘famous’ person once said, “Ask not what your country can do for you, rather, ask, what can you do for your country.” Now reverse this earth-bound PR statement to your inner world tension and you’ll find perhaps that, in there, is some sort of ‘unfinished business’, some collection of yearning that’s not been brought to fruition, an energetic willingness to get out there and satisfy your wondering, your curiosities.
I would advise you to follow through with your convictions, bring them into the world of form, its out here that you’ll grow up. Its easy to be a lunar when everyone thinks your too busy to be yourself.
Inquisitiveness is beautiful, can you get your fingernails dirty?
This is America, after all, (and California)… In actuality I would suggest that, as an individual, you can do more to effect the ongoing ‘solar eclipse’ in the FoF than the legal system can as a ‘do’… The legal system is perfect at the mi-fa stage, its at the ‘do’ and si-do that the individual must bear enormous stresses of being to ‘fuse’ into a being-lessen got.
This stress is unusual, ‘regular lawyers’ know nothing about its deeper implications, buffering it with coffee-talk, hypocritical judgment of their clients, lunatic energy investments, self-calming before & after rituals and fees that apply a material value to a cerebral talent of ‘being in the kings’, that, relatively speaking, is not altogether as ‘special’ as our automatic desire to defer our unfinished self-will to someone else’s mechanical ‘finished’ will, to ‘be our voice’ of conscience, is.
Law is an aggravating mess and always will be, its the wrong triad, helping another to help themselves in one thing, to hold their hand inside the barrel while going off the edge of Niagara Falls is another.
There is a very firm illusion here in Oregon House, it is also crystallized in the psyche of humanity for the most part, its name is Abraham G., its other name is ‘Too much’.
Yet when you step back from the real internal world within yourself, are these ‘characters’ not simply icons of yourself?
For me, the picture of ‘The Last Supper’ is simply a picture of One Man having dinner with his mind, no one is there, save You, your right here and Here will not give you anything other than what you proportionately propose to it: and within this proposition is an enormous ‘prayer’, one that pales any you could ever send to god or angels ~
Can you be what you wish others would be for you?
So get out there and do something, finish in a Herculean fashion what your soft conscience is yearning for. You have nothing to loose in refining your scale of relativity.
RB is not a special case: if and when all this gets panned out, he’ll be lumped in with the other thousands of cases involving cult leaders and illegal INS mojo, not to mention the ‘personal damages’.
Please, do yourself a favor, don’t ‘think’ someone else is going to do it anyway, no one can remember yourself for you… grow, make the effort to pay for your yearning… deeper being-love is the profit.
______________________________________
Dear YesriBaba ~ (Post #154/9)
Curious as to what you mean by “tricks”?
Love to you.
_______________________________________
Dear Radiccio (Post #158/9)
What is UNEQUAL power? It’s too easy to state the obvious. Its like the guy who hated oak trees so much, that one day he gets up, grabs his chain saw and cuts down all the trees in the world, waving his fist to heaven says “There god, take that, you tree hugging atheist!” He sits, closes his eyes and dies of exhaustion, smiling smugly; all the while leaving behind 15,000 billion acorns.
Go back further, to the subtle details of the formation of the FoF, RB’s connection with the likes of ‘the Horns’, his treatment by his mother & sisters, his lie at the very inception of the FoF.
Things ‘do’ often end as they had began. There is nothing in the FoF ‘spirit or subjective form’ that was not there, standing alone, within RB’s mechanical denying force, his pain body terrain, before, its just older, older also in the internal perceptions of others: yet the passing of time does nothing to change a Feature’s strength, its dissolution cannot occur within itself, bubbles don’t pop themselves …
All this ‘hurt’ has many roots, though only one tap-root; find that tap-root and you’ll find RB’s true-being-state, as a man alone.
The spiritual world is not concerned with justice, revenge and the like. Justice flows, it is the common sense property of conscience and nothing can stop one’s own conscience from unfolding and his will, in its own way, own time, own array of awe.
Don’t worry, be happy, RB will pay proportionately, as all of us are paying
proportionately, no more, no less, no different…he is a man, a being of a certain ‘type’, as all of us are…
Please, do yourself a big favor, get out of imagination that he’s something extra-ordinary in regards to the subject of contradiction and denying force.
Just as Venusians have ‘The Curse of Other’s Lives seeming more interesting than theirs’, Saturns have ‘The Curse of effecting satellites with the power of look-alike projects.’ Objectify RB and free yourselves from adoration of the Magi and Sith. Use the force Luke.
_________________________________
Dear Joseph G (Post #159/9)
What I wrote to Post #153 concerning inquisitiveness being beautiful seems to apply to your searching as well.
I have observed over a period of a very long time that inaction leads to greater rage, greater confusion, greater inertia and the superstition that Karma will take care of it anyway.
Where did it occur? How? That one has forgotten that ‘all is for you’, not Karma, Karma is simply mechanical balance for mechanical imbalance; how come? Perhaps its simply a concoction for us to be present to the blackboard of growing up, moving through this form, after all, form has to be sensible, since we sense.
All in all, Joseph, this ‘play’ is for you to do with what you will, not the other way around, nor is it anyone else’s ‘play’;
try to verify that there is anything outside of your perception of everything,
you cannot do it,
so, make this ‘plays’ yours, whatever that means ‘symbolically’. Whichever feels true to yourself in respect to these combinations of impressions, follow your heart, conscience, you’ll probably laugh allot, see hypocritical nuances in yourself, notice that if your pursuing a right, your also pursuing a wronged, you’ll be a different being for having gone through the looking glass, Wonderland is not just for girls.
To me, the UNEQUAL power, is simply an outsider’s point of view: there is no ‘real’ power in the FoF hierarchy, only feature plays, pain body litigation, personal reinstatement of ego-drama-roles, identification with one’s role as a seeker and the sought, a teacher’s level of being, whose simply not what the doctor ‘thinks’ he ordered and an incredible amount of copious indifference to one’s conscience; yet, even that is based on certain ‘odd’ ways of growing up… In the end, which is actually a beginning, everyone crosses the Finish Line, even RB.
All this pain is not static in of itself, let it flow, it can lead you to that which brings the lotus to grow from putrid swamps.
Do your part for You, all the unequal power is an illusory image, a king of hearts static ‘idea’ of injustice, selfishness…
Step back a ways and ask ~ How is it?
not Why is it? People are imagining themselves all the time, if it looks like a dream, it’s because, it is a dream.
Try playing basketball with a golf ball.
Try golfing with a basketball.
These odd exercises will shed some light on what Unequal power really is. To me, its simply an impression from the outside, of an internal dream scape being lived out willy-nilly like in external circumstances, most of which we notice, choose, put together into our ‘little story’, all along
‘thinking’ we’re right because ‘that’s wrong’.
Well, so what? Now that RB is wrong and you are right, so what?
Go a few steps further, the FoF dissolves, RB is in jail, GH is in jail, everybody who ‘should’ be there is, while others are ‘healing’, so what?
God comes thundering through the clouds, Jesus parts the Pacific Ocean, I ride my motor bike to Hawaii, then to Japan, before the waves crash down and all those who were not motor cyclists die in a swirling mass: angels descend, bikers ascend… so what?
What can we ‘do’ that does not involve our mind activity?
_______________________________________
To WhaleRider (Post#164)
You wrote, “There’s no historical precedent for this kind of teacher.”
Hummm… Well, there is, look deeper into the world history of spiritual-ego-gurus, you’ll find RB’s ‘ ‘brothers’ and ‘sisters’ are numerous.
“There is nothing new under the Sun.” That goes for all the ‘special’ nuisances of RB’s role as well. Everything that is not conscious in RB’s play, his role, is repeatable by another ego form or ‘player’.
What is conscious is You, not repeatable by another, since, as far as I know, no one can be you while you’re you; if so, we’re in for some funky surprises down the road.
And if so, I’m game. I recall hearing about a Indian Guru who used to tie a balloon to his toe each night. When someone asked him why he did that, he answered ~
“It’s in case I wake up in the morning as someone else, I’ll know its me.”
Yeah, give me more of that!
Love to you all.
May 16, 2007 at 10:36 pm
Siddiq, re your #161:
Disappointing. I’m reminded of a child marching around with her fingers in her ears going “Lalalalalalalala” when she doesn’t want to hear something.
In your case, you use the term “beauty” or “beautiful” no less than five times, not to mention “angelic” and “wonderful.” Experiencing positive emotions and beauty is nice. Being present is, as Martha Stewart says, a good thing. But even they can be used as buffers. In fact, I wonder whether someone else has written #161 to sully your name with a parody of how degenerate “work on oneself” can become.
Your protestations of “there’s nothing to be done” remind me of the archetypal Kitty Genovese story, about the woman who was stabbed to death, screaming, while a dozen witnesses did nothing. The phenomenon of standing around and watching an innocent person harmed, while saying to oneself “what could I do? I didn’t want to get involved” has become known as the “bystander effect” or “Genovese syndrome.” Of course, “no witnesses directly saw the final rape and attack in an exterior hallway which resulted in Genovese’s death.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kitty_Genovese
Ever hear Phil Ochs’ “Small Circle of Friends”?
Look outside the window, there’s a woman being grabbed
They’ve dragged her to the bushes and now she’s being stabbed
Maybe we should call the cops and try to stop the pain
But Monopoly is so much fun, I’d hate to blow the game
And I’m sure it wouldn’t interest anybody
Outside of a small circle of friends.
I’m also reminded of the Eloi, the spoiled, beautiful, simple-minded descendants of humans in H.G. Wells’ The Time Machine, who live a life of aimless luxury. As the Wikipedia entry puts it, “While one initially has the impression that the Eloi live a life of play and toilless abundance, it is revealed that the Morlocks are tending to the Eloi’s needs for the same reason a farmer tends to cattle – because the Eloi compose most (if not all) of the Morlocks’ diet and the Eloi are no longer capable of acting in any other role than to be eaten by the Morlocks.” http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Eloi
But as long as you do the sequence while someone else is Earl the Pearl’s prey of the day, I suppose it’s all good.
May 16, 2007 at 11:02 pm
This blog is part of the play of RB. According to his astrological life chart, something has to end in 2007. Maybe the FoF will dissolve, maybe he’ll stop teaching. This blog is the mechanic for that. Just as RB’s play is a mechanic for somebody else’s.
And that’s all and everything it is, mechanical. Do we want be identified with this? Or shall we simply try to be here now.
Amidst all the BS and self-PR, there is also an explosion of knowledge here. The new paradigm of the 3 lines of work, for example, is inspirational. It is externally considerate and such ‘I’s are the only ones that are in the same ballpark as a reality. Why not focus on external consideration.
It’s a good idea to meet each other and work on something together. There is no more need for words.
May 16, 2007 at 11:23 pm
166: Elena:
>The hallmark of inner considering is shame.
Dear Elena/All,
Your statement above is important and requires a separate response:
The hallmark of inner considering is not shame. And anyone who thinks that inner considering is embarrassment in the presence of someone else is also barking up a twig instead of up the main tree. This is a trivial and relatively harmless form of inner considering in comparison with the really humungus space taken up by the inner considering that Mr G. tries to draw our attention to.
Please read the section of In Search of the Miraculous (p.151-3 in the English edition) that I directed you to. There is NO mention whatsoever of ‘shame’ or of any form of embarrassment.
Read the relevant section and you will see that many posters are mired in inner considering: FoF did this to them, and FoF did that to them, and RB did this and did that, and didn’t do this and didn’t do that. Inner considering.
It is a lamentable fact that people presume to pass expert judgement on FoF and its students, yet don’t know even the beginner basics of the 4th Way.
May 16, 2007 at 11:32 pm
Tis a noble thing you do Sheik. Just thought I’d mention it.
May 17, 2007 at 12:40 am
#157 Self Remembering
Your post brought to mind some thoughts maybe not directly related but kind of.
It may be too easy to direct culpabuility to vanity and credulity in our romp with the fof. For me , in retrospect, it is too apparent that the “special feelings” and synchronous events surrounding our meeting the fof were a shadow cast by the grand hand of a giant Daimon.
It is impossible to see directly the motions of this but for myself joining and leaving and times in between I felt this. Perhaps we were led there to learn the lessons of vanity, credulity and the ignorance inherent in conceptualization. We were “faked” into twisting this and turning it inside out and shrinking it into “c-influence”.
As with so many things it is all upside down. We are not creating a soul, Soul is creating us.
May 17, 2007 at 4:03 am
Interesting to see more postings by Anonymous. It’s helpful to be reminded how the fully hypnotised FOF mind works, using phrases that sound vaguely meaningful and ‘spiritual’ but when looked at closely and in context have no substance. We can look at the FOF website and newsletter for more developed examples of the same phenomenon.
Anonymous’s sloganeering illustrates well the intellectual and emotional shallowness of those providing smokesceens for the FOF’s weird activities, the perplexing unwillingless to see Truth that is staring them right in the face.
Oh well, maybe one day!
What a contrast with some of the vivid, thoughtful recent posts from Joseph G, Radiccio and many others.
cheers, RB
May 17, 2007 at 5:07 am
Dear Annoyingmouse,
“Sex is simple and beautiful. It only becomes disturbing when people
have already decided to leave.”
That would explain why I keep having disturbing sex then?
Blistering logic, thank you Spock. Scottie beam me up I forgot my snoopy dildo.
Love,
Ryan
May 17, 2007 at 5:50 am
So many amazing posts, so little time to read and respond…
Most recently, #157, I appreciated your clarity. Thanks,
#170: I often explained the contradictory experiences I had with RB by the ‘black magician’ explanation. “Intermediate realm” of Aurobindo, also helpful for resolving contradictions he poses. Thanks for reminder.
#142: No person. Your explanation of leaving FoF, finding fresh air corresponds closely with something I wrote when I left. The metaphor I used was leaving a heavy, dense smoke-filled room I had come to imagine as fresh air…and then the amazement of walking into actual fresh air.
#141: Charles R: I like the word succubus, nice choice, it ironically fits so well what we have here: a female demon having sex with men in their sleep.
Shelly: Hello, I am sorry to have missed A. growing up and trust all is well with you both. R will be 21 next week!
#99:L Rita. Thanks for your explanation of why you write under your own name. I concur with much of what you said.
And I want to encourage anyone who is reading this and has not written yet to take the plunge. The simple act of ‘going public,’ of giving voice to these experiences, to stepping out from the invisible ‘gag order’ many of us have been under with each other has proven to be surprisingly, enormously, healing.
Healing in the sense of integrating these (for some of us) huge pieces of our lives into who we are today. Otherwise, this piece of the past, at least for me, forms a dark chapter that I have had to find ways to skip around or euphemize (is there such a word) when speaking with people who haven’t been through something similar.
It is also healing in the sense of finding myself becoming more aware, touching and letting go a deeper layer of memory, anger,joy, pain, confusion, grief — beautiful! I so appreciate the forum for this, and using my name helps shake any remaining shame, helps me to stand and be counted.
Thank you to the many people who have had kind words to say here, and to those who even directed some of those words towards me. I am surprised by how grateful I am for that. I wish I knew who you were. I do love knowing who is writing and thank you for the courage in coming forth.
Joel, you know how great it is for me to hear your responses here and looking forward to your longer thoughts too.
#55 Bruce: Thanks for your supportive post.
#48 Abigail: What to say? I acknowledge that I have behaved in deplorable ways, abused the power I was given, been cold, uncaring, superior, a know-it-all, full of myself, judgmental, obsequious, unkind, domineering, pig-headed,greedy. I’ve used and seduced others, turned a blind eye to the obvious — the list is very long. I am just glad your grievance with me isn’t more severe.
For you, since an apology may not be acceptable (although I do apologize), I would wish that you find a way to acknowledge your role in giving your power away to anyone, not just me. And that you will find your way also to acceptance and forgiveness of this and the others involved. If you are this harsh on others, I am guessing you may also be on yourself (speaking from my experience, of course). I wish for you that you find a way to the Lightness you are, to that place that sustains us and chases away the death grip we sometimes have on our pain.
Your post caused me to remember when I was first inducted to center directorship. It was 1974 and I had been a student for an entire 16 months. During that time, each week I used to drive from Carmel (where I lived) to SF then back to Carmel then to Santa Barbara and to LA for meetings that RB was leading. Then Seattle was added, and I drove there too. Kind of maniacal, but I fueled by being “in love” with the teaching,and I was not the only one.
After a meeting in Seattle, I recall RB coming over to me and telling me he would like me to lead the new Portland Center. I was flaberghasted as well as flattered, as I was such a new student, with at least 150 -200 others who had been around longer than me. I told him, stammering, that he must be kidding, I couldn’t do it. But he asked me to think about it seriously since he knew it was right for me, that I was ‘on the way’ and it was a necessary step for my evolution. (ho hum)
I agreed to think about it that night, went to sleep on the floor somewhere for a few hours,then woke in the wee hours and sat bolt upright, in a turmoil, staring at the walls, saying outloud to myself “I do not know anything, I am completely ‘asleep’ and lost here. I cannot possibly do this.” My mind was made up. The next morning, I gathered myself together and told him: “No, I don’t feel right about this. I am not ready to do this.” I don’t think I will ever forget how he handled my objection. He looked at me straight on and simply said:
“Goodness, someone has to do it.”
I think of this as an example of his ability to read people. Because for me these were the magic words, when he said that, I completely got it. This directive made perfect sense to me, and fit so well with my personality and my self-image.
I was the oldest of four, born of a troubled teenage mother and had been taking on far more responsibility than I was ready for from a very young age. So, I perfectly understood that ‘someone had to do it’, even if you were not really up to it and would be better off doing other things. So, I said, okay and that was it — I was made a minister and launched into intangible sales (aka center directorship) for the next ten years.
My traveling feature days came within a year or two of that, by then I was the ripe old age of 26 or 27….wise beyond my years, of course, and full of good counsel for all, and not a bit of it went to my head. (haha)
When I left he did have the decency to say, I think I owe you a thank you for all you have done (although you are making the biggest mistake of your life).
#11: Dear Help. For what it is worth, unfortunately, I don’t think rescuing the victims in abusive relationships can work. Damn if I didn’t try for many years though! (someone has to do it). After banging my head against the wall in FoF and with my family, I finally line up with those who say that a person needs to be ready to cut the abusive cord themselves before they can begin toget away.
Then the trauma books, support from others, etc. can help to move them along and then to begin to recover from the aftermath, the “PTSD symptoms” that so many of us have had to deal with after the mind-fuck we allowed ourselves (willing victims, all) to go through. Such relationships are mixed with all those goodies, you know, and play on infantile fears and wishes we can’t even imagine when we are in their grip. Actually, it’s a miracle to get out is what I think!
One more thought, maybe it takes being out for 15-20 years, especially for those of us who spent 15-20+ years in this strangely sick, yet wonderfully life-enhancing, environment to be ready to let ‘the fine mess’ we participated in for so long in without falling completely apart. For, the whole picture of the fine mess is a big blow, takes strength to absorb, as others have said here.
So, here we are benefitting from each other, from this community of souls holding this space, listening, caring — souls who have been there and have the grit to go on…
With warm heart and appreciation — at this moment anyway.
Sandy (as I am known now by many)
May 17, 2007 at 6:15 am
Hey,Radiccio, you must be a friend of MooreOn because he also knows flattery will get you everywhere.
There is a get-together in OH Saturday. I invite you as my guest and I will answer your questions there. C U.
PS: Your i about WPP’s group is incorrect.
Wrong Paradigm.
May 17, 2007 at 6:21 am
First, thank you most of all to the Sheik & Knight for making this venue possible. Thank you all for your posts: Rabbi Burns, Yesri Babba, Unoanimo, Sandra C., Joseph G., Bruce, Skeptical Optimist, Cathie, Whale Rider, and all of you unnamed others. You have been helping me to heal. And to Howard Carter, Siddiq & others who remind me how my heart and mind were molded, beginning in those most impressionable years of early adulthood.
Some people grow up fast, having a hard life, and leave their family at perhaps fifteen or seventeen. This is not my case. I grew up a devout Catholic and spirituality was central to my life. I was not thrust into the world but allowed to grow at my own pace which I must say was slow. I arrived in the FOF at 25, but was still young and tender in my psychology. So I can see what Joseph G. is speaking about when he speaks about age not being a factor when being seduced, especially by a “conscious being”.
When I met Robert B. it was at a Christmas Party in 1973. I was introduced – he looked at me briefly and bowed his head & body three times with his eyes to the floor and backed away from me. I thought, “This is the teacher?”
It is interesting that he was already developing the holy humble act – “the man who is different from all others.” You might ask yourself where he got these acts because he certainly didn’t develop them when he was teaching 4th grade.
I did not get a feeling of love from R.B., but I did get it from the students who were very huggy and warm. Who does not need love? The warmth of the students and the three prospective student meetings had me off and running for the next 20 years of my life.
I threw myself into making myself over. I was going to awaken and nothing was going to hold me back. We were given various word “exercises” to disrupt our normal way of speaking. One of the words we couldn’t say was the word “I”, so we began calling ourselves “it” instead.
Although the word exercises were introduced to disrupt mechanicality (that word is not in the Microsoft Word dictionary, by the way) I now know that this is a classic indoctrination technique. It begins to separate and create a new reality for you from the world at large. You, as a group, become dependant on one another, and when R.B. tells you to leave your “life family” behind, it seems a natural step.
That you are only false personality when you come into a “school” is another idea that makes you throw away all your values. You must create “true personality”. While it is true that there is a continuum from shallow to deep, a true student will attempt to become a clean slate to be filled in by whatever the teacher and directors deem appropriate.
You are told how to talk, how to dress – you pick up how to act. Notice how no one cavorts around R.B.? Not appropriate! Must look intentional! It is a wonder that anyone can untangle themselves from the Fellowship. You have to determine what is true – the real truths that led you in will still be true when you leave. Figure out what you have swallowed as truth and what you have come to believe through the closed society of the FOF. And for God’s sake, please really listen to R.B. and what he is saying. Try to separate yourself from the idea that he is conscious. This is all programming. He is pulling divinations out of the air with no foundation other than your belief in what he says is true.
And dear Siddiq, I know where you are coming from in #8/421. You are a seemingly sincere person. Don’t you know how much R.B. leans on the Sufi wisdom and poetry and the countless other quotes he uses to get inside your mind and heart? He is nothing without these crutches. He uses C-Influence, 44 conscious beings, almost all are world famous men known for great works and words of wisdom which he has co-opted for his own. He is a charismatic personality with reflected glory from all these great men. Just think how he has ornamented himself by making you think that they are all working for him, in his school.
Love and gratitude to you all.
The Quiet One …speaks.
May 17, 2007 at 6:36 am
“Post big pictures of Brian S. and Kevin K. and any other collaterally damaged souls I don’t know about on the walls as a memorial to what can go wrong in this cult”
WhaleRider, as a personal friend of Brian,I find this pathetic suggestion by you to be utterly without conscience, especially from one who has been a “damaged soul”.
Although you have been milking your “without consent” story for all it is worth, I guess you are too filled with self-pity to be able to think clearly before hitting the submit button.
May 17, 2007 at 7:16 am
Hello again, Siddiq (#9-161)
I also have experience of those “golden times”. I had them before the FOF, during the FOF, and after the FOF. And, they are becoming more frequent, rather than less. So, I have questions for you.
The first question is, do you need a relationship to Burton or the FOF to have these experiences? I certainly don’t, despite his claims that presence and consciousness is only possible with his intercession (I’d be glad to post a transcription of a typical interview with him, stating this—in context, if you like).
The second question is, if you must stay in the FOF to have these golden moments (this is implied in your posts), is it worth any price? You say you can’t ‘do’ anything about a lot of things, and you’re right, but you could investigate the claims that are near to you if you wanted, just like I did. Your choice, of course. If you don’t want to, why not? Supposing you were to find substance to these allegations, then a reasonable question would be, does the means justify the end? That is, if bad things happen to others, and you have evidence of it, can you stand by and just observe, and continue to profit from the situation without compunction? Or is there a price, not all of it to be paid by others, that is too great for the personal advantage gained?
Burton claims that his ‘super-sexual’ adventures feed his astral body, the implication being that this brings advantages to the students at large as well as the students participating. Does ‘collateral damage’ have an effect on you, do you bear any responsibility? These are the questions I struggled with. You know what the answers were for me, and what I decided. My guess is, that at some point you’ll arrive at a place one day where you must answer them as well. What the correct answers are for any given individual depends on that individual, but first he has to be an individual, that is, make the questions his own, and get the answers for himself—so the usual rote angles are not going to help here!
Warm regards,
Ames
May 17, 2007 at 7:57 am
Rita,
I go nowhere. I have my life and I live them well. Reading your posts, it is evident that you are posessed by a vengeful whispering part within you. If that’s life for you, enjoy it.
May 17, 2007 at 8:04 am
To unoanimo #188:
“Well, there is, (a historical precedent for this kind of teacher) look deeper into the world history of spiritual-ego-gurus, you’ll find RB’s ‘brothers’ and ’sisters’ are numerous.”
You are so right in the sense that he has plenty of company among other frauds. My wording was unclear. Thanks for that!
I don’t believe there is a historical precedent for a legitimate enlightened teacher to act in the manner that RB does. That’s what I meant.
To Radiccio: Thanks for your concern, comrade. Miles bailed in 1985 along with an exodus of many others including myself. Guess I’ll have to take my chances. My saving grace should the FOF out me is that truth is on my side.
To Innernaut #174: Nice post. You can’t describe water to a fish. Ever read the book Flatland, by Edwin Abbot?
Heresay #165: Go hit your head against the wall if you are unclear about what’s real. BE careful though, it might stimulate actual thinking.
Anonymous #185 re:#168: Classic example of projection as a defense mechanism. Project what you don’t want to see about yourself onto ‘sleeping life’. Shame on you!
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 17, 2007 at 8:36 am
Congratulation!
Today is the Full Moon!
In FOF that usualy means a lot of trouble.Gurdjiev was saying that the Work suppose to deliberate man from external influence,especially from the moon influence but in FOF the moon acts for a God.The longer the students are stay in FOF the more they becomes affected by this idea.
During my time in FOF I was observing many students and especially the older students who were experiencing a lot of frictions and difficulties during the New and the Full moon.At the same time all of those difficulties were explained by the moon’s influence.Or by the meteor showers or by the “August” idea and of course by the “Mars is closer to the Earth”.
But since I left FOF those celestial influences are mysteriously disappeared and totally stoped bothering my mind.I have simply forgot about them.
I think this is a typical Fellowship bullshit.A kind of “a house specials”.The same way were created farther ideas such as: “9 lifetimes”,”the ideal Plato state”,”The Ark”,”the 30 imperishable stars”,the “Sequence” ,”the 4 wordless breathes” and “the Asaf”.
Even duo those ideas are ridicules in their essence,they were still keeping people in deep sleep without any hope to awaken because no matter what you will do,you still will die at the very best on your 8th lifetime.
I can only imagine how many angry faces are cursing our beautiful moon tonight,which has for centuries inspired many poets,musicians and other artists to create an eternal Beauty.
May 17, 2007 at 9:44 am
#188 Unoanimo
In that post i was comparing you to a slight- of-hand magician performing tricks. I knew one fairly well and he was almost constantly practicing his manual dexterity techniques. A lot of time goes into perfecting simple illusions.
You seem able to do the opposite. Your tricks seem to dispel illusions returning to a certain core understanding. What is so impressive is the range. I can only surmise that this is a talent first and that you have spent a good amount of time and effort to create the style and syntax.
Some people are good at some stuff others at other stuff. When I put my brain in a jar next to the computer it just sits gazing longingly at me.
It was meant to be a compliment, not an off-hand-slight.
P.S. one thing bugs me though. You use the pronouns your and their in places where the contractions you’re and they’re should be used. I hesitate to mention it because you use poetic license with quite a few words but I don’t think these are “intensional”.
May 17, 2007 at 1:11 pm
to Anonymous 8/186
Thanks for your answer. First I thought, oh well another oneliner, this guy is really too stubborn to tango. But then I realized yes, of course in your world it appears to you that everybody is under mind control and you project that what applies to you is true for the others as well. How could it be different? If you look around on the Earth, that is what your mind tells you, that everybody is mind controlled.
Maybe there is another world out there, but you have to allow yourself to see it.
I guess my post 8/168 was too much of a bombardment, sorry for that, so I like to ask you about two things in regard to your invitation to join the FOF and check it out.
1. If I would join or is there a legitimate reason to leave? I know everybody can leave if they like, but is there a way to leave and be still respected from members? Do you believe the FOF is the only organisation on the planet where people can learn something about awakening? Or is the only way not to be confronted with condemning staying and paying till I die?
2. I read the reason for the existence of the FOF is to build an ark, help humanity and that it is a school of love. So please explain, how does the FOF help humanity now? How is the love of the FOF expressed towards humanity? How is it expressed towards all the Exmembers, the prodigal sons and daughters of the FOF? How do you experience that love?
……………………………
And thanks for all the posts clarifying the history of teachers (Horn, Pentland).
May 17, 2007 at 2:45 pm
203: Full Mooner
>But since I left FOF those celestial influences are mysteriously disappeared and totally stoped bothering my mind.
This is because you are safely encased in the shell of personality once again; and your essence, which is sensitive to celestial influences, is once more moribund.
May 17, 2007 at 3:19 pm
Unoanimo I have a question for you and it’s not tricky either.
Is this blog printable?
If it is don’t go anywhere. I need to go about my spaces and see one up.
P.S. you’ve went and done it again.
May 17, 2007 at 3:58 pm
202: Whalerider:
>Anonymous #185 re:#168: Classic example of projection as a defense mechanism. Project what you don’t want to see about yourself onto ’sleeping life’.
Projection:
In Psychoanalytic Theory, the defense mechanism whereby we transfer or project our feelings about one person onto another.
Defense Mechanisms:
Psychological forces which prevent undesirable impulses from entering consciousness (e.g. projecting anger onto a spouse as opposed to your boss).
I recommend the Whale take a beginner’s course in psychology. Then he will be able to speak more precisely when he feels the need to use terms from pop psychology.
May 17, 2007 at 4:15 pm
With open heart
And lowered gaze
At Guru’s feet
With eyebrow raised
Burma-Shave
May 17, 2007 at 4:33 pm
Exlax #199:
Your post makes you appear to be a person with a chip on your shoulder looking for a fight. There is something behind your eyes that is clouding your vision. Your reaction is an example of a process called spontaneous regression. You read, you react emotionally, regressing instantly back to an earlier buried pain, and it drives your “thinking”. Stick to how YOU feel, someone in your past made you feel pathetic, someone whom you could not confront (someone who should have provided you milk and did not, perhaps?), and you project that feeling onto me in the service of your ego. If something bothers you that intensly ask youself, “what is it about this person that reminds me of something I don’t like in myself?” Then you will begin to know yourself.
I am sorry if my wording was unclear, and thank you for bringing that to my attention. I too, knew Brian S. He was a kind and gentle soul, and a hard worker. I was shocked to hear about the manner of his passing and digusted by how the FOF reacted, washing their hands of him. My intent is not in any way to disrespect him or his memory. The idea was to provide a memorial to him and others about what could go wrong with the FOF, NOT him. He suffered so, and I can empathize with that. The FOF spins his story with work language to wash their hands of any responsibility, lacking compassion for those most in need. Can we both agree on that?
My personal story is not about milking self-pity; it’s far from that. It is a dark warning to others, told in the most poetic way I can muster.
Keep posting, only by expressing your negative feelings and thoughts do they become the mirror in which you hopefully can see yourself. I mean that sincerely.
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 17, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Elena (#136),
You didn’t “cure” G. You have complained to others that G spent all day looking at hard-core stuff, and … well, the details get graphic. You’ve also complained to others that he was violent with you.
You can’t keep shape-shifting your story to fit your current self-image — sometimes a tantric healer, sometimes mater dolorosa, sometimes femme fatale, sometimes as Joan of Arc leading the nation.
If the relationship you had was the love of your life, you haven’t had much of a life. Get one.
It sounds like your relationship was a sick puppy, and it was good that it was put down. Instead, you keep stapling valentines on it.
In any case, it’s sneaky to put things you know in other people’s mouths so you can avoid taking responsibility for them.
Look in the mirror. Say: “He dumped me. He isn’t coming back. He’s taken his pea heart and gone away.”
Then start a new day. You have a life ahead of you. Live it.
May 17, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Dear Full Mooner:
Probably you meant to call our attention to the new moon. The full moon will happen in a couple of weeks. No blame. From certain perspectives the moon is always full.
May 17, 2007 at 5:46 pm
On the subject of belief:
One great man said the words which became my motto:
“May my wish to understand be stronger than my need to believe”.
As I see it, the need to believe and to follow springs out from the fear of the unknown. Instead of applying one’s effort to understand, one can choose the safety of trusting someone else’s interpretation of the reality and so one becomes a ‘second-hand being’ – a person who lies about what he knows for himself as truth. Belief robs a person of a possibility to go through fear and create his own understanding.
May 17, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Kiran,
Erected fallos is a simbol of God Shiva, becouse Shiva is a great ascetic and sits in meditation for a long time keeping His sex energy (not becouse He makes love all the time).
Decent person wouldn’t attack women like you attack Rowena (even if she did hurt somehow your feelings).
People flatter you becouse you have money but Gods wouldn’t.
May 17, 2007 at 6:38 pm
The Quiet One (198): “And for God’s sake, please really listen to Robert and what he is saying. Try to separate yourself from the idea that he is conscious. This is all programming. He is pulling divinations out of the air with no foundation other than your belief in what he says is true.”
This is spot on! The belief that Robert is conscious is drilled into us from the very beginning of our time in the FOF. After a few years it becomes unquestionable, even though there is no real evidence that it is true.
All you current FOFers, please try to look at this with an open mind. Why do you believe Robert is conscious? Don’t accept the first superficial answers that come into your mind – look deeper. For me, and several others I’ve spoken to, this was the last illusion to fall away. We really clung onto it. It justifies all the absurdities of the FOF. When it evetually does fall away, the sense of freedom and wonder at normal, everyday life can be almost overwhelming.
Full Moom (203). Thanks for mentioning that. Yes, the FOF moon theories are just plain silly – how many times did I catch myself feeling great on a moon and then tried to justify that inconvenient fact in some convoluted way! Why did we persaude oursleves to believe these crazy theories when they were directly contradicted by our own experience?
RB
May 17, 2007 at 6:54 pm
arthur, post 182:
“Is I’s I’s the correct spelling of Fort Isis?”
This just cracked me up. Funniest thing I’ve read here for quite a while.
I also carried around the baggage you describe of “Don’t talk bad about the work, don’t talk bad about the school, don’t talk bad about the teacher” etc. In my case, it was out of fear — fear of divine retribution, fear of eternal damnation, fear that “my little song was sung.”
Turns out my little song isn’t yet over — though in my case it’s a loud electric guitar solo.
May 17, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Sheik, thanks for deleting my previous postings–seems hard to get through these days if you want to balance the rumormill with some truth.
Here are a few titbits:
Brian S. Many tried to help him in many ways, he was an incurable alcoholic and although was given a task not to drink, simply refused to stop. This may not explain all that happened to him, but many tried to counsel him, tell him to stop drinking, etc.
Kevin K. I personally was in the Palo Alto Center and have spoken to his wife at the time, yes this was almost certainly a suicide brought on by depression. Also his doctor had changed his medications in the last week before he died–perhaps another factor in the mix. His life certainly was not easy, but to blame FOF for his suicide is far fetched.
Kiran’s wife was frequently very embarrased by Kiran’s shameless pawing of the girls–seems even before he left K tried to act the little RB role and could care less about his own wife who he disrespected. Wonder what she would be thinking about his milking of her death now–seems he gets more out of her now than when alive. But after all, K is still in a coma, now of his own making.
May 17, 2007 at 6:59 pm
When I read some postings here, like Anonymous and such, defending and justifying FOF in a one-sentence manner, with condemnation and judgment to us, “losers” – I say to myself – “I too was just like that, just like that”.
And it is so true – for many years while in FOF I was “intentionally” blind and deaf to all the contradictory information, evidence, facts, stories… I learned to be blind and deaf to my own conscience, too – it was conveniently labeled and a voice of feminine dominance.
I would dismiss the contradictions and “keep my own work” – whatever the heck it meant.
The critical information was actually always available, may be not as much as now. Certainly there was nothing existing like this blog (thank you Sheik again for doing a good deed). But I deliberately avoided the “bad” stories and criticism, fearing (or may be just knowing) that if I allow it in and digest it – the buffers and lies to myself will have to go. Nobody kept me in the dark, but myself. Once or twice during my membership ( in an “interval”, I guess) I opened and read Rick Ross and Stella’s websites, and each time a very uncomfortable feeling crept in: ” It sounds so true…I saw these things too…” And then immediately – “But it can not be true! These people really DON’T KNOW what’s really going on inside the school, they just lie here out of bitterness and revenge, they are losers, they have no idea!!!”… Somehow this buffer really worked every time – it quickly put me in a “defense of the school” mode, “fight the infidels” kind of spirit. I even posted something once on a Russian blog, totally in Anonymous or H. Carter style. It would be hysterical to dig it up and read it again now!
By the way have you noticed that in the school there is a label virtually for everything? And when you label it, usually in one learned sentence or phrase, you feel so right and so good about yourself. Funny, isn’t it? As if a system label can bring you closer to real understanding… Well, we learn this tricks from you know who. He is a master de-coder, key-er and labeler.
Does all this stuff sound familiar to you? I have a feeling a lot of us went through this deafness and buffering, to finally discover that there is beautiful meaningful life after FOF. May be it is somewhat a NATURAL process that seekers go through?.. Work your way through deception to clarity, so to speak?
So I do understand and feel for our friends who are still under the deaf/blind spell, and it may take time for some of them to get really tired of BS and lies and deceiving themselves. I feel for them, I know their pain, their anger. (Although they may sincerely think they don’t express any negativity, but whatever…)
I don’t think they are brainwashed idiots. I don’t think they are cold and heartless. This is simply what happens to normal people when their conscience gets comfortably numb. I WAS JUST LIKE THAT MYSELF.
It took many years for me to unclog these ears and cure the “shiny eyes” syndrome… Some non-dual books really pushed it for me. Forever grateful to John Wheeler! (His new book is out, BTW).
So all I can do is to sincerely wish our stuck friends an emergence of conscience and, sooner – better! RB may be beyond help, (even beyond medical help) but most of our friends in FOF could still use a hand.
Much love and support to all.
May 17, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Read this carefully and think about how many times you’ve made adjustments in your mind as to what Robert must have actually meant:
Daily Card – May 17, 2007
To make a machine conscious and immortal is the ultimate task, and to achieve this everything is asked from us.
Love, Robert
May 17, 2007 at 7:17 pm
Hello,
Allow me to introduce myself. My name is Disinformation. Some people describe me as “false information deliberately and often covertly spread in order to influence public opinion or obscure the truth.”
That’s about right; I cannot deny it. So now that you know something more about me, I’d like to show you some of my work on the Fellowship of Friends Wikipedia page (as of today):
“Since the Fourth Way teaching says that different levels of hydrogens rule over different bodies in man, the “inevitable hydrogen warfare” Burton mentions in his book might well be related to this ‘civil war within’, since it is common for spiritual teachers to talk in parables [as in Matthew 3:13].”
This is some of my best work. No, Robert Burton never predicted that a depression would occur in 1984, and he never predicted a cataclysmic earthquake would occur in 1998, and he never predicted that World War III would occur in 2006, and he never predicted that the Fellowship of Friends would be the seat of a new civilization. And he never said that 44 angels were guiding him in these predictions. That would sound insane. So we needed to rewrite the history of the Fellowship of Friends a bit to avoid the inevitable negative impression this would make on potential recruits and other observers.
So, everyone return to what you were doing. No need for alarm. Please move along.
Oh, and you may be wondering why a group of people who preach Love and Consciousness and Enlightenment would feel justified in distorting the truth that way. I’m still working on that one. But perhaps one of you can give it a try.
May 17, 2007 at 7:37 pm
To unoanimo:
Yesri baba writes, refering to a “magician” (post 9/204)
“You seem able to do the opposite. Your tricks seem to dispel illusions returning to a cetain core uderstanding.”
More than true, at least to me…
I love your posts and, I tenderly look at myself experiencing an inner “jump” when a new one appears!
Now I can ask myself: Why ?
I do not need too much digging to realise I am waitting for the triks!
Not your fault… An observation!
I want to go a bit dipper into this though because it involves responsibility.
Because I am sure I am not special an the one you call “dear readers” might be visiting the same area in themselves, I sense your task, when you write could include:
avoid using “hypnotysm”.
You recieve “visions”, you can transfer powerful images but, please, do not loose track of your “dear readers”, meaning, the one participating to this blog!
Clearly, you are a writer.
This blog is a meaningful stage!
Be careful because as you, yourself mentioned, it ends the way it started… Please, no “trick” but “talent”!
Gratitude.
May 17, 2007 at 7:58 pm
Elena says,
Hello Radiccio, thank you for asking.
To me, what is worth exploring for those of us who have submitted to life at Isis, Renaissance or Apollo for a good number of years, is the possibility of looking at the effects of Robert’s and Girard’s, sexuality, psychology, personal and social behavior. In other words, their three lines of work, with the prism that I proposed before in which I hold the belief that in as much as an individual’s sexuality is a very significant aspect of his identification with the world, it determines the way she/he will establish or neglect to establish a marital relationship and the way this is established or neglected, will determine the way he/she participates in the community. The community of Isis, was “closed” enough to reveal certain patterns that we do not usually grasp in the openness of ‘life’, hence, the validity of the experiment.
It would be much nicer if I did not have to use the names of Robert or Girard because at this point there is nothing personal against them and I wish neither one, any harm, even though I believe the Fellowship is a dangerous cult and students need to change it drastically or leave it. I also think that two men who were pretentious enough to convince us that they had something above the rest of us for thirty five years (I don’t quite know the exact figure), whom we loved and worked for, can at least forgive me for making them the subject of the present analysis. Since we all know them fairly well in their external behavior, it makes it easier to exemplify what I am saying so that you can verify it for yourself or question it further.
I am personally understanding what I am trying to say as I expose it, so a great deal of correction and refining will have to come in this exploration and I hope those of you that can tune into it might eventually highlight areas in which I am very weak. So here it is:
It is a fact that in our times, the life we have to live within the society, the need to produce money under certain conditions, has “acted” against the family and hence, the individual, but it is precisely this on going fluctuation between the individual, the marriage and the community; the community, the marriage and the individual, where we can explore the multiple aspects of the three lines of work and the consciousness with which each of us and all of us, move within them.
In closed societies with hierarchical instinctive structures like that of the fellowship or any cult or dictatorship, the flow of “life” (in the most beautiful sense of the word) becomes stagnant in the person in charge because everything within it begins to be determined by him and the leader develops into a dictator. It is, as if in a galaxy, only the sun were able to participate and everything else got burnt out.
If we look at the Fellowship, what is interesting is how this determination is colored by Robert and Girard’s own sexual conditioning.
Robert’s First line: Intimate relationships.
Utilitarian sexuality without the richness of marriage, without the friction, the questioning, the confrontation, the consistent loving between two people to “trim each other’s feathers.”
Second line: Person to person interactions.
Utilitarian relationships with both males and females within the community determined by money or services. Closely controlled delegation.
No time for friendship. Robert has no “friends”, that I know of. That is, he does not have people with whom to talk with leisurely, without any particular aim but the joy of spending time together without ulterior motives.
Family: the royal family perhaps? The Tudor’s? Which reinforce his imaginary “kingly” picture?
I understand he is “ruthless” with his inner circle.
Third line: The community.
Robert has established the guidelines of life at Isis in very specific forms. He addresses the rest of the student’s en masse meetings and dinners in which food is not honored but discarded and it is encouraged to look at him at all times. There is no dialogue, no spontaneity, no freedom of expression. The teacher and his assistants present material researched by a hundred students which is closely tampered by Robert.
He has imposed absolute control of the word or communication, who, how, when and where others can speak.
He has imposed absolute control of the life at Isis, the activities, the work, the pleasure.
And with the sequence he is trying to absolutely control the thoughts that students are allowed to think about. The way they use their mind and what for.
It is not just brainwashing, it is surgery with scalpel, “lobotomy,” and it is tremendously effective. But this deserves a whole different exploration of its own.
As long as we cannot fully understand the extent to which theory and practice need to be in close harmony with each other to be legitimate, we will continue to fall in the hands of all kinds of deceivers.
So let’s look at a regular student’s work in the fellowship, or what is expected of him with the teacher’s impositions.
First line. Intimate relations.
No personal relationship is above the relationship to the teacher. Give up your husband or wife if he/she interferes with your relationship with the teacher (the school). Your connection to the teacher is above everything else. The teacher that will never address or work with you closely, that cannot establish direct contact with you ever, that is willing to take only money from you because you are not awake enough to merit his time and that will use any and all your talent for his own benefit and discard you as soon as you have nothing more to give, wether it is because you’ve gotten sick or old.
This interaction between you and the teacher will be justified by Girard and the accepted dogma of the Fellowship with the idea that, Robert is a man number seven and you, barely a man number four.
If you do not value your awakening more than your husband or wife, you are under feminine dominance.
You cannot pretend a teacher to have time to speak to you when he has to keep the direction of the school for two thousand students.
Whatever you wish to share with Robert are just ‘Is’, don’t identify with them, be present, do your work.
These are just a few of the a hundred similar indoctrinations that Girard uses to justify this relationship, make it look reasonable and perpetuate it.
Girard’s first line is totally committed to this pattern:
Unconditional “love” for his teacher.
He is married to the School.
He has given up his will to serve Robert, the school.
The more intimate aspect reveals that Girard is a male with pornographic tendencies.
In porno, the woman becomes an object of pleasure. A “utility.” It is not someone worth bothering to speak to, there is no time for conversation because who wants to hear a women’s ‘Is’? Like listening to the ‘Is’ of a coffee maker…..but it is nice that it makes the coffee.
Here it is very interesting to observe that both Robert and Girard are unable to establish anything but a utilitarian relationship with their partner. Robert with his multiple young boys, Girard with four wives that he is willing to discard as soon as they confront his practical life with his so called consciousness and with a fair practice of porno which was the ONLY pleasure Girard kept for himself. Everything else, money, time, leisure, joy, love, fun, he gave up completely. There is no room for joy, no time for love, in Girard’s personal life or first line. He is the most damaged human being I have ever met, next to Robert.
So Radiccio, to answer your question, what I have to say is that Girard to me, sincerely attempted to balance his life and made a great effort to love me as he had never done with any other of his wives but although our very intimate relationship was one of deep struggle with our individual conflicts to make a marriage work, he was too conditioned by his patterns to give me more than an “utilitarian” role. I was, as I said, unconditionally loved as long as I was willing to unconditionally deny myself any joy or dignity, for there was no time for joy and no room for dignity, but was willing to serve the housewife; In the second line, I was expected to only support Robert and Girard, not stand up for myself or any of my understandings or experience with my own work and in the third line I was used as a decoration of stability so that my community would see Girard’s marriage as legitimate, just as Robert’s young Russian blonde is consistently presented in the background, a “decoration” for a very definite purpose. If these men are so sick that they are willing to use their most intimate relation to legitimize their school, what makes student’s think that Robert and Girard are not willing to submit them to an equally denigrating use, in which all that is wanted from them is money and effort to legitimize their role and school without leaving any room for their own integrity.
To Anonymous: My experience is that shame is the hallmark of inner considering. One day I might expand on that but your tone is not sufficient third force, I wish to convince you of nothing. Keep reading your books, I do not need to prove myself but I wish to share what I’ve understood in the hope others will suffer less and for shorter periods of time.
May you be deeply loved.
Elena
May 17, 2007 at 8:34 pm
For many years I had almost daily interactions with RB, and was mightily impressed with his ability to look at situations in creative ways. Over time, I became increasingly troubled by what I saw, and by several young men asking what they should do about his unwanted advances. Ironically, as my commitment diminished, I was to spend more and more time around him, which proved problematical for continuing as a member. I could not avoid the conclusion that he spent most of his days simply ‘screwing around’ (Charles R. used to refer to it as ‘a permanent vacation’).
Finally, after 20 years, I left just as I had joined – because I had no choice. Neither decision was intellectual – I simply could not stay any longer.
What’s life like post-FoF? Much like before… full, with daily joys and struggles and rewards and uncertainties. Unlike for many on this blog, the Fourth Way remains the most powerful tool for living that I have yet to encounter. And while I believe that my “decision” to leave the FoF was the right one, I don’t regret my years there at all; my life was enriched and I became a man. My best friends to this day are former members.
Originally I did not intend to go to the big shindig on the 26th, but Mary and I will be there – how could we not! And thanks again for this forum, Sheik… will we meet you there?
James B.
May 17, 2007 at 8:43 pm
#110 Rabbi
Don’t believe everything you think. Or read. Rodney Collin writes glowingly about Ouspensky and the last years. Many of us bought into that storyline because we wanted to believe everything good about O. Marie Seton paints a different picture than RC, but does that make her right and him wrong? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle. Or maybe in another direction altogether. I have tried over the years to acquaint myself with the good, bad and ugly that has been written or said about Ouspensky, Gurdjieff and others in that tradition, and what I have gained from all this is that G and O were entirely human with the same blemishes and warts that we all have. Neither one of them claimed to be anything above the ordinary and Gurdjieff included himself when he said “we are all equally beggars”.
#113 Joel
I have met and worked with a number of Foundation folks over the years and of the bulleted points that you write I would take issue with all except the second from the last, (the only real inheritors of Gurdjieff’s teaching operate within the Gurdjieff Foundation). That seems to be fairly constant throughout the various groups and over time. My information has been different from yours, not more right or wrong, just different. One of the good things about the Foundation is that there seems to be, at least in the chapters I have been acquainted with, freedom to express differing viewpoints than those held by any local hierarchy. Don’t get me wrong I am not a Foundation apologist I just don’t think they are quite as narrow as you have presented them. (Maybe they are, what do I know?)
#115 unoanimo
Although I have a hard time following your thought process and style of writing at times (it makes my brain hurt), the story of your great grandmother is as beautiful a piece of prose as I have read for a long time. It brought me to tears. Thank you.
Also, I have been trying to come to an understanding of your use of the pain body theory. Are you using Tolle’s version or did you find it somewhere else? In either case could you perhaps explain it in layman’s terms or in 4th way terms if you can?
Steve Anderson
theplace@rockisland.com
May 17, 2007 at 10:48 pm
More Rumor and Lies (217): You are a funny one, aren’t you?
Disinformation (220): Yeah, no surprise. The controversies section isn’t bad though, don’t you think?
James B. (223): I doubt that I’ll make it. I have very little time due to my work and quite a few plans already, it’s gonna be hard to juggle it all. Neither can I really afford a ticket at the moment. America is far far away.
Anonymous: You are irritating. I really do have nothing else to say to you. (BTW your reaction to WhaleRider’s comment on projection shows that you neither understand what WhaleRider wrote, neither do you understand the two definitions that you posted yourself.)
May 17, 2007 at 11:08 pm
FOF’s daily card for Thursday, May 17, 2007:
“To make a machine conscious and immortal is the ultimate task, and to achieve this everything is asked from us.”
Comment:
Were it possible to make meat and electrons conscious it might really be the ultimate task given the tools and knowledge shared in the FOF.
In fact, however, it is not possible to make a machine conscious and immortal. Therefore it is the most absurd task or thought and would appeal only to the most blind.
What is immortal does not become immortal for it was never born.
As for what is asked from us, the FOF teacher is very good at asking everything and getting everything from the blind.
May 17, 2007 at 11:29 pm
205
“1. If I would join or is there a legitimate reason to leave? I know everybody can leave if they like, but is there a way to leave and be still respected from members?”
No, they consider you dead and cut off all contact. IMExperience you treated like a crazy person who is potentially dangerous.
“Do you believe the FOF is the only organisation on the planet where people can learn something about awakening?”
Yes this is the mantra. The only concious school.
“Or is the only way not to be confronted with condemning staying and paying till I die?”
Yes, you are expected to give as much as you can, even to the point of going bankrupt. Everything you get $$ must have a percentage go the Fellowship. I had to give 10% of an inheritance I got.
“2. I read the reason for the existence of the FOF is to build an ark, help humanity and that it is a school of love. So please explain, how does the FOF help humanity now?”
By letting all the sleeping life people die and become “elements” locked in the hell of the moon’s crust, while the FoFers support the evolution of the immortal concious gods in the celestial city of paradise by pushing them up higher on the their evolutionary ladder while humbly receiving their external consideration as they help you to become a god. Basically, you are a either an immortal god or an imortal element.
“How is the love of the FOF expressed towards humanity?”
By letting humanity die and suffer its unconcious fate.
“How is it expressed towards all the Exmembers, the prodigal sons and daughters of the FOF?”
By cutting them off completely and treating them as if they were dead. The “love” is only on the surface and lasts only as long as you stick with the cult programming.
…………………………
218
“I don’t think they are brainwashed idiots. I don’t think they are cold and heartless. This is simply what happens to normal people when their conscience gets comfortably numb. I WAS JUST LIKE THAT MYSELF…So all I can do is to sincerely wish our stuck friends an emergence of conscience and, sooner – better!…. but most of our friends in FOF could still use a hand.”
Well said. I never met anyone in FOF who was stupid, or an idiot. Many FOF students were very beautiful, caring and nice people as long as you did not contradict the program. The sad truth is brainwashing is really easy, and anyone can get trapped in a cult.
—-
219
Traveler Says:
May 17th, 2007 at 7:10 pm
Read this carefully and think about how many times you’ve made adjustments in your mind as to what Robert must have actually meant:
Daily Card – May 17, 2007
To make a machine conscious and immortal is the ultimate task, and to achieve this everything is asked from us.
Love, Robert
—-
Yes, this daily card shows how students in FOF wash their own brains as Girad often said. It sounds really noble to strive humbly in the task of becoming concious and immortal. Just remember to never contradict or question the teaching and make your teaching payments on time and immortality will be yours after a few more lifetimes (unless you lose the school and go back to the end of the line humanity is waiting on to become concious).
May 18, 2007 at 12:05 am
215 Rabbi:
>The belief that Robert is conscious is drilled into us from the very beginning of our time in the FOF. After a few years it becomes unquestionable, even though there is no real evidence that it is true.
A few points, Rabbi:
1. From day 1, the Teacher’s being conscious is presented as a theory to be verified. If you just accepted it, you were a fool. If you’re not sceptical by nature, your staying here is useless, as Mr. G said. And so it proved to be.
2. There was no ‘drilling’ by a mysterious or malign ‘them’. You were ‘them’.
3. It was only AFTER 25+ years that I came to understand that he is conscious. Those who ‘accept’ or believe in his being conscious without checking it out thoroughly (20 years is nothing in this business) are bound to come a cropper.
4. Understanding that he is conscious is a moment-to-moment experience — not something you do once and can then coast on.
May 18, 2007 at 12:07 am
I’ve done search on the net yesterday on a famous celebrity psychotherapist in London, Harley street. He had treated me about 3 years ago when I had a breakdown. I was quite a bit suspicious about the way he treated me, so I googled him and found out about what happened to him (these are quotes from Daily Mail and other papers, last Sept.):
“A celebrity therapist who seduced female clients who went to him seeking help has been struck off from his professional body, it emerged yesterday.”
“With his illustrious reputation she trusted him implicitly and, if truth be told, felt a little in awe of the man who’d so famously helped an array of celebrities, such as Elton John, Michael Jackson, Robbie Williams, Paul Gascoigne, comedienne Caroline Aherne and model Kate Moss. The warm hug at the beginning and end of each hour-long session felt comforting, and when he offered to massage her shoulders when she complained of a back problem, she agreed.”
“…I should have ended it there and then, but, bizarrely, his wanting to have sex with me made me feel special. I was so in need of affection at that time, I think I would have taken anything. Also, part of me — I’m ashamed to say — felt a little excited that ……, therapist to the stars, wanted sex with me.”
“Now, in the cold light of day, I wonder what on earth I was doing, but all I can say is that he was very seductive and I was very vulnerable; I knew it shouldn’t have been happening, but I didn’t feel strong enough to get out of it.”
All I can say, that he indeed was very understanding, warm and un-judgmental. He told me about his past, how hard it was for him to be an alcoholic in the past, the price he paid for it in loosing his family etc. He also started with the massage, in my case with my feet massage which just kept creeping higher and higher. I was lucky to have left the country before it went too high. He told me to wear ‘sexy’ dresses when I have appointment with him in order to ‘boost my self-esteem’. He said that he had a ‘magical touch’ but some women found it too erotic and complained later…
Would you say it was my responsibility for that ‘therapist’ not to abuse me sexually or his? And what’s the difference between a vulnerable woman having a breakdown and a young man going through a spiritual search, both of whom are subjects to predation from someone who claims that they can help?
If there was a board of spiritual teachers, RB would certainly would have been be struck off from his ‘professional body’.
Disappointingly, I’ve also found out that the ‘celebrity therapist’ is still practicing. He doesn’t need to be a part of a ‘professional body’ to do so. I wonder if his present celebrity clients know of the fact that he has used his position to have sex with his female clients? Or whether they care about it at all? It seems that in the school not many care about what RB does as long as they feel comforted.
May 18, 2007 at 12:16 am
Keith (steve anderson): I read your posts with a bias. I noticed you protect the Real 4th way.
James B. post #223 and us have the same love for
words that came from Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Collin and Nicoll. To quote post 223, “the fourth way remains the most powerful tool for living that I have yet to encounter”.
Robin Williams the comic/actor described sex energy for most men in a funny way. “It takes 9 months for us to come out and we spend the rest of our lives trying to get back in”
Robert likes boys and Girard likes film?
May 18, 2007 at 12:54 am
A huge part of my self-deception concerning the FOF was my projections onto students of common sense. When I was first presented with the list of “the 44” and RB’s predictions, I was devastated. I was perhaps 1 month in the school at the time and really thought I had found something extraordinary, a true path for awakening. When I heard these things, I felt it was the end right there – these people were obviously nuts. Yet an older student asked me about my reactions to this knowledge and when I told him (softening the sentiments greatly out of embarrassment), he said “Don’t think you are the first one to have such I’s”, with a mischievous half smile. I was immensely relieved. He seemed to feel these “theories” were absurd, arrogant, and embarrassing also, yet he was an older student. At that point, a central core of my relationship to the school and its more bizarre aspects was set. Oh! I get it. It is intentional insincerity. It is exactly like Gurdjieff’s wild stories that simultaneously taught by analogy and served the purpose of driving off the silly and gullible. So I went my way assured that, while there might occasionally be some complete idiot who really took these fables literally, the shocks inherent in the form of the school would weed them out so that the “serious” students could continue work on ourselves. And every time I heard something bizarre that RB did or said and perceived that some students took it on face value, I chuckled arrogantly to myself at the students’ stupidity and quietly thanked Robert in my heart for “voluntarily suffering” in playing the fool for the good of the school.
So I continued year after year defending the illusion that the people I liked felt they way I did. These were intelligent, discerning, emotionally mature people with humour and creativity. Of course they did not actually believe all these unverifiable fables! Every time I was clearly shown my delusion, I made some excuse – they are just saying that because it is the form of the school and they are trying to fit in – they are experimenting with intentional insincerity themselves, emulating their teacher- I must have misunderstood them, they can’t really believe that…etc.
I spent almost all of my time in the school outside of Oregon House. I doubt I could have maintained my delusions for so many years if my face were shoved in the middle of the manure pile year after year. Who knows. Nicely detached and distant from the whirlpools of insanity emanating from the Blake cottage/Academy/Galleria, it was much easier to ignore the depressing truth: most of these people really did buy into the whole steaming pile. The “buzz” around Robert was primarily not higher hydrogens, just the flies that such piles draw. It is a symbiotic relationship; the pile and the flies draw each other.
And yet again it was not so simple to maintain, even in distant centres. Many of the students I knew well totally expected the crash of 84, were stockpiling goods etc. A well-off couple in their late 40’s even lost quite a bit of money investing in a scheme which depended on a crash to make a profit. Then after many years of easy delusion came 1998 and again I was shown how literally people took things, how many were simply salivating for an ultimate external validation of their teacher’s divinity. Again, many people put their money where their lack of minds were, betting that the gods would make them stinking rich by murdering 30 million Californians (and much of the Pacific rim through tsunamis) on cue.
It always seemed a delicate balance; how to discourage students, particularly young students who had more of a chance, from being so pathetically credulous without crushing their beautiful hope and aspirations toward consciousness. It was made more delicate because, at some level, I knew that if I pushed too far in such efforts, my own imaginary world would start unravelling. My secret (even to “myself”) need to feel superior, not just to most of “life”, but to many of the students, would not permit it.
Only after more than two decades did I become dimly aware of the arrogance and denial that ran like a lead thread through my entire school “career”. After that, about two years of consistent work trying to dismantle the feelings of superiority served not only that end, but also dismantled much of what had seemed magical and beautiful about the school.
For some students, the excrement from Robert may have been literal and the smearing without consent. For me it was figurative, but smeared I was, and with consent. As the moral to the fable goes “if you are warm and happy in a pile of shit, keep your mouth shut”. I doubt that anyone is really happy once they realize where they are. Many sense that something really stinks, but they can’t seem to figure out what it is.
May 18, 2007 at 1:02 am
Re: The Sheik coming to California
Does anybody have Frequent Flyer miles to burn?
May 18, 2007 at 1:05 am
Elena,
Regarding yours:
“And with the sequence he is trying to absolutely control the thoughts that students are allowed to think about. The way they use their mind and what for.”
The Sequence is a deeply rooted esoteric method to eliminate imagination and reach presence. It has been a major part of many traditions for thousands of years.
Robert Burton did not invent the Sequence and YES it IS meant to reduce “thoughts” and increase wordless presence. This is the whole aim of the school.
Those who are seriously clinging to the task of reaching presence are not interested in what you call “dialogue”, “spontaneity” and “freedom of expression”.
Ocasionally I have great dialogues with my friends, yet what I cherish most is the worldless moments of presence with them.
Maybe reaching worldless presence has never been your aim or at least not your major aim; however it has always been Robert’s central teaching. The rest is not important and you can write here as much as you wish about how dangerous the FoF is, it won’t matter to those who cling to that aim, including myself.
Part of what you are doing in this forum is trying to impose your set of values on some who do not share these values with you. Yours: “…even though I believe the Fellowship is a dangerous cult and students need to change it drastically or leave it.”
You are taking advantage of what might be seen as weak spots related to Robert’s sexual life to preach against the esoteric aims related to controlling thoughts and reaching presence.
Regarding Robert’s sexual life. I can say from personal knowledge that there is a great deal of disinformation and exaggeration of the graphic details published here and elsewhere along with many blunt lies regarding so called abusive conduct.
Still, it is an unusual behaviour that I do not fully grasp. From my limited experience with third states I do realize the possibility of such path. Yes, I say it loud & clear, there is a right scale that comprises such conduct in a conscious school.
You are holding humanistic values, which I see as very positive, yet I believe these values have limited scale in comparison to divine values related to higher consciousness. These two sets of values do not necessarily contradict each other, yet they do have major differences in scale. For example: External Consideration according to your scale of values might be close to 100%. In a conscious school it has a different scale. That does not mean exclusion of External Consideration, but it does mean putting consciousness as a higher right.
Many traditions have been trying to hide the real meaning of their teaching so that their work can continue.
I have learnt in almost 30 years that there is no point in trying bridging the gap between such standpoints, yet maybe it is a little bit more helpful to clarify them.
May 18, 2007 at 1:09 am
205: trademarker
>Maybe there is another world out there, but you have to allow yourself to see it.
I see the world in living 4-dimensional technicolour — when present. The 4th Way is freedom from mind/emotional control and conditioning. Of course, the 4th Way looks insane if you are down in Plato’s cave looking at shadows on the wall. It’s for the already-burnt only. Price of entry: formatory and conditioned mind/heart.
>I like to ask you about two things in regard to your invitation to join the FOF and check it out.
The suggestion that you join followed on your comment that the 4th Way takes place in life but FoF is not in life. If you join FoF, you will see that it takes place in life. That was the only reason to suggest you join. You would then be under one less illusion and could leave straight away.
>1. If I would join or is there a legitimate reason to leave?
Yes. You might not want to continue what you tried started. No problem from my point of view, though it often causes a lot of suffering to see people leave. It’s one of highest prices students pay. My heart still breaks for some who jumped off the ship in high seas.
>I know everybody can leave if they like, but is there a way to leave and be still respected from members?
I have no disrespect for former members. Some of them are close friends and are among the most beautiful souls I’ve met in life. Serial verbal abusers are a bit tedious, though.
>Do you believe the FOF is the only organisation on the planet where people can learn something about awakening?
No, of course not. Neither is this part of FoF teaching. The ways to Allah are as numerous as the sons of men (Mohammed).
>Or is the only way not to be confronted with condemning staying and paying till I die?
I don’t condemn anyone. The amazing thing is that those who leave almost invariably become serial condemners. They forget everything and start frothing at the mouth. From my point of view, it is necessary to be truthful and not obfuscate (great word, Poo-Poo) or distort.
Try to understand: When people leave, it breaks the hearts of those who continue. But the exercise to avoid contact with former members makes a lot of sense. There’s a mob out here baying for blood, spitting and snarling. Check this blog. What’s the point of hanging around this stuff? [I’m off after this post. There’s no welcome here or radiant eyes].
2. I read the reason for the existence of the FOF is to build an ark,
>This is a theory not a belief. We won’t be around to verify whether it is correct or not. Neither will anyone else now alive. Most recently, RB said FoF may be destined to be an esoteric society — which is step back from founding new civilisations, etc. He’s entitled to change his mind. It has never been important in my opinion, except in that it generates energy to be present. Everything revolves around that.
>please explain, how does the FOF help humanity now?
I don’t know. Who said it helps humanity now?
>How is the love of the FOF expressed towards humanity?
There are no soup kitchens, if that is what you are getting at. But if a man does not develop compassion towards his fellow beings, he is wasting his time. The more awake one is, the more compassionate one is — to all human beings. Anyone in FoF for any length of time knows what extraordinary friendships and love there is. But there is nothing exclusive about it. Consciousness, compassion, understanding, are facets of the same thing.
>How is it expressed towards all the Exmembers, the prodigal sons and daughters of the FOF? How do you experience that love?
As I read many of the posters to this blog, they don’t want to be loved. They abuse and froth and sneer and engage in self-withering contempt and want to destroy. And those who shared with them love and warm welcomes in every major city in the world, and shining eyes and beauty and Rilke and Rembrandt and Bach and Rumi and exquisite flowers and concerts and glittering candlelight and myriad higher moments and helped them as best they could to wake up are now spat upon.
A final thought from FoF:
We judge others because we are disappointed in ourselves.
May 18, 2007 at 1:22 am
#215
The problem may not simply be that people imagine Robert to be “conscious” while he not, but that we assume there is something called being “conscious” as a permanent state. No, I’m not talking about pseudo-nondualism, but has anyone here verified that anyone exists in a perpetual, effortless state of consciousness, radically different from virtually everyone else? Oh, I’ve met my share of wise, kind, even-tempered people who are recognized as spiritual masters, but I’m not talking about that; none of them have claimed to be permanently “conscious,” or even aspired to be. I don’t recall Gurdjieff making an issue of it. Sure, I’ve read about Ramana, and Meher Baba, and others that seemingly fit this description, and the doctrines speak of various endpoints of meditation, etc., but I suspect we’ve interpreted this through our minds into an infantile fantasy, akin to hoping we can someday return to the womb or the breast, and never have to experience any pain ever again. Never have to admit a mistake ever again.
In any case, if such a condition exists, I can’t imagine how anyone could imagine that Robert Burton exemplifies it, even setting aside all of the sexual stuff. He used to say, long after he claimed to have “crystalized,” that he stopped trying to remember himself when he went to bed. Nothing wrong with that, but how does trying to sustain the “third state”, and then setting it aside so he could go into “first state,” jibe with being perpetually “conscious”? What would it mean to be “conscious,” anyway? Does it mean one is never negative? If not, why not? Does it mean one hears the voice of “Influence C,” which sometimes provides good information, and sometimes doesn’t? Just how useful is that? Some people seem to imagine RB is never negative, but only people who have had very selective experience with him, or just see him shuffling along or nodding humbly, could think so. Deny him something he wants–if you dare–and see how he deals with it. It ain’t pretty, believe me. What makes him seem “conscious” other than his having said so? Take away his say-so and we see someone who acts just like any teenager with a trust fund would act if he found himself surrounded by sycophants.
Re the revisionist history of RB’s predictions: How sad to be unwilling to own up to a mistake, even after he had done so within the FoF. When Yankees catcher Thurman Munson was killed in a plane crash, RB intuited that this meant “New York would be a catcher’s mitt for a thermonuclear warhead.” But he was only speaking about the internal New York, and an internal catcher’s mitt. It’s certainly possible.
May 18, 2007 at 1:38 am
So Sheik, I am not trying to be funny, unlike some pranksters on this blog, but to prove it let me give some more bits of REAL TRUTHFUL GOSSIP! this just came in via email directly from the internet…hot from the battlezone…
EVERYONE__PLEASE REMEMBER TO MAKE YOUR DONATION TO THE SHEIK–PAYMENT IS A PRINCIPLE!!!!
Tidbit #1–Elena is apparently chronically addicted to this blog–she spends more than 10 hours a day (but hey, she is one of these folks who needs two hours to watch “60 minutes”)–probably some good porno would be much better for her, but it seems she gets off just marvelously making this stuff up about her old hubby, Mr. G! Elena, a big thank you, we are so glad for GH that he got rid of this sick, sick puppy-love! Also Dorothy thanks you for abandoning her–quite irresponsible dont’you think? a poor old lady with Alzheimers…you just bolted from the responsibility
Tidbit #2–Kiran is NOT surrounded by people on his slideshows pictures who are his friends, they are all employees–(that is why they smile so much!–they neeed the $$$$!!!!–go figure) and another thing about how he pays them [REMOVED A PORTION–FURTHER RUMORS NEED TO BE CHECKED ABOUT CERTAIN ACTIVITIES…] THanks RSVP for straightening this out for all of us! The Guru is unmasked–did not take much.
Tidbit #3–The Kiran infamous story about Rowena T. is all made up too–we checked directly with her–he tried to come on to her, not the other way around (this is what lead to his first task, no sooner was C buried, and he tried to get all teh girls to sleep with him), and is lying (or living the contradiction as he calls it) about her and also other friends–what a slimy sleazeball! It is also not true that Danielle V. was his best friend, he is just making this up also. Hard to believe but true. Trust me!
Tidbit #4–WhaleRider is quite different from Kiran and K is not on W ladder–why? Whalerider tells the truth (OK he kept this inside for 20 years–so that is a different problem–must feel good after all this time) but K is making stuff up as he goes along! True again!
Tidbit #5–The 9-year old child molestation story is wrong wrong wrong–totally wrong! There was no involvement by RB into the jail case at all–the judges are so afraid of the FOF that they immediately drop the case. The good story was actually written by No Person, it appears–no person tell me if we are wrong. Not sure if this is true? so don’t take my word for it.
Tidbit #6–Unanimo is not just a writer–he is a poet, ladies and gentleman! Love it! Good job–best posts on the blog by far so far!
Tidbit #7–Anonymous–can’t you pick a better name? you seem to have a chip on your shoulder!
Tidbit #8–Both Charles Randall and Joel Friedlander and Sandra “Sandy” whatever, all wrote nice thank you letters when they left to Robert he told us through one of his spokespeople. We asked RB for his opinion on this blog but were told he was “busy”–go figure…
Tidbit #9–James B–nice to see you here–if anyone of the “old farts guard” had any class it is you! I would like to shake your hand at the party! Too bad I cannot make it…
Tidbit #10–This Patterson guy is so full of himself, it is not even funny anymore–he is a lot worse and even more pathetic of an excuse than Wheeler, Kiran, or any of these BS GURUS out here on the blog.
Tidbit #11–hey, more to come tomorrow!
one more thing–Sheik, how come this blog is not paying off that you cannot simply buy a ticket–surely Kiran has sent you the “Payment is a Principle” donations! What, he has not? I have sent you my donation. See, your paypal account–my payment was marked “thankyou”—–hope you post this true report hot from the frontlines…
May 18, 2007 at 2:17 am
http://fofway.narod.ru/page5.htm
http://fofway.narod.ru/page8.htm
http://www.narod.ru/guestbook/?owner=3210512
May 18, 2007 at 2:27 am
Unoanimo;
Once or twice your post stopped my ‘responses’ in their tracks.
Between the pros & cons there is a field…
(do you accept students? I’ll give 15% until I ‘verify’)
But than I remember also – and you go to poetic pains to make this point- that between action and inaction there is a field…
And this is western zen at its best, now that we are past the initial shock and mindless reverence after being ‘shaken awake a little by the east’, it’s time to roll the sleeves and get to work.
The west has learned to tie up baloons to the toes & worry about identity while on the run, marching into conquered cities & continuing to split atoms & invent light bulbs.
The formerly baloon toe tying indian gurus learned to get Rolls Royces & make billion $ companies.
Impermanence, uncertainty, ambiguity & changing scale in the midst of a sentence comes to meet western action with a vengeance.
And still, between action & inaction there is a field…
And this blogpoetry your committing is alot of doing too.
Question: You don’t step into cliches, blissfully drift in the calm waters on your thoughtpoem raft; why the ‘pain body’ ideating anchor?
May 18, 2007 at 2:37 am
228: Keith Says: “Don’t believe everything you think. Or read. Rodney Collin writes glowingly about Ouspensky and the last years. Many of us bought into that storyline because we wanted to believe everything good about O. Marie Seton paints a different picture than RC, but does that make her right and him wrong? The truth is probably somewhere in the middle.”
Agreed. It may even be that they’re both right. Perhaps O. really was completely disillusioned with the 4th Way when he met Ms. Seton. Then he publicly cast it aside and at that point achieved some kind of awakening. The fewer concepts we’re burdened with the better, probably.
RB
May 18, 2007 at 2:47 am
Maybe it’s true that FOFers, being more open to “essence, which is sensitive to celestial influences” (Anonymous), are more affected by the moon than normal people. That would help to explain the increase in mad blog entries from pro-FOF writers in the last couple of days.
May 18, 2007 at 3:10 am
For those who may be new to this blog, here are my notes, which may save much reviewing of previous posts:
The Fellowship of Friends is an organization dedicated to the creation of consciousness and implementing the will of disembodied spirits existing at a higher level.
Many former Fellowship of Friends members are upset that they belated discovered that the organizattion’s leader, Robert Burton, has for at least the past thirty-seven years had sex of one form or another with a large number of heterosexual men, at least many of whom would not have had sex with him had he not assured them that their spiritual development, or ability to remain in the United States, or financial wellbeing, depended on it. Others are upset because they were personally involved in such sexual experiences. Some are upset that this practice continues, without recognition by the Fellowship that there is anything wrong with it, or that the sex was not entirely consensual.
Some former members are upset that they belatedly discovered that Mr. Burton frequently provided misinformation to the members while asserting it was truth that he was uniquely positioned to understand, and that it appears that this was done intentionally for selfish purposes. Some observe that Fellowship students are told that they will lose all hope of redemption if they leave, are shunned if they leave, and that the financial cost of not leaving has grown increasingly steep, to the point that many members lead marginal existences to support the institution. Others point out that the Fellowship doctrine has grown increasingly bizarre in recent years, relying on idiosyncratic assertions by Mr. Burton about, for example, the significance of ancient works of art. Some question whether the Fellowship teachings are effective in promoting awakening, noting that members appear to spend decades practicing according to Mr. Burton’s instructions without much change in their daily experience. Some discuss the ways in which they currently seek fulfillment in view of lessons they have learned.
Members of the Fellowship respond that criticism of the Fellowship, its doctrines, or Mr. Burton is itself conclusive proof of a failure to understand the value and truth of that doctrine, leader, and institution, or that the critic is intentionally not telling the truth, or is misinformed. These individuals maintain that Mr. Burton is a “conscious being,” and therefore, by definition, is incapable of nontrivial error. Some reveal that they have verified this by careful and painstaking observation. Others explain that, while harm may perhaps occur as a result of experiences in the Fellowship, it is always the fault of the harmed individual. Some take the position that, if a person is present, anything else that may occur to any other individual, or to the person himself, is irrelevant. Members assert that while the Fellowship of Friends may superficially resemble many other groups and institutions making similar claims, it is fundamentally different, the difference being that other such groups only imagine they possess the qualities that the Fellowship possesses in fact.
May 18, 2007 at 3:19 am
Re: 9/234 Anonymous
Actually, RB’s original quote was
‘We are harsh with others because we are disappointed with ourselves.’
For what it is worth, I think that you have often been quite harsh in your posts here.
May 18, 2007 at 3:23 am
“…you project that feeling onto me in the service of your ego. If something bothers you that intensly ask youself, “what is it about this person that reminds me of something I don’t like in myself?”
Oh, I getcha! Its that trick mirror thang, ain’t it? The one that only reflects one way, right?? Let me see if I got it: YOU are a mirror for my feelings that are really inside of me, but, I, in no way, are reflecting back to you your own projection. It that right??? Golly, and to think of all the time I wasted at Smog Tech School when I cudda been a dang Sycholojust!
BTW, I saw Brian a few days before his passing. I can tell you the whole thing stinks. Very disturbing…as it is said: “The facts lie”.
May 18, 2007 at 3:35 am
To Ames and All,
Thanks Ames, for responding to my earlier post on this page. You asked “The first question is, do you need a relationship to Burton or the FOF to have these experiences? ”
It no doubt depends on the person, and the stage of our evolution we are in, so from one point of view, yes (otherwise we would not have attracted it) but also no, as we ultimately have to create our own soul.
I find that at least for now there is so much help in the school (in the form of the wisdom of the quotes, for example, our studies), uplifting and inspiring beauty, and on the other hand there are so many weaknesses in me that I allow in that were it not for being “rubbed” constantly, it would be too comforting to the false personality part in me. Thus, for me I need the school–the alarm clocks–and in the scale of the moment, the sequence.
I hope this makes sense, what I am trying to say is that by being in the school environment, we attract support as well as photographs and shocks that otherwise I would not be letting in my life, and by only being around, say our family and good friends of my own choosing, it would end up being too predictable, too sleepy for me. So the form provides that useful structure to make the work possible.
I very much like what you wrote about spending time working on things in your community–this is much of the same idea as 3rd line of work in the school, yet how many do it?
Ames, you also write: “The second question is, if you must stay in the FOF to have these golden moments (this is implied in your posts), is it worth any price?”
I think as someone earlier posted, everyone has a breaking point. When you wrote about the moments you experienced with Robert, I found that quite beautiful. I have a sense that these times still are very vivid in your memory and if you are objective, can you really say that your life would have been better without this play? Even if this brought you to a breaking point?
I have “investigated” some of the more egregious claims on the blog but cannot find them to be fully accurate and they seem to come more often than not from people with their own agenda or bias. this then makes it really hard to draw a meaningful conclusion.
I quite agee that the means does not always justify the end. However, I have not seen, as you claim you have, the serious infliction of abuse some write about. Yes, there is pressure but I know just too many (including yours truly) that have been able to still love our teacher without getting involved with him, or do it from a good place without regrets.
The ‘collateral damage’ is of course a factor for the FOF–for one thing, it is the reason so many constantly leave, which is why the FOF remains as small as it has, even though its message should have spread far wider after all this time–this in my mind is a real shame.
I do bear this responsibility as all current members do–but as I wrote before, I still try to make this a better place, as the beauty and inner wisdom is so far greater than the downsides.
At some point may have to answer more fully and personally. For all those that do here on this forum, I can feel this pain more than I would have thought possible, and you and quite a few others are to be respected for sharing. Thanks again for engaging in this exchange.
Very best to all,
Siddiq
May 18, 2007 at 3:37 am
Hey, Anony!
“Most recently, RB said FoF may be destined to be an esoteric society — which is step back from founding new civilisations, etc. He’s entitled to change his mind.”
But I was led to believe, saith RB, that every word out of his mouth is dictated by Influence-C. Guess they changed their minds!!
“If you join FoF, you will see that it takes place in life.”
Reread section on “Lying” in the Fourth Way by O.
“I have no disrespect for former members. Some of them are close friends and are among the most beautiful souls I’ve met in life”
Verrry interristing! So, do former students ever get the chance to become life people again at some point in time or are they always former students?
“But if a man does not develop compassion towards his fellow beings, he is wasting his time. The more awake one is, the more compassionate one is”
Of course you are not referring to the FOF because there is no compassion towards either life people nor former students.
Tell me, how do you manage to breath and do the Sequins with your head up your butt?
May 18, 2007 at 3:54 am
234: “We judge others because… [blah, blah, blah].”
This is a typical example of the thought control within the fof, although it’s hard to tell whether this person (in post 234) is the perpetrator or the victim — which probably has been true for many of us at one point or another. Any critical thinking toward Robert Burton or the group is immediately categorized as a negative emotion — in this case “judgment.” Questioning of authority within the group is quickly stifled by attempts to make someone feel guilty for expressing their own thoughts. Dysphemisms such as feminine dominance, mechanical goodness, judgment, and vanity discourage open discussion and therefore discourage the unveiling of uncomfortable truths.
By the way, in a recent fof tag-team contribution, one person is actually acknowledging RB’s sexual exploits. Wow. Maybe we have a paradigm shift?
Hmm. Soon it will be…
“One must watch one’s habitual manifestations and reactions as one discusses the unethical and destructive behavior of one’s Teacher.”
Well, maybe a step forward anyway.
May 18, 2007 at 4:52 am
“Solsbury Hill”
Peter Gabriel song from 1977
……………………….
Climbing up on Solsbury Hill
I could see the city light
Wind was blowing, time stood still
Eagle flew out of the night
He was something to observe
Came in close, I heard a voice
Standing stretching every nerve
I had to listen had no choice
I did not believe the information
Just had to trust imagination
My heart was going boom boom, boom
“Son,” he said, “grab your things, I’ve come to take you home.”
To keeping silence I resigned
My friends would think I was a nut
Turning water into wine
Open doors would soon be shut
So I went from day to day
Tho’ my life was in a rut
’till I thought of what I’d say
Which connection I should cut
I was feeling part of the scenery
I walked right out of the machinery
My heart was going boom boom boom
“Hey,” he said, “grab your things, I’ve come to take you home.”
Yeah back home
When illusion spin her net
I’m never where I want to be
And liberty she pirouette
When I think that I am free
Watched by empty silhouettes
Who close their eyes, but still can see
No one taught them etiquette
I will show another me
Today I don’t need a replacement
I’ll tell them what the smile on my face meant
My heart was going boom boom boom
“Hey,” I said, “you can keep my things, they’ve come to take me home.”
May 18, 2007 at 5:13 am
Elena says.
To Alex, 211
Your post shows how you’ve heard only 5% of what I have written and that is your choice, which I respect.
I have NEVER EVER complained to anyone that G. spent all day looking at hard-core stuff. If I have said that he is addicted to porno and someone interpreted it like that, it is not what I said.
In this process of disclosing what we each know, the names that one gets called or the deviations that come from what one says, are part of the game and this is my second round Alex. I am in a much better state than I was in the first round and the names you call me, barely offend me. Let me play all those roles and continue attempting a few more. I am beginning to feel good about my self.
My very personal life with Girard is really not the issue here but I have disclosed what I think needs to be disclosed so that students can deal with the man and not with the myth. It is the same with Robert, the man needs to be looked at and held by human standards and not justified by “superhuman” behavior. If there’s no harmony between the man and the conscious being, there is no conscious being, which does not mean that anyone can have a high state here and there, and still be a fairly common soul.
I will not take any of your advice and even have difficulty in thanking you for it, for you have not done me justice in reading carefully, but I will tell you that nothing, nothing is ever as simple as you want to put it and your formatoriness tells me more about you than about myself.
No matter how much Girard and I struggled with our own selves and each other to make the marriage work, we struggled with everything we had and loved each other in the fullest sense of the word. This separation is necessary because we don’t agree with what is happening in the Fellowship and don’t agree in many other ways, but do not make the mistake of thinking that we have not tasted love. It will heal us both enough to become great friends if not lovers.
May 18, 2007 at 5:18 am
#233 Hava Nagillah
“Many traditions have been trying to hide the real meaning of their teaching so that their work can continue.”
This is utter poppycock. I’m supposed to believe there’s some secret tradition, some essential knowledge held only by the initiated, that allows those in possession of this secret knowledge to do some great work, to awaken? And that if this knowledge were widely disseminated, freely available to all, that somehow the “work” could not continue?
Who told you this story? Why did you believe it?
Anyone who tries to hide the real meaning of their teaching is a charlatan interested only in maintaining power over others — an ancient and despicable game.
May 18, 2007 at 5:43 am
Reminded of the great depression that was going to start in 1984. It was predicted to start on my birthday, and I lived at Renaissance and was having a party that evening in my fixed-up shack – it was a lovely party, but afterwards I felt the knock of conscience. There was absolutely no mention of assisting anyone but ourselves. After that the fof just looked more and more debauched. This is not abuse, just observation. Sometimes observation is just not pretty with happy talk – its just clear.
After I left I intentionally did not use the work language but translated – like said by someone earlier (for example “man is a machine” translates to “people are meat”.) – I treated everyone I met as containing that which can awaken – or tried to at least. But as I visit this blog I am reminded of why I really did love the fof – and that is the very cool, interesting and often unusual people. The everyday people. There is something deeply human about community – maybe deeper than human.
Now, I love my current (non fof) communities, but I have to admit that there are things said here that are unusual for me – not to flatter, but when do most folks have the opportunity to face such weaknesses in themselves and come thru it? Of course some do, and if they share that with a community it is a great bond for them. This blew me away:
No person Says:
When I read some postings here, like Anonymous and such, defending and justifying FOF in a one-sentence manner, with condemnation and judgment to us, “losers” – I say to myself – “I too was just like that, just like that”.
Just reading this and knowing its truth in myself and then realizing that many here share that is quite a great experience. I am NOT saying this community is any way better than any other, but I relate to it more. It could be that the “greater” fof is the more realized one.
I grew up with Bach and Beethoven and Handel and Mozart, and poetry and much art and so on. It felt usual and comfortable in the fof, and creative-aesthetic experience still is profound. This is one aspect of un-fof (formerly called ‘life’) that is especially rewarding – the arts in the fof are sometimes nice, but let me say, it is much much much better in un-fof-land. And I don’t believe in the ‘hurry up so one can be immortal sooner’ stuff. I don’t believe in the angry god – oh that angry god exists, but do I want to worship that? There are other spiritual communities that are much more effective than fof too. I have a deep conviction that consciousness without conscience is damaged – not something to aspire to in the least, quite the contrary! But there was (and still is) something of the miraculous in the community – for me. Fortunately that did and does not just go away post fof.
To those humans who say things like:
“Those who are seriously clinging to the task of reaching presence are not interested in what you call “dialogue”, “spontaneity” and “freedom of expression”. ( I know, you were not talking in the first person)
“I don’t condemn anyone. The amazing thing is that those who leave almost invariably become serial condemners. They forget everything and start frothing at the mouth.
As I read many of the posters to this blog, they don’t want to be loved. They abuse and froth and sneer and engage in self-withering contempt and want to destroy. And those who shared with them love and warm welcomes in every major city in the world, and shining eyes and beauty and Rilke and Rembrandt and Bach and Rumi and exquisite flowers and concerts and glittering candlelight and myriad higher moments and helped them as best they could to wake up are now spat upon”
…then why ARE you reading this? And btw, I never frothed. Not in the 20 some years after I left the fof. I never saw any of my greater-fof friends froth either. But, eeeeewww, that would turn me off too! come on, anonymous, just stay a bit longer – we’ll entertain you.
One more thing:
“No I Says:
This blog is part of the play of RB. According to his astrological life chart, something has to end in 2007. Maybe the FoF will dissolve, maybe he’ll stop teaching. This blog is the mechanic for that. Just as RB’s play is a mechanic for somebody else’s. ”
Please could you explain this further? What are the alignments, energies, patterns??
thanks, Alice
May 18, 2007 at 5:49 am
Dear Anunymous, would you be so kind to explain HOW exactly you verified after 25+ years that RB is “conscious”? I am honestly curious. I had no idea this could be verified. Can your verification be verbalised somehow? Please share it if you can.
I really appreciate this, thank you.
May 18, 2007 at 6:24 am
Comments on 233/234 from Hava Cigarilla/Anonymous:
“The Sequence is a deeply rooted esoteric method to eliminate imagination and reach presence. It has been a major part of many traditions for thousands of years.”
That a living human being being, presumably with a functioning mind, can make a statement like this, asserting that a totally unverifiable and zany theory is a fact, speaks for itself.
“Those who are seriously clinging to the task of reaching presence are not interested in what you call “dialogue”, “spontaneity” and “freedom of expression”.”
Again, no comment required, except to point out the appropriate use of the word “clinging”.
“You are taking advantage of what might be seen as weak spots related to Robert’s sexual life to preach against the esoteric aims related to controlling thoughts and reaching presence.”
“Weak spots” might be putting it a bit mildly.
“Yes, I say it loud & clear, there is a right scale that comprises such conduct in a conscious school.”
Actually “right scale” suggests that someone who claims to be a “conscious teacher” would not sexually abuse his students.
“I see the world in living 4-dimensional technicolour — when present.”
This has been usefully discussed above by those who experimented with drugs. The 4-dimensional technicolour world is fun but not sustainable for long – hopefully a brief detour on the path.
“The 4th Way is freedom from mind/emotional control and conditioning.”
Here we see again the strange assumption that the FOF is a 4th Way school – obviously it’s not. The FOF would be better described as the epitome of “mind/emotional control and conditioning”.
“If you join FoF, you will see that it takes place in life.”
The FOF despises “life” and is deliberately as separate from it as possible.
“The amazing thing is that those who leave almost invariably become serial condemners. There’s a mob out here baying for blood, spitting and snarling.”
This is quite mad. I personally know many of the people who have recently left the FOF in Oregon House. There is a growing community of ex-FOFers who mingle freely with the more open-minded current students. It’s a wonderfully positive group of people.
“Most recently, RB said FoF may be destined to be an esoteric society — which is step back from founding new civilisations, etc. He’s entitled to change his mind.”
Do you think this could conceivably be interpreted to mean that Robert is conceding that he was wrong about the predictions?
“As I read many of the posters to this blog, they don’t want to be loved. They abuse and froth and sneer and engage in self-withering contempt and want to destroy. And those who shared with them love and warm welcomes in every major city in the world, and shining eyes and beauty and Rilke and Rembrandt and Bach and Rumi and exquisite flowers and concerts and glittering candlelight and myriad higher moments and helped them as best they could to wake up are now spat upon.”
Again, pure fantasy. Nobody is “spitting upon” you. What’s happening is your beliefs are being questioned. I know that that can be painful, but it’s mostly being done from a compassionate place (though I admit some postings are rather harsh). All it takes to see through Robert and the FOF, which I sincerely hope you will, is to look one millimetre beneath the surface of your tenaciously held illusions. We’re trying to help you with that, having been through the entire process ourselves.
RB
May 18, 2007 at 6:42 am
Dear Hava Nagillah, your post to Elena is very saddening. Do you realize, friend, how much blind belief is in what you state so firmly?
Sequence ” deeply rooted”? “A major part of many traditions for thousands of years??”
Because Robert just came up with this crap – it is all of a sudden deeply rooted and major part? Give me a break. Deeply rooted in horse manure, may be. (Thanks, Joe – your post made me laugh).
Robert didn’t invent the Sequence? Oh really… Well, then who did – the cavemen? Or blame it on Egyptians? No, dear, it’s RB’s own and recent creation, although it is truly modest of him to give the credit to others.
Are you an intelligent man, Hava Nagillah? Then – please think, analyze, open your eyes and ears, don’t brainwash yourself.
You say that “Those who are seriously clinging to the task of reaching presence are not interested in what you call “dialogue”, “spontaneity” and “freedom of expression”.
OK, it’s really sad, but are they interested in any kind of thinking at all? Or common sense, may be? Or the aim truly is to “reduce” thoughts to the point when there is none at all? Looks like you are almost getting there, buddy! Not much thinking left in your posts…
Listen, you don’t need any “serious clinging” or “thought elimination” to notice what is under your nose… May be it’s this serious clinging to the task that blinds you. Presence is no “serious task”, it’s just what you already are. And presence is not wordless, it doesn’t need to be. Who said it should be wordless?
It has no conditions, it includes everything that occurs.
What a sad goal – to reach “wordless” presence! Only RB could suggest something like that – an insecure control freak. Yes, smile-less, laugh-less, lifeless, wordless, joyless, thoughtless, breathless… And permanent. Sounds like death to me. Why would you want that? 😦
What’s wrong with just life, as it is, full and beautifully designed for you to enjoy?
May 18, 2007 at 6:42 am
Anonymous #208
Just to be clear and literal, as I know you like to be…you’re the whale, I’m the Whale Rider. Remember that.
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia:
Projection: Attributing to others, one’s own unacceptable or unwanted thoughts and/or emotions. (Gee, maybe we are we a cult? What if I was wrong all these years? Ykes, that would suck! No, it can’t beeeeee.) Projection reduces anxiety in the way that it allows the expression of the impulse or desire without letting the ego recognize it.
The maladaptive use of defense mechanisms can occur in a variety of cases, such as when they become automatic and prevent individuals from realizing their true feelings and thoughts. (#185 re: #168 “Excellent description of sleeping life as we see it all around us on the Earth.” It’s not us, it’s them!) What planet are you from?
But hey, I’m happy you are expanding your reading habits from the work books to the dictionary. That’s a good sign, I guess…
#234 “I see the world in living 4-dimensional technicolour — when present.” You are lying to yourself and to trademarker! As a frequent flyer in the fourth dimension of time myself, I know this as a fact: you cannot see the fourth dimension with your eyes open. Figure that one out grasshopper…
#234 A final thought from life:
Others are judged because they break the law.
Hava Nagillah #233: FYI, when in this wordless state you speak so highly of with your critical mind disengaged-add some emotion and your lower centers can be imprinted with disinformation which leads to erroneous beliefs. This is how propaganda works, and RB. That is why “bridging the gap in viewpoints” is so difficult. What you are really taking about is bridging entrenched beliefs, such as attempting to convert someone from one religion to another. Pointless.
Whale Rider
1979-1985
May 18, 2007 at 6:45 am
The 4th Way and the Church of Burton promise immortality ‘on the scale of the existence of the solar system’, if you can pass certain barriers/tests. For example, the daily card quoted above (#219):
“May 17, 2007
To make a machine conscious and immortal is the ultimate task, and to achieve this everything is asked from us.”
Apart from the message seeming to encourage imagination of the useless kind and detract from the present, I have a response from my emotional center about the ‘immortal’ part (never mind ‘making a machine conscious’ and ‘everything is asked from us’, I’ll save those for another time).
The response is equivalent to the words:
—Fear of death equates to hatred of life.
Would readers like to share thoughts on the lure and the supposed advantages of ‘immortality’? I am also reminded of the associated feeling that became stronger and stronger through the years: that things, under the gleaming façade, actually seem to become colder, more unloving, more controlling, more fearful and less life–affirming, the closer one gets to the center of the Fellowship—the “Inner Circle” and Burton himself?
Yours curiously,
Ames
P.S. To Joe Average (#9-231), thanks! I myself so often thought, “If all these good, decent people are still here, still trying, then it must be some lack of effort or being in myself…” It was truly a powerful force for staying in.
May 18, 2007 at 6:58 am
The topic tonight is Consciousness!
What does it mean to be a conscious being? Let’s see what Gurdjieff and Ouspensky said about it, as they are conscious beings helping the Fellowship of Friends, according to Robert Burton.
I want to summarize the fourth way teaching on consciousness, and I hope I’ll get this right and we’ll all agree. Please help me if I’m wrong. According to the System and Robert Burton’s teaching, there are different levels of consciousness for man on Earth: men numbers 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, and 7 (and I believe RB later added man number 8). Men numbers 1, 2, 3 are pretty similar, but the successive levels differ from each other in development as much as human does from animal. Man # 4 has his center of gravity in work on oneself, which is supposed to describe most FoF students, man # 5 is the first level of conscious being, who has awakened higher emotional center and can remember himself whenever he wants to, but can still lose everything because nothing is permanent in him, man # 6 has awakened higher mental center and achieved everything possible for a human (Girard Haven had been pronounced by Robert Burton to be a man # 5 and after his stroke a man # 6, although I have heard him continue to include himself in “we men number four” when he spoke at meetings), man # 7 is one in whom these two higher centers have become crystallized and permanent and is thus immortal within the boundaries of the Solar system, that is, will not die for many eons. Man # 8 are Jesus Christ, Moses and Plato, according to RB, I don’t have an explanation for how this is different from man # 7 except that it is somehow even higher. And Robert Burton is supposed to have referred to himself on various occasions as man number seven-point-something (on his way to eight).
When he first started to teach in 1970, he called himself a budding man number five, which I take to mean man number four on his way to becoming number five. At some point he must have become man # 5. One second-hand story is that one day he was staring into the fireplace and got up with tears in his eyes and then later declared that this was the first time he had experienced his higher centers. If anyone knows more about his becoming a man number five, please share. Later on he is said to have received an omen from influence C in the form of an advertisement for the company ‘Union 76’ written on the side of a truck, which meant to him that his higher centers would fuse (union) and he would crystallize in 1976. Somehow he picked a date for his crystallization too, probably through another omen, and the whole Fellowship was preparing a festival and eagerly awaiting the crystallization of the Teacher. Big disappointment, Robert came and said it didn’t happen. But a few days later, he says, he was lying in bed at night and there was great pressure in his head, like something waiting to be born, and he felt like he was shot right through the eyes and he was still standing, his higher centers were just there looking out. So he became a man number six and the school celebrated. Then, it was 1989 or so, and Robert was once again sitting in a plane on the runway in San Francisco, and a large earthquake struck. As he later found out, the earthquake was of magnitude 7.2 or so on the Richter scale, which, he told his students, was a sign from the Gods that he had become man number 7.
I’m sorry if I got any stories wrong, please correct me if you know them more accurately. Also we never went into the details of the fourth way theory in the FoF, and yet this theory underlies everything about Robert Burton’s teaching on consciousness.
So here we are with a system presented to us, in which Robert is a man number 7, crystallized in his higher centers, and since the lower cannot see the higher, verifying that he is a conscious being will necessarily be ‘challenging’ according to the FoF website. The solution FoF offers on the same website is that if you feel you’ve become more conscious in the School, the question of his consciousness becomes somewhat irrelevant.
But still, it gnaws, the assumption contained in this solution is that, whatever happens to your level of being in the school, happens because of the influence of the Teacher. Therefore you are actually being asked to assume that – if I feel more awake than before, it must be indirect proof of the consciousness of the teacher. Could be some truth to that, but the evidence is circumstantial. Let’s suppose for a second that everyone has their own speed of growth and that exposed to a different set of circumstances, you might also similarly feel you have become more awake over time. I know a number of people who feel they have progressed spiritually over the years, without ever having been in the FoF.
Let’s say that I’m not satisfied with brushing the question of the Teacher’s consciousness aside, and I want to be sure that I’m benefiting more by putting myself under his influence and his guidance, and by paying him $500 per month, than by just being in ‘life’ and being educated by its ordinary slings and arrows. So I come across this:
#9/228 Anonymous Says:
From day 1, the Teacher’s being conscious is presented as a theory to be verified. If you just accepted it, you were a fool.
It was only AFTER 25+ years that I came to understand that he is conscious. Those who ‘accept’ or believe in his being conscious without checking it out thoroughly (20 years is nothing in this business) are bound to come a cropper.
Understanding that he is conscious is a moment-to-moment experience — not something you do once and can then coast on.
Excellent! Finally someone who says with conviction that he has understood the teacher is conscious. All other students have been such wimps and have always gotten out of it by saying, well, it’s a theory.
First, though, I’m somewhat disheartened by the statement that it will take 25 and more years of being a member to understand this essential thing, that Robert is conscious. And that even after 25 years, it will be something I will have to keep re-verifying, I won’t just know it for a fact. I assume it is so difficult to verify that Robert is conscious because the lower cannot see the higher. Since I know that I’m a man # 4 and Robert is a man # 7, what seems like silly ideas of reference to me is just the way his higher centers work, I can never know for sure about his higher level of consciousness, because I know that he is at a higher level of consciousness, which I can’t verify to begin with. Wait a minute… Eeer… This is beginning to cause mental anguish, I should better just drop these I’s. Anyway, Anonymous does seem to encourage me to continue to ‘check it out thoroughly’, even if it will take me 25 years, so I decide to go for it.
I do end up with a lot of questions. What aspects of Robert’s consciousness should I try to understand and verify for myself? Can I verify any of the following, and how:
– There are two kinds of people: conscious, immortal crystallized men, and unconscious men, who are destined to be ‘recycled’ when they die.
– The majority of humans on Earth are unconscious.
– I’m also unconscious, but there are few others who are conscious and who can help me become conscious too.
– There is a ladder of levels of consciousness on which I’m at step # 4 and there are 3-4 more steps above me.
– Few exceptional individuals currently on Earth are conscious, notably Robert Burton, and to a lesser degree Girard Haven and maybe Alex Horn.
– An unconscious being generally needs the direct help of a conscious being to become conscious himself.
– Robert is a man number 7.
– Robert’s interpretations of signs are objective.
– Robert’s interpretations of signs come from something called ‘higher centers’.
– Influence C, who are conscious beings once lived on Earth, now disembodied, speak to Robert to give him instructions.
– Immortality is within our grasp.
– The sequence is irrefutably objective truth. (Love, Robert)
– Fellowship of Friends is guided by a higher school of conscious beings on an astral plane.
It seems that verifying all this is what makes the School unique and of central importance in one’s life. You have to verify C Influence, an older student told me, or nothing makes sense. If you did not verify this, you might ‘lose the School’ as you would not value it enough. So how do we verify it?
I can’t help but associate to evangelists who approach you to ask you if you are saved, and if you have no idea what they’re talking about, they will kindly educate you that Jesus is your savior and if you believe in him you can become saved like them. Create a need, and then fill a need. Marketing experts understand it too.
I’ll venture to assume that when Anonymous says he understood personally that Robert was conscious, he is not talking about having a sudden revelation, heaven’s gate opening and trumpets announcing “yes, Robert is a man number 7”. So what, exactly, does it mean when he says he knows Robert is conscious? I’m asking Anonymous or anyone else who shares that opinion. You speak of a moment-to-moment experience – is it an emotional bond that is created between you and Robert in that moment, an understanding of him, a feeling of connectedness, a feeling of sharing the same space, same aims, both being part of something much greater, feeling that you are giving up your small will for something bigger, feeling that you can rely on him leading you down the right path…? What is the experience, if you don’t mind answering? And how does it lead you to summarize it in the words “Robert is conscious”? What does ‘conscious’ mean to you in this context? Do you feel you are ‘conscious’ in the moment you are verifying this?
As it is related, I would like to also address # 9/233, Hava Nagillah Says: “The Sequence is a deeply rooted esoteric method to eliminate imagination and reach presence. It has been a major part of many traditions for thousands of years. Robert Burton did not invent the Sequence and YES it IS meant to reduce “thoughts” and increase wordless presence. This is the whole aim of the school.”
Dear Hava Nagillah, I totally agree that the Sequence is designed to stop thought and I do believe you are having some success with it. If you don’t mind, I’d like to deconstruct how you know about the Sequence’s ancient origin. Then you can correct me if I got something wrong.
“The Sequence is a deeply rooted esoteric method… major part of many traditions for thousands of years…” I assume you don’t speak with C Influence directly, so your knowledge of the Sequence and its historic import comes from Robert and through him from C Influence, which is unquestionably the most authoritative source on the matter. At some point, Robert or one of his researchers found a quote in the Philokalia that presence is reached in a sequence of six steps. As we know that Influence C communicates with Robert through numbers, he got quite excited about this and started looking for other ancient sources containing the number six. Of course he found many, specifically in Egypt, and then extended this to all multiples of six to mean the sequence. Work I’s were assigned to each of the steps, and with the help of the group of researchers and personal experimentation they were changed several times before the last version came out. Robert then started teleologically looking for more evidence confirming the role of each of the work I’s in the sequence, and even when the images didn’t quite match, he explained that the ancient civilization had cleverly hidden the key by making a mistake. In other words, his interpretations were still right. Keying was further perfected by assigning sequence-related meanings to other numbers that were encountered, namely, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10, 12, 15, ~30. Robert declared that anything depicted in ancient Egypt had an esoteric meaning. Proofs of the sequence were found in ancient images around the world. This culminated in the discovery that the sequence was used even by prehistoric peoples, and though they did not have a written language, they attempted to communicate to us about the sequence by painting six hands or six animal droppings on cave walls. Soon we had enough knowledge to be able to have meetings with the topic of “Antlers”, which had six divisions.
Now obviously if Joe Blow from Dobbins started seeing a connection with number 42 just about everywhere and concluded that it was a divinely inspired message, an ancient code for objective truth, perhaps the answer to the question of life, the universe, and everything, it wouldn’t mean much because he’s not conscious, right. Only conscious beings see the world objectively through signs and symbols.
So, since all of your knowledge about the Sequence being thousands of years old and an ancient tool for awakening, comes from Robert’s interpretations of pictures and symbols, and from other students repeating what Robert says, and since you seem pretty sure that it’s very true, you must have also verified that Robert is conscious and that his interpretations are objective. In that case, could you please look at the questions for Anonymous above and see if you would like to answer any? Thanks.
—
I’m sorry for all the “mud-throwing” that some people feel is going on between “innies” and “outies”. I suppose that “outies” feel sorry for the “innies”, and the other way around. Each thinks that the other is deluded in some way. And then they accuse each other of condemning and judging. All based on fear. Nevertheless, I assume most “innies” are here because they’re not afraid to look at their beliefs a little deeper. So why not engage in a little soul-searching. But if you want to go away from the blog calling out “only presence is important”, and yet need to stay in the Fellowship and don’t care about its core values, fare well. It can be scary to give up a belief without a feeling that there will be something to substitute it.
May 18, 2007 at 7:50 am
To Hava Nagillah, (233) from Elena
I sincerely thank you for your willingness to share angles.
The issue in my posts is only thirty percent, if a figure were to be put on them, the sexual issue, the other 70% that needs to be looked at, is the Cult that the Fellowship has become.
Regarding Robert’s sexual life, I do not need to see what happens in the bedroom to know that something is and has been ever so sick for such a long time just from seeing how he treats and manipulates every situation and walks around with those men pretending that it is all just perfectly legitimate and I had been trying to transform it and assimilate it and buffer it because I was being unable to accept the fact that all the love and energy I had put into believing Robert was a conscious being, was a foul mistake on my part.
I’ll tell you one thing. Last time I dined with Robert he had a heterosexual man sitting next to him who could not be more uncomfortable in the situation. He looked as though he was having to go through the test of fire, as if Robert were exposing him in front of everyone as his latest trophy. He sweat every time Robert caressed his legs as if patting them. The humiliation of people that I have had to bear with in the Fellowship will go down in history as the worst moments of weakness that I have experienced for if I had been anywhere close to my self I would have screamed my guts out at Robert and everyone else in the Fellowship. I regret having left without ever saying how I felt directly at Robert’s face and how he demeanored me by making me watch how he demeanored others.
Indeed, the Fellowship is efficient and teaches us to hold the guts that no human being should ever hold in front of the myriad humiliations that students have to put up with and still feel convinced that they are being loved by a conscious being.
Forgive me if I scream and know that it is not at you who could not have addressed me more gently. It is just that confronted with these things I am still screaming and will probably do so for a long time to come.
It will probably take much time for us to understand deeply enough how consciousness can only be genuine within the realm of the human.
Your understanding of external consideration is probably ever so different to mine and this is understandable when it did not exist in the Fellowship. If you could equate it that for me, external consideration is the fulfillment of self remembering, that self remembering is only complete when it naturally evolves into external consideration, then we would be closer to agreeing.
I completely agree with your exposition of the sequence. I sincerely believe that in working on oneself, the need to harness the thoughts is no different to the need to harness the heart, the instinct and the moving centre, and the harnessing of all of these centres is of no use if the sex centre is not equally harnessed.
Perhaps this is precisely why our situation in the Fellowship is so delicate because on the one hand we have aspects of the truth and on the other, we are asked to be conscious without assuming responsibility for ourselves or others in our community. Robert is an artist at playing with all the systems and none at all. He brings the sequence from the monks, closes the Fellowship like a monastery, makes us sweat and faint in his meetings from the fakirs, makes us make money for him from the fourth way and trusts that we are naive enough to end up being too confused to question him. Our own mediocrity in not being able to know what is right for our selves, will prove its worth.
The sequence as used by Robert is meant to detract people from being present to the overall situation in the Fellowship. When such powerful tools are used like that, they are trying to hypnotise and induce people into a certain behavior which we have much adopted already. We are great little lambs, sheep, going to the slaughter house without the slightest idea.
Thank you for reading and considering these thoughts. No aggression is meant for you. The facts horrify me, not the people. Not even Robert, not even if I would scream at him. I would only be doing him a favor. He has crystallized in the softness of our consent. We are, each one of us, sick. I, no less than the rest, and I want to heal myself for I have been broken apart to bear this things.
May 18, 2007 at 8:30 am
228 –
The teacher’s consciousness is “a theory to be verified.”
—–
Well if he is conscious, how could the lower (you the student) see the higher? The only way you can verify someone is conscious (according to FOF 4th way thinking) is if you are at, or above, the level of being of the individual you are observing. So according to this, students who have verified the teacher is conscious must by definition be conscious themselves. Of course all the non-dualists already know this.
—
May 18, 2007 at 9:48 am
Sheik,if you really planing to visit Isis then please be very careful!
They can poison you with some synthetic drugs prescribed by the Fellowship psychiatrist and then,while kept unconscious and may be even paralysed they will call the Ambulance to take you down to the City.Next thing you’ll see is how an American officer attaching a report to your case along with your blood and the urine test.After a while a FOF representative will offer you a barter.You will need to shut down the blog and they will handle the rest.
Don’t be naive Sheik.You really don’t know who you messing with.
May 18, 2007 at 9:49 am
Response to Anonymous #228
– “3. It was only AFTER 25+ years that I came to understand that he is conscious….”
Conscious of what? (In the fof this is a kind of an honorary title)
That people love you if you order them to love you. Like saying everyday, ‘Love, Robert’ in other word you gotta – love Robert.
And why you want to be Anonymous? You are ashamed of something? Or the fof does not allow you to respond and you are a naughty boy or girl?
May 18, 2007 at 10:47 am
Anonymous (234) wrote:
“>Do you believe the FOF is the only organisation on the planet where people can learn something about awakening?
No, of course not. Neither is this part of FoF teaching. The ways to Allah are as numerous as the sons of men (Mohammed).”
At the last dinner I attended with Robert he stated that it was a terrible shame that there were only 1100 people in the entire world who wished to awaken (no surprise, there were 1100 FOF students at the time). I had already decided to leave, but that pretty much sealed the deal. I didn’t believe this nonsense and I also no longer believed that people who joined and then left had no chance of awakening in this life or any future life, were food for the moon, etc. (his variation on the venerable “burn in hell” theme). Well, at least he didn’t say that apostates should be murdered, as does Islam, so I’m told.
Looking back, I’m amazed that I didn’t walk out the first time I heard this stuff. But the appeal this kind of fearmongering has to the ego can override all common sense, and therein lies its genius as a cult-building tool. By staying in we get the enormous ego benefit of being among the lucky few who have found the One True Teaching. To admit otherwise can be tremendously deflating.
We don’t admit to ourselves that this is why we are staying in, of course. We rationalize that the “school” helps us to self-remember. But this is pure idiocy. Self-remembering can be done anywhere, anytime, no teacher or school required.
Mark H
Seattle
FOF member 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
May 18, 2007 at 11:09 am
Dear Anonymous, (8/234)
thank you for your answer. I must admit I was positively surprised and touched. I don’t mean this ironic. Because I was expecting another one-line killer-statement from you, but instead you opened up and I feel what you say is honest. I understand that you do not feel the same welcome in the blog, that you feel when meeting fellow students. But ask yourself, what is your attitude towards the blog? I received my welcoming in the blog from you (8/46)
Who writes the more compassionate post, members or non-members? Can one tell at all?
I believe you when you say that your heart breaks when some of your friends left the FoF. Who knows, maybe Joe Average (8/231) used to be your friend at one point, I think he had something wise to say in his statement. Or take James B. (8/223) is his statement negative? Ames (8/1) even invites everybody and I am sure his eyes will be as radiant, when he sees you again, as you may have seen them is the past. You say some exmembers were your friends and have beautiful souls and that there is true pain in your heart. Then you call them the mob that is baying for blood. I can only guess the tension in your heart between these feelings.
That tension is what I feel a lot of members and exmembers seem to experience and when all that is expressed in words in this blog, it is a rollercoaster of feelings. Allow it, it is your heart, don’t put it back in the closet. Those feelings will not disappear by suppressing them.
I also read you post 8/228
It was only AFTER 25+ years that I came to understand that he is conscious. Those who ‘accept’ or believe in his being conscious without checking it out thoroughly (20 years is nothing in this business) are bound to come a cropper.
It is interesting you call it a business, since that is one of my critical points about the FoF. But let’s not be picky about words, you probable don’t mean it that way. If I would need 20+ years to check RB out, I would know by 2027? Do you expect him to be alive by then? If not, what is the point in joining since I will not be able to verify his consciousness? Does not sound like a practical approach to me.
What was your method of checking RB? How did you finally verify?
In my reality it is quite different. You know in a few seconds. The problem is, you only know after the experience that it is that way. It is like falling in love, before it happens, you hear about it and wonder, but nobody will be able to explain it to you.
You mentioned Rumi, compare his description with yours. Did he say it takes 20+ years and you need to give him money every month? – No.
Consider the description of people describing their first meeting with Gurdjieff, consider how Prince Lubovedsky, Gurdjieffs friend met his school.
The non-business section works directly. If you meet a teacher, and you can talked to him in person, you can check him out directly. He will know your name and your life, he will be approachable. He will not expect you to give him money or sex. And you talk to him before you accept him as your teacher. I understand that some people in the FoF never had a personal face to face talk with RB. How can that be?
I do not agree that the people on this blog don’t want to be loved. I would not judge them (us) in that way. For one, you are one of them and I am sure you want to be loved. I am also one of them and I also liked to be loved.
What do you mean with your last sentence you judge them because you are disappointed in yourself?
I am not disappointed in you and I thank you again for responding in length and I honestly hope you will continue to do so. But if you decide to be off and disappear that is fine too.
Be well
May 18, 2007 at 12:39 pm
In Reply to Posts #191/9, #202/9, #207/9,
#221/9, #222/9 and #224/9
Hello A.,
To me, it is no coincidence that your name is synonymous with everyone on this blog, who ‘is’ anonymous, yet, I sense within your explanation to Clara that you’re 🙂 ‘knit picking’, a hobby attributed to Intellectual types who have crystallized a bit removed from the ‘scale & relativity’ whence the center itself came, i.e., a distant cousin to Higher Mental.
I usually do not reply to people who are obviously ‘mowing the lawn twice’ because the lazy neighbor didn’t see their stoic effort the first time: yet, I take chances sometimes, sensing that some form of sincerity will ‘permeate the crystal’, after all, as G. stated, a man can be un-crystallized, albeit it’s a very difficult process…
It may (or may not) be time for you to take a broader peripheral view of Inner Considering; it is not a mental automation alone, therefore approaching it from the point of view seen through the Intellect is perhaps only a partial triad.
Processes occur very quickly in us, particularly those that are often initiated by being around others or bumping into ‘an unexpected person’.
Take a deeper look with your heart, envision the heart as a kind, patient hydra, with an eye at the end of each valve. With each pulse rate, it goes a little deeper into the phenomenon of feeling, of reading another’s ‘story’ in the now…
It is no mistake that Gurdjieff chose ‘feelings’ as his subject when he said, “It is a sin to hurt another’s feelings.” It looks like a simple idea, to understand, it makes sense, up close, it feels right, yet, to actually know ‘how’ it is a sin is an altogether other world of participation with the subject of human beings, who are many envelopes within the ‘common manila one’ simply ‘thought of’.
What I have observed is that the ‘do’ of inner considering begins with recognition, an emotional recognition…
This is a bizarre event, for it is at this moment of ‘inner recognition’ or ‘automatic denial of some external ‘finger’ to its ‘trigger’ or ‘button’, that a ‘certain something’ standing behind the facade of the everyday role of a person, either in charge or out of charge, turns irritable, conflictive or opposing: yet, this can also occur while reading a book alone in one’s hammock.
So, to make this incredible subject more ‘nut shell like’ I would simply ask you to ‘feel’ inner considering, not to inner consider inner considering; for it is only ‘after’ the fact of the emotional response that the more obvious mind activity begins, this is how one can not speak about inner considering without first including stimulus response mechanism as ‘the spark’ : for if you’re 🙂 maintaining presence, inner considering cannot occur.
This is a huge subject, it points to some very fantastic implications, particularly when looking at one’s self as ‘One’. Inner considering happens without conscious permission, therefore ‘what’ is it that permits the impulse to dive backwards in order to spite the splash?
BTW, there is no such a thing as a “trivial and relatively harmless form of inner considering”, I find it somewhat ‘Twilight Zonnish’ that you would place the word ‘relatively’ and ‘harmless’ next to one another, for certainly if one man is holding a glass beaker of cancer cells, while beside him, another actually ‘has’ blood cancer, one cannot say with clear conscience that both men ‘have’ cancer.
All inner considering is significant in relation to the now, after all, at any one second in the plane of physical time our particular being-body can loose its physical-body, to me, a second of inner considering is worth ‘catching’, for it is here that I am ‘catching my breath’, my ‘real breath’, before it blows the spark into a raging forest fire.
When you say “It is a lamentable fact…” your inner considering, which, for me, places your opinion of inner considering outside your actual “relativity”, for it is from the ‘do’ of I.C. that the post was born.
Lamentation is a static fixation, followed by a mental opinion of another’s set of very kinetic circumstances, circumstances one can not truly ‘get into’, yet, this does not stop the incredible impulse which says “I know you better than you know yourself.” This is simply the King of Clubs and the King of Hearts playing in the sandbox together…
Be careful my friend, things can get deep in this ‘blog’ and kinda misty at times, make sure that your not stepping on lotus’s in order to ‘seem’ to be walking on water.
________________________________________
In reply to ~ (Post 202/9)
Hello WhaleRider:
You say that ~ “I don’t believe there is a historical precedent for a legitimate enlightened teacher to act in the manner that RB does. That’s what I meant.”
_______________________________________
I won’t flip this hamburger too many times; just thought it was a good opportunity to share something that occurred to me reading this line you wrote.
As I read one-word-at-a-time, I see some things that will bring a deep smile to your soul…
First, precedent is an illusion for it is placed next to ‘historical’ which is simply a ‘Guinness Book of World Record’, recorded, so to be re-recorded and ‘beaten’ by another form later ‘in time’; so let’s not mistakingly flatter RB’s pain body-album keepers.
Certainly RB’s role will go ‘down’ in History. Yet, how is it that it is not phrased ‘To go up in History’? For all this drama stays down here, on earth; it does not go up.
The second thing is that word “legitimate”:
my beloved friend, you are the only legitimate conscious being in your life, for your progression is always now, always yours, always you…
What is ‘legitimate’ when taken outside ourselves, but a very shaky observation of a even more shaky set of changing circumstances?
The word ‘Legitimate’, to me, implies some feeling of morality, a kind of expectation satisfied and somewhat closed to further exploration, like, ‘That is a legitimate magician.’ Though alongside this can we say, ‘That is a legitimate illusion.'(?) Of course not, so, we must also ‘logically’ remove the magician as well…
Whoever looks at RB makes him what they make him, close your eyes and there’s nothing there, just you, legitimacy is sister to intimacy, though in the West the word has lost its conscious vibrations; its a fairy-tale-synonym for a ~ satisfied, subjective expectation, fulfilled by a positively corresponding image sent back by the adored, other’s form,
in other words, affirmations work, if your inner world is not.
“There’s the rub.” As soon as one says that RB is what one wishes to be, not only has one taken one’s eye off the starry world once wished towards, one has, by some odd form of impatience and boredom, encapsulated that ‘distant twinkle’ into the ‘twinkling of an earth-form’s eye’.
Certainly, the pure pulses of light that ‘present’ the star as some-thing to wish upon, is no-thing at all, its pure light, whereas, the next time one finds oneself wishing upon the twinkling in another’s eye, remember, that its a reflection of a mucus membrane secretion reflecting a ray of sun and that eye is not your eye, so to speak.
To you Whalerider, thank you for your reply and may love not be with you, rather, you it.
_________________________________________
Dear arthur, (Post #207/9)
Yes, this post is printable: simply highlight, copy and paste into a word document.
What’s up? Did you mean MySpace?
Not sure what your talking about when saying ~ “You’ve done it again, Don’t go anywhere, see one up.” (?)
I mean, how tricky can the question “Is this blog printable?” get?
Please clarify, I sense your asking for something, yet, its kinda ‘misty’.
Be Well.
______________________________________
Hello YouMeUsThey, (Post #221/9)
Just between us, for me, ‘how’ is a better ‘do’ than ‘why’. Somewhere, ‘why’ implies some form of suspicion that something is not right or not wrong enough, perhaps I am mistaken about this, let me know.
An ‘inner jump’, well, that’s love, i.e., at least it is before ‘why’ gets hold of it… If you ‘sense my intent’, then try not to contradict your inner truth with ‘why?’
Sense and move into yourself, no need to look into the mirror twice once you know you’re 🙂 already there.
The only ‘tricks’ is an ‘observation’ from the attitude that sand is far too valuable in making glass bottles, to go play in.
This blog is a ‘sincere’, though only in the Now, as we grow, just like our shoe size, all these ‘shoes’ will not fit us tomorrow the same way, there’s an implication here.
For me, a ‘real’ trick is some form of sarcasm that maintains one’s level of ignorance as a self-evident choice. Now this is in no way referring to you, I only
wish to stress, in respect to replying to your post to me, what I sense a ‘real trick’ is.
Believe me, Vanity and the King of Clubs can be pretty crass and there’s something in everyone who responds as if its normal to insult the unfinished parts of one’s evolving being or another’s, as if to say, ‘Hey, I know this is a stupid question, but, do you guys think I’m stupid?’
These kinda ‘tricks’, particularly the acceptance of certain hydrogens of comedy as ‘fact’ in regards to the insatiable unfinished inner self-judgment aspect of mankind, play a great role in crystallization.
I remember saying as a ‘concerned teenager’ to my father, “Dad, you’re 🙂 going to die smoking all those cigarettes.” His reply was, “You have to die of something.”
So, yes, perhaps certain twists of the formatory center is a certain kind of ‘trick’, though I am almost certain, that you don’t mean a descending octave trick, or the sort of trick that attempts to belittle the reader as some sort of ‘serf’…
As I stated some time ago, I like to write, I primarily write for my own ‘get out the radiations’ desire, i.e., its context begins from a place that would usually be performed in-person, with eye contact and ‘certain’ mood exchanges:
yet, here, the written word cannot roll with all the punches, though I do try to be sincere, yet, it is intuitive sincerity, not from a mental preparation standpoint or a worry that my reader will feel distanced from me, for after all, you are, because you’re 🙂 reading this ‘after’ I wrote it, not during. (Is that a trick?)
Thank you for looking after the edges.
You never know what’s beyond the peripheral ,till you turn towards it.
___________________________________
In reply to ~ (Post #222/9)
Dear Clara,
It is interesting that this entire post was written from the King of Clubs, yet it could be mistaken for something ‘balanced’ and worth pursuing with the justice of an equally ‘balanced’ King of Hearts.
I do not wonder about much, because so much is simply itself, it does not truly need my wondering so to be more or less ‘wondrous’.
Yet, I must say here that there are certainly clear choices presented in this blog site, not unlike those in the FoF; one can feed the body with body-food, this will not change the body. Now fast that body’s hunger and you may find that ‘You’ are not as you ‘thought’ you’d always be, nor are those things you thought about really worth that-much-time, figure out once, then move on.
Certainly Clara you have certain spot-on perceptions of the FoF, yet they wear concrete diving fins.
I wonder, How many anchors does one ship need to be secured to a forest floor?
Clara, your daughter is visiting you these weeks, love her, stop trying to love the FoF, it was never meant to be loved, the hammer and nail is not the home.
I send you my love.
_________________________________________
In Reply to Post #224/9
Hello Keith or Steve Anderson,
From reading your post, I take it that you have not yet fashioned that ‘brain jar’ I spoke of before: nothing like verification to get one to the hardware store in time.
The pain body explanation may have to wait, its a long one, i.e., in regards to its relation to the fourth way. Not to say that the implied ‘length of comment’ has stopped me before: its timing this morning.
I will say something though, for it would be ‘mechanical’ to make the si-do portion of my replies, the shortest and briefest.
Yes, the pain body ‘idea’ came from Tolle, yet, the experiential, verifications, from me. Up close the pain body would seem to be parallel (or the same) as the King of Clubs ‘idea’ of the FoF.
Yet, as I have stated before, it is the machine inside the machine. This is not a ‘trick’ or meant to splash poetics on a particularly practical realm, it is meant to be read literally.
Every center of gravity has its ‘portrait’ of Pain Body-Center of Gravity: for instance ~ The King of Hearts = Injustice
The King of Diamonds = Ignorance
The King of Clubs = Weakness
The King of Spades = Inertia
Is it not odd that the very center of gravity that one has, is the ‘card’ that he or she is most in tramp with?
Believe me, its not the card that’s up one’s sleeve, it’s the one that, after everyone has lost their money and cleaned up for the night, finds out, after counting the deck, was missing all along.
Now one might say, well, that’s the most obvious to look at, i.e., one’s main card would be the first to be put under scrutiny, yet, so often the obvious weakness is the most neglected for it is the one easiest to take for granted, it is self evident, so to speak, therefore not worth opening, after all, why open a clear glass door to see what’s on the other side?
Again, “There’s the rub.” It is what we ‘think’ we know the most that creates one of the most diabolical types of inertia…
Self Assurance or an Essential Talent.
Who would truly believe this statement ~ “Well, that’s just the way I am, I’m the king of hearts.”
The King of Hearts is the sole property of something far beyond the humans its paint is painted on and mankind’s ‘version’ of the King of Hearts is not the same King of Hearts in the hands of presence.
Do you paint with the bucket or the brush?
So, next time you here something like that, do the stop exercise, get round the back- door-side of such presumptuousness and profundity.
Yet, ‘something’ is speaking, though its not You. Would you say, “I don’t remember myself enough.” if you were present? As Rumi said, “Who talks with my lips?” And Rilke, “How is it, that I talk to those who deserve it the least?”
There is perhaps an approaching era where the ‘fact’ of contradictions will not be a clear glass door left alone: for it will come upon the spiritual student, sooner or later, the realization that, the door he or she took for granted in being obviously clear, was in fact a mirror slightly turned to the right a few degrees, just enough to not reflect one’s curios face.
Curiosity is not enough.
Open all doors presented by the obvious.
________________________________________
Love to you all.
May 18, 2007 at 2:14 pm
No person, a good choice for a name
May 18, 2007 at 3:41 pm
Dear Friends,
An Italian blog has been created for contributors who wish to post in Italian and/or enjoing (or proposing) the Italian translation of some of the posts that appear in this blog that we can offer to non-English speaking friends.
The aim is a free discussion about the Work (FOF or not). The address is:
http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/
Siete benvenuti!
Love to all
May 18, 2007 at 4:25 pm
To: More Rumors & Lies #9/236
Although this has been posted before, please let me show you my “thank you” note to Robert upon my leaving. It is below.
Robert Burton
Oregon House, California
Dear Robert,
Many of my friends are leaving the Fellowship right now, and many blame you for deceiving them. I tend to think that you may be equally deceived. I think that you, as a result of your experience with Alex Horn, may be subject to a personality formed in you that has dominated your psychology ever since.
For the last six months I have been seriously studying the current literature on cults and cult related psychology. The conclusion I have reached is that the Fellowship is, in fact, a cult — just like so many other cults. You are cast in the role of “cult leader,” and your behavior parallels other cult leaders to a surprising degree.
I think the so-called “verifications of C-Influence” are not verifications at all.
The “shocks” that we all see are real and have been known to people since the earliest times; Carl Jung called them “synchronicity” or the meaningful coincidence of two or more events. However, your interpretations of them (validating your claims) , the assumption that only Fellowship people receive them (the “chosen people”), attributing the cause to 44 former humans seen only by you — these things I contend are not real, but rather are fantasies. Fantasies gener-ally satisfy an underlying psychological need and that, I think, is the case for all of us who have been involved with the Fellowship, including you, and maybe particularly you.
The fantasy related to your predictions has the potential to be really pernicious.
Robert, the world-wide economic collapse you predicted never happened! Please don’t believe it did, and please don’t change your story to say that you predicted a stock market crash — you predicted a crippling global depression. As for the fall of California … well, it’s absurd. Give it up. The moving of your most psychologically dependent followers to Oregon House, the closing in and isolation it will lead to, the already present armed guards — I think these things are a sign of paranoia.
I am abandoning the fantasy, and I recommend that you do, too. I recommend that you turn your considerable intelligence to studying this cult psychology phenomenon. If you are honest with yourself I think you will find that the shoe fits.
For your sake, and for the sake of those following you, please give up your messianic role, disband the Fellowship, send away your followers, and become an ordinary human again. It’s not too late. Please do it.
Sincerely,
Charles Randall
May 18, 2007 at 4:56 pm
So, it seems that we have two foreign sites already.
There is the Russian: http://fofway.narod.ru/
And the Italian: http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/
May 18, 2007 at 4:57 pm
For those of you who do not speak Russian, but who are curious about what people are writing on the Russian blogs, I suggest that you go to post 237 above, click any one of the links (or the links below), and use the following website to translate from Russian to English:
http://www.freetranslation.com/
Use the “Russian to English” drop-down list, cut and paste the Russian text into the window, and then click the “Free Translation” button.
The very first line:
“I would like to name it for fun Apollo’s Horrors”
http://fofway.narod.ru/page5.htm
http://fofway.narod.ru/page8.htm
http://www.narod.ru/guestbook/?owner=3210512
May 18, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Speaking with many members of the FOF, the main fact for them is that imagination is not presence, they do the sequence and other “tools”(this is the way they call the various ways to stop imagination), in order to escape imagination and be present.
They stay in this “school” for this reason, because RB can help them to escape imagination….so probably at the base of everything there is what can be called a misconception. I told one of them that probably
also imagination happens in the presence..but they say that if they are in imagination (about past, future ecc) they are not in the present. They mostly try to avoid negative imagination, they seem to care less about the positive one.All the FOF is based on this:not to be in imagination…I don’t know much about spiritual paths or exoteric traditions or evolution but I would like to know more about this assumption.
May 18, 2007 at 5:47 pm
To Rumors and Lies: the child story was not written by me.
But I know enough horrifying details about it and will say that unfortunately it IS a true story, and there is more to it…
I also understand that students would buffer this – something so outrageous must be comletely buffered, otherwise your belief in Robert’s holiness would shatter.
It’s OK, keep protecting what you are protecting. I’ve done it too. One day you may have enough.
(I hope this day comes soon for you).
May 18, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Dear All defenders of the FoF faith:
1. For those that wish to continue defending Robert as a conscious being and the FoF as a school (whatever that is) ,thought you might want to have a look in at what is happening in the real world (if you have the guts to step outside yourself for a brief moment and just peek in).
2. For those that want to continue picking away and dissecting words of those Bloggers wanting to help their friends (recognize their own awareness, awakeness – that which has been theirs all along), maybe the following will help.
3. For those that want to condemn Adyashanti, John Wheeler, and others as naïve persons, well– keep on defending Robert- maybe someday you will see the truth (or not) this lifetime or the next.
Well, here is the shocker . While we (yes me as well until I left the FoF almost a year ago) were playing guess my body type, center of gravity or explaining what the number of poops of a prehistoric painting meant, the recognition of a direct path to awakening was happening all around us, as far back as 1985 and more recently an acceleration from 1995 on. And not just for a few chosen but for many, many, many.
Pick up a book called “The Awakening West’ Conversations with today’s New Western Spiritual Leaders” by Lynn Lumiere and John Lumiere., published by Fair Winds Press, Gloucester, MA. Here is a quote from the introduction:
“ Within the past ten years, we have noticed a wave rising steadily in the sea of human consciousness. And it continues to swell in strength and size. We noticed something unanticipated and unheard of quickening within our community of spiritual seekers and humanitarian servers. We saw ordinary people like ourselves having what had previously been considered to be extraordinary experiences of freedom and enlightenment. What we are talking about here can be called by many names: awakening, enlightenment, freedom, liberation, self-realization, etc and has long been considered something that occurs for only the rarest few.
With this book, we are acknowledging and , in a series of conversations beginning to document and explore an awakening in human consciousness on a scale that seems to us wholly unprecedented in Western civilization. Surprising though it may seem, as we proceeded with the research for this book, we discovered that the growing number of awakened Westerners now stretches far beyond the limits of a single volume. The number included in this book, is only a minute fraction of the many we have encountered, or heard about. We expect that the examples in this book will stimulate you to explore this nascent phenomenon for yourself ”.
Included in this book are a small sampling of the ‘realized, awakened leaders’ that are interviewed.. These are just a few of those that are accessible for a meeting or private discussion- and who point you to your own awareness, awakeness, enlightenment,whatever you want to call it.
Adyashanti – California
Bob Adamson- Australia
Peter Fenner- California
Gangaji- California
Douglas Harding – Suffolk, England
Catherine Ingram – Portland
Kenny Johnson- Kansas City
Francis Lucille- California
Wayne Liquorman – California
Mira Pagal- Belgium
Tony Parsons- England
Satan Naydeen – Georgia, USA
Robert Rabin- California
Isaac Shapiro- Germany
Lama Surya Das- Cambridge , USA
Christopher Tittmuss – Devon, England
Eckhart Tolle- Vancouver, Canada
Neelam – California
Rabbi Rami Shapiro- California
Shantimaya- California
Valerie Veneer- California
John Wheeler – California
All of these people have published books (some as many as 5- 7). All of these awake teachers do not bleed you dry for money to give you what is already yours. They charge anywhere from $10 to $50 (for a private meeting), which through discussion with them, if you are open to hear what they have to say, you will not have to return, or continue searching for some guru or teacher that takes you outside of yourself.
All of this has existed for centuries, through Buddhism, Taoism, Hinduism, Sufism, Christianity, etc etc. We just kept missing it, because it was more interesting, more challenging, more exciting to be a seeker, than TO BE that which IS already, that which WE ARE.
For those who want to continue ‘believing’ in something outside themselves, or need to feel part of FoF group- well, all the best. Many of us are enjoying the fresh air out here, the life that is teeming all around us, the beauty (and the ugliness) of everything that is.
No need to defend. It is ok, we understand, we have all been there. But if you dare step outside the four walls created for you by RB and the FoF, there are many of us will be here to help you.
Be well, all the best, L’chayim (to Life!)
May 18, 2007 at 8:00 pm
To Unoanimo:
Same jumping of my heartbit as your post appeared.
Love? I like that…
It is simply true jumping…!
No difficulty in letting go of a “why”.
No difficulty in introducing a “How”.
Sam answer though: my “triks”… I want my “tricks” dose!
None… !!!
No golf player with a basket ball!
No byker cleaning his machine with a teeth brush!
But thanks, I did get a “visial question”:
Do you paint with the bucket or the brush?
I am so fond of your talent(s) exploding here
(you, fully prepared for the appoitment!)that I am aiming to push further the set of possibilities i c;
You know I know hnow how “my” main stings work.
That you would be willing to this “force” of yours might propulse you
May 18, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Elena’s post 222: “Girard with four wives that he is willing to discard as soon as they confront his practical life with his so called consciousness and with a fair practice of porno which was the ONLY pleasure Girard kept for himself. Everything else, money, time, leisure, joy, love, fun, he gave up completely. There is no room for joy, no time for love, in Girard’s personal life or first line.”
The only time I spent one-on-one with Girard was in a car ride. He spent the entire time reminiscing about his days before the FOF. He struck me as someone who was living with regrets about what he had given up to join the school — there was just so much longing in his voice for the life he had left behind, that even at the height of my “good student” days, I felt myself wishing I could tell him that if he missed his old life so badly, maybe he would be happier going back to it. Very sad.
Hava Nagillah, post 233: “Maybe reaching worldless presence has never been your aim or at least not your major aim; however it has always been Robert’s central teaching.”
For someone devoted to wordless presence, Robert sure talks alot, as do all FOF students. The idea of eliminating unnecessary talk was never seriously addressed during any of my years in the school. And besides, isn’t the idea of presence to be able to do it “always and everywhere” — including while you’re talking?
May 18, 2007 at 8:28 pm
Some people have complained that the Fellowship has become a cult over the years. I deeply disagree. If the account from the first student Bonita Guido is true, and I have no particular reason to think that she is making it up, then the Fellowship was deeply flawed and misguided from Day 1 when Robert asked her how much money she would be willing to pay him “to have her soul saved”. I maintain that Robert is essentially evangelical fundamentalist Christian in his beliefs (not surprisingly, coming from Arkansas), and this is only thinly masked by Fourth-Way terminology.
Robert Burton Says: We will all become immortal in the celestial city of Paradise. Paradise has 30.000 inhabitants [information he obtained from a nearby town also called Paradise with 30.000 inhabitants; I have heard that some Christian denominations believe there will be 40.000 people in Paradise, please confirm]. Jesus Christ was the highest conscious man who ever walked the Earth (and possibly the only one more conscious than RB). Influence C ushers us to Heaven’s Gate. Jesus Christ & 43 others are Influence C. RB is the one who is our direct living link to Influence C, he is THE conscious teacher on Earth right now. [Compare JC: “I am the way the truth and the life; NO MAN cometh unto the Father BUT BY ME.”] Enormous suffering must be transformed and endured in order to become conscious, it is a heroic endeavor, we each must be crucified in our own way. We have Influence C and the help of the Gods, while life rejects it and pursues Inluence A. The students in the FoF are the only people who wish to awaken. The rest of humanity will have a sad fate. If you leave the school, you are throwing away the greatest gift on Earth. God is on our side. Our school is the pinnacle of humanity. We do everything to make ourselves available to life, but if they don’t want us, it’s their loss. We are the special chosen ones. When asked in a rare interview for Sacramento Bee years ago whether he was a reincarnation of Christ, Robert Burton humbly replied: Thou sayest it. We have to get as much consciousness for ourselves as we can before we pass into oblivion. And, breaking news, latest daily card: the ultimate task is to make the machine conscious and immortal.
I’m not saying that students in the FoF actually believe all this, but isn’t it telling that the leader of the organization, everyone’s Teacher for Christ’s sake, believes it?
Here’s what I think: The pace of the school is accelerating. What has always been there is becoming more obvious. There is more urgency felt now to remember yourself and create a soul that will not fall prey to time, than ever before. All is swept aside, except trying to be present without words and eliminating all thoughts, because it is believed that each such effort will add to the infant soul and bring you closer to immortality. Robert Burton is getting old. He is going to die and there is nothing he can do about it. He is VERY AFRAID.
May 18, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Completing/correcting the end of my post (pushed the Submit button by “accident”!)
I am so fond of your talents, explooooooooding here,
(you fully prepared for the appointment)
that I am aiming to push further the set of given possibilities!
You know I know how “my” strings work,
who everyone’s strings work.
My point is: be generous and creative enough to ignore them!
No doubts about your intentions, not even a shade of sensing sarcasme…
Allow me to aks for the best!
I am sure you will not blame me for that!
In other words, make sure, while sharing your views, I will not feel you took the “easy road” to capture my attention, even while aiming at extending my “understanding(s)”.
We come from “there” don’t we ?
(I allow myself this quite personal exchange because anyone can find similarities with the Robert Burton pulling “strings” as well,
with obvious diffentent aims/intentions…!)
“The one who has more has to give more”
This is a “tribal” statement I got from my own ancesters. No jokes! I do come from a “tribe” of some sort, settled in an island!
I even wonder whow I could get in touch with such a big world with an FOF and a precious Unoanimo…
Gratitude.
May 18, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Dear Rumors & Lies (#236):
I believe I stated in my first post (somewhere in #7) that due to my beliefs at the time (eg ‘lower cannot see the higher’), I could not leave the school based on my assessment of RB, rather my leaving was made possible by the growing realization though my own inner work away from FoF that an environment of fear and repression were the backbone of FoF, supported by “nonexpression of negative emotions.”
For many years, I stayed in Fof in an effort to share with others what I had been learning, esp about emotional repression. And when I left, the precipitating factor actually was that my husband was diagnosed with lymphatic cancer — a great shock for us, and I no longer felt I could afford to spend my energy trying to help others in FoF.
At the time, I thought I did love R, despite his hurtful behavior, and I see now that fact held me back from leaving for some time. Now I know that kind of attachment is a common experience in closed groups, much like a child with an abusive parent. It is a negative attachment, laced with a confusion of fear & love (irrational fear that survival is threatened without the protection of the leader/parent) and is actually more difficult to break away from due to the effects on the nervous system of the shocks associated with the betrayl/abuse. For people still in FoF this phenomenon may be playing a bigger role than they imagine.
I was also one who was embarrassed by the predictions and angel stories, but chose to ignore them or take them as ‘a test.’ As so well stated by #231. Joe Average.
I did not read the cultic or trauma literature until after I left. It has taken many years for me to allow myself to see and come to more understanding about RB’s behavior to the point where I could finally add my outrage (earlier post here)at the harm done. As I have stated, this blog has helped to remove even more veils.
It is also true that there were many aspects of Fof I was and continue to be grateful for. I learned a great deal. I can’t calculate how much that experience has contributed to who I am today, and I am happy to be who I am today!
My 1992 letter on leaving was very brief — a few lines, as I recall. I told RB my husband had just been diagnosed with cancer, that I needed to devote myself to my family. I did also say that I thought his ongoing comments about former students and the specialness of those who stay created an atmosphere of fear and were destructive to the community. It is true that I thanked him and signed with love.
I certainly did not have the understanding, clarity, time or courage at the time to confront him, as CR did in his letter.
I looked for my 8-page confrontation letter to add to this mix, written around 1983, when I first found out about his sexual orientation and behavior, but it has not survived my file cleaning over the years.
sandra
May 18, 2007 at 9:21 pm
No Person (270): Related to what you’re saying (“There’s more to it…”)… I’ve been watching layer after layer of buffers and denial get ripped away by reading the postings on this website. Yesterday, I believed I knew the truth. Today, I realize that I didn’t know the truth. Now, today, I think I know the truth yet again.
FOF apologists, meanwhile, continue to say, “This is all exaggerated. Really, it’s not that bad.”
Sometimes, I wonder if the truth is not in fact worse than any of us want to believe — and that goes for many of us former FOFers as well. It’s good to look at this blog with a critical eye, (I’m speaking to you tag-teamers), but let’s consider that possibility as well.
May 18, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Just wanted to remind you all of one of the best “miles-per-gallon” post (ratio of truth to number of words) we’ve had so far— in my opinion… (#7-298)
The Absolute Says:
Discussion Parts #1-10
You Are All Right
May 18, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Odd Dichotomy #1
While ALL the xfof blog posters were members of the fof and, as we have witnessed, many were actively engaged in defending the fof and Burton while they were members (myself included), NONE of the current fof defenders have been on the outside and had to go through the painful, difficult and long work of digesting their experience and trying to integrate it into their lives. This is why, in an earlier post, I maintained that only those who had left could have an accurate view of the fof.
Odd Dichotomy #2
This one’s from Margaret Singer: people who tend to be attracted to cult-like groups are generally well-meaning, aspirational, and sincere, never realizing that the cult leader is NOT like them, regardless of how benign an appearance he/she might put forward, since the evidence seems to indicate that most cult leaders are psycopathic or worse, and experts at misleading people.
More rumors and lies, #236:
“…all wrote nice thank you letters when they left to Robert…”
Dear anonymous poster, I would appreciate it if you could obtain a copy of this letter, because I never sent one.
I did have a rather difficult and acrimonious telephone conversation with rb, and I did receive a letter from him the next day (although it was signed by Abraham Goldman) threatening me with legal action if I communicated to friends why I had left.
Come to think of it, how come we who fled never got thank you letters for our years of work and $$ given freely to the fof? Curious minds want to know…
JoelF
May 18, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Cathi,
Yours: “Who told you this story?
I am sure you never took the trouble to study. Why study if you can gather some ignorance and a bit of arrogance and spill it out. Ignorance is free here, you do not even have to pay for it to the Esoteric Sheik.
May 18, 2007 at 10:29 pm
Reply to Posts #238/9, #255/9, #256/9
Hello Halflife ~
You stated ~ “Question: You don’t step into cliches, blissfully drift in the calm waters on your thoughtpoem raft; why the ‘pain body’ ideating anchor?”
Hummmm…. Admittedly I had to look up the word ‘ideating’ just to make sure it related to the word ‘anchor’ in some way and it doesn’t. So, down the amazon I continue to go.
I believe the ‘anchor’ part is yours. The ‘idea’ of Pain body is fairly ‘new’, although I sense that certain ‘Shamans’ can and will be an important ‘bridge’ to understanding the phenomenon better and have known of the ‘body’ for thousands of years, yet called it by other names:
I find it nearly impossible that after thousands of years of super efforts by countless beings in the pursuit of ‘spiritual interaction’, that a modern day German professor would discover something ‘brand new’, for its not the typical German invention one commonly associates with, its a spiritual ‘thingy’.
So my desire to add onto its understanding is entirely personal, a sort of ‘center of attention’ sometimes while writing about all the ‘parts & pieces’ the FoF is so wrapped up in.
For me it simplifies all the ‘stuff in the junk drawer’ and rather than spending three days trying to figure out where ‘this single key I found stuck to a piece of old juicy fruit gum’ goes, it allows one to take the whole drawer out and ask ‘Who made this drawer the ‘junk drawer’ and how is it that there is such a thing, what is a junk drawer, what’s ‘it’ (doing) in my life?
Halflife, really, its not so serious, its a reference point and only a point; a line begins with a point, then the point becomes something ‘longer’. So, for me the Pain body disappears in ‘importance’ once it is noticed, it is certainly not a subject of ‘anchor’ for me, rather, I would sense it more like a ‘crutch’, that one day,
while floating on the ‘raft of life’, one realizes that instead of showing everyone along the shoreline your ‘struggling self’ you simply ‘sit down’, wrap your shirt round the end of the crutch and begin using it as a paddle or a rudder,
to move away from the ‘spectator games’, somewhere closer to those shores where good ole honest 1400 lb crocodiles are sunbathing, a place where one can be oneself without having to sign autographs, give ‘I told ya so’ quotes, Nixon peace signs and promises, one only makes in order to have those ‘wishers’ throw you some tuna cans, bottles of water and 40+ sunscreen.
See, those crocodiles are there for a reason, they are the larger spectrum of common sense…Its when that ole slogan, “When the going gets tough, the tough get going.” simply does not work, that they are brought in to ‘hang with ya’, they exist in the in between spaces, the space between the protagonist and antagonist: for truly, all arguments are simply two people talking to themselves…go figure.
Certainly I am sure you’ve been in situations when no matter your ‘conscious’ intention, a certain ‘tide’ just keeps coming and while perhaps you’re smugly up on true-personality-stilts, the ‘flood’ has made the beach into quick sand.
Often, as Meher Baba once said, “The solution to many problems is to avoid them.” This is a profound statement, I believe he is speaking of the odd law that ‘lessons learnt’ simply keep showing up in one’s Spam Blocker file, same ‘thing’ under a different pseudonym.
So, we have to make oftentimes ruthless moves with our comfort level in order to press on, into the unknown, this is the nature of our real home, one without a roof, without a planet.
Don’t worry, be happy, these kind of crocodiles are not associated with the King of Clubs, they don’t hunt beyond the shore line and only eat curious tourists who have unknowingly attracted their attention with over sized picnic baskets brimming with tuna cans and ‘good’ wishes.
_______________________________________
Hello Ames (Post #255/9)
The last time I heard of someone making a machine conscious was that of Gurdjieff and his ‘experimenting’ co-chiefs awakening of a goat or lamb, then they ate it.
Bonn appetite RB!
________________________________________
To Post #256/9
Hello Traveler:
These days are rich with opportunity to grow, expand, refine and rather than packing ‘my favorites’ in boxes and putting them in storage, where I’ll never see them again, till I’m about to die and decide to have a yard sale,
I would propose a yard fire.
Shams threw Rumi’s books into a well; some say that they were still dry upon retrieval, meaning, for me, that ‘Law Books’, ‘Family albums’ and the like, cannot soak up certain forms of emotional worth (Rumi was a lawyer), certain ‘water’ that nourishes the yearning inside us all to be ourselves deeply, beyond quick fleeting emotional kite flying.
Burn it all. Take all four tires off that comfortable Mercedes and really ‘park it’.
Walk.
All this stuff concerning “Tonight the topic is consciousness.” Do you not see the oxymoron here? “topic” and “consciousness”? Its like saying during a tornado preparation meeting, “Tonight the topic is wind.”
Get off the soap box and take a bath.
Cleanse yourself of the importance of results: men mechanically ‘love’ statistics, measurements, size and winning based upon the willy nillyness of these factors constant, accidental undulations.
Have you ever noticed the automatic oddity of masculine psychological response when presented with certain forms of emotional coffee talk?
For instance, one might say, on the phone, to a man ~ “Last night, while traveling, my son and I hit a deer.” And the guy says ~
“Did you eat it?”
“Was it a buck or a doe?”
“How many points did it have?”
“How much do you think it weighed?”
“Did you kill it?”
“Did it total your car?”
“How much do you think it will cost to get your car fixed?”
“You didn’t eat it?! Where is it?”
What’s missing here? I’ll let you intuit that one.
Love to you.
_________________________________________
Love to you all.
May 18, 2007 at 11:26 pm
Mark H, post 261, wrote:
“But the appeal this kind of fearmongering has to the ego can override all common sense, and therein lies its genius as a cult-building tool. By staying in we get the enormous ego benefit of being among the lucky few who have found the One True Teaching. To admit otherwise can be tremendously deflating.”
I recall reading on the blog a couple of weeks back that Robert said during this time of turmoil in the school the number of students would drop from the current 1200 to 400. I don’t know if he really said this, but I do remember thinking at the time that this was truly ingenious — it plays on one’s vanity as one of the true and strong students who can survive the “shock,” and be closer to the inner circle for it.
It also reminded me of when Miles left and many students left along with him — I remained in the FOF and remember feeling puffed up, like, let them leave, the more the better, because it pushes me up the totem pole and puts me closer to the center of the action. In retrospect, I’m glad I didn’t get too much closer.
May 18, 2007 at 11:31 pm
WHEN A CROCODILE EATS THE SUN is an
African tribal belief that explains the eclipse of the sun.
The celestial crocodile, they say, briefly consumes our life giving
sun, as a warning that he is much displeased with the behavior
of man below. (We have had 2 total eclipses within less then 2 years.} They believe that the celestial crocodile must be truly furious to be back twice in a row, and threatening us with perpetual darkness.
Well. ok, this is a myth.
But the behavior of man below is truly insane.
I assumed the FOF was my safe haven, where beauty,
sanity and intellectual stimulus would protect me from the
darkness of the world. Now, with my eyes wide open,
I see that it was a very naive frame of mind.
RB has attracted many wonderful souls, most of us
seem Outsiders, not really fitting in very well, often with
a catholic upbringing, a slightly dysfunctional background,
often creative, and an intellectual hunger.
It is immensely sad, that RB’s sexual perversions and his massive greed feature has now destroyed a world away from the world.
May 18, 2007 at 11:40 pm
(269) A lover: “They stay in this ‘school’ for this reason, because RB can help them to escape imagination…so probably at the base of everything there is what can be called a misconception. I told one of them that probably also imagination happens in the presence..but they say that if they are in imagination (about past, future ecc) they are not in the present.”
Thanks for raising this issue – it’s fruitful one. It’s clear, if one looks sincerely, that imagination occurs in the present – where else could it occur? We can’t escape from the present for even a millisecond. Noone has ever done it, most likely, which tends to confirm that the present is all there is. The past and future are just mental constructs, useful in some practical instances but with no actual reality.
The reason that FOFers and others believe they are not present is that they identify themselves with their thoughts, which flit around here and there and have no reality whatsoever. But we are not our thoughts – also obvious if one sees clearly for a few seconds.
So we certainly don’t need a “school” to help us “escape imagination”. We (the real we) are not in imagination. A misconception, as you say. That’s why FOFers and other seekers can spend decades making huge efforts and getting nowhere.
May 18, 2007 at 11:42 pm
Dear “having been there”
Thank you for your kind words and sorry if I am trying to answer only tonight. I just read your post. If I know you, as I probably do, please, receive a hug.
To answer your question: I do not know how the blog is affecting the Italian centers.
I do not have connections with current students, and the very few I ear from are old friends who just want to know how we are doing.
Notwithstanding, the new Italian blog that has been advertised could help.
Hoping to meet you, whoever you are,
Gabriella F.
May 19, 2007 at 12:01 am
to : Sandra and Charles R.–nice of you to correct me on the farewell notes you left RB. He (through his spokesman) has informed me he does remember you both, and is thankful for your contribution to the school.
Have you ever considered that your earlier assessment of presence, awakening, Robert and the School was more real than later? Is that possible?
Since you are so fond of the truth, I trust you wont mind then when FOF members correct some of the pathetic lies told by some of the pranksters on this blog, you know who they are!
Thanks for dispelling the rumors!
May 19, 2007 at 12:16 am
Little correction to Sandra re Charles R.: “I certainly did not have the understanding, clarity, time or courage at the time to confront him, as CR did in his letter. ”
Courage? CR is a freakin’ coward, knowing what is going on for years, behind RB’s back calling RB as on a “permanent vacation” (James B say this) and only “confronting” him with a little letter when leaving? Give me a break, CR is a coward as well as a jackass! Starts reading a few books on cults and gets swept away–quite the genius! But for years enjoyed his little salary here and planned his exit, all the while enjoying his traveling teacher trips.
Good riddance CR!
May 19, 2007 at 12:19 am
The irony is that it is the conditoned mind and emotion that sees “presence” as “presence”. The solution is for “presence” to see that this is so.
May 19, 2007 at 12:20 am
Yes, dear Traveler, The pace of the school is accelerating – in fact I heard this phrase since the day I joined the school. It was accelerating, accelerating, going faster and faster.. It must be going so incredibly fast by now.
Anything that rolls down the hill or falls is naturally accelerating. Until it hits the bottom!
And I do think too that Robert is very afraid of physical death. He likes to talk about death. He always points to cemeteries, tragedies, reminds us about “limited time in our lives”, collects people’s last words… He saw a cemetery near our neighborhood, and made sure everyone around him saw it, (OK, so what – it’s a cemetery) and later requested us to find information about this cemetery – to see if there is a deeper meaning in it’s name or something… (Apparently, the name was not esoteric enough to be keyed).
He predicts wars and deadly disasters, like hydrogen warfare or CA earthquake… He wouldn’t give up on his “end of the world” stuff. Why? To scare you with physical death, because he is obviously very afraid of it himself. No, he is not talking about death metaphorically, there were too many occasions when it was pretty clear what he was talking about… I personally heard him talking about millions of “life” people in California dying under water as a result of 1998 quake – women, children… He got carried away and went into details at teaching dinner in 1997, describing the devastation. No, he was not talking about some symbolic death of many I’s…
I had a weird feeling that somehow this conscious loving being actually CAN’T WAIT for the devastation and massive death to happen…
Now he wants to make “a machine” immortal according to his latest daily card…
If he is a realized being, as he claims himself to be – why such fascination with death of the physical body and obvious fear of it?
Hasn’t he supposedly created his “immortal astral body” already? So what’s with the fear?
Lots of older people are naturally scared of death – it is this inevitable Unknown that is so terrifying. Robert (although he claims to be a realized being) doesn’t seem to be able to embrace Unknown and get comfortable in simply Not Knowing. Look what he does – he restlessly tries to label, key, interpret, predict, dissect all that he encounters – to buffer with mental noise the simple truth that we really don’t know and cannot know…
Had anyone ever heard Robert say “I don’t know”? I personally haven’t – in all my years in the school.
I heard Adyashanti saying “I don’t know” on the first time I met him. He said it simply and sincerily in front of a large group of people, answering someone’s question. I heard John Wheeler say “I don’t know” quite few times.
But not Robert. He knows it all, it appears, and is always right too. He knows about the future (even though it doesn’t exist), he knows about the past – he can read between the prehistoric poops and stick figures; he can see the invisible and know the unknowable.
But somehow he is very scared of his own death… May be he knows something?..
May 19, 2007 at 12:27 am
In regards to legal action against the FOF , RB and the Board of Directors. This is unlikely to produce much of a result in terms of the repayment of assets If for no other reason than RB, the FOF and Board of directors are somewhat judgment proof.. The FOF has no asset’s as it owes more than the value of its holdings and continues to relay on “donations” for income.
However it might be possible to make a case for the FOF leadership forcing dissident members out to cover up misappropriation of funds and gain the reinstatement of former members. It is possible to make and substantiate an argument for the FOF leadership misusing funds.
This has little meaning for me as I left some 25 years ago and the time limit for filing is 7 years. Those who left for the 7 years preceding the filing of a case would have a legal standing. As well as any one who is a current member who chooses to join. One value to investing in the cost of such an action is that it extends the time limit. If this is a class action suit the class would be all former students dating back 7 years from the filing of the case. What this course of action makes possible is that former students could gain a voice in the current FOF and as part of the future of the FOF. The process of a lawsuit can last for several years. In our legal system Not a lot is required to file suit. The FOF attorney’s can file to have the court refuse to hear the case or dismiss it as frivolous but it requires only a very basic reasonable premise to initiate a suit.
One benefit of filing such a suit is to power to require that R and other’s of the FOF leadership have to go through discovery.
If interested check out the wikepedia entry on Discovery
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Discovery_(law)
In law, discovery is the pre-trial phase in a lawsuit in which each party through the law of civil procedure can request documents and other evidence from other parties or can compel the production of evidence by using a subpoena or through other discovery devices, such as requests for production and depositions.
What this means is that individuals can be forced to appear under threat of being found guilty of contempt of court to appear and answer questions. If R. was subpoenaed and fail to appear he can be cited and arrested.
This blog in and of itself is the most potent treatment for the criminal elements that have corrupted the FOF. The process of crime or disease is described as when a form acts contrary to the health of the whole. It is often difficult for us to understand the nature of healing as so often our culture teaches that destruction can produce healing. Destruction can be necessary to stop the process of crime but only healing can repair the damage. Healing requires a new form. This blog treats some of the most extreme symptoms of the disease that exists in the FOF. It promotes a healthy circulation of experience and ideas. This blog makes it difficult to reference past post’s but someone posted an imaginary scenario in which R approved the need for honesty and encouraged members to read and post on the blog. This really is the right direction.
Scott Duncan
May 19, 2007 at 12:53 am
Solsbury Hill (247):
We all have our favorite Fellowship lyrics, don’t we? The Top Forty-Four. Solsbury Hill is one of the best, but there are so many. Others on this blog have quoted from Hotel California. RB once said the Eagles were his favorite band. (Actually, I think he said they were the greatest band, but I’m translating into a language that makes more sense to me.) As the French say, to each his goo. (Speaking of which, I believe his favorite song was Hot Stuff.)
How about “Lie to Me” from Jonny Lang:
Lie to me and tell me everything is all right
Lie to me and tell me that you’ll stay here tonight
Tell me that you’ll never leave
Oh, and I’ll just try to make believe
That everything, everything your telling me is true
Come on baby won’t you just
Lie to me, go ahead and lie to me
Lie to me, it doesn’t matter anymore
It could never be, the way it was before
If I can’t hold on to you
Leave me somethin’ I can hold onto
For just a little while won’t you, won’t you let me be
Oh, anyone can see
That you love him more than me
But right now baby let me pretend
That our love will never end
Lie to me, go ahead and lie to me.
Or this one, from David Crosby (one of the most beautiful songs I’ve ever heard, called “Laughing”):
I thought I met a man,
Who said he knew a man,
Who knew what was going on.
I was mistaken.
Only another stranger that I knew.
And I thought I found a light
To guide me through my night
And all this darkness
I was mistaken.
Only reflections – of a shadow that I saw.
And I thought I’d seen someone
Who seemed at last
To know the truth
I was mistaken.
Only a child – laughing – in the sun
Ah! In the sun….
May 19, 2007 at 1:56 am
For perspective on RB’s uniqueness:
http://bewareofthegod.blogspot.com/
“At one point in our conversation I challenged Saniel to tell me what differences he feels distinguish Da’s teachings from some traditional spiritual teachings other than the semantics. Dzogchen and Mahayana Buddhism for example. He said that the difference was in the practice, the yoga. No one else has ever done what Da has done, he said, which was to bring the enlightened state fully into the body. He started shouting, “Jim! No one has ever done it! No one! Not the Dalai Lama, beautiful man that he is, not no one! The Buddhists and the whole rest of them are out of the body!””
May 19, 2007 at 2:11 am
Rumors and Lies (286, 287):
Please tell me who I can start mailing my checks to, so I can learn to work on myself to achieve what you have. I miss being eight years old, and would like to at least sound like an angry child again. And please let me know when someone starts dispelling some of the misinformation being posted by exmembers, other than by shrieking “That’s a lie, you poopyhead!”
May 19, 2007 at 2:22 am
Hi Scott,
(I’m intentionally saying “hi” as opposed to “hello” — sort of an exercise that I use.) Those are very interesting and helpful comments in #290.
By the way, to reference your post, I can simply click the date under your name, and paste the URL below:
The link above takes the readers directly to your post. You can also right-click the date, and select “Copy Shortcut” from the right-click menu, and then click Ctrl-v to paste.
Here’s a link that takes us directly to the post by “In a Parallel Universe” that you mentioned in #290:
So this this method is also helpful for anyone who wants to reference the posts on earlier pages… less scrolling up and down, etc.
May 19, 2007 at 2:39 am
Rumors & Lies (286 & 287) – scary stuff! People who have actually met CR remember him as a decent, friendly, thoughtful person, sincerely interested in awakening but gradually disillusioned through his regular contacts with RB in his job as FOF treasurer. At least that’s what I saw.
I guess something CR wrote pushed R&L’s buttons and turned him into the raving maniac of postings 286 and 287. Is this what lurks beneath the smiling exterior of the FOF true believer? (cue spooky music)
“Killing others is not as good as killing yourself” The Blue Cliff Record.
May 19, 2007 at 2:43 am
Dear Innernaut,
I thank you for your picture of Girard. I hope he reads your e-mail 9/273 and remembers the beauty of being a free man. I think, although we are old, we still have time to see each other living again.
Thank you.
To Unoanimo, (263) from Elena
I beg you allow me to live my life as I find it worthy without your advice or patronizing. If it fits you to patronize others that find it a welcomed gesture, please extend yourself in better places.
I will neither move on when you say so, nor do I care wether you find my perceptions spot on, and leave my family alone, we are doing just fine without you. I will love and continue to love, no matter what you say and I will also hate and continue to hate no matter what you say, including those people like you who think you can go around the world counselling others from above without burning in the fire.
It is interesting that you think the entire post I’ve written is from the King of Clubs, but you do not dare hold your statement with reason, because as I said before, you are not those that really wish to reason, you just wish to demeanor others. You sound just like Robert that will send out a little line like yours, “That is the King of Clubs, that is feminine dominance, that is the lower self” and expect one to tremble in fear of your magnanimity. But I think your king of clubs is just feeling a little photographed and looking for some attention from me because your vanity can’t live without it. You write to every one so that you can get it. So take it. May it please your vanity to draw it, if your true personality can’t take it, but know that I neglect to read the rest of your posts because of the superiority complex they spill out from the beginning.
I had tried to read some when you managed to keep me out of them but I have again lost the interest.
I do thank you never the less, for the pleasure of hating your manners. I’ve been trying not to hate anything for so long and it is such a pleasure to know that what is despiseful, cannot be loved. I already made that mistake for too many years in my life.
May 19, 2007 at 2:48 am
Dear Unoanimo post 9/281 replying to my post 9/256 – “burn it all”, “cleanse yourself of the importance of results” – thanks for the advice, couldn’t agree more. I was playing devil’s advocate, trying to express thoughts in a way that current believers would be able to relate to and would provide a point of departure for them to examine what it is they actually believe in. Must have been really convincing in my role. 🙂
Or maybe I still don’t understand what you saw in my post… Doesn’t matter.
May 19, 2007 at 3:20 am
287..Rumors & Lies Says:
You should try to settle down a bit. Your beginning to sound bitter, jealous and an absolute fool. You should look out for your own ass, literally and figuratively. For you to assume you know what goes on in someone is both arrogant and ignorant, and we know how rare that is in the FOF.
May 19, 2007 at 3:24 am
Dear, Hava Teqillah,
I know who you are, you’re Joseph Goebels, minister for public enlightenment.
You should be dead by now, I suspect you have become an immortal conscious being
through use of the secret uber sequence.
“The Sequence is a deeply rooted esoteric method to eliminate imagination and reach presence. It has been a major part of many traditions for thousands of years.
Robert Burton did not invent the Sequence and YES it IS meant to reduce “thoughts” and increase wordless presence. This is the whole aim of the school.”
Yes, I remember that speech, though I was only a child. How afterwards you danced and wept with laughter when you realised how gullible the masses truly were. Brilliant Herr Goebels, controlling thoughts, with wordless presence, and eliminating ( I love that word) imagination. Soon you said, no one will mention the blow jobs – ooops sorry!
Love,
Ryan
May 19, 2007 at 3:49 am
Hello.
The tone the Fellowship members adopt in their posts is strange. Oftentimes they are incomprehensible and amazingly angry.
I imagine their faces as they write and envision them as screwed up in frustration, panic and rage. Their written expressions belie those emotions.
It appears that they don’t consciously consider their words. They become identified with anger, hastily write posts and hit “submit comment” before truly thinking about what they wish to express. Their comments do not illustrate consciousness or presence.
They often directly and cruelly insult individuals in an immature manner which oozes hatred and disdain.
Although they claim they’ve verified something and have achieved some level of experiencing presence, those qualities, in general, are not discernible in their written expressions.
Here is one example:
Hava Nagillah (264): “No person, a good choice for a name.”
This is an immature insult and is a run-on sentence (comma splice).
I mention the grammatical error only because it is a manifestation of an over-emotional, angry state in which one loses an intellectual grasp and doesn’t consider the importance of clarity of expression.
Admittedly, it speaks volumes in its (ungrammatical) brevity. This person attempts to inform all ex-members that they are nobody and/or nothing. He or she has lashed out in a nasty and sarcastic manner toward a large group of people.
The intent appears to be to entirely obliterate “no-name’s” validity as a human being because they are not in the school.
Hava Nagillah attempts to annihilate this person, his/her beliefs, questions and perceptions with this childish sentence.
No one can exist tangibly if they don’t agree with Hava Nagillah.
“Hava Nagilla” is a Jewish term, meaning, “Let us rejoice and be happy. Awaken brother and sisters with a happy heart”.
Strangely, this person’s comment (“No person, a good choice for a name.”) aligns him/her with Hitler’s theories about the existence of a master race.
In this case, Hava Nagillah indicates that a person is “nothing” because he or she does not believe similarly.
That means that 6.5 billion people are nothing. Only 2,000 have the right to life.
It seems very mean.
Best of everything to everyone,
LL
May 19, 2007 at 4:12 am
To: Rumors & Lies 9/287
Temper, temper, son! You may have used up several days worth of Hydrogen 12 on that kind of negativity. Don’t they teach you anything in that school of yours?
May 19, 2007 at 5:07 am
from http://www.culthelp.info/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=55&Itemid=7
LEAVING THE SPIRITUALLY ABUSIVE SYSTEM–THE WITHDRAWAL STAGES
One former member observed that she isn’t an Ex-cult member she is a “Recovering cult member.”
The control in spiritually abusive systems is so strong that people report they have been affected for years afterwards. It is for this reason that the WITHDRAWL STAGES should be well understood by everyone.
STAGE ONE:
This often begins almost immediately after conversion. The mind and will may be completely taken over by the logic presented by the cult. However, the gut feeling, emotions, or conscience often indicates that something is not quite right.
STAGE TWO:
This doubt causes a feeling of guilt which the person attempts to stuff and deny. The guilt drives him or her to deeper resolve to “do right” or submit and to ignore any information that conflicts with the cults’ message. However, the conscience continues to exert itself causing the person to question things. Most people don’t know what to question. They may question the “standards”, the existence of God or the truth of the scripture. They rarely have enough wisdom to question the history or the doctrine of the group.
STAGE THREE:
The person will give lip service to the group but in reality often behaves or does things that are against the rules. This causes even more guilt and more resolve to “get right.”
STAGE FOUR:
If the person is observant and alert, he or she may notice some discrepancies between what the scripture says and what is done within the group. Or he may hear of a scandal or problem that bothers him. This may worry some people but many others just think, “Oh, well, the people aren’t perfect but the organisation or church is perfect.” Or “Oh well, what can I do?” or “Oh well, God will take care of it.”
STAGE FIVE:
The person may hear of the history of the church and begin to wonder why he was lied to regarding the founder of the group. An inquisitive person may begin an investigation. At this point, the person usually becomes very quiet and fearful about letting others know of his questions. By this time he has found out that it is socially unacceptable to voice any doubts.
STAGE SIX:
The denial stage in which the person decides to ignore all the warning signs. They are actually afraid of or angry at anyone who has information that exposes the deceit of the workers. Some people NEVER get past this stage. They are hostile towards any information that spotlights the deceit and errors of the group.
STAGE SEVEN:
The “Don’t know what to think” stage. MANY people get stuck here. They will try to figure things out on their own. They are suspicious of everyone. They don’t trust their friends or family and they don’t trust themselves. They don’t trust traditional Christianity. They don’t trust the information that exposes the group. They may not trust the scripture and might try to find reasons to believe the Bible wasn’t translated correctly. This stage is very critical. The stress of it can cause illness, anxiety, nightmares, emotional problems, marital problems, divorce, destructive accidents because of so much mental preoccupation, suicide, hostility and anger. Some report a problem with nausea, clenched teeth or other outward signs of tension. This stage is extremely painful and frightening. Usually the longer a person or his family has been in the group, the more painful it is.
At this stage, some people try to reason with the leaders. They will either arrange for visits or write long agonizing letters. Some hope that they can change the system or get some to agree with them. They are AMAZED at the total inability of leaders to hear what they are saying. However, some will agree with their arguments, pat them on the head and try to smooth their ruffled feelings.
STAGE EIGHT:
The state in which a decision is made to leave the group. The person may go in several directions. They may become angry at God, or become an agnostic or atheist. They may try to start their own spiritual quest or church in the home. They may reach out to secular psychology for relief. Or, they may hook into another cult. They may decide to just let the spiritual part of their life hang in mid-air for awhile. Some people get stuck in a yo-yo syndrome: they will leave the church, go back to the church, leave, go back, leave and go back. They rarely ever figure out what the church believes or even what they believe. Or, they may become born again as a result of doing some intense praying, in-depth study and reaching out to normal Christian information. This stage is extremely crucial. If a married couple doesn’t agree or reach this stage together it can destroy their marriage.
Almost total rejection from the group and professing family occurs if the person announces his new allegiance to Christ instead of to the group system.
STAGE NINE:
The state in which the old personality disintegrates and a new one is formed. The person will get rid of old clothes, old hairstyles, old possessions. Some people experience a lot of anxiety in adjusting to a new identity because their whole self concept was so closely tied to the group attitude towards themselves. New interests, charitable activities and hobbies are found. Bible study and Bible classes become the new excitement if one has been born again. The person rejoices at every new day and has a sense of peace. The world looks beautiful, people seem wonderful, nature seems to glow with the power and beauty of God. If a satisfactory church is found the person finds a great deal of happiness.
STAGE TEN:
The person is in constant amazement at the difference between the old life and the new life. The person is able to pity those who are still in the old group and will eventually be able to laugh about his old experiences. The person will often want to reach out to others whom he has known while in the group. He feels a strong need to talk about the experience in order to understand the strong emotions and confusion he felt while inside the group. Talking to other ex-professing people seems to be the best therapy for those going through this process. Writing down what one has heard, experience and believes also helps clarify one’s thoughts.
POST-CULT TRAUMA SYNDROME
After exiting a cult, an individual may experience a period of intense and often conflicting emotions. She or he may feel relief to be out of the group, but also may feel grief over the loss of positive elements in the cult, such as friendships, a sense of belonging or the feeling of personal worth generated by the group’s stated ideals or mission. The emotional upheaval of the period is often characterized by “post-cult trauma syndrome”:
spontaneous crying
sense of loss
depression & suicidal thoughts
fear that not obeying the cult’s wishes will result in God’s wrath or loss of salvation
alienation from family, friends
sense of isolation, loneliness due to being surrounded by people who have no basis for understanding cult life
fear of evil spirits taking over one’s life outside the cult
scrupulosity, excessive rigidity about rules of minor importance
panic disproportionate to one’s circumstances
fear of going insane
confusion about right and wrong
sexual conflicts
unwarranted guilt
The period of exiting from a cult is usually a traumatic experience and, like any great change in a person’s life, involves passing through stages of accommodation to the change:
Disbelief/denial: “This can’t be happening. It couldn’t have been that bad.”
Anger/hostility: “How could they/I be so wrong?” (hate feelings)
Self-pity/depression: “Why me? I can’t do this.”
Fear/bargaining: “I don’t know if I can live without my group. Maybe I can still associate with it on a limited basis, if I do what they want.”
Reassessment: “Maybe I was wrong about the group’s being so wonderful.”
Accommodation/acceptance: “I can move beyond this experience and choose new directions for my life” or…
Reinvolvement: “I think I will rejoin the group.”
Passing through these stages is seldom a smooth progression. It is fairly typical to bounce back and forth between different stages. Not everyone achieves the stage of accommodation / acceptance. Some return to cult life. But for those who do not, the following may be experienced for a period of several months:
flashbacks to cult life
simplistic black-white thinking
sense of unreality
suggestibility, ie. automatic obedience responses to trigger-terms of the cult’s loaded language or to innocent suggestions
disassociation (spacing out)
feeling “out of it”
“Stockholm Syndrome”: knee-jerk impulses to defend the cult when it is criticized, even if the cult hurt the person
difficulty concentrating
incapacity to make decisions
hostility reactions, either toward anyone who criticizes the cult or toward the cult itself
mental confusion
low self-esteem
dread of running into a current cult-member by mistake
loss of a sense of how to carry out simple tasks
dread of being cursed or condemned by the cult
hang-overs of habitual cult behaviors like chanting
difficulty managing time
trouble holding down a job
Most of these symptoms subside as the victim mainstreams into everyday routines of normal life. In a small number of cases, the symptoms continue.
* This information is a composite list from the following sources: “Coming Out of Cults”, by Margaret Thaler Singer, Psychology Today, Jan. 1979, P. 75; “Destructive Cults, Mind Control and Psychological Coercion”, Positive Action Portland, Oregon, and “Fact Sheet”, Cult Hot-Line and Clinic, New York City.
THE EMOTIONAL PAIN OF LEAVING A CULT
The following is how former cult members and members of spiritually abusive systems described how they felt when they finally left their group. This may give you some insight into their pain and why there are no easy answers for them.
It Hurts
It Hurts to discover you were deceived – that what you thought was the “one true religion,” the “path to total fredom,” or “truth” was in reality a cult.
It Hurts when you learn that people you trusted implicitly – whom you were taught not to question – were “pulling the wool over your eyes” albeit unwittingly.
It Hurts when you learn that those you were taught were your “enemies” were telling the truth after all – but you had been told they were liars, deceivers, repressive, satanic etc and not to listen to them.
It Hurts when you know your faith in God hasn’t changed – only your trust in an organization – yet you are accused of apostasy, being a trouble maker, a “Judas”. It hurts even more when it is your family and friends making these accusations.
It Hurts to realize their love and acceptance was conditional on you remaining a member of good standing. This cuts so deeply you try and suppress it. All you want to do is forget – but how can you forget your family and friends?
It Hurts to see the looks of hatred coming from the faces of those you love – to hear the deafening silence when you try and talk to them. It cuts deeply when you try and give your child a hug and they stand like a statue, pretending you aren’t there. It stabs like a knife when you know your spouse looks upon you as demonised and teaches your children to hate you.
It Hurts to know you must start all over again. You feel you have wasted so much time. You feel betrayed, disillusioned, suspicious of everyone including family, friends and other former members.
It Hurts when you find yourself feeling guilty or ashamed of what you were – even about leaving them. You feel depressed, confused, lonely. You find it difficult to make decisions. You don’t know what to do with yourself because you have so much time on your hands now – yet you still feel guilty for spending time on recreation.
It Hurts when you feel as though you have lost touch with reality. You feel as though you are “floating” and wonder if you really are better off and long for the security you had in the organization and yet you know you cannot go back.
It Hurts when you feel you are all alone – that no one seems to understand what you are feeling. It hurts when you realize your self confidence and self worth are almost non-existent.
It Hurts when you have to front up to friends and family to hear their “I told you so” whether that statement is verbal or not. It makes you feel even more stupid than you already do – your confidence and self worth plummet even further.
It Hurts when you realize you gave up everything for the cult – your education, career, finances, time and energy – and now have to seek employment or restart your education. How do you explain all those missing years?
It Hurts because you know that even though you were deceived, you are responsible for being taken in. All that wasted time … at least that is what it seems to you – wasted time.
The Pain Of Grief
Leaving a cult is like experiencing the death of a close relative or a broken relationship. The feeling is often described as like having been betrayed by someone with whom you were in love. You feel you were simply used.
There is a grieving process to pass through. Whereas most people understand that a person must grieve after a death etc, they find it difficult to understand the same applies in this situation. There is no instant cure for the grief, confusion and pain. Like all grieving periods, time is the healer.
Some feel guilty, or wrong about this grief. They shouldn’t – It IS normal. It is NOT wrong to feel confused, uncertain, disillusioned, guilty, angry, untrusting – these are all part of the process. In time the negative feelings will be replaced with clear thinking, joy, peace, and trust.
Yes – It hurts but the hurts will heal with time, patience & understanding.
There is life after the cult.
May 19, 2007 at 6:26 am
It is amazing to me to see the amount of points, points, points and counterpoints. I can hardly get through it all; it takes hours. I left off at:
#233
Is there anything you could witness in the group to shake your belief?
In my experience with fundamental christians it is the same: no amount of logic will dislodge it.
You have abandoned your most valuable human feature: your ability to reason.
May 19, 2007 at 6:29 am
I just saw “The Lives of Others”. A fabulous German film that leaves you rather speechless at the end. The parallel to the FoF and the people around RB that vigilantly defend him is obvious. The main character in the film, is a stazzi operative, dedicated, brain washed and fiercly loyal to the East German state. During the course of his informing on various people, he suddenly developes a conscience and a heart, to the point of saving someone he is spying on at the expense of his own career and position.
I wonder what would happen if any of the operatives around RB suddenly were hit by a bolt of conscience and rallied round some of the young males students that were getting their knobs polished every night and helped them to get out or file a lawsuit against RB.
What is curious to me is that most of the operatives around RB are Jewish – Linda, Kevin, Asaf, Mark, Elisabeth, and others (that I missed) that defend the person who can cause so much suffering and damage over the years. You would think that the long line of suffering that the Jewish people have undergone, and the horrible history of the second world war, would make them more sensitive to the bullshit and twisted lying that goes on every day at Isis – that they have to defend and pretend that everything is wonderful behind the closed doors of the academy. All I can say, is shame on you. It is the same ‘see no evil, hear no evil’ that went on during the second world war in Germany and throughout the occupied countries. Wake up my friends- in a smaller way, but no less insidious you are supporting someone that has a sickness and smell of corruption at its root.
May 19, 2007 at 6:51 am
Dear sex and cult and others,
Mourning is part of now
as the leaves fall of the tree in autumn..
The leaves do not resist, they trust?
Thanks for sharing as I can feel you in the tips of my toe, my heart…are we connected..
That what always was, is now and will be.
Trust and heal as life is healing till the end.
Who said it?
It is not about how long you live but how you lived.
Start now, be proud of your pain carry it fully and graciously, I am with you,
Invisible and many others…connected.
I am sorry for you, you are part of my world and I love you.
Somebody is singing solitary man and I join with my humming ready to start shouting it out.
May 19, 2007 at 7:16 am
“All of these people have published books (some as many as 5- 7). All of these awake teachers do not bleed you dry for money to give you what is already yours. They charge anywhere from $10 to $50…”
Enough said.
“We all have our favorite Fellowship lyrics, don’t we?”
Yeah! My favorite is that Country Classic entitled: “Have You Been Livin’ As High On The Hog As The Pig You’ve Turned Out To Be?”
Love to y’all.
May 19, 2007 at 7:47 am
Many moving stories… Its very little screaming i hear in this blog,despite the deeply emotional subject.
As James B. ( who incidently was introduced to me as a budding men #5 in the 80’s) and many others mentioned, I did not leave with a hatefull heart and still have good memories about my life in Renaissance and Apollo.
But what caused that change in us that did not let us understand Roberts angles as we did before? I believe this is worth looking at.The little events are often the most transforming ones.
There was a student working as a server in a Nevada City restaurant and in a conversation he mentioned the arrogance and ‘above life ‘ attitude he see’s when fof members enter the restaurant. I started looking .. and noticed it too.
A friend of mine gave an angle at a meeting and was asked to leave. Why?
Another friend had a bad experience with Robert and distributed a letter in the mail boxes at the Lodge. Before lunch they where all gone.
In a meeting with Lodge staff I expressed my need to do something about my friends beeing asked to leave. Many agreed and wanted to talk. One said : ‘Do you think you live in democracy? This is RB’s school and if you don’t like it get out’.
I realized, I don’t like it and planned my escape. This was my awakening and I felt a strong hand of C-influence guiding me into my new life.
All the best,
Michael
May 19, 2007 at 7:49 am
Quiet One #198 Thank you for speaking up. Your story did not go unnoticed. It is a heartfelt part of my healing process to read about yours. We need more like you sharing here.
CharlesR #266 Your conscience shines through! Thanks for posting your letter, like Ames’s, it is inspiring.
JoelF: Is there a statute of limitations about when you could legally discuss why you left? I would be interested in knowing more.
ShellyM: Thanks for updating my memory about the LeBrun with your story. It helps.
unoanimo #263 Alas, I am adrift in your reductionist cosmospeak… BTW, that hamburger wasn’t intended for your plate.
exlax 101 #243 The emotional intensity of one’s reaction is the clue that its source may lie deeper below the surface. I am glad we have common ground about Brian. Would you be willing to tell more details of what you know to be true in the sad circumstances of Brian’s passing? The FOF party line is that he was a “hopeless alcoholic”, which you and I both know is false. What stinks to you about it?
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 19, 2007 at 7:59 am
Learn how to crawl
Love to you all.
May 19, 2007 at 9:02 am
And another thing: I knew Charles R., J Bryant, Joel, Bruce, Collin, Linda, Sandra, etc. They were (are?) the rock stars. Then there were so many others that benefitted without being considered teachers. Like Grant. What did he know? And when did he know it? Many of us didn’t profess to know the secrets of the teaching. And we didn’t manipulate for personal advantages knowing it was a fraud. I didn’t know Ames well but he seemed to work hard. I knew Brian S. We were about the same age. He was a very gentle person and I saw him wither. I didn’t have any idea what was going on. I got out shortly after Miles. I had heard too much to stay.
Getting out was tough, but so was I. You’ve got to have a passion to live your life. I believe this life is all we are going to have.
I tried several times to reconnect with my old friends left behind and got the well-documented cold shoulder. I’ve not had any contact for at least ten years.
It is amazing to me that Steve D. is still there. We were friends. He was an achiever and got into olive oil. Good for him, but he is still stuck. And Gideon invested his talent and intelligence and continues to plow it back into this fantasy. What happened to Omar and Donald and Dennis and Lloyd? Remember our friend Elan?
I don’t think the rock stars know these people. We were just the cheap labor. I have heard that many of the people I knew are still there and I marvel at that.
Life is messy. It can tear you up. But hiding in a made-up hideaway based upon a charismatic leader’s fantasy is a lie you are basing your precious life upon.
I sought the truth. When I discovered that RB was a hypocritical leader I left. You, if you are reading, should too.
May 19, 2007 at 9:03 am
Could we have less quotes from the Eagles and David Crosby please! One of the clear advantages of the FOF is that I rarely have to listen to bland AOR rock.
May 19, 2007 at 9:19 am
#263 unoanimo
When I first read your post and saw you didn’t respond to me I was sad but when I re-read it I saw you had and I put on a happy face.
May 19, 2007 at 10:08 am
#287 Rumors & Lies
“Courage? CR is a freakin’ coward, Knowing what is going on for years….”
Knowing what is going on for years, years ago.
What kind of freakin’ mutant slug f#%*er does that make you?
May 19, 2007 at 11:08 am
“ The soul is the self-reflective, truth-discerning, and spirit-perceiving part of man which forever elevates the human being above the level of animal world.
Self-consciousness, in and of itself, is not the soul. Moral self-consciousness is the true human self-realization and constitutes the foundation of the human soul, and the soul is that part of man, which represent the potential survival value of human experience. Moral choice and spiritual attainment, the ability to know God and to be like him, are the characteristic of the soul. The soul of man cannot exist apart from moral thinking and spiritual activity. A stagnant soul is a dying soul. But the soul of man is distinct from the divine spirit which dwells within the mind. The divine spirit arrives simultaneously with the first moral activity of the human mind, and that is the occasion of the birth of the soul.
The saving or losing of the soul has to do with whether or not the moral consciousness attains survival status through eternal alliance with its associates immortal spirit endowment. Salvation is the spiritualization of the self-realization of the moral consciousness, which thereby becomes possessed of survival value. All forms of soul conflict consist in the lack of harmony between the moral, or spiritual, self-consciousness and the purely intellectual self- consciousness.
The human soul when mature, ennobled, and spiritualized, approaches the heavenly status in that it becomes near to being an entity intervening between the material self and the divine spirit. The evolving soul of a human being is difficult of description and more difficult of demonstration because it is not discoverable by the methods of either material investigation or spiritual proving. Material science cannot demonstrate the existence of a soul, neither can pure spirit-testing. Notwithstanding the failure of both material science and spiritual standards to discover the existence of the human soul, every morally conscious mortal knows of the experience of his soul as a real and actual personal experience.”
May 19, 2007 at 1:39 pm
Dear Traveler: brilliant writings, thank you.
#287 Rumors & Lies: “CR is a freakin’ coward, knowing what is going on for years, behind RB’s back calling RB as on a “permanent vacation”
So, what is ‘going on for years’?
Oh, and welcome to the club of ‘Barking Anonymously’, no respect, man..
May 19, 2007 at 2:04 pm
Laughing Love,
Great!!! Already recruiting Hitler? You must feel at home.
You wrote: “Strangely, this person’s comment (”No person, a good choice for a name.”) aligns him/her with Hitler’s theories about the existence of a master race.”
After “Strangely” you also put a comma “,”.
How do you explain that? OH YES, you already have a Comma Theory.
You wrote: “This is an immature insult and is a run-on sentence (comma splice).”
It reminds me of the detailed Nazi theory loaded with “scientific sketches” about typical Jewish noses. The problem was that some of those who developed the theory had similar noses appearing on those sketches.
May 19, 2007 at 5:26 pm
All these lofty angles here!
When I was in the FOF (20 yrs) I had lots of fun and met great people. That lasted about 10 years. The other 10 years was spent questioning and wondering whether decisions made and observations I was making were true. In other words, my mind was very clouded most of the time, so I filled myself up with wine to make myself feel better. It wasn’t unusual for me to have 3 glasses of wine in a 2 hour period of time, but hey, it certainly made the whole thing more palatable.
I have been out of the Fellowship now for 13 years and these are my observations of myself and what I think was and is still going on.
People call Robert a sociopath but I rather like the term spoiled brat. People who turn into sociopaths usually have not worked through many emotions that come up during their lives, and become very narcissistic. Being in the Fellowship was that way for me. I put a lot of learning on hold and just tried to have fun. Working through emotions and becoming a mature emotional responsible adult was put on hold. I think that many people in the Fellowship have and continue to do the same thing to this day, hence becoming spoiled brats themselves.
Imagine after spending 20 years with your family, and one day they say to you: You have been bad. We want you to leave and sorry we cannot have valuable conversations with you any more. Perhaps we’ll see you in the street and nod or even say hello, but that’s it. You’ve been bad and now you’re on your own.
This is one of the many unfortunate behaviors that continues in the Fellowship.
So when I left I began learning how to have mature emotions with other people. This was very humbling to think that I had not even learned this after 20 years but had remained a spoiled brat myself.
I am a very happy person now. It has taken me many years to actually say that and mean it. The Fellowship impedes growth in its members, and one big reason is there is no maturity in its leadership. Only spoiled brats who think that it’s all about them and all about their consciousness. I was one of them. I know. I now take full responsibility for my unconscious actions and open myself up to the truth, that being we are all on our way to becoming fully conscious and understanding why we are here.
Lots of hugs for everyone, including myself.
Probably used spoiled brats too many times but hey let’s call it what it is. Maybe some people would benefit from a little bare bottom smack!
May 19, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Thank you for your support, all who have said such kind things about me. I really appreciate you and especially the value you bring to this wonderful blog which is so healing and helpful.
I looked in the old files and found a letter I sent to all the Board members of the Fellowship in October 1994 which I thought I’d share for what it’s worth. I left the mailmerge fields in.
October 1994
«FirstName» «LastName»
«Address1»
«City», «State» «PostalCode»
Dear «FirstName»,
I am resigning my membership in the Fellowship. Attached is a copy of a letter I sent to Robert. In it I explain my thoughts to him and my recommendations to him.
I would like to share a couple of things with you, too.
Naturally, I recommend to you that you disassociate yourself from the Fellowship. However, I recognize that doing so is a process that takes time, sometimes a long time. For me, I would say it took me twelve years or more to finally take the step. I hope you hear what I am doing and saying with an open mind; that is, I hope you entertain the idea that I may be right. I am just like you. I wanted everything to be true.
As a member of the board of directors for almost 15 years, I know what goes on there. If you intend to continue in your capacity as director, I adjure you to rise up and take responsibility for what is happening in the Fellowship. I think you know Richard Buzbee’s letter is not an aberration; it appears to be the rule. None of the men in Robert’s harem really wants to be there, to my knowledge. And new recruits are added in an elaborate and subtle conspiracy in which they have almost no chance to say no. If you don’t know how it works, check it out. Ask Richard Buzbee. Stop being afraid.
In my current frame of mind I would not have agreed to many of the financial and operational decisions we all “rubber-stamped” in our monthly director’s meetings. The purchases of “art”, the budget for Robert’s endless vacation, the salary for Robert, including his gigantic year-end bonuses, the bogus arrangements for Robert to purchase luxury golf condominiums in Palm Springs and Gray Eagle, just to mention a few, are repellent to me now. I suggest to you that you a.) reacquaint yourself with your conscience and b.) vote your conscience from now on. I don’t mean to sound glib; I say this to encourage you to do what you vaguely feel to be right, but which contradicts the dogma you’ve learned to live with.
Please stand up and take charge — of yourself, of your life, and of the Fellowship if you plan to stay in it. I know you. You are one of of the most decent, intelligent, and well-meaning people I have ever met. You are unfortunately living in a fantasy as far as Robert and the Fellowship are concerned. I lived the same fantasy.
It is possible to escape the fantasy. You only have to want to.
Your friend,
Charles Randall
May 19, 2007 at 6:21 pm
Robert Burton is conscious
Believing this is central to everything. One can ignore reason, personal experience and irrefutable testimony and submit to what one is told is the will of a higher power – if Robert Burton is conscious.
As has been pointed out we are not in a position to verify that Robert Burton is conscious as we are on a lower level than him, just as a monkey is not able to verify that a human can think.
However we can verify that he is not conscious by observing him. If when you look at him you restrain your conditioned positive acceptance of the myth and just observe him as a man, things come into focus that you could not see previously.
For example, a couple of years ago I was at a dinner where I sincerely felt that he was asleep the entire time. I did not set out to see him like this, but that is what I saw. He said the same things as usual, had the same expressions on his face, was surrounded by the usual hypnotic atmosphere but I saw that he was like a spring unwinding. There was an absence of something vital, he was dead in the same way that the people going about their daily life in Marysville are dead.
Of course, this example is only my experience at that time and does not prove anything to anyone else and nor should it prove to me that Robert Burton is permanently asleep.
However, by the same token, my previous verifications that Robert Burton was conscious were equally subjective and such extreme conclusions as that he is permanently conscious should not be drawn from them as they would be equally erroneous.
This is where the religious side of the Fellowship clicks in. This is where we follow a pattern so common in the world and attribute god like status to someone due to the dynamics of the group we belong to. This is where ‘belief for a man number 4 is the result of his verifications’ is an apparently reasonable foundation for believing in the same way as everyone else believes.
It is quite shocking that one should end up worshiping the same old gods after joining a school of 4th way psychology.
May 19, 2007 at 6:23 pm
Appearances can be deceiving.
This is a true story.
For many years I worked as a counselor at a psychiatric half-way house in a big city. The house was an old, four story Victorian mansion that had been donated to the city by a rich woman to help the unfortunate. There was this one patient whom I will call Danny, which is not his real name. He suffered from schizophrenia with some narcissistic personality traits. Danny was a shy, pleasant enough fellow, tall with round glasses. I remember he spoke in that high pitched, “essence voice” like one often hears in the FOF, making him sound child-like even though he was probably in his mid-thirties when I knew him.
But Danny had a dark side. He had his first psychotic break when he was in his early twenties, and managed to hold himself together with minimal use of medications, which he didn’t think he needed. He got by in the milieu of the half-way house, did his chores, made a showing at the nightly group therapy meetings, yet remained aloof from the other patients. He never really shared with anyone the depth of his personal internalized “delusional system”. Some of the counselors suspected he might be ‘cheeking’ his meds, spitting them out later. Danny never seemed to get into trouble, and so we let him be. But sometimes the warning signs are subtle. Parents know this; like when my kids are in their room, and they are just a little too quiet…
Now most of the bedrooms in the half-way house had several beds, and there was one coveted, round single room on the top floor housed in a turret. It had fire escape stairs attached to one of the windows. During his 3 month tenure, Danny had angled his way into staying in that room, claiming that the other patients irritated him; he really wasn’t like “them”. So we let him have his way since he didn’t smoke and wasn’t a trouble maker.
Normally, when the patients leave to go to their respective day treatment programs each weekday, we counselors did room checks to rate tidiness, keeping an eye out for evidence of drug use, smoking, or anything that might be used as a weapon. Danny’s room was always tidy and his bed made. He appeared like the model patient.
But one day, poking his head in Danny’s room, a counselor heard a strange tapping and low moaning noise. After a thorough room search, he could not locate the source of the mysterious sounds. Then he stuck his head out the window with the fire escape. The tapping and moaning sounds were louder. He noticed up in the peak of the roof above the window some of the ornate wood molding had been tampered with. Upon closer inspection he removed a piece of wood and discovered Danny’s dungeon. Inside were six pigeons in pretty bad shape. The counselor pulled them out, one by one. Each pigeon had a coat hanger wired around its wings and their feet were tied together. We rushed them to an animal shelter, and I believe all recovered. Danny was promptly moved into shared room.
Danny admitted later that they were his “friends” and that they had to be “saved” from the harsh world out there. He never revealed how he caught them. Apparently Danny was not alone in his room each night; he’d hold court in his private little “kingdom” with his captive little “friends”.
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 19, 2007 at 6:42 pm
Re: to blog part 9 and probably parts 1-8 as well. With the new operative word “pain body”, it seems obvious how “pain body” is fascinated with itself and is on the lookout for any potential manifestations of other “pain bodies”, to expose them and to discuss them, either in an attitude of righteous indignation or in an attitude of kind and loving instruction to let go already. The blog is a Rorschach blot. But hey so is most of life.
May 19, 2007 at 7:06 pm
“Fellowship of Friends” searches on google would be more likely to be directed to this blog if we all spelled out “Fellowship of Friends” in our posts (rather than using ‘FoF’ or some such).
May 19, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Hello Prior Young Worker (94, 303, 310), I remember you well. It’s good to see your voice added to this blog. You wrote:
“You have abandoned your most valuable human feature: your ability to reason.”
Amen.
It took me a lot longer to leave than you. Hopefully I wasn’t one of those students who gave you the cold shoulder upon your departure, but I do recall a short conversation with you a long time ago.
You said, “He only invites men to the Academy for his own pleasure.” What’s amazing to me now is that I was slightly surprised by that assertion. And yet it wasn’t an assertion at all — just a fact that I wasn’t quite ready to hear. We were in denial. We are in denial. Most of this is scripted to satisfy one man’s need for power and control over weaker individuals, but we don’t want to see that — sort of stating the obvious, but sometimes it’s good to state the obvious.
It’s ironic that O. and G. told us that humans don’t want to wake up because they don’t believe they are asleep. Our inability to “see” what is happening quite obviously right in front of us — whatever our attitudes about Fourth Way ideas may be — is a classic form of sleep.
Best wishes,
Another PYW
May 19, 2007 at 7:45 pm
I have been thinking about integrity.
Integrity – adherence to moral and ethical principles; soundness of moral character; honesty
The 900 lb gorilla in the room is how Robert coerces (coerce – to compel by force, intimidation, or authority, esp. without regard for individual desire or volition) heterosexual followers to have sex with him. The way we tended to rationalize this disturbing behavior in the FOF was by calling the sex consensual, but if something is “compelled” can it still be consensual? And though Robert as far as we know has not used physical force to coerce sex, it is well documented in this Blog and elsewhere that he regularly uses intimidation and his spiritual authority to convince his trusting young students to have sex with him. He makes them an offer they cannot refuse. (Basic reality check: what if it were your own 23-year-old son?)
Back to integrity. In the FOF the words “ethical” and “moral” are usually only found in the same sentence with the word “formatory” (a word that is not in the dictionary BTW), but common sense (the sense common to all centers?) tells us that coercing sex does not reflect adherence to any human “ethical and moral principles” in any culture all the way back to the caveman. Let’s face it, sexual coercion is what animals do, and what men who act like animals do. But in the FOF we are very clever about using our own special language to redefine things, so the bird we see swallowing a worm is not simply that: a bird swallowing a worm. In this instance the bird is eating a whole can of worms and we call it consensual because the worms seem to be wriggling with enjoyment on the way down.
So can we agree that coercing sex from young hetero followers reflects a lack of integrity?
In my experience a lack of integrity in any one area tends to permeate many others as well. Here is where it gets interesting for me, because it explains why so many things have been bothering me for the last few years: why things are the way they are. Some examples…
1. You are waiting in line for a meeting. A woman approaches. She asks for $50 to buy a gift for Robert. You ask if it is mandatory and she says yes. You see a student in front of you raise his eyebrows at this, so you say “no, thanks, I do not have the money today.” Unperturbed, the woman moves to the next student in line, who is visiting from Mexico and obviously has very limited resources. The Mexican student does not understand what the woman is saying, so the woman asks you to translate for her that Robert wants her to donate $50 for a gift. You say in Spanish: she wants $50 but you do not have to do it. The Mexican student thanks you and shakes her head at the woman. Later there is an auction. The tone of the auctioneers reeks of what from your earliest days in the school you were taught to recognize in yourself and others as false personality. One of the auctioneers is the woman from before the meeting. Robert sits in the back of the audience, smiling paternally, proudly. Some people make sly jokes about themselves. You were taught to call this vanity. The cheerleading up front continues. You grimace. Something in you vows: never again.
2. You are at a dinner celebrating your 30th anniversary in the school. Around the table are 80 or so students who joined in American centers in 1976. The theme is an arcane Egyptian festival connected to the number 30. The numerology is mind-numbing. The numbers 30, 7, 6, 12, and possibly 36 and 72 are all given special significance. Numbers divisible or multiple by any of these important numbers are also implied to have special meaning somehow. At one point there is a quotation describing five steps in a process. Robert’s comment on this points out that yet again we can see the number 6 woven into so many examples of ancient wisdom. You grow a little frustrated at this. Photographic images are shown throughout the meal by young men who have seemed to be frowning at you whenever you took a bite of your food. Two of these men were recently caught soliciting ménage-a-trois sex from married women in the community. You have heard that these servers frequently make comments in the kitchen about how much food has been consumed by individual diners, after they remove their plates. You have heard that the photographic images have been photo-shopped to better fit the context of the keys they are meant to illuminate. You see Graylin looking at you warmly but quizzically. People like him are the reason you have always loved this place. How could this beautiful place have changed so horribly. Something in you vows: never again.
3. You just filed your taxes and your FOF donations last year were close to $20,000. Spring donation is due: $750 plus your $1200 monthly. People in other countries pay about $300 per month plus a small seasonal donation, but this has never bothered you because you are proud to be able to support the school that has given you so much. Has made you who you are. You used to live at Isis and commute 120 miles each way to a job down in the valley, but your employer told you this was not acceptable so you were forced to move. You have young children. It is hard to visit Isis and you cannot often afford $100 for a meeting because your teaching payments are usually running late, but this weekend you will make the effort. The meeting is led by Asaf. You notice a strange ritual as Asaf enters the tent. He is a young good-looking man who seems unable to do anything but smile. He walks slowly, solemnly, from his pre-meeting stroll around the fountains. Some older students embrace him as he arrives at the tent. He beams at them with that special inner circle look. They beam back at him with collegial goodwill. They are “keys” specialist. Nevertheless, you stand in the back of the meeting and try to remember yourself by way of keeping an open mind to the knowledge being shared. The talk is focused on the esoteric meaning of “grass.” Many quotes about grass from throughout history. You feel faint but are going to get through this thing. Almost every quote seems to mean the same thing. The king of hearts leads to the steward who fights imagination with the sequence, defeats the devil / lower self, and achieves higher states when the master comes. All is clear, nothing is in doubt or has any alternative interpretation. After the meeting you are relieved to be with some old friends, but careful not to get entangled with certain people. Later you are strolling with your small children around the idyllic lawns and fountains. The kids are laughing and running around, people are smiling and happy. A student approaches you. He photographs your children’s behavior. You were dreading that something like this might happen, again. Previously you have observed this man treating his own children with neglect bordering on abuse. You thank him and move on. Something in you vows: never again.
Is integrity such a big word? We used to say we valued consistency. This meant “being the same person.” Is the school “the same school?” I’m not talking about the form here, but the substance…the level of being. Did I leave the school, or was my teacher the one who left it, years ago? Have we stopped being friends, you who are reading this? Do you think I am lost now? Can you really risk judging my decision, my perceptions? Is this who you wanted to be, who you want to be? Is this the teacher you loved? My personal answer is self-evident.
With love.
Joseph G.
1976-2007
May 19, 2007 at 7:57 pm
To prior young worker (9/310) “I knew Brian S… He was a very gentle person and I saw him wither.”
and More Rumors & Lies (9/317) “Brian S. Many tried to help him in many ways, he was an incurable alcoholic and although was given a task not to drink, simply refused to stop.”
and Whalerider (9/308) to exlax 101 #243 “Would you be willing to tell more details of what you know to be true in the sad circumstances of Brian’s passing? The FOF party line is that he was a “hopeless alcoholic”, which you and I both know is false.”
and especially to you good, good friends still in the Fellowship of Friends
I knew Brian as a sweet, artistic, very vulnerable young man (solar lunar) who became one of RB’s boys. Over time it was clear to all that he was suffering from very serious mental problems (erratic behavior, withdrawal, etc.) and he was diagnosed as a schizophrenic. I don’t know if he was treated by Fellowship of Friends psychiatrists, but RB eventually sent him away from Oregon House.
According to the unfortunate Fellowship of Friends parlance of the time (current members, has this changed?), Brian was ‘a damaged machine’ – and, after all, ‘some come to eat, and some to be eaten.’
Brian landed homeless in Sacramento, where he was attacked one night on K Street, suffering multiple stab wounds. While he was in the hospital in critical condition, his father came from the midwest to take care of him – and RB sent me and another (now ex-)member to meet with him.
We met Mr. S., a good householder type, at the hospital and then went to a coffee shop. Obviously, it was an emotion-filled scene. After a few minutes of pleasantries, Mr. S., asked us ‘You seem like decent fellows; what are you doing being involved in something like this?’
We had no answer, and a deep sense of shame came over me, a feeling that I could never buffer by calling it ‘mechanical goodness’ or ‘feminine dominance’ or ‘the play’ (I believe at that moment my conscience was jolted awake).
Eventually Brian recovered enough for Mr. S. to take him back home to recuperate and to receive psychiatric care. Several months later, he was much better and asked to return to OH, which RB allowed him to do. Fairly soon, it was clear that his mental state began to deteriorate… Perhaps someone else can pick up his sad story here.
By the way, I never saw Brian under the influence of alcohol, and calling him a drunk with moral failings is a vile slander.
As I said in my previous post, over time, I became increasingly troubled by what I saw in RB and the Fellowship of Friends, and I could not buffer how heartless our group had become.
Just one small example that stands out for me were the many times RB would speak about someone who ‘had lost the school’ and then laugh. Each time I heard him laugh I would ask myself ‘how can he think it is funny that someone has been sentenced to eternal damnation? Isn’t that the saddest, most serious tragedy that could ever befall someone?’
I’ll close with a few other questions I struggled with:
Why would RB have sex with a vulnerable and troubled young person?
Why would RB allow someone with serious mental illness into a Fourth Way school?
Why doesn’t RB own up to his own personal mistakes in these matters?
And just one from today:
Why would RB allow his representatives to besmirch sweet Brian’s memory on this blog?
I can still hear Mr. S. – ‘You seem like decent fellows; what are you doing being involved in something like this?’
May 19, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Skeptical Optimist Says:
May 14th, 2007 at 9:15 pm
From meeting over the years with many “Gurdjieffians” in various schools/cults/groups, here is my take on their general views:
• Ouspensky never “got” what Gurdjieff was trying to teach. Although his intellect is admired, he missed the point.
• In Search of the Miraculous is an accurate retelling of Ouspensky’s story, but none of his other books are worth reading, particularly The Fourth Way.
• Ouspensky’s reliance on “self-remembering” proves he did not understand Gurdjieff’s teaching, which was centered in the body.
• The only “workbook” is Beelzebub’s Tales
• People who take any of Gurdjieff’s teachings or stories literally are hopelessly simple and probably cannot do the work.
• Rodney Collin was a weak and diseased mind subject to taking fantasy as reality.
• The only real inheritors of Gurdjieff’s teaching operate within the Gurejiff Foundation.
• All others claiming any connection to Gurdjieff’s work are charlatans, mentally defective, or criminals.
FYI, and thanks for reading.
JoelF
*******************
It appears that one of the reasons Ouspensky left Gurdjieff (according to remarks in ISOTM) was that G. went on a campaign to create a new religion. Rather than a “Fourth Way school” the Gurdjieff tradition (The G. Society, The G. Foundation and so on) is a religion.
May 19, 2007 at 8:59 pm
I am not offended at Hava Nagillah. Or anyone else for this matter. Hey, may be it was a comliment after all? 😉
“No person” reflects how I feel these days – pretty impersonal. Like somehow things don’t bug me the way they used to. They just come and go, and there is no attachment. I say what’s on my mind and soon forget about it. It feels… free, easy, light.
Is “Hava Nagillah” reflects your inner state? Rejoicing with a happy heart? Unfortunately, it doesn’t sound so… But who knows.
In any case I sincerely wish you joy and happy heart, and love towards brothers and sisters, as you name states.
May 19, 2007 at 9:23 pm
Reply to: Skeptical Optimist #113
It appears that one of the reasons Ouspensky left Gurdjieff (according to remarks in ISOTM) was that G. went on a campaign to create a new religion. Rather than a “Fourth Way school” the Gurdjieff tradition (The G. Society, The G. Foundation and so on) is a religion.
GWG
May 19, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Dear Radiccio:
“Could we have less quotes from the Eagles and David Crosby please! One of the clear advantages of the FOF is that I rarely have to listen to bland AOR rock.”
When I got in touch with one of Metallica’s videos (thanks to Unoanimo! and to Sheik giving him a stage!) I was not so pleased with it. Yet, I gave it a try and some words imposed themselves by the truth they carryied.
Metallica… Harder than rock, I belive it is even called Hard Rock!
The words did not come as a statement (better perhaps?) but as a question.
I already quoted these words but I will do again with the hope you will let me know if really you can’t benefit from them as much as you benefit from Plato, Socrates, Walt Whitman, Rilke, and, now the more “à la mode” in the FOF, Hafiz, Rumi, and the “recluse”, among many others…
It only takes 6 words and 7 syllables
(Sorry for this one too much !):
“Can I breath the open air?”
I often look at “us” (me=us) as childreen.
The size and weight of the head in a child is “enormous” compair to the rest of the body mass.
Immediate effect:
Wherever the head goes, the all body goes…
Therefore the fragility of the balance when the standing position is to be discovered!
Therefore the so “cute” walks and fals when the daring goes that far that a certain distance will be coverd…
Parents (I am not one but this should not matter as you will understand), can only tenderly smile, free a bit the road, place an emotional target (usually Mam or Dad’s arms)
and be supportive of the effort it takes to keep balance.
Even some words of Ovid can come to memory
(I am almost certain you like this one Radiccio):
“While other animals face down to earth,
To man he gave a face raised to the skies,
and so the stars he bade him lift his eyes.”
Let me conclude with this vision:
A “putto”
(typical italian representation of a child with exagerated roundness and a torso strong enough to face any “destiny”)
so a “putto” riding a turtle!
Not much should be happening right?
Picture one…
This is a kind invitation which can caress your heart…
Rememeber, through your body, the weight of the head…
Remember, in your all being, what it takes to get “balance”…
Add a turtle and you become HEROIC!
Last thought: make sure you will keep your triumph(s) quite, very quite
(specially if you are the parent and you have dinner with other parents)
because the sounds of triumphant trumpets are unpleasent to common ears…
So far, the FOF could not solve that funest tendency…
Gratitude.
May 19, 2007 at 9:50 pm
How to deal with serous matters:
Gratitude.
May 19, 2007 at 10:40 pm
#287 R &Lies:
I love Charles R as an old dear friend and resent your attack on him. I am sorry for the little hell your comments reveal you inhabit.
#302: Better Late: Thank you for taking the time to post this information. Many others have been there and their shared experiences can be a great help to normalizing the wierdness of leaving.
#274: I often think one great benefit of FoF is having been immunized from fundamentalist thinking. I appreciate your thoughts on RB mindset, I did and do think it strongly reflects a dualistic Christian program many of us carried from childhood.
#310: We were all cheap labor.
(In the course of my 20 years, I believe I earned $6K from Fof — 6 months salary in France — and paid well over $100K in payments).
#279: JF: Very funny! Curious minds…
May 19, 2007 at 10:45 pm
When there is some angry pro fof post there is outrage, but when people try to belittle the fof, applause and congratulation…why is this so? We need less lying on this blog, then there is no need to slam each other.
How about live and let live! Folks, take it easy and Enjoy Life
Stay Wild & Free
May 19, 2007 at 11:16 pm
Would could that be?
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Diagnostic Criteria
A pervasive pattern of grandiosity (in fantasy or behaviour), need for admiration, and lack of empathy, beginning by early adulthood and present in a variety of contexts, as indicated by five (or more) of the following:
1. has a grandiose sense of self-importance (e.g., exaggerates achievements and talents, expects to be recognized as superior without commensurate achievements)
2. is preoccupied with fantasies of unlimited success, power, brilliance, beauty, or ideal love
3. believes that he or she is “special” and unique and can only be understood by, or should associate with, other special or high-status people (or institutions)
4. requires excessive admiration
5. has a sense of entitlement, i.e., unreasonable expectations of especially favorable treatment or automatic compliance with his or her expectations
6. is interpersonally exploitative, i.e., takes advantage of others to achieve his or her own ends
7. lacks empathy: is unwilling to recognize or identify with the feelings and needs of others
8. is often envious of others or believes that others are envious of him or her
9. shows arrogant, haughty behaviors or attitudes
Have a go at it!
A. The Teletubbies?
B. Mother Theresa?
C. Man #7.44??
D. Christ?
May 19, 2007 at 11:55 pm
For the record, CR is one of the wisest, most humane and funniest people I’ve had the pleasure to meet. (Not much of a rock star tho.)
JoelF
May 20, 2007 at 12:08 am
Concerning Post #314/9
Can someone help me to spin this
quote to form a rap song?
___________________________
Love to you all.
May 20, 2007 at 12:50 am
and speaking of lyrics:
I mean no disrespect to anyone at all but this is a bit of worthy leavening.
May 20, 2007 at 1:14 am
Sheik,
Re: google searches being directed to this blog, now that I think a little more about it, perhaps you would consider a global search and replace on all pages for the following:
Replace FoF with Fellowship of Friends
Replace Fellowship with Fellowship of Friends
Replace RB with Robert Burton
Replace Robert with Robert Burton
Replace Burton with Robert Burton
Thanks for your good work!
May 20, 2007 at 1:49 am
From Elena on “Buffers”
Rereading the blog to select some letters, I would like to comment on a few in case others wish to give me relativity or it helps them to see the attitudes we’ve condoned, allowed ourselves to have as legitimate justifications for things that happen in the Fellowship. Lately the question of what it is that doesn’t allow students to see the extent of the damage that the Fellowship does to each person’s integrity is the subject I am more concerned with.
The following letter is sincere and it is good to observe the “attitude” in it. The writer says, “Getting close to Robert and not getting burned was really the test.”
It is an amazing reality in the Fellowship that in the Fellowship it is a legitimate idea, to get “burned”, by the teacher.
“We are free to choose, (to get burned), or pick our own way, (leave).”
What I find delicate is that students are willing to allow that others get burned because they were not approved by the teacher and then allow themselves to burn them a little more. There are no physical deaths in the Fellowship, but this burning people is what 80% of the ex-students are, while those in the inner circle continue to close the grip on the priviledges of their instinctive centre, justified by the conscious being that they well know is a pervert.
another former student Says:
February 3rd, 2007 at 5:45 pm
The Fellowship does have a lot to offer. Inside the Fellowship the older students know very well that getting close to the teacher, which is the natural desire for most of the newer students, was equivalent to “getting close to the fire”. And it is common knowledge that if you get too close to the fire you might get burned. This is the logic that operates with most of the seasoned students. Getting close to Robert and not getting burned was really the test. Most of the students who have been there many years and are having success in their lives and aims have negotiated this difficult phase. It is accomplished in different ways and on different levels of understanding. One may argue that it is not really understanding but self-deception. I argue as a former member that no one but one self can know the difference (as psychologically tricky as this may sound). One should know ahead of time that the Fellowship, or the Fourth way for that matter, is a psychological minefield. We are free to choose or pick our own way.
May 20, 2007 at 3:07 am
Some more history…
After Richard Buzbee (school name, Richard Laurel) distributed his letter telling of his sexual encounter with Burton and how he discovered his son Troy had been having sexual relationship with Burton (beginning when Troy was underage), Burton called quite a few students to ‘try to quell the flames’. Here is one of those conversation, verbatim.
Phone call from Robert Burton to James Battaglia, October 23, 1994
R. Hello James, how’s your liver? Are you feeling well?
J. I’m fine, Robert, and it was a kidney transplant that I had.
R. Yes, that’s right. Are you disturbed by this Richard Buzbee incident? I understand you left the meeting in protest.
J. Let me explain the scenario. I had been standing for an hour and you know my physical condition. It was two minutes to eight o’clock and there were about a hundred cars at the Town Hall. Why do you think I left?
R. To beat the traffic!
J. That’s right. If I was protesting this meeting, I’d do it verbally.
R. I don’t want the meeting to be an arena to discuss my sexual life and I allowed it to happen. C Influence wants me to be a homosexual and have sex with my students so that I may have humility. It’s a beautiful experience for myself and my students. I’m very loving and careful with them. The morality of the ark will not be based on Judeo-Christian principles.
J. What will it be based on?
R. I don’t know yet.
J. I’d like to ask you some questions concerning this matter about Richard. Are you open to that?
R. Yes.
J. Did Richard consent to having sex with you?
R. I’m over fifty and not a strong man. Richard lifted his buttocks up so that I could remove his pants. After we were through, he said that it was beautiful.
J. Had you had sex with him previously?
R. We had laid naked together in the other (Ethan’s) house and I fondled him. My students willingly have sex with me, I don’t force anyone.
J. I’ve talked with Richard myself and I feel that I have a good understanding of his experience.
R. Just remember I am a conscious being and Richard is an unconscious being. Richard is lying through his teeth, and he set me up. Richard is a wolf in sheep’s clothing and I fell for the setup.
J. I’m not conscious and I can’t verify if you are conscious. The system tells me that the lower cannot see the higher.
R. I am the brightest light in two thousand years.
J. I can’t verify that.
R. Have you verified C Influence?
J. Yes.
R. Well, the reason you’re able to do that is because I am a conscious being. Do you remember when I sent the car for you?
J. What do you mean?
R. I have to make about five hundred decisions a week. That I was able to send a car for you to pick you up at the hospital was an act of a conscious being. It’s the little things that matter.
R. Robert, I don’t see how that allows me to verify that you are conscious. Are acts of kindness an indicator of consciousness?
R. You don’t sound like you are coming from the king of hearts, more from your king of clubs.
J. I’m glad you brought up the king of clubs. It seems like you have a big identificiation with things pertaining to the king of clubs. What do you think is the right work of the king of clubs?
R. Gurdjieff says the king of clubs is the beast of the jungle, it protects the machine from harm. It lives in the jungle.
J. Then it seems to me a necessary part to recognize and understand. Yet you have an aversion to king of clubs things like holistic healing, hands-on healing, etcetera.
R. (vague response)
J. Robert, the only thing important to me is to keep my ears and eyes open and try to be in the moment. This moment. Talking to you is the most important thing happening. It helps me see the truth. That’s why I came to this school; I felt it was a bastion of truth. In time, though, I’ve found that most students don’t want to face the truth. Whenever I make an observation, the general response is that I’m being negative or that I’m losing the school. I see fear and feminine dominance as tools to keep students in control, I don’t have any fear of losing the school. I just need to be in the moment and if C Influence takes me out, so be it. Being in the moment is all that’s important to me.
R. That’s not enough.
J. What do you mean, not enough? That’s what you’ve been preaching all these years, self-remembering. What more is there?
R. You have to be concerned with your future.
J. What?!
R. You have to be concerned with YOUR future.
J. I’m concerned with the moment.
R. Remember when you were thrown out of the raft?
J. Yes.
R. C Influence can shake you out of the school just the same.
J. Robert, again let me say all I can do is keep my eyes and ears open and stay in the moment. That’s all that’s important to me. I don’t fear losing the school if I’m bounced out of it.
R. You have to be concerned about your future.
J. I’m only concerned with my present.
R. You have to be concerned about YOUR future (very strong emotional energy coming from Robert). Well, I’m glad that you’re o.k. about this incident. It’s fine to share this conversation with other students.
J. I won’t do that, Robert, because it would influence their thinking on this matter. I would encourage them to speak with Richard and you to form their own opinions. Are you open to them calling you?
R. Yes. Well, there’s a wedding here today and I have things to do.
J. Let’s keep the channels of communication open, Robert, and thanks for calling.
R. Goodbye, dear.
James followed up this conversation with a letter a few days later…
Dear Robert,
I appreciate you calling me and have taken time to digest the experience, and I’d like to offer you my perceptions.
My emotional center registered from your tone that you were very concerned with how I was dealing with what I’ll call the Richard Laurel incident. My action at the meeting of questioning Wayne’s angle and then leaving soon after was the catalyst for your call. I find it interesting that this was reported to you and that you acted so quickly on it. It verifies to me that you are quite active in the process of damage control over this incident with Richard and it makes me question why.
I made thorough notes of our conversation and thought about the emotional content of your voice during it. I feel that you put a lot of energy out to convince me that you are a conscious being, bordering on divinity. “The brightest light in two thousand years”, as you put it. The examples you gave to me for verification, such as my having verified C Influence because you are a conscious being and your sending me to a car to pick me up at the hospital did not penetrate as valid verifications of consciousness. I had verified C Influence before and after being in the Fellowship and I don’t see any connection with your theoretical consciousness. As to you sending a car for me and supplying rides to my doctor’s appointments at my request, I appreciate it greatly and that shows me that you were very considerate of my situation, yet I don’t know they constitute acts of consciousness. Yet I have a pretty good idea of what is not consciousness through self-observation and observing others.
As to our discussion of your sexual preferences and that C Influence wants you to be a homosexual and have sex with your students, this in unverifiable to me. Your sexuality is your business and is not a real issue with me. The issue with me and other students I’ve confided in is the possibility of you using your position as a means to gratify what appears to be a large sexual appetite. I’ve talked with students who have been your partner and their experiences have been as diverse as the individual. Some have said they were pursued quite vigorously until they succumbed, others felt it was a beautiful experience from which they gained tremendously, and others felt they were treated as an instinctive object for pleasure, then discarded. You said that your students willingly are with you and you do not influence them and t his my be true. You do hold a very influential position over many and I’m sure that you realize this does affect a person’s process in responding to you. Years of observation about the type of men you have in your entourage have shown me that they are predominantly very similar in their psychologies and appear to be particularly malleable.
My final concern is that over the years it appears you have many sexual partners and that precautions for sexually transmitted diseases are not taken. I feel this is not responsible action by all parties involved and can lead to dire consequences for you and many others. Have you ever had an AIDS test and have any of your consistent partners been tested? What do you feel is your responsibility and how do you deal with this issue?
My responses and statements to you appeared to make you more defensive of your position until you photographed my as being in the king of clubs rather than the king of hearts. This appears to be a standard response by you that one is becoming instinctive if your authority is questioned. The Fourth Way, as I understand it, is a process of questioning, observing, and verification. One that does not question is asleep, in my opinion. My questioning is a step in the process to find the truth, it does not come from disrespect or judgment.
At the start of our conversation you mentioned that you had just returned from staying at a hotel, I believe it was named after Muir, and that the address was 1998 and you made a reference to the numerical significance. At the teaching dinner I attended in September, you spent a considerable amount of time talking about interpreting license plate, place names and the like. Robert, what relevance does that have towards evolution and why is it such a common topic by you to students? I searched books by Ouspensky, Gurdjieff, Collins and Bennet and have not found any references to predictions. What does this information have to do with the Fourth Way and awakening? To me it appears to feed imagination. I may be wrong, so could you clarify your intent on speaking of these matters? I’d appreciate some relativity.
Robert, I feel the intention of your call was to assure me that everything is fine and as you put it, Richard was lying through his teeth, a wolf in sheep’s clothing, as you stated and you fell for his setup. I don’t know why you made a particularly strong effort to convince me. I’ve been told that one of your roles is to keep students asleep as well as awaken. If this was said by you I feel that you were trying to assure me that all is well and that it’s business as usual. And you realized that I wasn’t buying it. Thus your example of being knocked out of the school felt like a strong warning to me. As I said to you, I’ve never felt as committed to my work and to supporting students as I do now. All I can do is to try to be present to the moment, keep my eyes looking and my ears listening. Trust my conscience and I’ll be shown the truth. The future will unfold as it will and I will accept it as it happens, without fear.
Robert, I appreciate all the opportunities I’ve been given to self observe and try to develop will. For our efforts and all the efforts of all students who have built and are building Renaissance/Apollo I am forever grateful. I know of no other community where I have 1901 teachers and it is something I value highly. My observations to you come from a place of caring, support and concern for what we are building and I know that you can understand and appreciate that. Let’s keep the communications open. Thank you.
With love and friendship,
(signed) James Battaglia
On the 13th November, 1994, James received his reply. He was told to leave the Fellowship, along with five others, including myself.
Historical note: “Wayne” is Wayne Mott, onetime Burton’s personal secretary (can’t remember if he was so at the time). The meeting referred to was led by Steven Dambeck, with Wayne Mott, Gunter Weninger and a couple of others (can’t find my notes right now!) up on the podium. What was notable about this ‘public’ meeting is that these folks started by freely admitting having sexual relations with Burton, and each testified that the experience was helpful for their inner work. Steven then continued the meeting on the lines of morality (with special emphasis on the inapplicability of ‘life’ morality), and steered away from any concerns about abuse of power and so on (refused to accept such questions by asking for others that suited his agenda better). A couple of days later, I responded with a letter to him that photographed him for the sleight of hand and misdirection, which I may post later.
With love to all,
Ames
P.S. Thank you, Siddiq, for answering my questions with sincerity; I appreciate your efforts.
May 20, 2007 at 3:19 am
From Elena
One of the consistent questions that seem to be relevant in this discussion is:
Who is responsible for your suffering in the Fellowship? You, or the Fellowship?
I would say that the Fellowship is responsible for the damage that students suffer by following the ideas that are taught and practiced in the Fellowship.
It is very interesting that when you talk to students they say they do not feel that they have been damaged and this is what I would have said the day before I left a month and a half ago. Today I am beginning to realize much more deeply the areas in which there has been great damage to my integrity.
This are ideas that are new to me, so again, this is just an exploration in which others are welcome to add or detract, but please do so with reasoning, not just by calling me names. If looked at in terms of the three lines of work here are some things that come to mind:
Integrity in the first line
Keeping one’s health. Mentally, emotionally and physically. Brian Sissler’s story sounds one extreme one in which the pressure was too much for him to deal with. Was he really the only responsible one?
It is common knowledge in the FoF, the amount of physical work that is expected of each student on salary. It is my impression that few “buy” into this practice any more and are much depressed into making hardly any effort. The problem here is that both ways it is harmful. If there’s too much effort, because the break downs or chronic fatigue cases come, if there’s little effort because the students are depressed, not stimulated by the school, by Robert, by what they are doing with their lives besides watching Robert live his, the damage to their integrity is expressed in the depression.
The tendency of students in the inner circle to divide into two very distinct personalities, could that be any more damaging? One that tries to live a fairly normal life within his/her home and another one that tries to support the Fellowship at all cost usually resulting in the failure of the first one. Many older students now say they are willing to talk with exstudents and even if their wife leaves they are happy to continue with them. The amazing thing to observe here is that what they are pretending is to have a wife with whom they cannot share the community that they’ve given their life to. This is the division into different personalities that becomes so clear. It is the expression of people whose consciousness has split into different areas and they are trying to survive all of them by splitting their lives also in practical reality. A wife or a husband devoid of space within the community. A first and second line without a third line. An individual, a couple, without a community to live their lives. How much more suffering do you think the Fellowship can continue to promote? But this inner circle men are convinced that this is perfectly legitimate because after all, women are third class citizens in the fellowship so who cares if they throw them out completely as long as they can continue to receive their love and services.
There are many more areas but I would now like to browse at the other two and work on each more later.
Damages to a student’s integrity in the second line.
The damages to the integrity of couples who have to put up with a husband that goes to have sex with Robert regularly.
The lack of spontaneous communication between students who have to consistently pretend they are being intentional by being uptight, stiff and modelling.
The so called “intentionality” that is much closer to the practical expression of the “indoctrination” in which basically student’s have to live under the two mottos:
You’re here to work only on yourself
Don’t express negative emotions.
Which leave no room to question ANYTHING inside the fellowship. In not questioning anything, students are NOT part of the Fellowship no matter how much they pay. If you cannot participate in the decisions you are NOBODY. Getting used to being a nobody damages your integrity.
The abolition of official events that allow for self expression and communication. This is the another extremely damaging practice to me in the Fellowship because it slowly renders students into a state of self denial in which they do not think themselves worthy of expressing themselves and participating in the life of the School in any other way than the established curriculum in which they always have to be listening to the teacher, Girard or other inner circle students with their researched quotes, making you believe that if they have accepted to live like Robots or Roberts you should also be able to accept it. If you cannot feel free to participate fully with all your being how can you expect to be present with all your being when you are having to deny 70% of it?
There are many more in this line but let’s move on.
Damages to a student’s integrity in the third line:
As I am conceiving consciousness in the third line, it is the capacity to assume responsibility for the community you live in. Not just yourself but everybody and everything in it.
I was hurt when students were kicked out and I did not know. They were human beings that no matter whether we had become close friends or not, they had become people that mattered to me and I have an emptiness in myself about many people who I do not know where or why they went.
When Joseph Monteleone died on his own in his room from a stomach ache that got severe enough, I was appalled by the fact that he had had such a miserable play that at that point he had no one to call for help.
All the young men in Robert’s circle are my responsibility. I am convinced that no matter how opportunistic they may be, it is the responsibility of the more mature people in any community, to not allow for a situation in which younger men are used by Robert, to not allow people to be exploited economically making them believe this is a conscious school when it is a money making business for Robert and a few students. The individual efforts work everywhere, not only in the Fellowship, it is the Fellowship as a school or a community that doesn’t work.
A Community is a big thing and being damaged in one’s sense of community is being damaged in one’s hopes and dreams for humanity, in one’s consciousness. One might not live eternally but one lives eternally in one’s kind, one lives in what one has left the subsequent generations. Each one of us might sew only a thread in the carpet of humanity but being denied to sew that thread and not only that, being stimulated to destroy threads that were already struggled for and achieved is damaging to the soul. The soul that is common to all of us. The real I.
A community is the arena in which each man presents himself. If there is no community to be present to, there is no presence worth its name. Each man and woman must be able to present her/his work to his community because it is in that continued dialogue that the spirit of a man, a woman and mankind, can evolve.
May 20, 2007 at 3:45 am
LIttle ones – you invest far too much time on these trivial matters. Our school is quickening and it is only those who understand Influence C’s direction who will enjoy the rapids of freedom. One must be vigilant and deny the diversions along the marvelous way of men number four.
If one is to attain the rightful state of consciousness their fate permits, they must abandon wandering amongst those saturated with sleep.
Be gone from this site and return to your glorious destiny.
I must once again remind all readers (with a big grin on my face) that this comment could have been written by anyone. — ES
May 20, 2007 at 4:09 am
Dear fellow current members posting on this blog:
Please refrain from the unrestrained expression of anger, judgment and sarcasm. It does absolutely nothing positive for you as a person and greatly, in my view, diminishes the School—those who post, do represent the FOF whether you want to or not–so take responsibility.
We are all here by the grace of something we cannot fathom, and know not if we will be ever allowed to reach our aims, whatever they may be.
Taking an example of RB mentioned here, by James B., I too for many years questioned why RB allowed himself to express negativity about former members, but I am extremely grateful that this ended some years ago, and there is no longer that condemning judgment–when you think about it, there simply is no time for it if you want to truly awaken. Same for all former members, we are all pretty much alike, nobody would like to trade places with anyone else, clearly—so why not make this blogging something, if you were ever to look at it again, a meaningful expression.
Best to all…and thanks to all
Siddiq
May 20, 2007 at 4:19 am
To Hava Nagillah (316)
Your responses to my comments (Laughing Love 300) make no sense whatsoever.
They do not address the issues.
Again, become conscious or remain present as you respond.
The complete lack of understanding about my comments is odd.
Your written expression continues to belie fragmentation.
I wish you & everyone well.
LL
May 20, 2007 at 4:44 am
If I may, I would like to introduce everyone to Isis.
Go to Google Earth and type in the following:
12585 Rices Crossing Rd., PO Box 1000, Oregon House, CA 95962
Just to the left of W121 15 9 is the gate house. Travel up that road to the first roundabout take a right (South) and you get to Galleria (R’s house) (Between N39 19 41 and N39 19 39). It is surrounded by Gardens. The white lines are crushed stone paths. Tons of palm trees and Roses. East between N39 19 41 and N 39 19 39 is the Theatron. A large marble structure that replicates a greek theatre.
Heading back north until the top of the hill you can find the Apollo D’oro. A restaraunt and meeting place for students (formerly called the lodge).
If you focus on the lodge you can see a yellow blob. This is a beautiful outdoor dining area that students frequent.
The winery is located at N 39 19 39 and W 121 14 33
All the hills around are terraced for the vineyard.
There is alot more, but I am not going to tell. Former and current FOF’s should have fun with this.
May 20, 2007 at 5:40 am
Dear Joseph, James B. and Ames – thank you very much for your posts.
More history and more truth is needed, indeed. I wish everyone who has a story to tell posts it here.
We can olny fight lies by telling the truth. Fellowship of Friends thrives on lies, manipulation and fear.
May 20, 2007 at 5:42 am
For those who may wish to investigate, for their own self-exploration, here is a link:
Risk Factors in Abusive Relationships:
Certain personality traits predispose people to abusive relationships. The following lists are typical characteristics of both parties in abusive relationships.
The URL: http://www.recovery-man.com/abusive/abuse_rel_types.htm
Namaste.
May 20, 2007 at 6:02 am
In the FoF we were asked not to express negative emotions. I, we, failed miserably in this. While we could stop some outbursts of negativity we had a lot of what my best friend has called, ”Negativity with a smile.”
I believe we failed because we were not able to transform negativity. We would simply go from being negative to being neutral, we would never travel the pendulum swing to compassion.
We were given the tools; knowledge of body types, centers of gravity, yet I never used them to understand others. Sure, I used them for myself to pick out the fastest cashier in the grocery store, yet did I ever use them to truly understand others? When a Lunar type was doing something slower than myself, or the Mercury when they were in constant movement when I was at rest, or the Martial wanting to just do something. Most of the time my reaction was a desultory photograph, in my head, of “What a Luner….” . I thought that helped, yet, it didn’t get me anywhere.
What did get me somewhere was in the study of Buddhism. I realized that what the Buddhists were doing in trying to lead a compassionate life, was the transformation of negative emotions.
I’m not saying that we need to study Buddhism, we had the tools in the Fellowship and still have them now, we just need to use them. A famous Buddhist monk once said, “Mindfulness must be engaged.”
May 20, 2007 at 7:15 am
Joseph and integrity – you didn’t stay until 2007 did you? And Steve Dambeck succombed to Robert Burton too? He was leading a meeting? I can see that, but it is dispicable that he would defend Robert’s manipulations. Steven is a smart guy and he has made a deal with the devil; abandoning his integrity. Did you all? What is up you guys?
And Sandra, Joel, Elena, James, Charles, and even Ames: if you knew this was going on, how can you imagine that we want to hear your insights now? Joel is analyzing O and RC? Please.
You think Charles is a great guy because he finally couldn’t take it. 15 years is too long. Maybe something besides your integrity motivated you. Even a pig gets full. You are known by your acts. People change and can be forgiven and their respect renewed. But they should humble themselves first. How about an apology?
Robert Burton never approached me, but evidently my friends allowed themselves to be manipulated by him. Grayson. Are you still there? I thought I knew you. We were about 20 then I think. You worked in the dining room and I wished I did because it was clean and cool. You always dressed so nicely and you were so polite. What has become of you?
I wish I could remember all your names and call you out – I would want to awaken you to realize your wasteful use of your energy and creativity. You are better than that.
Everyone – tomorrow is too late to begin rediscovering your integrity. If you are in, get out. If you were in and accepted the criminal behavior – apologize and stop giving angles about consciousness.
Colin and Linda and so many others whose names I won’t take the time to remember- I can’t imagine how you rationalize your lives.
May 20, 2007 at 9:23 am
In Reply to Joseph G., Ames and James B.
In reply to Post #324;
Thank you Joseph for constantly, like a mantra, referring back and forth to the word ‘integrity’ throughout your post…
This ‘form’ of referencing such a word is what I sense, that which becomes your ‘reconciling’ factor.
Somewhere in the storm we can either catch pneumonia to spite the storm’s ill timing or push the ‘up’ button and let the umbrella loose.
To me, rain or friction, is certainly not something to shield oneself from when the aim is to transform it with deep looking, so the umbrella is not meant to be ‘milked’ for being an unconscious metaphor for a buffer or an escapist utensil.
I sense, that for you, you were looking for something to measure all these contradictions beside, not necessarily ‘against’.
Integrity is an incredible ‘gauge’, its deeply connected to your conscious-individuality. Again, I thank you for sharing its ‘sunlight’ with myself and all to partake of.
Somewhere in our invisible being, certain ‘measurements of integrity’, as I see it, must inevitably begin to be not so much from a thinking standpoint, i.e., substantiated by subjective mental proofs, that since a contradiction exists, something must be wrong.
Rather, it is another ‘gut sensation’, though I must admit, it takes more than a few of these ‘ticklings’ of the solar plexus to gather together a consensus from one’s being concerning the exactness of what one is perceiving while pursuing one’s personal interests, one’s feelings of how things add up, particularly when oneself is still trying to count to ten along the way to eleven…
Yet it occurs doesn’t it? One arrives at stage 11, there’s no door, one hears lots going on in there, wonders a bit and moves on, for something very deep and quiet has finished with stage rehearsals.
Yes folks, stage 11 is missing from Post #302/9.
So much talk and very little that’s gets to “breath the fresh air” outside the box.
The Mental Arena, personal justifications for spreading untransformed negativity, resulting by comparing an ideal with accidentally occurring subjective circumstances and personal feature-pursuits, which eventually result in mini-RB’s running around everywhere in one’s work, keying, omening, pointing the father-finger towards C-Influence at every practical event in the school’s ‘play’ and the individual’s as well, making it holy-symbolic before it has a chance to be keyed as having conscious integrity, conscious, practical relativity in the now…
This will be one of the last and most enduring tasks of the Fellowship of Friends student, before the captain pulls the string on the one man, inflatable raft labeled “I was never the captain, C-Influence was.” as the ark sinks on the first day of the flood; to locate conscious-integrity in each and every stage of the FoF’s growth,
not to mention one’s own presumptuousness mind over ruling the senses of conscience and presence-mood applied to certain ‘kinds’ of hydrogen-impressions.
I say, cut this ‘ancient’ tree down before it goes to seed. Yet, such fairy tale task profundities never work, for there are attitudes and beliefs already planted in the psyches of so many and the FoF is only a little snowball on the tip of hundreds of such icebergs floating around the land and seas of earth.
~
As I see it, many FoF students have come full circle with their essence pursuits, repetition is challenging their deeper level of being to find substance of attention, not subjects of attention.
What was once ‘novel’ is ‘familiar’, what was once gold-gilded affirmation is now ‘personal-plastic’.
The FoF teacher is simply not yet substantial enough a being to wear all the numerous affirmative clothes that have been ‘hung out to dry’ by his own student’s blossoming being…
Eventually, as soon as enough ‘what goes around comes around’-circles accumulate, slave chains begin to form, small collars for the neck, large collars for the oak trees shading the kennel.
Hence, by now, through the simple default of passing time, the students are equating their level of being with RB, this is normal in a spiritual school and all real teachers are always (and I do mean always) ready for this ‘integrity check’.
The student’s contradictions are most likely not as successfully equipped with unlimited power of avoidance as RB seems to weld, so where RB walks a thick, tightly stretched fishing line over the Pit of Affirmation, students are falling in.
See, even the practical-umbrella can be used for ‘balancing acts’.
If its all a ‘play’, a play that the FoF has meticulously mapped out for 35+ years in royal lunatic fashion, then how is it that there’s no map for getting off the stage?
As I am reading this blog and know the FoF, what I sense is an endless investment in importance, through no transformation of contradictions or assistance to that which reveals the drama of the pain body as something illusory and worthy of making transparent, graduate-able from,
rather, it’s turned into a symbolic superstition, something to stay away from, yet, the irony of it is ~
that it is the pain body who makes it a point, a ‘spiritual’ hobby to flee from its own shadow, saying,
the devil made me do it or its a test from the gods, I failed, therefore I must take the test over and over again, this is a task for my students, to endure that I must fail in that which they must conquer in order to escape…
Whew! Where is that tuna can factory anyway and who is it that keeps weaving those ridiculously over sized care-baskets?
An endless investment in impressions, though no mirrors. An endless investment in RB, though no students, only tenured supporters of the dean.
Certainly students would not allow themselves to remain in an evolving, practical forth way school while being under the heading ‘tenured’, particularly after having the pang of conscience in finding out that they themselves have unconsciously signed their autograph on the tenure agreement in lieu of the dean’s stamp?
That stamp dried out before the school started, when a lie was accepted as ‘OK’ by one person, this created the triad-magnet for the next and the next.
This is not to say that ‘you asked for it’;
yet, who is to say, that the past was not exactly what you particularly needed, after all, its moot… Especially when the FoF past is revealed as being something far broader, far more, let us say, ‘hidden’ than your level of being was able to intuit or even ‘dig for’.
What one can do is add to the information, the wisdom surrounding the conscious-lighthouse that protects such spiritual seekers from such ‘reefs’, yet, whose to say they won’t be parachuting in?
We send out our conscious love intent, this is all a real conscious being can do. The rest is left up to a mystery, far too great for us to beg to differ with. Something in us ‘thinks’ that yesterday and tomorrow are ‘eter’ and ‘nity’…
Yet, is it not how we receive the Now, now, is this not eternity? What do we do now, is not everyday equipped with the same ingredients as all the others, is it not the cook whose changed, not the menu?
______________________________________
BTW, many on this blog seem to demoralize one another for giving quick, all encompassing photographs by using short, old school, true personality phrases, often pigeon-holing one’s ‘phrase’ as something too close to what RB would say and whee, into the RB pigeon hole it goes.
I find this ‘vehicle’ of measure and comparison of one’s ‘phrasing of a photograph or observation’ to be very odd and possibly spiritually constipating for the user.
It is far too easy for the drama-shopper to slide every possible ‘love concern’ another has for its ‘other’ over to a category relating to ‘RB’s ‘love’ concern for his interests’, i.e., giving profound, paternal, one or two word observations in order to strengthen his saturnine ease at spinning and dizzying his satellites with his informational, Narcissistically attracting, C-Influence salesman ‘mass’.
I ask you all, was there not a time when a short, sweet, unsupported with intellectual justifications and subjective comparisons of the good and bad student handbooks, photograph, simply stood as a profound, awe inspiring ‘real’ crystal ball into oneself, one’s truer sense of self once turned inwards by a friend’s love of being present to that which was not ‘the now-you’?
Is it not simply the proximity of this blog to the antagonist subject of RB, that a real observation from the utter depth of one’s love for another ‘worker’, which casts a ‘shadow of doubt’ of its intent?
For the pain body, more imagined RB look-alikes, the better.
Wear no mirrors, carry Medusa’s head in case they start swarming.
Love to you Joseph G.
__________________________________________
In Reply to Post #339/9
Hello Ames:
An addendum to that meeting you posted details of taking place in the town hall.
S.D. also stated therein that his sexual experience with the teacher was very painful (emotionally)
….. long pause as the students gasped in awe …..
(now for the traditional, subjective, King of Hearts buffer memorandum)….
“Robert would like to keep the illusion that he has a private life. That these sexual experiences are tests for his students, some pass, some fail.”
Wow, there must be a towering step-pyramid of rain checks concerning that test by now, for certainly he meant a test for every student.
For such an ultimate test would be for the ultimate student and as conscious-love knows, all students are ultimate participators in building a real teacher.
______________________________________
To James B. (In Reply to Post#325/9)
You wrote and quoted ~
“We met Mr. S., a good householder type, at the hospital and then went to a coffee shop. Obviously, it was an emotion-filled scene. After a few minutes of pleasantries, Mr. S., asked us ‘You seem like decent fellows; what are you doing being involved in something like this?’
We had no answer, and a deep sense of shame came over me, a feeling that I could never buffer by calling it ‘mechanical goodness’ or ‘feminine dominance’ or ‘the play’ (I believe at that moment my conscience was jolted awake).”
___________________________________
It’s posts like this that keep the wings glowing with offering.
I would guess that it took a ‘real father figure’ in this instance and circumstance to awaken conscious conscience after all, not the father-affirmative RB, whose compromises are better termed ‘personal favoritism towards personal inertia’.
In the face of pain body reception of denying force, all is either ‘transformed’ by that denying force’s ‘force’ weakened by kneeling to the stronger pain body’s pain-strength or threat of pain thereof or thereafter
or the equal pain body or conscious being is gotten rid of, seen as either a competitor of ‘The Aim’ or un-dominate-able in converting a strong conscious individual into a worshiper.
Consciousness does not have a back door or a bouncer; what can possibly threaten the state of presence, unless you’re 🙂 mistaking inner considering for something higher.
what this FoF needs is a Spiritual Annihilator…
Shams was considered one to Rumi.
All this nonsense is being transformed nonetheless right here. The denying force that this FoF ‘play’ has created in other ‘playing fields’ is being cleaned up, bases are loaded, batters are being interviewed,
umpires are getting prepared to be present to their argumentative ritual, pitcher?
Love to you James B., for drinking coffee with a regular and being open enough to hear the voice of god in between sips.
God has no favorites, for the earth cannot have a favorite god.
_____________________________________
Love to you all.
May 20, 2007 at 9:47 am
The practical relationship between Higher Centers and the King of Clubs.
The next time you hear the word ‘Faith’ recall this practical being’s name ~
Key please.
Love to you all.
May 20, 2007 at 9:53 am
Any similarities to any living persons are purely accidental!
Marshall Applewhite was a homosexual schoolteacher, who was fired after having an affair with a student. Applegate was looking for a cure for his homosexual impulses. Together with seven other members of the cult, Applegate was surgically castrated leading one to believe that he finally took care of those “bothersome instincts.” During his classes students were ask to always look at him. According to himself he was like Christ. A prophetic teacher with non-identified students.
The rabbit hole is deeper than you think
Here another man almost on the level of Christ, according to himself.
Jones was arrested and charged with soliciting a man for sex in a movie theater bathroom known for homosexual activity in 1973.
May 20, 2007 at 10:58 am
Charles:
Actually, I remember you to have been a nice fellow. I read your letter and I’ve extracted a portion:
In my current frame of mind I would not have agreed to many of the financial and operational decisions we all “rubber-stamped” in our monthly director’s meetings. The purchases of “art”, the budget for Robert’s endless vacation, the salary for Robert, including his gigantic year-end bonuses, the bogus arrangements for Robert to purchase luxury golf condominiums in Palm Springs and Gray Eagle, just to mention a few, are repellent to me now.
It’s not Robert that keeps the things going. It is the ‘Yes People’ under him that keep the gears greased, the Charles’, the Joel’s, the members of the board and others. What the hell was the matter with you people? You were the people that were supposed to be looking out for peoples’ welfare. And then you say it took you a decade to figure it out. Sounds a bit like the Nazis in WW2. Yes, people want to hug you and let you know wonderful it is that you’ve come clean. The fact of the matter is that you should be in prison.
May 20, 2007 at 11:47 am
Elena,
You joined Robert Burton’s school some X years ago.
Lately you came to a decision that this school does not comply with what you want and you left.
I can assume that some portion of the so called negative information and disinformation about the school and about Robert Burton has been known to you for years. Still you stayed for so long helped others to stay.
You are expressing ideas about having a helthy (maybe idal) community as a way of life.
Personally I never grasped Isis as a community and I think it has never been a community.
The School has always been for me a monastery, mainly internal monastery. The externals might have some characteristics of a community, but it is just an illusion. This school is a monastery.
What you are doing now is in fact addressing monks in a monastery and telling them to leave it and move out. And why? Because you don’t like it anymore.
I think you act only according to what is emotionally comfortable to you. You feel compassionate towards those “poor students” who are “captured” in this “evil school.”
But you do not respect someone like me, for example. I am happy to be in this school and I am bothered by those who are turning against what is so precious to me.
Your compassion is selective. You left the school? Fine! Now leave me alone, I do not need, and I do not want your salvation crusade.
May 20, 2007 at 1:03 pm
Hello.
My assumed name is Simon. I began posting near the inception of this blog (page 1). In fact I stumbled across this forum by chance, as I searched for a former close friend who I heard had recently left the Fellowship of Friends. I found him eventually via the blog (thank you for that Sheik) plus another friend in the bargain. Though I continued to post for a time as Simon and then for a while longer under another alias, I felt my posts were becoming very cynical and sarcastic in tune – largely in response to the plethora of irrational and immature posts that were being placed by those who I can only assume were current students defending their corner. (I understand this behaviour – I did it too at one time.)
As a result I stopped posting, though have continued to read the forum with mixed emotions – at least that’s what it has evoked in me. Meanwhile I continue to communicate with my lost “friends” and it is a result of these exchanges that I’ve been prompted to add the following:
******
Hi C,
As mentioned on the blog, the frightening part is that no matter what is stated in regards to Robert’s excesses, it doesn’t seem to shock me either. He conducts himself above the law in the spirit of: “do as I say, not what I do”. The law I am referring to here is the law of humanity and it the flaunting of this law which was probably the most painful part of the Fellowship Of Friends experience. Not the sex, the drunkenness, the misogyny – all of which I found distasteful and like many was willing to put up with for far too long. But what really swayed it for me was the utter lack of humanity this unnatural lifestyle finally induced. In the Fellowship Of Friends we become for the most part dehumanised. Why do I know this? I didn’t until I left. But one only has to read half a dozen of the posts on this forum to be able to differentiate between what I would regard as a “human” comment and one that is void of what I call soul. Of course what we deem as human behaviour might be interpreted differently depending on circumstances, though I don’t think anyone would argue that it involves what we know as the three lines of work to a greater or lesser extent. However, in order to undertake these lines in their truest sense, one has to have a conscience which is functioning properly – that is, for the most part is free from delusion (Ego with a big “E”) and all that this implies: a willingness to listen to others, show a modicum of humility, refrain from unjustifed and venomous criticism of fellow souls etc. etc.
When I read some of the stories on this blog, it evokes all the memories of the sordidness which many of us including myself were happy to brush under the carpet for so many years. Having been a party to Burton’s excesses and dare I say “victim” – I say this with hesitation as I know some of you out there feel the need to question if it was as one sided as many of us make out. I myself know where the power lay / lied! Irrespective of this, one cannot deny that on this blog we have merely touched a large tip of the iceberg. During my time, I was in a position to talk to several young lads who were subject to Robert’s advances and as a result became very confused. (Some may remember young C. the Brazilian lad who went through a trial by fire as he struggled with his moral conscience, or H. the gardener with whom I travelled around Italy and who one night poured out his heart and all the contradictions which Robert’s actions evoked in him. Then there was J. who almost died after breaking his neck and who I would visit quite regularly in hospital and whose main concern was not the x-rays of his body, but getting an aids test. These are just a three instances of many.
In the beginning I too tried to justify Robert’s actions to others – I had to – if only to convince myself that what I was supporting was useful to my evolution and my existence within the FOF. However later, as I began to wake up the dangerous game Robert (and myself) was playing, I was less willing to tag along. On the contrary, I began to resist at first and finally rebel, which didn’t amuse Robert. You don’t joke with Robert unless he gives you permission.
My own story concluded in a major stand off with Burton after I refused his will / sexual advances one more time. It’s only when you catch him at a moment when he doesn’t get his way, you begin to see the true colours of this man. The coldness behind the “conscious” persona (the mask of presence he puts on before the students at his dinners and meetings and public appearances). I will never forget that look in his eye – the momentary glimpse of contempt (it’s the only way I can describe it) of someone who is not getting his way (someone who is used to getting his way all the time!) and realising that his power is being undermined. Then the subsequent stratagems he employs to try and work you round to his way of thinking. The offer of gifts is an obvious one, but if that doesn’t work, the subtle nudges from feminine dominance, reminding you that he is your teacher and should be obeyed. Finally there are threats he invokes using the weaponry of higher forces, and that by going against the will of the teacher there is a serious risk of terminating any possibilities of becoming conscious and endangering your soul in the process.
Though by this time I had seen through this facade and nothing could change my overwhelming desire to escape the oppression / depression that was overcoming me, it was a heavy trip all the same. That said, the more he ranted (yes, Robert does rant!) the more I knew I was correct in my actions and I believe something in him probably knew it too, because after that episode his attitude toward me consisted of either token efforts of reconciliation, or mild threats to remind me that by abandoning him / the school the only option I had was life (death) / food for the moon and all that detritus we were so willing to accept. In a word, anything to make you feel small, insignificant, helpless and fearful. It worked, for upon leaving the Fellowship Of Friends shortly after, it resulted in many years of extreme low self-self esteem, doubt and fear.
Postscript:
This is just part of my story and I’m sure there are many similar in nature. But the question which continues to intrigue me is: what is it that draws us to a place like the Fellowship Of Friends, which on hindsight is so obviously a cult? More than that, what duped us into remaining for so long – in some cases half our natural life time. Okay, Burton is the charismatic instigator and figurehead behind the Fellowship Of Friends, but he is like many leaders throughout history who have presided over some morally dubious and corrupt regimes. Such groups are made up of people, so there is a continuing collusion between its members to ensure its existence. Often this is done “voluntarily”. Being a member of the Fellowship Of Friends is something all of us here share in common, except the Sheik and possibly one or two posters who ended up here by accident, so in a way we each shoulder a portion of the responsibility, I suppose. At least we must always ask, when pointing the finger of blame, what part we played in this. Only then perhaps can we help others.
*******
Finally, I though I vowed (so much for vows) that I would not contribute to this blog again unless it was under my real name. I feel I now have said all I can under an assumed name. Even though I have the utmost respect for those who have the courage to do use their real names, I could not have said what I have here had I used mine.
That said I am willing to post an e-mail address should anyone feel they would like to ask me about anything I’ve said. The only condition is that I ask that you reveal who you are, just as I will do the same (I promise to keep true identities confidential.) I do not have the time for the likes of the cold, impersonal reasoning of H Carter, or the vitriolic rants of Rumours & Lies.
In the meantime let us celebrate our freedom,
Simon
borne2357@yahoo.ca
May 20, 2007 at 1:28 pm
#325
“Just one small example that stands out for me were the many times RB would speak about someone who ‘had lost the school’ and then laugh.”
Hello James B,
I have a funny memory of you and your white dog “Presto” always dirty with red soil of Apollo coming into the office.
Regarding to what you said, and the number of students leaving, I don’t think Robert is still laughing.
May 20, 2007 at 1:36 pm
DEAR FRIENDS IN “SEARCH OR THE MIRACULOUS”
I’VE BEEN READING THE BLOG FOR THE LAST FEW WEEKS AND I FIND IT VERY INSPIRATIONAL (EVEN THE WEIRD POSTINGS HELP ME GAIN SOME UNDERSTANDING). I’D LIKE TO THANK ALL OF YOU (IN AND OUT OF FOF) FOR YOUR CONTRIBUTIONS; SPECIALLY THE SHEIK FOR HIS VALUABLE SUPPORT. I SPENT OVER A DECADE IN THE FOF UNTIL I WAS KICKED OUT A FEW YEARS AGO.
BECAUSE OF THE IDEA THAT “AN UNEXAMINED LIFE IS NOT WORTH LIVING,” SINCE THEN I’VE BEEN TRYING TO FIGURE OUT, LIKE MOST OF YOU, WHAT THE HELL HAPPENED TO ME IN ALL THOSE YEARS. AFTER REGAINING SOME EMOTIONAL STABILITY, I TRIED TO FOLLOW OUSPENSKY’S SOUND ADVICE AFTER HE ANNOUNCED THAT HE WOULD ABANDON THE SYSTEM, MEANING “EVERYONE HAS TO RECONSTRUCT EVERYTHING BY HIMSELF”. IN DOING SO, AND FOR THE SAKE OF SOME MENTAL CLARITY, I THOUGHT IT PRACTICAL TO SEPARATE THE SYSTEM, THE SCHOOL AND THE TEACHER. IT IS ABOUT THE TEACHER THAT I’D LIKE TO SHARE SOME THOUGHTS WITH YOU TODAY. MY QUESTIONS WERE NO DIFFERENT FROM WHAT HAS BEEN EXPRESSED HERE SO FAR. IS HE A REAL TEACHER? IS HE REALLY CONSCIOUS? IS HE A “NORMAL” GUY OR JUST A CLEVER PSYCHOPATH? I PRETTY MUCH AGREE WITH THE NOTION OF PATHOLOGICAL NARCISSISM, ALTHOUGH IT LOOKS A BIT INCOMPLETE. I TRIED TO PUT TOGETHER SOME INFORMATION ON THE SUBJECT AND I FOUND THAT THE CONCEPT OF PSYCHOPATHIC PERSONALITY (OF WHICH NARCISSISM IS ONE MANIFESTATION), IN MY OPINION, DEPICTS HIS BEHAVIOR VERY ACCURATELY. ONE OF THE DESCRIPTIONS THAT QUICKLY CAUGHT MY ATTENTION WAS: HE WILL SAY ANYTHING THE OTHER PERSON NEEDS TO HEAR IN ORDER TO MOVE FROM POINT A TO POINT B. THIS SEEMS TO CORRESPOND EXACTLY WITH THE POSTINGS OF JOELF (“BY TELLING ME THAT I WOULD BE THE NEXT CONSCIOUS BEING AFTER MB, HE DELAYED MY DEPARTURE BY 10 YEARS”), SANDRA C (“I THINK OF THIS AS AN EXAMPLE OF HIS ABILITY TO READ PEOPLE. BECAUSE FOR ME THESE WERE THE MAGIC WORDS”) AND I THINK WHALERIDER MENTIONS SOMETHING ALSO, LIKE EVERYTHING WOULD BELONG TO HIM (SORRY IF THESE ARE NOT THE EXACT WORDS BUT I BELIEVE THE MEANING IS THE SAME). I WONDER WHAT HE MIGHT HAVE TOLD TO HIS “INCONDITIONALS” THAT THEY BEHAVE THE WAY THEY DO…. ALSO THE DESCRIPTION OF THE SEXUALITY IN THIS CONDITION SEEMS TO APPLY VERY ACCURATELY TO THE POSTINGS BY STUDENTS WHO “VERIFIED” IT. PREDATORY SEX, PROMISCUITY, LACK OF EMOTIONAL EVOLVEMENT, INCAPACITY TO DEVELOP A HEALTHY, LOVING AND LASTING RELATIONSHIP, ETC. I FOUND BONITA’S POSTING VERY HELPFUL, PARTICULARLY BECAUSE THE EXPERIENCE DATES FROM SO LONG AGO. SPECIAL THANKS FOR THOSE SINCERE POSTINGS! OTHER EXPRESSIONS THAT DESCRIBE THE PICTURE ARE: IRRESPONSIBILITY, INSINCERITY, UNRELIABILITY, IMPULSIVENESS, FEARLESSNESS, THE ABILITY OF FAKING NOBLE HUMAN QUALITIES, CHARMING, VERY MANIPULATIVE, CAPABLE OF INSPIRING LOVE IN SOMETIMES FANATICAL DEGREE IN OTHERS, USES HIS ABILITY WITH WORDS TO TALK HIS WAY OUT OF TROUBLE, UNABLE TO FEEL SORRY FOR OTHERS, LACK OF EMPATHY, VALUING OTHERS ONLY FOR THE ENHANCEMENT OF HIS OWN PLEASURE OR STATUS, COMPLETELY EGOCENTRIC, THEY OFTEN PASS LIE DETECTOR TESTS. WHILE THE PSYCHOPATH IS CHARMING AND MAKES FRIENDS EASILY, THOSE WHO COME TO RELY UPON HIM SOON PAINFULLY FIND OUT THAT HE HAS NO SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY. CONTINUALLY PROMISES ARE MADE AND BROKEN WITHOUT REGARD FOR THE GRAVITY OF THE CONSEQUENCES, FOR WHICH THE PSYCHOPATH WILL THEN DENY RESPONSIBILITY. HE CAN SOLEMNLY LIE WHILE LOOKING THE VICTIM IN THE EYE, SHOWING NO ANXIETY WHATEVER. THEIR WAY OF DEALING WITH MONEY IS OFTEN IRRESPONSIBLE AND CHAOTIC. THE LIST OF THE “AMENITIES” GOES ON AND ON, BUT I THINK YOU ALREADY HAVE AN IDEA. FOR THE SAKE OF RELATIVITY, THE DEMOGRAPHICS SHOW AN INCIDENCE OF AS HIGH AS 3 PERCENT AMONG THE GENERAL POPULATION (WHICH SEEMS TO BE AN UNDERESTIMATION DUE TO HEAVILY RELYING ON INSTITUTIONALIZED PEOPLE), MALES OUTNUMBER FEMALES BY AT LEAST 5:1. (I WAS JUST WONDERING: IF FOF HAS OVER 1000 STUDENTS, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, HOW MANY PSYCHOPATHS WOULD FIT IN THE PICTURE?) IF YOU WANT MORE INFORMATION, JUST GOOGLE “PSYCHOPATH” AND YOU’LL FIND A LOT OF INFO. MOST PSYCHIATRISTS CONSIDER PSYCHOPATHS UNTREATABLE. THEY SAY THAT THE RELATIONSHIP WITH A PSYCHOPATH IS A “ONE WAY TICKET.” (YOU FIGURE THAT OUT.) THE ADVICE IN A NUT SHELL THAT YOU FREQUENTLY HEAR IS: RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN AND NEVER LOOK BACK. PEOPLE USUALLY TAKE YEARS TO RECOVER FROM THE EMOTIONAL DAMAGE THAT COMES WITH THE EXPOSURE TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS (IF THEY EVER RECOVER). THIS IS WHAT I READ IN ALMOST EVERY POSTING OF EX STUDENTS.
THE MAIN REASON I WANTED TO SHARE THIS WITH ALL OF YOU IS THAT, IF I AM CORRECT IN THIS ASSUMPTION, THE SITUATION IS HOPELESS. I ADDRESS HERE TO THOSE WELL INTENTIONED AND CHARITABLE SOULS THAT THINK IT POSSIBLE TO “CHANGE” RB. PSYCHOPATHS ARE BORN AND DIE AS SUCH. THE ONLY ALTERNATIVE IS TO INSTITUTIONALIZE THEM IF THEY BECOME A THREAT TO SOCIETY.
I APOLOGIZE FOR WRITING WITH A PSEUDONYM, BUT YOU KNOW WHAT HAPPENS WHEN SOME PEOPLE DON’T LIKE THE MESSAGE: THEY SHOOT THE MESSENGER…. AND I DON’T WANT TO DEAL WITH THE IDENTIFICATIONS OF OTHERS. IF SOME OF YOU DISLIKE THE CONTENT, PLEASE FELL FREE TO USE IT AS TOILET PAPER.. UNLESS YOU WANT TO CONTRIBUTE SOMETHING VALUABLE IN A CIVILIZED WAY.
“WITH GENEROSITY TO ALL, WITH MALICE TO NONE” A. L.
LET ME FINISH WITH A QUOTATION I READ SOMETIME AGO AND I THOUGHT I SHOULD TATTOO IT ON MY FOREHEAD WHILE PONDERING THESE PAST YEARS.
“PEOPLE USUALLY SHOW MORE COMMON SENSE TO BUY A SECOND HAND CAR THAN TO EMBRACE A RELIGION”
UNKNOWN
CIMARRON
May 20, 2007 at 3:30 pm
I know,I know Ouspensky was a failure. The failure said, “if man could be called an animal he could be called a lying animal”. Or, something like that.
The Iraq war was started by a lie (verification).
The fellowship of friends was started by a lie (verified).
The Iraq war has been on going since 1991 or there abouts. Maybe from the beginning of time since it’s supposed to be the cradle of civilization (unverfied).
The fellowship of friends is about 35 years old, something like that.
How can both the war in Iraq and the fellowship of friends started by lies continue to have lives of their own?
Mirror, mirror on the wall whose your favorite of them all?
Pilate said to him, “what is truth”?
May 20, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Hava Nagillah #353
Ok – you got a deal – we leave you in your monastery. All you gotta do is not log in anymore – it is that simple.
Good luck with your enlightment.
May 20, 2007 at 5:15 pm
Prior young worker and those who think that if they say to students to get out of the school, they will obey:
You say that 15 years ‘in’ is too long. How long is not long? If a person is trapped in a cult, there are reasons for it which are hidden in his mentality, and only he can decide when is a good time to leave, which is always when he’s ready.
You say that people should humble themselves first, or apologise? For what? For being misled and brainwashed? Do you suggest that people have to show publicly what is called ‘redemption’? But redemption to me is an intimate act of seeing that one was wrong and moving on without indulging in public self-punishment and self-resentment. That happened in Russia in ‘Perestroika’ times, when lots of politicians came forward condemning their past deeds, but no-one believed them and it would have been better if they would just moved on with their lives.
If you want to give hard time to people who were ‘high up’ in the school, why don’t you ask yourself the same question (#352 ManNumberSeven): “It’s not Robert that keeps the things going. It is the ‘Yes People’ under him that keep the gears greased, the Charles’, the Joel’s, the members of the board and others.” – others: is it not you, who also paid as long as you stayed? Actually, you state it yourself: “In my current frame of mind I would not have agreed to many of the financial and operational decisions we all “rubber-stamped” – and then you go on saying that you want to see Charles and Joel in prison?!! Is it self-loathing speaking?
To me, the act of leaving the school is a redeeming act in itself and doesn’t require apologies for the past or (especially) public self-beating.
May 20, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Hi Cimarron,
Thanks for your post. It made some excellent points and was intelligently written.
Just to let you know, posts typed in all capital letters are very hard to read. There is a generally accepted convention on the internet that typing in all capital letters is the equivalent of yelling loudly.
Please keep writing…just not all caps!
May 20, 2007 at 7:13 pm
To Prior Young Worker (#9-348)
Your post seem to me to be overly angry and judgmental. I have to ask, what were you doing during YOUR time in the FOF? Obviously, not asking the right questions or hunting for answers—until it was the right time, then you found the answers that you could by then absorb and left. You left for your own good reasons, in your own good time. Please grant the same to us.
Dear Young Worker, you know what it was/is like, surely? You know what buffers are, how they work, not just for others, but for you personally, don’t you? You know what it is to refrain from asking questions that in hindsight seem obvious, don’t you? And surely you know what it is like to accept the easy answers, the ones that quell anxiety, soothe the troubles, don’t you? And you must know all about self-calming. Didn’t you love the ideas of the Fourth Way too, and accept, at least at first, that others who had been working with the ideas for longer had some idea of what they were talking about, were suitable guides; you trusted that they loved the Fourth Way as you did?
What a topic for a face-to-face meeting! A group of us, in satsang, talking about how we give ourselves away, how we abdicate responsibility, how we hook ourselves… What is the learning process, how can we see ourselves and others without judgment, with clarity? What can we teach each other, truly? How can we help others, can we help others, what is the nature of help, why does some help in fact hinder, while other help, if received correctly, actually help? In the meantime, we have this blog…
(This gets into the nature of what being human is. We are not tigers, we are monkeys, we are tribal. We want to fit, we want to be valued, we want to know our place. Part of the human wants to be an individual, part want to be part of the pack. How can we resolve these socially and spiritually? Powerful forces indeed are at work, tugging this way and that. Let us have mercy on ourselves!)
Speaking for myself, I am not here to justify myself or my actions or inactions, but to record them. I can tell my story, as truthfully as I can. And the beauty of this medium, Young Worker, is that you don’t have to read it, unless you want.
When, usually by accident, I got a hint of things, I did try to get more information. In the earlier days, I was easily ‘put back to sleep’. For example, I tried to find out about Samuel Sanders and his letter. Since my search soon took me into the ‘influence field’ of ‘older students’ who gave me official ‘sleep–inducing angles’; I learned that the lawsuit was an “expression of extreme negativity” on Samuel Sanders’ part, “criminal activity”, no less, and that the letter was just another way of expressing negativity (some ‘older students’ said that it didn’t exist at all). So, I was satisfied, and left it at that. And, the records were sealed (as an aside, does anyone know how to get them unsealed? It seems a miscarriage of justice, i.e., justice not seen to be done, for them to be hidden from the light; can we petition the court to unseal them?). I don’t know when you were in the FOF; if you were there at the time; what were your memories, what were your actions at the time, what results did you obtain?
When Miles Barth left, I did get a copy of his letter (someone made sure it was well distributed, maybe Miles himself). Well written—in my opinion—(I was in tears at the time with the shock and sorrow), he said that he was leaving because his conscience told him to, and that was sufficient unto itself. He gave no details. I asked around, could get nothing. But I did enquire into his ‘school’, and was sent a copy of the first meeting. There was no clue I could find into why he left, or why I should leave the FOF and go join his group. But, there was a subliminal clue. He left during or just after the Samuel Sanders case; presumably he found out something so disturbing or revolting that he had to leave. I understood that he was involved in the case, had attended meetings if not the court. I understood that there had been depositions. Miles knew something, if not everything. I admired Miles for his straight talk out of meetings, and something in me trusted that he had acted for the best; but still, this was not enough to motivate me.
So, I let sleeping dogs and students lie (in both senses of the word).
And on it went, little bits and pieces here and there, not enough to jolt me into action, not enough evidence. It is true that I was all along hardening my heart against evidence from the emotional center. The sense that things were not right, that there was a heaviness at the core. That impressions were all very fine, but there was no humanity. That it all seemed so selfish, so self–centered. Burton spending what had to be millions per year ‘nurturing his essence’, ‘gathering impressions to refine his soul’, ‘studying works of art to save for the ark’, ‘healing his spirit because he bears so many of our burdens’. But, the official angle-givers were really excellent at their job.
So many decent people. So many interesting people. So many valuable lessons and insights; one of the best for me was that I made contact with people who I’d normally go to great lengths to avoid because they grated on my mechanics, and found that we are all humans with much more in common than differences; many valuable lessons like these learned.
But, the balance was tipping. Once I became curious and listened harder to the ‘gossip’, and asked questions to see if there was any basis, I started to see that yes, Burton did give a ‘leave of absence’ to the wife of his personal secretary and sex partner, a woman who presumed to have an affair of her own because she became so lonely. That Burton did give an expensive sweater to a man who tattled about the sex life of his landlady because she demanded he pay his rent. That the chief sex police officer did have sex with two separate vineyard workers the same week she turned in others for breaking the no sex outside marriage exercise. And so on, dozens upon dozens of examples of ‘things that didn’t fit’. The scandals and inconsistencies mounted, the evidence accumulated. Seeing some person’s pay stub by accident; that person was paid thousands of dollars, yet was in the same penury as any other worker. Asking the question. Yes, the FOF does pay certain people much more than others, they are expected to ‘donate’ the surplus back, and why–so Burton can get income at the lower rate of tax of the worker, rather than as a millionaire. And so on, and on… Charles R. and James B. left—the usual reasons, “they’ve lost their work, they’re negative”, and so on. But these were good people, and they were not negative.
And finally, every camel has a straw, the special straw that breaks its back. No different from any other straw, yet that’s the One. In my case, it was more like a whole bale. The Richard and Troy Buzbee case… Richard’s instance didn’t interest me so much, it seemed he knew more than he told, was less naïve than he claimed. But his son, that was another matter. Underage, primed by his dad to regard Burton as a god, he was led to the slaughter. One ‘older student’ said that “everyone knew, why the outrage?” as some sort of justification. But, I hadn’t known. So, I started asking, sometimes directly, sometimes in a roundabout way, just like a detective, the people who would know. The boys, the people who had suffered ‘injustice’, the ‘procurers’, the ‘older students’. I studied the work books, the directors, the meetings, my fellow students, with the critical eye that had been so long lacking. I let the stew simmer, then took a taste. I enjoyed the feeling of empowerment, taking back my own power. My conscience spoke up. I asked questions publicly. And, after sixteen years in which I never once offered an angle (outside of ‘small groups’), I ended my career by offering two in my last two meetings. The first was a suggestion that we change the form of the meetings so we could exchange more personal energies and deal with personal problems rather than theoretical and intellectualized questions, and the last in response to what I perceived was a brush-off by Linda of a student’s question; I asked that we deal with her question instead of seeking one that suited Linda’s agenda that night. The next day I got the Boot.
Young Worker, that’s why it takes time. It’s a process, different for everyone. It is much easier now to exchange information. Back in ‘my day’, I did it by publishing a little newsletter of encouragement (three issues), by copying letters that came my way and distributing them, by asking questions and telling everyone who would listen what I had found out. Others did the same. The letters were easy to intercept, I never imagined until late, late, late that folks like Girard regularly ‘swept’ the mail of what they deemed offensive or subversive material. I never imagined that the leaders coordinated policy and damage control. I never imagined that Abraham Goldman so ruthlessly attacked all criticism, or made settlements under condition of seal to avoid total defeat and then claimed victory to the FOF. Before ‘my day’ (the day of laser writers and personal publishing but not the web as we know it today), others like Thomas Easley (one of the earliest to speak up about his abuse) had to try to distribute their typewritten letters by hand. There was no Internet, no blog, no website to distribute information. Hopefully things can now happen faster.
Young Worker, folks like James B. and Charles R. are much braver than the anonymous you gives credit. They are getting up in public. Everyone knows who they are. They are telling their truth, which includes putting them in real jeopardy. They ARE taking responsibility; they just have a different timetable for themselves than you have for them.
I finish by saying to you, Young Worker, that I do apologize. I now know that I was something I never overtly claimed to be, an ‘older student’. I had no important role, but I now know that by simply ‘staying on’ I encouraged others to stay on past their time. If I overstayed, and I did, because “all those decent, hard-working folk can’t be wrong”, then others did because they perceived the same in my case. I had my ‘good student’ acts. I worked hard, stoically. I didn’t cry out, I didn’t demand. I didn’t have enough being, it’s that simple. But, I have to forgive myself, and I hope you do, too, as I forgive you for the your weaknesses. Now, out of true remorse, I try to make amends, and one way is to contribute to this blog; I hope that it will help and en-courage others in their time of need, present or future, when they have to make the difficult decisions.
With love to you and all, ‘in’ and ‘out’,
Ames
May 20, 2007 at 7:56 pm
To H. Nagillah, 353. from Elena
The school is not a monastery not did it ever say it was a monastery no matter how much you pray. Your inner prayer is no prayer at all if you cannot bring it out to harmony with your community.
Do not read me if you don’t wish to but don’t be angry at yourself if you can’t help it. I am not the truth but the truth stands on its own in each one of us and it is recognized.
I am not the issue, not my likes or dislikes, it is the way we live that is the issue and I am questioning it because it requires questioning.
The horrors of the fellowship have had me suffering for seventeen years but every day of those years I thought I was there not to judge and to not express negative emotions. Robert showed me who he really was in the play with Dorothy against my will. It happened to me. One human, Dorothy, against another, Robert, destroyed my imaginary picture of Robert and then I understood that his lack of second and third line were merely inhuman. A sick man like all those who support him unconditionally. We were all sick.
Your work is yours, it is not against that that I am talking. Guard it well. Remember the quote we so much loved by Shakespeare? “This to thine own self be true and it must come like the night the day, that thou canst then be false to any man” (paraphrasing perhaps?) But know that your self walks in the fingers of your lover and in the movements of your friends. Never imagine that you are alone or can be alone. The inner prayer is meant only to allow one to open the doors that keep others out. The lawfulness of our lives is the practical expression of those prayers. There are twelve thousand students knocking at your door or maybe it is only I who am knocking. You live inside of me, don’t ask me to throw you out because I cannot.
May 20, 2007 at 8:30 pm
Rita: 359
I don’t assume they will obey when I say get out. I assume they won’t. I’m sure most people reviewing this site don’t really think anything I write has much value. I am a realist. Isn’t this for expressing our opinions? Maybe one or two people will be affected by this.
Too long begins when you realize the group is not what you thought it was.
The apologies would be from those people who benefitted at the expense of those who suffered. If the shoe fits wear it. If it doesn’t fit at first try it on again before discarding.
May 20, 2007 at 9:52 pm
Oral moral from the Scientists:
What Sexual Scientists Know:
About Compulsive Sexual Behavior
Compulsive Sexual Behavior
Can sex become compulsive? Like most behaviors, sex can be taken to its obsessive and compulsive extremes. Sexual obsessions and compulsions are recurrent, distressing and interfere with daily functioning. Many people suffer with these problems but finding consensus about them among sexual scientists or treatment professionals is not easy. This makes it more difficult for those suffering from compulsive sexual behavior (CSB) to get the appropriate help they need. For those who want to know more about this problem, it is helpful to know about the types of CSB, the various theoretical viewpoints and treatment approaches. While there are many types of compulsive sexual behavior, they can be divided into two main types: paraphilic and non-paraphilic CSB.
Nonparaphilic CSB involves conventional sexual behaviors which when taken to an extreme are recurrent, distressing and interfere in daily functioning. One example is … a pattern of repeated sexual relationships involving a succession of lovers who are experienced by the individual only as things to be used” …
How Does One Know if He/She Needs Help Regarding CSB?
The following questions are examples of those used in assessing and treating CSB.
1. Do you, or others who know you, find that you are overly preoccupied or obsessed with sexual activity?
2. Do you find yourself compelled to engage in sexual activity in response to stress, anxiety, or depression?
3. Have serious problems developed as a result of your sexual behavior (e.g., loss of a job or relationship, sexually transmitted diseases, injuries or illnesses, or sexual offenses)?
Summary
Compulsive sexual behavior is a serious psychosexual disorder which can be identified and treated successfully. CSB does not always involve strange and unusual sexual practices. Many conventional behaviors can become the focus of an individual’s obsessions and compulsions. The exact mechanism of CSB is still under debate and various treatment approaches have been developed. Research is needed to further clarify the nature of the disorder, the mechanisms involved, and to test the most effective treatment approach. In the meantime, individuals suffering from CSB should not hesitate to seek professional guidance to properly assess their problem and to find help through counseling and treatment.
http://www.sexscience.org/publications/index.php?category_id=440&subcategory_id=334
May 20, 2007 at 10:46 pm
#223 James B
“the fourth way remains the most powerful tool for living I have yet to encounter”.
True for me also and I likewise have no regrets about my time in fof. I do regret the hurt that I caused others as a result of my participation (from the incorrect attitudes developed there)but I can hardly blame that on fof. Participation in fof gave me the time and environment to study and apply the ideas of the system with a group of people that for the most part remain the most remarkable people I have ever known. And now I find them again, with new interests, new perspectives and new challenges. Thank you all for being here.
#271
And why do you suppose all of these “realized awakened beings” are now showing up? Do you think it is because the spiritual marketplace demands them? And not only demands them, but demands that they give us enlightenment yesterday. “Okay Dorothy, just click those heels together”, shazam we’re back in Kansas
where we have always been and will always be.
In the 70’s the joke was that if you threw a brick out of any window in San Francisco you would hit some guru or other in the head. Did you notice that half of your enlightened masters live in California? There is gold to be found in them thar hills. I don’t mean to imply that some of these folks have not found some genuine truth and some of them don’t charge all that much for their wisdom, but you can’t tell me that Tolle and Adyashanti and others aren’t pulling in some substantial monies from books, CD’s, DVD’s, workshops, personal consultations and whatever else. And the beauty of their marketing technique is because they are not looking for long term students they can milk thousands of seekers without draining any of them dry. And as long as enlightenment is in vogue the marketplace just keeps expanding and bringing in more converts. In the future I will give my thoughts on a phone consultation that I had with John Wheeler.
Best to you all
Steve Anderson
May 20, 2007 at 11:27 pm
Dear All,
For anyone who tends to skim the longer postings, please take the time to digest the following: Joseph (324), James (325), Simon (354). Many of the fundamental facts showing that the Fellowship of Friends is a cult and Robert Burton is a conscience-free sham are laid down in these postings in a reasonble, non-aggressive way by people who are clearly writing from personal experience.
I find it hard to imagine how any current member of the Fellowhip of Friends could remain if they can accept the truth of these postings. And how can they be denied? Maybe mindless fanatics like Hava Nagillah can find a way, but anyone else? Surely not.
good luck, RB
May 21, 2007 at 12:01 am
Elena,
I have no right nor do I claim for such right to judge you for leaving the school.
I do criticize the right you took to preach others who see things in a different way and who wish to stay in the school and support it.
This has nothing to do with the actual impact, if at all, your messages have.
May 21, 2007 at 12:08 am
Time to graduate. A real school/teacher purpose is to graduate its students. For those still in FOF you have all the knowledge you need to move on with your lives and evolution. If you refuse to see the evil that is being done and how you are being used then you truly are asleep.
Awake, your higher self would never allow you to be under the influence of a teacher who misuses and abuses his students. Your awakening cannot come at the expense of others.
May 21, 2007 at 12:22 am
Peter,
You want to kick me out of here? …no deal dood.
Some people here, not so many I believe, have set a declared aim to offend the FoF.
I descided to try an balance the situation a little bit so when peple are surfing the web and enter this forum they could find some favorable opinions about the FoF.
Do not worry, you will survive my posts.
May 21, 2007 at 1:27 am
Assuming that the Fellowship of Friends is actually a bogus organisation that has developed as a means for Robert Burton to satisfy his probably psychopathic need for sex, money and dominance of others, what should one do?
If this really is the case shouldn’t we be picketing the Pyle with plackards saying “Wake up” and “read the Blog”?
Some have mentioned legal means to bring the Fellowship of Friends to account for its actions. It has aslo been mentioned that the downfall of the Fellowship of Friends would involve personal crises for many students, particularly those on religious visas.
I have previously been satisfied to be one of the contributors to the existence of a ‘real school’. Even if I did not feel I was deriving much value from it myself, it was something that I thought was extremely valuble and I felt a sense of purpose in providing the circumstances for real development, whether I was one of those who developed significantly in this life time or not.
If I now understand the school differently and see it as a destructive force, am I required to do anything about it?
May 21, 2007 at 1:56 am
Paraphrasing a Robert Burton quote from the 90`s
If you have not become conscious within ten years, you probably never will.
May 21, 2007 at 3:13 am
‘I see’ said the blind man (370): “Assuming that the Fellowship of Friends is actually a bogus organisation that has developed as a means for Robert Burton to satisfy his probably psychopathic need for sex, money and dominance of others, what should one do?”
The first step is to to get the hell out of there as quickly as possible. There are many current students who see that there is a lot wrong with the Fellowship of Friends but stay because, for example, they want to help their friends see the truth. This is not a good reason, believe me. Even if you see clearly the evil that is occurring you are still seriously compromised by the Fellowship as long as you remain a member. It’s almost impossible to see the insidious corruptive influences you are subject to while you’re in. As soon as you leave, much of the Fellowship programming falls away. You can help your friends from outside, especially these days, when the ignoring ex-students rule is only followed by the fanatics.
Once you’re out of the Fellowship, what else can you do? Big question, I hope there’ll be some postings on that topic. It’s time for my bath.
good luck, RB
May 21, 2007 at 4:02 am
Hello All-
I would estimate that the Fellowship property and all of it’s resources could be sold for over $30,000,000.00! In fact, that might be extremely low. A working winery, a 5000 sq ft. palace, multiple lakes, complete reatuarants. There are corporations that would love to buy a retreat like that. How about that law suit?
30 million divided by 10,000 minus legal costs??
May 21, 2007 at 4:02 am
To all, and to Post #370 from ‘I see’ said the blind man Says, who wrote: “Assuming that the Fellowship of Friends is actually a bogus organisation…”
and asks “what should one do?”
First, you are assuming, as you acknowledge, and if this is based on the blog-reading, your assumptions are based on probably a very very small minority of opinions, because there is a very large group of current members (not to mention thousands of former members) that are not posting to this blog that are firmly supporting the Fellowship as a school.
While no organization is perfect (and no organization can be comprised solely of perfect students–the reason we are here in the first place), I know hundreds and hundreds that would completely disagree as to your characterization as “bogus.”
Just because some feel and articulate their reasons why it is a “scam” as Rabbi Burns believes (after his many years as a member–which makes his words doubtful too), this does not make it so–in matters such as these, it is one’s individual verification that matters.
Of course the answer is that if you feel it is bogus, leave if you must, but can you also see, at least by your own past experience and the assumption that you have to make that some 2000 present members are not feeling as you do, that it is only fair to let them judge for themselves? In addition, you must have gained something useful for some time, otherwise you would not have stayed so long as you have.
Best to all,
Siddiq
May 21, 2007 at 5:03 am
Ames, I am not ready to put my name down yet for a particular reason but it is probably coming soon. Thanks for your insights. You are just as I perceived you then. My respect for you is restored.
A difference between you and I is that I was so far from the “Robert action” while I was there I didn’t get any glimpses of problems really. I lived at Renaissance for about 6 years. At the same time you were there. Left at the same time as Miles for the same reasons that you almost left.
I wish I could visit on the 26th, but I am too far away and I just discovered this blog. Will continue to read your thoughts. Thanks.
May 21, 2007 at 6:04 am
Hey y’all!
It’s been a while. I’ve been having my own private conversation with a certain poster who has been absent here for sometime as well– I’m sure you all miss his food for fofer! I’ve tried to gently talk some sense into him but I’m afraid I need your wiser, wittier ways…
Then again, this blog is pretty dense sometimes. Jeepers, let’s live a little.
I ‘m here now because I had made plans to go to the reunion but now I’m not sure I want to go… Will Siddiq actually be there? I thought the splinter group in OH had rules about that!? Watch out FoFers, I have a very, very small camera that can easily catch a close-up of any particular pair of laughing lips AND I have connections on the inside.
Sheik, will you come? Here’s my question: Is this going to be fun or more like a visit to the morgue? You never know, with all of us dead souls playing music together and drinking ink (thanks Carl! I’ll never forget bringing in the new year with you at a small dinner party at your house, listening to Beethoven’s 9th). I guess I’ll just have to toss a coin…
peace out,
Jules
May 21, 2007 at 6:28 am
In Reply to Posts #361/#348/9, #368/9,
#369/9 and #371/9
Hello Renald ~ (Post #371/9)
To paraphrase your paraphrasing, a Girard Haven quote from the 90’s in response to RB’s quote from the 90’s.
“We’ll see about that.” GH
_________________
Luckily, they were both deeply mistaken.
It’s not hard to hit the bull’s eye when its considered the entire wall that the dartboard is attached to.
________________________________________
To H.N., Post #369/9
Remember my friend, that what is occurring here on this blog is not about any one person,
its ‘seems to me’ to be about bringing about a change in level of being through the transformation of negative hydrogens for what ever reason they’re in the air, correct me someone if I am ‘out in left or right field’ on this one.
For my experience, reading your posts I am seeing a certain familiar someone, perhaps someone who is identified with being a ‘member’ and not an entire body of their own.
I do not see any practical use in bringing upon one’s self some duty to balance the scales here, for there is no “Blind Justice” needed, the regular life of the FoF will do, without any additional effort from specific family members.
A wish to ‘balance’ the blog’s reconciliation-desiring-facts with the ‘FoF scribbles and do-dad-figures’? I estimate you have nearly 3800+ postings to write, I would advise hykoo.
You might at first say, ‘Geez guy, you’re pretty sarcastic and there’s been a caution flag posted for such energies, Whaz up?’
Yet, I know you and if you were here in front of me I would wish to humor you a bit, see you smile, laugh at your and my Joan-of-ark-ness tendencies.
It has been my experience that sarcasm is simply a certain kind of humor that can fall one way or the other,
one way it falls on essence and higher centers, the other, personality and the negative halves of centers who support the drama seeking ‘feelings’ of a painful self image,
that quickly buffers its reflection by pointing fingers and saying ‘Your sarcasm hurts me.’
Yet, as I have found out through hundreds of situations with children, often the most ridiculous, absurd logic connectivities gets through the nearly razor edge tight seams of their armor.
So, please, do not think I am being sarcastic for the sake of making fun of your stoic position, I think it’s healthy to know how to make a raft from goat intestines, as Gurdjieff did,
just remember to look around during construction of that ‘ark’ and to not forget to count yourself as a passenger needing space, for in the end, its usually the craftsman who gets left behind by his creation’s ‘function’ and all those partaker’s of convenience riding upon it’s ‘Life of it’s own.’
I think it’s great that you’re still in the FoF, have fun, love your life, love others life, become and be.
As all impressions that pass by one’s conscience, this blog is just another ‘show’, how it falls upon your ‘spirit’ is all your business, none of mine. Some of the greatest friendships I ever had were those which contained conscious limitations, not mechanical ones, yet, even those faded away, so to speak,
“Nothing stays the same.”
Just one friendly ‘hint’ at surviving this greenhouse of blossoming, unless you truly wish to be another Howard Carter fertilizer spritz, try not to believe that this blog is trying to convince you to do anything.
It convinces me to do one thing, share my being and of course, smell the roses.
So, please try not to get caught in the self-righteous trap, there’s plenty of pain body’s in here that are salivating over your ‘duty’ to your fellow community and model for ‘the meek shall inherit the earth.’
For me, I’ve already left my portion of this place to a seasonal collection of frogs, who, in a very incredible way, dig themselves deep under the mud of my little portion of earth during springtime and wait out the hot summer, frequently reemerging during drought conditions to populate my makeshift fountain with their humble praise-croaks for my generous heirloom upon their 53 million year old proximity.
I truly wish you well in your stay: I can guarantee that things within the FoF will certainly test, very soon, everything you’ve been taught by C-Influence to see and feel consciously,
though, as we all know ‘after the fact’, what the tests always seem to do is make us deeper beings, which we ourselves simply cannot do alone…
Purchase a miner’s hat, you’ll need it.
I got mine on Ebay: equipped with night vision for seeing bats and the like. The night vision is optional.
_____________________________________
Hello Sam, (Post #368/9)
I know of so many FoF students who mail RB away every day, like a 44 cent stamp, (BTW, how is it that the number is not 45, after all does not RB count himself or could that have been a Freudian slip?)
I heard one student once say, “I buffer all this stuff every day.”
You might ask yourself, how long did it take to change your level, of being able to move consciously, without Thought and Contradiction hammering Yield & Stop signs along your way?
I will not congratulate you on leaving, only, I see that you’re over ‘there #1’ and ‘HN-Post 369/9’ is over ‘there #2’, so, what are you ‘doing’, over there?
Someone came to me once and mentioned that they knew of a shaman who could see through walls, break stones with his pinky, walk through walls and levitate.
I replied, “Yes? and what can he do for others?”
The circus stopped there, end of story.
Many in the FoF legitimize their stay by saying, “I am staying for my friends and C-Influence, These I have regardless of what RB does with and to others, who, after all said ‘yes’ to his advances.”
After internally, gregariously laughing in the face of this incredible play on earth and traveling to Pluto to take a very cold celestial shower, I return to ask this,
“What does one truly have when that some thing’s lifespan seems to be suggested to hang on the yes or no decision to leave that which does not fit into the picture concerning the other two aspects, that is, friends and C-Influence?”
Now that sounds complex, yet, in the event that one’s conscience is malfunctioning, if its there at all ‘The Princess and the pea’, it often takes such ‘stringy logic’ to provoke a ‘certain kind’ of mental activity in people of a ‘certain kind’ of automatic, formatory stubbornness.
See, as I look deeper into this, for mainly my own cathartic benefit, knowing I’ll hit the ‘Submit Comment’ button afterwards, I realize that its a complete mechanical triad of love and hate, the same triad that keeps all family’s together in some strong, silent, repetitive way, the Buddhist’s Wheel of Life?
Take a look at this ~
Me and my friends,
Me and C-Influence,
Me and what antagonizes the above listed, giving us something to talk about, prove otherwise by our actions, support certain parts that appeal to our corresponding parts, mostly related to ‘self calming’, while letting the rest of the body go unchecked, much like our own contradictions, which, upon closer inspection compliment one another through these friendships, hence,
strong friends, fearful independence, strong gods, no permanent god state yet, relationship to outside forces, unsure internal will, suspicion of teacher, redeeming son & daughter roles, guarding maternal, privately scolding paternal roles, almost man #8, just man #4.
See, the illusory sillyness in this triad is that the last section of it, the 3rd force, is in the closet and as we know, every healthy body in a closet ends up as a skeleton, not much good on the golf course when the tees hit the fan.
So, this is what you get… Everyone is huddled round ‘dad’ taking about his news, his mysterious workshop out back, his ham radio hobby no one is ever spot on in relating to, his sudden decision to go to China and re live the building of The Great Wall, his task to read the Bible backwards and learn how to breed orchids, while attempting to exhume the bubonic plague from mummified, buried cattle carcasses in England.
All this mystique is serious stuff, yet as I have seen for a very long time from being deeply immersed in such societal phenomenon, it goes nowhere, and leads one to contempt for ‘dad’, kicking his gravestone for being impenetrable in his jovial escapades and colossally tunnel visioned in letting them go on so to not share in some of their stuff.
Welcome to life on planet earth…
This is not to say that kicking ‘dad’s’ tombstone is ‘natural’, yet, there are certain ‘unfinished businesses’ who do suddenly pop up ‘after the fact’, this is one of those impulses that point to a form of deeper non-existence everyone must sooner or later face head on:
until then, this is what you get in the FoF at large ~
Laughing at Dad behind his back,
Telling god what RB should do instead of him. Or, stranger yet, holding god in check for his cherub’s strange left turn into a brick wall.
I recall once paying a visit to an elderly couple, to my surprise, the man called his wife ‘mother’ and she, her husband, called ‘father’. Now there’s something!
How far is the FoF away from the exact chemical, glandular ‘Twister Game’ dominance model of humanity that keeps the whole world in a certain ‘check’ or ‘state of affairs’, each thinking the other is responsible for whatever he or she feels?
Not far I would say. Very close. The only difference is that in this blog, as in all conscious spiritual seeking, there is a ‘certain something’ that keeps checking that it’s not nodding off while driving on the Washington D.C. Beltway.
With each laugh behind dad’s back comes a shovel full of a certain kind of soil, soon, ‘Atlantis’ will be said to have risen, let’s not consider though the new 2000 mile radius crater under the sea you guys have dug.
My father senses that I know certain aspects of his ‘unfinished business’ from the core, so does RB, can you say the same for your participation in what is termed a conscious society and if not, how is it that you choose to laugh and defer the responsibility of loving your sense of conscience to 44 conscious beings, who in of themselves never expressed these techniques of ‘self calming pigeon holing’ as beneficial or worthy of ‘right’ labor? What have you decided to bless with your expression of conscience?
Mainly I see, underneath that portion belonging to students that cannot answer questions directly put to their ‘feeling apparatus’ silence, fear of loosing and what you call A influence concerns.
As the car thief told the owner who was found to have had a lien on his vehicle at the time of theft, “You cannot loose what you never truly had.”
So, take the test my lovers, is your friendship one of conscious inconvenience or self calming convenience?
Has your relationship to C-Influence really changed by perhaps standing a bit too long in front of a portrait painted by them or not? Are you affirming or confirming more affirming?
Nothing real is ever lost, put on hold perhaps, due to physical proximity, yet Time reveals all… If you loose ‘your idea’ of C-Influence and your friends over bringing the triad into conscious householder, then it was never a house meant to stay in from the get go
or is it one of those ’43 year old man found living with his mother’ things?
I love you regardless of your form.
Though I’m not saying “Rock on.”
____________________________________
Regarding Post #361/9 responding to
Post #348/9
Hello Ames & PriorYoungWorker:
Since we can’t meet face to face, I have to write this here, outside, where any one can ‘take a swig’,
“It’s ok”, a homeless person once told me, “Take a swig, the alcohol kills any germs left on the mouth of the bottle.”
So I did, it burned, but felt good to see the look in his eyes, that I had taken a leap into the unknown with him, he seemed momentarily pleased at my initiation into trusting him, momentarily…
I sense that a portion of your post was a bit ‘self justifying’ to P.Y.W.
Believe me Ames, no one truly reading your posts would ever second guess your conscience, its timing at hatching open, etc. For no one on this planet has the true leisure to jump over the gulf between naiveté and wisdom:
even Meher Baba photographed himself for being too identified with sports as a young man and Buddha slapped his hand on the table twice, after the fly flew away:
his student asked why he did that,
he responded “I was not here for the first attempt.”
Yes, certainly PriorYoungWorker’s post to you merits something of a reply, though perhaps not self explaining. I vaguely remember the night you stood up in the Town Hall, how the whole room became ‘clam-tight’ and Linda T. was spiraling towards some form of cerebral approximation that would pale Chaos Theory.
I’ve never seen shellfish with wings, you?
And Prior Young Worker, consider a shift in point of view… As I see it, there’s good reason there’s weight classifications in boxing, if you’re not a heavy weight and with no M60 in tow, don’t go plucking Mike Tyson’s ear.
To me, your stretching some imaginary level of being out over a field inhabited by certain kinds of deeply experienced-beings, beings who love you, though don’t wish to spoil you by saying “Thank you for your reminder to judge myself with a level of being I have now that I didn’t have then”.
Yes, you’re presumptuously stirring a stew you think you’ll like when winter comes, though you’re doing it in Hawaii.
Get a grip, humble yourself under one of these shade trees in here, Whalerider could give scale and relativity to your ‘purple heart’, which I believe you may have purchased on Ebay from the same guy I got my miner’s hat from.
___________________________________
Love to you all.
May 21, 2007 at 7:49 am
Ames #339
re: Phone call from Robert Burton to James Battaglia, October 23, 1994
“R: Have you verified C Influence?”
“R: You don’t sound like you are coming from the king of hearts, more from your king of clubs.”
“R: You have to be concerned with YOUR future.”
“R: C Influence wants me to be a homosexual and have sex with my students so that I may have humility…”
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
ENOUGH IS ENOUGH!!!
I CANNOT READ THIS SHIT ANYMORE!!!
I AM HAUNTED AND REPULSED BY THAT MAN’S VOICE!!!
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
TO ANYONE STILL IN THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS:
———————————————
I AM SCREAMING IN MY INNER WORLD NOW AT THE TOP OF MY LUNGS WITH EVERY OUNCE OF MY BEING!!!!!!
I GRASP YOUR SHOULDERS
AND SHAKE, SHAKE, SHAKE YOU OUT OF YOUR DEEP SLEEP!!!
WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!!! WAKE UP!!!! WAKE UP!!!
WHAT THE FUCK IS THE MATTER WITH YOU????
ARE YOU BLIND????
ARE YOU INSANE????
YOUR HOUSE IS ON FIRE!!!
OBSERVE THE TIME AND FLY FROM EVIL!!!
DON’T BE A FOOL!!!
THIS GUY IS THE SLEASIEST GUY IN THE UNIVERSE!!!
HE’S A SVENGALI!!!
HE HAS YOU STUCK IN A DOUBLE BIND!!! A CATCH 22!!! A HEAD LOCK!!! A DEATH GRIP!!!!
YOU ARE IMPRISONED IN YOUR OWN MIND!!!
FREE YOURSELF NOW!!!
DON’T WASTE ANOTHER NANO-SECOND OF YOUR LIFE!!!
RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN, DON’T EVER LOOK BACK!!!
HE GETS OFF TOYING WITH YOUR LIFE!!!
TAKE CONTROL OF YOUR FATE TODAY!!!
YOU ARE NOT HIS PLAYTHING!!!
YOU ARE BETTER THAN THAT!!!
I CAN TELL YOU FROM THE BOTTOM OF MY SOUL…
HE’S LYING!!!
THAT’S NOT HOW THE GODS MAKE MEN HUMBLE!!!
ROBERT GETS PLEASURE FROM WHAT HE DOES WITH HIS BOY-TOYS!!!
THAT’S NOT HUMILITY!!!
CAN’T YOU SEE THAT?????
THE JOKE IS ON YOU!!!
HE DOESN’T CARE ONE BIT ABOUT YOUR “EVOLUTION”!!!
HE WOULD DROP YOU IN AN INSTANT WITHOUT EVEN GIVING YOU A SECOND THOUGHT!!!
POOF!!! AND YOU ARE GONE!!!!
++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
CAN YOU FEEL ME NOW?????
+++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++
To everyone who has already left the Fellowship:
——————————————
However long you were a member,
It doesn’t matter!
Each night, before you enter first state,
Humbly,
From your heart of hearts:
THANK GOD ALMIGHTY!!!
…that you had the luck, courage, strength, and common sense to free youself from this self-imposed prison! All that matters is that you are free to start living YOUR life!
And for God’s sake, trust yourself!
You are very much still on the path to your enlightenment!
It is not meant to be easy!
Be in good householder,
Listen to your conscience,
Make the virtuous choice,
And the Gods will always help with you.
PLEASE, TELL YOUR STORY SO OTHERS CAN LEARN FROM YOUR MISTAKES! THEN HISTORY WILL FORGIVE YOU, TOO.
********************************************
I hug my children,
And my wife,
And I make sure to tell them I love them every day.
I work hard so they can be proud of me,
and I let the Gods take care of the rest.
WhaleRider
1979-1985
PS. For Cathie #360…I WAS YELLING!!!
May 21, 2007 at 8:44 am
Re: Sam 368,
“Time to graduate. A real school/teacher’s purpose is to graduate its students.”
My understanding is that one graduates (from life) when one joins a school, and some stay graduated. If one leaves a school one goes back to where one came from.
The ones who stay do so because to them there is no point in leaving. People come to a school to know themselves and that is a lifetime endeavor. They also wish to contribute to the building of a school which is also a lifetime endeavor.
Schools have charters and need workers. So far approximately 12,000 to 14,000 individuals have participated in the building of the FoF in its 38 year existence and some have come to know themselves in the process.
Personally, I would expect the number of participants to be far greater over time. Thirty Eight years is an extremely long time for a cult, but a very short time for a school.
May 21, 2007 at 10:40 am
To Unoanimo re: Post #335/9
Concerning Post #314/9
I guarentee I will help you bring to the spoken word what you have brought to the page. Good lord darling, IMHO your contribution to this blog is one of the most elegant things to have ever spun out of the fof web. (I would say THE most elegant thing but I don’t want to get busted for using absolutes.) Your heart, your heart! You must have been well loved thus far in your earthly journey. How in the world did the fof lure you in? Sounds like you stayed long enough to speak with authority and brief enough to have kept your sense of self (and humor).
So, here’s a couple of factoids I’d love to hear your (or anybody else’s) thoughts on.
1. I find it fascinating that Peter Brook directed Lord of the Flies before he directed Meetings with Remarkable Men. Seems we’ve had a little Lord of the Flies action going on in the fof since day one. I think this blog is the ship coming to the rescue!
2. I also find it fascinating that both Stanislavsky and Gurdjieff dedicated their major works, My Life in Art and Beezelbub’s Tales, to the American people. The both felt that their ideas could flower in the USA. Your thoughts?
Thanks so much for the youtube about Faith. Apart from Faith herself, I loved the idea about the story before the story.
………..
To Whale Rider
I wish you would email me shellmit@gmail.com as I’d love to know who you are. What a tender memory you recall about me watching out for Thomas’ hands. I don’t remember that. I’m curious; did you know I was embroiled in controversy with the top brass over RB’s ‘private’ life when you visited Venice? You must have been there around the time I had the conversation with RB I related in my 272/6 post. Anyway, my heart is deeply touched by all your contributions to this blog.
A few “before I knew” stories:
NYC
Once, while on the plaza at Lincoln Center with a bunch of students waiting to see the ballet, RB got behind me, took my arm, stretched it out and made me point to a scantly dressed young female performance artist who was doing some kind of edgy routine for the crowd. He whispered in my ear “she is evil”. I was appalled and shot back “no she’s not”. I felt a great deal of tension at that moment because I was an actress too and also and disappointment that my teacher could be so provincial. Little did I know.
Another story: London
Once, around 1981, while having lunch at the Waterside Inn (one of the most expensive restaurants in the world) RB and I were having a chat. It was shortly after T. and I were married and, T. being T., I discovered how s-t-u-b-b-o-r-n that man could be. Well, I knew that T. had lived with RB from 1972 to 1980 and I said, “Gee, I’m glad he was with you before he was with me because if he’s this stubborn now he must have been a real case before he lived with you!” Well RB looked at me with horror on his face. I didn’t know what I’d said wrong!
Another story: Venice
OK- so we’ve had enough graphic sexual descriptions on this blog that I hope the following won’t shock any of the more sensitive readers. And T., if you’re reading this, forgive me but it’s just too, too funny not to share with the more literary bloggers.
SO- This is not so much about RB as it is about synchronicity. Anyway here goes… Anybody here heard of Erica Jong? Her famous book Fear of Flying reveals that she and RB have a favorite sexual pastime in common, except that Ms. Jong is famous for doing it in airplanes. Anyway, seeing as I delight in beautiful young men at least as much as RB does I was a little put off that dear T. didn’t like it when I performed the act that made Ms. Jong so famous. He NEVER liked it during our whole marriage and at the time I never knew why. Well anyway, you can only imagine my wonderment, when after T. and I divorced, he started hanging out with none other than Ms. Erica Jong herself! He even accompanied her to the Venice film festival. I knew he’d never read her book and wondered long and hard what the heck SHE was going to do with him!
Ah well- that’s enough for now. I hope my stories provide a little comic relief for those who need it and a little insight for those who don’t believe.
Love to you Whale Rider
Love to you Unoanimo
And Love to you Sheik!
May 21, 2007 at 11:14 am
Dear Hava Nagillah,
I want to let you know that the spirit of friendship has won in me and I am not going to have a go at you for calling the school a ‘monastery’, although it’s very tempting, plus you were not nice to me).
But I will question your belief.
Obviously, you don’t know the meaning of the word ‘monastery’, which derives from ‘one’ or ‘alone’. The idea of a monastery is the one of a place where devotees practice CHASTITY, poverty and self-abandonment and give their lives to the prayer to God.
Although you personally might excercise all the above, your ‘abbot’ of your ‘monastery’ is quite opposite to the description and practices all but that.
So the term ‘monastery’ you used would be to describe something like those medieval ones, famous for indulgence in all ‘unholy’ activities.
I much prefer the description given by a friend which became legendary: “Fellowship of Friends is an orgy in slow motion”.
Yes, there are some sincere and uncorrupted, heroic ‘monks’ in there, but given the leader, you would be more accurate calling the place ‘Sodom’.
May 21, 2007 at 11:58 am
Siddiq (374): Logic has its rules.
(not to mention thousands of former members) that are not posting to this blog that are firmly supporting the Fellowship as a school.
Hmmm, how do you know that? Thousands? Really?
I know hundreds and hundreds ((students)) that would completely disagree as to your characterization as “bogus.”
They would, they are members. How do you think it would make them feel if they all suddenly discovered that they have given most of their lives and all of their passion to a ‘bogus’ organisation. Now there a would be a nice spiritual crisis.
Just because some feel and articulate their reasons why it is a “scam” as Rabbi Burns believes (after his many years as a member–which makes his words doubtful too)
After his many years as a member? I see, we can’t change our opinions, we can’t make new realisations. Because the true purpose of a human being is to stagnate. Hmmm.
Siddiq, don’t give lessons in logic. Your last paragraph makes a lot of sense (different people, different view of FoF) but the paragraphs that are supposed to build up to it are even worse articulated than the premise you were trying to discredit.
Inner Jewels (376): I will not be coming. I haven’t been to the USA yet and if I were to go I would spend much more time in there and would have to plan accordingly.
Howard Carter (379): Welcome back.
My understanding is that one graduates (from life) when one joins a school, and some stay graduated. If one leaves a school one goes back to where one came from.
That’s an interesting thought. I personally disagree with yout understanding but I am glad that you explained yourself so well. Do you still believe (after all these years) that you have graduated from ‘life’?
I used to dream of being special, I used to wish I was the man, but awakening is a process and we are all on the same boat. In the words of R.A.Wilson: ‘If you occasionally notice that you have been thinking or acting as a cosmic schmuck, you will become less of a cosmic schmuck and the more often you notice that you have been thinking or acting as a cosmic schmuck, the less of a cosmic schmuck you will become. On the other hand if you never never never even suspect that you may be thinking or acting like a cosmic schmuck, you will remain a cosmic schmuck for all your life.’
Do they teach humility and humour at Isis?
May 21, 2007 at 1:07 pm
Rita, people enter a school or cult because that is where they are supposed to be, not because they are fooled initially or later trapped. A person being a Yes Man or Woman in a cult, out of a cult would be a manager or a 2nd in command – in a position where they would get stuff done. Many people were lost before they entered the FOF and were lost afterward.
I wasn’t trapped in the school, I was having the time of my life. It was heaven on Earth. I was busting my butt with people I liked, traveling, learning new skills. And after a time (7 or 8 years) whatever seemed to be there for me was no longer there and I moved on. There was no trap. Leaving was exciting as entering.
I’m so sick about hearing about the rape stuff – really. I lived at the Blake cottage on and off and traveled with Robert a lot. From what I could see – people that went behind closed doors with Robert went there because they wanted to. And if you remember, many of them ended up with the hot chicks. Robert made it worthwhile to get dumped. Many of these fellows were mindless believers, and while they were tripping with Robert they were on cloud 9. They loved the attention, they loved being close to Robert, and they loved how others looked upon them.
As I said I spent many a night staying at the Blake Cottage and I slept with Robert alone in the same room in other cities and never once did he put the moves on me. People are simply a bunch of crybabies.
The point I’m making is that a criminal in the school would have been a criminal anywhere. People are predisposed to be good at certain things, and one thing Robert was very good at was assigning people to jobs they were good at. Look at Roger as the ranch manager. He was born to do that, as were the young ladies that worked in the laundry and those who worked in the vineyard. He knew how to peg people’s weaknesses and strengths.
May 21, 2007 at 1:16 pm
Rita,
I am almost 30 years in the school and I have never attended an orgy inside or outside the school.
Personally I stick to monogamy, but I am not interested in other people’s sexual life.
May 21, 2007 at 2:45 pm
Rabbi Burns (#366):
“I find it hard to imagine how any current member of the FOF could remain if they can accept the truth of these postings” (#324, #325, #354).
Yes, I accept the the truth of these postings and I do accept that RB may be suffering from a psychopathic personality disorder.
And yes, it is a cult for those who have the need to believe in the bizzare fantasies spun by RB. For those who do not have the ability to think for themselves it is even a dangerous environement; but, for them, so is life. To what extent I am complicit in the harm that comes to some of them (by the hands of RB or in other ways in FOF) is a question that I am considering.( And I do feel compassion towards those who have described unpleasent experiences).
For the time being my answer is that I’m not more at fault or responsible to the suffering of individuals than I’m complicit in exploitation when I buy a product at Wallmart (that may have involved child labour), or pay taxes in a country that sends troops to fight a possibly unjust war. The suffering of an individual is often a consequence of a person’s nature, twists of fate, and of many small compromises & choices. (And if I have chances to correct a wrong I do that to the best of my ability).
Those with whom I have & had meaningful association in my time in the school (beyond an occassional polite conversation) were never among the fundamentalists. Nor are they the ones who, like innernaut or NoPerson felt the horrors of ‘near constant feeling of fear & guilt’ & ‘eternal damnation’ looming if they do not ‘remember themselves’, or if they fail to taste the third bite (see NoPerson’s ‘third bite horror story’ in one of her posts). These extreme responses have to be taken to psychotherapy whether one is in the school or out. I’m pretty sure that leaving FOF doesnt ‘cure’ them; they probably just change subjects. (for example; NoPerson in #218 speaks about the ‘enlightened- us versus deluded- them’ lumps me & everybody in the one camp or the other & wanting to save the souls of all of ‘them’ with the very same HowardCarter -like demonizing & devisive zeal that she claims she used to possess and she is cured from).
No, I am not deluded, in denial or suffer from a severe ‘cognitive dissonance’. Nor did I and my friends ever stop looking ‘elsewhere’ for whatever can benefit & enrich us with lessons & provide insights. And it often meant being involved in practices that officially were considered anathema to school practices.
No, CharlesR, I and many friends didn’t ‘leave our souls at the door’ when we joined, although some of the ‘anointed’ ones (JoelF, SandraC & others) were pressuring to do so; we stayed more relaxed than the driven pioneers, independent, soaking in the pragmatic aspects of the Work, rejecting the exagerated & the fantastic claims of the believers, & we regarded RB from afar as a liability or a sort of a ‘libidinal’ phenomenon that has to be tolerated or studied from afar as a dangerous paradox. There were periods in which it almost seemed that he has retired; those were ‘golden days’.
Almost everything expressed on this blog with a few exceptions falls in one of the two distinct camps between which the lines are thickly drawn: the hardcore defenders of FOF and RB and the many staunch opponents.
The fact is that a large minority doesn’t remain only because they ‘have not seen the light yet’, or they ‘have nowhere to go’ or they are ‘still brainwashed’; many in FOF continue to benefit from this “strangely sick, yet wonderfully life enhancing environement” (SandraC #196), and still find some aspects of it fruitful & useful.
Furthermore, lately, unexpectedly, I feel that the new situation of disillusionment, disappearing of forums, the departure of some friends, the blog, the growing schism between the ‘loyals’ & the ‘disenchanted’ brings new opportunities.
“so much talk and very little that’s gets to ‘breath the fresh air’ outside the box”
(Unoanimo).
May 21, 2007 at 3:04 pm
374 Siddiq:
“…there is a very large group of current members (not to mention thousands of former members) that are not posting to this blog that are firmly supporting the Fellowship as a school.”
“I know hundreds and hundreds that would completely disagree as to your characterization as “bogus.”
“some 2000 present members are not feeling as you do”
How the hell can you state these “facts” as if you know them to be true. It’s pure bull shit, and we know where your pulling these “facts” from.
May 21, 2007 at 3:16 pm
379, Howard Carter… You are now a fully automated drone unit, on the extreme far side of the spectrum from where you think you are. Congratulations, please advance to de-rusting.
May 21, 2007 at 4:14 pm
In Memoriam – Fellowship of Friends
HOLD it up sternly! See this it sends back! (Who is it? Is it you?)
Outside fair costume–within ashes and filth,
No more a flashing eye–no more a sonorous voice or springy step;
Now some slave’s eye, voice, hands, step,
A drunkard’s breath, unwholesome eater’s face, venerealee’s flesh,
Lungs rotting away piecemeal, stomach sour and cankerous,
Joints rheumatic, bowels clogged with abomination,
Blood circulating dark and poisonous streams,
Words babble, hearing and touch callous,
No brain, no heart left–no magnetism of sex;
Such, from one look in this looking-glass ere you go hence,
Such a result so soon–and from such a beginning!
(A Hand-Mirror by Walt Whitman)
May 21, 2007 at 4:51 pm
9/374 Siddiq wrote
Of course the answer is that if you feel it is bogus, leave if you must, but can you also see, at least by your own past experience and the assumption that you have to make that some 2000 present members are not feeling as you do, that it is only fair to let them judge for themselves? In addition, you must have gained something useful for some time, otherwise you would not have stayed so long as you have.
This is an important point but it needs to be developed. You make a few assertions:
– 2,000 current members do not feel that the Fellowship of Friends is bogus.
– THat it is only fair to let them judge for themselves.
– I have gained something through being a memeber and therfore it is a positive thing to be a member.
There are many resons to stay in the school that are not very noble. I have heard several students say to me that they have no where else to go. Then there is the economic subsistance community at Oregon House that many students are trapped in and the fact that few have any savings or see many possibilities in mainstream life. People are also havily invested. Others, who are not part of the backwater life of OH, have already paid enough in teaching payemnts over the years to now own a million $ home free and clear, had they done something different with their money. There is also the cumulative effect of years of ‘thinking positivily’ about the school and RB, it takes time to come to a more objective understanding. I am sure there are lots more reasons too.
You say that it is only fair to let people judge for themselves. I have no doubt that you represent the ‘school’ on this blog in some quasi official way and that you say this is an important development. Maybe you have some suggestions as to how to provide the conditions necessary for people to judge for themselves fairly. Certainly it would involve making sure they were aquainted with certain facts that are supressed in the interests of the perpetuation of the Fellowship of Friends as a vehicle for Robert Burton. If the institution and the teacher’s aims and methods are sound, surely transparency is the best option, yet you know better than I, what is being done to conceal matters from members.
One lasting impression that I will take with me is how tireless, positive and willing students have been. The students are to my mind far more impressive than Robert Burton. I wonder what they could have done with a better teacher with a better organisation behind him. What a thing to collect together so many people who wanted to work on themselves and were willing to make great payments. Surely the criminality of the FEllowship of Friends is that it has preyed on these people for the perverted benefit of its founder and for the continuation of an economic and power system that favored those in positions of authority. The Fellowship of Friends takes credit for members payments and efforts. Maybe we could have derived more value from our efforts and payments had they been made elsewhere. If the Fellowship of Friends is not the pinacle of consciousness in the wasteland of humanity it pretends to be, then many of our supposed gains are also false.
May 21, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Forgive my anonymity, but what I am about to write concerns my friends, to whom I don’t wish any troubles with the authorities.
Some 4 years ago two of Robert’s boyfriends, both Russians, were rejected visas to the US. Robert then came to the aid of students (then in Rome) to acquire forged Czechoslovakian passports through Italian mafia with which they tried to enter the country.
Immigration officers discovered the forgery and the two boys spent some time with police at the airport.
Decision was made to send them back to the country from which they came from, i.e. France. They spent about 3 months in prison there, after which time they were sent back to Russia.
Being in the prison did some good to one of them, as he had time to ‘come to his senses’ and finally decided to leave Robert and the school.
The other, however, is still ‘serving’ Robert, although hating it, but such is the price of staying in the country of his choice.
The one who was leaving told Robert about his decision, to which he said that if he does leave him, his wife is going to leave him and he’s going to loose some attractive things offered to him by his teacher. Still, he left and after a while his wife left him.
After a while, he decided to blackmail Robert by writing an article about his experiences with him in American papers. I told him to get a good lawyer if he were to do so, but he went ahead alone and had to deal with Mr. Lawyer A.G., who blackmailed him back, using his knowledge of certain circumstances of the boy’s life. The whole thing was settled for a pitiful $3.000 in exchange for a signature on a paper stating that the information about Robert should not be disclosed to anyone.
May 21, 2007 at 5:19 pm
leaving a teacher is a serious decision and cannot be taken lightly. So please do not blame students for staying in the school. After all the blog is a kind of mass media and the described things are not that obvious in the school itself. Be sure many students pay more attention to what is going on, but to base a departure on mostly annonymous articles would be a mistake.
May 21, 2007 at 6:34 pm
Thank you to the Sheik and to all the voices here, some familiar and many not, who have provided the opportunity to revisit time spent with the FOF many years ago. Recently while working with koans at a zen retreat I was surprised when a chunk of FOF thinking and assumptions surfaced- still alive, functioning, and unquestioned after all these years. Guess I thought I was more done with it (or it with me) than I was. And now coming upon this blog has further stirred the pot.
I was a member of the Fellowship for 5 years, from ’79-’84. By the time I joined Robert had quit public teaching, and I had little direct contact with him. After reading some of the excellent and disturbing posts here, this now seems fortunate, though at the time I just felt unworthy. From our few interactions I got a sense of his power- no doubt with some projection on my part- but I agree that he probably has some abilities and talents which make him seem “conscious”. These talents are not so rare, but rare enough so that when used skillfully they weave a powerful spell. In this case he successfully conjured the fatherly/divine intermediary to “higher states”, and I bought it.
The first few years in FOF were particularly seductive because after years of bohemian wandering a part of me could relax and experience a parent-child dynamic for the first time since childhood. It was a novelty and a relief to have a structure- exercises and studies and particular music and art, food and wine, the vineyard, and all in the service of awakening! A lot of the people FOF attracted were extraordinary, and the work knowledge sometimes worked. The emphasis on beauty in an often sordid world, the meetings and conversations, dinners and drinking, plays and concerts actually did produce cracks in old, ingrained habits and thought patterns, releasing plenty of joy and energy. Not much body involvement, but heady stuff indeed!
After a while questions came up, trouble in paradise, the kid sees the zipper on the Santa suit (open)- and the response was to abuse these favorite ideas- the dissonance of discriminating mind squelched repeatedly as “negativity”, or rationalizing the emergence of conscience as “unnecessary suffering”, as I think I did for a while after learning about some of the lying and sexual scandals in ’83. I continued to be a “bad student” and saw old friends and family, doing what I increasingly felt was right, and eventually left the group. In a way I see that my weaknesses were protective here. I am so sorry some of you were hurt while you were involved. I wish you healing.
Eventually it came to feel that one of the core problems with FOF (by no means exclusively) is the old familiar “us and them” stance, used since ancient times to control, invalidate, and make war upon other human beings, other species and even the planet itself. It is subtle and pervasive and extends itself deep into our psychology where we torture ourselves and others with it. It has nothing to do with anything like awakening.
I am thankful to FOF for receiving a “vaccination” against this type of thought which seems to be gaining strength in the various religious fundamentalist movements across the world right now, and causing so much suffering. I think Sandra C. mentioned this as well. (so great to hear you Sandra !) The uncertainty and complexity of post- modernity is scary, and it’s a very human desire to want to retreat back to a time when the parent/child dynamic was strong and mother and father knew best. Same goes for teacher, preacher, etc.
Caveat emptor!
It is a delight to hear many voices from years ago, still full of humanity and fire and sweetness and grouchiness and….
May 21, 2007 at 6:51 pm
From Burton’s book “Self-Remembering.”
[The following is posted as a review of the content of the book and comes under fair use provisions.]
“A cataclysmic disaster may be imminent that could be a prelude to hydrogen warfare. If California fell, there would be no major population center near Renaissance and so the coast would be clear.” (page 53)
“Almost all of Christ’s disciples died an unnatural death. We must talk of these things to prepare us for what is to come. Enduring suffering, one takes up one’s own cross. We are chosen to play these roles.” (page 87)
“They [C Influence] have given us some prophecies that are facts for them but, until they turn into facts for us, they must be called prophecies.” (page 142)
“Influence C ushers us to Heaven’s gate.” (page 151)
“We have been chosen by Influence C to awaken, while almost all others have an indifferent fate. That is, they are left alone to a great extent by higher forces. Influence C wants something for us: an astral body. And they want something from us: an ark to survive hydrogen warfare.” (page 155)
“Hydrogen warfare seems inevitable, and one no longer has to be a prophet to predict it. Incredible events may happen in our lives, and I will be very surprised if anything but us survives.” (page 156)
“We are truly involved in tremendous events, such as hydrogen warfare, and yet these events favor us because they have evoked a school on earth from higher forces.” (page 161)
“I still have considerable difficulty transforming negative emotions, primarily due to the violence of the suffering I must absorb to lift a school and humanity out of the chaos of impending hydrogen warfare.” (page 176)
“Our school will produce seven conscious beings. Apollo will not reach its peak for centuries or millennia. Our school is one of the greatest schools in recorded history, and that is why suffering is so abundant.” (page 185)
Seven decades ago Ouspensky stated the obvious: “Consciousness is not functions.”
Strangely, it seems necessary after decades of influence from people like Ouspensky to state another obvious and yet often misunderstood law: “Psychosis is not consciousness.”
Those still behind us, those still working with the psychological test known as the Fellowship of Friends, where it is in limbo whether each will ever discover that their state of insanity is below the level of everyday life, do not know what we, those who have passed the test of developing ‘critical mind’, know: the Fellowship of Friends is a school of imagination (depression-1984, fall of California-1998, “hydrogen warfare”-2006). There is no consciousness there, instead they mistake the intensified hydrogens of World 192 as something higher. They mistake psychosis for consciousness. Some of us that have moved up now understand the difference between extreme identification with an egomaniac that mistakes himself as someone important to the scheme of world events and the necessary sanity required to actually do genuine work. The Fellowship of Friends was created by C influence as a test for rising beings in order to teach them the difference between the lure of madness and the requisite reasonableness of real consciousness. Those of us that have gone through the FOF have developed an indispensable understanding, we can now recognize the difference between the enticements of madness and the nature of higher consciousness. Those of us that have worked our way up out of that ridiculous barrier now have no doubts: we have ascended with more possibilities and far more consciousness than anyone left behind.
GWG
May 21, 2007 at 7:10 pm
To the ranters and flamers:
(ManNumberSeven, Prior Young Worker, et al)
It seems to me there’s a big difference between the people who post here anonymously in order to tell a personal history that might be embarrassing or might compromise their current life, and those of you who hide your identity simply to insult, attack, or flame other posters.
Certainly I have many regrets about my time infof, although I was never on the “organizational” side and, like many others, actually knew almost no details of rb’s sex crimes until the Buzbee case, right after I left.
I began apologizing to people I had influenced in 1994, and have been apologizing on this blog since page 6, sometimes for offhand remarks made maybe 25 years ago.
But I don’t really have much patience for those of you who seem to have used me or others as objects by which you justify your own self-loathing. Should I apologize for that?
On some level, everyone is engaged in their own very personal struggle. I sense that we’ll do better if we try to be kind to ourselves.
JoelF
May 21, 2007 at 7:12 pm
It was mentioned before that it takes time to “open your eyes”. Something has to happen, something very personal and strong, a sobering shock of some kind to shake you up. It eventually happens to most students sooner or later – and they suddenly see what they buffered before. But until then – it’s like a closed shell – nothing penetrates and all one produces is buffers and canned phrases. Dear Siddiq, I know where you’re coming from. I completely understand – been there myself.
I was under a happy spell for many years, until this big RB event at our house…This when I suddenly got the first glimpse of an uncomfortable feeling that may be we all are being dooped. Strangely, but before this event I saw nothing wrong, heard nothing wrong and would defend the school like it was my own home – just like you do now.
Our center had to prepare for big Tea. Our center didn’t have money to rent a large space in the city so we were asked if our house could be used. At that time it was a total construction zone, but we agreed – and gladly so! And we went nuts, preparing for this event and spent thousands of dollars just to make it nice doing temporary improvements just for this event. We even built a temporary wooden fence to disguise the dumpster in front of the house… Of course we never even asked for reimbursement – there wasn’t even a thought about it! All was done from our heart, sincerely, and we didn’t care how much it costs us… We were good students.
And Robert arrived, and briefly gave his usual keys performance with Asaf, and everyone stared in silence with smiles and glossy eyes. No one haven’t even touched the fine French pastries or tea… I was seated on the couch next to my Teacher and I was in total heaven, listening to his voice so close to me, smelling his fine cologne and feeling the flavor of pastries in my mouth… Yes, I was actually eating the whole time. Love those pastries, can’t help it! It was caught on camera, and later quite few of my friends called me to tell how shocked they were to see me eat and drink at Teaching Tea.
The event was over, and Robert rushed to the door. And then the ugly “cuff link scene” occurred. Robert was rushing his boys to run get the car, to get to the city quickly, before the jeweler closes… One of them asked: Robert, do you really want these cuff links?” – “Yes, yes! I told you. I want them! Hurry up, get the car, let’s go. Now. Quickly. Call him, now, make sure he is still open…” His face was tense, he sounded… just like an identified angry guy. Yes, he was very identified. I have never seen my teacher like that, although I heard stories before.
My boyfriend and I were allowed to stand nearby and so we heard every word. Suddenly he turned to us and gave us one of those peaceful loving smiles… The smile we know and love so much… That makes you feel OK…
But I felt so bad. I felt deception. I felt like this was all fake and we were just taken, used by this powerful man… He just used us, our friends and our house to make good money on his brief performance and now is done with us and rushing to get what he wants. And doesn’t give a damn about this huge crowd of devoted students, who love him and made huge efforts to travel to our place from all over just to spend time with him… A stupid piece of jewelry was – obviously – so much more important to him than all of us.
I had mixed thoughts in my head, I couldn’t understand, justify, explain all this. And it only got worse, when I returned to the kitchen. I saw that all these polite good students, who were just nobly “preferring presence over food” in front of the Teacher, were now devouring pastries right from the plates by the sink, using their hands, stuffing their mouths like hungry beasts! This was just hysterical. The falseness and hypocrisy of the whole thing was unbearable.
I suddenly saw things in a different light.
This event was a first wake-up call for me. I still needed few more like this, and I had them soon after that. I guess everybody has to have theirs to pry open their shell.
Question to Siddiq and Howard Carter (or anyone who wishes to answer) – do you ever see any hypocrisy and falseness in Robert, in Council actions, students behavior, in teaching events? Ever?
If yes – what do you say to yourself about it? I am really curious.
May 21, 2007 at 7:15 pm
Howard Carter #379
“The ones who stay do so because to them there is no point in leaving.”
Prime example of a psychological double bind.
from Wikipedia:
Explanation
“The (psychological) double bind is often misunderstood to be a simple Catch-22 situation, where the victim is trapped by two conflicting demands. While it is true that at the core of the double bind are two conflicting demands, the difference lies in how they are imposed upon the victim, what the victim’s understanding of the situation is, and who imposes these demands upon the victim.
(You must give up your will to the teacher or school to be free. There is only one real school on earth.)
Unlike the usual no-win situation, the victim is largely unaware of the exact nature of the paradoxical situation he or she is in. (new student or young student vs older student) This is because a demand is imposed upon them by someone they regard with respect, and the demand itself is inherently impossible to fulfill.
(To make a machine conscious and immortal that is the ultimate task. Be a conscious toaster oven!)
(Gregory) Bateson defines the double bind as follows:
The situation involves two or more persons, (FOF) one of whom is designated, for the purposes of definition, as the “victim” (student). The others are people who are in some way in a higher position to the victim, for example a figure of authority such as a parent whom the victim respects.
(Teacher, man number 7.3, brightest light in 2,000 years, older student, take your pick)
Repeated experience. The double bind is a recurrent theme (fourth way work language) in the experience of the victim and as such cannot be constituted as a single traumatic experience.
A primary injunction is imposed upon the victim by the other person in one of two forms: (a) Do “X”, or I will punish you. (b) Do not do “X”, or I will punish you. The punishment is assumed to be either the withdrawing of love, the expression of hate and anger, or abandonment resulting from the authority figure’s expression of extreme helplessness.
(If you leave the school, I/we will shun you. Do not confront me or question me or you will be asked to leave the school.)
A secondary injunction is imposed upon the victim that conflicts with the first at a higher and more abstract level. For example, “Do what I told you but only do it because you want to.” However, it is not necessary that this injunction be expressed verbally.
(I am a conscious being. No matter what I do, no matter how you feel about it, you must obey me. I am your direct link to influence c. Do not trust yourself, it is your king of clubs wanting you to leave.)
If necessary, a tertiary injunction is imposed upon the victim to prevent them from escaping the dilemma.
(If you leave the school, you lose your soul and wander among the multitudes of sleeping life people. You must stay and pay.)
Finally, Bateson states that the complete list of the previous requirements may be unnecessary in the event that the victim is already viewing their world in double bind patterns.
(Magnetic center angst makes a nice prerequisite.)
Bateson goes on to give the general characteristics of such a relationship: When the victim is involved in an intense relationship; that is, a relationship in which he feels it is vitally important that he discriminate accurately what sort of message is being communicated so that he may respond appropriately.
(If I don’t play along with the number game (ideas fo reference) and “verify” influcence-c I could lose the school. To be a good student, I must read the signs, too.)
And, the victim is caught in a situation in which the other person in the relationship is expressing two orders of message and one of these denies the other.
(Be more conscious AND put up with my pervison and greed.)
And, the victim is unable to comment on the messages being expressed to correct his discrimination of what order of message to respond to, i.e., he cannot make a metacommunicative statement.
(The lower cannot see the higher, duh.)
Thus the essence of a double-bind is two conflicting demands, neither of which can be ignored, which leave the victim torn both ways in such a way that whichever demand they try to meet, the other demand cannot be met. “I must do it but I can’t do it” is a typical description of the double-bind experience.
(I must be more present and conscious, but I am unable to sustain it for any length of time. I must stay in the school and ingest my feelings no matter how much new INSANITY Robert spews out.)
For a double bind to be effective, the victim cannot plainly see that the demand placed on them by the primary injunction is in direct conflict with the secondary injunction.
In this sense the double bind differentiates itself from a simple contradictory Catch-22 to a more inexpressible internal conflict where the victim vigorously wants to meet the demands of the primary injunction but fails each time because the victim fails to see that the situation is completely incompatible with the demands of the secondary injunction. Thus victims may express feelings of extreme anxiety in such a situation (or take wine, antidepressants or both)as they attempt to fulfill the demands of the primary injunction, but are met with obvious contradictions in their actions.
For example, a common double bind in western culture are the marriage vows taken by the bride and groom when they make an oath to love each other until death (HC:People come to a school to know themselves and that is a lifetime endeavor). In this situation, the primary injunction is the oath itself, and the secondary injunction is that which is imposed onto them by their society, that their love must be true. Thus a conflict arises in their relationship if either party falls out of love with the other(or realizes they have been deluded), but attempts to fulfill their obligation to the oath (I must make more efforts!). The more he or she tries to love the other, the less genuine their love is. (the FOF ultimately undermines your evolution the longer you stay.)
The double bind was originally presented as a situation that could possibly lead to schizophrenia if imposed upon young children, or simply those with unstable and weak personalities (Hmmm, now who could that be?). Creating a situation where the victim could not make any comment or “metacommunicative statement” about their dilemma (the lower cannot see the higher) would, in theory, escalate their state of mental anxiety. (Brian S. perhaps?)
The solution to a double-bind is to place the problem in a larger context….(THE BLOG!!)…(otherwise the victim will) create an escape from the conflicting logical demands of the double bind into the world of the delusional system (RB’s FOF, sequence, etc).”
I rest my case.
WhaleRider
1979-1985
May 21, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Dear all,
Pay little attention to the lyric (when eareable!) for the, al least one intesterting apparent paradoxical formulated wish:
“… I’m gone do what I don’t want to do.
I’m gone live my life…
Have a nice day!”.
May 21, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Dear Elena and all,
I have been pondering and observing ‘lying’ with the working conclusion that most everyone will consciously lie when a threat to survival is perceived. perceiving is a much deeper matter than being present (which often has a bit of “I’m holding my breath till I get what I want” about it). then I read Simon’s post:
Simon
“This is just part of my story and I’m sure there are many similar in nature. But the question which continues to intrigue me is: what is it that draws us to a place like the Fellowship Of Friends, which on hindsight is so obviously a cult? More than that, what duped us into remaining for so long – in some cases half our natural life time”
And then Cimarron’s really well written and fascinating post #356. Thank you for that!
So, I would like to share a personal story which is sensitive and if you know me from this -please- respect my anonymity. As a child I grew up around an adult psychopath. He was everything Cimarron listed “THE ABILITY OF FAKING NOBLE HUMAN QUALITIES, CHARMING, VERY MANIPULATIVE, CAPABLE OF INSPIRING LOVE IN SOMETIMES FANATICAL DEGREE IN OTHERS, USES HIS ABILITY WITH WORDS TO TALK HIS WAY OUT OF TROUBLE,”- we children LOVED him – he was different and bright eyed and completely compelling. He had a beautiful voice and was intimate with God and angels – had long conversations with them. He was (I found out later) an extreme sex addict but all us children knew was that he was a special man. Then he murdered his children. Of course we all went over how we could have let that happen afterwards. But he WAS different. I still have grief and shock.
I don’t know the proper words for this, scientific or poetic, but after reading this psychopathic man’s writings and discovering his history, I think he did not have what could be called ‘conscience’.
When I joined the fof I did not meet RB for a couple of years. Only after I moved to Renaissance. I was already very deeply moved by the community and only saw RB occasionally (OK you’ve guessed I’m a female). But soon I started having some very uncomfortable feelings and sensations and thoughts about and around him. I realized his conscience is not working and he is not aware of that at all – maybe a partial description of psychopath.
Most everyone here left as a matter of conscience. But as Simon wondered about what drew us to RB… People who have no conscience are without doubt. The adult psychopath I was close to as a child was convinced that God and the “Good Angels” had told him to murder his children. Never had a doubt. He was incurable like Cimarron said.
If there is never any doubt— the person never lies. There is no connection with ‘truth’ -whatsoever- that is larger than that person. There is NO truth that could exist for anyone else. But it also makes that person deeply compelling to healthier persons. Really, conscience is often a big burden. It is humbling and makes life much more work. The psychopath seems so free and their consciousness is so sparkly and energetic.
So, personally, that connection was very weird for me- but my experience with RB in some ways addressed and let me heal some of my childhood experiences. It allowed me to leave relatively quickly. As I’ve matured the two connections have become clearer. And as I still carry deep love for that group of children – my cohorts – I still feel that for fof folks.
On another note: “Anonymous” – are you still around? I had the impression of you from your last post of a very sincere person who feels actual heartbreak when a friend leaves. I’m wondering if you are an old friend of mine (I have someone in mind). After one incident, I always broke that rule – went out of my way to. Since I was really a nobody, nobody noticed. But why do you keep that rule? If we were aliens looking down on earth wouldn’t that seem rather sad? Hope you are still around.
Best wishes to everyone.
May 21, 2007 at 9:28 pm
Compulsive Sexual Behavior, unsafe sex, homosexual Narcissists, what are these things? Let’s hear what the doctor says.
Homosexual and Transsexual Narcissists
By: Dr. Sam Vaknin
samvak.tripod.com/development.rtf
Question:
What is the typical profile of a homosexual narcissist? Why is he always on a lookout for new victims? Is he lying or is he telling the truth when he says that he “wants to get laid” by one and all? If he is not suicidal, is he not afraid of AIDS?
Answer:
I am a heterosexual and thus deprived of an intimate acquaintance with certain psychological processes, which allegedly are unique to homosexuals. I find it hard to believe that there are such processes, to begin with. Research failed to find any substantive difference between the psychological make-up of a narcissist who happens to have homosexual preferences – and a heterosexual narcissist.
They both are predators, devouring Narcissistic Supply Sources as they go. Narcissists look for new victims, the way tigers look for prey – they are hungry. Hungry for adoration, admiration, acceptance, approval, and any other kind of attention. Old sources die easy – once taken for granted, the narcissistic element of conquest vanishes.
Conquest is important because it proves the superiority of the narcissist. The very act of subduing, subjugating, or acquiring the power to influence someone provides the narcissist with Narcissistic Supply. The newly conquered idolise the narcissist and serve as a trophies.
The act of conquering and subordinating is epitomized by the sexual encounter – an objective and atavistic interaction. Making love to someone means that the consenting partner finds the narcissist (or one or more of his traits, such as his intelligence, his physique, even his money) irresistible.
The distinction between passive and active sexual partners is mechanical, false, superfluous and superficial. Penetration does not make one of the parties “the stronger one”. To cause someone to have sex with you is a powerful stimulus – and always provokes a sensation of omnipotence. Whether one is physically passive or active – one is always psychosexually active.
Anyone who has unsafe sex is gambling with his life – though the odds are much smaller than public hysteria would have us believe. Reality does not matter, though – it is the perception of reality that matters. Getting this close to (perceived) danger is the equivalent of engaging in self-destruction (suicide). Narcissists are, at times, suicidal and are always self-destructive.
There is, however, one element, which might be unique to homosexuals: the fact that their self-definition hinges on their sexual identity. I know of no heterosexual who would use his sexual preferences to define himself almost fully. Homosexuality has been inflated to the level of a sub-culture, a separate psychology, or a myth. This is typical of persecuted minorities. However, it does have an influence on the individual. Preoccupation with body and sex makes most homosexual narcissists SOMATIC narcissists.
Moreover, the homosexual makes love to a person of the SAME sex – in a way, to his REFLECTION. In this respect, homosexual relations are highly narcissistic and autoerotic affairs.
The somatic narcissist directs his libido at his body (as opposed to the cerebral narcissist, who concentrates upon his intellect). He cultivates it, nourishes and nurtures it, is often an hypochondriac, dedicates an inordinate amount of time to its needs (real and imaginary). It is through his body that this type of narcissist tracks down and captures his Supply Sources.
The supply that the somatic narcissist so badly requires is derived from his form, his shape, his build, his profile, his beauty, his physical attractiveness, his health, his age. He downplays Narcissistic Supply directed at other traits. He uses sex to reaffirm his prowess, his attractiveness, or his youth. Love, to him, is synonymous with sex and he focuses his learning skills on the sexual act, the foreplay and the coital aftermath.
Seduction becomes addictive because it leads to a quick succession of Supply Sources. Naturally, boredom (a form of transmuted aggression) sets in once the going gets routine. Routine is counter-narcissistic by definition because it threatens the narcissist’s sense of uniqueness.
An interesting side issue relates to transsexuals.
Philosophically, there is little difference between a narcissist who seeks to avoid his True Self (and positively to become his False Self) – and a transsexual who seeks to discard his true gender. But this similarity, though superficially appealing, is questionable.
People sometimes seek sex reassignment because of advantages and opportunities which, they believe, are enjoyed by the other sex. This rather unrealistic (fantastic) view of the other is faintly narcissistic. It includes elements of idealised over-valuation, of self-preoccupation, and of objectification of one’s self. It demonstrates a deficient ability to empathise and some grandiose sense of entitlement (“I deserve to be taken care of”) and omnipotence (“I can be whatever I want to be – despite nature/God”).
This feeling of entitlement is especially manifest in some gender dysphoric individuals who aggressively pursue hormonal or surgical treatment. They feel that it is their inalienable right to receive it on demand and without any strictures or restrictions. For instance, they oftentimes refuse to undergo psychological evaluation or treatment as a condition for the hormonal or surgical treatment.
It is interesting to note that both narcissism and gender dysphoria are early childhood phenomena. This could be explained by problematic Primary Objects, dysfunctional families, or a common genetic or biochemical problem. It is too early to say which. As yet, there isn’t even an agreed typology of gender identity disorders – let alone an in-depth comprehension of their sources.
A radical view, proffered by Ray Blanchard, seems to indicate that pathological narcissism is more likely to be found among non-core, ego-dystonic, autogynephilic transsexulas and among heterosexual transvestites. It is less manifest in core, ego-syntonic, homosexual transsexuals.
Autogynephilic transsexuals are subject to an intense urge to become the opposite sex and, thus, to be rendered the sexual object of their own desire. In other words, they are so sexually attracted to themselves that they wish to become both lovers in the romantic equation – the male and the female. It is the fulfilment of the ultimate narcissistic fantasy with the False Self as a fetish (“narcissistic fetish”).
Autogynephilic transsexuals start off as heterosexuals and end up as either bisexual or homosexual. By shifting his/her attentions to men, the male autogynephilic transsexual “proves” to himself that he has finally become a “true” and desirable woman.
May 21, 2007 at 9:40 pm
383 Man Number .07…”people enter a school or cult because that is where they are supposed to be, not because they are fooled initially or later trapped”‘
I agree.
“From what I could see – people that went behind closed doors with Robert went there because they wanted to”.
Utterly moronic and incorrect, and very near-sighted.
“They loved the attention, they loved being close to Robert, and they loved how others looked upon them.”
While sometimes generally true, specifically not true as a generality, so again a moronic supposition.
“People are simply a bunch of crybabies”.
Another moronic generality coming, no doubt, from that higher place you developed in the FOF while you were having the time of your life.
Unbelievable.
May 21, 2007 at 9:54 pm
You-me-us-they (#329)
>> “Could we have less quotes from the Eagles and David Crosby please! One of the clear advantages of the FOF is that I rarely have to listen to bland AOR rock.”
When I got in touch with one of Metallica’s videos (thanks to Unoanimo! and to Sheik giving him a stage!) I was not so pleased with it. Yet, I gave it a try and some words imposed themselves by the truth they carryied.
Metallica… Harder than rock, I belive it is even called Hard Rock!
The words did not come as a statement (better perhaps?) but as a question.
I already quoted these words but I will do again with the hope you will let me know if really you can’t benefit from them as much as you benefit from Plato, Socrates, Walt Whitman, Rilke, and, now the more “à la mode” in the FOF, Hafiz, Rumi, and the “recluse”, among many others…
>>
I guess I was being a bit snotty. I like lots of rock music but the Eagles were always the epitome of bland commercial rock to me. I love Neil young, but not David Crosby. The lyrics to Hotel California are more interesting than I expected. But I still wince everytime the Eagles come on the radio.
May 21, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Thanks for that Alice in Wonder… (398)
You’ve touched upon several really interesting and thought provoking points there – which seem to make sense – to me at least, who was at one time going down the psychopathic route, as my conscience slowly atrophied.
I recall a time when I too tried to have an answer for everything, by investing it with “my” truth.
But then I tapped into the Truth with the big T and after that I felt kind of helpless – but grateful at the same time.
Now I thank God every day that I don’t have an answer for everything. I love the mystery, I love the opportunity to exercise my creative imagination and the freedom this brings…
Simon
Incidentally, to the person who very recently sent me an e-mail. I was about to reply but it mysteriously disappeared out of my inbox into the ether. So just to let you know I’m ignoring you.
May 21, 2007 at 11:35 pm
385 Half Life: “Yes, I accept the the truth of these postings and I do accept that RB may be suffering from a psychopathic personality disorder. And yes, it is a cult for those who have the need to believe in the bizzare fantasies spun by RB. For those who do not have the ability to think for themselves it is even a dangerous environement; but, for them, so is life…….we regarded RB from afar as a liability or a sort of a ‘libidinal’ phenomenon that has to be tolerated or studied from afar as a dangerous paradox.”
Interesting post – you describe an unusual stance for a Fellowship student, at least in my experience. It seems strange that you would keep on making the enormous donations, or working for almost nothing on salary, while believing that Robert Burton, who after all decides pretty much everything about the Fellowship teaching, is a “liability”. What’s the point of remaining in the school if you don’t believe the teacher? But maybe I’m not understanding you correctly.
May 21, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Who is to blame, the chicken (the ‘wise’ bird who knows it can’t fly – RB) or the egg (students)? Read this Sufi story and see if you can figure it out…
“Once upon a time there was bird which did not have the power of flight. Like a chicken, he walked about on the ground, although he knew that some birds did fly. It so happened that, through a combination of circumstances, the egg of a flying bird was incubated by this flightless one. In due time the chick came forth, still with the potentiality for flight which he had always had, even from the time he was in the egg. It spoke to its foster-parent, saying: “When will I fly?” And the landbound bird said: “Persist in your attempts to fly, just like the others.” For he did not know how to take the fledgling for its lesson in flying: even how to topple it from the nest so that it might learn. And it is curious, in a way, that the young bird did not see this. His recognition of the situation was confused by the fact that he felt gratitude to the bird who had hatched him. “Without this service,” he said to himself, “surely I would still be in the egg?” And, again, sometimes he said to himself: “Anyone who can hatch me, surely he can teach me to fly. It must be just a matter of time, or of my own unaided efforts, or of some great wisdom: yes, that is it. Suddenly one day I will be carried to the next stage by him who has brought me thus far.”
May 21, 2007 at 11:58 pm
To Hava Nagillah 384
Good your you.
God of your own little play!
May 22, 2007 at 1:06 am
From Elena
Post #370 from ‘I see’ said the blind man Says, “Assuming that the Fellowship of Friends is actually a bogus organization…”
“what should one do?”
The question is one of conscience, consciousness.If one is serious about presence one’s being is in one’s movements, as much as in one’s emotions and one’s thoughts. There is no consciousness without functions, there are conscious functions; there is conscious life.
Within the boundaries of my body, the food, the clothes, the water that feed me, dress me, bathe me have come from the beyond me of nature and other people’s work. When in the Fellowship of Friends is nature or other people’s work acknowledge? The whole being of the world is neglected by this disacknowledgement. Within the Fellowship, not even the student’s work is acknowledged. Only Robert is acknowledged. A poor human being.
Within the boundaries of my heart, your being is received by mine in the openness with which I hear the words spoken by you; in the openness with which I appreciate you with my eyes; in the warmth with which my hands confirm my arm’s embrace.
Within the boundaries of my thoughts, the lawfulness of reasoning fits like a glove in the community that embraces us and allows us to be one with the other.
There is no community where we cannot embrace beyond the formal kiss. Is that what you are so willing to settle for?
No community where some think they have better rights to decide for others and no individuality where any one human being gives up his will. Giving up one’s will in our times is selling one’s soul to the devil. One must be willing to struggle with one’s own will without giving it up to any body else because when it is given up, there’s no need to struggle. This is the tragedy of the men in the Fellowship who gave up their will to Robert and then had to give up their wives, their children, their friends, themselves, to remain in the school and pretend that it is lawful to live a double life that half supports the school and half supports the people they wish to love. The sickness of this figure speaks for itself of the sickness that divided fellowship students into two people, to definite personalities who had to live a life in life and live an imaginary spirituality within the Fellowship of Friends. It is ironic that they are being abandoned by Robert because there is not enough money for them and the new generation and they feel they did not become conscious enough to be able to demand some kind of retribution for their lives work. They have lost the sense of value of their own work.
We have all suffered this abnormality in different degrees and have degraded ourselves to support Robert Burton, an authority with insignificant human values.
Moving from authority means becoming authority. It means, knowing that for the rest of your life you are willing to not allow for anything that happens around you to go unchecked. There may be a thousand things that one cannot solve but there are a million things that one can take care of. Consciousness is not an abstract state in which you are one with the Gods, consciousness for a wo/man means a state in which you bare the burden of your humanity and carry it on your shoulders for the rest of your life without feeling miserable at having been given the play that you in fact, chose with the pride of knowing it is what you are strong enough to carry. Not knowing this is not knowing yourself. There is no consciousness in an individual without a community in the fourth way.
The way of life, is, the way of the community. It is the way in which the Absolute makes itself present in World 192 after transforming world 96. The world of false personality transformed into the world of true personality to catapult the being of world 24, 12, 6 and 3 into life; a living community. It is influence C filling influence A with meaning, not sucking the energy out of life to support a bubbly brothel.
It is not in the height of the state that you can measure your consciousness with, it is in the way you drink your tea, listen to others, drive your car.
The forms within the Fellowship demand that you greet your friends with a kiss, but have no lawful instances where you can question each other’s thoughts and emotions, movements and manners. It stands for what is civilized without allowing the students to civilize themselves. It demands that you treat Robert with the considerateness that you and everyone else around you would be treated in a conscious school or a civilized community and in as much as you give yourself up for only one person in your community to be treated with the considerateness that you yourself deserve, you practice a relationship in which you are inner considering yourself and not the other. Inner considering means giving up one’s self to the other, wether it is in how others value one, or how one devalues one’s self. There is no lawfulness in this relationship and anyone that is willing to stand above you and demand that he/she be treated in a way that he/she is not willing to treat you back, is using and abusing your life being, your love and energy. Never allow any man to treat you any less than you are treating him.
What you should do, as you ask, is know that you cannot ask anyone what you should do. That in your question is the horror of a wo/man that has allowed for too long to be told how things should be.
We did like the dream of a conscious community and payed with our being for a few roses. The gardens of Isis have been built with the measure of our beinglessness. We gave up struggling with each other for pretty dresses and empty kisses, we gave up the necessary friction to mold diamonds and settled for deformed essences.
If you listen to Siddiq you now hear the justification that no community is perfect, it is not that it is not perfect Siddiq, it is that it is not human and for the Last Conscious School on the planet, for the community and School that a supposed man number seven has developed, it should at least be human enough to not divide people into two weird personalities filled with buffers. Look around you, find out what is happening to people in your community and know that it is discarding people who worked for it all their lives. Friends discarding friends convinced that Robert will keep them secure but Robert will only look after himself.
May 22, 2007 at 1:12 am
Fellow Bloggers,
Sorry if I have posted this one before, but this guy talks so much sense, and I love the fact that he challenges the beliefs that words represent truth and ongoing effort is necessary:
Has it occurred to others that the ‘higher states’, and wonderful experiences we had in the Fellowship were merely some kind of ‘group emotion’, that can be evoked by participating in religious groups, football crowds, maybe even shopping malls, stemming from a need to belong. How many others having left the FOF found themselves seeking this again? If you keep watching without justifying, you may find that ‘spiritual seeking’ is as much of a trap as any other lusting for what is not.
May 22, 2007 at 1:23 am
This blog has helped re-define the term Robert acts.
During my days in the Fellowship of Friends, I often heard people use this expression to indicate “a student imitating Robert Burton, often without being aware of it, in an attempt to appear conscious or a ‘good student’ in the eyes of others.”
After reading this blog for a few weeks, it’s becoming apparent that the “act” that we should have been more concerned about was the act coming from Robert Burton himself — the mannerisms that he himself used to appear conscious, benevolent, thoughtful, kind, wise, and so on. For example, as so many people have noticed over the years, RB often tilts his head to the side, or he often looks down in a crowded room as though feeling humility, or he sometimes crosses his arms and rubs his chin (a thoughtful pose), or he walks very slowly, or he talks very quietly — not a bad set of postures and mannerisms if you want to appear guru-like.
Students in-the-know would often criticize those sleeping masses of FOF students who applied these same mannerisms. “Be yourself, dude. Stop imitating Robert.” Ok, sure, that’s always been worth mentioning. Howard Carter, for example, has a type of “Robert act” in the way he writes. But who has the most significant Robert act?
That would be Robert Burton.
And it’s a very impressive act when you consider how many he has fooled with it. And included in that group would be me.
May 22, 2007 at 1:39 am
An incident that maybe sheds light on the question so many have: why did I (you)stay if you ‘knew’ what was going on?
Scene: Thanksgiving at my house with 12-14 guests, my parents included. I am in my early 40s, with a young daughter, husband…After dinner, we are all sitting around the living room, my father is standing up talking to one of the guests. I, my mother and a few others are sitting on two couches (L-shape). I am sitting kitty-corner from my mother about ten feet away from my father in front of me.
My mother says something, apparently, not to my father’s liking. He turns and with a great deal of force throws a small football he is holding at her and hits her in the face. (He was a college running back in his day). My mother winces, looks indignant and glares at him with the ‘I will get you later’ look.
Throughout this event, I sit there, stunned in silence. My father immediately makes a joke of his behavior. Soon afterwards, I get up to take care of something. About half an hour later, I am in my room looking for something, and I need to sit down as it dawns on me. ‘Ohmygod, he threw the football at her and hit her in the face in an outburst of rage.’
Here is the wierd part: While I was in the same room with him, I DID NOT EVEN REGISTER that he hit her, even though I was sitting there watching it with my own eyes.
When I did register it, half an hour later, I felt outraged, dizzy with anger even, and determined I had to say something to him, ‘Not in my house, never again,etc.’, But although a few hours passed before they left, I could not get up the courage to approach him. Nor could I call him and confront him, although I vowed I would. (A few years later, I finally did).
Mostly, I was in shock to realize the time delay in letting my perception connect with my conscious mind. I realized that it probably occured much more often that I simply did not let myself see things I could not bear to see, did not know how to react to, things that might threaten my own safety.
I realized that as part of my family trance, we agreed not to ‘see’ my father’s violence (among a number of other damaging parental behaviors). Another, stunning aspect of the trance I learned about later: When my father went to therapy with me once as a favor, he actually sincerely denied ever striking my mother, which I could not believe because it happened often. “Well, I might have shaken her once or twice.” Apparently, perpetrators split off parts of themselves too that cause harm, minimize the behavior, call it something else.
Our psyche is amazing. The degree of unconsciousness, numbing, denial, projection — all those terms are not just psychobabble — that we are capable of is humbling, especially to the rational ‘intellectual’ self-image so many of us carry.
Am I sorry that I have been subject to these kinds of mental states, yes? Do I blame my family? Do I blame Robert Burton? Not any more. Instead more often these days I have so much more respect for what I don’t know about myself. I try to keep this in mind when I find myself being certain about anything!
You decide if this applies to the situation in FoF, I think it does.
sandra
May 22, 2007 at 1:46 am
Lust for Life Says,
That means that you probably have never experienced a third state or if you have, it was too short to detect.
Words are limited in the attempt to describe a higer statet, but words is what we have here.
A third state is not any of those functions you mentioned. During a third state there are reactions on the functional level, yet the state itself is none of those.
It is not an emotion on the regular level and it is not a set of thoughts of any kind.
A third state is an exceeding state of presence.
It is never too late to try again and again.
May 22, 2007 at 2:13 am
Some numbers.
Since the Fellowship stopped updating their beautiful graphs in December 2006 and the last overview data available is from February 2007, a more accurate picture of the population of the school is hard to get. The individual centre population counts, though often also one or two months behind reality (centre book-keepers must report people joining and leaving – Isis has no way to know otherwise, and these reports are often delayed), are more current. I added those figures up and compared them against the February 2007 “overview” figures. For Tokyo, “Mediterranean” and “Miscellaneous”, stable numbers are assumed as either the February or current data are missing.
The results:
Total students in February: 2085
Total students as of 21 May 1726
35 new students joined, making the total departures since February 394. The majority of these are from Isis – 317.
Given the huge extra donation that was due 1 April, I suspect there is a substantial block of students who are currently “behind” in their donations, having either decided not to financially support the organization any more or simply trying to decide whether to remain. It is an old tradition, fully supported by comments from Robert over the years, that Renaissance/Apollo/Isis sets the pace for the rest of the school, and that other centres always react more slowly to changes. The numbers so far seem to confirm that; the wave of departures from centres is yet to come.
To save you the trouble, I will supply the RB quote myself: “Forget the numbers and just remember yourself” – Robert (number 7.x, “brightest light in two thousand years”) to HK when the latter told him he had become a man number five.
May 22, 2007 at 2:22 am
I. Buttocks – this story is true. I heard it too from the guys themselves and from many other students. I’ll never mention any names here for the same reason – I don’t wish any trouble for the guys, both of whom I like very much and wish them well.
Funny how an illegal thing could be almost glorified in the Fellowship of Friends because Robert went against feminine dominance. So many things that are immoral and simply wrong or criminal can be justified and glorified based on a belief that the teacher can do no wrong.
I only wonder if Department of Homeland Security thinks that crossing US or European border under fake name using a forged passport is OK and is no wrong doing… Especially in post-2001 era.
What shocking is that RB went to such risky extreme only with a purpose to get personal sexual pleasure out of these 2 young males. He would have never done a similar thing for a female student or an older male student from a different country.
Many students knew about this story, news spread quickly in Isis. Friends would secretly tell each other: Robert got him a fake passport so he can come here to be with him uder different name, but – psst! – don’t tell anybody it’s a secret…
I guess as long as Robert goes against feminine dominance, doesn’t inner consider and uses intentional insencerity he can do whatever he wants. He can even bend the US law if he wishes and students will have to faithfully keep his secrets.
May 22, 2007 at 2:52 am
lucky to have a friend that e-mails me the juicy parts so that i do not have to slog through the dribble and psychobabble that i read on these pages….please speak english -it is way easier to understand – the work language and debates over arcane points in a old cosmology just buffers (oh my a work term!sorry) our inabilty to speak clearly and meaningfully about what we feel and experience. Of course that is just my opinion…
crimminal? prison? maybe a bit harsh except for the big boss – let’s face it – we all thought we knew what was real and what was not, and we all made concessions to ourselves and made allowances for what we intuitively knew was wrong to somehow make it right in our minds and stay. for the most part we were all adults and made our choices – we all have to live with them either in the cult or not. for some of us who have moved on looking back is both painful and humiliating – to realize what we were willing to both put up with and sacrifice for the illusion of being connected with something that promised us what we desired – and of course it was an illusion then and it remains an illusion now – there is no us or them – there are no angels sitting on robert’s shoulder nor divine guidance for a few chosen. it is just our lives and the choices we make in how to live them. if we are willing to give those choices to another then we have given over the only life we have to live.
And so what if you feel that someone should apologize because they were a pompous prick when they were in FOF and clearly from no one’s point of view were ever “living the words” but rather “living off them”. did you ever tell them what you thought – or were you too hypnotised by their act of consciousness – are you not equally guilty of keeping your mouth shut and trying to look like you were remembering yourself – come on – please….
nothing you are going to say is going to shock someone into either leaving or apologizing for their previous “evil” deeds
if what they have read here has not shocked them enough to pack their work books and move on – give it a rest – try to live your own life as best you can, if possible forgive them and yourself for being young, naive and trusting –
not that i want to make light of the abuse, and all the other sick things that went on and still apparently continue – and for those truly hurt and damaged by it my heart goes out to them – for the rest of us we were complicit – and for those still there you are also…. so sad that it can take 10 20 even 30 years to figure that out……
May 22, 2007 at 3:51 am
No Person #395
In a nutshell: the essence of RB; the “cufflink scene”.
May 22, 2007 at 5:03 am
Blogbuster says – #399
“It is interesting to note that both narcissism and gender dysphoria are early childhood phenomena. This could be explained by problematic Primary Objects, dysfunctional families, or a common genetic or biochemical problem. It is too early to say which. As yet, there isn’t even an agreed typology of gender identity disorders – let alone an in-depth comprehension of their sources.”
Your whole post was very interesting. All this is very recent study. My personal childhood experience with the psychopath was way before psychology had much knowledge other than some crude labels. Back then (60’s) only one adult (my mother) suspected that something was very wrong with this adult. (and btw she was working on a master’s in psychology). He was extremely charming and functioned in his community. But murder is something no one can buffer. The man was sick. If he had gotten away with it, he would have many close defenders. Psychopaths don’t go around advertising themselves as deficient in any way and don’t think of themselves that way AT ALL. This man’s faith in himself was boundless, which made him very magnetic.
Now, I am not saying RB is dangerous! the subject that interests me is conscience and those without it and those who are attracted to that. I am serious when I say it would be a wonderful thing to give up – wonderful in the sense that it would just be so easy and freeing and leave all the room for consciousness. In many ways it would make one a superman. Accepting one’s conscience is a burden – a personal cross to bear. (thanks to Simon for his post #402!)
I realize I’m talking about conscience without defining it which would be useful. I suppose it is as tricky and convoluted as ‘consciousness’ to really define. Maybe it defies a definition bounded by words. But I feel that there is a knowing of what it is – at least in those who are intact in that area. I’d be very interested in other’s definitions and views of the subject.
Best wishes to all.
May 22, 2007 at 6:03 am
“From what I could see – people that went behind closed doors with Robert went there because they wanted to”.
“Utterly moronic and incorrect, and very near-sighted.”
Utterly moronic and incorrect, and very near-sighted.
May 22, 2007 at 6:35 am
As much as it pains me to do this, I must say that i agree with a small portion of the Medusa-like Hava of #353, and want to call attention to the post by Student, 391:
“After all the blog is a kind of mass media and the described things are not that obvious in the school itself. Be sure many students pay more attention to what is going on, but to base a departure on mostly annonymous articles would be a mistake.”
Finally, another voice of reason from within the FOF.
We all talk here about the virtues of verification, and how can I verify the stories on this website? Much of the material on this blog is about as verifiable as the National Enquirer. If it weren’t for personal stories I have heard from vetted friends, and if I hadn’t been around long enough to have known JB and CR and Ames, I would have no basis for understanding many of the posts.
For students, the right use of the anecdotes and stories on this blog might be to start asking questions and see what comes back.
Elena, you are brilliant, and I would be certain to lose any war of words with you. You’re too good at this. I have always been interested in your observations, but you are scaring me. Intellectually, you are engaging and persuasive, emotionally you strike a chord. But you have to back off on carrying out the Saint Elena Rescuer of Students stuff – this country has a first amendment, and I personally think that’s a really good thing. It means that a student can stay in the FOF for as long as it lasts without interference from Righteous Persons. (Ok, there are many Righteous Persons IN the FOF..)
Also, what if you are wrong? It’s not out of the realm of possibility – who reading this can say they know for certain what’s right for someone else, and know the consequences of interfering?
How many of you recall evangelizing for the Fellowship in your first blush of Membership? How many of you alienated your life friends talking about your new teacher? Well, let’s take that in reverse: It’s possible you are now in the first blush of Non-membership.
I think it’s admirable to express your opinion, but you can’t in good conscience actually expect to be dragging people out of there.
Or am I missing your point, taking you too literally?
May 22, 2007 at 6:41 am
Sometimes I wonder.
If the Guru’s taste is young ladies instead of young men…
Would the flock approve of the Guru walking around with a flock of pretty young girls?
Would the flock approve of the Guru keeping the young ladies in luxury condos or villas and buy them clothing, gifts and expensive meals or have group sex?
Would the male followers encourage their wives and daughters to have “relationships” with the Guru so they can experience the higher states?
Would the flock avert its head and say “We do not pass judgement on the Guru’s sex life?”
Is it “No harm done” because they are “only boys”?
May 22, 2007 at 6:46 am
Sandra, Joel, Elena, James, Charles, Ames, and many others: Yes, we definitely want to hear your insights! And PYW, we want to hear yours as well.
I’m so grateful to all of you. In some sense, we’re meeting each other for the first time here on this blog and through countless emails, phone calls, brunches, dinners, parties, and other gatherings. And we’re not meeting each other for the first time in some nebulous, metaphorical sense. In my opinion, we are literally meeting each other for the first time.
Our thoughts are unfiltered, our opinions uncensored, our hearts are open, and our voices are strong.
WhaleRider, and all of you, keep on shouting.
May 22, 2007 at 7:21 am
Thanks Lust for Life 8/407 for the link to Derren Brown videos.
Could it be that a lot of cult leader suffer from Narcissistic Personality Disorder? Why are these self-proclaimed ‘angels’ and ‘gods’ so much after control, power, money and sex?
If you see cult leader who claims to be an angel or Christ, who happens to be not your teacher, you probable find them ridiculous and dangerous. Check your reaction on seeing Jones or Applewhite 8/351
Narcissistic Personality Disorder
Diagnostic Criteria >> see post 8/333
Associated Features
• Vulnerability in self-esteem makes individuals with Narcissistic Personality Disorder very sensitive to “injury” from criticism or defeat. Although they may not show it outwardly, criticism may haunt these individuals and may leave them feeling humiliated, degraded, hollow and empty. They may react with disdain, rage, or defiant counterattack. Such experiences often lead to social withdrawal or an appearance of humility that may mask and protect the grandiosity.
• Interpersonal relations are typically impaired due to problems derived from entitlement, the need for admiration, and the relative disregard for the sensitivities of others.
• Though overweening ambition and confidence may lead to high achievement, performance may be disrupted due to intolerance of criticism or defeat.
• Sometimes vocational functioning can be very low, reflecting an unwillingness to take a risk in competitive or other situations where defeat is possible.
• …
See also
The Cult Characteristics of the Oxford Groups
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-rroot120.html
also of interest if you want to learn about ‘oral fixation’
Caravaggio: The Violent Enlightenment
http://www.albany.edu/scj/jcjpc/vol6is3/shoham.html
May 22, 2007 at 7:36 am
Joseph G.
Alice in Wonder
Rabbi Burns
Radiccio
Bruce
You me us they
No person
the king of clubs
Martha
Student
We were there
Siddiq
Hava Nagillah
Man Number Seven
Blogbuster
Whalerider
Joel F.
Martha
I. Buttocks
I see said…
Half Life
Lust for life
Peter
Sheik
Rita Penfold
Shelley M.
Howard C.
Unoanimo
Inner Jewels
Prior Young Worker
Renald
Sam
Keith
Ames G.
Kid Shellen
Gabriella F.
No name
Shaman
Traveller
Anonymous
Trademarker
Dick Moron
Exlax
Another Name
Cathie
Look Both Ways
Yesri Baba
Moon angel
Cake Please
Laughing Love
Abigail
Lady B
Isiswideshut
Ryan O Poo
Susan K.
Don Juan
Heresay
Coot
Kiran
Old Dog
And all those who I have not mentioned, but who are equally participating, thank you for your willingness to talk and your very great angles.
Elena
May 22, 2007 at 7:42 am
To: Sheik 9/382,
Thanks for the welcome.
“Do you still believe (after all these years) that you have graduated from ‘life’”?
To paraphrase a teacher of the past – one should be “in” life but not “of” life. The “Fourth Way” also says basically the same thing.
“Life”, to me meaning the main stream of humanity, the majority of which have no interest in spiritual matters. Even those who profess to be religious only put on the cloak of religion for a few hours a week, if that much, and the rest of the time are oblivious to the needs of the spirit.
Next time you are in Victoria Station with an hour to spare just try asking the stream of humanity, one by one, “what have you done for your soul today?”, and let me know the results.
Regarding the “cosmic schmuck” reference; it is quite truthful and as such must also apply to the many opponents of FoF who post here. Unless you are suggesting that being pro FoF automatically qualifies one as a lifetime schmuck and being anti FoF permanently “graduates” one from schmuckhood.
“Do they teach humility and humour at Isis?”
Regarding humility; respecting the right of others to have ideas or beliefs that differ from our own beliefs is a step towards humility. When people get personal and insulting just because another may come from a different viewpoint is a step away from it.
There is a time and place for humour. If one reads Leaves of Grass, Lao Tse, Christ, Buddha, one would be hard pressed to find much of it there. But to get back to your question; humour does indeed exist at Isis. Humour, like most things, is better with consciousness.
We would need to qualify the meaning of humour however. Much of what passes for humour on the blog has its own agenda aside from being humorous; it often serves as a mask for negativity. Humour makes the most mean spirited verbal assaults easier, more credible, to put forth. It acts as a kind of sugar coating for a very bitter pill (if one is the brunt of it). Sarcasm certainly comes under that heading.
In the school there is presently a “wit” exercise. After working with it for awhile one sees that even the most innocuous kind of bantering is not as innocent as it seems. If nothing else it is simply another device of the lower self to wile away our precious moments on silliness.
Seeing that the exercise of wit is one I try to follow in general there’s no reason to break it on the blog.
But it may help you to know that as a child I was always the one the nuns would drag out of church by the ear for laughing during high mass.
May 22, 2007 at 7:47 am
Dear student (#391),
Thank you for your simply stated request, which I respect.
This blog is populated with many diverse and often contradictory perspectives and motivations, owned by a large group of people connected only through their experiences with and in the Fellowship of Friends. Many of these people, including myself, have positive memories of their time in the FOF. Some of these people were hurt. Some acted nobly; others simply did what they had to do. Some have good reasons now for taking precaution about revealing their identities. Others at each end of the spectrum seem to be hiding out, taking cheap shots that they would never have the courage to do face to face.
How familiar is the ring of these many voices. I have been thinking lately the blog is a kind of weird time-body for this dispersed, mostly invisible community of souls, and it’s a little amusing at times to listen to individuals whose faces (and features) I knew so well, who missed each other’s epoch in the school by years or even decades and therefore never met one another in person, yet who are connecting today at deep emotional levels via this electronic-semi-mystic medium.
Yes, I knew Charles and Miles and James, and many others long ago departed from your school, though evidently still very much alive! I knew WhaleRider and Thomas E. too. I cannot vouch for the entire truth of their stories as I have only lately heard the whole story myself; however, I can vouch for much of what they describe, and I can vouch for the sincerity and personal conviction I observed in them long ago as young, idealistic students, willing to do just about anything to evolve. And of course I can tell you my own modest little tale.
This is not a sentimental exercise for me. You and others still in the FOF are my primary motivation in writing now. You are the reason I have chosen not to be anonymous, so that you can judge the veracity of my story and my perspective in part through what you directly know about me myself. I have no interest in convincing you to act one way or the other. I only want to share what I know, in case it may help you make a better-informed decision, whatever your decision turns out to be. I would have appreciated hearing more of the simple, unvarnished truth from a friend during the time I was struggling to understand my own feelings, and my own right action. You know me: judge for yourself.
Truth is powerful. In my experience those who speak it tend to be easy to spot, even without knowing their identities, even here. It’s not hypnotic, it’s not alluring. It simply rings true.
Good luck with your teacher and your decision. He IS your teacher now, as he once was mine. He taught me many things of value and I loved him for it. And yes, I now feel my trust and love were exploited. If Robert is still what you need, I believe your heart will tell you this. This decision of yours is bigger than all the noise and controversy and mudslinging that sometimes comes through on this blog. It’s your own life and your own fate that are at stake. Take good care.
But do try to have some compassion for those angry ones here. Just imagine for a moment that their anonymous stories are actually the truth. Are you so sure you would not be even angrier yourself, if it had been your play? Or that of your son or daughter?
With love.
joseph.granados@gmail.com
1976-2007
May 22, 2007 at 8:12 am
To WhaleRider: 9/396
“Howard Carter #379
“The ones who stay do so because to them there is no point in leaving.”
Prime example of a psychological double bind”.
WhaleRider,please allow me to revise my ambiguously worded comment:
The ones who stay do so because the school is the all and everything.
May 22, 2007 at 8:38 am
Joel, I tend to agree with you. In the early years I saw you as an opportunist, and I know for a fact that you sacrificed people’s individual welfare to promote what appeared to be some misguided aims of the school, and you had the power to get away with it. And though you may have been placed in a difficult position, my .007 opinion is that you should have known better.
You certainly don’t have to apologize – I have to let it go.
——–
Bruce, you are correct in your assessment – I may have overstated my opinion a little. Just had to grease the gears a little. During the time I knew you, you seemed to be having a pretty damn good time. If you weren’t – why the hell did you stick around? You weren’t the type of person that would take a lot of crap. Something was there for you and you stayed as long as it took to get whatever that was. It was a pretty amazing run in the early years – a friggin’ carnival, over the top.
I look at many of these posts here and I see some really sorry cases, and I’m not belittling people or saying I’m any better – I’m just saying from my point of view that there are a lot of looped posts and people to go along with them. I think they were like that even before they entered FOF. They found a place where they could satisfy their derangement when they were in, and they’re still on their wild ride after leaving. Am I missing something here? FOF had the uncanny ability to attract some real interesting specimens. And then again – some pretty solid people. As I said, it was like a carnival, and to a certain degree you could get what you wanted out of it – I sure did.
May 22, 2007 at 9:54 am
The programme “Sex crime and the vatican” aired by the BBC in the UK in October, investigates the sexual abuse of children in the Catholic Church.
Italian journalist Michele Santoro has asked to purchase the rights to the film to broadcast it on his talk show.
But Mario Landolfi, who heads Rai’s parliamentary oversight committee, has asked Rai to prevent its transmission.
The programme, Sex Crimes and the Vatican, has been Google Italia’s most popular online video choice since a version with translated subtitles was put online.
The Catholic newspaper Avvenire says that the bloggers who posted the documentary online have committed “wicked slander”.
‘Preventative censorship’
Mr Landolfi, of the right-leaning Alleanza Nazionale party, said the programme should not be screened “to avoid public service television becoming a media execution squad ready to open fire on the Church and the Pope”.
His intervention has drawn the wrath of other politicians who attacked his attempts at what they called “preventative censorship”.
“Neither the oversight committee nor individual politicians have the right to ask for a preventive censorship of any journalists or topic,” said lawmaker Giuseppe Giulietti.
Mr Santoro, a left-leaning journalist, wants to air the documentary as the centre-piece of his discussion programme, “Year Zero”.
The investigation examines a secret document which sets out a procedure for dealing with child sex abuse scandals within the Catholic Church.
Crimen Sollicitationis, it says, is a Latin document penned in 1962 and imposing an oath of secrecy on the child victim, the priest dealing with the allegation and any witnesses.
May 22, 2007 at 11:26 am
To Martha 292
Thank you for your post and your personal insights.
You write about Robert Burtons talents:
“From our few interactions I got a sense of his power- no doubt with some projection on my part- but I agree that he probably has some abilities and talents which make him seem “conscious”. These talents are not so rare, but rare enough so that when used skillfully they weave a powerful spell.”
I think you get good at talents, that you really train hard.
If you train tennis or playing piano for a number of years you get good at that.
If you train to be powerful within the right invironment you get certainly very good at being powerful.
Robert Burton certainly had the right environment of training his “special” abilities, since all of us gave him a suiting place to train his power skills.
It is painful to see, but through the blog I see, how my behaviour in every detail helped him to enlarge his power.
I too was in the Fellowship of Friends only short like you – 2 and a half year.
And I take part in the blog basically to understand how I and others have taken part in creating the Fellowship and in creating Robert Burton.
I want to see it and take responsibility for every single angle I gave in our centre in Europe that started with:”the teacher says”.. just to give my thoughts and myself a little bit more weight.
All these “little” things helped creating Robert Burton and his crimes and it was a “criminal” part in me that allowed him to be. And if it was not criminal it was at least very opportonistic.
It is my own power shadow, my vanity shadow, something courrupt in me that attracted me to the Fellowship of Friends.
When I was a child in Germany I asked the older people during a school project about their time and personal behaviour in the Hitler-Regime.
My attitude was quite arrogant and my inner picture of myself was heroic – I sure would have taken part in resistance.
The answers I got during the project can be summarized with SILENCE.
Now I know more.
Thank you – dear nameless God – that you showed me my inner truth by sending me into the Fellowhsip of Friends – .
I saw myself as influencible as can be.
I want to see these shadows fully and completly,I want to embrace them and free them and forgive myself for being corrupt.
It starts with sinmlpe things.
I am coninuing my path, eventually being more aware and more awake to such traps,
Eventuelly more loving and more forgiving to
these old people, I have asked insisting and naive questions.
Eventuelly more loving and forgiving to everyone including myself.
Yes, in this and mainly in this sense the Fellowship of Friends was a school.
It is important to learn what is not coming from love to be able to recognize the loving part in me andothers more and trust it.
I have learned and I am still learning.
I hope I will never ever “chrystalize” and keep on learning and loving myself and others.
Thanks to all the lovely teachers and friends here on the blog – thank you Sheik – who help to deepen the understanding how I have helped creating the learning field “Fellowship of Friends”
Es tut mir leid und ich liebe Euch.
May 22, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Dear WhaleRider,
Your post (9/378) made me cry. No mind games or vanity there, but the righteous proclamation of a real man who has put his feet down to walk the same road that has dignified all other real men for all time.
Indeed it is not meant to be easy but your instructions are spot on.
We have never met but I can tell you that I’m proud of you, and I value your way.
Thank you for bringing your clear voice here.
May 22, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Post 417 wrote:
“We all talk here about the virtues of verification, and how can I verify the stories on this website?”
Well, no, actually we’re mostly talking about the virtues of thinking for ourselves, opening our eyes, and listening to our consciences.
Also, there’s a false premise in your comment — the premise being that we have somehow verified all of the Fellowship of Friends dogma that we’ve been fed over the years.
Again, many of us have openly stated that the goal here is to promote critical thinking and open discussion. When was the last time that aim was stated in the FOF?
May 22, 2007 at 1:38 pm
If somebody would tell you that his guru is somebody who is saying about him self he is an angel and at the same time he is asking for money all the time and wants to suck the mens dicks you probably laugh your head off.
You would never ever consider this to be a serious choice for a spiritual teacher. But you are making that choice every month again. Are you aware that you are a member in the Fellowship of friends only for 1 month, and then you join again by paying?
The good news is, it is the 22th today. Only 9 more days to go and you can be free!
May 22, 2007 at 2:19 pm
If you want to see god click here!
May 22, 2007 at 2:41 pm
It is truly incredible, the amount of beautiful conversation in here:
people fixing their faces in full mirrors, some in broken mirrors, others on the flip side, the shinny back of a hand-mirror missing its mirror…
It’s all unraveling something; for me it’s a great ‘tool’ to reveal to oneself just how one’s being ‘is’, how we can really apply what we have experienced into some form of communication that does not leave one with simply ‘stuff’ in the head, rather, a sense of love, sometimes ‘tough-love’,
though nonetheless, this more difficult love has the possibility to hint that there is something more to ourselves than ‘yes’ and ‘no’…
I watch how each day in my life unfolds, so much begins with how the ‘now’ flows through a kind of static, drag-like sensation of physical time, how saying ‘yes’ and ‘no’ begins to steer my day is certain predetermined ways.
Certainly there are a whole host of participants within us, from cannibals to college professors, who discern this ‘dragging something’ as ‘normal’, yet, for me, its some form of ‘fly paper’, for surely we do get stuck on things,
and as flypaper is to the nature of flying, this perception by the mind and body is, at times, beside my sense of self.
Yet, as the fly-paper spins round and round with a few hundred flies vibrating their wings, the intellect says ‘They’re flying.’ Yet my heart says, ‘They’re dying.’
____________________________
Looking at a few hours of interviews conducted with some of the world’s most notorious pain bodies, the one aspect I noticed missing from their questioning, their ‘who forgot to put the salt in the pasta boil?’ was higher mental and higher emotional.
I found many interesting ‘misses’ by the interviewers, though noticed that in the facial gestures of these ‘notorious men & women’ there was a certain ‘kind of door’, which I perceived contained no lock, perhaps not even hinges, just some old door that was lazily propped up in front of an ancient, narrow temple entrance…
and throughout the years, the centuries of lower center reaction, application, exaltation and ‘law abiding I-supposes’ somewhere was lost the art of seeing pain as the byproduct of a certain kind of relationship to what one ‘thinks’ is love .
This is of course is only one aspect of the illustration of pain, yet, if we stand back and take a ‘behind the mirror look’ at everyday love, it has many ‘hair trigger’ prerequisites, that, if not automatically met, result in pain for the expectee, so?
As I stated, in an example of the FoF Triad via my last post here on the Blog,
one might find it ‘odd’ that love, to love, to be loved, is often based upon those qualities and quiet, subtle ‘I expect’ vibrations to be met in some sort of rhythmic way, if not, pain arises …
Could I say that one sort of ‘love’ is the pleasure of avoiding pain? Like, “I loved that movie because I hate my life.” or “I hate because I ‘think or feel’ no one loves me.”
What I have found, (this is entirely my opinion here, so don’t go pulling out your soap boxes anyone) is that somehow ‘pain’ in a primordial fact, a sort of ‘thing’, a sort of very hungry, crying baby.
This ‘baby’ has certain needs,these ‘needs’ are not what some might call ‘your practical everyday grocery store ingredient-solution to’…
These needs are more ‘visual’, ‘spirit-like’ or ‘electrical’ in nature, they are very abstract at first glance (if you’re looking with this world’s glasses on),
rip off the Ray Bans of the incredibly easy ability to deduce opinions from subjective clicking and clacking between the lower centers and one may begin to see that there is something moving behind the scenes that people simply are not aware is feeding and screaming simultaneously through their normal everyday life,
We see incredible use of aphrodisiac’s,
thrill seeking, synthetic drugs, pornography, shinny things, excess, all sorts of ‘certain extremes’, half gallon of coffee in the morning, half gallon of wine in the evening:
of course the later is a bit over the top, although its possible: I’ll cut to the chase,
there’s a very ‘obvious’ disconnect played out through the human image, I say image, because there’s more to it than the ‘i’ can see.
There’s, as I perceive it, three things happening simultaneously in the normal everyday man & woman, what some have labeled many names referring to the number 3.
1. That which is essential for us, yet based upon its satisfactions played out here upon this stage called ‘Earth’, for certainly what good would ‘the arts & humanities’ (be) if suddenly one person from every ‘essence category & application’ showed up on their respective sole-planets, outfitted with nothing but dust for dust?
So, what is within us that is not dependent on the approval or disapproval of certain forces inner mingled willy-nilly like to finally be called ‘earth’ or ‘country’ or ‘type’ or ‘issue’, ‘talent’, ‘role’, etc.?
2. There is that which is present, right here, empty, yet fulfilled by the sense of ‘I’, it delves, though does not deceive, it loves, though does not ask for anything before or after it has initiated its ‘liking’, it plays, though does not provoke pardoning a certain sense of ‘feeling-gut-justice’…
I still remember the purity of childhood-justice.
If a friend got angry and smashed my HotWheels Richard Petty Centennial Classic Collector’s Edition, then somewhere from the root of some weird ‘being-law’ came an apology, deeply seeing, deeply felt, then some form of repayment in the way of either another car or better yet, a deeper friendship based upon that deeper seeing of one another through one another’s pure wish to be together, to keep living in the present by compromising our then, sensed, petty attachments to the ‘just then’,
without reason, without mind, without justifying (which we would somehow be found later doing) one another’s insatiable habit of ripping out the last page of every ‘good book’ so to say, “This world sucks, I can never finish anything, everything has a diabolical pertinacity to mold my life into multiple conspiracy theories?.”
The later introduces 3.
Here we enter the flip side of the ultra physical world we live in, so much around us is ultra-obvious, perhaps at times too shinny and too predictable, yet this is where we find ourselves, stuck in an evolving physical world, which like the physical bodies who paint with its paint, it too will die, fade away and become perhaps a blazing sun, so to warm the cycle to be born all over again, which is not to say this is a ‘bad’ thing, its just a god-thing.
The flip side is the not so obvious ultra-electrical, the mood of the surface, the emotions under the carpet and so on. It is from here, from this context, that our deeper birth will occur (my opinion).
In this 3rd ‘thing’ dwells the ‘pain body’, a phenomenon which ‘loves’ to be loved, yet loves not the lover. This irreconcilable self, the struggling self is not our destiny, yet it is in some incredible way, a part of our ‘womb’.
How do you suppose its possible for non-self-induced trance-states to occur, what ‘in us’ fears it?
How is it that 50% flee it and another 50% stay? What occurs, what listens and performs, what does not have ‘willed’ control, what does not remember, what in us settles for the education of covenant superstition over deeper exploration into our contradictions,
what is a contradiction, could it be a lifestyle of unreconciled forces within us or simply a condition to make ‘good’ theater from?
There’s allot of material here, simply a few wonderments, late at night, loving, simply with you, its morning now.
__________________________________
Reply to Simon #354/9 and Siddiq #374/9
You wrote ~
“However later, as I began to wake up the dangerous game Robert (and myself) was playing, I was less willing to tag along.”
Unbeknown to many pain bodies, (which is innate to their predisposition of being identified as non-unified beings) to arrive to this point in the membership of the FoF is the end-game,
yet it’s not checkmate, its simply a neutral stalemate,
this is where the FoF takes the student, to that point of realization concerning the flip-side of the Life-game, i.e., the Spirit-game, this realization can come in many forms, not just through such places as the FoF…
To many, the FoF is still legitimate, i.e., not “bogus”, this is objectively true, yet only in the now, a subjective snap-shot of the non-static now, for its a strange Catch 22 thing,
since a certain ‘string’ of evolution is being plucked and while moving a certain student through such a form as the FoF is ‘playing oneself to a particular tune’,
it is still vibrating, this is not to say its good or bad music, its simply a note, a scale.
I am sure you have heard of the saying “Some people never listen.” This is referring to one of these ~ Objective with a subjective relativity to the now – Laws.
If someone is asking for it, then, the music will play… you cannot force a piano to sound otherwise, once forced, it is no longer ‘itself’, hence, many seekers are still seeking for a place to plant their particular form of will, of conscience, of love,
this is a mysterious process, not to suggest that ‘mysterious’ is a buffer for ignorance, I simply sense that ‘the rest of the story’ is simply not down here to be found, nor is our core-sense dependent on finding,
nor will our deeper nature ever ‘rest its head anywhere’.
This realization is a double-edge sword with no handle though; for the seeker can arrive at this realization, make a profound move, then, as O. said, “Loose everything he has worked for.”
It is here that the ruthless laws of the spiritual path come into play, this is not to say they are fatalistic, simply honest, perhaps a sort of honesty that the FoF teacher cannot exhibit for it would break the pain-body-food-chain.
Briefly, the particular law, one of the ‘ruthless’ ones is ~
To be the conscious action which ‘stopped the game’, the unconscious inaction or, as Rodney Collins put it, “Yes, eventually you must be responsible for everything.”
Many are not at this stage, yet staying in the FoF, knowing with conscience, of the crime-hydrogens produced by the inner circle, is of no particular advantage, for the spiritual student can place their contradictions up to any of thousands of institutional models and ask themselves,
“How is this in me, what am I, do I get I when I say ‘me’?
It’s tough, though worth every drop of red ink in us to write ourselves through this “Play written by an Idiot.” W.S.
Siddiq ~
Perhaps you are meditating within the ‘wrong’ triad,… perhaps? Sometimes the obvious slips through our fingers when we are too busy slapping people in the face for insulting or challenging our identifications, I say this only on a symbolic level of course.
To me your Post is a bit ‘bent’.
I recall going to a junkyard one evening and seeing a smashed in the front BMW, worth at least $15,000 (if one was to spend about $3000 to fix the front end), not bad though, with a price tag of $1000 dollars, this made no logical sense, much like your post,
so I went into the ‘waiting area’ and asked “What’s with the Beemer?”
A great, pale blue light appeared behind the counterman, the pepsi-guy was there re-starting the soda machine, the salesman seemed to levitate a bit as he moved towards me, he was on a skateboard, he said “It has a bent frame”.
Oh. I said, in an almost ‘the sacrifice is over so soon?’ way,
There’s very few things in a real man’s life that gets him down more than finding out that his project-car-dream has a bent frame.
See, there’s not much one can do with a bent frame, because it pretty much begins from beginning to end and effects many ‘lateral things’ in between, not to mention the ‘holy-project-car-superstition’ that there’s something you’ll never know, that knows you better than you know yourself .
So, its what we call a ‘parts car’.
With this metaphor in mind, it will perhaps save you from buying ‘bent frames’ that are produced automatically by all of us when we
‘get personal’. That is ~
this blog, in respects to the word ‘bogus’ is mostly focusing on RB, what he has made for others through being himself, not necessarily what students have made of him, who, in of themselves, have never experienced the ‘circle’s complete rotation’ or an up close and personal inquiry into what they sense might be ‘a bit off or on’.
So from the standpoint of the word “bogus”, as I sense this blog’s focus is in regards to its use, it is not referring to the students or even that make-believe-group of entities calling themselves ‘The FoF without RB, while including RB’ with C-Influence and friends in tow, while still contributing to his mirror image of their contradictory inner world stew.
Remember the next time you’re grocery shopping and see a can of “Hungry Man’s Dinner’, that,
this can containing chunks of beef, potatoes, peas, carrots, various meat broths, onions, spices and a plethora of chemicals only known to alien lifeforms living beneath Area 51, was once an original recipe from somewhere, most likely some Slovak region.
So, although it tastes good, takes 2 minutes to cook in the microwave, opposed to the overnight 9 hour crockpot ritual,
your stomach, a being whose evolved on this planet far longer than the entity in charge of its subjective impressions, knows different and will act accordingly without the same permission you gave yourself to purchase its ‘dinner’.
Be healthy.
_________________________________
Reply to Sheik (Post #382/9) &
K. of C. (Post #393/9)
You asked ~
“Do they teach humility and humour at Isis?”
I like the little omen-ish misspelling of your word ‘humor’, for certainly many of the positive virtues ’tilled’ at Isis is under the auspices of “Hum ours”.
There are many cover-crops at Isis, yet, few come to figure out what exactly to plant, after they’re tilled under, so, another cover crop is laid down.
Sheik,
The answer would be Yes and No. Yes, there is humility taught, though its not the kind that comes from understanding in the Now that one’s conscious individual strengths simply are not what you ‘thought’ they were
or that place one arrives at when you ‘thought’ you were a man #6, then you notice that the guy sitting next to you in the diner has the comic section you’ve been looking for in the Sunday Times for five minutes.
So, if there’s humility being offered by RB, its tongue in cheek, for whatever humility one supposes may befall RB himself through various ‘plays’ and ‘shocks’, it is somehow quickly wisped away by some contradictory event or self-calming habit, which shows itself as being from a place whose not necessarily what one could classify as being where any sincere Man #4 would aim to ‘end up’ as a so called ‘conscious being’ or ‘perfected man’,
yet, from a standpoint of a person outside looking in, which all of us are spectators of one another, this is ‘my theory’, an image for me to intuit and make sure that I strive not to be a hypocrite in its shadow.
Now, as you know what the Christian’s have done to spin Christ round and round into a giant butterfly pinned eternally on some library wall,
so this happens with the automatic and sensationalized hypnotic perceiving apparatus’s take on the many RB external plays,
hence it results in what I term as ‘the student proclamation of approximated near there, though not necessarily received by RB as having been mailed to RB, from a distance pronounced upon RB, letter of recommendation for humility consideration.
In other words, they ‘think’ he got it, though don’t think anything of it when there’s no Thank You letter in the mail referring to having gotten it.
Who has it in the FoF? Plenty of some of the dearest spirit lovers I will ever have had the honor of being with, yet, the question is,
Can you graduate humility into conscious action, which reflects a conscious, personal force, that once put to action does not produce negative resentments due to a contradictory wish to be more than you can be shown by the one and only moment, Now, as you are ‘totally’ as a present, relative being?
Now, comes the humor. Besides students laughing behind their teacher’s back at his contradictions, while post humorously supporting them through their own mirroring actions, attitudes and narcissistic partialities, we have the ‘Seven of Hearts’,
a card that RB himself for 30+ years took great pleasure in demonstrating throughout dinners, lunches and breakfasts at his personal dexterity at,
his particular form of ‘wit’, which, I am sure you’ll find plenty of info on, ask anybody, so far as the ‘clinical’ meaning of the card that is.
This particular kind of humor situates itself atop certain self canceling facts, which in the end take enormous amounts of precious fine energy to fuse together, accept as ‘refined sarcasm’ and produce something that later can be imagined throughout the entire being of one’s plastic conscience as having been a ‘hearty Viking laugh’ befitting of roasted pheasant, barking dogs beneath one’s feet and various jovially outfitted burly men, who have not much more to do than sharpen their battle axes and shrink heads.
Spiritual-ego-Wit is incredibly volatile in the FoF, it is one of the greatest liabilities that its teacher has ‘deposited’ into the FoF student’s psychic savings account.
Most of this humor, though its ‘an exercise’ to cease such, (similar to seeing a man running to get in line at McDonald’s) the once favorite hobby of RB,
has now fallen under yet another ‘dominance twig’ of the same logic which placed hundreds of budding students under so called ‘conscious creating, limit-your- sleep exercises’ that he himself had no practice or being in:
but wait, he’s the man, who cares? If he’s giving it as an exercise, it logically follows that only that which a man has done, overcome and gone beyond can be important enough to him to offer its likewise challenge and possibilities of redemption to his friends,
fortunately some of us verified the objective vibratory wave matter of self-exuding hypocrisy while between the eager to know ages of 8-12.
There is allot of beautiful humor to and all wit is not of the above RB hobby wit category.
This is only my impression, so here goes,
the wit that I sensed coming from the RB initiated type within the FoF was from a very presumptuous, fatalistic place
and while wit can be used to truly ‘lay down the law of the soul’ as Rumi does so well, it, as all things, has a flip side, that is, to ‘lay up the law of the soul’ where none but ‘the chosen by the taller reacher’ can reach.
Picture a ‘regime hat’, spike on top accompanied with a smiley face.
Three words that describe the 7 of hearts wit ~ pitiless, mirrormirroronthewall, paindramahungry.
And yet, as you can see in Post #393/9
where K.of.C. writes ~
“Those of us that have worked our way up out of that ridiculous barrier now have no doubts: we have ascended with more possibilities and far more consciousness than anyone left behind.”
~ some, even after leaving the FoF have some work to do in the category of humility, while such subjective profundities are just millimeters away from being food for spiritual-ego-wit.
Be well and thank you again for your work.
__________________________
To H.N. (Post 384/9)
FYI, most orgies taking place at the FoF, from time immemorial, do not allow heterosexual couples.
You may want to check your Post for a typo, I think you meant to write “I have been in the FoF for 30 minutes.”
Be brave, look deeper with presence.
___________________________________
To ~ ‘I see’ S.T.B.M. (Post #389/9)
Yes, my friend, yet, is this not an inevitability?
After all what is the old spiritual maxim anyway? The one that states ~
“You must die before you die.” (?)
Don’t think too much, feel it’s sudden, in the now, call to being.
Most people on this planet leave it by default, so goes for anyone listing the excuses to not leave the FoF if they sense they should, that you’re re-listing in your post as some form of practical business or family sense, yet, what could be more impractical than to build a house over a budding volcano, ‘thinking’, that during your lifetime it will serve as ‘free heat’.
Anytime we automatically choose some physical form’s value to stand for some-thing worth more than that feeling that usually imbues that something with love and real conscious individual meaning, we set in motion an outward form of living our life ‘painfully’, which many ‘love’ to do, pain activates their glands, makes them feel real, yet, what?
What is a person really? No one is an island, the only island is fear, fear of loosing ‘the known’, move, use the sequence to go beyond it… gee wiz.
Chant ~ U Haul, Ryder….
_____________________________________
Reply to ‘student’ (Post #391/9)
You wrote for us to consider ~
“…but to base a departure on mostly anonymous articles would be a mistake.”
Dear friend,
the only ‘mistake’ you could really make is having not asked RB to verify the details of these rumors or been present to the intonations in his voice, facial gestures, eye movement, body language and the like when saying ‘no’ to his ‘particular interests’ ro his answer and mannerism around answering your first question posed above,
you have not made the effort to check court records, newspaper articles, speak to those in this blog privately or in person concerning their perceptions, make eye contact with those who you suspect to be exaggerating or a bit too personal and so on….
Yet, if you did actually do these things, to counteract and sooth your imagined knowledge that by some odd assumption ~
all anonymous things somehow carry some odor of suspicious cookie jar theft aroma
~ Ironically, you wouldn’t have to make the decision to leave the school, it would be made for you, try it,
I believe you will find that the same omnipotent nature of your particular version of logical mind, that has somehow pictured itself as doing a ‘Hulk maneuver’ through the self projected image, the ‘brick-like-nature’ felt by you of this blog site’s effect upon you,
once applied to the inner circle of the FoF, it will meet a more relative ‘brick wall’ in regards to your youngster nature, a wall that will not collapse like the one’s in the movies.
Wear a helmet.
___________________________________
Reply to Post #399/9
It’s thinking like this that makes sex a briefer, shallower experience than our essence would prefer or senses it can be otherwise, with or without a lover.
___________________________________
To Whalerider (Post #396/9)
I happen to know for a fact that my toaster is conscious,
for it has never been, done, or hinted at anything other than its toastforyouness nature.
I only hope, with great reverence towards all true toasters, that you can say the same for yours.
______________________________________
Reply to Shelley M. (Post #380/9)
Hello,
that Post #314/9 you’re referring to was not written by me, BTW.
You wrote ~
” 1. I find it fascinating that Peter Brook directed Lord of the Flies before he directed Meetings with Remarkable Men. Seems we’ve had a little Lord of the Flies action going on in the fof since day one. I think this blog is the ship coming to the rescue!
2. I also find it fascinating that both Stanislavsky and Gurdjieff dedicated their major works, My Life in Art and Beezelbub’s Tales, to the American people. The both felt that their ideas could flower in the USA. Your thoughts? ”
Hummmm…
You’re fascinated with comparisons, that’s a healthy beginning… Yet, as so many centered in the queen (and when I find some external stimulus conjuring mine) I must ask myself, am I in the middle of these two comparisons, if so, how is that?
I like seeing things one at a time, although there is certainly an easier way to sorta bunch things together to get a quick family picture before the cloud cover comes
and comparisons can actually be an exercise in patience, so, as long as you’re not ‘lost in the middle of the candle watching both ends burn’, go for it.
I feel that you have allot to be excited about, stringing this incredible play together is a deeply personal task, I thank you for sharing your positive energy, I love real smiles and I sense you had some while writing the above.
America is the si-do bridge for this ‘Merry Go Around’, that is, before the ‘Circle of Brightly Painted Metal Horses’ is taken off its bearing and that bearing changed for another.
No Doomsday prediction though, simply I understand that the earth has a roof and certain forms of expression, particularly those that define us as ‘someone’ by thinking ourselves in and out of opinons, will inevitably fade away, with or without our permission.
Ekhart Tolle once said “Even the Sun will die'” I sorta do and do not ‘get into’ that ‘idea’, it falls on certain parts of my being in different ways, yet, it’s there, just like we ‘think’ we’re standing on firm ground, which BTW belongs to a ball of ever moving tectonic plates suspended in mid-air at some unknown Latitude & Longitude position in a universe we have no known limits or boundaries assigned to.
Yes, some part of this blog, a certain nature flowing through it, a kind of enduring conscious tolerance of other’s experimenting selves, without regard to this or that level of finished show,
this to me is a ‘vessel’ of sorts, if it’s rescuing something for you, then it is a rescue ship, for some it is a battleship, others a wreckage & recovery vessel and still it may simply be one of those strange ships that show up someday on someone’s private beach with all these books, food and clothes, though no one on board, wet footprints that do not go towards the edges of the ship.
Beam me up Scotty or not.
___________________________________
Love to you all.
May 22, 2007 at 2:46 pm
Sandra # 409
Given the ongoing tension between us during our shared years in NYC (’78-’81) I always wondered why you kindly let me stay at your house when I fled from Italy in ’91. I get it now. Your hospitality helped me tremendously in my time of need.
Thanks-
Shelley
May 22, 2007 at 3:03 pm
Dear Siddiq and others
#374
Hunderds and hunderds that means 200 or maybe 400 or maybe….is this one of Robert’s prediction? 1200 will be in the fellowship of friends and the total will be 400?
Or am I not reading you well?
Do you know how many have left and how many are on the fence…Do you know?
Thanks Sheik
I am sorry for you, you are part of my world and I love you.
May 22, 2007 at 3:22 pm
Remember to spell out – Fellowship of Friends -(rather than ‘FoF’ or ‘Fellowship,’ etc.) when you refer to the group in Oregon House.
The more references to the ‘Fellowship of Friends’ here, the higher this site will rate in a ‘google’ search – and the more people will find it.
See you Saturday (I’ll be wearing the ‘I am not the Sheik tee shirt’)!
May 22, 2007 at 5:02 pm
Dear Howard
Howard C. 9/422 to the Sheik 9/382
“Next time you are in Victoria Station with an hour to spare just try asking the stream of humanity, one by one, “what have you done for your soul today?”, and let me know the results.”
Howard, next time you have an hour to spare, just try to spend it in the company of a two or three year old. Hopefully, you have one of your own, if not there are plenty of harried moms/dads here that would gladly lend you theirs.
Right in front of you, there it is: joy, laughter, wonder, delight. In the moment every moment. Still glowing from the touch of the Divine.
That was you once, all of us once. Now it seems we have become cosmic elitists “wearing the cloak of religion for a few hours of a week” then standing in judgment of all. Separating ourselves from “the main stream of humanity” in the name of spirituality.
Think again of that small child, alive, connected, forgiving. Then ask, what have I done to my soul?
It is a question that is being asked a lot, right now.
Best to you and all
Cake
May 22, 2007 at 5:41 pm
To: Elena #421
The story before the story-
Dear Elena,
I met Girard in 1975. I was temporarily living in LA for six months to continue studying acting with my teacher, Lee Strasberg. If you don’t know who he was please listen to this youtube. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O7-NFB41Bsc
to quickly give you some scale in understanding Strasberg’s position in the world of acting, films and theater. Marilyn Monroe left her estate to him in her will. In some people’s opinion he was the most influential acting teacher of the 20th century, responsible for bringing the ideas of Stanislavsky to hundreds of actors through his work at the Actors Studio (now famous on TV for in-depth interviews). Strasberg is also famous for his his Oscar nominated role in The Godfather II. By the time I met the fof in ‘75 I had already been training with him for three years. I was also being mentored at that time by an actress named Ellen Burstyn who won both the ’75 Oscar and Tony award.
She arranged for me to stay with her friends during my sojourn in LA. You can ask Nicholas Spaulding about this (I assume he’s still in the fof) because at the time he was also an acquaintance of Ellen’s (he had done some tech work on an indie film she had just produced). I didn’t know anyone in LA so she suggested I contact Nicholas. Since she had just won the Oscar and the Tony I was game to do just about anything she suggested.
I rang Nicholas who, unbeknownst to Ellen or myself had just joined the fof three months earlier. Both Nicholas and Ellen were speaking to me about 4th Way ideas and I could immediately see the connection to what I had already been studying with Strasberg (and a number of other great actors and teachers from NYC).
Nicholas brought me to a prospective student meeting led by Miles and the new center directors, Girard and Barbara. I was mightily intrigued and notwithstanding my natural cynicism for groups of any kind (especially ones where there were no blacks or gays) and my East Coast bluster, I joined what appeared to me at the time to be a sincere group of non-actor type people trying to be present in a very serious way. I had little interest in the teacher, I was more interested in the raw material provided being around so many other like-minded students interested in being present and coming from their essence.
A month or so after I joined an older older student named Ram came to visit his son and ex wife in LA. We met at a meeting and he immediately latched onto me filling my ears with basic body type information and RB style spinning of esoteric knowledge as if he owned it to make himself seem interesting and powerful to my spiritual seeker side. I immediately got knocked up (this was before AIDS) and told Girard about the encounter and that I needed some help keeping Ram out of my life and resolving the problem of the pregnancy. Of course Girard’s answer to my dilemma was going to Mt. Carmel and meeting the teacher! ( I think I was Girard’s first crisis as center director. )
I rode up in the back of Blair’s truck. During my first half hour at Mt. Carmel while walking on a dusty road towards the Lodge I met Linda Kaplan/ Rockwood and we introduced ourselves to each other. She asked me what I did in ‘life’. I told her I was an actress and she said that I would probably have to quit if I was going to be a student in the fof because, as she put it, “real artists don’t stay in the School”. I was devastated and continued walking along the dusty road by myself towards the Lodge. A few minutes later I ran into Ram. He asked me why I was crying. I told him what Linda had just said to me. He immediately turned me around and walked me to the Blake cottage where RB was getting a coke or something out of a fridge in the garage. Ram told me to walk up and introduce myself and tell him what Linda had just said. I did. RB gave me a big hug and told me that I could do both, i.e. be a student and an actress. This became my mantra anytime anyone repeated Linda’s edict to me. . Since that time, thanks to Ram, I always walked straight up to RB and said what I had to say.
(A few months later Linda went on to try to get me involved in a multi level marketing scheme hoping I would get on her down line and sell Royal Jelly to all my actress friends. I was horrified at her proposal because she had invited me to her caravan for tea out of the blue and I was very emotional about connecting with her as a person. Being hit on as a potential client broke my heart as much as anything that else that transpired after that. She also foamed at the mouth asking me about movie stars I’d worked with.)
Anyway, I returned to LA in Blair’s truck and thanks to the bumpy ride up and down, had a miscarriage the day after I returned. (I think Ram got a slap on the wrist for knocking up a new student.)
Girard and Barbara continued to take an interest in me and even came to watch one of my classes with Strasberg. They were computer programmers or something like that at the time and I had very little in common with them personally. Their agenda seemed to be to come to the class to show me that what THEY were doing in the fof was more important than what I was doing training as an actress. In the meanwhile I continued studying with Strasberg during my first year in the fof and because of the experiments and intensity of the practice at being present with other fof students, my ability as an actress was radically and positively affected. Strasberg enthusiastically noted the change. His acknowledgement of my work as an artist validated all the efforts I was making as a 4th Way student. I was impressed… and CONFUSED! What was I supposed to do with my life? FOF or acting career? The convenience and comfort of the fof seemed a lot more welcoming than the harsh reality of show business. I bailed on myself as an artist.
I eventually quit acting altogether a few years later as I could not sustain the amount of networking necessary to develop an acting career and also be in the fof. Also, Reagan got elected president and I just couldn’t hack it in the USA anymore so I moved to England with my new husband Thomas E., who had been RB’s secretary for over five years. Since he had been RB’s secretary I thought he could do anything! Even though we didn’t have any money at the time we adventured out into the world and using the networking skills I’d developed buying art for the fof I supported T. and helped him establish himself as a painter.
So- there you have it dear Elena. A little story about how I met Girard and RB.
Regards to Girard.
Love,
Shelley
May 22, 2007 at 5:46 pm
To All,
Let me correct my past post (389), what I meant to convey is that of the thousands of former members, only a few dozen are outspokenly critical of some aspects of the FOF on this blog–so their voices may disproportionally appear louder.
Most surprising to me is this: if it is not being a direct “victim” of Robert, then the most common reason for leaving is the “abuse by Robert” issue. This seems just an excuse to me, as (1) what did the person try to do about it (usually nothing after finding out)/did not try to help the abused; and (2) do we really know the real true facts; then (3) why wait all these years to leave (as Joel, Sandra, Bruce, etc.) is that not a contradiction?
Yes some have spoken out forcefully, Whalerider, Simon, and others, mostly anonymous. Their experience, which I will not try to diminish, is not the experience of many others–myself included (for the record, I was around during the days of Whalerider and Simon, as a member of a nearby center at that time and they both are remembered by me as two wonderful, strong and healthy individuals–by no means the passive lunar type!)
While the sexlifeoftheteacher aspects of the FOF are certainly something that can be discussed, it is by no means the largest, or most important part of it. Some perspective and relativity is a good idea, as well as some basic respect for the privacy of the teacher and his friends.
Best of luck to all!
Siddiq
Dear No Person, as you, I am not trying to close off my mind nor do I try to give a canned response. I am truly interested in what the school experience is for so many that has never been discussed here, or in a different forum. Your story about the cufflinks is a good example–it is to me the breaking of a certain illusion.
I have seem myself as an animal, full of greed, lust, vain, hungry–an animal… The monster may be frozen, but give it a little sunshine and it will thaw out and roar again…
Siddiq
May 22, 2007 at 6:24 pm
Cimarron (356): Excellent post.
“ONE OF THE DESCRIPTIONS (of a psychopath) THAT QUICKLY CAUGHT MY ATTENTION WAS: HE WILL SAY ANYTHING THE OTHER PERSON NEEDS TO HEAR IN ORDER TO MOVE FROM POINT A TO POINT B.”
Your comments get to the heart of the matter: If we somehow believe Robert Burton has our best interests at heart, he’s got us, and we will never quite understand what’s been occurring in the fof. But when we start questioning his intentions one-by-one, the illusion begins to crumble.
“WHILE THE PSYCHOPATH IS CHARMING AND MAKES FRIENDS EASILY, THOSE WHO COME TO RELY UPON HIM SOON PAINFULLY FIND OUT THAT HE HAS NO SENSE OF RESPONSIBILITY. HE CAN SOLEMNLY LIE WHILE LOOKING THE VICTIM IN THE EYE, SHOWING NO ANXIETY WHATEVER… (and) THEIR WAY OF DEALING WITH MONEY IS OFTEN IRRESPONSIBLE AND CHAOTIC.”
In the fof, there’s this idea of the “imaginary picture” that we have of ourselves. It’s a very useful concept, but what we REALLY should have been talking about was the imaginary picture we had of Robert Burton. My idea of “who he was” was nowhere near the above description, and yet today I see how well the description fits.
“THE DEMOGRAPHICS SHOW AN INCIDENCE OF AS HIGH AS 3 PERCENT AMONG THE GENERAL POPULATION (WHICH SEEMS TO BE AN UNDERESTIMATION DUE TO HEAVILY RELYING ON INSTITUTIONALIZED PEOPLE), MALES OUTNUMBER FEMALES BY AT LEAST 5:1. (I WAS JUST WONDERING: IF FOF HAS OVER 1000 STUDENTS, STATISTICALLY SPEAKING, HOW MANY PSYCHOPATHS WOULD FIT IN THE PICTURE?)…”
I have thought about this often. Unfortunately, one of my closest friends in the FOF (many years ago) fit the description very well, and I’m sure there are others. Once I realized this person did have psychological disorder (partly coming to this realization through discussions I had with others who knew him), I began avoiding him more and more. But this baffled certain others who really liked him… “He’s such a great guy! There must be something wrong with YOU!” Sound familiar? After years of trusting this friend, being loyal to him when others criticized him, and feeling a deep love and respect for him, I finally wised up and left this person’s school within a school. It took a long, long time, and a lot of mistakes in the process. But the experience was very much a microcosm of leaving the Fellowship, and in an odd way it may have prepared me for it.
“THE ADVICE IN A NUT SHELL THAT YOU FREQUENTLY HEAR IS: RUN AS FAST AS YOU CAN AND NEVER LOOK BACK… PEOPLE USUALLY TAKE YEARS TO RECOVER FROM THE EMOTIONAL DAMAGE THAT COMES WITH THE EXPOSURE TO THOSE INDIVIDUALS (IF THEY EVER RECOVER). THIS IS WHAT I READ IN ALMOST EVERY POSTING OF EX STUDENTS.”
I’m still recovering from my proximity to both individuals — Robert Burton and the above mentioned. And I didn’t have sex with either one of them. 🙂 But I can truly see that I was mostly a victim of my own stupidity, and keeping that fact in mind (without judgment or shame) has helped me immensely. One of the best cures for me was to extricate myself from my own vanity. Psychopaths recognize that and use it. I learned to just be, and didn’t try to “be something.”
And by the way, I loved your quotation:
“PEOPLE USUALLY SHOW MORE COMMON SENSE TO BUY A SECOND HAND CAR THAN TO EMBRACE A RELIGION”
UNKNOWN
I’ll add one from Abraham Lincoln that has been sitting on my desk for quite some time:
“Be sure you put your feet in the right place, then stand firm.”
May 22, 2007 at 6:32 pm
School. What is a real school? Is the FOF a real school?
To my understanding, Gurdjieff insisted the Fourth Way requires an individuation process. The paths of seekers require them to make the “Hero’s Journey”, a real journey that only means something if there is a true risk, including the risk of failure. Initiation or graduation only happens if the initiate takes responsibility, undertakes the risk and passes through. Theoretically, a school has to graduate its students, so they have to break away, or be broken away, to individuate. They must actually expose themselves to hazard; the hero’s journey has no guarantee of success. If the path is safeguarded, the outcome assured, and the risk removed, then there is no graduation, no growth.
In my opinion, the Fellowship IS a real school, but not the way Howard or Siddiq think. In my opinion, it does, in fact, produce men number four. In every essential, based on my experience and observation of the other ‘products’ of the FOF, one goes there in order to prepare to leave (I know, ‘crazy wisdom’). However, there doesn’t seem to be the apparatus to produce men number five, or the ‘space’, were that to occur. There is not enough being to keep a number five around; there is no real work for them to do (regurgitating Burton’s angles or becoming a mini–Robert doesn’t count, folks).
Burton may be a man number five; it appears one can be a man number five and be damaged, though. See Ouspersky’s remarks on ‘black magicians’, and my interpretation of Gurdjieff’s point of view of this subject in post (#8-228). Gurdjieff quite explicitly states that there is an absolute barrier to further development if the wrong choice is made at the time of crystallization. So, sorry, no man number 7.3 on the way to 8, let alone number six.
Burton seems to desperately need a certain number of students to stick around to feed his needs; see how he encourages immaturity and dependence, see how he is making a new religion. Those who fall prey to the manifold temptations he offers become stuck in his worldview. Those who don’t, who are repelled or whose conscience wakes up, must leave—the esoteric purpose of school.
This leads me to another question. Is Burton’s behavior intentional? I have spent many an hour, over the years, wondering. If it is, it is certainly the act of the ages, because it is indistinguishable from severe mental illness (extremes of narcissism and satyriasis). Hey, maybe it is ‘crazy wisdom’ on steroids? My conclusion is no. Burton seems to have the power of the ‘black magician’, but his octave is descending; now he is a prisoner of his decision to use his power for personal aggrandizement; his is, in an important sense, being used. For me, a major clue is in the lies included at the founding and the energy used to cover up those lies. The house was ‘built upon the sand’. Burton kept the dark parts secret for as long as he could (1970-1984), and denied many aspects for far longer still. It doesn’t do much good to act without an audience, in secrecy. It seems to me, it is the situation that throws students off, not the volition of Burton. If individuating students was the intention, he could have shown his dark side much sooner, or could have ‘arranged’ (with his own Judas) to be exposed. So, no, not intentional. But nevertheless when you look at things this way, the FOF is still a pretty successful school. Those who join are ironically unaware of its true nature and workings.
So, the difficulties and the hazards necessary for successful initiation cannot be faked. The initiates must take actual risks. Not all make it, we just didn’t understand this beforehand. We sought our version of the hero’s journey. We were certainly naïve, maybe we had to be. We embarked. What we wished was granted. Most of us came out the other end with something worth the price. The risks had to be real. There could not be a “nice group of people” we could hang out with for the rest of our days, in comfort, assured of salvation. No community. Not the happy ending that we imagined, but another kind.
I say, everything really is perfect. That doesn’t mean we don’t agonize about the price, the damage done to people. It doesn’t mean we lose our humanity and regard the lost people as some kind of compost. Rather, we can now know true compassion, and maybe offer real help, based on an understanding that has been paid for by truly ‘living the questions’.
Why lend energy to ending the Fellowship? It does its job well. It is far from offering the only way to become a man number four, and reminding seekers of this is one of the purposes of this blog (there ARE other paths, and maybe faster), but it is the way for some. Certainly anyone trying to persuade students to leave is wasting their time. As Siddiq said, none of us wants to trade places with the other. But, we can encourage, and we can extend a hand when it is needed, maybe provide some warmth and shelter to those who have just landed, shivering, from their journey.
With love to all,
Ames
P.S. the term “hero’s journey” was coined by Joseph Campbell. If you’ve never read any of his books, “Myths to Live By” would be a good start, but they are all great.
May 22, 2007 at 7:06 pm
When there was a wave of departures from the Fellowship of Friends after ‘the worldwide depression’ failed to happen, a dear friend (an ‘older student’ who I think remains a member) said to me with surprising vehemence:
“I HATE former students! I wish they would just go away and leave us alone!”
The same, if more restrained, theme is recurring here in posts from current members along the lines of
‘It’s fine for those who don’t want to be in the Fellowship of Friends to leave, and we respect that. We just ask that you respect us and leave us alone.’
Those posters miss the point that many here are not much interested in reaching the ‘true believers’ but rather in letting those who are disappointed know that we have found there can be a good, healthy, spiritual life after the Fellowship – as well as in letting anyone who might be thinking about joining have the benefit of our long years of experience.
‘Things are often other than they seem,’ and we are trying to shine light on the unfortunate dark corners of the Fellowship.
So, I say to current happy members,
‘It’s fine for those who want to be in the Fellowship of Friends to stay, and we respect that. If you don’t like the postings here, simply don’t continue to visit.’
A final thought.
RB will soon refer (perhaps he already has?) to this forum as his long-predicted ‘crucifixion.’ It would be more accurate to say that the existence of this blog is an example of ‘his being attracting his life.’
May 22, 2007 at 7:15 pm
It is interesting that although so many of us are changing our relationship to the Fellowship of Friends and leaving we do so inconspicuosly with the minimum of fuss. I think this is a very useful way to observe certain ‘taboos’ that despite our power to leave the organisation still have us in their grip.
If our consciences are awoken to the criminality of the FOF and RB, then is it enough to leave quietly?
Contributing to this blog is a way of expressing one’s dismay and dealing with the process of leaving, but I would guess that for most of us it is about us and our coming to terms with things, rather than our doing anything to prevent the continuation of what we find such fault in. What is it that holds us back. Is it fear, superstition, keeping our options open to return, lack of courage, lack of imagination, lazyness, inability to see what we can do to change things.
One person sent the link to this blog to members last year and look what has come of it. Yet we who now see thing so clearly and are so definite in our condemnation of what we find so wrong lack the need or the ability to do anything about it.
Why is this?
May 22, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Dear All, here is a quote from Henry V:
(Henry V responding to WILLIAMS who said:)
But if the cause be not good, the king himself hath a heavy reckoning to make, when all those legs and arms and heads, chopped off in battle, etc.//
KING HENRY V
So, if a son that is by his father sent about
merchandise do sinfully miscarry upon the sea, the imputation of his wickedness by your rule, should be imposed upon his father that sent him: or if a servant, under his master’s command transporting a sum of money, be assailed by robbers and die in many irreconciled iniquities, you may call the business of the master the author of the servant’s damnation: but this is not so: the king is not bound to answer the particular endings of his soldiers, the father of his son, nor the master of his servant; for they purpose not their death, when they purpose their services. Besides, there is no
king, be his cause never so spotless, if it come to the arbitrement of swords, can try it out with all unspotted soldiers.
May 22, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Some people spoke of conscience recently and the absence of it in psychopats. Adding my 2 cents.
Someone once said, why do you think people are so insecure all the time? Because deep down they know they are faking it!
I’ve often felt that ‘inner considering’ and shame, rather than mechanical manifestations that need to be dealt with and separated from and worked on, are frequently a voice of conscience, of knowing that I’m putting on an act, just painfully pretending, wanting to be someone. Part of growing up is usually learning to successfully keep that voice quiet. Maybe that’s what’s attractive about someone without a conscience, they seem free and unperturbed by this unpleasantness.
May 22, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Thanks for the link to Deeren Brown.
I could not help touring about every video available on Youtube…
My sharing and interest really, is not so much about this “magician” but on the reaction(s) he provoques on his “victims”.
“Be there” for the last seconds of this specific recording…
I would even say skip the rest, yet, since it helps to understand the outcome…
Gratitude.
May 22, 2007 at 9:02 pm
Re WhaleRider’s #396
For an understanding of how the double-bind can be used, intentionally or unintentioanlly, in spiritual practice, see Alan Watts’ classic Psychotherapy East and West. It had a big impact on me when I was a Fellowship student, and made it impossible for me to ever again take seriously much of the jive that constitutes the Fellowship teachings.
May 22, 2007 at 9:38 pm
#418: Would the flock allow the guru to have an opposite sex harem, including married followers?
Of course. There are countless examples of this, going back for many, many years. Franklin Jones/Da Free John/Whatever is just one of the more Robert-like of the current group who happens to prefer women. The flock will allow anything. People roll their eyes at allusions to Jonestown, as though those poor fools were just ignorant slobs, while the Fellowship membership is so much more high-class, but I’m pretty confident that there are at least a couple hundred who would drink the Kool-Aid. After all, if someone has been a member for thirty years, and knowing everything he or she knows by now, and still buys into the Fellowship line, what basis is there to imagine he or she would draw the line anywhere? Does anyone really imagine that if it were undeniable that Robert had been implicated in someone’s murder, there wouldn’t be members rallying to his side, saying, calmly or otherwise, that he was being slandered, generating angles about how the lower cannot see the higher, citing instances from history of conscious beings having killed (“Abraham Lincoln ordered the execution of thousands! It was for the good of the whole! This was but one–and a criminal at that!”)
And, in response to an earlier post, I remember Ilan B. He was my friend. He died in a car crash at Renaissnce. Robert exploited the occasion to make some comment about the significance of the tear of blood Ilan shed as he died.
May 22, 2007 at 9:38 pm
I agree this blog provides a space to air lots of sentiments.
This is an amazing space, I said so in the past and keep telling you Sheik! what an amazing job you got from the Universe!
I quickly went from amazement to have found this blog, to re-living past unresolved feelings of anger, depression, and all the many mixed emotions I thought I had put behind.
Today I feel so much better and I am glad I contained my aggression towards some bloggers as well, when I read from some newcomers I see that more or less we have all being wounded to some degrees in the FOF (except for the few “happy” ones who are still there), even if we were simply deceived without the trauma.
We have to go through the process of feeling emotions even when it does not sound or feel so good to me and others.
I also agree with the people who say that truth can be percieved in some of the stories told here. Perhaps it is easier to feel the truth if you went through the process of being in the FOF.
I do not know how all of what has been told here sounds or feels to a complete outsider, however the Sheik seems to have very good perceptions and discernment.
I can also see how this place sometimes becomes an opportunity for revenge, we hold on to the past don’t we…I am sorry Joel sometimes gets the punches and so is Elena and even the quiet C. Randall.
Anonymity seems to allow more than otherwise we would let out.
I admire the people who state their true names and understand the need to stay hidden as well, I am doing it too.
For the true FOF believers if you think you really like Robert Burton and the life in the Fellowship I suggest an exercise:
Sit quietly and try emptying your mind, be present with your body and your breath, stay still until you feel a sense of emptyness and then like Rumi said:
ASK A DIFFICULT QUESTION,
AND THE MARVELOUS ANSWER APPEARS…
(I am not yelling by the way… 🙂
Try, but do not think, just see what comes to you when you make space in your mind and heart.
May 22, 2007 at 9:39 pm
blogbuster #399 You are my new hero! What an amazing post, “Homosexual and Transsexual Narcissists”! It begs the question: is Robert Burton’s behavior conscious or mechanical and predictable given his disorder? Is he operating from his conscious higher self or his unconscious lower self? Has he extinguished his conscience by mistaking it for ‘feminine dominance’?
SandraC #409 awesome post! I vouch for the delayed effect. I was in a state of shock to be having sex with the teacher. I observed myself starting to mold a personality to fit his liking, and it was like morphing into a worm. Reflecting back upon it still produces a lot of affect. It’s amazing what the mind can do.
JosephG #423 Thank you for your endurance in really sharing your heart. You speak from it, and I can feel that in your posts.
Lost in Space #418 Great reality testing! Thanks for that! I think it’s the taboo of being gay that masks most of RB’s behavior. One would think that being so conscious and everything, he’d want to be with another gay man to create a deeper, more meaningful relationship with another human to model healthy behavior to his followers. Guess not.
Comrade #419 Tears leaped from my eyes when you told me to keep shouting. Thank you for your acknowledgement. When you are an old fart like me, sometimes you wonder if anyone is listening.
suffering sucotash #417 ultimately, one doesn’t base the decision to leave the FOF farce solely on what is said by another or what they read, but by how it feels to be a member. Do these stories have a ring of truth or not? How do they make you feel? And when your heart and your head work in tandem, i.e. your conscience is kicked in, you will act. Then your conscience grows. If you fail to act, your conscience shrinks.
2b #408 I’d like to introduce you to Leonardo DiVinci, RB’s little ‘tic’ that he does. The little “angel that bobbles RB’s head every three seconds in the way that you have observed, to help keep him sufficiently dialed in. But that’s about where the consciousness bit ends.
Lust for Life #407 There’s a term for it in life when two people recount a pleasant shared memory, its called “euphoric recall”. Engaging in it releases endorphins in the brain as everyone gets all warm and fuzzy talking about their trip to Italy. That’s why drug addicts are careful not to romanticize to other drug addicts about their drug of choice. Too much recall sends them into a trance, the critical mind shuts down, they forget themselves, regress, and next thing you know they are knocking on the dealer’s door.
Last and least, Howard Carter #424
No, I will not allow you to revise your unambiguously and carefully crafted worded comment. Why on Earth would I do that? It’s evidence. It stands as a monument to your deception.
You said, “The ones who stay do so because to them there is no point in leaving.”
ROBERT BURTON and THE FELLOWSHIP OF FRIENDS employ double binds to create enough cognitive dissonance in its ardent followers to psychologically paralyze them into remaining members. It spins a web of lies around its victims to immobilize and isolate them from life while it drains them of their life force. The ongoing Fellowship ‘student’ is confronted by a plethora of conflicting issues: the need to belong, the wish to be liked, the fear of abandonment, the fear of spiritual death, fear of the unknown, the moral issue of homosexuality and promiscuity, sex with a minor, pleasing an authority figure, abuse of power, breaking the law, invasion of personal privacy, and freedom of religion…and it emotionally and intellectually overwhelms its members.
It is no surprise that the anxiety caused by so much cognitive dissonance is relieved by its members by drinking wine, a culture that the FOF promotes. Members are confronted by the conflict of leading a more conscious and spiritual life while having to endure the increasing perversions, extravagance, and greed of its leader, Robert Burton. The powerful fear of abandonment and fear of the unknown psychologically motivates the ardent member into self-censorship of any criticism of the leader’s style, thus remaining a “faithful” member and maintaining the status quo.
The FOF presents mixed messages through its spokespeople such as Howard Carter, that the faithful remain members because they have no other choice. The can stay members, pay the escalating dues or leave and face spiritual death. The rampant use of this psychologically binding dilemma is not unheard of in other religions. Most FOF members relieve the anxiety caused by these conflicts and fears by staying on and ingesting their feelings. Engaging in the act of suspending the conscience once, it gets easier. One eventually learns to accept increasing conflict and dissonance as one becomes desensitized to feelings of disgust and revulsion as the leader continues on his path of self-destruction.
One could reasonably predict that the least likely to leave the FOF will be those whom are employed by the FOF and paid handsomely. I believe that the damage caused by the FOF to individuals who repress their conscience is significant.
*****************************************
Howard Carter, I am your worst nightmare. I am the truth, and I hold the sword of Allah above your head. (Metaphorically speaking, of course) Are you unaware that the world you described as being not interested in spirituality is mostly comprised of devout Moslems? (Albeit, as in other religions, some more zealous that others)
You say, “The ones who stay do so because the school is the all and everything.”
I respectfully disagree. The All and Everything is the Absolute. World 1. The FOF is far from that. Those that will stay in your school are the ones that are well paid and afraid of the painful truth. They are the ones in limbo.
Whale Rider
1979-1985
May 22, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Not sure if this has been posted before, but a pretty good analysis of dysfunctional group behavior, “The Cult Test” which anyone can take, is online at:
http://www.orange-papers.org/orange-cult_q0.html
Check it out if you’re curious about what makes the FoF “special.”
JoelF
May 22, 2007 at 10:58 pm
Unoanimo (432): I like the little omen-ish misspelling of your word ‘humor’
There is this thing called British English…
More History Needed (434): I am sorry for you, you are part of my world and I love you.
No need to feel sorry for anyone. In my experience, feeling sorry causes pain and nothing else. I am not sure if you were speaking to me personally, but I love you too. I think that we are all parts of each others’ lives, if only for a short while every day.
We Were There (435): See you Saturday (I’ll be wearing the ‘I am not the Sheik tee shirt’)!
If you decide to mass produce those T-shirts, I would like to buy one of you.
All of you, have fun at the party.
May 22, 2007 at 11:04 pm
I opened up a new discussion board.
NEW DISCUSSION
This discussion is therefore being closed, you will only be able to comment in the new one. Old comments will stay here.
June 5, 2007 at 2:31 pm
[…] For part 9 click here. […]