Believe it or not, we are at it again. This time number 5.
For part 4 click here.
For part 3 click here.
For part 2 click here.
For the very first page and the initial article click here.
And as always, enjoy and have fun.
March 29, 2007
The Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part 5
Posted by Pavel under Discussion, Fellowship of Friends, Forum[393] Comments
March 29, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Dear Abraham,
Thanks for writing. (Since you invited me to do what I will with you letter –which I don’t feel inclined to post– I am posting my response to you on the blog). No, I am not Innernaught, but I’ll take that as a compliment. Also, I don’t live anywhere near Oregon House so I can’t come in to see you face to face, but thanks for inviting me.
While I agree that there are some mean voices on the blog from time to time (not all of them ex-students!), I think you are missing the point: most people are actually trying to help each other more than anything. (The blog has provided some unexpected healing for me.) Moreover, some people feel there is a grave danger within the dogma of the FOF (just read the “hell” letter [4/279] for a hint of it) that needs to be confronted and eradicated, if not in the organization, then in the minds and hearts of people we’d still perhaps could call friends. You can say that that was a long time ago or that you –or others– don’t believe that stuff but it’s undeniably there until officially acknowledged and revised by RB and/or the FOF that members are led to believe they will lose their soul/c-influence/chances at evolving, etc., if they leave the school. Using fear to psychologically entrap members is one definition of a cult.
You cite religious freedom along with freedom of expression in response to the charges of RB’s repeated sexual entanglements, to put it mildly (–the judges presiding in the several court cases about this issue in the past have no doubt used other language). Robert has a great deal of power over the men with whom he has sexual relations and to purport that it’s simply their choice to concede or leave is unconscionable. I ask you, is it not beholden for a “conscious being,” or to use less loaded language, a leader of a religious group, to not flagrantly use his powers –real or imagined– to meet his sexual needs with so many men, some of whom have been undeniably damaged by it?
I am sorry your hearing may be failing you but I trust that you still can hear the voice of your own conscience. I wish you all good things and the power to defend the true heart of the school, which yes, I and many others, have loved.
always and everywhere,
Dare to Dream
March 29, 2007 at 6:45 pm
I am very appreciative for posts 4-294 and 4-295. These are posts from students in the FOF that genuinely feel that they have and are receiving real school from the FOF. They are written in a tone that is mostly thoughtful, and I encourage those that can do this. I truly do appreciate the courage to try to articulate the predominate FOF point of view in a place where it may not be received with smiling nods. It is welcomed after the threats to be careful and is needed here.
I could of course go to FOF sources to hear the same thing, but there is something refreshing abut seeing these thoughts posted here where they are open to different points of view, leaving me to sort the real from the unreal based on my experiences.
You see, I really want to understand from my healthiest place what the FOF is and what it is not. It is critical at this point for me. I am truly in a midlife crisis. I really do value my own time and resources and where it goes matters more than ever before. I have the ability to contribute and it is important to me that my contributions are focused on something worthwhile. My foundation has been shaken, and not by this blog, but by what I have seen both in and out of the FOF and by my play which has cut to some degree the umbilical cord.
It is difficult to stay truthful and I admire anyone who can do it. When I am honest with myself I see such an odd combination of resentment, fear and love all mixed together. Resentment for some of my silly illusions, lost time and resources, and some of Robert’s actions; fear of the nothingness that exists for all of us, in and out, but which is buffered by illusion (in or out), and love for all that I have received, for the charmed life I have led, and especially for all my friends and even Robert as a persistent symbol for presence and possibilities on planet earth.
My distance from the core of the FOF is because while in the core I am blinded by the light (or is it cult thinking).
Please, those that feel a connection to real school in the FOF, do continue to contribute from your most honest place.
March 29, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Just a minor aside. Member (4/294), as far as I know, the claim that people were lured into this blog by someone stealing identity from the Fellowship administration has been spread and promoted only by the Fellowship administration itself. If you have personally received any email signed L.T. or A.B. or some other high-ranking person, containing a link to this blog, or if anyone else has received such email, could you please copy-paste the source text (including dates, outgoing servers etc.) of the email here with a big disclaimer note saying that it didn’t originate from the real L.T. or A.B. If you don’t know how to post source text, at least copy the body text, source email address and date, and paste it here. Thanks. End of squabble, back to more relevant issues.
March 29, 2007 at 7:24 pm
A few thoughts on Howard Carter’s post #4/295, particularly the final paragraph. I do not see a contradiction between a school being ‘real’ and a person graduating. A person can ‘graduate’ if they ‘wake up’, no? As for ‘dropping out’, that is not a student’s only option — how about a ‘transfer’, or ‘independent study’ under the guidance of a ‘tutor’ or ‘another teacher’ to continue the analogy?
At this point conversations often get a little testy. What does it mean to wake up? How do you know you’ve done it? In the FoF, the only one we consider able to make that pronouncement is Robert, and he hasn’t done it. Where would one ‘transfer’ to? Under whom would one do an ‘independent study’?
On the topic of awakening, Robert has much to say, as do G & O and so many many many others. Much of what is said is contradictory, and so I have in the past deferred to Robert’s version of things. But in the past year or so something changed, and I began to open up to many experiences, ideas, teachers (both alive and dead), with the intention to see what is in front of me, so to speak, and not to see it through the same glasses I had been wearing for 2 decades. The reason I felt I had to take off the glasses is because I felt I was at a standstill, and I wanted to reconsider as honestly as possible everything I felt I had acquired/left behind.
What happened for me is that I began to more clearly differentiate between what is Robert the human, and what is Robert the conscious being. Presumptuous? Perhaps, but if the FoF is a real School, certainly I must have learnt enough to be confident in my ability to do that, I thought. From another point of view, perhaps I didn’t even need the School to teach me it — after all I saw something in my prospective student meetings 20 years ago, and joined (and stayed!).
I really don’t know if I am ‘right’ or not, but I find myself trusting myself more — if I can somehow perceive/evaluate Robert to be a conscious being, why am I wrong to reach the same conclusions about another? At any rate that was the way I phrased it to myself. But if I decide the FoF is not for me any more, or for a time, it does not imply that it is not a School, or that Robert is not teaching, or that he is not conscious, or anything else. To phrase the discussion in those terms turns it into a formatory mudfight.
On occasion this blog is a hopeful and bright place to try and talk about some of these things. Isis used to be, in my experience, much more open to conversation and thought and sharing experiences. But that has been driven underground lately (hence the blog).
March 29, 2007 at 8:35 pm
For confused and other friends.
First thanks for this blog and all your contributions. Availability of information helps us to come to informed decisions
To confused .
The 5 obstacles to be present – imagination, identification, negative emotions, lying and inner considering, were very helpful years ago. Still lying gives me an uncomfortable feeling. Imagination I can be in imagination and be present, or more aware …something is watching. You can see your physical being in imagination. Robert thinks it is better to do something else…he answered this question years ago at a dinner, that we would like to be present and not in imagination. This is the saturnine approach. Venusians like to be in imagination and be aware….
Is one thing better then the other…? Good question to live.
Negative emotions are often an expression of something internal that needs attention, something is not right….Look behind it…what is there…
Identification…just watch when it happens….life and not being identified is
not happening, just watch.
Inner considering is such a blockade for friendship, often fear is behind inner considering.
Michel de Montaigne approach: is very practical:
We need very strong ears to hear ourselves judged frankly, and because there are few who can endure frank criticism without being stung by it, those who venture to criticize us perform a remarkable act of friendship, for to undertake to wound or offend a man for his own good is to have a healthy love for him.
Is it a brainwashing idea? It is how you respond to it. If you quite living questions or better said, living the mystery it might become a brain wash, if you verify and observe and let awareness and stillness come in….you got your answer.
I hope this is helpful and practical, for you.
March 29, 2007 at 9:09 pm
He’s not the messiah
he’s a very naughty boy!
March 29, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Mole (part 4, 261) – Yes, I agree, it is truly humiliating to realize we have been “idiots one and all”, yet Traveler (part 3, 179) has an explanation that helps us see how it happened. One of the characteristics of people attracted to cults is supposed to be inadequacy. I did feel inadequate, not that I felt other people were better than me, but in the sense that everyone else seemed to believe what they said and did, had opinions and viewpoints that were part of their identity and that they were committed to. I was never able to convince myself that the personas that manifested were really ‘me’, they never felt very real or convincing, but it never occurred to me that this was fine, and I could just go on experiencing it, the changing states, emotions, thoughts, the play as it unfolded. ‘Developmental deficiencies’ perhaps or maybe it was just the normal insecurities of young adulthood. Also, I often had the sense that I had forgotten something, so when I came across the FOF and heard about self-remembering it seemed like I had found something that I had been searching for. And being in it did help me learn the value of making efforts and reaping the rewards, and being present and appreciative and accepting and taking risks…though maybe they were qualities that would have developed without the FOF, who knows? Despite this, there were always nagging doubts about some things that were difficult to ‘verify’, and I reverted to the assumption that others appeared to know, so the weakness must be in me; typical cult behaviour, conforming to the majority opinion. But again, that happens everywhere, in whatever group we work or live in. Kid Sheleen (part 4, 261), many people are looking for an authority figure, or at least, approval from one’s peers in one way or another, so this does not fully explain why we joined the FOF. Maybe more to do with wanting to feel different and special, and most people want this as well, but maybe just get it from elsewhere. Anyway, whether or not we regret joining and / or staying in the FOF, the quotes in my post (part 4, 139) give good advice on how to move on without bitterness, which is very important I think because most negativity is based on the fear of seeing things how they are, and can stop us learning more about ourselves and the world. This realization has grown partly from being in the FOF, in the process of leaving, and since. As for your post (part 4, 278) Mole, surely everyone in the FOF who has an ounce of insight and has been reading this blog is shitting their pants…seeing one’s comfortable existence threatened, whether conceptually, morally or materially, fills us with fear and the desire to protect ourselves, and yet if we can see this, look deeper and find that what is threatened is only superficial, and that it is really an opportunity to discover more, and exist on a deeper level, we only gain! Nothing is wasted; the more honest we can be with ourselves, the more we gain somehow: ‘He that is good for making excuses is seldom good for anything else.’ (Benjamin Franklin)
March 29, 2007 at 10:05 pm
I’d like to ask Howard Carter post # 295 part 4 where he gets his assertions about ‘Schools’ their function,the laws governing them and so on.
As far as my research on the subject has taken me, the whole idea that Schools even exist originates with Gurdjieff.Ouspensky and then Rodney Collin further formulated and developed this idea in their writings including speculating that such historical monuments such as the Gothic Cathedrals were produced by schools and that in fact a real School always had some definite larger Task or Aim in addition to ‘producing conciousness in its members’
However, there is no historical evidence to support any of this and again I’d like to emphasize that these definitions all originated with Gurdjieff. There was much speculation about the whereabouts or existence of the School that he hinted he had been in but again, no one ever found anything, including J.G.Bennet who was more or less obsessed with tracing the source of Gurdjieffs knowledge.
And of course we have Robert Burtons take on the whole thing. But can any of it be really verified ? That people such as Shakespeare,Bach and so on are now in ‘Higher school’….Hmmm.
That the center of all school teachings throughout time is ‘The Sequence’?
I know that Ouspensky said that certain things can only be understood when one is in a ‘certain state’
From my experience of ‘certain states’ all this theorising is just that..the mind trying to explain something beyond it’s realm.
So, while I’m in the realm of the mind I’ll throw in a few more spanners.
The latest ‘evidence’of the earliest ‘Prehistoric school’,the cave drawing of a man having intercourse with a woman from behind her, and the accompanying explanations of how it is all about the Sequence,Steward,Nine of hearts etc struck me as advanced lunacy.
Here is how I saw it.
You live in a cave.Your life has the following factors.Large,dangerous animals roaming around from which your only defense is puny bow and arrows and hand held spears,clubs and suchlike.You have to hunt for your food.Probably other cave dwellers would like to hunt you too if you have more women than he does.Sex is one of your main pleasures. So, on the ceiling of your ‘bedroom’ an artist draws depictions of the the most important events ,fears and pleasures in your life.A charging Mammoth,a friend, or perhaps an enemy, in the moments before he is crushed.A fearsome Rhinocerous. A couple engaging in sex.
Cut forward thirty thousand years or so to the ‘Last schoolon earth’On the ceiling of the house ( modern cave )of the leader/teacher/headtribesman there are paintings of what interests him the most.Young men naked in various states of erection. Many have faces we recognise.
Are these the coded messages that will be left for posterity ? or are they simply just what they appear to be ?
You don’t have to answer here.Just think about it.
March 29, 2007 at 10:59 pm
No one to play with
in this town,
You just can’t sit around
I’m moving home
where essence plays,
bang, bang, no mind
You just can’t fool around
The job is done
the seed is dug
‘Tis time to go inside
The work moves on
So long.
Got no fear of your bang, bangs
I married the gun,
Don’t you know
I already died?
Better men have died
for lesser causes,
why not me?
March 29, 2007 at 11:16 pm
To another name:
In my experience, as soon as you watch, imagination goes!
The senses (see, touch, smell, hear, taste) are great doors to experiencing the present, while the brain activity distract you.
I do not benefit much from the “sequence” because it brings me back in linear time 123456 + 4. The 30 work I’s are also confusing because they lable the experiences. They help understanding but not being present.
The School was/is for people “who know too much” (G. & U.)but we do not really want to give up knowing, on the contrary, we want more and more…
Robert is enlarging the “material” till the prehistoric (who could have predicted that! How many civilisations left ?) because the love to be “students” is greater than the one to be “free”. Robert, in that sense, is reflecting that!
I wonder if we even do not love being “voyeuristes”, looking forward to see some photos of Robert’s possible “insanity” as a private man fond of gold and sex…
As honnestly as possible, answer this 3 simple questions :
Which values are you consistently living ?
What value do the people you admire exemplify ?
Which value do you want to live more ?
Have fun!
March 29, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Dear Fence rider,
Thanks for your contribution.
One beautiful insight, of a dear friend, which I want to share with you is: midlife crisis, (andropause/ menopause) is a realization of our mortality).
Hope this helps…live the mystery. Love
March 29, 2007 at 11:44 pm
A prominent member of the FOF who has been labeled a “man number five” by the FOF teacher has recently sent an email message to all students expressing his views on this blog and how students might approach it.
It was nice to read that he believes that each student must come to their own relationship to this blog. What a relief to read such openness of mind.
Then he goes on to advise students to read his 1985 essay on “Former Students” in order to “help” them (I suppose). One could only hope that his position would have changed from such immature and outdated notions expressed in that essay. So, please read it and exercise your discrimination in spiritual diet.
Most of those who left the school simply never came back to share their “progress” in the work. Some left negative, for sure. (And many stayed in the FOF negative! — just read this blog.) Some went “forward” spiritually in such a way that very few in the FOF, until today, would be able to relate to.
He mentions in the essay the teacher’s also outdated and immature view that there are no other ways outside of the FOF. This is blatantly wrong and reflects the presence in the teacher’s being (at least then) of those traits that we would all like to be free from and for which reason we all engage ourselves in spiritual work to start with: attachment and fear.
At the end of the essay he very nicely states that one must lose oneself or surrender to something higher. One could only hope that he, being a man number five, would truly live by those words by abiding as the Understanding that the “something higher” is not angels or gods, a teacher, a shool or anything tangible or conceivable “out there” but that the “something higher” is the very Core, the very Self that we are: Consciousness, Being, Love.
Because of your role in the FOF, dear friend number five, and because I truly care for my friends who are still temporarily dependent on the wisdom expressed by other men and women, I’d like to invite you to reflect on your “Former Students” essay and write a new one from a more mature place, which could match the current state of affairs in the FOF. Students are growing up whether you help them or not to take flight and be That which is Needless and Fearless and Loss-less. Are you living as That which is Needless and Fearless and Loss-less?
Regarding your not feeling compelled to write here in the blog, your expressing such stance at large to FOF members only indicates a subtle desire that others follow your example which is truly meaningless for those who are ready to follow their conscience and do what you suggested earlier in your letter: to find their own relationship to the blog.
Having said that, it is true that there is a kindergarten level in the FOF and while students request it there will be a teaching on that level — just as there are religions in the world for those who ask for it. For those who are ready to move on we have this blog, as well as the direct availability and contact (Influence C) with former and current students who live in Freedom (not negative) beyond the set boundaries of the FOF or any other set of rules — free from feminine dominance and suffering. Would anybody be interested in that?
As for being centered in the higher emotional center, what I can say is that since I came to know who I truly Am (with the help of a teacher outside of the FOF), my life has been lived from Love and Wisdom. That is, from complete acceptance and free from the imagination of being separate from the Divine and its accompanying unnecessary suffering such as fear and attachment — free from ideas about myself or you or the world or existence itself. I simply Am. Very much like what the wise men describe it would be beyond the end of the way.
So, being a man number zero, and in remembrance that friends, and not the institution (which is but a concept), is what matters in any fellowship, I send you my love — which is neither mine nor does it move. You and I ARE this love. Were we all living such a simple truth we would not be in need of this much talk or be over-valuing those things which were born and must therefore die.
A Friend in the FOF
March 30, 2007 at 12:05 am
To the Truly Sincere FOF students (David and Fence Rider and others)
Your soul searching reminds me of the 2-3 years of ‘confusion’ and ‘suffering’ that preceeded my leaving the FOF after 20+ years.
And for several months after, I kept questioning whether Robert is or was a ‘Concious Being’ . The truth of the matter, is that we couldn’t recognize a conscious being if we tripped over him in the street. Yes, Robert, I will grant you has some kind of power – both over his students, and perhaps has achieved prolonged various states.
Awakening is not something in the future- something you will achieve at some future date (this or next lifetime). Look around you. Look around slowly. Look inside.You are THAT already.
Unless you are a qualified pyschologist, why bother trying to analyse RB. Don’t waste your time. Best to recognize that something in you 20+ years ago needed a Robert, needed the lifestyle that he gave us, needed to feel special, needed the system- which if you look around the FOF has attracted some pretty intelligent people- like the blog indicates “cult for intellectuals”, and needed a community with like minded people. In the final stages, just before leaving the FOF, what really aggitates, when you look inside, is that you thought you were smarter and more discerning than what you (and yes me) attracted quite a few years ago. Believe me, when I say, that is just mind activity. Ignore it.
Look at this way. That was then. You (we) were younger, disallusioned with life, perhaps hurting from something in our upbringing that we were not aware of , and here comes a system with a figurehead that is going to give us all the answers. Boy, what a relief it was then.
I am serious when I say that we have matured, grown up, graduated, and yes got something along the way. But it is really time to move on. Down the road, do you really want to face the last 5-10 years of your life, and regret not having lived it?
For those of us who have left, and you know who we are- you are welcome to contact any one of us. There are no regrets in regards to the FOF or Robert. We just live our lives fully. Everything is perfection- it cannot be any other way. The past is something which you constantly bring up in the present, and that mind activity is what gives you the suffering. There is only the present (and you need no technique to achieve what you already are – awareness). Nothing, nothing is worth suffering for. There is only the moment- and we (all 8 billion of us) are being given the opportunity to live it. The choice is yours. Nobody , including RB can tell you otherwise.
March 30, 2007 at 12:09 am
Patricio #298
I agree. I am an idiot. As near as i can tell everyone else is an idiot too. Not much of a self that only comes around every once and a while after great efforts and suffering; not much of a self that just sits around eternally witnessing.
But i enjoy the open dialogue. Each idiot’s look at things, each angle (remember that concept before fascist thought took over) No concept will remain sacred. Each one will be pulled off the pedestal. It will be looked at from the bottom, the top, and the sides. It will be shaken and weighed then thrown to the floor and broken into all the pieces of its component parts. Each piece will be picked up and looked at from the side, the bottom and the top and shaken and weighed. When all the pieces are gone and nothing remains it will be pulled off the pedestal and looked at from all sides examined completely and thrown away.
Yes, we are all idiots. If you wish to join the club i will give you an easy concept to begin with:
We live in a universe in which one man has become a “conscious” thing guided by a number of other eternal “conscious” things. There are about 2000 or so potentially “conscious” things in limbo which may or may not over many “lifetimes” escape and become “conscious” things ruling over this universe. Billions are going to “hell”.
I am beginning with this very simple one because i believe you to be an exceptional idiot. If you prove yourself worthy and wish to continue to play i will present more complicated concepts to be deconstructed such as we are the Witness.
March 30, 2007 at 12:21 am
My friend Be, who was 76 and had been in the school for over thirty years, was asked not to go to dinners because she ate one too many biscuits at a tea.
My friend Hold, who is half blind, was asked to take a leave of absence because he closed his eyes at a meeting.
My friend Pray, was hit by her husband various times and told nothing would happen to him because he belonged to the Teacher’s inner circle.
My friend Back, was told to take a leave absence because it was feminine dominance to ask for help for an 87 year old woman with alzheimer.
My friend Act, gave up dancing after 15 years because she never fitted the “form” of the school.
My friend Leave, left because he was never able to share his gracious Art within the form of the teaching.
My friend Kneel, had to play the part of being the teacher’s stable mate so that it all looked more legitimate. Not a word ever came out of his mouth.
My friend Drop, served for years in any octave and was then dropped.
My friend Use, was used for years in any octave and then dropped.
My friend wit, was told not to speak.
My friend Look, was told not to speak.
My friend Move, was told not to move.
My friend Taste, was told not to taste.
My friend Hear, could not hear for no one talked.
My friend Think, could not think because consciousness is not functions.
My very best friend Read, was prompted to leave her husband because he never lay with the Teacher.
My friend write, was forbidden to write.
My friend Child, shot herself and survived.
My friend Serve, served all these.
My friend Scale, brought Scale and Relativity to it all.
My friend Aim, said: The shot turned around against them and killed them all.
My friend Time, gave up her child and was still unable to find compassion for herself after twenty years.
My friend God, turned his back.
March 30, 2007 at 12:27 am
re: 287 No person ‘Can anyone here actually honestly SEE the lower (or higher ) self?’
Yes. I have had many clear glimpses of the lower self over the last several months. And it is nothing like what I might have imagined from reading the Philokalia descriptions of the devil and yet it is exactly like these descriptions after having experienced it. I have only been able to see it when trying to remember myself using the sequence and having much better results than usual. There is something in me that is threatened by these efforts and tries with obvious desperation to send me back into a state of uncontrolled mind activity. It has always been successful thus far and I return to my normal state of me.
No clear sightings of the higher self however. There is something that is making the effort at self remembering that is distinct from that which is threatened by it. This may be a seed of something but I am not that far along to say I have seen the higher self. At this point I have no doubt that there is something one could call the higher self and with the right practice, experiencing it eventually is mathematical.
March 30, 2007 at 12:32 am
The whole game of the Universe named FOF is a perfect set up for all of us to come to realize our true being. We are all here hooked-up in similar ways: beauty, kindness, goodness, righteousness, intelligent cultural environment, parent/child or teacher/student issues, authorities’ approvals issues, a bit of desire of experiencing “how does it feel to belong to upper-class/chosen ones”, but without necessity to experience all the falseness of this world, in other words: “bad things do not happen to good people” (teachers are not betraying their students, authorities give praises to those who deserve it etc.).
We all have found all these things in our FOF lives, surprisingly, for the purpose to let them all to crush at the appointed time. When one is absolutely frustrated with the fact that all the good ideas are not true or are not working anymore, only then, one can start really looking within, asking a question for the very first time with such piercing depth: What do I need? What do I want? Who am I, really?
One feels astonished at first, and then – free, because this is indeed the first time when this question is not stated by anyone else, but arises within you. One finally starts feeling like not waiting anymore for the teacher to give you an answer.
This seems to happen to all of us, sooner or later, and thanks to the whole set up indeed for delivering us to such point. It’s very effective.
At a certain point though, it seems like, we are coming to this not “because of” (goodness and intelligent guidance of a teacher, stimulating high ideas of the school), as we hoped, but “despite of” (extravagance of the first and contradictions of the second). But when one is hooked up on “goodness in everything”, what else one can expect as a lesson? As long as we all guided by a teacher who meets our “good expectations”, we will endlessly look at him, trying to merge…
As I see it now, there are many students ready to realize that they can’t be seekers anymore, and there are many others, who want to stay with being a seeker for a while. There is no apple which doesn’t leave the tree, so we all come to realize who we are. And FOF provides an excellent and a very effective ground for it. This is how the Universe wants to come to realization of itself in this particular case.
Some other people’ hook-ups are different, maybe connected to extreme independence, so they would never stumble across FOF, because they would have no need in such experience. They will have something else, and this also will be the way for the Universe to realize itself, in a different way – in fact, each time – through a different and unique experience.
Statements like “I’m leaving because I want to awaken” or “THAT thing happened to me, so there is no point to stay” sound dualistic because of opposition. Awakening (if such thing exists at all) is not prohibited anywhere. One can stay in the FOF, or leave – it only depends on what is the very next obvious thing to do for you.
In fact, even Robert himself keeps saying at the events “You are all conscious beings here at this room”. What more obvious one can say to give people permission to awakening? It’s just that many still don’t experience an urge to hear this.
One doesn’t get praised or approved though, neither by the teacher, nor by other authorities. But if you’ve really come to realization of your own true nature, you don’t need this. You don’t even need to start speaking to all your friends or to your teacher, trying to describe, what a beautiful thing happened to you. THAT Thing ceases its existence immediately after.
You just keep being, doing what is what really apparent to do, the very next step, allowing the Truth to manifest itself, relaxing your body for the service may come through you freely. One can offer ones understanding to those who ask, but one can not draw apples closer to the ground. Allow other people to have their own experience, because their case – is again, how the Universe wants to come to the realization of itself in its unique way.
For the relativity, in one of the recent conversations with John Wheeler (one of the “pointers” to the Truth, who met already a few FOF students/ex students), he said “People from the Fellowship come very well prepared”.
It gives a big credit to the whole creation of the consciousness – the whole FOF set up, including all of ours and particularly Robert Burton’s roles – a big credit. As for myself, I wouldn’t change any little bit in my own experience of it, because to the very last instance, it delivered me to the place I’m right now. And it will keep playing its role, until the very last one comes to the Truth. (So, things may get worse actually, because, it seems like what already happened, is still not enough for some).
Meanwhile, one can speak with many Fellowship students quite sincerely, when one doesn’t try to push them, just offering your humble understanding, not forgetting, it also is not real. The Truth of being in each of us wants to come to its own realization, do we want it or not, and it responses, when one speaks from the Truth, without even a subtle confrontation.
Robert Burton’s role creates a perfect both – inspiring and denying – force for our hook-ups, and it will keep doing this until we all grow up. Looks like most of us now trying to figure out, how to give him a feedback or whether that is generally possible. My best understanding of it now is that we might come to experience through our bodies: after seeing and naming things happening in the Fellowship for what they are, not trying to find proper explanations for all the mess around, disappointed, humiliated, astonished, alive and transparent, we say “Our dearest longtime friend, we love you dearly, and we can play neither roles of your kids, nor of your parents anymore. Not that we deny them, but we are just by a definition not capable of it. We can be your partners though, because we see how unreal all the appearances are and that we are all One, if at all, your role is to be a partner”.
The role may cease its existence, because of accomplishment of its task.
We all saw this: he (without a conscious plan) is mirroring our fears and uncertainty (quite often by violent using of it); sort of that it is the Universe recreating our worst fears for us through his role, so that we can withstand them.
My love to all of you, my friends, in or out.
March 30, 2007 at 12:38 am
Dear Dare to Dream:
Did we know each other? It is fine to call, whether we ever did or not.
Thank you for the kind words below, and the continued love you express for the true heart of the School.
As for some of the things you write below, I think most of it is directed to others. One thing you appear to have confused, or misunderstood, is my reference to freedom of religion. My reference, copied below, and highlighted in by original letter, says:
As for the invitation to engage the issues you mention in a free-for-all “mudfest” on the blog, I can’t speak for the Fellowship or Mr. Burton on this at the moment, but my guess is that it is not a very good place for such a thing. Just look at what happened between “innernaught” and “crybaby”! Also, the Fellowship and its members have the right to review the many allegations you mention under their own rules: freedom of religion is equal with freedom of speech in the Constitution.
This is not a response to any “charges”, but that the Fellowship has the right under the Constitution to review those “charges” under its own internal rules, as do other religious organizations. As headlines in recent days have shown, blogs can be very dangerous, even threatening, to innocent people.
Actually, as I wrote to the only other “real” person (other than spammers) who contacted Be Careful, an anonymous current student who stated he was one of my friends, the December “Issac Assimov” anonymous email prompted the review process provided for in the Fellowship Bylaws and Canons. All aspects of the First Amendment are engaged now.
I have not read the blog since sending you my reply. Hopefully, you have not misquoted or misrepresented my letter to you, which you state you did not post to the blog, even though you were posting your reply. Far too much confusion and misinformation has been created by the blog already. Even worse, it seems from reading a prior post from my good friend, Steven Simmonds, if I remember it right and understood it, that the blog may have caused current students to be fearful of someone as gentle and good hearted as Steven! What a shame!
Just to be on the safe side, and that all can see what you were replying to, I will post this entire discussion as I am sending it to you, and check the blog when I have time for recent events.
Again, please feel free to call if you wish.
Abraham Goldman
——————————————————————————–
From: Zarathustra Music Inc. [mailto:nightmarket@earthlink.net]
Sent: Thursday, March 29, 2007 10:30 AM
To: Abraham Goldman
Subject: Re: FOF blog
Dear Abraham,
Thanks for writing. (Since you invited me to do what I will with you letter –which I don’t feel inclined to post– I am posting my response to you on the blog). No, I am not Innernaught, but I’ll take that as a compliment. Also, I don’t live anywhere near Oregon House so I can’t come in to see you face to face, but thanks for inviting me.
While I agree that there are some mean voices on the blog from time to time (not all of them ex-students!), I think you are missing the point: most people are actually trying to help each other more than anything. (The blog has provided some unexpected healing for me.) Moreover, some people feel there is a grave danger within the dogma of the FOF (just read the “hell” letter for a hint of it) that needs to be confronted and eradicated, if not in the organization, then in the minds and hearts of people we’d still like to call friends. You can say that that was a long time ago or that you –or others– don’t believe that stuff but it’s undeniably there until officially acknowledged and revised by RB and/or the FOF that members are led to believe they will lose their soul/c-influence/chances at evolving, etc., if they leave the school. Using fear to psychologically entrap members is one definition of a cult.
You cite religious freedom along with freedom of expression in response to the charges of RB’s repeated sexual entanglements, to put it mildly (–the judges presiding in the several court cases about this issue in the past have no doubt used other language). Robert has a great deal of power over the men with whom he has sexual relations and to purport that it’s simply their choice to concede or leave is unconscionable. I ask you, is it not beholden for a “conscious being,” or to use less loaded language, a leader of a religious group, to not flagrantly use his powers –real or imagined– to meet his sexual needs with so many men, some of whom have been undeniably damaged by it?
I am sorry your hearing may be failing you but I trust that you still can hear the voice of your own conscience. I wish you all good things and the power to defend the true heart of the school, which yes, I and many others, have loved.
always and everywhere,
Dare to Dream
On Mar 29, 2007, at 12:39 AM, Abraham Goldman wrote:
Dear Zarathustra/Dare, (and possibly innernaught?):
Your email below was forwarded to me. I am sorry that other responsibilities took a lot of time yesterday and today, and I can only reply now.
Also, the reply was delayed because some people have been using identity theft again, stealing the names of real Fellowship members to send false messages, and a few emails with virus attached, to the special email address arjunavishnu@gmail.com set up by the people who are reviewing the messages to the blog, the replies to the Be Careful posts, and all of the other accusations that began with the scandalous “Issac Assimov” email in December, and all of the cyber activities described in the Be Careful posts. Thus the slight protection of using a new email address arjunavishnu@gmail.com
In the future, please feel free to email directly to my office address above.
“Innernaught” wrote a stinging note to “Cry Baby”, which contained the story about Jessica Lee. I’m assuming you are “innernaught”, but with all the anonymous emails and messages, I could be totally wrong on that.
I read “innernaught’s” replies to the last Be Careful post, indicating that the story was meant as a compliment to Jessica. Taking that as true, it is unfortunate that the blog has been such a negative battleground much of the time, with hard words, even fighting words. For many people reading the “innernaught” reply to “cry baby” it seemed like the “change in Jessica’s voice”, referred to in the message, and not making it clear who in the group was saying what, made a comparison of Jessica to the rather strong condemnation of “cry baby”. It is nice to know that you, or “innernaught” knew Jessica and benefited from her beautiful being.
Since you knew Jessica, and were at her funeral, as I was, we may know each other from the past. You probably recognize me as being the pro bono lawyer for the Fellowship.
That being said, yes, the letters from Linda and Kevin, the letter from Girard, and the Be Careful messages are all genuine, authorized communications by the Fellowship and Robert Burton.
As for knowing who you are, or even if you are “innernaught”, I don’t have a clue. Even if I did, though, it would not matter. I have never had a personal grudge against a former student, or wished them other than well. That even includes the two former students who sued me and the Fellowship and every other unlikely person who had ever been on the Board of Directors, such as Claire Bowen, (unfairly named in some of the blog references to the lawsuit), and who you must know as a totally sweet and innocent person. Many of the former students who have identified themselves, Charles, Phillip, Zusa, Ralph, and many others, especially Steven Simmonds, and a few not yet named, were dear friends of mine; even former clients, both individually and when they had a Fellowship role. I could not wish them ill even if I tried, and I would never want to try. Nor is there ever any need to between current and former students. I think all of the friends mentioned above will confirm this for you.
The only people I have taken umbrage with personally was the person who falsely joined the Fellowship to steal the Ming Furniture collection, and the para-military Olivehurst Gospel Assembly, quoted on the blog (Michelle Milligan, the OGA editor, somewhere on Volume 1) making death threats against Robert Burton, and me, because I had the job to protect the School you may have loved to at the time. Also, I do not think I like the people who have been stealing my friends’ names to send out false emails, blog posts, and virus infected attachments. And so, I still have the job of protecting the School and Teacher many students continue to love, from such things.
The confusion of words in a heated written exchange between “innernaught” and “cry baby” created a possible misunderstanding about the reference to Jessica? Written exchanges tend to do that, and free-for all blogs all the more so.
So, I invite you to come by my office to talk face to face about the concerns you mention. That is real communication, unlike the blog. You can also call me at my office: 530 692-2267, although, because of my deafness, face to face is much better, as well as more real. Please do come in or call. Anything we discuss can be as confidential as you desire, and you can make the appointment under any name you wish.
As for the invitation to engage the issues you mention in a free-for-all “mudfest” on the blog, I can’t speak for the Fellowship or Mr. Burton on this at the moment, but my guess is that it is not a very good place for such a thing. Just look at what happened between “innernaught” and “crybaby”! Also, the Fellowship and its members have the right to review the many allegations you mention under their own rules: freedom of religion is equal with freedom of speech in the Constitution.
My invitation to talk extends not only to you, but to anyone: my door is open. Also, please feel free to ask for copies of the false materials referred to in Be Careful.
I think the blog reply by “innernaught” mentioned that the letter below was both published on the blog and sent to arjunavishnu@gmail.com
You may send this letter to “innernaught”, or do with it what you will.
Abraham Goldman
March 30, 2007 at 12:41 am
In partial response to Howard Carter (4/295), I have compiled some statistics on the FOF Discussion Forum I through IV. Acknowledged duplicate blog names have been combined as much as possible and the Sheik and Knight’s contirbutions are not included in this sample. Total number of all posts in the sample wa 1,218.
Posted only once 131
Posted 2wice 40
Posted 3 times 19
Posted 4 to 10 times 60
Posted 11 to 20 times 18
Posted 20+ times 8
Posted in all 4 blogs 8
Posted in 3 blogs 24
Posted in 2 blogs 55
Posed in 1 blog only 198
Unique Blog Names – Blog I 99
Unique Blog Names – Blog II 105
Unique Blog Names – Blog III 110
Unique Blog Names – Blog IV 108
This discussion forum offers everyone the unique opportunity to stand or fall on their own words.
No authority, no charisma – WHAT YOU SAY IS WHAT WE GET!
And you/we are judged not on (y)our sincerity but on (y)our ability to articulate (y)our position.
You/we should ask no more and demand no less.
And that, as another poster is fond of saying, is a sure thing!
March 30, 2007 at 1:21 am
From Mr Ouspensky :
Q. Where is the line between trust and respect to the Teacher versus pretending that the Teacher can do no wrong?_
A. Forget that the Teacher can do no wrong. This sort of immature projection is what seekers do as a way to avoid responsibilities for them selves. One should never give their good (common) sense away and if they do it is their own fault. Mature respect and trust are always earned. If the student gives it immediately, this is not only immature but dangerous. It is a sign that the seeker is not looking for the truth but for a father or mother figure- someone to tell them what to do and to relieve them of the insecurity of knowing the truth.
March 30, 2007 at 1:23 am
Or maybe he’s making up for a couple of lifetimes as a celibate thus demonstrating how dangerous it can be to control what is perceived as the “bad.”
March 30, 2007 at 1:30 am
Hello all-
I want to thank Howard carter and member for their views and voicing my own perception of being in the FOF.
I find it ridiculous that those who still remain in the school and get what they came for( and much more) are so convieniently now ‘brainwashed’.
I’ve been around out there in the world and seen a thing or two, I’ve done the Sufi thing the Buddhist thing and a few other things to boot. In short this school is another level- I don’t know why but it is. Is it C influence? Yes I think so
Can i prove it? No
Do I want to? No
If you stick around any school/group whatever you’ll eventually find contradictions.
Why? Because you are a contradiction and as in all things we eventually see ourselves.
I have found it very revealing to re read some of this blog with that idea in mind, that what we all see happening ‘out there’ is actually what is inside us and we describe our own inner landscapes as opposed to some objective truth about Robert or the school.
Like others have said there is no revelatory disclosures about Robert or anyone else. I am aware of Robert’s sexual life and i’m not shocked or disgusted by it. In fact I’m rather inspired!
So Gurdjieff had it all wrong!? man is not a machine?! that was really funny. Oh well woops silly George.
What is Elena Haven talking about? All those words- that whole monologue about God knows what!!! Yikes.
The energy behind some of these postings is a bit out there- that’s the kind of energy I associate with someone who is prone to brain washing.
Rita were you not ‘brainwashed’ in India?
Interesting area to think about…
Oh well back to the dishes…
Good luck to all.
By the way this blog is not as some might think ‘Free speech’ .My last posting was axed.
March 30, 2007 at 1:39 am
Another member (22): Nonsense. I haven’t deleted, or changed a single comment in the last 2 days.
More Cry Baby energy, awesome.
March 30, 2007 at 1:52 am
Howard Carter #295
I just thought i would mention it though you may have re-read the blog and seen it already.
You were making a fairly perceptive critique of the blog. You were making some theoretical and philosophical leaps but it seemed interesting and pretty resonable.
Then you got up to get a cup of coffee or glass of wine and while you were out a retarded monkey got on your keyboard and typed another paragraph or two and clicked on the submit key.
Please continue contributing but keep the retard monkey in its cage.
March 30, 2007 at 2:12 am
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/c/a/2007/03/29/MNGT3OTVAO1.DTL
March 30, 2007 at 2:53 am
“…each School is a shock to those mechanics; If we follow a Teacher, we end up molding ourselves by his subjectivity and end up loving not only the ballet…”
Gee, dear, just wondering how many other schools you have had experience of. Relativity, remember? Or is that too passe?? Oh, forgive me, I mean Schools.
Also in the same vein, what about teachers? oh, dear me, there I go again, I mean, Teachers.
Please help me on this one as I really wish to mold myself, uh, I mean mold my Self.
I really don’t know about that ballet stuff though….
March 30, 2007 at 2:54 am
To #15, No accounts:
I read your story, and I weep.
March 30, 2007 at 2:58 am
“In fact, even Robert himself keeps saying at the events “You are all conscious beings here at this room”. ”
How original!
March 30, 2007 at 3:15 am
(22) Sometimes a post disappears for a bit while it’s being moderated, but it always seems to come back. A patient man waits for no one.
March 30, 2007 at 3:27 am
The unlived life is not worth living. AM
(With apologies to Socrates who probably stole it form the Egyptians who probably stole it from the Sumerians who probably stole it from Aliens who crash landed in a place what is now called Crouch End London UK)
Could it possibly be that the 4th Way takes one in the opposite direction to what awakening can be in order to show us what awakening really is, and the concepts of ‘steward’ for example are part of the deception. Could it possibly be that Gurdjieff deceived us by saying that ‘man is a machine’ in order to help us wake up to the actuality of man and to see more clearly into the essence of humanity?).
Rita, Charles and 30 year student who wrote of their states of presence – the mind is tricky, the Way uncertain, the illusion seductive. I don’t believe you…I don’t believe you
Bruce, you asked what to do with all the knowledge? Dismantle it,break it down, and transform it into something new..
Alexis
March 30, 2007 at 3:32 am
CONSCIOUSNESS, STATES, ENLIGHTMENT…?
In this blog (thank God there is a blog and a Sheik who plays this role and endures all of us), we see questions on a regular base as; RB School has only produced one conscious being? Or are we more awake or what did we gain on our spiritual path in the FOF?
Brace your self, according to me there are several people who have seen the light, G, E, K,S, C, S, T, A, J, I, B, C,P. Some longer then others. So what? Are they better people…what makes them different? Being in a higher state for a while might give you a taste of what is possible. You still have to go to the bathroom and it still has the same smell.
What those people are going to do with their insights, their light, is the question? Are they going to teach because they saw, THE LIGHT? Some, maybe Kiran. He is an example, he obviously went through some internal intense experiences…Many people who had a near death experience, out of body experience have become different and I am happy that those people did not all started to teach. Many become more gentle, softer, more grateful, take up less space, compassionate…
I had a conversation with somebody who had gone through many experiences like this and she said…I try not to use many words they only make interactions, more dusty, more unclear….
One friend who has seen the light and is holding it, and watches it;said: “why do people just not try to find out who they are and from this place wait ….” Yes a passive type who respects others and tries to be out of the way, not to stir up dust…and do.
So maybe we are all having the light and by being active, first force we are stirring up dust, can not see the light? Hope to keep living the mystery enjoy it, now.
Love to all of you.
March 30, 2007 at 4:07 am
So many great posts… And just in a day! Thank you, For the relativity, A Friend in the FOF, Flying Free, and many others whether we seem to agree or not.
Dear With malice toward none, thank you for your contribution about seeing lower self. I relate to it, and understand your point. I used to think so too, when observing some manifestations. However, what I was talking about is much simplier. It’s almost like childs kind of observing – what do you REALLY see, with your eyes? We are breaking it down to the scale of present moment, OK? When we observe something in our immediate present moment – it is usually simply an object, a thought or feeling, right? Let’s say a thought suddenly comes “I don’t want to do dishes”. All it really is – a passing thought, it may be triggered by a sight of a sink full of dishes. That’s it! That’s all what happened. Just a thought. Where it came from? We really don’t know. It appeared and will soon go away. But our mind likes to label, so in this case a studen’t mind may label this thought about dishes as “lower self.” (Just in our example). Well, is it really a lower self, or is it just what it is – a thought about dishes? The same is with the concept of a Steward. A thought pops into our head. Mind labels it as work I and attributes to some imaginary guy Steward. We do something that makes us proud -let’s say clean our dish, (just to keep the dishes theme). Our mind thinks it’s the Steward and we feel slightly proud. No, it’s the dirty dish that just got washed with soap and water by these hands! Steward is in the mind, it’s a concept, he didn’t do anything, he is not real. There is no observable tangible “Selves” or “steward” or “9 Of Hearts” in reality, it’s all- just mental labels, imagination, mind activity. What really happened – a thought appeared in awareness. Came and went. Body acted on it or not. That’s it! No mind games are necessary to explain these simple things. Labeling and categorizing just makes it bulky, heavy, it’s so unnecessary! No wonder we “miss the present” with all this labeling and conceptualizing! Do you see what I am trying to say? Actual things are simple, mind explanations make them complicated. Truth is very simple, so simple – it is boring to the mind and it rejects it.
You confessed that you haven’t seen Higher Self. Well, neither did I. I suspect no one ever SAW it, and probably never will. For the same good reason -because it is just a mind label for something else. It’s not there, just like the lower self. These are just mind concepts, labels for some simple things, thoughts and feelings that will just pass if not hooked on to. These things have NOTHING to do with who you truly are.
Well, if we try to look what’s actually going on right now – you’ll see that there is just observing, and – what is observed (and labeled). What observes – is always there, it is you, your true nature. What is being observed – is passing, changing, disappearing and therefore cannot be your true nature. Look for permanent, for real. Just look, don’t label. Look like a kid would look, simply. Isn’t it strange that what we are is kind of…empty? Just this simple watching?
Mind loves dissecting, just like scissors. It dissects the whole and labels small parts. You are – what contains the mind and all it’s labels, all these “selves” , “stewards” etc. You are – what observes. Here and now. You’ll be able to see only if you look in a very ordinary way. Concepts are no good for this. You need to look in the Now for the truth, not in the mind.
“There is something in me that is threatened by these efforts”… – yes, it’s imaginary “you”! He is scared to death! Because once it is seen that there is no one there in the moment, just this calm emptiness, observing whatever is – it is the inevitable death of “me” and all his petty little agendas, fears and identifications. The real You comes forward, and shines. The little “you” crumbles.
(Sorry, words always sound so much like labels, they are so limiting. We must use words to express things, and talk to each other, but what We are is beyond words.Words are pointers to look at something. Just look, recognize, don’t get hang up on words or who says them)
There is a great Tony Parson’s phrase “I wish “you” die soon”.
May I lovingly wish you and all my friends precisely that?
malaec@yahoo.com
March 30, 2007 at 4:29 am
the origin of the concept of “feminine dominance”:
http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=8182244&dopt=Abstract
March 30, 2007 at 5:36 am
another member: Post #22.
Pot, aren’t you calling the Kettle black a bit when you write…
“The energy behind some of these postings is a bit out there- that’s the kind of energy I associate with someone who is prone to brain washing.”
But this is a fairly transparent attempt to pull down the discussion and distract us.
Wait, it’s working! What we were talking about again? Oh yes…
March 30, 2007 at 6:17 am
Thank you very much for your answers!
I also appreciate a lot the question posted by Fence Rider. It is my question too so beautifully asked.
Many intelligent observations from this blog shacked my believes, but the doubt and the habits are still very strong.
I am not an “admirer”, nor did I suffer any “injustice” in the FOF that I would need to heal from, but I am influenced by the opinion of others. If I was so sure about my own righteousness, I would not seek the guidance. But many years ago I came to realization that I do need the guidance of the higher intelligence, because my own did not bring me to anything constructive, beautiful, meaningful or conscious.
I am amazed to discover how many fears and ties are holding me: I hear the friends who see the School as a cult and friends who see the blog as a poison and it confuses me. But also it stimulate my own thinking and need to find out for myself what is true for me.
…But how can I trust ME? Me who is full of change, who can not feel the same every day, for whom the truth each day is different… Me is not a reliable adviser either!
I am so happy for those of you who were able to develop will or to verify things FOR SURE. In my case it is all very obscure. Even though I don’t believe the words of the Teacher about the esoteric keys and gathering the esoteric knowledge and do not wish to disobey the Will of the Gods – I want to make my little steps to the Truth and I don’t want to lose the opportunity to receive the “outside help”.
I don’t know how the Universe realizes itself, how the Gods help us to awaken or how many conscious beings there are in the Paradise. I want to know what to do now. Which choice do I have and how to use time well. There is no momentum in the Work – every step is against the stream…
March 30, 2007 at 7:36 am
Hi guys, the mood is right for some more reflection tonight… Thank you Fence Rider, Mole, David, One and All, A Friend in the FOF, Flying Free, For the Relativity and some other recent contributors, who have turned the conversation towards reflecting on the function of the school and the psychology involved in it. I enjoyed your contributions. Last night I had a dream that someone made a documentary about the Fellowship, interviews with members and former members and all, interspersed with impressions of daily life at Isis, background mood-setting music and the narrator taking turns. Discovery style, only more professional, with fewer superlatives, extreme emotions and dramatic statements. It ended by leaving you with no fixed conclusions.
I’m still trying to sort something out. I listened to an Adyashanti radio interview today. It went for about an hour and he basically talked freely, prompted with questions by the interviewer here and there. It became clear to me how so many people are naturally attracted to zen/advaita teachings when the fourth way comes to an end (or to a ceiling). It almost seems unavoidable. Much of what he said in this hour could be restated using fourth way terminology. And pretty much everything that he said was nothing new – I had heard it while still in the Fellowship, in conversations with students and even from RB himself. The thing with RB is that for every thing he says that strikes a chord in me, he also says 99 other things that are just his own story and his “taking enlightenment personally”. In one hour, Adyashanti expained things in such a straighforward way as might have taken me months of foraging around the FOF to gather the same understandings – and I probably would have accumulated some unwanted baggage in the process too. Because it seems that in the FOF, points of view that are in complete accord with non-dualistic sources, are mixed and in fact drowned in a lot of need for personal attainment, spiritual materialism, and mythology. So if you are already aligned with zen/advaita, you find just enough nourishment in the FOF to survive on, and continue for the occasional drops of light, making the best out of the situation, just as you were taught.
The amazing thing is to realize how formatory we can be: because all of it, the relatively more true and the relatively less true, comes more or less from the same source (FOF), we think we need to swallow it whole. We are often not even able to see a contradiction, not even seeing the different levels that different students and the teacher are coming from at different times. It is all “the school” with RB as “the decider”. And we (or at least I) have struggled this way to integrate my own understanding and that of a handful of other students I could share it with, with the tapes offered by RB as his teaching, trying to blend it all into a unified functional whole, rather than avoiding cognitive dissonance by simply following the will of the teacher and abandoning all other input. Now see where that brought me 🙂 I can no longer stay because they so rarely play my station.
March 30, 2007 at 7:45 am
Meet you down the blog #9
Loved it, beautiful, perfect!
“Better men have died for lesser causes”
I love you man or mam.
P.S. A shout out to the post a while back of the “Brothers in Arms”
March 30, 2007 at 8:15 am
with malice towards none #16
Christ said: Get thee behind me Satan, he didn’t try to push him off the cliff.
March 30, 2007 at 8:43 am
HERE IS A THOUGHT….
This is related to the topic of the FOF being the only school/path/way out there.
This is another idea that must be approached psychologically–not formatorily and overly literally–as most of the reactive thinking on this blog.
Try thinking about this in the sense of us drowing and needing help. (Mr. O wrote that schools are for those that need help, and know that they need help–both are required!)
As the joke goes, whether God comes in the form of a lifeboat, helicopter, etc. makes no difference–what matters is recognizing there is our help. Arguing with the color of the helicopter, or size of the boat makes no sense. Neither does blaming God after drowning…
To be so much in the moment that we know with all our being we need the exact help we are getting now–there is then no questioning that this is the only school, the only way out–presence– and of course this is the moment to moment–life or death– struggle we are really in, whether we realize it or not.
Hey sheik, you can put this in your preferred little cakes and eat it, because it is the truth!
Brought to you by
Sure Thing!
March 30, 2007 at 8:56 am
Question to “for the Relativity”–#25: John Wheeler pointing out that FOF members are very well prepared? Prepared for what? to now really really really really work on themselves?
Care to enlighten us prep-students?
Just Another Sure Thing!
March 30, 2007 at 9:40 am
To David, #4,
I probably should not have reduced the possibliities to an either/or situation, “graduating” or “dropping out”.
I do know that all analogies break down if carried too far; I can’t say whether your extended “academic” analogy was carried too far.
One situation about “transfering” is the question you posed yourself; where would one transfer to? My understanding and belief is that schools are rare, but I guess if one can go from a “group” to a “school”, one could also go from a “school” to a “group”.
I will say this much; the school (FOF) is not for everyone, not for every seeker.
As far as “independent study” goes, I guess that would also be possible if it augmented one’s main work rather than serve as a distraction. In a recent situation in the school, the story was circulated that Robert gave a few students the choice of staying or leaving as he apparently perceived their involvment in a
“b influence” group to be a distraction.
I will stand by my comments about the school being on a scale longer than a lifetime. I don’t think that “waking up” means you “graduate” from our school; it just means your responsibilities in the school broaden, the pressure to go further increases.
My own experience was that from the very beginning in the school I knew it was “for life” for me. I don’t remember ever formulating it; the realization was always there. My only concern was whether my lower self would do something foolish that would give Robert no other choice but to send me away; and I have to say “it” came close a few times to actualizing the concern.
March 30, 2007 at 12:31 pm
Dear FenceRider,
The FOF clearly faces many challenges as a community, and this blog sheds light on post-Fellowship life as a valid alternative. It’s a ripe time for reflection and taking measure of the Fellowship and Robert as a teacher. If you don’t know where to place yourself right now, you can just continue your process of discernment and trust yourself to know when you know. I don’t think there’s any other way!
Your post 5/2 referred to 2 other posts by current members and I have a different response to them that you might find useful because of the perspective. I hope so.
Dear MEMBER, re your post 4/294: I for one certainly don’t know who linked this blog to the FOF list, and my first reaction was similar to yours, that it was improper, deceptive and juvenile. I got the impression that you thought this blog was a collective design of former students because of the way you speak of “them”, but I believe word-of-mouth and internet links have brought us all together here! The result has largely been thoughtful and open dialog that wasn’t possible before.
You say that former members, for their own sake, should express themselves more privately in order to “go further internally in gaining insight…”, so I ask if you heard well enough the voices here who have done plenty of that. Do you really see in the posts of those who have left the Fellowship a focus on ‘how the FOF has deceived and lured them’? What is ironic is that this comment, no matter from where it sprang, seems mostly to be an attempt to diminish the intelligence, personal insight and compassion for others that are displayed in so many of these posts, and then you follow by saying there is nothing cultish about the FOF! Another irony is that so many who post here were once as sure of that as you are now.
We’ve most all shared profound common experiences and continue to be free to choose our own ways, either with or without Robert. For myself now it is not a diminishment to understand that “there is nothing new under the sun” (do you believe Robert’s school and the states you experience there are an exception?), so I am free now to choose good householder and use all that “is” in this life to expand my being and perceptions and become an integrated and human being. Do you consider that less worthy than your school aim? (Rhetorical question.)
Dear HOWARD CARTER, re your post 4/295: You stated that “Robert said there is no valid reason to leave a school , the key word being ‘valid’.” Many have discovered with abundant clarity that even though Robert said that, the meaning no longer held them in fear of taking the personal responsibility to respond to their own (valid) higher understanding. Almost everyone I know got what they came for, also, but then realized the exclusiveness limited rather than served their own aims of becoming. When someone leaves the school they become a non-entity of no value in the mind-set of the FOF world, but it’s different for those who leave. When I left that mind-set, I held my valuation for friends I left behind. I’m in contact with very few but welcome all because of genuine, unconditional fondness for them. I want to share my own hard-earned insights because I know from my own experience that one can become strangely lost to oneself within Robert’s school and discover very late that one’s own being – or becoming – has actually stalled. That’s the caution I wish to share, and also what I perceive in the persistent nature of some posts. That’s why I think we can agree to disagree but there is indeed a line drawn in the sand, maybe parallel, but currently with such different understandings that it’s impossible to meet. I’m one of many who think it’s a shame.
Thanks for sharing your views.
March 30, 2007 at 12:42 pm
Agent 007 (34): You are so right. I think that it may be a good idea to ignore voices like Cry Baby’s (aka Another Member, aka Sure Thing) until they add something meaningful to the discussion. Until then, it would simply be wasted energy and effort.
If The Shoe Fits (25): That is precisely why there is a moderator. While I could simply let people comment real-time, or transfer the discussion somewhere else, it wouldn’t survive for very long.
March 30, 2007 at 12:52 pm
Sheik, FYI, you are wrong as to the attribution of aka for me as Another Member and Cry Baby–thanks for the compliment though!
Sure Thing!
March 30, 2007 at 3:10 pm
Re: post #41
“My own experience was that from the very beginning in the school I knew it was “for life” for me. I don’t remember ever formulating it; the realization was always there.”
This is very interesting to me. When I joined in 1984, it was purely out of curiosity. I had read “In Search…” and “Man’s Possible…” and the Speath book: “The Gurdjieff Work”. I was also reading Alan Watts and J. Krisnamurti at the same time. In none of my readings did I get the impression that I would join a school and spend the rest of my life in it. I can’t recall how long I was in the fof before I realized Robert expected all of us to stay for life (at least those of us who were evolving). My understanding was that one came to a school to be in an artificial and controlled environment which would allow one to learn the techniques that would enable one to access higher states. After learning these techniques, one was to go back out into life and let your day-to-day experiences be your teacher. I believe Robert turned this concept on its head for his own reasons and not because any angel told him to. The line “A true student puts his life in the school and not the school in his life”, always struck me as false.
Funny though, another quote from Robert that does make a lot of sense to me is: “Feminine Dominance keeps the planets in orbit.”
Quite true, Bob. Fear will keep the world in order. I’m trying to not live under that law anymore. Consider me Pluto.
March 30, 2007 at 3:39 pm
re 32 No person “what do you REALLY see, with your eyes?”
Probably the same things you see. Many great people have said that a third eye is necessary to see anything more real than the stuff you are describing.
re 32 No person “You confessed that you haven’t seen Higher Self. Well, neither did I. I suspect no one ever SAW it, and probably never will.”
I disagree. All my work has brought me to the opposite conclusion.
re 38 Yesri Baba “Christ said: Get thee behind me Satan, he didn’t try to push him off the cliff.”
I agree. What might not be apparent in what Christ said is you have to keep reminding Satan. He does not listen. Here is another good quote:
Satan, when it calls you to lapse, and you resist it by rejecting what it proposes, goes on to whisper about another lapse. It considers all resistance the same. It wishes to call you continually to some lapse or other, and it has no investment in any particular lapse as opposed to any other. – Qushayri
And another:
Words! Words! Words! I’m so sick of words!
I get words all day through;
First from him, now from you!
Is that all you blighters can do?
Don’t talk of stars
burning above;
If you’re in love,
Show me!
– Eliza Doolittle
March 30, 2007 at 3:44 pm
Re: Traveler 5#36:
Re: ‘dream that someone made a documentary about the Fellowship’:
This is in progress with a tentative title:
‘Hand of God 2’
See ‘Hand of God’ Frontline PBS Independent Film info:
‘A moving, and frankly told story of a family’s confrontation with the church that betrayed them, and how they survived it all with their humanity and humor intact.’:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/pages/frontline/handofgod/
http://www.handofgodfilm.com/
This ‘Hand of God’ film is about sexual abuse in the American Catholic Church that is so revealing and similar to FOF story. Main difference is the scale, time frame and type of religious organization. After such an exposé, FOF will be very different place, if exists at all.
This could be called ‘independent study’ or ‘graduate school;’ leads to PhD.
Once, FOF/RB was more Zen-like in flavour and direct, but. obfuscation of the Truth was more prophetable. The further you go with FOF/RB, after a certain period of introduction and to a certain point in time (different for different people), the less ‘attainment’ you get; the law of diminishing returns applies. The aim becomes getting you stuck for life; a bit like Catholic Church’s ‘reward is in the afterlife’ in that regard. That is why FOF/RB has had to morph the ideology – to keep it going – even more effective than Catholic Church that has less possibility of change to form. Good example is continuous name change of property headquarters. A rose by any other name would smell as sweet. (Other metaphor could have been used but this was more poetic.)
Re: ‘Now [I] see where that brought me I can no longer stay because they so rarely play my station.’:
What’s your station? ‘Turn on, tune in, drop out.’
Wouldn’t You Like To Know
March 30, 2007 at 4:05 pm
Great posts today. Thank you, Confused for the openness with which you described your need for a supportive structure. I have been there most of my life and maybe will be there again (can’t take anything for granted). For now the only thing which rooted me and gave me balance is the realization that consciousness is something I was born with and it is always here, only the mind confuses me and creates the need to find some other ‘self’: higher, lower, ‘higher centres’, to control my actions etc.
5 obstacles to consciousness which you mentioned in the previous post are obstacles to realization that you are conscious, not to your consciousness which is always available to experience, only the mind makes it look difficult. When you realize that you are always ‘conscious’, you see the ‘simplicity’ of it, although you don’t ‘understand’ it and you start leaving at peace with yourself and others, because you see the same in others too, however confused they might be. Then you ‘functions’ take care of themselves as always, and your mind too, but underneath you are free and peaceful, ‘whatever the weather’.
Dear Traveler, thank you for your post. I found Adyashanti and Advaita guys very helpful in my ‘deprograming’. I see now that after that job is done, the point they make is that you’re now free to live and function perfectly by yourself, not to follow them or anyone else around. Having said that, I still enjoy their writings, as well as inspirational words from many more sources.
Alexis, well done for not believing. This is what we were supposed to learn in the school (verify), but usually find after leaving: not believing anybody but ourselves, even if we prove ourselves wrong later on!
March 30, 2007 at 4:51 pm
Your playing a dangerous game Sheik when you suggest ignoring voices of peole who wish to contirbute. You are not the objective truth by any means. My opinion is not Cry Baby or sure thing. And it is not nonsense that my first contribution was axed, it was.
One more thing- it is true that students were sent an anonymous link to the site and false e-mails by students and also I was anonymously sent an Adyashanti CD with questions to him by ex students- just for the record.
March 30, 2007 at 5:42 pm
For the relativity: 5/17.
Thank you for your very insightful posting. It was a beautiful formulation of many ideas felt here, but not formulated.
This passage really spoke to me. “You just keep being, doing what is what really apparent to do, the very next step, allowing the Truth to manifest itself, relaxing your body for the service may come through you freely. One can offer ones understanding to those who ask, but one can not draw apples closer to the ground. Allow other people to have their own experience, because their case – is again, how the Universe wants to come to the realization of itself in its unique way.”
Traveler: 5/36.
I was touched by this and your earlier postings. Thank you for bringing your insight to this blog.
March 30, 2007 at 5:56 pm
From Wikipedia: The Sequence was an all female band most notably known for their hit single Funk You Up, and later for Keep Their Heads Ringin. One of the lead singers later become a member of Vertical Hold.
Is this a cosmic joke? If not, it’s a lighter touch for a sometimes heavy hand.
March 30, 2007 at 6:10 pm
“What those people are going to do with their insights, their light, is the question?”
There is nothing to do, because the very insight shows that there is no one to do, no one in charge… All there truly is – Consciousness watching through eyes. And things are just done. Life simply goes on, -enjoy it, watch, live. It will be all done just the way it needs to be done, at the perfect time, just like it was done up to this point.
Do we ask trees or animals “what are they going to do with their lives”? Of course not. It’s funny. They just live, endure, and experience whatever comes their way in the present, they have no imagination about “future”, it’s all about the now for them. (At least it looks like it). Humans think they are in charge and think about the future ALL THE TIME. . But are we in charge, really? And is there such thing as future, or is it just a mind idea?
There is a real joy in sharing the insights. It is the best thing to share, to offer, really. It appears that this blog serves as a vehicle for sharing some insights at this time. I am not concerned with “Why” or the “dust”. If it’s expressed – it needs to be expressed, some people share some don’t, there is no one particular uniform way to act or behave. There is no “teaching” your true nature. It is there, it is you. Words of a friend who may have seen are pointing to it in you, and you can see and recognize Consciousness in yourself, as yourself. No one will ever “teach” you this, or “give” you this, because each has to look for himself and finally recognize Consciousness in himself. It is possible, because this is who we alltruly are, right now.
I sincerely wish you good luck.
March 30, 2007 at 6:17 pm
And the student asked: Master, what is fate?
After a period of silence the Master replied:
It is that which the camel carries on its back across the desert.
It is that which launches the thousand ships to sea.
It is that which man seeks in the tumultuous market place.
And the student said: So this, Master, is fate?
And the Master said: Fate? I thought you said freight.
March 30, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Mole (#8) What were the religions originally if not schools? Subjected to contamination and diluted with time?
Traveler (#36), make the video/film – it would be great, and could offset some of the teaching payments you made over the years. I am sure Channel 4 would be up for an undercover programme! (A different version of Rogue Traders…Rogue Religions?)
Confused (#35), try going WITH the stream, rather than against it, and take some of ‘No Person’s’ advice, getting caught up with the I’s can do your head in!
No Person (#32), fascinating and almost completely convincing, but then you end with saying about “imaginary you” and “real you” (although you do give yourself a get-out clause by saying words complicate things). I would suggest that there are different “you’s”, made up of groups of attitudes and that they come to the fore at different times. A ‘life’ psychology idea that is popular, makes a lot of sense and can be very effective when making choices about how to react in a situation (which is something we have the will to do), is the concept that we have a child, parent and adult within us. (Eric Berne, Transactional Analysis) The main thrust is that we observe these different parts of us, and where possible act from the adult which has qualities of assertiveness, scale and relativity, justice, integrity, honesty etc. Child wants to be taken care of, parent wants to take over, not that there are no good qualities to child and parent, e.g. ‘playing’ is a desirable behaviour. Some might say this is therapy which is different from awakening, but in my opinion it is another model to use to categorize as you watch, and a framework to help make decisions. No person, you will say this is the mind again, but the mind is there and does not go away, so why not bring some order to it? Your advice is all very well, but there must be some areas where you have a dilemma, have a variety of thoughts in relation to it and need to choose which one to go with. Your washing the dishes for example, if they are someone elses dishes, parent may be evoked… “trust them to leave their dishes for me, they treat the place like a hotel…” or child “Not my dishes, I don’t WANT to wash the dishes, I want to watch TV” or adult “I will wash their dishes this time, as I need to use them, but will let them know I am not prepared to do it again”. I would be very interested to hear your thoughts on this.
I just thought of an addition to this model…parent, child, adult and ‘FOF student’ who would say “that person is in tramp, I will do some voluntary sufferring and wash their dishes, but be sure to give them a photograph next time I see them!” (which is actually passive-aggressive, parent/child attitudes!)
March 30, 2007 at 6:35 pm
To Another Member post 49….And receiving the Adyashanti CD hurt you how?
Getting an email with a link to this blog under a false name also hurt you how?
I’ll tell you what hurts…when people who once called you friend and greeted you with smiles and hugs now look at you with a blank stare, mumble a quick “hi”, (nevermind “how are you?”) and tensly walk past you. Hense the label “brainwashed”.
Some of us “ex-students” are trying very hard not to judge the current members for their belief system and just live our new found freedom. Then an incident like I mentioned happens and something inside screams ” what is WRONG with you people?!!!”
Not meaning to be sarcastic just frustrated with the level of mind control that so many truly wonderful people in the fellowship have chosen to accept.
In friendship,
My Self
March 30, 2007 at 6:44 pm
p.s. for more on the transacitonal analysis/parent, adult, child model see:
http://www.businessballs.com/transact.htm
March 30, 2007 at 7:05 pm
Thank you, No person, your description of the mind influenced by ideas and words is very precise.
Most of my life I was obsessed by the idea of ‘awakening’. I knew that I wasn’t going to wake up because in my mind I never was good enough for it, my ‘level of being’ was never ‘high enough’, my efforts were never sufficient enough and my states would always go away. Me my mine – endlessly.
When I was reminded of my Indian trip today, I remembered how I went there with complete determination to awaken – whatever the cost. I had highest states of my life, deepest insights into Universe and Gods who populate it and much more. For a few days I was sure that I had finally woken up. But as a result of getting so high, I plummeted into a major breakdown and avoided madness by the skin of my teeth, with the help of those closest to me. That experience brought me to understand that the mind easily gets lost in complex, ‘spiritual’, ‘mystical’ jungles, trying to understand the un-understandable: the phenomena of its own being. Reward for dropping down the ideas and ‘simple’ living (although there’s nothing ‘simple’ about it) is in that one can become free and happy for no apparent reason, just because one IS.
March 30, 2007 at 7:12 pm
Tutankhamun 4/#293: “During the discussion people are trying to look and review the relationship which they have with them self,with the school and with Robert.This blog serves as microscope thru which you can clearly see the truth about all those matters.And what Be Careful is trying to do is to disfocus this microscope. Be careful is trying to bring down the dept and the scale of that discussion to the level of ordinary arguments,squabble,political intrigues and blackmail.”
Yes, a classic form of obfuscation. This also applies to #18 above; the post contains many dysphemisms such as “mudfest”, “cyber activities”, and “tactics” as substitutes for “meaningful discourse” and “thought provactive commentary” – while completely ignoring the substantive commentary found throughout the blog, and avoiding any direct response to it. Not sure why there’s any sort of opposition to open discourse… but worth taking another look at Tut’s post for an explanation (4/#293).
Of course if the blog DOES turn into a “mudfest”, there’s always the Back button and the up-and-down scroll bar on your favorite browser.
March 30, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Dear,
# 15 No Accounts : Beautifully written. I guess that covers the “30”. I never understood why it was called the Fellowship of Friends. Along with all the name changes it morphed into over the years it should also have had the names change into the Fellowship of Funds!(at least for the last 4-5 years).
#36 Traveller. Right on. You got it! Nicely put. Stay with it.
#35 Confused:
Your sincerity is very sweet. Nicely expressed.
Read and re-read #36 Traveller. You are currently going through the process of coming to your own truth. Stay with it and do not look to someone (especially RB) to give you the answers. Someone outside yourself (your own TRUE NATURE) is “NOT ENLIGHTENED”.
You are looking for answers in all the wrong places. The answers are not in your mind. That is why you will find that ‘me’ keeps shifting. So does my ‘me’ . I don’t trust the ‘me’ either. The ‘I’s’ are multitude and they should not be believed. The mind constantly shifts.
Spend some time with yourself and ask yourself a few questions (try to drop the I’s that come floating through your head- this is mind activity). Who am I? What is real? Who are you without your story? Who is ‘me’? Show me where ‘me resides’?
There are some wonderful people right in your own back yard- a stones throw away. Go listen to them, ask them some questions. You will be amazed at the answers that take you to your own true nature, your own SELF, your natural state, your awakeness, your presence, your own enlightement (whatever you wish to call it- it goes by many names in many different cultures).
There are so many things that I can say to you, but it could take pages to express what I got in a 1 hour meeting with Adyashanti and John Wheeler. I can only direct you to #202/4 who is not interested in the “he said/then I said stuff” which is all entertaining but perpetuates the ‘wheel of samsara” – ‘the wheel of confusion’ that keeps all of us humans trapped in our heads.
Good luck my friend – stay with it.
A thought from Nasargadatta:
” There is no progress in spirituality. You have to dissolve progress”.
I would include one other in the following list which is a good initial ‘door opener’.
http://www.adyashanti.org
You can download clips from his teaching directly on line for free. Gives meetings in the Bay area regularily.
Copied from #202/4
http://www.ods.nl/am1gos/
Amigo Magazine, an online publication with interviews and articles on Advaita. Downloadable for free, even past editions.
http://www.francislucille.com
Website dedicated to Francis Lucille, a pupil of Jean Klein. He lives in Temecula, Southern California.
http://www.advaita.org
Website of Wayne Liquorman, he gives talks every week that you can access via the web, and ask questions live. Videos and talk excerpts on his website.
http://www.theopensecret.com
Website dedicated Tony Parsons, british iconoclast. Videos and talk excerpts on his website.
http://members.iinet.net.au/~adamson7
Website dedicated to Sailor Bob Adamson, disciple of Nisargadatta Maharaj. Videos and talk excerpts on his website.
http://www.thenaturalstate.org
Website dedicated to John Wheeler, disciple of Sailor Bob.
There are, of course, hundreds of websites out there dedicated to Advaita (as teached here in the West), and some important teachers like Jean Kein, Nisargadatta Maharaj or Ramana Maharshi, being dead, don’t have a web prescence except through their disciples.
All these teachers were (and are) very simple people, with a strong commitment to awakening, and generally open to answer any questions posed (that was and remains the principal teaching method of all eastern traditions, including buddhism).
If any of you have some questions related to Non-Dual thinking or Advaita, feel free to ask or email me, through this blog, or via my email address (we will do it in the most strict anonymity, both sides):
advaitanondual@gmail.com
I’m not interested in money, scandals, or other people’s lives, only Understanding of what is ultimately Real…
Thanks,
Nondual
March 30, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Dear All:
This is a continuation of my post #4, and Howard Carter’s post #41.
For those who have not been a member of the Fellowship, one of the common responses over the years to people who said they were thinking of leaving the School was “where would you go?”, implying that there is nowhere else one could evolve or practice conscious work, or whatever. I believe this originally came from Robert, and it was commonly repeated, by myself as much as anyone. I bring this up because I think it constitutes a background to Howard’s comment on my (rhetorical) question “where would one transfer to?” , where he notes that it is his understanding and belief that schools are rare, and that if one could go from a ‘group’ to a ‘school’ one could also go from a ‘school’ to a ‘group’.
I would like to emphasize that I apply what follows only to myself, and it is not intended to be any kind of judgement of anyone else.
Part of my experiences over the past year or two have included asking myself about my understandings and my beliefs, and whether there are now, for me, still valid, for lack of a better word. So among the beliefs I found myself questioning were many of the very comments HC made in his post: Is the Fellowship the only School I have access to? Is Robert the only Teacher I have access to? A corollary to that is do I indeed have access to RB as a teacher? Is the concept of there being many lifetimes true or useful (admittedly a very big question!)? Is it useful for me to view my work, or journey to awakening, or whatever I may call it, as something that will take many lifetimes? Does ‘waking up’ also entail, as you say, that I do not ‘graduate’ from a School, but rather remain and undertake ever broader responsibilities, etc.?
When I was honest with myself, I found a number of things: That most of these questions were unanswerable; that I had long assumed they were answerable; that I had the answers (or that Robert did, and I used them as my own); and finally and most importantly that the questions themselves were mostly no longer relevant to me.
The result has been that I find myself very much ‘stripped down’ to essentials. I have found interesting results from simply trying to see what is before me, both within and without the School. Among my conclusions so far are that there is a great deal of consciousness, conscious work, evolution, and teaching on the planet. One ingredient in this stew is the FoF and RB. As ingredients alone they are delicious (so to speak), while the stew is greater than the sum of its parts.
March 30, 2007 at 7:54 pm
“You confessed that you haven’t seen Higher Self. Well, neither did I. I suspect no one ever SAW it,”
Friend this is nonsense: there is no ‘one’ but the Higher Self. If for ‘one’ is intended one of the many ‘I’s then No Way. this is all talking in sleep.
March 30, 2007 at 8:57 pm
“Things as they are and me as I am” From any of the Non Dualist voices? No! Rodney Collin !
The same then ?
Yes and No!
Yes, because of the same or very similar contents.
No, because of a different form.
Every single word heard within the FOF or let’s say each experience in the FOF, means you support the “form”, sequence, gold and sex aspects included.
I feel this is the reason why the Non Dualistic speakers are so attractive for FOF members as well as former FOF members.
The same understandable message, but delivered in a “cleaner” form …
Further thought: some Student have difficulty connecting with the new teching. The resolution is still to come. For now there are the Ah, Ah! Hi! Hi! A cave man making love “is” the sequence. The laughing can’t be repressed and invades the meeting hall…
Robert, if he knows he is speaking the truth, surely feels betrayled…
The students, may continue laughing but continue paying their Teaching payments, reducing Robert to a laughter and the School to a Club…
I will end up in hell (Moon)…
Ok, fine, most of my friends are there!
I am one of those still processing the question ( the stay/leave thing)
so, if there is any sarcasm tone here, it can be due to the fact that I am trying to test my own “play”.
All the best. Fondly.
March 30, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Hey, Sure Thing!
What if someone told you that you aren’t really drowning and that if you just stopped thrashing around and kicking, and let yourself relax, your feet would touch the bottom that was there all along to support you.
But I really think you LOVE the struggle, the “moment to moment-life or death- struggle we are really in, whether YOU realize it or not.” If that is YOUR truth, hey, knock yourself out! And let the rest of us have fun in the pool and enjoy ourselves!
March 30, 2007 at 9:48 pm
Yesri Baba, Post 299, Page 4:
“Mystery. I just wanted to make sure this word made it onto the blog at least once.”
——-
arthur, Post 24, Page 4, quoting from Collin:
“They [Gurdjieff and Ouspensky] were partners and complements, chosen because they represented and could transmit opposite aspects of the same truth. Two poles have to be separated for electric current to jump between them and light.”
——-
Thanks, Yesri Baba and Arthur.
Sometimes what’s missing is the word “mystery.” We have it figured it out. We know. We use the words “knowledge” and “understanding” quite a bit. It’s natural. We have to. It keeps our feet on the ground. Obviously, we know something, all of us here, or at least we believe we know something. But in our quest for knowledge sometimes what falls by the wayside is a sense of mystery.
How did all of us arrive here together, and not a different set of people? Why did we read the books while others didn’t? Why did we decide to join? And why do others decide not to join, or to leave, while others remain? Some of us are sure what it means. Some of us are sure what it doesn’t mean. Some of us think we don’t know exactly what it means or doesn’t mean — and wonder at it, and watch, and wait.
We find ourselves here, for some unknown reason, or perhaps no reason at all for all we know. A body of people arrives, a leader invites. Why then? Why that set of people? What next? For what unknown purposes?
And now we’re here… Why now? Why this? And what next? And for what unknown purposes?
A sense of mystery.
March 30, 2007 at 9:58 pm
Dear Fence Rider and For the Relativity, exlax 101 and friends on the block,
Thank you for your interesting reflections. You ask what the Fellowship is and what it is not and I would like to explore that idea together.
Is the Fellowship a place where families are stimulated to grow or where it is alright to abandon “biological” children so that if you don’t allow yourself to be educated by your children and the situation with them becomes too conflicting you close the doors and let them go because after all, they are just an accident in your life?
Does the crisis in The Lewis Carroll School reflect the contradictions between a club in which people tried to achieve consciousness caring only about their little presence and not dealing with actual human perspectives and practical solutions to problems within a family and a community, in other words, objective and practical understandings of who we are as an individual and who we are as human beings?
Granted that we have each gained much development as individuals who were forced, stimulated and confronted with the fact that they had to make a living to pay for their teaching payments, is that all we want to make a living for? Or do we not only want to make a living but make a life in a community with objective human values?
Is Self Remembering an individual effort that can lead to states, full stop and do we not need to move into external consideration to understand how to use the understandings that we developed through self remembering?
How can we practically move towards developing in a community the understanding of the Whole or Unity that we came to, with the practice of self remembering?
In the fourth way, The Way of Life, does awakening limit itself to the individual? Or does it include the actual practice of life?
In positions carried to the extreme by Mr. Haven in his books and discourse, which support the idea that consciousness is not functions, therefore life is not consciousness, do we not fall into the trap that we cannot live a conscious life?
And what is consciousness but a conscious life in which we assume responsibility for ourselves and others? Or is consciousness simply assuming responsibility for one’s self?
Can we agree with the fact that Robert Burton’s School is a considerable success in as much as it has developed people conscious enough to understand that no one has to take care of their personal necessities, through the practice of Presence?
Can we agree on the fact that Robert Burton’s School is a failure in as much as it has not developed people with objective human values but a club in which Robert’s subjectivity conditions what people are to act on, live by? Particularly the music he likes, the dance he likes, the way he likes students to interact with each other?
In conditioning student’s interactions with each other, is Robert not stimulating a structure conducive to idolatry in which students no longer relate to each other but have to limit themselves to “obeying, loving, serving, paying, supporting,” the “father, authority, priest, state” of Robert Burton, reproducing the same pattern inherent in patriarchal societies, which develop a hierarchichal organization conditioned by the privileges of a few, fewer and fewer as you go down the ladder of subjective sympathies?
Is the fact that Mr. Burton hasn’t been able to develop a System of his own and has had to abandon the System of Mr. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and has had to use fragments of other systems and Schools to support his one and only idea: “Remember yourself always and everywhere”, not revealing the trap in which he himself fell by not being able to move beyond his own self, in the actual development of his School, therefore developing not a community with objective human values that could extend out to life, but a “club”, a “monarchy” a “brothel” or a “School” perfect for egoistic people who would wish to develop nothing but themselves?
Is that consciousness?
Does that mean that we might as well throw him out or throw ourselves out with the horrifying failure? Or can we acknowledge the partial successes?
Can we transform the failures, limit the tendency to idolatry and develop a community with objective human values in which we all participate, including Robert, no matter how difficult that sounds?
To those that think it impossible to change, can they observe how they have at least in this one area, totally crystallized?
If working on oneself as an individual and reorganizing the societies we live in is not CHANGE, what is evolution?
Thank you for your patience to listen in this wonderful and noisy symposium.
March 30, 2007 at 10:24 pm
An open letter to Abraham: Thank you for helping me make a decision. It is not for the years of Fellowship nastiness that you have helped to cover up, or for the arrogant flouting of the laws requiring building permits and reasonable taxation. Nor is it for the abandoned children and heartbroken families resulting from Fellowship rejection of “life.”
It is for your appalling hypocrisy–after the threats and paranoia and ranting and saber rattling–in trying to assume the role of a reasonable, open-minded, nice sincere guy. This transparent and fraudulent pose makes me feel physically ill. I will do anything I can do to be sure that the information on this blog reaches any interested agencies, newspapers, and the immigration authorities. Again, thanks for making the decision for me.
March 30, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Here’s an interesting twist. Dobson from Focus on Family was accurately quoted by the media about his judgement that Fred Thompson wasn’t a Christian. FOF (theirs) said what is being said out there is not to be believed.
So… their quote to their followers is the following:
“This latest incident adds a disturbing twist: FOF devotees are advised to quit believing anything they read about the organization in the general media. If you have questions, call FOF. In other words, stop thinking for yourself and just let FOF tell you how it’s going to be.”
March 30, 2007 at 10:34 pm
An Italian writer (Curzio Malaparte)wrote a book titled “Escape in prison”.
Gurdjieff, do you like this one ?
We might, at some point and for a period of time, find the escape “in” the prison.
No suprise we clean, polish the bars and insult whoever brakes the door or even leaves it open.
Whoever had captive birds know quite well that when they get “free” (the cage was left open for example) they struggle hard to find the way back and the bars, met from the outside, are the “obstacle”!
Someone in this blog asked a while ago
“Is your compass broken ?”
What a nice question!
I still remember it vividly.
Do not inflict freedom to the one loving its slavery!
This is a generous, loving and compassionate approach if you are a lover of thruth.
Things happen naturally.
Apple do fall from the tree but only when it is time for them to fall.
Similarly, we go from mother milk to solid food and, from a dominant teacher to a teacher and,
from a guide to no teacher…
I let you continue with whatever metaphore you may find meaningful for yourself.
Much gratitude and good luck.
March 30, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Dear Friend Across the River,
Your ask me to expand on the idea that:
“there are laws that we’ve never even attempted to understand, that end up restricting us all when we start to damage each other.”
I’ll do my best, some way.
From one angle this whole blog is the result of the fact the no matter how successful the Fellowship of Friends is in many aspects, it has also created, not only a considerable amount of unnecessary suffering but a great deal of suffering. This blog is what the Fellowship’s “being” is attracting to itself and we can buffer it or transform it, individually or as a community. Are you “doing” it? Am I? Or did forces that we cannot see make us come to this crossroad that we’re in need to deal with? Those are the laws that I’m talking about in the sentence you mention.
If you allow me to really expand, could we explore the other side of the sphere and ask ourselves what laws could we be under when we don’t damage each other? If damaging each other means neglecting each other justified by the presence of another person to whom we acknowledge consciousness, what could it mean to stop neglecting each other and interacting?
Is the Teacher teaching to “drink”, so that one can clench one’s thirst only? Or could one/we actually attempt to consider the reality of Water? Wine? The juice of Fruits? They’re all just derivatives of Water. Have you ever drunk a glass of water and considered the being that dwells in it? Or do you just drink to clench your thirst?
Is the Teacher teaching to “taste” so that one can indulge in one’s own deep pleasure? Or, could one/we actually attempt to taste the variations of flavor that the Earth has given us?
The infinite resourcefulness with which it provides human beings anywhere, its different possibilities?
Is the Teacher teaching to “move” so that we push others out of our way? Or, could one/we move in such a way that we’re consistently allowing and embracing each other?
Is the Teacher teaching to “talk”, so that we fall into a deep monologue such as he and Mr. Haven have fallen into, or could one/we actually attempt to communicate?
Is the Teacher teaching to “Feel”, so that we buffer the suffering, both necessary and unnecessary, inside and outside the Fellowship? Or, could we actually attempt to look at it with wide open eyes and transform it, “Turn” it?
I could go on and on but what is the point of going on and “on my own”, if the “Aim” is the possibility of developing it together? Together with Robert, Mr. Haven, students and the rest of us who left and will continue to come?
The history of organic life shows us that organisms separate, the history of humanity shows us, that communities simply CHANGE, what are we? A School in a descending octave or a Community willing to assume responsibility for it’s process of awakening?
We will answer that, in “Time”.
March 30, 2007 at 10:59 pm
To Yesri Baba, #24.
I’ve noticed that many of your postings are not developed themes of your own but responses, often in the form of short “zingers” or “barbs”, directed towards the comments of other authors who you disagree with in whole or in part. I also feel you are very insightful and intelligent, which you know without me saying it.
I would surmise that if you were in the school when the “wit” exercise gained momentum and status you would have struggled with it.
Wit is an interesting negative emotion. (I would classify it as such because it often seems innocuous but is usually expressed at the expense of another’s feelings and often contains judgment, which itself is a prominent form of negativity). Of course, the real problem with any negative emotion is that it displaces presence. The two don’t mix. Like oil and water, if you put the two in a container each will retain its own distinct properties and occupy different areas of the container. So, one has to pick one over the other. If one chooses the negative emotion one can’t be present, and if one chooses presence one cannot express the negativity. Its that simple.
Two of the recently departed from the school also had wit as a key element of their psychology; one in a classically overt form, the other more passive in nature. I would guess that they, too, struggled mightily with the exercise, and probably breathed a sigh of relief when leaving because they could then get back to being “themselves”.
I’ll tell you an interesting story: I wrote a completely different response to you; one quite witty in fact, about my monkey. It was meant to “get on your good side” as I felt it would be good to have someone as insightful as you as an ally on this blog. I then hit the submit button and the page froze. I became somewhat agitated that I could not send the response I was quite pleased with and that I might even my lose it in cyber space. I got up from the computer and did a small chore, came back to the frozen page, refreshed it, deleted the response and composed the one you are now reading. Was the frozen page an “accident”, or by “chance”?. All I will say is that in the interim I saw a different approach; one that is more in keeping with my present understandings.
March 30, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Here is another question to consider.
What is the difference between the FOF and any one of the number of Islamic extremest groups that are causing such commotion these days ?
Before you dismiss this idea as preposterous consider this; The ideaology of the FOF hinges on contact and guidence from ‘The Gods’ or ‘C’ influence. The FOF is the ONLY way of salvation.If you do not make it this life time to Paradise ‘Where there are many more colours than we humans are capable of percieving,the most fabulous architecture and you only have to visulise something and it is created’, then you will be put in ‘limbo’ til the Gods take your soul out of storage again and give you another ‘Role’ on earth…Robert Burtons words.
The rest of humanity, ‘The sleeping billions’ are doomed to be sent to the moon and as such don’t count. ‘What life wants is unimportant etc etc. Robert Burton
Now the Islamic version.The only word is the word of Mohammed.Those who do not follow the teachings as layed out in the Koran are heretics.Those who insult the Koran should be killed.Those who do this ‘Holy work’ will be rewarded in Paradise where amongst other things is an endless supply of virgins.And so on.
Note any similarity between these two mind sets ?
It goes without saying that the adherents of both groups consider themselves right.
March 30, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Dearest, Dearest NO ACCOUNTS (5/15),
Your moving words are a pointed and painful reminder of my own complicity by staying so long.
Blessedly released from the need to be special,
ACROSS THE RIVER
March 31, 2007 at 12:29 am
with malice towards none #46
What Christ knew is that you cannot kill the habit of creation and it is futile to fight the habitual nature of creation. You ask it to step behind you relegating it to its proper place.
March 31, 2007 at 12:46 am
Sure Thing #39
No it is not the truth. You are wrong and this blog is a lifeboat sent for you.
March 31, 2007 at 1:53 am
Confused (35)
The question of what to do now doesn’t arise when concern about results is abandoned. The Gita calls it “renouncing the fruit of the action.” Of course, this goes against the “work for reward” mentality that so many people are indoctrinated with in the FOF and elsewhere. When the reward is constantly out there as a carrot to be attained, actual BEING is forgotten. So I say: forget about trying to build up momentum, create a soul, fight against the stream, etc. That stuff is fear and time based (past regrets and future worries). Just BE and don’t worry about whether in the next moment you will forget to BE, or whether you forgot to BE in the last moment. BE for the sake of BEing, not for what you will get out of it in the future. The minute you want to get something that you do not have (or think you do not have) you are lost. If all “efforts” are undertaken in this spirit a great weight is lifted. No longer do you have to struggle and toil and worry about whether you are going to “make it.” Confusion vanishes, replaced by simple Presence.
Mark H.
FOF student 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
March 31, 2007 at 5:34 am
To Abigail (#66) and Mole (#71)–I find your writings to be quite extreme and bordering on being fanatical.
Dear Abigail, Is not every person entitled to seek out legal help? Why would that not include the FOF? Are you one of those people blaming OJ Simpson;s lawyers for getting him off? Why so much judgment? As a previous post has said, what do you believe should be done?
Dear Mole, Is not the FOF focusing on itself and not advocating killing others? Are you considering that there is really a valid analogy here?
Your positions are a little too far over the top for my taste. Good luck
March 31, 2007 at 5:55 am
Dear Alexis (#30)
Hope this understanding will help you. It made a very positive impact on me when I heard it as it brought light on the many questions and contradictions I had been holding over the past four years:
“We give up everything we have in order to wake up, but we don’t give up the only thing that really matters, the spiritual belief.”
This was said by Adhyashanti in one of his talks.
In or out of the FOF, or any other school, religion or group we get attached to countless concepts. That seems to be the way. Do we have a choice? I don’t think so. They are there because of the many things we cannot verify and also because some of them represent hope, and hope is nothing but positive imagination about the future. Only when we start asking ourselves the right question, Who am I?, or What am I?, only then we’ll have the possibility of realizing our True Nature, and then there is no more need for spiritual belief, we’ll start walking on our own feet.
It’s a very good start that you don’t believe what other people have to say about awakening (Rita, Charles?) Why should you?
Now, why not to have a look at the endless list of concepts you are carrying with you? Did you ever question any of them? What happened then? Can you see how easily any concept can become a belief? Concept-thought-belief, isn’t it the same?
Bye for now!
March 31, 2007 at 6:17 am
Lust for life, thanks for your question, you asked: but the mind is there and does not go away, so why not bring some order to it?
Well, WHO exactly will be putting mind in order? This is the whole point, you see. We habitually believe that there is some personal entity that does stuff, we call him “me”. But who is he? Where is he? Can he be observed, seen? What is he consists of? Nothing, really. “Entity”, composed of stories and thoughts. But there is clearly some observing or looking going on in any given moment, or some kind of registering, right? And all kinds of thoughts passing by, objects are observed. But no solid “me”, no central person in charge to be found. Can you see this?
The mind is fine, there is no problem with the mind. What do we call mind -is physical brain and thoughts. It’s not going to go away or be completely quiet forever, it doesn’t seem to be the deal. It’s a great tool/organ for thinking, for exploration, it is just not WHO we are. Why worry about order of the mind? Who is going to put it in order anyway. Try to find out who/what you truly are instead, it’s much more rewarding.
So when there are dishes, or whatever – thoughts arise, any kinds related or unrelated thoughts. Some thought asks a question, other thought seems to answer it, based on whatever memory or knowledge. Body acts one way or the other, it moves, very intelligently in fact, mostly independent of thoughts. It looks like choices are being made, but if you look closely – it’s just one thought, and then – next, often an opposite one. One thought says “Do this”, and next one – “No, do that”. The body reacts or doesn’t, and there is an illusion of choice making, when all there are – two contradicting thoughts, like one cancelling another. None of the thoughts were “chosen”, they just arise spontaneously. If you are in charge of thoughts – why would you choose rotten ones that are so unpleasant and torture you? No, there is no control over thoughts, no personal chooser inside, no “me”. It’s just an illusion. Thoughts arise and seeming choices are made, with no chooser inside. Mystery, isn’t it?
And something just watches it all and is not very concerned. At this time for me there is not much deep personal investment in thoughts or outcome of them. Thoughts just come, some are expressed, some don’t. No deep regrets or agonizing questions. Lengthy mental dilemmas seem to subside, but there are small immediate questions of the moment, they resolve quickly, and mind doesn’t stick on them. It’s more like responding to the need of the moment, appropriately, without much mental analysis, and then forgetting all about it. But – effortlessly, not forced “doing” or “trying”. The idea of personal control is kind of given up. In general, life became less “mental”, but more immediate, engaged. Exciting stuff happens every moment, so it’s kind of more fun to watch and experience and enjoy, rather than get hang up in the mind for hours trying to resolve something.
Please feel free to write me personally if you wish.
malaec@yahoo.com
March 31, 2007 at 7:42 am
To Mole #71,
Here’s a difference: Islamic extremest group members blow themselves up in crowded market places along with all the toddlers and elderly people who happen to be shopping or tagging along that day.
Fellowship members plant palm trees and release ballons or white doves into the sky before their ballet performances.
March 31, 2007 at 8:17 am
I have to admit, I’m a little addicted to this blog (I suspect I’m not alone)… It is bringing up so much deep, interesting stuff. One unexpected result: I’m valuing my friends “in life” more than ever for their individual truths, for their commitment to working on themselves never having studied G or O or A or RB. My artist friend tells me he is learning to stand up for his imagination and unfold his creative powers as an artist– his life purpose; my dancer friend taught a class tonight about boundaries –inviting us to play with embodying both the “yes” and the ”no” that goes into forming balanced, joyful lives. How “wrong-headed” some of these words might sound to those deeply imbedded in the language of the FOF. But how beautifully my friends spoke them and how inspiring it is to feel them walking their own heart-path….
Looking for Answers (65) raised so many profound questions. The crux of many of them seems to stem from this idea that “consciousness is not functions.” Even the Advaita talk reeks a bit of this dangerous life-sucking concept to me. Sure, animals and flowers don’t get caught up in questioning who they are—but human beings have the capacity to be, think/feel AND to act. It is no small thing to perceive the I AM but unless you’re content to exist in some cave somewhere (or mansion, as the case may be), you’ve got to get the I ACT part down too. That’s what so attracted many of us to the Fourth Way, right?—it was to be practiced “in life,” without having to join a monastery or wear all orange or stand on your head for hours on end. But I found in the FOF that I got very little help in learning how to live my life in alignment with spiritual understandings. I wanted to integrate the questions and the states with the choices and the responsibilities to myself, and to others. No such luck! Maybe that’s why post 65 and No Accounts sound such a distinctive note. With all this talk of presence, awakening or even No Self’s pure “consciousness,” the day-to-day realities can all too easily fall by the wayside. And then we can forget to truly care for a child, or to draw out a friend in need, or to protest a wrong. All this talk is very nice sounding but all I really want to know is how to live my life with more loving kindness; how to build the courage to believe that I can change, and that my talents and possibilities can help to change the world, in however small a sphere. I want to be and do— so as my mama likes to say, do be do be do!
Very distressing indeed to hear about a crisis at the Lewis Caroll school and the rest of the real life stuff that’s going down while we talk of fine things like consciousness. What does it mean to truly become a caring, courageous human being? Isn’t that what awakening really is all about?
In love and leaping,
J.
March 31, 2007 at 9:36 am
Howard Carter #70
It is quite ironic but what you ended up sending will probably ellicit more of a “good side” response than the witty one the gods held up. Ironic also is that it will reinforce your present understanding.
I will begin by repeating something you said RB said. There is no valid reason to leave a school.
He also said I will never ask a student to leave the school because i know it means the end of all possibilties forever or something to that effect. I was in the fof from age 20 to 24 and i was kicked out. Now, what could a young man at that age have done to warrant that kind of punishment, murder? That is unjust and going against what he said he would never do, which he does again and again and again.
When i listen to George Bush and others in power lie and lie to support their power and position and wealth i am enraged. A despot is a despot. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…
When i see knowledge twisted and distorted to bend influence and wealth to ones own benefit i am enraged. I am equally enraged when that distortion is repeated by someone else.
It has been 27 years and i have lived in a wider world and yet have also been close to the mechanations of the fof.
I now look back from the mountain top into the valley of the ideas of G and O and others and see what they were pointing to wholly and completely and i have “changed my relationship” to them.
I do not see “negative emotions” as you do. I do not see “presence” as you do. I do not agree with your glass analogy. I do not see wit as a negative emotion or an attack to hurt someone’s feelings but one of many ways to say something in a new way and hopefully to enable another to see something in a new way. Poetry also can do this. Meet you down the blog #9 expressed the purpose of a school in that poem.
I will continue to respond with wit and rage to distortions of knowledge and ignorance with the knowledge we are all brothers in arms.
P.S. Well, maybe only half way up the mountain, and sometimes i do it just to piss someone off.
March 31, 2007 at 11:27 am
Dear IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO (5/69),
I understand – thank you for your generous response. I hear you well and can appreciate your meaning and the economy, too. Yes, we will need Time to know how we will remain connected, but surely we are connected.
Please stay in touch here . . .
March 31, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Thank you, friends. This discussion is becoming more and more interesting, reaching new levels.
I just wanted to say that I miss George Orwell/ Wizard of Iz/ Golden Fleece (did I miss any other of his/hers excellent writings?)
Please come back!
March 31, 2007 at 1:44 pm
You-me-us-they: good point.
After I discoverd the blog, my first reaction was: ‘Hooray! I can finally say whatever I want and you’re not gonna get me!’ I wanted to express my views on R’s actions and what they lead to, to do everything in my power to ‘bring the bastard down’.
Now I am reading in James Webb’s book ‘The Harmonious Circle’ about the devastation that Gurjieff’s illness and death brought to his pupils. (By the way, in that book I find a lot of similarities between G and RB in their ‘power-sex-money’ manipulations).
It made me think that there must be a lot of students who are not ready to live without the structure of the FOF and R’s teaching. What will happen to them if everything they believe in collapses?
In Elena’s strive to re-establish the community on a healthy base (however idealistic I personally find it), I can see the possibility for those in need of a structure to continue their lives and work on themselves on a truthful, open, free base.
I want to say to Abigal that although I understand her natural wish to destroy the lies and criminal tendencies in the FOF through direct actions, they might resullt in many people’s suffering, deportation from the US after living there for many years, and maybe even more violent consequences than we would want to think of.
Direct confrontation has never led to a harmonious resolution, it always brings war in the end. We can master our anger and see whether a ‘bloodless’ action could be taken instead. Exposure of the current state of the FOF to it’s members, open criticism of Robert’s actions might be more useful for those ‘inside’ than bringing it to the attention of the authorities.
If we see the need for a change, we must find it in a constructive approach. In that I support Elena’s views and hope that she, with her energy and understanding and with the help of others, will be able to transform the community without the need to destroy it.
‘Tread gently for you are treading on my dreams’…
March 31, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Dear all,
Can somebody tell me if the following story is true. This happened maybe a year ago or so.
A women (ex student) is walking on the beach and meets a student. Both start to talk and the student said. Robert told me to stop seeing my boyfriend and if I do not I will
get breast cancer.
Can anybody confirm this recent history story?
Thanks so much and I wish it is not true.
March 31, 2007 at 5:29 pm
“…try going WITH the stream, rather than against it.”
Very cheeky! Everbody knows only dead fish “go with the flow”!
March 31, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Hello friends:
I remember when I first joined the school back in the 70’s. What a relief it was! I was asleep and everyone else was. I didn’t have to blame myself or others anymore for their mechanicality or bad choices of deeds or words. This is still true. At a certain point after the anger has fallen away, whether in or out, bad decisions, harming other people are activities done in sleep. There comes a time to forgive and move on, and that includes forgiving yourself. Otherwise, change will be long in coming. Being awake does not include harming other people. The energy is too dense and consciousness is all about light. Are we all to blame for being asleep? I don’t think so. It’s all about that realization and how deeply one understands this. True awakening is understanding that we are all one and we all need to take our own responsibility for ourselves and not blame others who haven’t been able to do that yet. The process of taking responsibility is not easy but I can see no other way for change to occur, in or out of the school. Christ said it best ‘forgive them for they know not what they do’. Let’s move on and make this experience for each of us a healing experience, not a blame game.
March 31, 2007 at 5:48 pm
To answer the question posed by #85, the gist of the story as told me by the student is that Robert “warned” her that she might get breast cancer if she did not leave her relationship with the non-student boyfriend. Actually, as I recall, the words were something like “don’t wait until you get breast cancer” to follow the suggestions of your teacher.
March 31, 2007 at 5:51 pm
There is something about appearance and awareness. Although these are 2 sides of the SAME coin, but we tend to focus too much on appearance and overlook awareness. Many I’s, words, concepts, behavior – all appearance, expression, what is observed. If words are used to express awareness – it’s going to get inevitably distorted, because awareness is beyond words, it’s what contain words. But humans have to use words to communicate. And there may be no internal selfish feeling of “me”, but the word “I” has to be used anyway, due to grammar. Seeming contradiction again. “You say there is no “I” but you write “I” all the time”… Words are so dualistic. And it’s hard not to focus on words.
Dear Inner Jewels, I truly enjoyed your post. Yes, people around us are so amazing, in a way every human being we meet is so special. When numerous people here talk about realizing one’s true nature, there may be an impression like one becomes indifferent, dispassionate being, way “above it all”. No, no! Quite the opposite – there is more engagement, acceptance, compassion and love to people, things, animals – everything around. Far from indifference and non-existence! Because it is seen that it is all ONE, connected, inter-dependent alive beautiful manifestation of consciousness. It’s all divine, no exceptions.
Externally not much may change in the body, but internally there is a very noticeable sense of relief, peace, freedom to be and express whatever comes. The question “How to live my life with more love and compassion” becomes irrelevant, because strangely it is seen that we actually ARE love and compassion in our true nature, and life is just lived the way it is supposed to be. When it is seen that there is no “my” life, but just one Life, then inner tension goes away and there is a relaxation into what is, embracing, including. Responsibilities, activities, caring for kids – all continues, just like before, and even better, nothing to worry about. It just become selfless, non-attached, because it is been seen that there is no real self-center, it’s been imagined and believed in. Unfortunately, there is so much misunderstanding in this area, due to nature of words…
Someone here said so beautifully about appropriate time for the apples to fall. Nothing can be done to force things, because things are just done, when they are done, and only then. One day (may be – today?) all these contradictory words just suddenly make complete sense.
P.S. So many beautiful posts lately… It must be spring. Thank you and love to all.
March 31, 2007 at 5:53 pm
Yesri Baba dear, couldn’t agree with you more. If more people on this blog would spank their monkey then maybe their posts would make more sense!
Malice: I just LOVED My Fair Lady!! Thank you.
March 31, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Thoughts on the ‘Need for a teacher”.
Some very interesting material from Krishnamurti which may help the confused:
* you choose a teacher according to your prejudices. Since you choose your guru according to the gratification he gives you, you are not seeking truth , but a way out of confusion.
*because we do not understand ourselves, our conflicts, our responses, our miseries, we go to a guru , who we think will help us to be free of that confusion. The truth is that we can understand ourselves, only in relationship to the present. And that relationship itself is the guru, not someone outside.
* can ANYONE else clear up our confusion. We have created it. It is our own lack of SELF knowledge.
*just as a political leader is chosen by those who are in confusion …. so I choose a guru.
* the guru becomes useless when there is a particle of self-knowledge. No guru, no book or scripture, can give you self knowledge. It comes when you are aware of yourself in relationship. TO BE is to be related . Not to know relationship is misery & strife.
*truth is, living, dynamic, alert, alive. If turth is a fixed point, it is no longer truth, it is then a mere opinion.
* Truth is the unkown, and a mind that is seeking truth will never find it. For mind is made up of the known, of interpretations, it is the result of the past, of outcome of time.
* so God or Truth cannot be thought about .. truth cannot be sought: it comes to you. Truth is in every leaf, every tear, it is to be known from moment to moment. No one can lead you to truth, because the truth does not reside in the mind.
With love
March 31, 2007 at 6:37 pm
You-me-us-they No. 68 and Rita No. 84: “If we see the need for a change, we must find it in a constructive approach.”
Very nice points, both of you. It relates well to the idea of “using the right triad” that we so often discuss in the Fellowship.
On the other hand, you have these words from Oscar Wilde: “Disobedience, in the eyes of anyone who has read history, is man’s original virtue. It is through disobedience that progress has been made…”
The remaining part of the quote is: “… through disobedience and rebellion.”
Of course, those are fighting words (“and rebellion”), so I left that out. We all need to decide for ourselves what is constructive right now, but maybe it means taking Wilde’s quote and lopping off those last few words. Or maybe it means completely ignoring Wilde’s quote for others. But ultimately that’s one of the biggest questions here: Do we obey everything we are told? Maybe we do.
But hopefully we ask ourselves if THAT is constructive as well.
March 31, 2007 at 7:26 pm
Well said Inner Jewels!
I think you have raised a critical issue with beautiful clarity. Thanks for posting.
March 31, 2007 at 8:05 pm
Dear, Dear Abby # 76 and Howard Carter post 79.
I was expecting just such responses as you expressed.
The point I was making was that it’s the mind set that counts.The kind of activity that people carry out in the name of whatever Religion,God,Teacher or Aim they follow, if they believe hook line and sinker,is wholly dependent on the instructions they recieve.
There are plenty of ‘Fanatics’ in FOF.I was one myself for a while. Just witness the violent energy stemming from some of the
‘Defenders of The faith’on this blog.FOF and RB’s behaviour and ‘New teaching’is becoming more and more bizarre but I still see people ‘reasoning’ and justifying it all.Where would you draw the line and would you even be able to see one ?
March 31, 2007 at 8:33 pm
No Person #78
Thanks for your response. Yes, I almost get it, but here I am on the blog again (like Inner Jewels # 80 – a bit addicted, not many places you can meet people to talk about this sort of stuff!), while I should be making dinner or paying bills that have been piling up. This is more fun and more interesting. So I go with that thought which does not get other things done. Surely something is making decisions about what thoughts we follow, what emotions we go with, what attitudes are most constructive, otherwise we would just be following the easiest option, and never get anywhere. For example, I have a bad habit, say, overeating and want to eat less, if I was as laid back as you appear to be I would be one of those giagantic people you see waddling about! So how do you explain that?
One choice made is not to contact you directly (thanks for the invitation) but I had a thought that it may be useful to discuss this here, as I am sure I am not the only one who would like to explore all this, and become as enlightened as you appear to be! Who knows, if I contacted you on your e mail address, you may start charging, become a teacher and we all know what that could lead to!
March 31, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Is influence C clearly perceivable to us in the school because:
A.) The school is the most important thing on earth for influence C (the gods) and they manifest directly in the school and in the lives of students because we are their work on earth.
B.) Influence C is spread across the earth pretty equally. However, we in the school are far more aware of it in our lives than the majority of people because that is what we do. This increased awareness of C influence is misconstrued as the increased personal interest and occurrence of C influence in our lives.
We are taught to interpret things as being the direct intervention in our lives of supernatural powers. Think how superstitious ‘B influence people’ are in the way they ridiculously take things so personally and actually believe all of that nonsense. Of course we know better. We are the only ones who possess a real connection with the gods.
I expect this is the run of the mill set of attitudes towards god, or whatever one calls it, for the many groups who claim to offer this special connection with the supernatural. What amazes me is that I consider myself to be an intelligent man and have a high respect for many of my fellow students who I know to possess many noble virtures. How could we be so mistaken?
I certainly did not sign up for a religious group but for a 4th way school that studied man from the point of view of his possible evolution according to an objective system of psychology that allows man to understand himself and his place in the world and to awaken into a higher consciousness by developing his observing faculty.
A sincere and devoted student is indeed quite a thing and I am proud to have been one, although not really for a number of years. The question I see being raised by many is where we owe our primary loyalty. Is it right to give the school the benefit of the doubt and bridge the interval, or is this current loosening of the glue that binds us an opportunity to escape something that is no longer productive in pursuing our aim.
One thing I know for sure is that the prospect of not having to pay teaching payments and no longer feeling like I should be using the school by going along with things I find nonsensical is nice for the lazy part. Also the idea of being cut adrift in ‘life’ with no safe harbor is not something I relish and I would loose the context of many of my emotional expectations. I remember a conversation at the Apollo d’Oro when I was advised by a couple to move to Apollo. They said they had moved here with nothing and they didn’t regret it and I should do the same. It was very clear to me that they were trying to enlist imitators to justify their action that with retrospect they were not all that confident was the right thing to do. Regarding leaving the school, I see some similar behavior. Leaving the school is however not the same as pursuing your aim although it may be a necessary step. My aim should be far more important to me than Robert, the school, my friends, my comfort in staying or my comfort in going. I do not think it correct that this aim can be replaced with the aims of my teacher. I don’t know how many of you can relate to this, but ones own personal aim is higher than Robert (aim is only a word and does not do the truth of knowing what is real and feeling the necessity of manifesting it in ones life justice). Sacrificing this pearl within our own conscience is what is to be avoided at all costs. I believe that for some it is right action to stay and for others to go for some even to join, but certainly for all to decide for themselves with encouragement to ask questions that challenge and make things less comfortable for those in authority, Robert included.
March 31, 2007 at 9:33 pm
This letter is for Fencesitter and for anyone else who cares to read it. I wish I could have responded sooner, because I know that it is important to you.
I am a member of the Fellowship, and like you I have been reading with an open mind everything being posted here, letting it enter and agitate my being, even to the point of leaving the school if that is where it leads. It is disturbing, but I do not want to crystallize in outdated points of view or close my eyes to what may be true. This inquiry has led me deep into myself and has helped me to distill some of the points presented here. I only hope I can share them as truthfully as the way you asked your question.
I would guess that your aim is the same as mine—to create a permanent connection with the divinity within—the deepest mystery of our life on earth. Can this be done within the Fellowship? Yes, of course. Many are doing it. Can it be done outside the Fellowship? Yes, by the many statements here.
Do the various methods spoken of here–from the Methodist church to non-dualism to jumping passionately into life, heart and soul–offer the same degree of third force? Not by what I can tell, not only by these sincere testimonies, but by all I have read, experienced, and heard.
Do I really need so much third force to evolve? Yes, by my own observations. The denying force of imagination and sleep is abundantly clear to me. The disciplines, the exercises, the constant presence of other students, the organized events, the beauty of the surroundings, the contact with a conscious teacher—all these support this aim. Of course, this my experience, and I do not pretend to speak for others.
I am grateful that the school is entirely organized–down to the last salt shaker—with the aim of creating consciousness in its participants, and that almost all its members share that aim. I appreciate the non-sentimental approach to effort and the transformation of suffering. I appreciate the attempt to avoid the expression of negativity. I appreciate its focus, its freedom from distractions and the law of accident. Others seem to find this limiting, but for myself, it is essential.
There may very well be many lifetimes needed to complete one’s work (and Robert is not the only one saying this, check out the Bhagavad-Gita, Sixth Teaching 37-47), but I want to live this life feeling I have not missed out doing everything I could.
Every word I have read and heard from Adyashanti and the other teachers mentioned here seems true, but nothing is at all radical or new, merely a shift in perspective. Robert says, “All schools are the same school,” so why should we be surprised that the truth is everywhere? However, these teachings often seem to come more in the form of philosophy than in practical tools.
It certainly would be blissful to think there is no more work left to do, but it does seem naive. A system that does not include the idea of denying force and the need for effort does not correspond with my own observations. It is interesting to see that the Sufis, the Philokalia, the Hindus, the Tibetans, and most of the other great traditions are based on the need for discipline and effort. I agree is a refreshing change to recognize that one already has an eternal, unchanging soul, and that nothing more is needed to attain it, but it is not the whole picture.
Is the independence that is extolled so often in this blog possible only by leaving the Fellowship, or is it possible to be independent within the Fellowship? It may seem odd to some, but I feel that with each year, I am learning to be more independent of opinions, approval, role, position, emotional states, health, teacher. At the same time, this does not mean I want to ignore all the remarkable third forces available to me. Here, freedom is the freedom to choose. Strangely, it is actually possible to be a Fellowship student and to grow in independence—that is, in independence from one’s own ‘I’s. Any other independence is just a pose.
I actually think Robert is relieved when we free ourselves from our dependency on him, but as usual, he is not telling us this until we get there. Again, this does not mean leaving the school, the exercises, the disciplines, and the third forces that keep us focused on the work, but leaving the imaginary ‘I’s that imprison us. This is the true escape. Any other escape is just cosmetic.
A question is then, have we as students developed enough strength and will to go out and do it on our own? The answer is probably yes, and if the school were to fail, I am sure that most of the students would sincerely continue their work wherever they found themselves. We are well prepared. Just ask John Wheeler! But until then, why would we not make use of the only conscious school we know?
I find it hopeful that those who have left are finding their way outside the school, just as I hope they do not find it impossible that some of us are still gaining from the school and choose to stay. There is nothing in the work of self-remembering that is meant to separate people; it is meant to bring us together. (Remember Heraclites, “They that are awake share one world in common, but of the sleeping each turns aside to a world of his own.”) There is no exclusivity in our position. It is more, as Robert said, that we are “equally beggars.”
Are there many things I don’t understand in the Fellowship or wish could be different? Yes–and some of them haven’t even been mentioned in this blog! Is there any place on this planet free of injustice and contradictions? Nothing yet that I have found. Are there better opportunities for concentrated spiritual work somewhere else? There may be, but I have not encountered any, and fate has brought me here.
The school is full of disturbing contradictions that are impossible to resolve. Everything everybody has said here is on some level true, just not true enough to displace the highest truth, which lies beyond the duality of good and bad (where I would like to meet some of you very dualistic non-dualists!)
And where did all this morality come from anyway? I thought we were the products of the sexual revolution. How much do we actually know about sex? I have been surprised to see the witchhunt for R for his alleged sexual life. Maybe the family values people are having an effect!
I won’t stick up for him or for his lovers, but I will say it is a more complex issue than can be dealt with here. I know some of them well, and their motives are mixed, and include the wish to be near R and to learn from him, and for whatever reason they decide to stay, and that is why it remains a paradox.
I can state from my experiences that the Fellowship is a conscious school, with a conscious teacher, engaged in a conscious experiment. It is not without fault, but it shows us what is possible when many people work together for many years towards the same invisible aim. It is not surprising that such a place would create so many explosions!
If I and others stay in the school it is not because we think there are no possibilities outside, but because we are interested and committed to being part of this conscious experiment – a seemingly unusual thing on earth. A school requires special conditions and – I think this is what bothers people so much – more laws, rather than less, including the willingness to put one’s will under the will of another. Most of all it requires a conscious teacher at the heart of it. RB is such, and continues to surprise and challenge and love and enrage us “beyond thought.” He keeps the school going against all the odds. I am paying him for this, and he has kept his part of the bargain much better than I have kept mine. This cannot be proved, but only felt.
We have been warned abundantly against group-think in this blog, but it goes both ways. The majority of the posters seem to harbor considerable ill will to the Fellowship, and are reluctant to allow for it to be anything other than a cult, and its members, at best, deluded. People have always been unhappy with the Fellowship and always have left. There are over 10,000 of them by now. We have just never seen so many in one place at one time, so that it suddenly seems like a tsunami of opposition.
I would also like to suggest to Medusa, Mole, Walls Have Ears, and some of the others who no longer belong in the Fellowship, but are still in it, to quietly go. It is fine to be disappointed and to voice your frustrations, and absolutely fine to leave the school and check out the alternatives, but it is not useful to go out in such a blaze of negativity. Your revenge will probably not do much harm to the Fellowship, but may very likely may do harm to yourselves.
A friend.
March 31, 2007 at 9:35 pm
It has been clear to me for many years now that the school is really Robert’s school, it was created and is maintained as his vehicle not ours. In an ordinary way, I admire the way he has managed to carve out a place for himself. It was said of Gurdjieff that he lived as a man would live if he had the choice. I think Robert lives his life as a man with his mechanics would live if allowed to and if both reckless and confident enough to get away with it. In terms of asserting your interests and controlling others for your own purposes, it is no mean feat. The obvious question is whether this power comes to Robert through his being on a higher level than us, whether it is attributable to the dynamics of his methods or if it is a mixture of the two – what the proportions are.
This is a most important point and worthy of consideration if you want to try to live by the often quoted maxim that the unexamined life is not worth living. One angle on this topic is as follows:
In the last 10 years Robert has taken up teaching directly again, replacing the old Quaker-esqué style meeting format and increasing fundraising events to unsustainable levels. At the same time his sexual behavior has also apparently increased. I say apparently as several friends of mine who are privy to the goings on in the Galleria have told me that orgies are now the norm and I have no reason to doubt them. Taken together with this new knowledge that Robert is passing down to us it is indeed an interesting time.
One theory is that Robert was in such an unassailable position that he lost even the minimal hold on ‘normal reality’ that he had had previously. He is surrounded by submissive people who do his will (there are of course those close to him who have learnt to navigate these waters for their own gain) and it is no wonder that he should go off the chart. This is his way of expressing negativity and we support it and condone it like children in an abusive relationship. After all, there would be no Robert as he is now without the school as a playground for his rampant appetites. He might well be pushing credibility to its limits in the classic end-scenario of a megalomaniac. One can have compassion for a man with so many demands on him from his loving students especially when no one can tell him when he is going off track. It can’t be easy to be a living god and it can hardly be surprising that if a psychological disorder of this magnitude runs unchecked Robert’s life should become rather a torment for him. Patterns like this have a tendency to escalate and he could be pushing the limits partly in an attempt to avoid suffering his conscience, partly as an attempt to destroy what he feels confined by and also just because he can and is taking it to the limit. He is a man of great instinctive/emotional intelligence and persuasive qualities, there is a good chance that part of him is reveling in the fact that he can feed apparently intelligent people nonsense and have them believe he is interpreting the meaning of everything for them. I see no reason to think that this scenario excludes the possibility of his being in a relatively higher state of awareness, in fact this kind of behavior would require it – it creates the circumstances for his level of attention to have to be higher. His general level of attention is certainly beyond the norm and the life he lives is both an expression and the formative means for that attention. However, this higher degree of attention does not have to be the result of having a genuinely higher level of being as described in the 4th Way tradition.
In the end we cannot know. However, if we are sincere – not thinking about what is unpleasant to us is not the solution either – there is great power in reason and this seems exactly the situation in which reason should be employed to help us see things as objectively as possible. I cannot subscribe to the view that this is just my lower self manifesting and I should find the corresponding imperishable work ‘I’ to help me disentangle myself and return to the present. My present is richer than that, it is also more inclusive. You don’t have to be uncomfortable, trying to keep eye contact with Robert, straining to hear and having to give up on trying to make any sense of what you hear to be in the 3rd state. In fact I question the legitimacy of the ‘states’ we go to the Galleria to share. They can be rich, certainly, but are also often more like hypnotic stupors.
There is no doubt that one has important experiences in the Fellowship and I am grateful. It has been an inspiring community of such diverse and yet emotionally accessible people whose priorities are so noble. I will miss it if/when I leave and will look back with love. However, the world contains much more than the Fellowship and I no longer feel I can devalue beautiful life for the sake of belonging to an elitist group of repressed people trying to perpetuate an institution that has lost its integrity.
Of course leaving does not have to be final either, one always has the option to recant and seek re-admittance into the fold of the faithful. After all, we are many ‘I’s. Good Luck!
March 31, 2007 at 10:00 pm
A wise king was riding along, at the moment when a snake was going into the
mouth of a man asleep, The rider saw and was hurrying to scare away the
snake, but he arrived too late. The snake had been swallowed.
Since the king had an abundant supply of intelligence, he struck the
sleeper several powerful blows with a mace. The strokes of the hard mace
drove the sleeper, in flight from the rider, to beneath a tree.
There many rotten apples had dropped and the King said : “Eat of these, oh
you in the grip of pain!” He gave the man so many apples to eat that they
were falling out of his mouth. The man was crying : “Oh King, pray, why
have you set on me? What have I done to you? If you had from the beginning
a quarrel with my soul, stike me with your sword and shed my blood at once.
Ill-omened was the hour I came into your sight. Happiness to him who never
saw your face! Without guilt, without sin, without having done anything
great or small, heretics would not allow such oppression! Blood gushes from
my mouth together with my words. Oh God, I beseech thee, give him
retribution!”
Every instant he was uttering a new curse, while the king kept beating him
and saying ; “Run in this plain.” Blows of the mace fell on the man, and
the King followed as swiftly as the wind. He He went on running, again and
again falling on his face. He was full-fed, sleepy and fatigued; his feet
and face became covered with a hundred thousand wounds. Till nightfall the
rider drove him to and fro, until vomiting overtook him.
All the things he had eaten, bad or good, came up from him; the snake shot
forth from him along with what he had eaten. When he saw the snake outside
of him, he fell on his knees before that benificent king. As soon as he saw
the horror of that black, ugly, big snake, grief departed from him.
“Truly,” said he, “you are the Gabriel of mercy, or you are God. Oh blest
the hour you saw me. I was dead. You have given me new life. Oh you, whom
the pure spirit would have praised, how many foolish and idle words have I
spoken to you!nIf I had known a little of this matter, how could I have
spoken foolish words? I should have spoken praise, if you had given me a
single hint as to the case, but you, keeping silent, showed persistence and
continued to beat me on the head. My head became dizzy, the wits flew out
of my head, especially as this head has little brains.”
The king answered : “If I had uttered a hint of it, your gall would have
instantly turned to water. Had I told you the qualities of the snake,
terror would have fetched up the breath from your soul. You would have
become good for nothing, as a mouse before a cat, you would have been as
distraught as a lamb before a wolf. No power to plan or move would have
remained in you. Therefore I tended to you without speaking. I was mute, I
handled the iron. If I had told you about the snake you would not have been
able to eat, nor would you have been capable of vomiting or cared to do so.
I heard your abuse and went on with my work. I kept repeating under my
breath : ‘Lord, make it easy.’ I had not permission to speak of the cause
and I had not the power to abandon you.”
“If I should tell aright the description of the enemy which is in your
souls, the gall-bladders even of courageous men would burst, such a one
would neither go his way, nor care for any work. Neither would there remain
to his heart endurance in meditation, nor to his body strength for fasting
and prayer. So that by my hand, the seemingly impossible is actualised, and
wings are restored to the bird whose plumes were torn away.”
March 31, 2007 at 10:30 pm
Thanks for the nice words Dare to Dream, Tim Campion, and Equinox. I became very ill on Wednesday and just got out of the hospital to discover I had inadvertently stirred up some trouble.
Abraham Goldman’s bizarre and muddled post where he accuses Dare to Dream of being me is almost beneath comment. I’ll just say that, for the record, I am not “Dare to Dream.” Also, there is no “Innernaught” on this blog, only “Innernaut.” Now, please go tilt at some other windmills.
I’m not feeling strong enough to write more now. I just wanted to make it clear that I am who I am, and I haven’t been intimidated away.
March 31, 2007 at 11:41 pm
To current protectors of the FOF: If another human being has had the same experience as you –many years spent in the FOF, an enthusiastic, sincere student of RB’s teaching – and through that experience comes to the understanding that this teaching is limited and misleading – why is that necessarily imagination? Why is that person so obviously “asleep” and “just believing the I’s?”
How do you know that your current experience is not imagination? How do you know that you are not asleep, only speaking about being awake? What is your proof that you are not just believing your own as well as RB’s I’s?
You have not had the experience of seeing through the illusion, so how can you judge that experience? In a moment of conscience, it is possible to see the level of selfishness and arrogance in this point of view.
If the Absolute advised you directly that self-remembering and higher states are illusions of the mind, and are not the way to perceiving reality, consciousness, pure awareness (name it as you wish) – would you allow the possibility? Try to let this question penetrate.
Of course, if a person is tightly bound to their current belief system, these words will not be able to penetrate. Only someone who has allowed themselves the freedom to be in the unknown – the experience of living between the “yes” and the “no” – could hear these comments and questions without an immediate and strong opposition.
April 1, 2007 at 12:17 am
This is long, but too good to cut…
‘Lecture given by J. Krishnamurti, in 1929, when he dissolved the Order of the Star of the East.
Krishnamurti dissolved the Order before 3000 members. Below is the full text of the talk he gave on that occasion. What he said then is equally valid today.
We are going to discuss this morning the dissolution of the Order of the Star. Many people will be delighted, and others will be rather sad. It is a question neither for rejoicing nor for sadness, because it is inevitable, as I am going to explain.
You may remember the story of how the devil and a friend of his were walking down the street, when they saw ahead of them a man stoop down and pick up something from the ground, look at it, and put it away in his pocket. The friend said to the devil, “What did that man pick up?” “He picked up a piece of Truth,” said the devil. “That is a very bad business for you, then,” said his friend. “Oh, not at all,” the devil replied, “I am going to let him organize it.”
I maintain that Truth is a pathless land, and you cannot approach it by any path whatsoever, by any religion, by any sect. That is my point of view, and I adhere to that absolutely and unconditionally. Truth, being limitless, unconditioned, unapproachable by any path whatsoever, cannot be organized; nor should any organization be formed to lead or to coerce people along any particular path. If you first understand that, then you will see how impossible it is to organize a belief. A belief is purely an individual matter, and you cannot and must not organize it. If you do, it becomes dead, crystallized; it becomes a creed, a sect, a religion, to be imposed on others. This is what everyone throughout the world is attempting to do. Truth is narrowed down and made a plaything for those who are weak, for those who are only momentarily discontented. Truth cannot be brought down, rather the individual must make the effort to ascend to it. You cannot bring the mountain-top to the valley. If you would attain to the mountain-top you must pass through the valley, climb the steeps, unafraid of the dangerous precipices. You must climb towards the Truth, it cannot be “stepped down” or organized for you. Interest in ideas is mainly sustained by organizations, but organizations only awaken interest from without. Interest, which is not born out of love of Truth for its own sake, but aroused by an organization, is of no value. The organization becomes a framework into which its members can conveniently fit. They no longer strive after Truth or the mountain-top, but rather carve for themselves a convenient niche in which they put themselves, or let the organization place them, and consider that the organization will thereby lead them to Truth.
So that is the first reason, from my point of view, why the Order of the Star should be dissolved. In spite of this, you will probably form other Orders, you will continue to belong to other organizations searching for Truth. I do not want to belong to any organization of a spiritual kind, please understand this. I would make use of an organization which would take me to London, for example; this is quite a different kind of organization, merely mechanical, like the post or the telegraph. I would use a motor car or a steamship to travel, these are only physical mechanisms which have nothing whatever to do with spirituality. Again, I maintain that no organization can lead man to spirituality.
If an organization be created for this purpose, it becomes a crutch, a weakness, a bondage, and must cripple the individual, and prevent him from growing, from establishing his uniqueness, which lies in the discovery for himself of that absolute, unconditioned Truth. So that is another reason why I have decided, as I happen to be the Head of the Order, to dissolve it. No one has persuaded me to this decision.
This is no magnificent deed, because I do not want followers, and I mean this. The moment you follow someone you cease to follow Truth. I am not concerned whether you pay attention to what I say or not. I want to do a certain thing in the world and I am going to do it with unwavering concentration. I am concerning myself with only one essential thing: to set man free. I desire to free him from all cages, from all fears, and not to found religions, new sects, nor to establish new theories and new philosophies. Then you will naturally ask me why I go the world over, continually speaking. I will tell you for what reason I do this: not because I desire a following, not because I desire a special group of special disciples. (How men love to be different from their fellow-men, however ridiculous, absurd and trivial their distinctions may be! I do not want to encourage that absurdity.) I have no disciples, no apostles, either on earth or in the realm of spirituality.
Nor is it the lure of money, nor the desire to live a comfortable life, which attracts me. If I wanted to lead a comfortable life I would not come to a Camp or live in a damp country! I am speaking frankly because I want this settled once and for all. I do not want these childish discussions year after year.
One newspaper reporter, who interviewed me, considered it a magnificent act to dissolve an organization in which there were thousands and thousands of members. To him it was a great act because, he said: “What will you do afterwards, how will you live? You will have no following, people will no longer listen to you.” If there are only five people who will listen, who will live, who have their faces turned towards eternity, it will be sufficient. Of what use is it to have thousands who do not understand, who are fully embalmed in prejudice, who do not want the new, but would rather translate the new to suit their own sterile, stagnant selves? If I speak strongly, please do not misunderstand me, it is not through lack of compassion. If you go to a surgeon for an operation, is it not kindness on his part to operate even if he cause you pain? So, in like manner, if I speak straightly, it is not through lack of real affection – on the contrary.
As I have said, I have only one purpose: to make man free, to urge him towards freedom, to help him to break away from all limitations, for that alone will give him eternal happiness, will give him the unconditioned realization of the self.
Because I am free, unconditioned, whole-not the part, not the relative, but the whole Truth that is eternal – I desire those, who seek to understand me, to be free; not to follow me, not to make out of me a cage which will become a religion, a sect. Rather should they be free from all fears-from the fear of religion, from the fear of salvation, from the fear of spirituality, from the fear of love, from the fear of death, from the fear of life itself. As an artist paints a picture because he takes delight in that painting, because it is his self-expression, his glory, his well-being, so I do this and not because I want any thing from anyone.
You are accustomed to authority, or to the atmosphere of authority, which you think will lead you to spirituality. You think and hope that another can, by his extraordinary powers-a miracle-transport you to this realm of eternal freedom which is Happiness. Your whole outlook on life is based on that authority.
You have listened to me for three years now, without any change taking place except in the few. Now analyze what I am saying, be critical, so that you may understand thoroughly, fundamentally. When you look for an authority to lead you to spirituality, you are bound automatically to build an organization around that authority. By the very creation of that organization, which, you think, will help this authority to lead you to spirituality, you are held in a cage.
If I talk frankly, please remember that I do so, not out of harshness, not out of cruelty, not out of the enthusiasm of my purpose, but because I want you to understand what I am saying. That is the reason why you are here, and it would be a waste of time if I did not explain clearly, decisively, my point of view.
For eighteen years you have been preparing for this event, for the Coming of the World-Teacher. For eighteen years you have organized, you have looked for someone who would give a new delight to your hearts and minds, who would transform your whole life, who would give you a new understanding; for someone who would raise you to a new plane of life, who would give you a new encouragement, who would set you free-and now look what is happening! Consider, reason with yourselves, and discover in what way that belief has made you different-not with the superficial difference of the wearing of a badge, which is trivial, absurd. In what manner has such a belief swept away all the unessential things of life? That is the only way to judge: in what way are you freer, greater, more dangerous to every Society which is based on the false and the unessential? In what way have the members of this organization of the Star become different?
As I said, you have been preparing for eighteen years for me. I do not care if you believe that I am the World-Teacher or not. That is of very little importance. Since you belong to the organization of the Order of the Star, you have given your sympathy, your energy, acknowledging that Krishnamurti is the World-Teacher- partially or wholly: wholly for those who are really seeking, only partially for those who are satisfied with their own half-truths.
You have been preparing for eighteen years, and look how many difficulties there are in the way of your understanding, how many complications, how many trivial things. Your prejudices, your fears, your authorities, your churches new and old – all these, I maintain, are a barrier to understanding. I cannot make myself clearer than this. I do not want you to agree with me, I do not want you to follow me, I want you to understand what I am saying.
This understanding is necessary because your belief has not transformed you but only complicated you, and because you are not willing to face things as they are. You want to have your own gods – new gods instead of the old, new religions instead of the old, new forms instead of the old – all equally valueless, all barriers, all limitations, all crutches. Instead of old spiritual distinctions you have new spiritual distinctions, instead of old worships you have new worships. You are all depending for your spirituality on someone else, for your happiness on someone else, for your enlightenment on someone else; and although you have been preparing for me for eighteen years, when I say all these things are unnecessary, when I say that you must put them all away and look within yourselves for the enlightenment, for the glory, for the purification, and for the incorruptibility of the self, not one of you is willing to do it. There may be a few, but very, very few.
So why have an organization?
Why have false, hypocritical people following me, the embodiment of Truth? Please remember that I am not saying something harsh or unkind, but we have reached a situation when you must face things as they are. I said last year that I would not compromise. Very few listened to me then. This year I have made it absolutely clear. I do not know how many thousands throughout the world- members of the Order-have been preparing for me for eighteen years, and yet now they are not willing to listen unconditionally, wholly, to what I say.
So why have an organization?
As I said before, my purpose is to make men unconditionally free, for I maintain that the only spirituality is the incorruptibility of the self which is eternal, is the harmony between reason and love. This is the absolute, unconditioned Truth which is Life itself. I want therefore to set man free, rejoicing as the bird in the clear sky, unburdened, independent, ecstatic in that freedom . And I, for whom you have been preparing for eighteen years, now say that you must be free of all these things, free from your complications, your entanglements. For this you need not have an organization based on spiritual belief. Why have an organization for five or ten people in the world who understand, who are struggling, who have put aside all trivial things? And for the weak people, there can be no organization to help them to find the Truth, because Truth is in everyone; it is not far, it is not near; it is eternally there.
Organizations cannot make you free. No man from outside can make you free; nor can organized worship, nor the immolation of yourselves for a cause, make you free; nor can forming yourselves into an organization, nor throwing yourselves into works, make you free. You use a typewriter to write letters, but you do not put it on an altar and worship it. But that is what you are doing when organizations become your chief concern. “How many members are there in it?” That is the first question I am asked by all newspaper reporters. “How many followers have you? By their number we shall judge whether what you say is true or false.” I do not know how many there are. I am not concerned with that. As I said, if there were even one man who had been set free, that were enough.
Again, you have the idea that only certain people hold the key to the Kingdom of Happiness. No one holds it. No one has the authority to hold that key. That key is your own self, and in the development and the purification and in the incorruptibility of that self alone is the Kingdom of Eternity.
So you will see how absurd is the whole structure that you have built, looking for external help, depending on others for your comfort, for your happiness, for your strength. These can only be found within yourselves.
So why have an organization?
You are accustomed to being told how far you have advanced, what is your spiritual status. How childish! Who but yourself can tell you if you are beautiful or ugly within? Who but yourself can tell you if you are incorruptible? You are not serious in these things.
So why have an organization?
But those who really desire to understand, who are looking to find that which is eternal, without beginning and without an end, will walk together with a greater intensity, will be a danger to everything that is unessential, to unrealities, to shadows. And they will concentrate, they will become the flame, because they understand. Such a body we must create, and that is my purpose. Because of that real understanding there will be true friendship. Because of that true friendship- which you do not seem to know-there will be real cooperation on the part of each one. And this not because of authority, not because of salvation, not because of immolation for a cause, but because you really understand, and hence are capable of living in the eternal. This is a greater thing than all pleasure, than all sacrifice.
So these are some of the reasons why, after careful consideration for two years, I have made this decision. It is not from a momentary impulse. I have not been persuaded to it by anyone. I am not persuaded in such things. For two years I have been thinking about this, slowly, carefully, patiently, and I have now decided to disband the Order, as I happen to be its Head. You can form other organizations and expect someone else. With that I am not concerned, nor with creating new cages, new decorations for those cages. My only concern is to set men absolutely, unconditionally free.
© Copyright 1998 — KFA; All Rights Reserved
Krishnamurti Foundation of America,
founded in 1969 by J. Krishnamurti’
April 1, 2007 at 12:46 am
Its been mentioned on the blog that someone named John Wheeler has said that ex-Fellowship members who come to his group are well prepared. I thought I would give a current member’s take on this.
As I see it, he is referring to ex-members of the Fellowship’s outer circle. Those in the inner circle do not leave the school, so they have either died in the school or are still members. All of the coming and going takes place from the outer circle. Needless to say, all join from the outer circle and some move towards the inner circle. If John wheeler has had any contact with inner circle Fellowship members it would have been through the opposite progression; that is, they would have passed through his group on the way “to” the school.
Howard
April 1, 2007 at 12:51 am
Maybe FOF is a ‘IGNES FATUI’? And by the way, The old English drinking song with American lyrics, “Star Spangle Banner” and “America the Beautiful” elicits what from which center?
April 1, 2007 at 2:05 am
Dana,
Thank you for the well meant response, A few thoughts to consider. Yes, I have asked the question – who am I – what am I – and also have faced the confrontation of the agony of the ‘me’. This is akin to the cat chasing its own tail and leads nowhere. Maybe the nowhere is the answer? What are the reference points? As to your quotes ‘We give up everything….but we don’t give up…the spiritual belief’ This statement too, has to be given up, since it is a belief (And so does this one). As I said, the mind is tricky, yes, mine too, and you and I could play this spiritual form of Judo for a long time. Its lots of fun, creates atmosphere at Dinnerparties, but I am sorry, I am no loger running with Ducks.
..Finally, the word ‘Only’ already kills any life the teaching of Adyashanti may have, when it is reduced to the idea of ‘Only’. On the surface all this sounds as if the word of God, but – when really lived -blows in the wind as so much dust.
Dana…Dana? The name rings a bell, are you from Bucharest?
Alexis?
April 1, 2007 at 2:16 am
Rita, that exclamation mark at the end of your comment about my comment has a sting in it…
Furthermore, I refuse to believe your statement that is was a sunny day in Hampstead. In March? In London? You’re kidding, right? Love the irony….
Alexis
Alexis, well done for not believing. This is what we were supposed to learn in the school (verify), but usually find after leaving: not believing anybody but ourselves, even if we prove ourselves wrong later on!
April 1, 2007 at 3:04 am
Inmate #44
Dear all,
I wish I could say that the following is a joke, but apparently it is not. It is a new teaching in preparation that was leaked to me by an impeccable source. The photographs themselves have been omitted as they cannot be posted here.
******************************
Dear Friends,
Along with gathering the earliest expressions of the System in prehistoric times, it behooves us also to seek out expressions of Higher School as they manifest today, albeit unwittingly, through resonances in the popular culture that surrounds us. Although depraved, popular culture nevertheless serves as a vehicle for the expression of Higher School for our sublime benefit. Thus Robert has requested that I pass on the following images and associated quotations that help to explain their keys.
1) The first image is that of a mouse with two large black ears (named Michael), a dog (named Pluto), and a duck (named Donald). (Walt Disney Company, 79 BP)
“It has been a hard day’s night, and I have been working like a dog
It has been a hard day’s night, I should be sleeping like a log
But when I get home to you I find the things that you do
Will make me feel alright”
— the Beatles, 43 BP
The mouse’s two large ears are the key for higher centres, while the dog, being “God” spelled backwards and named Pluto after the now-demoted planet, with ears drooping downwards, clearly refers to the cold and desperate end of those who lose the Way. Interestingly, “dog” rhymes with “blog.” What the duck is a key for is unknown at this time.
The passage describes the lonely and heroic work of the solitary Fellowship student (working like a god) whose steward has been enacting the sequence (working) to rise above incessant imagination (sleeping like a log) to create the real Self (I get home to you) with Long BE (make me feel alright). The long hair worn by the Beatles in the 1960s confirms Higher School’s reference to the “Long BE.”
2) The second image is that of the rear of an automobile. On the right, a chrome emblem in the shape of a fish. On the left, a ribbon in a similar shape, which states, “Support Our Troops.” In the middle, a license plate that reads, “BOB N MAE.” (Automobile traveling West on Highway 80 near Sacramento, California, 0 BP)
“And Sally and I
Did not know what to do.
So we had to shake hands
With Thing One and Thing Two.
We shook their two hands.
But our fish said, “No! No!
Those Things should not be
In this house! Make them go!
They should not be here
When your mother is not!
Put them out! Put them out!”
Said the fish in the pot.”
— The Cat in the Hat by Theodor S. Geisel, aka Dr. Seuss, 50 BP
The fish, the key for Jesus the Christ for some 2,000 years BP, here admonishes the students, and/or higher centres (Sally and I) to desist from interaction with “i”s that are unrelated to promoting presence (Thing One and Thing Two); his six “no”s intoned in series refer to the six stages of the Sequence. Ironically the fish in the pot resorts to using Feminine Dominance (They should not be here/When your mother is not) to make its point. The ribbon is keyed to the fierce battles being waged by the steward and the nine of hearts (Support our Troops). Bob and Mae, up in the front seat of the automobile, unknowingly bring us this blessed message yet are themselves heading West, the direction of the setting sun and the double death.
3) The third image is a photograph of the Hip Hop performer Snoop Dogg from his album, “Doggystyle.” (14 BP)
“Come, Dick.
Come and see.
Come, come.
Come and see.
Come and see Spot.
“Look, Spot.
Oh, look.
Look and see.
Oh, see.”
— Fun With Dick and Jane, 65 BP
The text refers to Short BE (Look) and Long BE (See), leading to prolonged presence (Oh, see), while again the image of the dog (Spot, Dogg, Blogg) refers to the end of all possibilities when the School is lost and God is stood on his head.
With love,
[Name Withheld]
April 1, 2007 at 3:11 am
to myself -55
Did I say that I was hurt??? No I didn’t , nor was I. I was simply setting the rcord straight as there seems to have been a doubt as to whether these actions occurred or not.
Sorry your having problems at the post office-
the way I relate to the ex student exercise is this. If I’m going to be in the school then I’m going to do it wholeheartedly to give it all the benefit of the doubt- which implies trying the exercises.
You may have forgotten that when you were in the school, there were probably days when friends did or not have time to stop and ask how you are.Also rightly or wrongly leaving the school does create a distance in that you are rejecting the whole structure and form of what gives my life meaning- so it may have been naive to think things would be the same no?
April 1, 2007 at 3:20 am
Hello everyone,
I finally looked at this blog today–and it is quite amazing. Spent most of the day reading posts from the last month. I spent 22 years in the FOF, joining on my 19th birthday in 1974.
Leaving the FOF was a process that probably happened over a period of 5 years. While never very involved in the bureaucracy or missionary aspects of FOF, I was one of Burton’s closest and most trusted friends for many years. While I do credit the man in teaching me quite a bit, ultimately my conscience would no longer allow me to suppress and justify what I saw in him as unbridled greed and selfishness.
For about a year after I left, my wife remained in FOF, soemtimes having dinner with RB and coming home to tell me about it. Apparently she was writing a big enough check each month to make it acceptable for her to live with moon food. But that is how it always was in FOF– different rules and standards for everyone. A true aristocracy with a literal peasant class.
Now, I rarely think about FOF, except for occasional surreal dreams, where I find myself at Oregon House, feeling a little uncomfortable because I know I have not made a teaching payment for years
Today, it is beautiful outside and the air is clear. I have never looked back on my decision to move forward with my quest for truth and leave FOF. My work has only accelerated. Teaching can come in all forms at any time. Spoken words are not always the truth. A liar can be a true teacher and then the teacher can vanish and become a barking seal.
To those friends still in FOF that are holding on to the past, have courage. Free yourself.
Rintrah roars and shakes his fires in the burden’d air; Hungry clouds swag on the deep.
Once meek, and in a perilous path, the just man kept his course along The vale of death. Roses are planted where thorns grow, and on the barren heath sing the honey bees.
Then the perilous path was planted: and a river, and a spring on every cliff and tomb; and on the bleached bones red clay brought forth.
Till the villain left the path of ease, to walk in perilous paths, and drive the just man into barren climes.
Now the sneaking serpent walks in mild humility, and the just mans rages in the wilds where lions roam.
Rintrah roars and shakes his fires in the burden’d air; Hungry clouds swag on the deep.
–W.B.
April 1, 2007 at 3:49 am
Dear Friends,
Having read up to 5/85 I wish to thank you for your innumerable reflections, gratitude and oppositions. Thank you especially for the civilized tone of the discussion. If we can bring some “order into our thoughts”, we can observe that we’re oscillating from those who are still affirming the power of remembering one’s self only, those who are questioning and affirming wether that is all that is worth doing with our lives while we work on ourselves and those who think that all the issues have been solved and are going out to get an authority to come and resolve their life for them or everybody else’s lives for them because:
Who but The Gods,
Mum and Dad,
The Teacher,
The Priest,
The King,
The State,
Or
The upper class,
The lower class,
The middle class
But at least a thousand
More than me
Could solve anything for me?
One of the aspects worth observing here is: How many of us have stayed in the Fellowship because we couldn’t possibly believe that so many of us could be mistaken, fooled? And those that were strong, how could one deny that they had reached a valid place? Weren’t we all very comfortable trying to make efforts to remember ourselves and to not express negativity towards what our presence was seeing? And even more effort to transform all of Robert’s personal life and everybody else’s too personal life?
Isn’t it interesting that the School “works” in as much as one limits one’s self to personal effort and “fails” as soon as personal issues become an issue, be they between students or between students and Robert?
Does this not give as an insight into the problem? That is, the fact that the School works in as much as we limit our selves to first line and neglect second line because the second line is resolved not by objective conditions but by subjective likes and dislikes, be they from The Teacher or from the Inner Circle or from the Outer Circle itself?
Those who are still saying, “keep just being and don’t think or do” (although some do leave us their phone number so that we make them our next Teacher), are trying to reinforce the part of ourselves that cannot decide for itself.
So, why don’t we look at some of the options?
Go back to life and do some yoga, keep developing yourself and only yourself and nothing but yourself?
Go back to life, make some money and become a good person who gives a lot of money to charity?
Go back to life and learn to appreciate the objective achievements that all societies have struggled out of themselves and recover the sense of being a simple human being in a Master’s Game?
(And there are many more options in going back to life but since it is not mine I’ll let you find out for yourself)
Or
Stay in the Fellowship and assume responsibility for the community or school that one invested half of one’s life into, a quarter or a day, with the dream of living a conscious development of one’s self and the society one chose to live in, without neglecting any of life’s achievements and on the contrary pushing them forward as far as one can?.
It is not a person or an institution who should decide our next step for we have already made that mistake for the past thirty three years, but an ideal that each one of us is willing to commit to and support, with or without acknowledgement of an “Authority”. A human being today, (and even if it doesn’t look like it, we’re all very much there), can develop himself and assume responsibility for his community, guided by his own common sense and notions of the world around him if he can establish objective foundations with which to live by and is willing to forego his subjectivity for the well being not of the king, the priest or even mum and dad and the kids, but for the whole.
April 1, 2007 at 4:41 am
from the present Wikipedia entry on the Fellowship
History
Objective statement of the history of the organization is problematic, because the organization ostracizes ex-members and prohibits current members from contact with ex-members. This creates a situation in which the organization’s institutional history is mostly unknown to its current membership. Objective sourcing is also problematic because of an institutional policy that promotes the destruction of papers documenting the organization’s early history, and is further complicated by misrepresentations of fact in official documents which the written and oral accounts of contemporaneous observers no longer within the organization contradict. These, taken together with the individual caches of old papers which have survived, as well as early photographs, drawings, and handwritten documents, together permit the delineation of a sourced, detailed history.
An essay written by the organization’s first member, Bonita Guido, a woman expelled from the organization in the early 1970s who now resides in Denmark, recounts that the Fellowship began after she met the founder at a New Year’s Eve party on December 31, 1969 in Lafayette, California. At the time, she was married for the second time with children in school, while he was a single man of 30 living at home with his mother. The essay, titled “History of the Fellowship of Friends: From January 1970 to December 1973” was privately published in 1997 to an electronic mailing list of ex-members and has since been circulated privately.
While Ms. Guido does not recount the entire conversation between founder and recruit on December 31, 1969 and January 1, 1970, she does indicate that at the time she and the founder met, he said to her, “I know a God who has no clay feet.” Mrs. Guido indicates that she was under the influence of a psychedelic drug, probably mescaline, while the founder was under the influence of alcohol. She also indicates that she attended the party somehow knowing beforehand that she was going to meet someone significant.
On July 4, 1971, the Fellowship organization purchased 1,200 acres of mostly uncleared land in the Sierra foothills and spent the next five years developing the property to serve as a central retreat for Fellowship members. From 1971 to 1976, the organization established a network of satellite groups or “centers” in California. In the early 1980s the founder directed individual members to move to Europe to found centers in major European cities. Today (2007) the Fellowship has 2,200 members, approximately a third of whom live near the retreat, which changes its name every few years and is now called Isis but has previously been called Apollo, Renaissance, the Mount Carmel Monastery, Via Del Sol, and the Farm. Others live in approximately 65 centers around the world.
Recruitment and Influence Techniques
An article by “A Collective of Women” published in the Cultic Studies Journal refers to the “studied indifference” practiced by members of the organization in respect of the recruitment of new members. See A Collective of Women, “Sex, Lies, and Grand Schemes of Thought in Closed Groups,” Cultic Studies Journal, Vol. 14, No. 1 (1997), pp. 58-84. This “studied indifference” is a formal policy of the organization repeatedly documented in its internal literature. The “prospective student meetings” are tightly scripted and have been registered as a dramatic work with the United States Register of Copyrights at the Library of Congress. See LOC Registration No. TX-4-472-455. Attendees are not informed that they are attending the performance of a dramatic work and may not understand in retrospect that the meeting they attended was not in fact “spontaneous.”
The founder at one time directed that persons conducting such meetings “administer a shock to false personality” of potential recruits by declining to accept the recruit’s hand offered in greeting. The “studied indifference” of the member toward the recruit intensifies the recruit’s desire for acceptance and offers organizational membership as that acceptance. This phenomenon has been widely discussed in the psychological literature. See Cushman, P., “The Self Besieged: Recruitment/Indoctrination Practices in Restrictive Groups,” Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour, March, 1986; Aronson, E. & Mills, J., “The effect of severity of initiation on liking for a group,” Journal of Abnormal and Social Psychology, 59, 177-181 (1959).
Prospective members and members alike are urged to refrain from the expression of negative emotions as a tenet of the Fourth Way generally and as a rule of the Fellowship organization particularly. The attempt to refrain from the expression of negative emotions creates a competition within the individual between the desire to express the “negative emotion” and the desire to refrain from its expression. Within the Fellowship organization, this competition is described as “the friction which produces consciousness,” and is lauded generally as evidence of a “deputy steward” and “the condition of Man #4.”
The influential theorist of human emotion, Silvan Tompkins, has written that “the learned inner restraint on any affect in competition with the wish to express the original affect. . . constitutes [a] stimulus to shame.” E.K. Sedgwick, A. Frank, and I.E. Alexander, Shame and Its Sisters: A Silvan Tompkins Reader (Duke Univ. Press, 1995) at p. 162. As a matter of Fellowship culture, the competition between these two desires in individuals is deliberately incited and intensified by a variety of specific and identifiable techniques. These include the injunction to restrict one’s friendships to other Fellowship members; the social stigma attached to “losing the school” which the founder equates with “spiritual suicide”; the hierarchical directives on what constitutes proper dress, or the type of music to which one should listen, or the particular practices one should observe while consuming food; the so-called “gentle art” of “photography” and how one is properly to “receive” a “photograph”; the admonitions to “avoid opposite ‘I’s,” i.e., to avoid refusing or disagreeing when a politically powerful individual requests a recruitee to take or refrain from some action. Many more examples exist, and they combine to create a culture of behavioral control through shame induction.
Shame induction is generally discussed within the literature of “coercive” or “exploitative” persuasion and “thought reform.” See L. Festinger, A Theory of Cognitive Dissonance (Stanford University Press, 1957); L. Festinger, H.W. Riecken, and S. Schachter, When Prophecy Fails: A Social and Psychological Study of a Modern Group That Predicted the Destruction of the World (Harper Collins, 1957); R. Lifton, Thought Reform and the Psychology of Totalism: A Study of Brainwashing in China (W.W. Norton & Co., 1961); P. Cushman, “The Self Besieged: Recruitment/Indoctrination Techniques in Restrictive Groups,” Journal for the Theory of Social Behaviour (March 1986). The product of the Fellowship organization’s culture of shame induction is at first to influence recruitees’ behavior, and later their belief systems, without their concurrent knowledge and informed prior consent. Such influence principally occurs when a recruitee’s distrust in his or her own ability to think critically impairs his or her ability to evaluate information objectively. While “verification” purports to be a tenet of the Ouspenskian system generally, and the Fellowship organization claims this tenet as its own, Fellowship recruitees induced to distrust their ability to think critically suffer deficits in their perceptions of reality.
Such perceptual deficits attend demands made upon new recruits for an escalating series of financial and behavioral commitments to the Fellowship organization. As the literature of cognitive dissonance demonstrates, one induced by others to act in a way dissonant with the way he sees himself will change the way he sees himself to reduce the dissonance. See P. Cushman, Op. Cit. Having complied with each step of an escalating financial commitment, the Fellowship recruitee at last sees himself as a committed student who has survived financial and spiritual trials, although he may be lacking information crucial to evaluate the wisdom of his decision, or the ability to evaluate his decision critically, even if he had such information. He is now deeply invested in the Fellowship organization. See Allan Teger, Too Much Invested To Quit, (Pergamon Press, 1980).
Material referencing experiences in the Fellowship
Strange Truth: A Horror Story (1983), by Marlane Dasmann, Library of Congress Registration No. TXu-149-031 (88-page account of author’s ten years in Fellowship and what she observed while acting as the founder’s housemaid)
Case Studies of Voluntary Defectors from Intensive Religious Groups, by Ursula Hilde Sack, Ph.D. dissertation, University of Southern California, 1985 (includes accounts of defectors from Fellowship of Friends)
Cults and consequences: The definitive handbook (1988) by R. Andres & J.R. Lane, Commission on Cults and Missionaries, Jewish Federation Council of Greater Los Angeles (includes account by former Fellowship member Barbara Bruno Lancaster)
April 1, 2007 at 5:30 am
Gee, Howard, you are really funny. You (obviously) never met John Wheeler, or ever bothered to read his books, but you like to give us a “current member’s” take on this. Excuse me, take on WHAT? Based on what? Your IMAGINATION??? You haven’t even met the guy, for crying out loud. You are hysterical! Thank God for people like you, it makes life so entertaining.
I assume you consider yourself an “inner circle” guy, right? Come on, it’s OK, be honest. You think you are a big time inner circle student -whatever this means. It’s Ok, no problem.
Here’s a real “inner circle story”: once a devoted student was staying at our house for a while. (For free of course. We never charged students overnight fee, and actually frequently fed people too) We happen to have a nice home, comfortable, spacious – it’s called a good relationship to a-influence, so to speak. Just a play, you know, happened to be so. So he was somehow bothered by it, little annoyed or may be took it personally or something, so he suddenly said -as if to trying to put us down: “You guys are outer circle. Too much a-influence here. And I am -inner circle, because I live close to the Teacher, at Isis, at the heart…” – I thought it was brilliant! Hilarious! Inner circle based on geography. Who would have guessed.
So, what makes you distinguish between inner-outer circles? Distance from gate house? Amount of money paid per year? Years served in FOF? Level of devotion? Amount of events attended? “Closeness” to the Teacher?
How do you know that John Wheeler talked to “outer cirlce” guys? Just because YOU didn’t attend? You are FUNNY man, Howard.
Please, please, open your eyes and see your own limiting vanity and condescendent judgmental attitude. Inner cirlcle. Superior race. What a shame, what arrogance , what joke.
“I don’t know the guy, haven’t heard his name or read his stuff, but here’s my valid opinion how “outer circlish” and superficial his stuff is.
Well done, Howard, excellent.
By the way, John doesn’t have “his group”. He doesn’t call himself a teacher, and doesn’t promote following or spiritual dependency. If you want to contact him instead of just guessing – go on his site, and write him an e-mail, http://www.thenaturalstate.org.
Hey, how about coming to my place next week and meeting John in person? We invited him to have talks here for our friends and anyone who is interested. Please come, and ask all the inner cirlce questions in relaxed setting, see it all for yourself. I’ll even pore you a glass of wine, I promise.
malaec@yahoo.com
April 1, 2007 at 6:49 am
RE #107: “Interestingly, ‘dog’ rhymes with ‘blog.’ What the duck is a key for is unknown at this time.”
Allow me to help here. Interestingly, ‘duck’ rhymes with…
April 1, 2007 at 6:58 am
For those who might be in need of inner peace…
I am passing this on to you because it definitely worked for me, and we all could us a little mroe clamness and peace in our lives. By following the simple advice I heard yesterday on the radio. I have finally found inner peace.
The phone in show was talking about the stress of work and making efforts. Dr Phil proclaimed,
” The way to achieve inner peace is to finish all the things you’ve started and never finished.”
So, I looked around my house to see all the things I started and hadn’t finished, and before leaving the house this morning, I finished off the bottle of Merlot, the bottle of White Zinfandel, a bottle of Bailey’s Irish Cream, a bottle of Bombay Sapphire, a packet of Jaffa Cakes, the remainder of my old Prozac prescription, the rest of the cheesecake, last nights pizza, and some Doritos and Box of Chocolates.
You have no idea how bloody good I feel!!!! The man is a Genius!
April 1, 2007 at 7:25 am
Dear Lust for life, look, I am NOT an “enlightened person”. There is this mental idea of “personal enlightenment”, which is really nonsense. It is seen that there is no one, no “person” who can get it, just this observing, living, looking, cognizing, experiencing- whatever -ing! There is just universal LIGHT, no “me”. It shines throught everyone, you, me, every being, or object. This, which observes and lives , is ALWAYS on, alive, conscious, never goes off. And the imagined character we think ourselves to be has all the problems – it thinks it cannot be present, it is afraid of the future, it cannot accept what’s happening right now… But “he” is a mind structure! “He” never lived on his own. Your true identity is consciousness, what observes, so is what I am. No difference. There is a belief in “me” in one case or there is a seeing that there is no “me” in the other case. But consciousness is all the same, here, there, everywhere. With the belief in “me”, or without. There is no loosing in this game. The whole “going to the moon” is just another mind idea, used to produce fear.
You see, if your body is destined to get fat -it will. If you must die one day – you will. Stuff just happens and life goes on, unfolds, like a flower, completely unknown and mysterious. There is a big illusion about personal choice making. There is no avoiding what is meant to happen. Look, I cut my hand today. I didn’t want to, but it happened anyway. I met a person I didn’t expect meeting and learned information I didn’t expect learning. I ate too much and drank too much at a party, and it was not my intention, in fact I didn’t even want to go there. Does it tell you something? We are not in charge. Not because “we are weak” but because there is simply no “you” or “me”. Stuff just happens THROUGH our body-minds, and something watches the play unfolding. Mental dialog goes on, but there is no central “doer”. Choices are just 2 contradicting thoughts, one prevails, so there is an illusion of a choice made. By whom? No one is there to make it.
If it is seen, the questions about what to do just disappear. Until it is seen, there will be questions about what to do. So, may I kindly suggest – try to see who you really are first. Try to acknowledge ever-present awareness, looking through your eyes right now, and notice that the “me” guy is nowhere to be found, except in the mind as a thought story.
I am not going to teach or charge – that is funny. How can anyone teach you what you already are, your true nature? It’s like selling snow in winter to the Eskimo guy. I only try to point, or share my understanding, just like other friends do here, but it’s up to you to look and recognize it for yourself.
Thank you for your questions.
P.S. I find it more interesting to read and write to this blog than to watch TV, shop on E-Bay, talk on the phone or do other more “meaningful” things. To me this blog is as full of meaning as it gets. I am thankful it exists.
malaec@yahoo.com
April 1, 2007 at 8:04 am
…time to get out of the rabbit hole to move on to The Universe-city of Life!
Efforts delay Presence…release your eyes(I’s)
….receive the Unknown….The Wordless State!
…and welcome The Beloved.
“Presence has no eyes”. (I`s)
April 1, 2007 at 9:06 am
Hey, how about that Howard Carter thing.
Huh?
Yeah, he really gave you the slap down with that negativity thing.
No he didn’t.
Uh huh.
Uh uh.
Then why did you keep thinking about it, turning it over and over?
I was trying to understand what he was saying and how to respond.
Yea sure, he pissed you off.
Did not .
Did to and how did that response go?
I came off like an arrogant ass.
Arrogant ass! That was nothing. What about that Christ crap you were slinging around. How the hell do you know what Christ thought?
Hey, she expressed something using that language and i tried to respond. You know all that symbolism came from the magic-mythic period of human development. “Satan” or “Devil”
is a description of the devolution of Spirit into creation.
Spirit? Huh, shut up!
No!
Yes!
No!
And look at his point of view. He is plopped out from nowhere. Doesn’t know how to eat, shit or do anything. He is given senses that only point outward and a binary linguistic structure that becomes filled with crappy language from idiot parents and insane society. Taught to learn, learn, learn; work, work, work; buy, buy, buy. Strive, succeed, win, win, win don’t be a loser. He develops a herky-jerky one trick pony dancing as fast as it can to ignore chasms of contradictions, oceans of pain until he goes stark, raving bonkers and looks for help. THEN a bunch of people who pretend to know something gather around him with sticks and “clubs” and beat him while chanting “you are just ‘false personality’, ‘instinctive center’, ‘invisible boogy’ that sabotages everything. Work, work, work, don’t be a loser.”
Whatever loser, but he is intellegent and protects himself.
Nooo…! only Man’s reason is intellegent. Everything else is inert stuff. Nature, the stars, consciousness is all stuff out there to be utilized and possessed by man’s perfect intellegence. Idiot! It is all intellegent; intellegent beyond our wildest imagination, and everything protects itself.
I say, get behind me and climb on my back. I will carry you a while. You have carried me all this way. You are a burden but so am i.
That is him trying to decieve you.
No it isn’t.
Is to.
Is not.
is.
not.
You are so full of it. Hey, since you know so much, if Christ came back what do you think he would say about the distortions of his teachings and all these mega-money churches and the turning of his truth into its opposite perhaps bringing mankind to the brink of annhilation?
I imagine he would be enraged.
I just thought of something. If mankind totally destroys itself would God disappear or would it be more like a “break-through” in his work on his “narcissistic personality disorder”?
Man, what have you been smoking, where do you come up with this stuff?
Hey, what about the women on this blog, wow!
Yeah, it is totally awesome. So many of them “getting it” it is unbelievable.
Remember what G. said about man and dogs, how man better wear cast iron underwear in the after-life?
Yeah.
Well, he better bring a cast-iron jock strap too!
Ha, ha! Yeah, i am way tired of these pasty white guys running stuff.
Yeah, friggen’ idiots.
I’m tired.
Me too.
I’ll just send this and we’ll get outa here.
Whoa! you’re not sending this!
Yes i am.
No, You’re not!
Yes!
No! everyone is going to think you’re an infantile idiot and they will ignore your comments.
They already ignore them you twit.
They are going to think you’re stupid. You didn’t use enough big words.
What about that “binary linguistic” thing.
Yeah, that was ok but that was about it.
I am going to send it.
No you’re not!
Yes i am.
NO, you are not!
Yes!
NO!
NO!
April 1, 2007 at 9:09 am
Dear Friend in 97
Thank you for so beautifully expressing my own experience of the school. I also want to add that being in the school for me only enriches every aspect of being alive and is always an expanding and inclusice experience as opposed to an exclusive one.
It is such a delicate flower that we all talk of, how easily we can all blow it away with our words….
April 1, 2007 at 9:44 am
To: A Friend, #97
Amen.
April 1, 2007 at 9:45 am
Oohhh, naughty, bad, scarry snake!
April 1, 2007 at 10:15 am
Dear Friend (97) and Friends,
You say:
“I would guess that your aim is the same as mine—to create a permanent connection with the divinity within—the deepest mystery of our life on earth.”
Is your aim ONLY to create a permanent connection with the divinity within? (Self Remembering?) Or, do you consider possible creating a permanent connection with the divinity without? (External Consideration?) Or, do you think that when you die there’ll be no divinity on Earth? (Egotism?)
You say: “I am grateful that the school is entirely organized–down to the last salt shaker—with the aim of creating consciousness in its participants, and that almost all its members share that aim”.
Do you really think that all its members share the aim that it is organized by Mr. Burton –down to the last shaker- or might there be some members who don’t need Mr. Burton to determine their “awakening” down to their last shaker?
You say: “I appreciate the non-sentimental approach to effort and the transformation of suffering”. Just like in the military? Are you a martial by chance? And your family, in the military? Just how non-sentimental are you willing to get?
You say: “I appreciate the attempt to avoid the expression of negativity. I appreciate its focus,”
Can you sincerely and deeply tell us that you appreciate the focus of the prehistoric indulgence? Do you sincerely find Robert’s personal life that focused? Can you sincerely say that Mr. Haven’s and other student’s focus is the development of second line of work (which as stated in the workbooks is one essential line of development?) or are you just saying that we should all be free from these distractions and laws of accident which for you are so essential?
“Its freedom from distractions and the law of accident. Others seem to find this limiting, but for myself, it is essential.”
Essential, so that you don’t ever have to address these issues in your life and work?
You say: “I want to live this life feeling I have not missed out doing everything I could”
To live this life? Or to live “consciousness without functions?”
You say: “Robert says, “All schools are the same school,” so why should we be surprised that the truth is everywhere?”
Indeed! And doesn’t Robert also say that: THIS is the only conscious school presently on planet earth; That IT, The Fellowship of Friends, is actually the LAST conscious school; That HE is the only conscious teacher amongst the six billion people on the planet? Which therefore implies that if you don’t belong to it you’re doomed to the last hell in the Universe? But, no one in the Fellowship really believes that nonsense, right? So what do they believe? What do you really believe, then?
You say: “However, these teachings often seem to come more in the form of philosophy than in practical tools.”
Are you really talking about the Fellowship of Friends? It couldn’t fit better, could it?
“It certainly would be blissful to think there is no more work left to do, but it does seem naive. A system that does not include the idea of denying force and the need for effort does not correspond with my own observations. It is interesting to see that the Sufis, the Philokalia, the Hindus, the Tibetans, and most of the other great traditions are based on the need for discipline and effort. I agree is a refreshing change to recognize that one already has an eternal, unchanging soul, and that nothing more is needed to attain it, but it is not the whole picture”
Is it you or I who is talking? What harmony in our thinking!.
You say: “Is the independence that is extolled so often in this blog possible only by leaving the Fellowship, or is it possible to be independent within the Fellowship?”
Would you please expand on how it is possible to be independent within the Fellowship? Do you mean independent by going out to life and making more money for the Fellowship? Giving up your life to serve the School? Mr. Burton? Or the Divinity? Independent by not having the “sentimental” desire to “Speak” with other students and listen to Mr. Burton, Mr. Haven and Mr. Braverman for the rest of one’s life in their self serving monologue? Independent to transform all the I’s that might question these things? Independent to solve each and all the problems on one’s own because the Fellowship turns its back on them, including Mr. Burton, Mr. Haven, Mr. Braverman, all the inner circle and the outer circle too? For thirty three years? Independent to watch the disorientation of the Fellowship Children, those that haven’t joined as much as those that have joined? Independent to look at the lack of vision in the education of the children in the Lewis Carroll, Mr. Burton, Mr. Haven, Mr. Braverman and all the rest of us? Or is it better for us not to be all that independent because after all we’re barely men number four, the lower self, the king of Clubs, sleep, unconscious, sleep men and women, (who only count, and only for practical matters, if they start acting like men), and yet, we’re still the lucky, chosen ones?
You say: “It may seem odd to some, but I feel that with each year, I am learning to be more independent of opinions, approval, role, position, emotional states, health, teacher.”
Are you going to stop there? Why don’t you just keep going? “Wife, family values, morality, people in general, other people’s ‘I’s, community, external consideration, life………..wow! Just you and the Fellowship, “consciousness without functions”
And you continue: “At the same time, this does not mean I want to ignore all the remarkable third forces available to me. Here, freedom is the freedom to choose. Strangely, it is actually possible to be a Fellowship student and to grow in independence—that is, in independence from one’s own ‘I’s. Any other independence is just a pose.”
Repeat please: “independence from one’s own ‘I’s. Any other independence is just a pose.”
“Independence from one’s own ‘I’s?” So that one can follow “quietly”, Mr. Burton, Mr. Haven and Mr. Braverman for the rest of one’s independent life?
And “Any other independence is just a pose”? Are you really that independent from your ‘I’s when you so solidly support this kind of Teacher and this kind of School? Or are you someone in the inner circle needing to be supported too? Is it too difficult to let go of your role and become a simple human being in the big wide world? Has not all the work you’ve done on yourself prepared you enough for life, life, LIFE? Do you need a small community of addicts to keep your self image going, disguised with the motto of “do your duty until the end, go the whole hog including the postage?” even if it is to HELL? Or do you really think all the palm trees are enough to disguise the Hell inside the Galleria and all around Oregon House, including yours?
You do talk a great deal but we might as well finish.
You say: “I actually think Robert is relieved when we free ourselves from our dependency on him, but as usual, he is not telling us this until we get there.”
Do you mean that Robert is relieved from our dependency on him when we don’t question him and limit ourselves to supporting him unconditionally? “but as usual, he is not telling us this until we get there” Well, of course he’s not telling us this, we have you to tell it to us, right, haven’t you always been there to tell us how to understand Robert, a man number eight flying so high above us in “consciousness without functions”?
And you continue: “Again, this does not mean leaving the school, the exercises, the disciplines, and the third forces that keep us focused on the work, but leaving the imaginary ‘I’s that imprison us. This is the true escape. Any other escape is just cosmetic”
You couldn’t be more clear but some may need the “keys”: Of course this does not mean leaving the school and allowing our cosmetic set up to fall apart.
.You continue: “A question is then, have we as students developed enough strength and will to go out and do it on our own?”
Have we developed enough strength and will to be inside and do it on our own?
You say: “The answer is probably yes, and if the school were to fail, I am sure that most of the students would sincerely continue their work wherever they found themselves. We are well prepared. Just ask John Wheeler!”
Maybe because if we ask you, you would innocently say:
“Why would we not make use of the only conscious school we know?”
You continue: “I find it hopeful that those who have left are finding their way outside the school, just as I hope they do not find it impossible that some of us are still gaining from the school and choose to stay. There is nothing in the work of self-remembering that is meant to separate people; it is meant to bring us together. (Remember Heraclites, “They that are awake share one world in common, but of the sleeping each turns aside to a world of his own.”) There is no exclusivity in our position. It is more, as Robert said, that we are “equally beggars.”
You couldn’t contradict yourself better. Do you always live in this inner struggle? Is that why you so cleanly separate into two?
You say: “Are there many things I don’t understand in the Fellowship or wish could be different? Yes–and some of them haven’t even been mentioned in this blog!”
Nor would you tell them would you? There’s still so much to hide even though we talk so much.
Now I’ll just call you F. for Friend.
F: “Is there any place on this planet free of injustice and contradictions? Nothing yet that I have found.”
So you actually admit that the Fellowship is not free of injustice and contradictions although it is the last conscious school on the planet with the last conscious teacher? Are you loosing your reasoning?
F: Are there better opportunities for concentrated spiritual work somewhere else? There may be, but I have not encountered any, and fate has brought me here”.
Was it really “fate”? Were you already a man free of the law of accident when you joined? Did you not have the opportunity to choose? Why did you really choose to support Mr. Burton so unconditionally?
F: “The school is full of disturbing contradictions that are impossible to resolve”
“Impossible to resolve” By whom? By you or by the rest of us? Not even by the only conscious being on the planet, his second conscious being Mr. Haven or his promise to become conscious being Mr. Braverman?. Or are you really saying please I beg you don’t try to resolve the contradictions of the school because they are too disturbing?
F: “Everything everybody has said here is on some level true, just not true enough to displace the highest truth, which lies beyond the duality of good and bad (where I would like to meet some of you very dualistic non-dualists!)”
Just not true enough? How much more do you need?
To displace the highest truth? That it is all the cheapest make up one could have come across?
Beyond the good and the bad? So that it starts looking fairly normal?
Where you would like to meet some of us? To give us a good beating?
F: “And where did all this morality come from anyway? I thought we were the products of the sexual revolution. How much do we actually know about sex? I have been surprised to see the witchhunt for R for his alleged sexual life. Maybe the family values people are having an effect!”
And where did you leave all this morality my friend? In consciousness without functions?
I thought we were the products of the sexual revolution? So everything and anything is allowed in the last conscious school on Planet Earth? Prostitution, porno, infra-sex?
How much do we actually know about sex? Judging by this blog, we know quite a bit but don’t you think the last conscious teacher on planet earth would have given a direction on the subject if he had one?
”I have been surprised to see the witchhunt for R for his alleged sexual life. Maybe the family values people are having an effect!” And you’ll act even more surprised when the witchhunt comes your way from the family values people which you never seemed to have, since you gave up your life to serve the divinity within………You? Or Mr. Burton?
F: “I won’t stick up for him or for his lovers, but I will say it is a more complex issue than can be dealt with here”. So where would you like us to deal with it? In the innumerable channels the FOF has for us to communicate? Or in bed?
F: “I know some of them well, and their motives are mixed, and include the wish to be near R and to learn from him, and for whatever reason they decide to stay, and that is why it remains a paradox.”
Might it be the paradox of young men who believed all the adults supporting Robert couldn’t be so wrong and it wasn’t so bad after all to get a blow job? Barbie clothes and barbie life and if that felt bad, wasn’t it easy to buffer it when two thousand other adults were doing so, so blatantly?
F: “I can state from my experiences that the Fellowship is a conscious school, with a conscious teacher, engaged in a conscious experiment. It is not without fault, but it shows us what is possible when many people work together for many years towards the same invisible aim”.
INVISIBLE INDEED!
F: “It is not surprising that such a place would create so many explosions!”
Who are you trying to kid? Every explosion has been quietly dealt with as you later suggest us to do and made to look very small and insignificant so that those of us who keep joining don’t realize how bad it is until seventeen or thirty years later.
F: “If I and others stay in the school it is not because we think there are no possibilities outside, but because we are interested and committed to being part of this conscious experiment – a seemingly unusual thing on earth. A school requires special conditions and – I think this is what bothers people so much – more laws, rather than less, including the willingness to put one’s will under the will of another. Most of all it requires a conscious teacher at the heart of it. RB is such, and continues to surprise and challenge and love and enrage us “beyond thought.”
“Beyond thought” so please don’t think so that you can keep buffering it all? Or just “consciousness without functions”?
F: “He keeps the school going against all the odds. I am paying him for this, and he has kept his part of the bargain much better than I have kept mine. This cannot be proved, but only felt.”
He keeps the school going against all the odds? Or do you and us with our ineffable unconsciousness keep it going against all the odds?
“I am paying him for this, and he has kept his part of the bargain much better than I have kept mine”
Really? Or is he paying you for this and you have kept your part of the bargain much better than he has kept his?
F: “We have been warned abundantly against group-think in this blog, but it goes both ways. The majority of the posters seem to harbor considerable ill will to the Fellowship, and are reluctant to allow for it to be anything other than a cult, and its members, at best, deluded. People have always been unhappy with the Fellowship and always have left.”
And been thrown out for the most ridiculous issues, forbidden to talk to, hurt when possible in not allowing other students to support them renting their house or buying their property, etc, etc, etc. keep reading the blog.
F: “There are over 10,000 of them by now”
The 10,000 idiots that Robert always mentions right? You got that one too? It’s not so difficult once one starts looking at Robert’s and Mr. Haven’s subliminal use of language. Mr. Braverman is still very young but if he stays there for a few more weeks he’ll separate into who knows how many different people just like Mr. Burton and Mr. Haven.
F. “We have just never seen so many in one place at one time, so that it suddenly seems like a tsunami of opposition”
A breathe from hell?.
F: “I would also like to suggest to Medusa, Mole, Walls Have Ears, and some of the others who no longer belong in the Fellowship, but are still in it, to quietly go”
Yes, Please just move out because we are too crystallized to reflect on anything anyone says and attempt to change or evolve in any other direction that does not keep Mr. Burton, Mr. Haven and Mr. Braverman, as the Absolute Trinity of the Last Conscious School on planet earth.
F: “It is fine to be disappointed and to voice your frustrations, and absolutely fine to leave the school and check out the alternatives, but it is not useful to go out in such a blaze of negativity. Your revenge will probably not do much harm to the Fellowship, but may very likely may do harm to yourselves.”
When the Fellowship and its lawyers come out chasing us for yelling out at you how much you’re living in the prehistoric cave?
Just keep instructing us like this so that you can quietly burn in hell; With Friends like you, who needs enemies? You make it extremely difficult to hold to the Aim of ever working to make the Fellowship a decent place for normal human beings to struggle for the development of more conscious individuals and communities but it is precisely because you, other less twisted people than you and my daughter are there, that I will continue to question you until you break apart or change the structure from feet to higher centers. We all have our very personal reasons don’t we? Subjective or objective principles.
April 1, 2007 at 10:17 am
Ah, such serendipity to have post #103 follow post #102
April 1, 2007 at 10:30 am
Inmate#44 (107); Thanks for the posting. This makes perfect sense to me, and I believe I have the key to ‘duck’ – which is ‘fuck’ (sorry Sheik but can you make an exception?). The teacher (a God) gets home after a hard days work – interpreting ‘signs’, to find the things that the students do for him (his sex life) make him feel alright, connected with higher centres!
Surely, Inmate, this IS a complete and utter joke???
April 1, 2007 at 11:00 am
#98 ‘I see’ said the blind man, thanks for sharing your obviously genuine attempts at examining what is before you. I am sure you will choose what is best for you at the right time. Just a couple of thoughts about behaviour; if any of us could ‘get away’ with any kind of behaviour, without any repercussions whatsoever, and had many people at our beck and call, I wonder to what extremes we would go? It has nothing to do with consciousness, or maybe it does, if one was conscious perhaps one would have a conscience that would mediate one’s behaviour. It is a matter of what the motivating factor is. I have seen many students behave in the most atrocious and cruel ways, lying, cheating and betraying those both in and out of the FOF. I also did and considered some things that I now regret. How does this come about? Because we are motivated by our desire to awaken, and conform to the norms of the school, and if our conscience pricks us, bring in work I’s that justify our actions, using the FOF ideas to let ourselves off the hook. A useful experience in retrospect; now I know better what conscience is, and trust that ‘small inner voice’ more than anything else.
April 1, 2007 at 11:03 am
Inmate #44 (107)
Good one, I just realized it is APRIL FOOL’S DAY!
April 1, 2007 at 1:26 pm
somebody said that laughing is good for the innards. Some of you people are so witty it’s funny!
April 1, 2007 at 2:00 pm
To Myself
“Some of us “ex-students” are trying very hard not to judge the current members for their belief system and just live our new found freedom. Then an incident like I mentioned happens and something inside screams ” what is WRONG with you people?!!!”
One thing that is more terrifying than the recent revelations about the internal goings on of our school, and yes, there are some of us who were not aware, is the negativity directed at us from former students.
Were we not comrades in arms, fighting the good fight?
Show us compassion, show us your light, show us your new found joy. Show us that is not really the only game in town.
We are watching.
Merci pour tous
April 1, 2007 at 3:02 pm
Dear all,
Never tired of observing the changes in this blog and myself!.
New substancial wave of posts coming from current FOF members willing to acknowledge a need to make their points …
What it takes: forget about the suggestions (Girard’s advises),
Abraham Goldman forgot, after opening the door,
to intentionnally close it behind him.
Through the door, many more now… Listen!
Beautiful, interesting and lovely and precious appearences.
Any need to agree to pay tribute ?
To Lust for life, post 5/95, I see, post 5/96 and surely many more if not all:
“the easy way” (over eating) and “lasy part” or “bad habits” versus, recieving suggestions, exercises and tasks to overcome them:
I prolong the “eating” theme, as a metaphore:
A goup of spychologists made an experiment on childreen suffering from nutrition disorder
(Currently one of the most obvious health problem in rich societies!). In this case, boulimic tendencies (the other side of the madal being anoraxia).
A house (not their ‘home’) where this unbalanced kids would be living for while, offered, 24 hours a day, a rich open table, full of food of any sort, with free access to it, without any reaction from the outside.
As often as they wanted/needed, for how much they could eat/devore, they were left “free”.
The first days, the kids would reach the feeding area, over and over, at any time, most “absurd” hours included.
Apparently, no apparatus in their body was able to send messages of satisfaction. They kept over-eating…
Surprise? Surprise!
After a while, the behaviour of this kids changed.
The forever permanence of the ressources (in this case, food), the absence of reaction from the adults (in this case, stating what is right and what is wrong) changed the nature of their relation to their needs.
The compulsive addiction (in this case, to food) not being necessary any longer, balance could be durably observed.
Possible parallele? Food included…
Francis Petrach, father the “humanism’ voiced his time: ok, I know about the SuperMan, he is everywhere present in the Greeks words (Plato, Socrates, Epictetus, etc…) and statues (Phidias, Polycletus, Praxiteles, Lysippos, etc…) .
But, wait a minute, I have a little problem here! I am who I am!
“Numerous are the interests plunging me into incertainty and embarrasment. What I used to like, I do not like it any more; I lie, I still like it but less; I lied again: I still like it but more sadly, with nore shame. Yes, I did tell the truth. It is so: I like what I would like not to like, what I would desire hating; still I love, in spite of myself, forced, in distress and mourning, and I experience over myself this famous line: “I will hate you if I can; others, I will like you against my will.”
The “famous line” is from Ovidius.
The words from Petrarch are from a letter he wrote to his brother, after they climbed Mont Ventoux, April 26th, 1336.
Good luck, with trust…
April 1, 2007 at 5:20 pm
The post keep appearing fast!!!!!
To Yesri Baba, post 5/117:
On Christ coming back and witnessing various distortions.
Long time ago,in the 13th Century, a young man undressed himself in public, gave back all his possessions to his wealty father and departed from home:
His name was Francis, he was born in Assisi.
The departure was easy even if it included a poignant question: How can you tell those who love you that they do not love you?
Why this scandal ? Francis felt Christ’s teaching was distorted!
He was “guided” from inside to come back to the truth.
As “his” form, he went talking to birds, trees, and men, and trusted to leave avoiding accumulating any possession of any kind, on God’s light and generosity through brotherwood.
He wrote ” Sun Brother’s Chant”.
celebrating “sister water”, “brother fire”, “sister moon”.
When I told one of my “life” friends about him they said:
– Sure he was nuts!
For its undiniable poetical value as well as mystical insight, this text is, now days, still recorded on CD, perfomed on stages and played n radios by well know singers of this time…
He became important, which he did not ask for but used the situation to talk to popes and authorities while actively acting against the powerfully organised system. The reaction was fast and effective: Let’s berry him with honour!
Short, very short after his death, the official Church gathered the right funds, built a church above his dead body and asked Giotto, among others, to decorate it with frescoes!
He, who was so ferociously agains buildings and institutions was berried twice, fisrt in wood (Holly-wood?), then in stone!
Christ saw the distortion/recuperation of his work during his life, Francis too… Who not ?No need to come back!
What can we do ? Maybe we can sing…
The story says that the day of his death, Francis was singing. The pain experienced by his body would not keep him from singing. Singing…
An authority from the Christian institution blamed him for such unsain behaviour.
Francis did not stop singing, till his last breath!
To “Pointing the Issues”, post 121:
“Consciousness without functions”. It’s a while I am dreaming of getting free from the “weight of the body”. I might even have entered the Scholl with this aim…
I get your point thought and you are very sharp in questioning the issues.Thanks!
To “inner piece”, post 114:
Your name is as funny as it can be, so you are… On many aspects, right to the point to challenge and awaken anyone, even a dead parrot!.
Dead parrot?
Yes, your post reminded me of the sketch “The dead parrot” (Monthy Pyton)
– “This parrot is bloody dead!”
– “No, it’s resting!”.
– “All right, then let’s wake him up then!”.
Fond of presence!
April 1, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Friend /97
Thank you for your thoughts. It stimulated the following thoughts in me.
First, I have thought like you it would be best that those who write as current students that are really against the FOF, not pondering or questioning, but those who are extremely angry or those who seem to think everything is just ridiculous – should just go ahead and leave. It doesn’t seem like it is doing them in any good to stay. Perhaps there are reasons we don’t know about that prevent them from leaving, such as a very committed spouse, a visa issue, or economic dependence of some sort. To those who are in a situation like this, be careful to avoid poisoning yourself. There are many beautiful things that you can surround yourself with while you wait to allow your external situation to be aligned with your internal situation. Also, I have spoken to some people who feel they can’t leave for reasons that were not all that convincing. Be careful to not compromise yourselves too much. Too many separate compartments for too long does not seem to bring good results.
I thought it was also an accurate point that the majority of the people who are posting bear considerably ill will to the FOF. Even though I’ve left, I wouldn’t describe myself like that. I do think it is a cult. I thought that for many years while I was in the Fellowship and realized that if you read definitions of a cult that the Fellowship does fit many of the criteria. I didn’t see a conflict with it ALSO being a conscious school. For example, the exercise to avoid contact with former students is one of the examples that is usually cited when describing the FOF as a cult.
I want to affirm to you that I do not think it is impossible that those that stay are not gaining. I would have really liked it if it had been that way for me, but it was not. Before I left I went to meetings regularly and found the information more and more confusing and not helpful. The information didn’t hurt me but it didn’t help me. It was like listening to one koan after another. Quotation (which was often very inspiring) – angle (which was …. ). This was the response from the I’s here. Are you going to meetings regularly? Anyway, some told me to just not go to meetings, but that didn’t make a lot of sense.
And to end with a quote from Gandhi. “Be the change you would like to see in the world.”
April 1, 2007 at 5:44 pm
Hey, here is a nice quote:
Do not get lost in analysis. Your true nature is open and shining in plain view.
If something comes up and needs to be looked at in order to let it go, that will happen. If not, just remain as you are.
Do not get onto the track that there is more work to do beyond being what you already are.
If you see a trap, do not step into it. You do not need to analyze the trap. The main thing is to see what you already are.
We all sure could use some more of these good attitudes, Thanks John Wheeler! and Thanks No Person!
Brought to you by Sure Thing!
April 1, 2007 at 6:07 pm
To inner piece, post #114
Great! Your post made me laugh to death!
After reading the blog, I have to say that most of the posts seem to be describing an International Ping-Pong Competition: FOF versus Advaita. Could it be possible for you guys, on both sides, to relax and enjoy whatever makes you feel more happy-awake-alive?
After leaving the FOF, it feels quite relaxing just to be an ordinary guy, living my own life, not playing any “role’, not having to spread the word, or attract new students, etc, etc.
Do I have to convince other people about the wonderful ideas I found in Advaita? NO, THANKS GOD. I’m just enjoying my life as it is.
Last famous words: More humor, more humor!
April 1, 2007 at 6:08 pm
Hey, Howard, sorry I lashed at you in #112. It was really not necessary. I came home from a party last night where I had a little too much to drink, and here’s your post… I couldn’t help it. There is quite some Martial in my machine, add some alcohol and a full moon – and there you have it. Don’t take it personally, buddy, and please keep posting, OK? Peace.
April 1, 2007 at 6:16 pm
Hello all, in and out… There have been several voices lately that want to make this blog into a “fight who’s right” – either in, and feeling attacked by those outside, or the other way around.
As far as I’m concerned, that’s really, really not what it’s all about. I’ve heard a couple of stories recently from people who decide to stay in the Fellowship in spite of knowing all that’s wrong with it. Also the letter from A Friend (5/97) was beautifully and sincerely written. He seems to me one example of a Fellowship student at his best. What I’ve found that these people who are staying in spite of the dirt, have in common, is a willingness to live with all the contradictions, even needing them and making them a part of the work on themselves. And the other thing is that they take a certain personal responsibility for their own work and do have an independence within the institution. For them the school works – not because they are sheep (although there are plenty of sheep) – but because they feel that with the school they’ve found a connection with something quite special and unique, and should hold on to what’s real despite numerous distractions, and should _make_ it work. This requires some mental gymnstics that I’m no longer willing to do, as I believe that it makes life unnecessarily complicated, but I respect these people’s decision. Perhaps they are the ones who will eventually take responsibility for transforming the Fellowship into a more inclusive, less dogma-bound and less self-contained entity, rather than simply wash their hands and walk away like some of us. Who knows.
At any rate, they don’t need “saving”. Let’s recognize proselytizing whether it’s coming from within or without the Fellowship. I find sincere students a welcome addition to the blog to keep the picture of the situation from becoming lopsided. If some of those people on the outside really want to help, they might offer support to any students who are in and want out but for whatever reason feel they can’t leave. That would be a community effort and external consideration. But I don’t believe in efforts to actively “convert” people. As former students, we can simply offer up our experience and if there are some who have ears to hear, they will hear.
April 1, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Re: the New Teachings in post no. 107: Alas, the joke is on us!
April 1, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Howard Carter in 5/103: “Those in the inner circle do not leave the school, so they have either died in the school or are still members. All of the coming and going takes place from the outer circle.”
This is an amusing example of the kind of “circular” reasoning that underlies cultish thinking (if it can be called thinking). Those in the Inner Circle are, by definition, those that do not leave the school. Therefore, if one leaves the school, one cannot have been in the Inner Circle.
In fact, members of the Inner Circle have left (Miles Barth, for one).
April 1, 2007 at 7:19 pm
Dear Rita Penfold (no. 83),
Thank you for welcoming me back to this discussion. Every now and again I drop in for a perusal of what is transpiring here. And with some regularity I see comments to the effect that “nobody has awakened in the Fellowship of Friends.”
As I noted in my post at page 3 no. 163, I completed the alchemical Work of transmutation of the base into the fine as taught by Robert Burton by example some fifteen years ago. I must assume that there are others out there who have done the same. Or are all maintaining a noble silence? Surely now is the time to speak up to defend the reputation of our Teacher.
I am also disappointed so see that the virus of so-called “non-dual teachings” or “advaita” has infected this community. Those who are honest with themselves know that advaita is a mere palliative for wimps. The Work takes work, it is as simple as that; and in this Work it is every man for himself.
Nihil curo de ista tua stulta superstitione
April 1, 2007 at 8:12 pm
Howard Carter (#70) wrote:
“I then hit the submit button and the page froze. I became somewhat agitated that I could not send the response I was quite pleased with and that I might even my lose it in cyber space. I got up from the computer and did a small chore, came back to the frozen page, refreshed it, deleted the response and composed the one you are now reading. Was the frozen page an “accident”, or by “chance”?. All I will say is that in the interim I saw a different approach; one that is more in keeping with my present understandings.”
I would like to contrast this with this passage from the Wikipedia citation (Veronicapoe #111):
“The influential theorist of human emotion, Silvan Tompkins, has written that “the learned inner restraint on any affect in competition with the wish to express the original affect. . . constitutes [a] stimulus to shame.” E.K. Sedgwick, A. Frank, and I.E. Alexander, Shame and Its Sisters: A Silvan Tompkins Reader (Duke Univ. Press, 1995) at p. 162. As a matter of Fellowship culture, the competition between these two desires in individuals is deliberately incited and intensified by a variety of specific and identifiable techniques.”
One of the main reasons I left the FOF was my overwhelming sense of guilt at the gulf between who I felt I was and the self I felt I “should” be. When I left, that great pressure to conform lifted like a dark, great weight.
Another point. I remember early on being filled with gratitude at my luck at finding the one true school on earth. In the next moment, I was asking myself, “Isn’t this what every believer of a religion, school, or way thinks — that they are on the only true way?” It took some fancy footwork from the work I’s to tamp that question down, but I still remember that moment 25 years later.
April 1, 2007 at 8:34 pm
A few observations for poster of #97:
“I am a member of the Fellowship, and like you I have been reading with an open mind everything being posted here, letting it enter and agitate my being, even to the point of leaving the school if that is where it leads. It is disturbing, but I do not want to “crystallize in outdated points of view or close my eyes to what may be true.”
Listen to your conscience. It is the too-often silent voice of truth.
“I am grateful that the school is entirely organized–down to the last salt shaker—with the aim of creating consciousness in its participants, and that almost all its members share that aim. I appreciate the non-sentimental approach to effort and the transformation of suffering. I appreciate the attempt to avoid the expression of negativity. I appreciate its focus, its freedom from distractions and the law of accident. Others seem to find this limiting, but for myself, it is essential.”
Routines create a false feeling of comfort and safety. It’s easy to let another tell you what art, music and culture are good. Where is the effort in this?
“It certainly would be blissful to think there is no more work left to do, but it does seem naive. A system that does not include the idea of denying force and the need for effort does not correspond with my own observations.”
Once you understand and have verified the purpose of denying-force, you will never be lacking denying-force in your life–where ever you are. It goes beyond any system.
“I actually think Robert is relieved when we free ourselves from our dependency on him, but as usual, he is not telling us this until we get there.”
He is relieved because he does not really care about or want to be bothered by students that are not of personal value to him.
“A question is then, have we as students developed enough strength and will to go out and do it on our own? The answer is probably yes, and if the school were to fail, I am sure that most of the students would sincerely continue their work wherever they found themselves.”
When you finally realize the school HAS failed, you may no longer have the strength to “do it on your own”.
“There is no exclusivity in our position. It is more, as Robert said, that we are “equally beggars.”
I believe Jesus Christ first said something to that effect.
“And where did all this morality come from anyway? I thought we were the products of the sexual revolution. How much do we actually know about sex? I have been surprised to see the witchhunt for R for his alleged sexual life. Maybe the family values people are having an effect!”
You obviously have never been forced by another to have sex against your will and desire.
“I would also like to suggest to Medusa, Mole, Walls Have Ears, and some of the others who no longer belong in the Fellowship, but are still in it, to quietly go. It is fine to be disappointed and to voice your frustrations, and absolutely fine to leave the school and check out the alternatives, but it is not useful to go out in such a blaze of negativity. Your revenge will probably not do much harm to the Fellowship, but may very likely may do harm to yourselves.”
The best advise in your entire post.
April 1, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Dear Friend,
Thank you so much for answering from the FOF side. I hope you will not stop if your thoughts are challenged by those that will not agree. And if I offer an alternative viewpoint, I hope you will understand that it is done with respect, and the desire to keep the dialog going.
I have read every line of your post several times and I have been warmed by your scale and relativity. We need to hear you so please continue to post.
I could respond in many ways but looking at what keeps me on the fence, I choose to offer my I’s and opinions as they are, open for comment.
There are many scales. If the work is practical we need to apply it to improving our lives and improving the community. I have always appreciated this aspect of the school and guidance in this area from our teacher. I chose not to be a monk.
What I am about to say may come across as negative and pompous. I love the school and these observations are born out of that love. Please do not cast off what I say as a negative emotion. There is much that is great about Isis but in this moment, and in this forum, I wish to focus on the extra weight that we carry around.
The sex is not the issue for me. Without going into detail, it is the abuse of power, misuse of resources, continual excesses, stifling of open discussion, lack of compassion for the other side of the fence, encouragement of borderline ethics, poor judgment, unreasonable interpretations of events, and use of fear and unfounded promises to control others that are at issue. It is not the money. It is not on that scale. It is about what we support. It is about conscience.
Sex is a problem only to the extent that it relates to the other issues, hurts the school , hurts students and hurts RB. The issues listed may be part of the teaching, may be part of our evolution, part of the divine play. I understand that possibility, but I think it is time to take a serious, open look at whether or not these issues can be addressed to the benefit of the school. Perhaps we are too quick to accept that these things cannot be changed. Some of us on the fence are looking for some hope.
I do not expect Robert or the school to be perfect. I can live with disturbing contradictions and have for a long time. It is harder for me to live with the acceptance, justification and even enforcement, of these contradictions from our own leadership.
It is becoming harder for me to support the excesses that do not seem to relate to work. If I thought the leadership was effectively dealing with these disturbing contradictions then I could climb down from the fence and join in.
We all want to find the “divinity within”. Did Robert, Collin or Ouspensky become conscious before leaving their teacher? No one can be sure, but I certainly hear more about the evolution of those that left their teacher than I do about those that stayed until death.
We have been told that we must give up our will. I agree in concept and respect those that take this approach. But we have done this for a long time now. Is there a time when we can question the boundaries of this concept? How long is this idea useful? Is it useful if it supports weaknesses in the leader? Is blind giving up of will really appropriate for an evolving being forever, or at some point does too much giving up block moving to the next level. Is it possible that too much giving up of will could lead to the eventual collapse of the Fellowship and worse, the collapse of our own being? I have some reason to believe that it can destroy the true seeker within.
Is it possible that the divine play is calling for someone that has the strength to deal with some of the “disturbing contradictions” and that their evolution is held hostage until they can find the love, strength, courage and independence to try? Perhaps this is what the sequence is really about – finding that place where we are loving enough, confident enough, perceptive enough and reckless enough to improve the organization. In my mind, this kind of courage is the ideal result of true presence. Love is not easy.
Perhaps this explains some of my reasons for riding the fence. I question whether supporting the status quo does me or anyone else any real good. Am I caught up in morality? Am I missing the true school? Am I misusing my good luck? Am I looking for an excuse to quit working? Am I naïve to think I can jump into life and start clean? Or is it just time for me to fall off the tree? Maybe. But from my perspective up here on the fence, I truly think it would be healthy for the fellowship to quit sweeping issues under the rug. 20-30 years is a long time to support “disturbing contradictions” that we have trouble accepting even after all the beautiful angles with scale. Some contradictions are necessary for our evolution. Are they all? Can we openly address this? What a beautiful challenge. This is our play. How we address these issues will affect the health of the school.
I look forward to comments.
Fence Rider.
April 1, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Dear Friend (97)
It is interesting that your post deals only with your own personal issues and positions without seriously addressing many of the questions being asked here. Could we attempt to look at them closely?
Is Mr. Burton’s personal life an affirmation of himself as an individual?
Is Mr. Burton’s personal life an affirmation of human values, a community per se? And if not, why this bridge? This petrifying void?
Is Mr. Burton’s public life or teaching an affirmation of himself as an individual or is he also affirming his student’s individuality and possibilities?
How does Mr. Burton actually support conscious development in his students?
Do Mr. Burton’s direct contacts with students depend on wether he likes them or not?
The amount of money they give him? The status they bring him? The amount of self will that they are willing to give up to him?
Have any of Mr. Burton’s predictions become true?
Could the Fall of California in 1998 and the following World War III initiated by China that Mr. Burton predicted, not be a great tool to make people join the club of the few chosen ones who would survive the holocaust, live a “lush” life while it was possible and still hold to their own intrinsic programming?
How much does this lush life really separate itself from the King of Clubs? (Instinctive centre?)
Is the programming inside the Fellowship essentially based on the stereo type of American culture? That is, is the School Mr. Burton has developed a microcosmic image of the macrocosmic American community in which he grew up without any significant, conscious transformation?
Are not the best students expected to live under those same conditionings such as:
Work, work, work even if you have no idea of how you might enjoy the money.
Respond for yourself and only for yourself.
There are no communities, just individuals.
Get rid of anyone who is not useful including children, old people or sick people.
Do nothing that is not of practical use.
Work all week to make money and all weekend to put yourself in good householder so that you can go and make more money.
If it’s not money what you’re making, replace power inside the school for money, power as the privilege to consider yourself inside the inner circle, lead meetings, photograph other students and neglect them if you don’t like them?
Is this serious work on the emotional centre and second line of work?
Is it not an interesting contrast that while students are expected to live this totally committed kind of life, the teacher actually:
Works and enjoys the money
Responds for himself and the people around him if he likes them.
Has never addressed the issue of a community with equal guarantees for everyone inside.
Gotten rid of the children, the old people and the sick people by never establishing serious channels to deal with them. Gotten rid of the women that suffered his relationships with their husband and questioned them, gotten rid of the men who chose to continue their life with their wives, at least in as much as they did not continue to go to bed with him by not giving them any role in the community?
Done nothing that does not practically support him personally more than the community.
Been the only decision maker of what is done with the money
Been the only decision maker of who actively deploys second “institutionalized” line.
Prevented a serious development of ‘intentional’ second line amongst students by prohibiting forums and publications, open meetings and discussion.
Does this promote work on the development of the King of Hearts? The Intellectual aspect of the emotional centre or does it stifle it?
If The Teacher himself has not been able to separate himself from his own programming and established a more “universal” or “conscious” community, what is it that we’re supposed to see that shows us that he is indeed a conscious being?
Is it not interesting that in thirty three years, he has not recognized one being as conscious as himself? And the one he predicted would become conscious, Mr. Haven, is still honest enough to say that he is sleep most of the time? And if any reach levels of awakening they are thrown out because they’ve allowed their lower self to go too far into vanity and imagination? If The Teacher has this much fear of being over thrown by other students in his school, is this really as conscious a teacher as you, my friend, state that he is?
If the teacher leads his life and school with the core of his subjectivity, how can we see that he has reached objective levels of awakening?
Every student has reached different experiences of awakening according to his effort in tune with the school’s mold. Has any one of them had the opportunity to bring those experiences back to the whole or have they been restricted to allow Mr. Haven and Mr. Braverman to develop, not themselves, but their unquestioned commitment to Mr. Burton, influence C and the crystallized Fellowship of Friends?
Does the behavior of Mr. Burton and Mr. Haven, Mr. Braverman and most of those in the inner circle with positions of leadership not carry a very strange duality? A duality that establishes that they can address the community en mass but never have time to address individuals?
In Mr. Burton’s play, does he not address all his student’s consistently and yet 75% of them never in particular? I mean, address, talk to, help, encourage, share, and not just send them chocolate hearts and smiles?
Has Mr. Burton seriously addressed any of his inner circle students for their inner development or has he simply allowed them to take roles within the Fellowship that enhanced the possibilities of their instinctive life, acquiring jobs that could help them support themselves? With the result that there is a considerable inner circle needing the money more than inner development?
What has Mr. Burton done to avoid the division into two people of the students in his inner circle, that is, what efforts has he made to avoid the development of two personalities within himself and his students in the inner circle, one that supports the Fellowship and the pursuit of consciousness and another that continues living the same old life with all its unquestioned passions? That is how has he avoided the rampant development of “Consciousness without functions?”
And does this “Consciousness without functions” not fit perfectly well into the present structure of the school, in which students are expected to support the teacher unconditionally without developing objective institutions that can channel the interaction between themselves and the teacher? External consideration and the second line of work?
Is the one sidedness structure of the Fellowship, in which EVERYTHING goes to Robert and nothing but subjectivity comes back from him, the epitomy of cult behavior?
And is not the horror of cult behavior the simple fact that individuals neglect to objectively assume responsibility for themselves and others benefiting only the teacher involved and his tight inner circle?
April 1, 2007 at 9:24 pm
To Golen Fleece:
Thanks for your post.
On the Advaita, the point is they do not call it “work” but “Natural State”.
Remark: anything but English, in this blog at least, is non-sharing happening.
You are free, hopefully, to quote anyone in any language you like (for the moderator to judge) but be kind enough to provide a translation to make it a “message” for all the readers. Politness oblige!
To us all, enjoy!
April 1, 2007 at 9:40 pm
To: Yesri Baba, #117
I appreciated the honesty & truth of your posting; those are two things we are all looking for on the blog is it not?
April 1, 2007 at 9:51 pm
I just joined the school and I am already violating my “vow” not to enter this forum for three months. I guess it is not the last weakness I will find in myself.
I find the pressure some of the authors here are trying to put on members to leave the school, disrespectful.
Rita, I do not know you, so I can only rely upon what you wrote here and how I perceive it.
Your “crusade” against the teacher looks to me quite childish, as if it is coming from a spoiled little girl who would not stop untill she gets what she wants.
You have left the school? Fine, I respect your decision, you have a full stomach against the teacher? Fine, I understand that, but your constant attempts to pull others out of the school are in my eyes quite petty.
So far after attending two center meetings, and two very good personal meetings with students, I found that I like being in this school.
The teacher’s sexual life is none of my business and with all the respect I do not need any moral lectures about neglecting the “poor” guys who are involved with it. They are responsible for their own actions and if they do not like it they can stop doing it.
I have just watched a video of a meeting led by the teacher and it had a refined energy that created a clean atmosphere for me to be present to myself. In fact I was surprised that such impact can pass through a video.
I guess I can say that this is what I came for and right now I am planning to stay as long as I keep on getting that energy and as long as I can use it to develop my consciousness.
It is already quite clear to me that I have a long way to go and this is just the beginning.
John
April 1, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Ithaca
When you set out for Ithaka
ask that your way be long,
full of adventure, full of instruction.
The Laistrygonians and the Cyclops,
angry Poseidon – do not fear them:
such as these you will never find
as long as your thought is lofty, as long as a rare
emotion touch your spirit and your body.
The Laistrygonians and the Cyclops,
angry Poseidon – you will not meet them
unless you carry them in your soul,
unless your soul raise them up before you.
Ask that your way be long.
At many a Summer dawn to enter
with what gratitude, what joy –
ports seen for the first time;
to stop at Phoenician trading centres,
and to buy good merchandise,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
and sensuous perfumes of every kind,
sensuous perfumes as lavishly as you can;
to visit many Egyptian cities,
to gather stores of knowledge from the learned.
Have Ithaka always in your mind.
Your arrival there is what you are destined for.
But don’t in the least hurry the journey.
Better it last for years,
so that when you reach the island you are old,
rich with all you have gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to give you wealth.
Ithaka gave you a splendid journey.
Without her you would not have set out.
She hasn’t anything else to give you.
And if you find her poor, Ithaka hasn’t deceived you.
So wise you have become, of such experience,
that already you’ll have understood what these Ithakas mean.
Constantine P Cavafy
April 1, 2007 at 10:31 pm
To Exlax 101 of 5/86:
I’ve enjoyed your other posts but:
“Everbody knows only dead fish ‘go with the flow’!”???
Here is a song that EVERY little child knows:
Row, row, row your boat,
Gently DOWN the stream,
Merily, merily, merlily, merlily,
Life is but a dream.
Too bad most of us forgot what it meant as we ‘grew up’.
Some people are living their beautiful dream.
Some people are living a bad dream.
The lucky ones know that they are free to live whatever dream they choose for themselves.
But to continue with your fish analogy:
Do you know what happens to salmon after they finally get all the way upstream
to their spawning grounds? They spawn, and then they DIE. Because they have no
strength left to do anything else.
Since I know I have a choice, I would much rather be a happy rower merily enjoying my life moment by moment, than a dead salmon.
Good Luck to you.
Row, row, row your boat…..
April 1, 2007 at 10:52 pm
I was a student in the FOF for 5 years. I remember the shock that reverberated through the school when Miles Brighton left. According to RB Miles was a Man number 5. Oh my…how is it that a man number 5 could leave the school? These were years of searching and reflection for me.
After leaving the School circa 1985 I had a series of wonderful discussions with Stella Wirk. Stella helped me to understand that the quest we are on which is not really a quest at all is, in the final analysis, independent of the school or the teachings of any enlightened teacher or guru. But wait..were we not the chosen people? No we were not. This is precisely the kind of ‘faith’ that has created such strife and conflict in the world. We are all chosen…chosen for life by an amazing process known as evolution. I do not regret my time in the school. I learned much from my experiences that I carry in my heart today. I sit in judgment of no one and have learned that the toughest love of all is the love of oneself. Once you acheive this milestone then much that was confusing will fall into place. The universe is! it is an immense and ancient enigma and it needs no mystic lables or midieval traditions to celebrate its majesty and awesome beauty.
So we all have access to the greatest book of wisdom ever written…and that is the individual human heart. A great teaching with a real teacher can only point the way. One can stay in the Fellowship or one can leave. It really makes no difference. Follow your heart. Why worship dead saints? The same spirit that impregnated their souls is searching for the bedchamber of your heart. Eventually every bird must take flight on his own.
April 1, 2007 at 11:12 pm
To Abraham Goldman, Fellowship pro bono lawyer and income-parable friend and protector of FOF (read: Vishnu):
If the U.S. Constitution treats freedom of religion and freedom of spaech in an equal and balanced fashion and the Fellowship of Friends is an entity formulated under and in accordance with the principles of that constitution – without conflict or negation, then, tell us, please, post it here on the blog – the open market place for ideas, where is there ‘freedom of religion and freedom of spaech’ in the Fellowship of Friends? Is it in balance? Show it to US.
What despot wants, despot gets.
Here is an April Fool’s joke:
A new religious paradigm has come into existence. Instead of heaven and hell being above and below, they are now side by side and separated by a hedge or fence. Things go fine for awhile and then some of those in hell start getting into heaven. After many do this, it becomes problematic for God. So, God goes out and finds a hole in the hedge or fence. God calls for a meeting with the Devil to address the problem. They discuss, at great length, the issue and the merits, or lack thereof, for the hedge or fence, and that good hedge/fence makes good neighbors, etc. No one from heaven is going through to hell, just those in hell getting into heaven. Devil refuses to take action to help prevent leak into heaven. So God says, ‘If you don’t contribute to helping fix the problem, I’m going to have some lawyers come after you.’ To this, the Devil breaks up laughing almost uncontrolably. When he final stops laughing, God say, ‘What was so funny?’ The Devil replies, ‘Where are you going to find any lawyers in heaven? All the lawyers are in hell with me.’ [Unless, of course, God finds that rare lawyer in heaven that escaped from Hell and is masquerading!]
Questions then also are, Abraham Goldman (and Ass ociates), Fellowship pro bono lawyer and income-parable friend and protector of FOF (read: Vishnu): Are you in heaven or in hell? And. who are you, really? (If not Vishnu?) Please, post answer on this blog. Thank you.
Signed,
Devil’s Advocate?
(I would have this notarized, if I could.)
April 1, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Re: GOlb as Rumi 5#99
Very nice story. However, the man who swallowed the snake while he was asleep need only to be aware of himself and knowledge of an inner change that took place – then placed a finger in very strategic place in his body and this malady would be regurgitated out of him and therefore transform him back to his true self. No need for King, excessive eating, battering, unnecessary suffering, mindlessness, etc. Just minor transformation.
Recognize that this snake, or ‘inner worm eating at you’ (as Gurdjiev might have put it), was not swallowed during sleep, but was always there to begin with for you to wake up to and act on tranforming with strategic fingers placed. This is way of clever man on 4th way, as well as other ways, allways. Try not to sleep too soundly.
Re: Howard Carter 5#103
‘Those in the inner circle do not leave the school, so they have either died in the school or are still members. All of the coming and going takes place from the outer circle.’
Shall I publish here a list of names of those ‘Inner Circle’ friends that have left the school over the years? What percentage of the 10,000+ former members do you think it would be? Shall I start with the 2nd and 3rd students who joined with RB to seek ‘self-remembering?’ They were ‘Inner Circle.’ Where are they now? Inner Circle or not Inner Circle? How do YOU know? The only (forgive the absolute) ‘Inner Circle’ in the Fellowship of Friends is Robert Earl Burton; and don’t YOU ever forget that. When it comes to leaving the Fellowship of Friends and the ‘Inner Circle,’ it is Robert Earl Burton that can never (forgive the absolute) leave. Others are all (forgive the absolute) disposable.
The most important ‘Inner Circle’ friend needed to leave ‘Inner Circle’ is Robert Earl Burden. When is that going to happen, huh?
One enters the Inner Circle (of life) by self-remembering. It is not a place, nor a time, nor a belonging. One gets there by wishing to BE. So, remember your self, allways and every where.
Beautiful Dreamer
April 1, 2007 at 11:46 pm
John, John John. You partake of the koolaid so quickly. You’re going to be the perfect student. And if your pretty enough you’ll penetrate the inner circle quite quickly, goodness.
April 1, 2007 at 11:56 pm
A long time ago in a galaxy far, far away, Robert suggested that, after Armageddon had killed everyone outside of Renaissance/Apollo/Isis, students might be sent out to recover certain artistic treasures of the world and bring them back. It is 2007 and Armageddon has come and gone. It struck me that now Robert is doing precisely that – raking through the spiritual literature and experience of the entire world for bits and pieces to ornament Isis, and the “new forms”.
#99 from GOlb as Rumi could be seen as a good example of that sort of material – a beautiful story, with real meaning and one which totally sidesteps the issues raised in this blog. There used to be the phrase “playing the Robert card” i.e. quoting Robert in an attempt to promote feelings of co-opted respect and unassailability for the quoter’s position.
Naturally, I will at this point do precisely that. Robert said “Omens bypass words, and one deposits them in the third eye”. He has been trying to bypass words and reason fairly intensively since actively resuming teaching. The hope, of course, is to find words and images that throw a spanner into the intellectual centre’s tendency to use logic to reinforce a comfortable reality and allow for a higher state to emerge, a gentler variant of the way that psychotropic drugs can artificially disable much of personality, allowing a less routine view of reality to emerge.
While that approach clearly can be legitimate, more often the “gentler drug” offered is not really intended as a liberating psychotropic, but as a sedative to quell inconvenient questions. In hearing such a “teaching story” one is tempted to be carried away by the beauty of it and the malleability of its analogies and not earnestly review the idea being expressed. If the claim were simply made: “Teachers, by their very nature, cannot explain their bizarre actions, but must simply beat you and make you run around senselessly until you puke out all ideas in contravention to the teacher’s counsel and perceive his boundless selflessness”, one might be less inclined to find it beautiful.
Higher states have a distinctly non-logical, metaphorical and beautiful nature about them. A mistake that many make is assuming commutability of the formula, and thinking anything distinctly non-logical, metaphorical and beautiful must be indicative of a higher truth. Simple logic deflates such errors easily, as easily as it would deflate attempts to paint all students or ex-students with the characteristics of certain members of each group.
Please do not take this as an attack on you, GOlb. Your posting just serves to illustrate a tendency.
April 2, 2007 at 12:00 am
Bad, bad Medusa,
I told you, too much poison in those damn snakes, I told you…, people can live in dirt for ever, but they don’t like to hear anyone actually TALKING about it, you are not going to make too many new friends if you continue like this, I told you, bad, bad Medusa…
You know what, Dear “A Friend” # 97 ,
I even kind of enjoyed the honesty of your post, although I can also see the profit in having it counter balanced by post # 121 ;
I don’t have much to add to its breakdown of your post, but there are just a couple of points I would like to underline even more , if you allow me.
First of all, like many other “still-members” (and probably you call some of them FRIENDS to this day ..)
I have gone through mixed feelings of strong and painful disappointment, confusion, fear and sadness , for months now, as the result of finding myself living a reality that is so much in contradiction with my most precious verifications of what is true & right for me, what is real ,what brings me closer to the moment and to myself.
I despise those who possess that indistinguishable sense of blind arrogance
and shallow understanding that allows them to various insensitive statements
such as ” So, why don’t you just go, already ?…” as if coming here and dedicating almost a third of my life to the FoF carried the same kind of responsibility and level of commitment of becoming a member of Sam’s club and therefore could be easily undone in a matter of days;
As if my level of understanding was such that I could not still appreciate the beauty which nourished me for so long , in spite of the fact that everything around it is decaying.
Everything is a process and it’s different for everyone.
It takes time to get disenchanted, deprogrammed, to loose that sense of anger and resentment that had bothered you so much in our words,
it takes time to get disentangled from the practical bonds of our everyday life, to pull ourselves , and our children , out of the emotional environment that we have so lovingly paid and created over the years,
it takes time to come to a more neutral place within ourselves,
where living is not a reaction, but a choice,
where resentment is replaced by gratitude and the space for accounts reduced to minimum because , yes, …. I want to leave, I’m going to leave and at some level it’s true, I’ve left already, but I want to get the hell out of here CLEAN, or at least as light as I can;
I want to say “ Goodbye, I love you..” and mean it.
Yes, I’ve said it before, I’m stealing time, stealing beauty from my friends, maybe you are even one of them;
I’m making my self full and plump with their love and wisdom, hoping to be able to carry it with me and make last for the rest of my life.
This process has a price, but don’t worry, I’m the one who is paying for it.
And just for the sake of clarity…, what Robert does IS my business;
It is NOT because of morality, you narrow-minded thing,
It’s because HE IS the teacher , because his example of how to lead a more pure and noble life, detached from bonds and temptations of material and earthly nature,
free from the slavery of the lower self’s deception (in his own words, not EVER in his acts) was my inspiration to try to lead my life in the same way;
I DON’T CARE about what and why the “boys” do what they do , ultimately I didn’t come for them, I didn’t choose them, they are not my teachers, HE is….well,was.
His incessant example of lack of patience, lack of control on his greed and lust,
lack acceptance of things as they are, of people as they are, of friction as it is,
of standards, of openness and honesty,
lack of resistance to depravation and decadence, lack of humility
and lately, even lack of mere LOGIC,
Is my business….WHY it is not yours too ?
Still too bitter to leave….Medusa
April 2, 2007 at 12:05 am
Thanks No Person #115. I read your reply carefully, and have some more questions:
“Choices are just 2 contradicting thoughts, one prevails, so there is an illusion of a choice made. By whom? No one is there to make it. If it is seen, the questions about what to do just disappear. Until it is seen, there will be questions about what to do. So, may I kindly suggest – try to see who you really are first. Try to acknowledge ever-present awareness, looking through your eyes right now, and notice that the “me” guy is nowhere to be found, except in the mind as a thought story.”
Sorry, I did not quite get it, – if what is seen? that there is no one there to make decisions? So the two contradicting thoughts are still there and you just find yourself going with one of them? And it does not matter because you put your identity in the watching bit, the awareness-ness?
Unfortunately, I do not experience ever-present awareness; that is how come I find my glasses on top of my head or go to lock the back door to find I already did it. And again I find your idea of no need to make any decisions, because there is no one there to do it, difficult. I acknowledge that there is no real “me”, but I do see many “me’s” and still maintain that some are more desirable than others, and there IS a choice to be made at times. Otherwise doesn’t what you are saying justify RB’s allegedly manipulative behaviour? He is supposed to be watching himself all the time, and if he goes with a thought to do one thing that will harm someone and gratify his desires, rather than going with a thought to do something else, is that ok, as he is watching it all? Or are you saying that when you get to the state of being in the ever-present awareness, you instinctively know what to do, and it is generally right action? If it is not right action, we learn from it and act differently next time? But then that assumes there is ‘someone’ there to learn from it.
I am not totally mesmerized by all the thoughts that come and go, and I dont want to discuss for the sake of it, but ask these things as I would really like to understand.
Thanks, and anyone else who has any thoughts on it, please reply.
April 2, 2007 at 12:10 am
WE are the Heart of the Absolute, the Absolute needs every single Being to BE Awaken, so HE can BE completly Awaken too( WE are all ONE ) and give HIS one-step forward Evolution. Been all Awake the Heart of the Absolute will start pumping and True change will come, so the task for those already Awaken is to HELP! “others” to Awaken, so The Miracle comes to happen.
So is up to us all to Wakeup “The TITAN”.
April 2, 2007 at 12:58 am
To fence rider: I remember a singer named Janis Joplin who said, “freedom is when you have nothing else to lose”.
April 2, 2007 at 1:02 am
The post#111 from Veronacapoe, which is a copy of the current entry with information about the Fellowship of Friends on WIKIPEDIA, may be your last chance to read it as it is currently being heavily disputed by two current FOF members, ( their names are given on WIKIPEDIA )
April 2, 2007 at 1:13 am
To The Golden Fleece: I want to encourage you to keep up “your” Work, it is
your best hope that ,one day,fully exhausted and
frustrated,you may collapse,empty,and then recognize that simple,silent reality you have in fact,always been. Work has this value: it will not set you free,but ultimately,the realization that “you” never awaken, that “you” are not the body, or the mind -that awareness,will emerge when all that “noble”,sophisticated,self serving
suffering that one imagined is finally seen,done and finnished with.
I say all this because I too,have efforted,have tried to become conscious for two decades in the FoF. Perhaps,at events,we’ve toasted and congratulated each other? At any rate,I toast you now old friend,because you are me in every way. My spiritual ego was about the same size as yours,and honestly, every day I made noble efforts,moving along that long,high wall of Sleep in “my” well intended,spiritual quest to achieve awakening; that wall whereon was posted Roberts technicolor
teaching,and before which I for years paced and paced.One day,for reasons still unknown,I was forced to climb over that 4th Way wall. What I found was everything and nothing. We niavely call it Reality, or Truth. No place for wimps!I discovered that,like you,”I” do not exist.There is no “me”. To know -not “understand”- but to know that one is, actually, really, nothing,and that that awareness is all and everything,is the
freedom which I had worked so hard to “achieve”, but which was only granted as a grace after my work,my ideas,my concepts,my “honest”efforts,were reduced to ashes. So keep up the work,put a fire under it even,if you think you can “do”. That may be the
fast lane to meeting reality. You,me,we,they -we’re all on the right road,because their is no wrong road,no one to make a mistake.
Yes,Work,if so inclined,and there will be results far greater than anyone could imagine.
All that helps is that we remain sincere.
April 2, 2007 at 1:47 am
Thank you #121!
April 2, 2007 at 1:54 am
Golden Fleece (137)
I read your satirical comments on part 3 number 163, and had a great laugh. But now you have me worried. Please don’t tell me you were serious! I might have to start crying instead. But if you are serious, maybe you should consider starting a business selling this marvelous “elixir.” Think how much you could charge for “Man Number 8 Elixir”!
Mark
April 2, 2007 at 2:05 am
The Gospel according to John 144:
Rita, From my point of view (not belief) your wrath is akin to a woman who once upon a time fell deeply in love with a man, devoted herself entirely to him, looked up to him and left everything behind her just to be with her lover. Then, one day, she found out that the man she loved had cheated on her, the illusion was crushed, destroyed, and now she ‘wants to bring the bastard down’. Understandable, but a common experience which is shared by many. I understand that you’re raw right now.
BTW: Let me know what your thoughts are in regards to the Grand Inquisitor in the ‘Harmonious Circle’
regards
Alexis
April 2, 2007 at 2:24 am
to continue on 148#
..or if you prefer Work language/what was once your third force/has now become your second (denying) force/
Alexis
Alexis
April 2, 2007 at 3:06 am
Update on the Fellowship of Friends wikipedia.org page:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellowship_of_Friends
As Sheik wrote in an earlier post, getting the Fellowship page to stand the test of time would be rather challenging. As of today, April 1, Wikipedia has locked the page and has placed the following paragraph at the top:
“This page is currently protected from editing until disputes have been resolved. Protection is not an endorsement of the current version (protection log). Please discuss changes on the talk page or request unprotection. You may use {{editprotected}} on the talk page to ask for an administrator to make an edit for you.”
For those who haven’t followed it, a considerable amount of text was placed on the page by apparent members of the Fellowship several days ago (clicking the Edit History tab provides a clue about their identities). Since then, a considerable amount of text has been deleted, and other text has replaced it. The following are excerpts from the current version of the page:
“Objective statement of the history of the organization is problematic, because the organization ostracizes ex-members and prohibits current members from contact with ex-members. This creates a situation in which the organization’s institutional history is mostly unknown to its current membership. [original research?] Objective sourcing is also problematic because of an institutional policy that promotes the destruction of papers documenting the organization’s early history, and is further complicated by misrepresentations of fact in official documents which the written and oral accounts of contemporaneous observers no longer within the organization contradict. These, taken together with the individual caches of old papers which have survived, as well as early photographs, drawings, and handwritten documents, together permit the delineation of a sourced, detailed history.
An essay written by the organization’s first member, [initials of BG], a woman expelled from the organization in the early 1970s who now resides in Denmark, recounts that the Fellowship began after she met the founder at a New Year’s Eve party on December 31, 1969 in Lafayette, California. At the time, she was married for the second time with children in school, while he was a single man of 30 living at home with his mother. The essay, titled “History of the Fellowship of Friends: From January 1970 to December 1973″ was privately published in 1997 to an electronic mailing list of ex-members and has since been circulated privately.[citation needed].”
Other text on the locked Wikipedia includes:
“The Fellowship of Friends refers to itself as a conscious school, meaning a school for spiritual evolution. The word “conscious” is used because its leader, Robert Burton, is said to be conscious – to have attained immortality within the boundaries of the solar system, according to the Fourth Way teaching, and so represents a connection with conscious or “C” influence for members of the organization. Humanity is said to be asleep and not know it, and only few individuals can awaken and escape with the direct help of C influence. Other people, in Robert Burton’s teaching, specifically those who do not belong to the Fellowship of Friends, are expected to become “food for the moon” upon dying, eaten by a lower world with a minimal chance of escaping in the eons that ensue. In contrast, it is said that C influence (other more evolved immortal beings) will place the souls of members in limbo until their next rebirth. Burton has stated that an evolving soul moves through nine lifetimes before it finally escapes, and that most of the members are in their seventh or eighth lifetime, so they will become completely conscious in their ninth lifetime.[1]”
There’s much more:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellowship_of_Friends
April 2, 2007 at 3:57 am
A point that no one has brought up is the feminine dominance around lifetimes and the idea pushed by Robert that:
The gods are working with you and after your ninth lifetime you will go to the celestial city of paradise and be encapsulated in a crystal chamber and work to help others on your ladder evolve as a gods, selflessly, for those both above and below you in a state of endless external consideration.
If you leave you the school you go to the moon…but wait…alas..the Gods never miss…and isn’t the moon the steward…So what does it mean if I leave the school?…were the gods wrong?…will I lose my chances at attaining paradise?…is Robert wrong?…Can I still have a soul even if I leave the school?
Do I have a soul, or am I a concept of this moment only to return to infinity in some other form after I pass?
Oh Leonardo, what do I do?
Facetiously with love and seriousness,
Former American Student
April 2, 2007 at 4:03 am
To: Cry Baby
Is that you Turan?
I can’t think of anyone else up there who would quote Frank Zappa except maybe Brode.
Love,
Dick
April 2, 2007 at 4:42 am
Dear all,
This is a long newspaper article, but a lot of you will find some interesting information within it. Persevere, as further in it talks about the ‘mutation in human nature…..the discovery of the inner self’. Also interesting is the law of synchronicity seems to be working with quotes from a 17th Century Robert Burton and examples from Shakespeare and Rembrandt.
john tomnay
How we learned to stop having fun
We used to know how to get together and really let our hair down. Then, in the early 1600s, a mass epidemic of depression broke out – and we’ve been living with it ever since. Something went wrong, but what? Barbara Ehrenreich unpicks the causes of our unhappiness
Monday April 2, 2007
The Guardian
Beginning in England in the 17th century, the European world was stricken by what looks, in today’s terms, like an epidemic of depression. The disease attacked both young and old, plunging them into months or years of morbid lethargy and relentless terrors, and seemed – perhaps only because they wrote more and had more written about them – to single out men of accomplishment and genius. The puritan writer John Bunyan, the political leader Oliver Cromwell, the poets Thomas Gray and John Donne, and the playwright and essayist Samuel Johnson are among the earliest and best-known victims. To the medical profession, the illness presented a vexing conundrum, not least because its gravest outcome was suicide. In 1733, Dr George Cheyne speculated that the English climate, combined with sedentary lifestyles and urbanisation, “have brought forth a class of distemper with atrocious and frightful symptoms, scarce known to our ancestors, and never rising to such fatal heights, and afflicting such numbers in any known nation. These nervous disorders being computed to make almost one-third of the complaints of the people of condition in England.”
To the English, the disease was “the English malady”. But the rainy British Isles were not the only site visited by the disease; all of Europe was afflicted.
The disease grew increasingly prevalent over the course of the 20th century, when relatively sound statistics first became available, and this increase cannot be accounted for by a greater willingness on the part of physicians and patients to report it. Rates of schizophrenia, panic disorders and phobias did not rise at the same time, for example, as they would be expected to if only changes in the reporting of mental illness were at work. According to the World Health Organisation, depression is now the fifth leading cause of death and disability in the world, while ischemic heart disease trails in sixth place. Fatalities occur most dramatically through suicide, but even the mild form of depression – called dysthemia and characterised by an inability to experience pleasure – can kill by increasing a person’s vulnerability to serious somatic illnesses such as cancer and heart disease. Far from being an affliction of the famous and successful, we now know that the disease strikes the poor more often than the rich, and women more commonly than men.
Just in the past few years, hundreds of books, articles and television specials have been devoted to depression: its toll on the individual, its relationship to gender, the role of genetic factors, the efficacy of pharmaceutical treatments. But to my knowledge, no one has suggested that the epidemic may have begun in a particular historical time, and started as a result of cultural circumstances that arose at that time and have persisted or intensified since. The failure to consider historical roots may stem, in part, from the emphasis on the celebrity victims of the past, which tends to discourage a statistical, or epidemiological, perspective. But if there was, in fact, a beginning to the epidemic of depression, sometime in the 16th or 17th century, it confronts us with this question: could this apparent decline in the ability to experience pleasure be in any way connected with the decline in opportunities for pleasure, such as carnival and other traditional festivities?
There is reason to think that something like an epidemic of depression in fact began around 1600, or the time when the Anglican minister Robert Burton undertook his “anatomy” of the disease, published as The Anatomy of Melancholy in 1621. Melancholy, as it was called until the 20th century, is of course a very ancient problem, and was described in the fifth century BC by Hippocrates. Chaucer’s 14th-century characters were aware of it, and late-medieval churchmen knew it as “acedia”. So melancholy, in some form, had always existed – and, regrettably, we have no statistical evidence of a sudden increase in early modern Europe, which had neither a psychiatric profession to do the diagnosing nor a public health establishment to record the numbers of the afflicted. All we know is that in the 1600s and 1700s, medical books about melancholy and literature with melancholic themes were both finding an eager audience, presumably at least in part among people who suffered from melancholy themselves.
Increasing interest in melancholy is not, however, evidence of an increase in the prevalence of actual melancholy. As the historian Roy Porter suggested, the disease may simply have been becoming more stylish, both as a medical diagnosis and as a problem, or pose, affected by the idle rich, and signifying a certain ennui or detachment. No doubt the medical prejudice that it was a disease of the gifted, or at least of the comfortable, would have made it an attractive diagnosis to the upwardly mobile and merely out-of-sorts.
But melancholy did not become a fashionable pose until a full century after Burton took up the subject, and when it did become stylish, we must still wonder: why did this particular stance or attitude become fashionable and not another? An arrogant insouciance might, for example, seem more fitting to an age of imperialism than this wilting, debilitating malady; and enlightenment, another well-known theme of the era, might have been better served by a mood of questing impatience.
Nor can we be content with the claim that the apparent epidemic of melancholy was the cynical invention of the men who profited by writing about it, since some of these were self-identified sufferers themselves. Robert Burton confessed, “I writ of melancholy, by being busy to avoid melancholy.” George Cheyne was afflicted, though miraculously cured by a vegetarian diet of his own devising. The Englishman John Brown, who published a bestselling mid-19th-century book on the subject, went on to commit suicide. Something was happening, from about 1600 on, to make melancholy a major concern of the reading public, and the simplest explanation is that there was more melancholy around to be concerned about.
And very likely the phenomena of this early “epidemic of depression” and the suppression of communal rituals and festivities are entangled in various ways. It could be, for example, that, as a result of their illness, depressed individuals lost their taste for communal festivities and even came to view them with revulsion. But there are other possibilities. First, that both the rise of depression and the decline of festivities are symptomatic of some deeper, underlying psychological change, which began about 400 years ago and persists, in some form, in our own time. The second, more intriguing possibility is that the disappearance of traditional festivities was itself a factor contributing to depression.
One approaches the subject of “deeper, underlying psychological change” with some trepidation, but fortunately, in this case, many respected scholars have already visited this difficult terrain. “Historians of European culture are in substantial agreement,” Lionel Trilling wrote in 1972, “that in the late 16th and early 17th centuries, something like a mutation in human nature took place.” This change has been called the rise of subjectivity or the discovery of the inner self and since it can be assumed that all people, in all historical periods, have some sense of selfhood and capacity for subjective reflection, we are really talking about an intensification, and a fairly drastic one, of the universal human capacity to face the world as an autonomous “I”, separate from, and largely distrustful of, “them”. The European nobility had already undergone this sort of psychological shift in their transformation from a warrior class to a collection of courtiers, away from directness and spontaneity and toward a new guardedness in relation to others. In the late 16th and 17th centuries, the change becomes far more widespread, affecting even artisans, peasants, and labourers. The new “emphasis on disengagement and selfconsciousness”, as Louis Sass puts it, makes the individual potentially more autonomous and critical of existing social arrange-ments, which is all to the good. But it can also transform the individual into a kind of walled fortress, carefully defended from everyone else.
Historians infer this psychological shift from a number of concrete changes occurring in the early modern period, first and most strikingly among the urban bourgeoisie, or upper middle class. Mirrors in which to examine oneself become popular among those who can afford them, along with self-portraits (Rembrandt painted more than 50 of them) and autobiographies in which to revise and elaborate the image that one has projected to others. In bourgeois homes, public spaces that guests may enter are differentiated, for the first time, from the private spaces – bedrooms, for example – in which one may retire to let down one’s guard and truly “be oneself”. More decorous forms of entertainment – plays and operas requiring people to remain immobilised, each in his or her separate seat – begin to provide an alternative to the promiscuously interactive and physically engaging pleasures of carnival. The very word “self”, as Trilling noted, ceases to be a mere reflexive or intensifier and achieves the status of a freestanding noun, referring to some inner core, not readily visible to others.
The notion of a self hidden behind one’s appearance and portable from one situation to another is usually attributed to the new possibility of upward mobility. In medieval culture, you were what you appeared to be – a peasant, a man of commerce or an aristocrat – and any attempt to assume another status would have been regarded as rank deception. But in the late 16th century, upward mobility was beginning to be possible or at least imaginable, making “deception” a widespread way of life. You might not be a lord or a lofty burgher, but you could find out how to act like one. Hence the popularity, in 17th-century England, of books instructing the would-be member of the gentry in how to comport himself, write an impressive letter and choose a socially advantageous wife.
Hence, too, the new fascination with the theatre, with its notion of an actor who is different from his or her roles. This is a notion that takes some getting used to; in the early years of the theatre, actors who played the part of villains risked being assaulted by angry playgoers in the streets. Within the theatre, there is a fascination with plots involving further deceptions: Shakespeare’s Portia pretends to be a doctor of law; Rosalind disguises herself as a boy; Juliet feigns her own death. Writing a few years after Shakespeare’s death, Burton bemoaned the fact that acting was no longer confined to the theatre, for “men like stage-players act [a] variety of parts”. It was painful, in his view, “to see a man turn himself into all shapes like a Chameleon … to act twenty parts & persons at once for his advantage … having a several face, garb, & character, for every one he meets”. The inner self that can change costumes and manners to suit the occasion resembles a skilled craftsperson, too busy and watchful for the pleasures of easygoing conviviality. As for the outer self projected by the inner one into the social world: who would want to “lose oneself” in the communal excitement of carnival when that self has taken so much effort and care to construct?
So highly is the “inner self” honoured within our own culture that its acquisition seems to be an unquestionable mark of progress – a requirement, as Trilling called it, for “the emergence of modern European and American man”. It was, no doubt, this sense of individuality and personal autonomy, “of an untrammelled freedom to ask questions and explore”, as the historian Yi-Fu Tuan put it, that allowed men such as Martin Luther and Galileo to risk their lives by defying Catholic doctrine. Which is preferable: a courageous, or even merely grasping and competitive, individualism, versus a medieval (or, in the case of non-European cultures, “primitive”) personality so deeply mired in community and ritual that it can barely distinguish a “self”? From the perspective of our own time, the choice, so stated, is obvious. We have known nothing else.
But there was a price to be paid for the buoyant individualism we associate with the more upbeat aspects of the early modern period, the Renaissance and Enlightenment. As Tuan writes, “the obverse” of the new sense of personal autonomy is “isolation, loneliness, a sense of disengagement, a loss of natural vitality and of innocent pleasure in the givenness of the world, and a feeling of burden because reality has no meaning other than what a person chooses to impart to it”. Now if there is one circumstance indisputably involved in the etiology of depression, it is precisely this sense of isolation. As the 19th-century French sociologist Emile Durkheim saw it, “Originally society is everything, the individual nothing … But gradually things change. As societies become greater in volume and density, individual differences multiply, and the moment approaches when the only remaining bond among the members of a single human group will be that they are all [human].” The flip side of the heroic autonomy that is said to represent one of the great achievements of the early modern and modern eras is radical isolation and, with it, depression and sometimes death.
But the new kind of personality that arose in 16th- and 17th-century Europe was by no means as autonomous and self-defining as claimed. For far from being detached from the immediate human environment, the newly self-centered individual is continually preoccupied with judging the expectations of others and his or her own success in meeting them: “How am I doing?” this supposedly autonomous “self” wants to know. “What kind of an impression am I making?”
It is no coincidence that the concept of society emerges at the same time as the concept of self. What seems most to concern the new and supposedly autonomous self is the opinion of others, who in aggregate compose “society”. Mirrors, for example, do not show us our “selves”, only what others can see, and autobiographies reveal only what we want those others to know. The crushing weight of other people’s judgments – imagined or real – would help explain the frequent onset of depression at the time of a perceived or anticipated failure. In the 19th century, the historian Janet Oppenheim reports, “severely depressed patients frequently revealed totally unwarranted fears of financial ruin or the expectation of professional disgrace”. This is not autonomy but dependency: the emerging “self” defines its own worth in terms of the perceived judgments of others.
If depression was one result of the new individualism, the usual concomitant of depression – anxiety – was surely another. It takes effort, as well as a great deal of watchfulness, to second-guess other people’s reactions and plot one’s words and gestures accordingly. For the scheming courtier, the striving burgher and the ambitious lawyer or cleric of early modern Europe, the “self” they discovered is perhaps best described as an awareness of this ceaseless, internal effort to adjust one’s behaviour to the expectations of others. Play in this context comes to have a demanding new meaning, unconnected to pleasure, as in “playing a role”. No wonder bourgeois life becomes privatised in the 16th and 17th centuries, with bedrooms and studies to withdraw to, where, for a few hours a day, the effort can be abandoned, the mask set aside.
But we cannot grasp the full psychological impact of this “mutation in human nature” in purely secular terms. Four hundred – even 200 – years ago, most people would have interpreted their feelings of isolation and anxiety through the medium of religion, translating self as “soul”; the ever-watchful judgmental gaze of others as “God”; and melancholy as “the gnawing fear of eternal damnation”. Catholicism offered various palliatives to the disturbed and afflicted, in the form of rituals designed to win divine forgiveness or at least diminished disapproval; and even Lutheranism, while rejecting most of the rituals, posited an approachable and ultimately loving God.
Not so with the Calvinist version of Protestantism. Instead of offering relief, Calvinism provided a metaphysical framework for depression: if you felt isolated, persecuted and possibly damned, this was because you actually were.
John Bunyan seems to have been a jolly enough fellow in his youth, much given to dancing and sports in the village green, but with the onset of his religious crisis these pleasures had to be put aside. Dancing was the hardest to relinquish – “I was a full year before I could quite leave it” – but he eventually managed to achieve a fun-free life. In Bunyan’s Pilgrim’s Progress, carnival is the portal to Hell, just as pleasure in any form – sexual, gustatory, convivial – is the devil’s snare. Nothing speaks more clearly of the darkening mood, the declining possibilities for joy, than the fact that, while the medieval peasant created festivities as an escape from work, the Puritan embraced work as an escape from terror.
We do not have to rely on psychological inference to draw a link between Calvinism and depression. There is one clear marker for depression – suicide – and suicide rates have been recorded, with varying degrees of diligence, for centuries. In his classic study, Durkheim found that Protestants in the 19th century – not all of whom, of course, were of the Calvinistic persuasion – were about twice as likely to take their own lives as Catholics. More strikingly, a recent analysis finds a sudden surge of suicide in the Swiss canton of Zurich, beginning in the late 16th century, just as that region became a Calvinist stronghold. Some sort of general breakdown of social mores cannot be invoked as an explanation, since homicides fell as suicides rose.
So if we are looking for a common source of depression on the one hand, and the suppression of festivities on the other, it is not hard to find. Urbanisation and the rise of a competitive, market-based economy favoured a more anxious and isolated sort of person – potentially both prone to depression and distrustful of communal pleasures. Calvinism provided a transcendent rationale for this shift, intensifying the isolation and practically institutionalising depression as a stage in the quest for salvation. At the level of “deep, underlying psychological change”, both depression and the destruction of festivities could be described as seemingly inevitable consequences of the broad process known as modernisation. But could there also be a more straightforward link, a way in which the death of carnival contributed directly to the epidemic of depression?
It may be that in abandoning their traditional festivities, people lost a potentially effective cure for it. Burton suggested many cures for melancholy – study and exercise, for example – but he returned again and again to the same prescription: “Let them use hunting, sports, plays, jests, merry company … a cup of good drink now and then, hear musick, and have such companions with whom they are especially delighted; merry tales or toys, drinking, singing, dancing, and whatsoever else may procure mirth.” He acknowledged the ongoing attack on “Dancing, Singing, Masking, Mumming, Stage-plays” by “some severe Gatos,” referring to the Calvinists, but heartily endorsed the traditional forms of festivity: “Let them freely feast, sing and dance, have their Puppet-plays, Hobby-horses, Tabers, Crowds, Bagpipes, &c, play at Ball, and Barley-breaks, and what sports and recreations they like best.” In his ideal world, “none shall be over-tired, but have their set times of recreations and holidays, to indulge their humour, feasts and merry meetings …” His views accorded with treatments of melancholy already in use in the 16th century. While the disruptively “mad” were confined and cruelly treated, melancholics were, at least in theory, to be “refreshed & comforted” and “gladded with instruments of musick”.
A little over a century after Burton wrote The Anatomy of Melancholy, another English writer, Richard Browne, echoed his prescription, backing it up with a scientific (for the time) view of the workings of the human “machine”. Singing and dancing could cure melancholy, he proposed, by stirring up the “secretions”. And a century later, even Adam Smith, the great prophet of capitalism, was advocating festivities and art as a means of relieving melancholy.
Burton, Browne and Smith were not the only ones to propose festivity as a cure for melancholy, and there is reason to believe that whether through guesswork, nostalgia, or personal experience, they were on to something important. I know of no attempts in our own time to use festive behaviour as treatment for depression, if such an experiment is even thinkable in a modern clinical setting. There is, however, an abundance of evidence that communal pleasures have served, in a variety of cultures, as a way of alleviating and even curing depression.
The 19th-century historian JFC Hecker reports an example from 19th-century Abyssinia, or what is now Ethiopia. An individual, usually a woman, would fall into a kind of wasting illness, until her relatives agreed to “hire, for a certain sum of money, a band of trumpeters, drummers, and fifers, and buy a quantity of liquor; then all the young men and women of the place assemble at the patient’s house,” where they dance and generally party for days, invariably effecting a cure. Similarly, in 20th-century Somalia, a married woman afflicted by what we would call depression would call for a female shaman, who might diagnose possession by a “sar” spirit. Musicians would be hired, other women summoned, and the sufferer cured through a long bout of ecstatic dancing with the all-female group.
We cannot be absolutely sure in any of these cases – from 17th-century England to 20th-century Somalia – that festivities and danced rituals actually cured the disease we know as depression. But there are reasons to think that they might have. First, because such rituals serve to break down the sufferer’s sense of isolation and reconnect him or her with the human community. Second, because they encourage the experience of self-loss – that is, a release, however temporary, from the prison of the self, or at least from the anxious business of evaluating how one stands in the group or in the eyes of an ever-critical God. Friedrich Nietzsche, as lonely and tormented an individual as the 19th century produced, understood the therapeutics of ecstasy perhaps better than anyone else. At a time of almost universal celebration of the “self”, he alone dared speak of the “horror of individual existence”, and glimpsed relief in the ancient Dionysian rituals that he knew of only from reading classics – rituals in which, he imagined, “each individual becomes not only reconciled to his fellow but actually at one with him”.
The immense tragedy for Europeans, and most acutely for the northern Protestants among them, was that the same social forces that disposed them to depression also swept away a traditional cure. They could congratulate themselves for brilliant achievements in the areas of science, exploration and industry, and even convince themselves that they had not, like Faust, had to sell their souls to the devil in exchange for these accomplishments. But with the suppression of festivities that accompanied modern European “progress”, they had done something perhaps far more damaging: they had completed the demonisation of Dionysus begun by Christians centuries ago, and thereby rejected one of the most ancient sources of help – the mind-preserving, life-saving techniques of ecstasy.
· This is an edited extract from Dancing in the Streets: A History of Collective Joy by Barbara Ehrenreich, published by Granta at £16.99. To buy a copy from the Guardian bookshop for £15.99 with free p&p contact 0870 836 0875 or email support@guardianbookshop.co.uk. Barbara Ehrenreich will be speaking with Geoff Dyer at London’s ICA tonight (www.ica.org.uk)
April 2, 2007 at 6:20 am
“If you want to be rich start your own religion”
April 2, 2007 at 7:03 am
4/279 !!!
4/293
5/15
5/121
Thank you! Thank you! Thank you!
Special thanks to post 4/279 which clearly shows the true essence of Burton’s doctrine:
NO MONEY NO HEAVEN
April 2, 2007 at 7:15 am
Dear John (#5-144),
Welcome to the FoF. Don´t worry, the “vow” was just an ‘I’. Remember, you have encountered one aspect of the miraculous on planet Earth. Live fully the magical experience of connecting with the Unknown. You have nothing real to lose but your own imagination.
Our luck is immense, like the boundless territory we have entered upon and are traveling across. Let’s enjoy the ride together and have fun on the way.
Please accept my profound joy for your new adventure.
Your Friend,
El Zorro
April 2, 2007 at 7:23 am
You know, pumpkins, everybody here is entirely entitled to their opinion. What they think,is for them, their reality, regardless of how misled or how ignorant their reality seems to be to anyone else’s, for them it is real because they have created it, experienced it.
I pass on to you something I found interesting, and may become another tool for those of you open enough to understand its value:
Two years ago, I heard about a therapist in Hawaii
who cured a complete ward of criminally insane
patients–without ever seeing any of them. The
psychologist would study an inmate’s chart and then
look within himself to see how he created that
person’s illness. As he improved himself, the
patient improved.
When I first heard this story, I thought it was an
urban legend. How could anyone heal anyone else by
healing himself? How could even the best
self-improvement master cure the criminally insane?
It didn’t make any sense. It wasn’t logical, so I
dismissed the story.
However, I heard it again a year later. I heard that
the therapist had used a Hawaiian healing process
called ho ‘oponopono. I had never heard of it, yet I
couldn’t let it leave my mind. If the story was at
all true, I had to know more.
I had always understood “total responsibility” to
mean that I am responsible for what I think and do.
Beyond that, it’s out of my hands. I think that most
people think of total responsibility that way. We’re
responsible for what we do, not what anyone else
does. The Hawaiian therapist who healed those
mentally ill people would teach me an advanced new
perspective about total responsibility.
His name is Dr. Ihaleakala Hew Len. We probably
spent an hour talking on our first phone call. I
asked him to tell me the complete story of his work
as a therapist. He explained that he worked at
Hawaii State Hospital for four years. That ward
where they kept the criminally insane was dangerous.
Psychologists quit on a monthly basis. The staff
called in sick a lot or simply quit. People would
walk through that ward with their backs against the
wall, afraid of being attacked by patients. It was
not a pleasant place to live, work, or visit.
Dr. Len told me that he never saw patients. He
agreed to have an office and to review their files.
While he looked at those files, he would work on
himself. As he worked on himself, patients began to
heal.
“After a few months, patients that had to be
shackled were being allowed to walk freely,” he told
me. “Others who had to be heavily medicated were
getting off their medications. And those who had no
chance of ever being released were being freed.”
I was in awe.
“Not only that,” he went on, “but the staff began to
enjoy coming to work. Absenteeism and turnover
disappeared. We ended up with more staff than we
needed because patients were being released, and all
the staff was showing up to work. Today, that ward
is closed.”
This is where I had to ask the million dollar
question: “What were you doing within yourself that
caused those people to change?”
“I was simply healing the part of me that created
them,” he said.
I didn’t understand.
Dr. Len explained that total responsibility for your
life means that everything in your life – simply
because it is in your life–is your responsibility.
In a literal sense the entire world is your
creation.
Whew. This is tough to swallow. Being esponsible
for what I say or do is one thing. Being responsible
for what everyone in my life says or does is quite
another. Yet, the truth is this: if you take
complete responsibility for your life, then
everything you see, hear, taste, touch, or in any
way experience is your responsibility because it is
in your life.
This means that terrorist activity, the president,
the economy–anything you experience and don’t
like–is up for you to heal. They don’t exist, in a
manner of speaking, except as projections from
inside you. The problem isn’t with them, it’s with
you, and to change them, you have to change you.
I know this is tough to grasp, let alone accept or
actually live. Blame is far easier than total
responsibility, but as I spoke with Dr. Len, I began
to realize that healing for him and in ho ‘oponopono
means loving yourself. If you want to improve your
life, you have to heal your life. If you want to
cure anyone–even a mentally ill criminal–you do it
by healing you.
I asked Dr. Len how he went about healing himself.
What was he doing, exactly, when he looked at those
patients’ files?
“I just kept saying, ‘I’m sorry’ and ‘I love you’
over and over again,” he explained.
That’s it?
That’s it.
Turns out that loving yourself is the greatest way
to improve yourself, and as you improve yourself,
your improve your world. Let me give you a quick
example of how this works: one day, someone sent me
an email that upset me. In the past I would have
handled it by working on my emotional hot buttons or
by trying to reason with the person who sent the
nasty message. This time, I decided to try Dr. Len’s
method. I kept silently saying, “I’m sorry” and “I
love you,” I didn’t say it to anyone in particular.
I was simply evoking the spirit of love to heal
within me what was creating the outer circumstance.
Within an hour I got an e-mail from the same person.
He apologized for his previous message. Keep in mind
that I didn’t take any outward action to get that
apology. I didn’t even write him back. Yet, by
saying “I love you,” I somehow healed within me what
was creating him.
I later attended a ho ‘oponopono workshop run by Dr.
Len. He’s now 70 years old, considered a
grandfatherly shaman, and is somewhat reclusive. He
praised my book, The Attractor Factor. He told me
that as I improve myself, my book’s vibration will
raise, and everyone will feel it when they read it.
In short, as I improve, my readers will improve.
“What about the books that are already sold and out
there?” I asked.
“They aren’t out there,” he explained, once again
blowing my mind with his mystic wisdom. “They are
still in you.”
In short, there is no out there.
It would take a whole book to explain this advanced
technique with the depth it deserves. Suffice it to
say that whenever you want to improve anything in
your life, there’s only one place to look: inside
you.
“When you look, do it with love.”
____________________________________________________________
>
>
> “If you want to solve a problem, no matter what kind
> of problem, work on yourself.” -Ihaleakala Hew Len
>
April 2, 2007 at 7:27 am
To: Innernaut, #138.
I hope you’re over your illness. Regarding a comment you made –
“Isn’t this what every believer of a religion, school, or way thinks — that they are on the only true way?”
I would agree that it is what everyone thinks. That, however, does not preclude the possibility that some actually “are” on the only true Way.
If the many who think they are on the Way turn out not to be on it, what do the ones think who really are on the Way? Would they think they are not on it? That’s not likely. They would also think they are on it. The only difference is they would be correct.
April 2, 2007 at 7:54 am
I came across this poem by Hafiz that I find quite inspiring. I hope you also benefit from it.
“I have learned so much from God,
that I can no longer call myself
a Christian, a Hindu, a Muslim,
a Buddhist, a Jew.
The Truth has shared so much
of itself with me
that I can no longer
call myself a man, a woman,
an angel, or even pure soul.
Love has befriended Hafiz so
completely, it has turned
to ash and freed me of
every concept and image
my mind has ever known”.
I believe that the more we penetrate and trust the light within us, all these seeming
differences between us just disappear and fade away.
Having been a student of FOF for 20 years, I have come to the point where I don’t think I need a teacher anymore. I can learn from anybody that happens to cross my path, in that way we are all teachers and can learn from each other. Why give the power of our own light to someone else? How can you trust that they are more aware than you? Probably I can benefit from listening to Adyashanti or John Wheeler or any other person that claims they know more than the average person, but to hold them as teachers? No, No! It is time to face my loneliness and work on my being. I had enough of knowledge. Every spiritual pilgrim has to face that sooner or later…when he/she is ready and brave enough to face it…like a true spiritual warrior.
April 2, 2007 at 7:56 am
To Cathie, #136,
When you cited “circular thinking” was that a pun, if so it was a great one?
My understanding is that there are no doors in the center that lead out; like most houses the doors leading out are on the perimeter.
I said no one “leaves” from the Inner Circle. That does not mean that Miles or anyone else did not at one time occupy an Inner Circle space. There is movement from the outer to the inner, and from inner to the outer.
April 2, 2007 at 9:09 am
#98 ‘i see’ said the blind man
I cannot imagine a more lucid depiction of what is going on there. “Feeding apparently intellegent people nonsense and having them believe he is interpreting the meaning of everything for them”. Not in this universe nor any universe in any dimension and any direction of time no matter how far it goes will the crap he is saying ever be true. This, howerver, is true. I have seen people in the depths of psychosis from methamphetomine use percieve connections like the ones RB are making. Is this the “consciousness” you fofers are looking for?
April 2, 2007 at 11:34 am
To all in this Inner Market of Time,
There has been some questioning about the way I’m pointing out the things I find wrong about the Fellowship of Friends, and I would here like to claim the right to live; to be right or wrong, cheer, whistle and scream before the snake bites and vow when you avoid it. If I had wanted the retirement that so many of you claim, I would have never chosen the fourth way as my path.
While it may be true that many of us are sitting in different places in time and most of you had been here much longer throwing balls around, I just came out of the snake’s nest and I’m still trying to pull my friends out.
When you tell me that every body’s right, what I hear you saying is something like: It’s fine for the children in Angola to die because they don’t have any food as it is right for the children in America to weigh five times their needed weight because they have too much food therefore: It is fine for the people in the Fellowship to continue supporting it because they are ignorant of what they are doing inside. You think you’re saying “Live and let live” but in reality you’re saying “Live and let die”. What does it take to see what’s right? Or better?
Isn’t it interesting how quickly the leaves stop moving when confronted with a wind coming from a different direction? This blog who was so forcefully pointing out the “wrongness” in the Fellowship is now wanting to cheer at it because a friend comes out and repeats the same old lines with which he held them in it.
One really needs to watch out in this nest of snakes because one can get so easily entangled.
Still, I claim the right to scream: “Watch out” and when I’m done screaming I might sit and cry and walk around. Let me also sit and cry and walk around.
The Fellowship in which many of you lived has continued to move down and further down and will continue falling if someone doesn’t stop it. Anyone can stand up and heal but don’t ask me to let it keep rolling down without doing my best to stop it.
Others have complained about the proselytizing and I also claim the right to offer a vision when I’m trying to destroy a reality. Sometimes reality is much worse than vision.
In this game of duality we’re all in one side or the other. All those who are, one way or another, affirming the possibility of being individuals without any commitment to a community, are no different to those inside the Fellowship that wish to remember themselves and no body else. But no one in this Fellowship blog is that committed to that position because they wouldn’t be that committed to this blog.
I have no shame in proselytizing the idea that we need to learn to live together and still respect our individuality. That is all I’m saying. Nor have I any shame in saying that I need and want each one of you to share my life with as long as you respect my individuality. If the Fellowship had been doing that, I would not have left it. There’s still even less shame in saying that the only way that we can respect each other’s individuality, is by establishing certain regulations that will guarantee, that we all play by the same rules and not by our lower emotional centre’s likes and dislikes, supported by exaggerated power in the instinctive centre. Power in the instinctive centre is what Mr. Burton and his inner circle hold and life in the Fellowship is conditioned by the emotional likes and dislikes of the people leading it without any objective guarantees for the whole. It may have been a conscious experiment at one time but it is now way more unconscious than regular life outside.
April 2, 2007 at 12:39 pm
Dear El Zorro,
I sense a different level of connection with the students in the center, even though so far I havn’t had the chance to get to know them better.
I feel the same from you after what you wrote.
I think I am not very naive about people (I work as a stock exchange broker where naïveté is the least helpful trait) and I know that all of us have darker places inside. Yet, I was touched by the gentleness and kindness of the students.
Thank you,
John
P.S. Bruce, Your post 150 is sheer vulgarity.
April 2, 2007 at 1:09 pm
Dear friends…many articles of such quality, time and energy..
Wikedia..blows me away..
Looking for Answers … still my guitar gently wheeps…I wish it was my guitar.
Love to all of you and enjoy every moment, even if the reality is hard to swallow. Yet all is perfect, (still trying too see it this way.)
BIG HUGS, do we need it now, in or out..out or in… somebody or nobody.
April 2, 2007 at 1:17 pm
Dear Golden Fleece,
Good to ‘hear’ your voice again.
I view current Advaita ‘virus’ as helpful to those who are leaving the school if they don’t try to re-bound with a new teaching, but use it for healing and moving on. My friend pointed to me today into a direction where the 4th way and Advaita are connected, but I can’t reveal it to you because it’s not my idea and I didn’t have a chance to think about it properly.
Dear Innernaut, hope you are feeling better now.
Dear John,
I don’t know why you perceived my writings as ‘constant attempts to pull others out of the school’; it has never been my aim.
As for the ‘crusade’ against Robert: if you have read my latest post attentively, you would have seen that I wrote of my wish ‘to bring the bastard down’ in the past tense. I have moved on since 2 blogs back and left the criticism of Robert in the hands more capable than mine.
Your words that ‘teacher’s sexual life is none of my business’ made me suspicious (although I might be wrong), whether you have already had the opportunity to talk to other students about this matter and were given this exactly response. These phrase was constantly used if I dared to bring the subject to discussion with my comrades in the school. As I wrote earlier, I consider it to be my business because I don’t find it acceptable for a teacher to use his power to take advantage of his followers.
Anyway, what are you doing, ‘naughty boy’, reading this blog? Can I remind you that current students are advised not to do it? If you are not yet another imaginary student, created by FOF propaganda, can it be that you still have honest questions? In this case I wish you to find honest answers.
Dear Alexis,
There was no sting in my message to you. And yes, it’s amazing, but I had a chance to sunbathe yesterday in my friend’s garden. Must be the Global warming on its positive side.
Wish everyone happy moonday!
April 2, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Dear Inmate #44 and Inner piece,
thanks for making me laugh outloud!
April 2, 2007 at 2:29 pm
Dear No Person,
Thanks for sharing with so many. The message is great. I love you!
April 2, 2007 at 3:35 pm
Re: posts 163-154: is not a quote from Frank Zappa…it is a quote R! Yeah it does sound like a drug trip with your soul waiting in a crystal rainbow colored chamber in the celestial city of paradise being poured over by all these externally considerate gods…etc.
I was trying to point out all the insanse gibberish talked about and taken seriously in the F. Most of this stuff is just made up, or copied from somewhere, but it does have a powerful effect when you buy into it.
I mean the Celestial City of Paradise…Gods in a permanent state of external consideration helping you to awaken…etc. give me a break. This is talked about seriously. Cuckoo…Cuckoo…
A lot of people in the F seem to think that “they” – i.e. their collective group of I’s called them is evolving over lifetimes and that “they” will be immortal gods following “R’s” footsteps on the stairway to heaven (Note: Led Zepplin quote), but who are “they” anyway? What is evolving? Does anything evolve or “become concious”? How would you verify it because verification for us is at the level of the I’s which are temporal. Also, what is the point of “awakening” anyway, if the temporary “you” is not permanent and what is already “is” is awake anyway regardless because it is part of infinity?
In F you are subtely tricked into thinking you are humbly working long and hard over several lifetimes to the point of exhaustion for “yourself” doing your duty for the gods, and in return they will do you a favor. But it seems like a large part of this impusle to work on oneself is greed. This desire to have the ego live forever. This is why students are so defensive. It is a matter of life and death survival for their souls and the farther they go with it the more desperate they become. According to the thinking “their” soul is on the line and it could be lost forever, if they screw up their one chance, their one shot at living in paradise forever.
Alot of fear is generated by the teacher and many of the more fundamentalist students work so hard because they are both greedy and scared fighting for the life of “their” souls.
Note: historically, another way to have an immortal ego is to become a vampire.
April 2, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Dearest Yesri Baba , Pinpointing the issues & few
Who are you???!!?? WHERE are you ??
How come that in my everyday life I seem to be surrounded exclusively by a mixture of Retarded Zorrors , Nasty Little Lambs , visionary Howard Carters and various hypnotized dis-members ??!?
It’s becoming almost like being in-out of the Matrix…can you please wear a black latex suit in the future, so that I can recognize you and feel in better company ??
April 2, 2007 at 6:58 pm
On “drugs”, Joe average, 5/151
“LSD is a drug which occasionaly causes psychotic behaviour in thos who HAVE NOT taken them!”
April 2, 2007 at 7:20 pm
Howard Carter (#169): Thank you for wishing me well. I am definitely recovering, though slowly. Serious illness has a remarkable ability to reveal our utter helplessness, while stripping things to their bare essentials.
When you speak of the FOF as the “only true way” (I assume that’s what you were referring to), you enter a realm that I was only briefly able to inhabit. At the time when I was able to believe in this way, it felt as real and as absolute as anything I have experienced. Then it went away, for reasons I won’t go into. I’ll just say that it looks much different now, having come out the other side of the rabbit hole. This feels just as real, if not more so. But I can’t convey these things with words. Knowledge is not being, and once you develop being in being out of the school, many things change and look very different.
One last thought on the idea of the “true way.” When I joined the FOF, I thought I was joining a 4th way school. That means there are at least 3 other “true” ways. Hmmm…
I’ll be honest: fanatical devotion frightens me. It frightens me because of things like the Jonestown suicides. It frightens me because of a quote from an ex-student who said that he believed in Robert so deeply at one point, if RB had asked him to set fire to the Lodge during dinner time, he would have done it. And it frightens me because I have seen the part in myself that is susceptible to this fanaticism, and I find it horrifying.
Frankly, this is why I am not comfortable with the “live and let live” attitude promoted by some current members here on the blog. I don’t think it’s “all good.” I think the FOF is essentially a bad thing — one that some very good people have been able to get some good out of. But that doesn’t make it good at its core. It’s like the current “debate” on global warming, which is really not a debate at all. Instead, it is, on the one hand, the vast majority of legitimate scientists saying that human-made global warming is real, versus a handful of scientists whose research is funded by the oil companies, which taints their objectivity and gives them a vested interest in “disproving” the human factor in global warming. You may say that I have a vested interest in proving the FOF wrong. That may be true, but it is not, as you mentioned at one point, because I fear I “may be wrong.” I learned long ago that that fear was a prominent part of the false personality that I used to call my work ‘I’s — which I developed in the FOF.
Howard, I suspect that you have a work ‘I’ to refute everything I’ve said. That too I understand. I have been there and done that. It’s critical to maintaining the “work.”
To finish up, I wholeheartedly agree with Walls Have Ears (#157), which though it wasn’t directed at you, fits the nature of this discussion:
“My spiritual ego was about the same size as yours,and honestly, every day I made noble efforts,moving along that long,high wall of Sleep in “my” well intended,spiritual quest to achieve awakening; that wall whereon was posted Roberts technicolor
teaching,and before which I for years paced and paced.One day,for reasons still unknown,I was forced to climb over that 4th Way wall. What I found was everything and nothing. We niavely call it Reality, or Truth.”
That is very well said. And maybe the truth is that you can’t get to that point without believing fully and doing everything you can until the spiritual ego collapses under its own weight. The part of us that so desperately wants to awaken is the very part standing in our way. Greed for consciousness and consciousness are like oil and water.
Good luck and thanks for listening.
April 2, 2007 at 7:24 pm
Dear FenceRider,
Thank you for helping me to focus on the issues. They are not the “issues” that are troubling me, but they are very valid concerns, and hearing them from you I can see how they are important. Again, they lead us to deep questions.
It is interesting that the issues don’t change, whether one stays in the school or not. It is the same universe confronting one — rich and beautiful — but we all know also filled with hardship and injustice. I think Gurdjieff was right when he said it is a pain factory. Just the mere fact that we and all the people we love will die is enough.
I realized soon after joining that the Fellowship would be a difficult nut to crack. What is this place where people paid for the gasoline when they got a ride in someone’s car? A place where the teacher didn’t invite everyone to dinner on a rotating list, but kept inviting the same ones? It challenged my idea of a love and fairness – and of all places in spiritual school! Where were the American ideals of democracy? My very first suggestion to my center director was to raise money as a center and give it to charity. She just laughed and told me to concentrate on the charity of the school. I saw this was not going to be easy for me. I would have to be willing to have my ideas and imaginary pictures confronted, including deeply ingrained ideas of justice.
Is it a just universe? Or is real justice only in the ability to separate from it? That has always been my stance, and even outside the school, it would be the only possible position. Otherwise one is just losing one’s energy on wishing things to be other than they are.
I know that the fact that it is an unjust universe does not justify injustice and I am not saying that. However, I do believe it is a teacher’s role not to pander to our imaginary ideas.
I don’t think he sets out to disturb us, but only tries to live his life as truly as possible for him, and the repercussions of this fall on us. This may be part of a greater plan to get us ready for a more objective state.
I once asked the teacher why there was so much suffering? And he answered, so that one could value even more when one transcended it. (I have paraphrased this.)
What would you like to see in the school? A Father Knows Best community–a Mother Teresa hostel for the poor–or a Camelot with a noble king and loyal subjects, where it only rains at night? It would be nice! Or what we have—thorny and contradictory, reflecting life itself? In his letter, Traveler understood the need for contradictions as food. Whoever he is, he is so wise, I wish he could stay and share his wisdom.
And even with all its shortcomings, can the FOF be replaced? The wonderful people, the beauty, the continuing focus on the present I spoke of in my last letter. This is no small thing, and we must not forget that it all came out of Robert’s vision and will. So maybe we are sometimes being just a little too hard on him.
Whatever you do, will it be different? Maybe you can try arrange your life to make it as good and fair as possible, but you will not go very far without finding contradiction and unfairness, because that it the nature of life.
As I said, I believe true freedom is freedom from the ‘I’s, and that the only justice is the capacity, given to all human beings, to rise above things and be in the present, where these problems disappear. I try to understand the saying on the Egyptian temples: “The key to all problems is the problem of consciousness.”
I have seen that my understanding can only reach the limit of what I am. We have the morality of a man number four, which includes ideas of integrity, kindness, and sincerity. I can only do what I can, and try to have these qualities in my relationships (and even in this I fail so often!) But I can intuit that this has its limitations. After that point, I have to stretch. Somehow, I feel that there is a more objective way to see things than I can presently see.
I saw a cat dying on the road and I was sad. Then I realized it was the fate of all.
Birdsong, I do go to meetings, and they are not easy. I try to tune in to what is behind the words – the transmission of world twelve. But I would also agree with your friends, it was fine not to go if it made you negative, and participate in the things that worked for you. In any case, things always change in the school.
Medusa, I feel your conflict. Of course there are so many beautiful people and a life in the school that you love. It is so much better hearing your pain than your poison. Who knows, maybe you will even work it all out and decide to stay.
There is such a sense here of everybody knowing what is wrong. Robert once said that people often shout Fire!, but there is no fire. Perhaps there is no fire at all, and we are just stirring one up with all these words.
FenceRider, you can leave the school, and look around with open eyes and see if it works better for you. If not, you can always return. Or you can stay and try to contribute in any way you can. I guess the way the school is run will probably not change that much, but in our times together we can try to make it beautiful. In fact, are we not doing just that?
Anyway, staying or leaving, either way will not be easy for anyone. If your conscience is troubling you to a point you cannot bear (transform), then no amount of “beautiful angles of relativity and scale” can keep you in the school. It would not be right. However, you may just hear something that can unlock this dilemma for you. It may just be an interval (a general one for the whole school), and like a long marriage, you just need to wait it out and the ‘I’s will seem less real.
I cannot know for you, but from your beautiful letters, it is clear you will know for yourself.
A friend.
April 2, 2007 at 7:35 pm
Arthur: #155
Actually Kris Kristoferson wrote those lyrics that Janis sang. Still a great point made.
Janis did say something like “There is no tomorrow–It’s always the same f**king day, man”
April 2, 2007 at 8:03 pm
It is a real pleasure to exist with you all in this cyber moment.
It is spring and I’m grateful for your help in removing some of the excess baggage I’ve been carrying around for so long. What a relief to see that things have changed in my being. Its curious looking back, having forgotten how long it’s been since last reflections like this came to me. This discussion is like fast-forwarding through all types of debris lying in the road. We will all come through better people, no doubt.
April 2, 2007 at 8:09 pm
John: I don’t think that you’re real.
April 2, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Hi No Person.
I agree with what you say (5, #89), it’seems true to my experience of late. However, for whom are you writing? This is 4th Way city, not only that, it’s FoFsville, which means that you will be categorised (gold alchemy, positive half of the king of hearts, tramp and power, active type, probably pretty solar), and summarily dismissed. You have a brand of Advaita going on in there, and this is sooo different (way of non-effort vs. way of effort) – or take a chill pill vs. take a drill pill.
You have an insight – it is the femimine component that the FoF has missed all these years. Bring it alongside, let it mingle. See if it purrs…
DON’T FORCE IT!
If you do it becomes its opposite and adds to the confusion.
Here’s to flower power!
Heresay.
April 2, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Xerophant Says:
April 2nd, 2007 at 12:10 am
WE are the Heart of the Absolute, the Absolute needs every single Being to BE Awaken, so HE can BE completly Awaken too( WE are all ONE ) and give HIS one-step forward Evolution. Been all Awake the Heart of the Absolute will start pumping and True change will come, so the task for those already Awaken is to HELP! “others” to Awaken, so The Miracle comes to happen.
So is up to us all to Wakeup “The TITAN”.
Dear Xerophant, or should I say Titan?
If you’re not Mr. Burton, Mr. Braverman or Mr. Haven, you better becareful with what you state. You don’t want them to start sounding like Hitler and even less to start acting like him.
Watch your step, you don’t want to ruin your own dreams. Inspiration is great but mind is reasonable. Just try to reason. Inspiration without it is just illusion.
April 2, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Dear Innernaut, I wish you speedy recovery. I was wondering what happened when you disappeared for a while. Feel well!
Perpetua – thanks so much for bringing Hafiz here. I love this poem. It’s a great point – when one feels he doesn’t need a teacher anymore. It’s much easier to follow someone, and repeat after him, that to face your own “loneliness”, or “nothingness”. The way I see it, there are some who only point, and some who want you to follow them. It’s like when you want to get to let’s say, a store, and someone (who just been there) points you the direction towards it. So you see the store in a distance and you go there yourself, with no further help, and forget completely about the guy who pointed you there. You don’t need him anymore. Why would you get hooked up on the guy who pointed you towards the store if your goal was to get to the store? Who even cares about the guy, if you only need to get to the store, right? You thank him (may be) for his directions and you just go.
That’s pretty much my relationship to John Wheeler, Adyashanti etc. They pointed towards something I was interested in finding, I happened to look and see it, and there is no need in these people anymore. They are not my teachers, they were…”road signs”. I am glad I was lucky to read them.
Wishing you great luck on your journey.
April 2, 2007 at 9:04 pm
John, if you are real, after 1 or 2 years in the FOF, if you still wish to make the claim that what I said is “vulgar”, rather than quite to the point, I’ll apologize. But until then…
April 2, 2007 at 9:28 pm
To: I See, #98,
You said: “In the last 10 years Robert has taken up teaching directly again, replacing the old Quaker-esqué style meeting format and increasing fundraising events to unsustainable levels”.
You probably don’t go to the events, but they are very definitely being sustained.
Similar inaccuracies of this nature are interspersed throughout your posting; a common form of “projecting” of one’s own limited, subjective, reality onto the whole.
April 2, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Dear Living the Questions (173) and Anonymous (179):
Your posts hadn’t come through when I submitted my #182. A number of interesting “coincidences” in these three, I think.
Dear Rita: Thank you for your well wishes. I always enjoy your posts.
Dear A Friend (183): Though I haven’t necessarily come to the same conclusions as you, I recognize a great deal of truth in what you say. Thank you for your sincerity and insight. I may have created the impression that I wish to talk everybody into leaving the school. That is not the case — only those whose time has come. Robert used to say something about how one could find the school too early, or too late. I think the same is true when it comes to leaving. And most people will leave when they are ready. My words, and those of the many others like me, are for them — trying to help with the difficult work that is only beginning when one leaves. Current members have commented on the naivete of thinking you can leave and awaken without “working on yourself.” But since they haven’t experienced this personally, who is the naive one? Myself, I found it more work to stop “working on myself” than it would have been to continue. And then my life came back to me, for good or ill. This is not directed at you, Friend, I’m just rambling a little. Again, thank you for your post.
April 2, 2007 at 9:53 pm
To: dick/Authur, 5/184/155
I like best what Leonard Cohen said to Janis: “I can’t keep track of each fallen Robin”
April 2, 2007 at 10:09 pm
186 the Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion
From my first postings you did not like me writing here. You have already removed three of my postings in the first and second part of the blog and now you are trying to discredit me.
If that’s what you want, it’s fine with me.
Rita, yes I did talk about this blog with students, one of them was visiting from the US. They were not so restrictive as you teasingly presented it.
April 2, 2007 at 10:11 pm
Dear Lust for Life, are you sure you don’t want to write me personally to malaec@yahoo.com? I hate to get lengthy here talking about things that may be of little interest to most blog participants at this point. In a way, I said it all many times already… I’ll be happy to write you personally. – for free! 🙂
Briefly – yes it is difficult to even assume that we are not this “me”. RB just plays his role, and it’s in a way a difficult role with lots of seeming humiliation. Sometimes it makes me laugh, sometimes I feel deeply compassionate. A while ago I used to judge him a lot for his behavior, now it doesn’t seem to matter, there is understanding and acceptance of what IS. What watches through him – is what watched through you or me or whoever, same consciousness. And behaviour is – what needs to be acted in a play now, precisely HOW it needs to be acted. Identification with someone’s behaviour and desire to change it just distracts you from seeing yourself, the source, consciousness within.
malaec@yahoo.com
P.S. The humor on this blog is too much! Thanks, Inmate#44, you made me laugh so hard…
April 2, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Hello dick moron,
I don’t think Turan blogs!
Mail me at TheGoldenBullet44@hotmail.com
April 2, 2007 at 10:24 pm
Dear Friend,
Thanks for your kind words. I am convinced. At least for now I will stay. But if you don’t mind I think I will stay on the fence. I have come to like it here.
There is considerable density of being in the FOF. Meanwhile Robert is getting older. His centers are weakening. Change is inevitable.
Leaders like you affect the attitudes of those that will replace him and us. What attitudes with respect to reason, fairness, practicality, and justice do you want to support? You will get old and may hope to be treated fairly for your years of service, or maybe you have a friend that you think deserves some level of consideration after giving their lives to the FOF.
I know the world is full of injustice, and I know we must transform it, but that does not mean we want to promote it or support it (wherever it comes from). I still hope my words might effect some small positive changes and give us a little more strength to clean up our act.
There will come a point when Robert is no longer fit to lead. We will want to be kind to him of course. That would be the only fair way to be.
Best wishes. I have enjoyed our discussion.
Fence Rider
April 2, 2007 at 10:35 pm
#153 lust for life
I have only a little bit of an idea how to approach this but here it goes. You mentioned not knowing the glasses are on your head and that you already locked the door. In a previous post way back somebody described a man #5 as being able to be aware of everything going on around him, the various conversations of different people, the wind, the music, different sensations in his body, etc.,etc.
This is spiritual materialism. It is the projection of some kind of super attention into the phenomenal world. Cetainly, there are powers of attention that can be developed and states where attention may do wierd things. There can be divided attention. But none of this is consciousness. Consciousness is awareness of nothing or more correctly nothingness aware of itself or “emptiness” aware of itself. Divided attention is a simulation of how things seem when one is “awake”. It is very subtle and does not necessarily help one find ones glasses. We need to apply all the powers at our disposal to do that. There is a tendency to be more aware of our surroundings.
As far as decision making and our moral compass?
Well that is the big mystery isn’t it? Wouldn’t it be nice to have some still, small voice whisper to us telling us all the right things to do so everything would turn out just peachy. Maybe some people have that, i don’t. O. said we need to train and educate the i’s (in his usual poetic way). For me it is live and learn and try to treat people and things as i would wish to be treated.
April 2, 2007 at 10:49 pm
The purpose of ‘need’ is to undo its own knot. You need a teacher/teaching because you believe ‘need’ is real; unraveled need clears reality’s image. The clear man is a mirror for others and everywhere he or she looks is more mirror. Believing you are more or less than another is insanity; we are all insane, but sometimes mirrors clear. Everything in this post and every other post in this blog is a lie, including that
April 2, 2007 at 10:56 pm
Verify, verify, verify! Here is a good example to illustrate the point that today`s truth may be tomorrow`s lie. I went to a Poems site online in order to copy my favourite poem and add it to the blog. It turns out that I did not notice that it was a fake. Even the author`s name had been adulterated. My apologies. Here is the correct version.
Ithaka
As you set out for Ithaka
hope your road is a long one,
full of adventure, full of discovery.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
angry Poseidon-don’t be afraid of them:
you’ll never find things like that on your way
as long as you keep your thoughts raised high,
as long as a rare excitement
stirs your spirit and your body.
Laistrygonians, Cyclops,
wild Poseidon-you won’t encounter them
unless you bring them along inside your soul,
unless your soul sets them up in front of you.
Hope your road is a long one.
May there be many summer mornings when,
with what pleasure, what joy,
you enter harbors you’re seeing for the first time;
may you stop at Phoenician trading stations
to buy fine things,
mother of pearl and coral, amber and ebony,
sensual perfume of every kind-
as many sensual perfumes as you can;
and may you visit many Egyptian cities
to learn and go on learning from their scholars.
Keep Ithaka always in your mind.
Arriving there is what you’re destined for.
But don’t hurry the journey at all.
Better if it lasts for years,
so you’re old by the time you reach the island,
wealthy with all you’ve gained on the way,
not expecting Ithaka to make you rich.
Ithaka gave you the marvelous journey.
Without her you wouldn’t have set out.
She has nothing left to give you now.
And if you find her poor, Ithaka won’t have fooled you.
Wise as you will have become, so full of experience,
you’ll have understood by then what these Ithakas mean.
Translated by Edmund Keeley & Philip Sherrard
Constantine P Cavafy
IMO partisans might find this offer confusing.
Well someone once said ^Confusion is a higher state^ still worthwhile having from time to time at least. In this it appears to me there is plenty for all. Enjoy!
April 2, 2007 at 11:13 pm
To all, refering to the FOF as a 4th way school:
its over!
Sel-remembering” as well as “divided attention” (as work I’s) are to be replaced by “Be”.
Message from the Teacher, via Asaf, yesterday to FOF members. Not knowing how to copy/past properly, I just hope that someone else will share with us all the integrality of the text.
It is very interesting move. Challenging, certainly hurting many.
Was it not the same when the word ‘Gods’ diseappeared, just for while though, from the 30 work I’s?
Robert Burton will not spend time convincing people who are doubting. Even, I am convinced he is willing to promote circumstancies that will clear his school from the old (students/ideas) in order to create space for the new (students/ideas).
Perhaps he feels he can reinvent himself, reinvent the School and his Teaching.
Good luck to us all.
PS: John: I have my suspect too! You are too much of a predictable apparition here…
April 2, 2007 at 11:14 pm
dick moron (#184): Great quote from Janis. That’s one of the best “angles” I’ve heard in ages!
You, sir, are no moron! Keep the excellent posts coming.
April 2, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Yesri Baba — I’ve been meaning to say this for some time now: your screen name is the best! Being a little slow, it took me a while to get it. Now every time I see it I get a laugh!
April 2, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Veronicapoe (111)
Where can the book or essay by Marlane Dasmann be found? Thanks.
April 2, 2007 at 11:47 pm
Robert makes a good profit – but a lousy prophet.
Much of our time is spent listening wide-eyed and bushy tailed, as we are told nonsense. Then we go on to discuss this nonsense amongst ourselves as though it has validity because Robert said it.
Nonsense is nonsense no matter who says it!
After the reluctance of California to fall into the Pacific Ocean in 1998 many students remarked on how much closer they felt to Robert because of his humiliation. Indeed, it did humanize him and give us the chance to express support for him in a very touching way. For me one of the most valuable emotional experiences in the school has been that students are scantily clothed and sometimes pretty well naked as they go through tough life experiences such as bereavement, divorce, financial ruin etc. To have been around people going through crises who are buffering minimally and seriously attempting to not express negative emotions is a privilege. It also means that when it is your turn to go through something you see the first, second and third line utility of suffering in public. I would see this as such a time for many of us, a time of crisis where the best one can do is try to be as transparent as possible for everyone’s benefit. I would also wish that those in positions with an obvious ‘official agenda’ and also our beloved Robert should place transparency above other interests.
Continuing with the thought on prophesy – Robert needs to do something big. He is vainglorious and ambitious. Thankfully he has desisted from going any further with his prophesies, but one must acknowledge that he took it as far as he could and then some and still threatens to relapse. His keying and interpretations are a continuation of his prophesies; it is the same part of him that seeks expression. Many of us were glad that he had changed tack and was sailing against the wind in a different direction and I think this relief at his dropping the former nonsense has allowed this newer nonsense a far more positive reception than it warrants. Ancient Egypt has provided much material for charlatans to establish a provenance for their imagined knowledge. It really is the mother lode when it comes to mumbo jumbo mines and we, the Fellowship, are working it diligently.
Surely, it is obvious to the point of causing a serious crisis of conscience that this is another of Robert’s forays into gracing the world with a new civilization that will be honored through the next millennia. We the lucky ones, will be able to look back from limbo and know that we were involved with the beginning of a new world order.
Now, this might of course all be a teacher’s tool to help us separate from our lower selves, but it might also be baloney that he can’t transform.
My picture of a teacher of Robert’s supposed level is that he would be burning off the lower in himself and replacing it with consciousness. This includes his personal sex life, shopping, favoritism, jealousy, dominance as well as the content of his teaching. Contrary to this expectation he seems to be indulging in these things more, not less. Is this how a 67 year old conscious teacher progresses – I think not.
Is this an error on my part? If Robert as a man # 7 he is a law unto himself and so is above any need to justify himself or be understood.
April 2, 2007 at 11:59 pm
I would much rather be with all of you, sit with you and enjoy your presence than read all your words about God, beauty, consciousness, awakening, man no 5, graduation, higher states, whether the Fellowship is ‘good’ or Robert is ‘bad’, whether the 4th way exists, is wrong, or Gurdieff was right or not
I would rather sit with you and enjoy a glass of wine than listen to you talk about the Work, who said what, did what to whom.. Nevertheless, this is a blog, and words have to be written, but I doubt if anything is really communicated by this except temporary satisfaction. The questions still remain
As for me, I’m just making noises to somehow participate in this exchange, but essentially, I’d rather not. Why? Because I know that I am lying..
Stephen, you are a lucky man to have reached the place of not knowing and knowing that you don’t know anything certain any more. Walt Whitman, and so many others have gone there, and found themselves at the beginning. There is nothing more to say.
Alexis
April 3, 2007 at 12:07 am
To: sheik, # 186,
I don’t either.
April 3, 2007 at 12:09 am
Dear Xerophant, A friend and everyone around,
“Friend” you’ve become Xerophant and gone into extreme ‘I’s because you couldn’t answer the questions in both 5/121 or 5/141? I’m getting slow thinking you could be someone else, and now that the Sheik mentions John’s not real, you’re probably also John, a stupid kind guy who joined after you offered him your sweet answers immediately after he asked them (That’s why Elena didn’t have time!)
And looking at the blog you’re probably also El Zorro. You’re having to fill in all the parts because you asked your little parish not to watch, listen, hear, see, or support because after thirty three years of doing it all on your own you think this is just a piece of cake.
You’re a good cheat but you hate playing when you’re loosing and this game is going too fast for you who like to take hours to think. Isn’t it interesting that you’re enacting a “friend”: the kind and understanding fellowship student that solves all the problems with measure and control? The King of Hearts;
Xerophant: The extremist in no matter what place who thinks he’s justified by divine gift? The King of Clubs and John and El Zorro, the stupid kind guy who believes the story, joins and keeps supporting the school? Is that how you look at students in your little parish? Or, are we seeing who you really are? A wolf in sheep clothing? Are you trying to show us in practice how you’ve divided into two or three different people or are you really trying to answer the question posed by “Looking for Answers” on 5/141, which asks how have you, your teacher and all of you in the inner circle, avoided developing two personalities and still support the corruption on one hand and the conscious school on the other? “Consciousness without functions? You better get some of your friends to help you out here before you continue putting your foot in it and revealing the psychopath you really are who supported the school hoping you could become as corrupted as the teacher with the blessing of not all mankind, who doesn’t count, nor justice, which doesn’t exist, but the blessing of the little parish that you so consistently instructed to forgive or buffer, everything they see.
Your friends better start looking for real solutions because your sweet words are not hard to chew, or do they think that I’m going to sit around and watch how they send you to the loony bin or the old people’s home like they do to anyone who falls apart in their paradise dream? You, who I’ve come to love and are more dear to me than all of them put together? Or at least the you who has become decent to me? Who can still be helped if we “act” now? Who they supported as unconditionally as the teacher knowing you were as corrupt as the teacher and who they tried to copy every each way but did not have half the courage nor the corrupted mind? You all might have kept fooling me for another thirty years instead of fifteen if I had not moved right in, seeing you rather distraught, but hoping to serve you and the school, not knowing, but now that I understand, don’t think I’m going to sit and watch.
For relativity, it is perhaps also true that not one of us really knew with the exception of Mr. Burton and Mr. Haven, the only two men in this school who have supported each other unconditionally, at our cost and theirs and who are desperately trying to train a new generation of trusting young people who will give credibility back to it all.
I would advice everyone around to start addressing the real issues because this is not just a play or if it is, you don’t want to play with fire. Move, but not too much, so that you don’t ruin the heart or too much damage, falls on your hands. We better talk before it gets too late for words.
April 3, 2007 at 12:18 am
“John
P.S. Bruce, Your post 150 is sheer vulgarity.”
We all have different criteria for what we would deem “vulgar”. The FOF apologists and enablers, the procurers and pimps that keep the harem full, for me that is vulgarity at it’s most profound. “Hypocrisies” -same as above.
April 3, 2007 at 12:55 am
#165 john tomnay
Very,very,very interesting.
Thank you for taking the time to write that. I am definitely going to get that book. Like Ken Wilber’s book “Integral Spirituality” this exerpt helps to clarify and reorganize bits and pieces of things i have never been able to put together.
It is so exciting to begin to connect stuff in a new way and there is so much happening now. Let’s party.
April 3, 2007 at 1:14 am
Medusa 180
We’re right there. the trick is you got to take both of the pills.
April 3, 2007 at 1:30 am
John: I don’t have the time to go back to the old forums and delete people’s comments. I certainly didn’t delete any of yours. You matter nothing to me as a means to an end, I have treated you as a person and an end in itself. I tried to have a discussion with you but you didn’t allow yourself to listen to anything that didn’t agree with your current point of view. I am not claiming that my arguments were true, but they were worth considering. I wish you all the luck, fun and good life. I have nothing against you, you just come across as someone in need, that’s all. How do you think that you come across?
I sincerely believe that you are a fake, not to discredit you (I don’t have the need or the wish to discredit you, I could just delete every one of your future comments). I can be a good judge of people’s bullshit, and your presence here reeks of it. I had my suspicions for quite some time, now I am pretty certain. As far as I can tell, the only reason you invented John was to show some of the ex-members here that they can’t prevent people from joining the FoF. You tried to discredit their efforts and make them feel powerless. I don’t really care if this blog makes more people join the FoF (I suppose it does the opposite), but I see why you would want people to believe that it does.
April 3, 2007 at 1:40 am
No person — Thanks! I’m on the mend. It’s so nice to receive so many well wishes from this little cyber community.
April 3, 2007 at 1:55 am
#205 i see said the blind man
“It is really the mother lode when it comes to mumbo-jumbo mines and we, the Fellowship, are working it diligently.”
I swear to god i laughed so hard i started crying.
Innernaut. Hope you are doing better. Yeah, it still makes me chuckle too.
April 3, 2007 at 1:56 am
Hi, Heresay. You know – you’re right in a way.
But I don’t know why am I writing or to whom… This question doesn’t come into my head. Silly I guess. It just feels like writing, so I write. Some hear, some don’t, so what. And since my machine naturally is as subtle as a baseball bat or a megaphone (queen, Martial etc.) – hence the passion and the “force”, it’s just how it manifests.
Who knows why it is all happening this way. I don’t believe in personal doing or control anymore – stuff just happens, flows through us.
But thanks for your advice, friend, and – to flower power.
April 3, 2007 at 2:01 am
Yes, watching the little ‘John’scenario unfolding on the blog has been amusing.Problem is John,after your apparant ‘humble and touchingly honest’discourse with yourself(s) as pointed out nicely by Watch Out post #208, you let it all slip badly in post #144 by judging Rita just like a FOF veteran.I’m afraid it takes a bit longer than a week in FOF to develop that special kind of arrogance…..
I may as well mention a couple of other posters that all have the same flavour and are obviously not who they are trying to pretend they are.
‘Seeker’ from a few pages back.Pretending to be an ‘outsider’.Quite laughable that attempt but probably a practice for the later incarnations of John, ‘Friend’El Zorro’ and co.
‘Former Miss America’ Pretending to be an ex student..but continuing to judge the blog from the perspective of a diehard FOF member.
I’d say ‘Friend’ is also the same person who spends so much time geting unflattering reviews of R.Burtons book Self Remembering’removed from amazon.com and flooded the recent Wikipedia FOF entry with pages of FOf propaganda therby burying from view the material that he is obviously terrified of getting out to the public.
Must be a full time job !
April 3, 2007 at 2:28 am
To Watch Out! My sentiments exactly…you want to play? You are already our guest! Welcome my friend–take that little pill will you? it used to be called the sly man’s pill–seems like you cannot swallow it.
April 3, 2007 at 2:29 am
To Yesri Baba–you talk the talk, but can you walk the walk? Party on fella!
April 3, 2007 at 2:31 am
To Innernaut, glad you are back, for a while I enjoyed the absence of your chit chat, but glad you are back to the party–it is still a lot better than some!
April 3, 2007 at 2:31 am
Another way to look at John’s false identity is that in his first question he is a shy young man from life and in the next one’s he is a “mature” man who just joined the Fellowship. A cheap hoax.
April 3, 2007 at 2:32 am
To John: show us some proof you are real–such as what is the stock price of IBM at closing on the NYSE? How can you have time to write on this blog as a stock broker? nice try!
April 3, 2007 at 2:34 am
To 42-5, regarding 294-4.
I believe I stated that there is sincerity on this blog; I am sorry you interpret my posting in such away. I do still stand by it after your comments. The only thing I can say I may have only read 10% of the blog so it is possible I missed some of the more compassionate letters you have read.
Honestly, I do not read this blog looking for advise, but mostly from curiousity. I have verified in my 15 plus years in the school and 40 plus years on earth that if I want to live more in the “Present Moment” then I am in the right place to help educate and teach me this. If this is your aim and you have something else that works for you then I wish you the best with attaining this aim.
April 3, 2007 at 3:10 am
Watchout!:#209
Can anyone translate this one? Seems to have come off some translator software that could not compute correctly. It sounds a little like a direct threat to someone the poster knows.
April 3, 2007 at 3:22 am
Alexis #207:
“Stephen , ….to reached the place of not knowing and knowing that you don’t know anything certain anymore”.
That struck a note with me. And, I dont know why!
April 3, 2007 at 3:29 am
In case you need a distraction from all this talk–tonight’s show on Discovery/The Science Channel, “Planet Earth,” is stunning, an incredible reminder of just how miraculous Life Is. peace.
April 3, 2007 at 3:36 am
#206–I SEE– “Robert makes a good profit-but a lousy prophet”.
Somewhere on this blog there is connective thought between the year 2012 and Robert. Did he make a prediction? If he did he stole something.
April 3, 2007 at 3:58 am
Mark H. — regarding Dasmann book:
Where do you live?
April 3, 2007 at 4:12 am
Dear Cake please #127. Be shocked no longer…there is no negativity being directed by any ex-student I know towards current members. Quite the opposite really. What comes across here in the written word as negative would probably come across differently if we were talking face to face.
I wonder if the same can be said for a good portion of dedicated FOF members when it comes to ex-students? Robert once said about ex-students ” Chain, chain, chain. Chain of fools”. Very kind indeed.
Off to dinner and wishing you joy.
Myself
April 3, 2007 at 4:29 am
Hello & Oh My!
I recommend Krishnamurti for utter clarity on all these issues.
There is no guru, world leader, king, man #5…whatever one wishes to call it.
There is mental illness, including narcissism.
There is also a deep longing to discover meaning, truth and the method to the madness.
There is no one answer. Any who states that there is one truth, one belief system, etc., is false.
The superstition and rules in the Fellowship of Friends are as arcane as in any old fashioned religion.
A pedophile is a pedophile. It is the most disgusting act a human being can perpetrate on an individual. Pure and simple.
All of these complications, justifications and questions, simply obfuscate the obvious.
When I was in the school, I remember, clearly, that these very basic observations were twisted into very fancy pretzel logic. My desire to have “accidentally” been chosen as member of an elite member of the “it” group overrode my human knowledge.
Critical thinking skills went out the window in order to justify my narcissistic desire to “believe” that I had found the answer.
Ridiculous!
Love!
April 3, 2007 at 5:51 am
Things fall apart;
the center cannot hold….
The best lack conviction, while the worst/
Are full of passionate intensity.
W.B.Yeats
April 3, 2007 at 7:09 am
Watchout! #189
“If you’re not Mr. Burton, Mr. Braverman or Mr. Haven, you better becareful with what you state. You don’t want them to start sounding like Hitler and even less to start acting like him.”
So you are comparing the 3 Misters you listed to Hitler? That’s a little extreme don’t you think?
April 3, 2007 at 7:25 am
In response to John, (if you do exist)
Even though I was only a member for six months I would like to give you some friendly advice.
You may not think that FOF history matters but “REAL PEOPLE” were hurt. When I joined, I knew of the history and I had the exact same outlook on it, wasn’t any of my business.
When reality hits you and trusts me it will as it has me.
You will see their tears, hear their cries and feel their pain.
One more thing, remember one can be brainwash and not even aware of it.
April 3, 2007 at 7:53 am
Thank you everyone for all the heartfelt, deep, honest, witty, funny… you name it… posts.
The blog has become my morning cup of coffee. So many of the thoughts and feelings expressed could be, were, or are my own, even the most contradictory ones. It is good, albeit not always pleasant, to see my own beliefs, current or otherwise, expressed, reflected upon, trashed, ridiculed, refuted by people I don’t even know. It feels like a healthy process. I see how subtle unquestioned beliefs pass under the radar, and I am very grateful for the scalpel precision of this blog.
Dear Confused, I really relate to the emotions you expressed in your post (5/35). So many contradictory relative truths coming from people who are as honest with themselves as they can be. And knowing that the “me” is hopelessly subjective. You wrote: “I want to know what to do now. Which choice do I have and how to use time well.” Of course, I am not aspiring to advise you what to do, but I want to share my experience with the “choice”. I went through a brief period of agonizing over the choice of leaving versus staying. I could not imagine making such an important decision. What if I was wrong? What if I just needed to make more efforts, push through the interval, and regain my work again, better than ever? But at one point it became abundantly clear that I was leaving: all the doors opened, and things were perfectly orchestrated. Not to say that it was easy and pleasant, but it felt completely right. There were no choices being made either, it was the only option. Maybe there is nothing special you can do, and however you are using your time, you are already using it well?
Dear Inner Jewels (5/80): you spoke beautifully of your “life” friends. For me, being openhearted and not condescending to my friends and not-friends “in life” has been such a gratifying and warm experience.
Dear Innernaut, I am sorry to “hear” that you were ill. I do hope you are feeling better, and I am glad to see your posts again.
Dear Inner piece (5/114), I don’t remember laughing so hard in a long time. Please share any other pearls of wisdom you might have! This one was extremely useful.
Looking forward to seeing some of you in a few days!
With love.
April 3, 2007 at 8:05 am
Whoa, now hold on there a minute! Are you folks saying that “John,” who before our very eyes not long ago rode off into the sunset in search of the miraculous and joined the Fellowship, is a FRAUD? That nice young man whose questions many here took the time to address with sincerity and care? Surely no one would stoop so low. I wanna see the evidence.
April 3, 2007 at 9:26 am
#169 ex-lax 101
Reading your post reminded me of a story l heard. I don’t know how true it is or whether the tribe ever really existed or if it is a romanticising of aboriginal life but it often brings tears to my eyes when i think of the draconian ways we punish each other(and ourselves).
In this tribe whenever someone committed an offence against the rules of the tribe no matter what the offense this would be the punishment. All the members of the tribe would gather in a large circle around the offender and one by one each member would go up and face the offender and relate all the memories of the good and helpful things the offender had done for them in his life. This was repeated over and over with all the members and then the offender was invited back into the group.
What a different world it could be.
April 3, 2007 at 9:44 am
We must become the change
we want to see in the world.
******
Schools are for those who need them
and know that they need them.
When you no longer need them,
know that you can leave them.
Do it now.
Be,hold,do,back,do,BE!
So glad I did.
(4 sacred breaths of freedom.)
April 3, 2007 at 9:49 am
To: Innernaut, 5/183,
In 5/170 I made a point of not mentioning the FOF and preserving the general tone you had established. The point I tried to make was not tied to any particular day and age.
Regarding your last paragraph, do you think it’s not possible to have the “spiritual ego” broken down in the FoF? (I would say “spiritual ego” is a division of F.P.)
I also concur with you about greed/identification with conciousness and consciousness not being compatible.
April 3, 2007 at 10:38 am
Re: GOlb as Rumi 5#99
Very nice story. However, the man who swallowed the snake while he was asleep need only to be aware of himself and knowledge of an inner change that took place – then placed a finger in very strategic place in his body and this malady would be regurgitated out of him and therefore transform him back to his true self. No need for King, excessive eating, battering, unnecessary suffering, mindlessness, etc. Just minor transformation.
Recognize that this snake, or ‘inner worm eating at you’ (as Gurdjiev might have put it), was not swallowed during sleep, but was always there to begin with for you to wake up to and act on tranforming with strategic fingers placed. This is way of clever man on 4th way, as well as other ways, allways. Try not to sleep too soundly.
Are you talking to that fool of Rumi, blogger?
April 3, 2007 at 11:12 am
Havn’t read many of the postings but the thing i found myself wanting to say was;
a)school is insignificant in relation to the greater journey each of us has to make;we chose this one because we sensed that it would get us closer to home.
b)we get off the bus when we think thats as close as that particular bus is going to get to our particular destination-(we arn’t all going to the same house)
c)we are each responsible for deciding when to exit,no one else,certainly not the driver-he may be lonely,and there is no graduating,you may just decide you can’t stand the smell and would prefer to walk for a while…you will still get there.(there are a few fof students who left previous schools,and RB (asked to leave) so one can’t have the “hell” poiunt of view without condemming your own teacher (note post 4 295)
d) if you sit close to the driver your gonna smell his farts and have a little extra to talk about when you get off, but rest assured EVERYONE will get off becuase the bus isn’t your destination.
e)if you’re after exact change,you won’t find it inside the driver.
April 3, 2007 at 11:37 am
Medusa Says:
April 2nd, 2007 at 6:33 pm
Dearest Yesri Baba , Pinpointing the issues & few
Who are you???!!?? WHERE are you ??
How come that in my everyday life I seem to be surrounded exclusively by a mixture of Retarded Zorrors , Nasty Little Lambs , visionary Howard Carters and various hypnotized dis-members ??!?
It’s becoming almost like being in-out of the Matrix…can you please wear a black latex suit in the future, so that I can recognize you and feel in better company ??
The answer may be already there! Please read again #169
April 3, 2007 at 1:13 pm
To GOlb #241: “The answer may be already there”!
I did. OK class every body back to post 5-169.
April 3, 2007 at 3:48 pm
Trust me.
The True Story Behind
the Largest Mass Murder-Suicide
in History Airs on PBS:
Jonestown:
The Life and Death of Peoples Temple
Airs on PBS: AMERICAN EXPERIENCE
Monday, April 9, 2007
(check local listings)
Anyone want some cool aid?
Excerpts:
“I did allow Jones to think for me because I figured that he had the better plan,” says former Peoples Temple member Hue Fortson, whose wife and infant son were among the more than 900 who died in Guyana after drinking cyanide-laced fruit punch. “I gave my rights up to him. As many others did.”
Manipulator:
One method Jones used to increase his power over Temple members was to divide up natural family units. Adult children who associated too much with their parents were suspect. Wives were not expected to live with their husbands. Sex was discouraged. Marriages and relationships were engineered by Jones. In this way, Jones made sure everyone’s most important relationship was to him. And he asked them all to call him “Father.”
Charismatic:
At religious meetings, Jones demonstrated extraordinary powers. He read minds, healed cancers and predicted the future. What many did not know was that loyal Temple members had been dispatched to root through garbage cans and medicine cabinets for private information, or pretend to be blind or disabled to achieve the desired effects. Although these members knew the subterfuge was wrong, they justified their actions to further the socialist egalitarian state that Jones was creating.
Abusive:
More troubling were a growing list of abuses. Jones made sexual advances to Temple members, and he also oversaw beatings, “confessions,” and humiliations of Temple members in front of the rest of the group. But members did not feel free to share their feelings about “Father.” In fact they were encouraged to inform on each other — children were rewarded for informing on their parents — and the constant work and all night meetings kept most of them in a state of exhausted confusion. Furthermore, each member cherished the moment when Jones would take them aside and reveal that that member was truly the only one Jones trusted.
Exposed:
In this environment, some of the most trusted inner circle became disillusioned and left the Temple. San Francisco Chronicle reporter Marshall Kilduff couldn’t get his own paper to print the stories he uncovered by talking to disaffected members, and so along with Phil Tracy, he approached New West magazine. Despite the efforts of Jones and the Temple leadership to block publication, the magazine reported the allegations of the defectors and apostates in its August 1977 issue.
They had been manipulated by Jones, exploited and confused. But to the end, the congregation of Peoples Temple believed in the promise of progressive social changes that seemed just out of reach of a flawed, cynical world [and themselves].
Any of this sound just a little familiar?
What will ‘Hand of God 2’ reveal about FOF?
Those who cannot remember the past
are condemned to repeat it.
Reason in Common Sense
George Santayana
1863 – 1952
Philosopher, poet, literary
and cultural critic.
More:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/jonestown/index.html
Even looks like a youthful RB here:
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/amex/jonestown/gallery/g_05_c.html
http://www.pbs.org/previews/amex-jonestown/
http://www.variety.com/awardcentral_article/VR1117955226.html
April 3, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Dear friends
in the last 4 weeks I was traveling around the world with Kiran and what this and the many inspired moments made clear to me that there is no point for me to stay at the restricted world of the Sequence in the School.
There exists a life out there that is so amazingly rich and beautiful and taken in the right way has pulled me to unknown heights of states and experiences. Not all easy to take but all pointing to a realm that I first entered the school for to come closer and now it comes in this form.
What I have seen over the 16 years in the school is that it gave me a sense of what to live for and gave me some hints how to get there and I thank Robert and the gods for this opportunity. For me unlike for many friends, the form of refinement, of appreciation for the arts was nothing new it had always been part of my education and my life.
It is clear now that I have received what this form and level of school is able to offer and I do not want to stay in the position of so many who have become disillusioned but think there is nothing better out there. Those who feel they cannot be awake more often but it is all their own fault and the form of the school at least keeps them making the few efforts they are performing.
In the studies with Kiran I am learning a new way of looking at the facts that do not need to buffer or explain them away and a new picture is forming in me as I know it only from the time I joined the school. One of the new ideas is that of the four elements which is also the basis of the common deck of cards and an Idea that Plato brought to the west.
This tool includes but goes beyond that of the body-types and can give an explanation for so many things that were unclear to me. For example I now clearly understand that Roberts teaching is an Earth-teaching. This is why he focuses so much on earth values like structure, form, repetition. Earth is also heaviness and it is about the unchanging, the basics.
As you all know in the FOF everything is regulated nothing is left to chance, how we take a picture with RB, how we stand in line, how we participate in events, what we can say in dinners, etc. All this expresses an earth teaching and it is clear that the gods had to choose a teacher who had this in his essence to build a foundation.
However everything has its time of youth, maturity and decline and eventually everything is turning into its opposite. I feel this point has come for the school now, the form is no longer inspiring to wake up but promotes a chain of sleep and group behavior.
The teaching is mainly on words and numbers, and giving a sense that changing them is an achievement in itself. It is crystallizing meaning and deviating from the wonder that occurs if one perceives the multitude of meaning in everything and the symbolic nature of our existence.
The people that are still having no doubt are probably Earth characters they form the structure and skeleton of the organization, they have little flexibility and are proud of following a form to the detail. This is not for me as I am not mainly an earth element but also because I feel I have absorbed enough of it to give me the grounding I was missing before.
However now in my new connection with the Gods and Kiran I see a new world emerging, the Air element, that is about dissolving structure and boundaries, about flowing and moving, about having no place to rest and to built ones fortress. This is true and happening to me both externally but also internally, in my emotional and mental believes and perceptions. Giving me back the enthusiasm and illuminating a lighter heart.
I start to see as I always aspired, that words are nothing but pointers to a silent reality and the fixation on one or the other word is a limitation that eventually has to be left behind. I can see the power of information in my life and in the healing tool that Kiran invented, it transcends time and space. It is not the realm of consciousness but it is the bridge towards it.
There is nothing anymore I have to look down upon or to look up to, nothing that is outside me or the school that I am in and there is nothing inside as well. I understand these words of saints now not as reality but as a guide to how to think and feel that leaves all the black and white, the right and left and goats and the sheep behind to get a gimps of undivided experience, that which is eternal friendship is built upon. I hope to meet you there now and forever.
Lovely Loreta
If you want to write me:
loreta@inergetix.com
April 3, 2007 at 5:01 pm
Dear inner “piece” (5/#114),
Thanks for that one; that’s one of the best laughs I’ve had while reading this blog.
Pulled from the web:
“Awareness without action is worthless.”
-Dr. Phil
April 3, 2007 at 5:36 pm
Howard Carter (#238):
“Regarding your last paragraph, do you think it’s not possible to have the “spiritual ego” broken down in the FoF? (I would say “spiritual ego” is a division of F.P.)”
I can only speak for myself. It was not possible for me, though going through the FOF felt like an essential leg of the journey (the bus analogy by The Third Pig in #240 seems particularly apt). Not that the journey is ended — just that the spiritual breakdown I underwent (there may be more coming, who knows) had a transformative power that boosted me over a nasty wall that I had hit. My own spiritual breakdown occurred after I left the school, and required “abandoning the system” along with most of the FOF beliefs and concepts. So you can see how my subjectivity would make it seem like these were all necessary steps, and would make it difficult for me to see how someone could have the same kind of transformative experience inside the FOF.
I certainly cannot presume to say what is possible or not possible for others (though that hasn’t always stopped me, of course). If this “breaking down” works for you while remaining in the FOF, then I wish you all the best.
We used to talk of the idea of “ladders.” Maybe I’m writing for anyone else going my particular way, while others will get what they want and need doing things that were impossible for me.
Good luck.
April 3, 2007 at 6:01 pm
For those who are having a confused time deciding which spiritual path to follow, here is a comparison of the different spiritual paths available (including the 4th Way and non-duality). It may help your decision making.
Taoism : Shit happens
Buddhism : If shit happens it’s not really shit
Islam : If shit happens it’s the will of Allah
Protestantism: Shit happens because you don’t work hard enough
Judaism : Why does this shit always happen to us?
Hinduism : This shit happened to us before
Catholicism : Shit happens because you’re bad
Hare Krishna : Shit happens, rama rama
TV Evangelism : Send more shit
Atheism : No shit
Jehovah’s Witness : Knock, knock, shit happens
Hedonism : There’s nothing like a good shit happening
Christian Science : Shit happens in your mind
Agnosticism : Maybe shit happens, maybe it doesn’t
Existentialism : What’s shit anyway?
Stoicism : This shit doesn’t bother me
Rastafarianism : Let’s smoke this shit
The Fourth Way : We really need this shit
Non-duality : Who is it that needs this shit?
April 3, 2007 at 6:11 pm
Golb as Rumi. I just read post 169.Somehow I missed it first time around..
I’m willing to give it a go.
.Sorry eveybody.I love you.
April 3, 2007 at 6:57 pm
“Post 5-169 is one of the very, very few posts in this blog that ‘deserves’ to be that long” Of course, I create that opinion and its meaning. And you create me creating you reading this post with the opinions I created you to create! Got it? OK, good. Go back to actively knowing nothing – the only intelligent place for mind to reside: another opnion you created me to create for you.
April 3, 2007 at 7:03 pm
You-me-us-they #5/202 reports:
“…refering to the FOF as a 4th way school: its over!
Sel[f]-remembering” as well as “divided attention” (as work I’s) are to be replaced by “Be”.”
Looks like Robert has caught the “Be” influence virus!
I applaud the move. He cuts to the chase. He abandons “the System.” He’s in step with the times. He goes Ram Dass (“Be here now”) one better on the parsimony scale.
Hurray!
April 3, 2007 at 8:06 pm
#219 reckless
No, i am just crawling around like most of us. I can be a little reckless with words, with a generous portion of b.s.. But i am not so whipped that i am afraid to try to express stuff i have experienced and my changing understandings in as fresh of a way as possible. LIke Alexis said it is all just words and lying. It is funny to think one might be trying to impress someone considering the anonymous nature of the blog. I mean, i know Bruce, and Tim Campion and maybe a few others and i could give my name and some people would just say oh him he is writing this stuff he is full of it! But if you think about it we are kind of just writing stuff to these imaginary characters in our heads or we are kind of just writing to ourselves, but isn’t that how it always is?
April 3, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Huge world #230
“A pedophile is a pedophile, it is the most disgusting act a human being can perpetrate on an individual. Pure and simple.”
Easy there Bill O. As much as i have heard all RB’s partners were adults. As far as disgusting acts go i think it may make it into the top ten. Let’s try to tighten up the thinking a bit.
April 3, 2007 at 8:49 pm
I went on Wikipedia, FOF.
What a mess!
In comparison, this blog is a “salon”, with poetry, virtual musical and visual intervals included !
A bit spicy, at time, but so friendly, civilised and sharing orientated…
The post on “total responsibility” is worth noticing (5/169). What a gift!
This kind of active generosity we want to keep verifying in ourselves (may “my” discovery be “yours”) and others (may “your” discovery be “mine”).
We ARE examples, inspiration and guidance for each other!
Along the way, opposition, contraddiction, absence of collaboration may be seen as necessary answers originating from one unique need: how to experience the the truth.
I love Gurdjieff since I met him (via books and a former 4th Way School named the FOF).
The turn taken a year ago by Roert Burton, introducing and promoting the Sequence never made it into “me”, as powerfully as the so called “system”. Why, I do not know… Just recording what is.
I will take the time to type, here, a list of 10 questions anyone should try to answer in order to “think” (sorry for the “mind” being the obstacle for many of you) in “definite order”.
I did not created them, they are part of the original Gurdjieff teaching.
I am not pretending this will bring you to the “present” (it could though!) may it help you think by yourself, for yourself.
This, as possible intelligent start, might bring you elswhere, as it did for me many times.
Try ! Be sure that you will never see a pen, a bulb light or a pan in the same manner.
What about the FOF ?
What about a blog ?
What about “you” ?
Ok, here is the sharing:
-“Let each one of you take whatever object, ask the following questions about it and answer according to your knowledge and material.
1 Its origine.
2 The cause of its origine.
3 Its history.
4 Its qualities and attributes.
5 The objects it is in contact with or having a relation with.
6 Its use and apllications.
7 Its effects and consequences.
8 What this object explains and what it gives proof to.
9 Its end or future.
10 Your opinion, the causes and reasons of this opinion.
Good luck and thank you all for your generosity.
April 3, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Former and current FOFers who were brought to the U.S. on an R-1 visa and exploited by the FOF should report the abuse to the DHS ICE Tipline. Your identity will be protected. Call 1-866-DHS-2-ICE or 1-866-347-2423. see website for more information: http://www.ice.gov/pi/investigations/publicsafety/humantrafficking.htm#trafficking
April 3, 2007 at 10:10 pm
Well, this is going to be stupid and convoluted but i don’t give a shit.
GOlb. as rumi #241 repeated a post from Medusa which asked where certain posters “were” which i responded to. Now, i had recieved a bad vibe from the snake story from GOlb and had kind of mocked it. So now i tend toward a critical eye when a post comes up from GOlb. So I am wondering what he was refering to in post 169 comparing who Medusa asked about and how they related to that post. Were they the misled and ignorant creating their own reality(which i am confirming right now) or the Hawiian therapist or the criminally insane or the narrator? What the hell was GOlb. trying to communicate. I leaned towards some kind of slight because of the projection of my dislike of the snake story.
My response to Medusa had been something like “we are already there, the trick is to take both of the pills.” This is in relation to her “matrix” reference(and i guess you would have to remember what the pills did for that to make any sense). Then i remembered what the essence of post 169 was about that any changes that are going to happen occur within ourselves, any healing in the world comes from us, changing ourselves. Which is what my response was suppose to communicate. But then why did GOlb repeat what i said. Maybe he didn’t read my post. But if he did what did he think i meant. That we were some kind of disembodied spirits hovering over her shoulder to help her along the way (ahhhh… somebody beat this snake outa me!!!). But good has come of it all since now i know GOlb is just as smart as me and now i like him (her?).
April 3, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Another way to see how John is a fake is that in his first post he feigns to be a sincere and shy man and in his other posts, he’s a “mature” person who’s seen it all.
Having read as far as post 242.
In the strive to answer Dick Moron’s message:
“If you’re not Mr. Burton, Mr. Braverman or Mr. Haven, you better be careful with what you state. You don’t want them to start sounding like Hitler and even less to start acting like him.”
So you are comparing the 3 Misters you listed to Hitler? That’s a little extreme don’t you think?
I don’t think so, and here is why.
Cult behavior is no different to fascist behavioral and although you can find a thousand different degrees of extreme action, they all have the same principles.
In Hitler: A leader who justifies himself by the will of the Gods and the good of his people in a struggle for freedom.
In the Fellowship: Influence C, the school, awakening with the use of subliminal language such as: the last school on the planet therefore, the last conscious being on the planet, therefore, the last chance for you to work on yourself.
In Hitler: A whole nation is drawn to support him convinced of his righteousness and declares war on the rest of the world, killing not only six million Jews and twenty million Russians but french, English and anyone else who happened to oppose them.
In the Fellowship throughout its years, between students and non students, a total of fifteen thousand people have been led to believe in the integrity of it all, sincerely supporting it with money, work and love. Fortunately no one has been directly killed yet but some have died, unattended and unaddressed, in fact asked to be taken of the roster as if they had never existed as a student, to leave no trace; some have gotten ill, unattended and unaddressed, many have been hurt, unattended and unheard and the few that are still supporting it can do so only in as much as they don’t question it. Cult and fascism start getting closer.
In Hitler’s Germany, the argument that supported the cause was the German’s superior race.
In Mr. Burton’s Fellowship of Friends, the argument that supports the cause is the “chosen” ones by influence C to evolve, superior to the “six billion dead outside the Fellowship”, repeat: “two thousand chosen ones v.s. Six billion dead people outside of the Fellowship boundaries”, that is, the two thousand people in the Fellowship of Friends, against all humanity alive today. Most students have tried to dismiss the “ridiculousness” of such statements but there is nothing ridiculous about them, they are deeply serious, ingrained and unexamined and attract the small ego of anyone who identifies with the idea of “saving” humanity.
In Hitler’s Germany the higher white race justified war and every single dead by the idea that they were saving humanity.
In the Fellowship, all actions are justified with the idea that they are saving humanity and each individual by awakening him, please read Xerophant’s text carefully:
Xerophant Says:
April 2nd, 2007 at 12:10 am
WE are the Heart of the Absolute, the Absolute needs every single Being to BE Awaken, so HE can BE completely Awaken too( WE are all ONE ) and give HIS one-step forward Evolution. Been all Awake the Heart of the Absolute will start pumping and True change will come, so the task for those already Awaken is to HELP! “Others” to Awaken, so The Miracle comes to happen.
So is up to us all to Wakeup “The TITAN”.
In Hitler’s Germany, the many individuals who supported him particularly in the concentration camps declared on trial that they were “serving”, the state, the dictator, the authority, the furher, “Hail Hitler”, the higher race, the nation.
In The Fellowship, the inner circle justifies its actions with exactly the same theory. They are “serving”; influence C, influence C in flesh and blood, that is Mr. Burton who, every time he is defied tells students how they are opposing influence C, the School, higher School.
Hitler’s Germany was supported mainly by the middle class most of which joined the military. Beautiful, absolutely trimmed uniforms incited the individuals to a feeling of self worth. Beautiful young people sang the furher’s anthems, dressed like divine men. Germany had never looked better.
In Mr. Burton’s school, the inner circle, which mainly gave up their lives to live at Isis or go and open centres around the world, holds the form with the uniform of beauty and justifies the great achievements of the Fellowship by the beautiful gardens, the statues and the fountains, the theatron and the prytaneium. Young men dress like cupids come out of Gucci and unconditionally serve Mr. Burton and the School.
In Hitler’s Germany, the Absolute power of the Furher goes Absolutely unquestioned.
In the Fellowship, the Absolute power of Mr. Burton goes Absolutely unquestioned. Please read carefully:
WE are the Heart of the Absolute, the Absolute needs every single Being to BE Awaken, so HE can BE completely Awaken too( WE are all ONE ) and give HIS one-step forward Evolution. Been all Awake the Heart of the Absolute will start pumping and True change will come, so the task for those already Awaken is to HELP! “others” to Awaken, so The Miracle comes to happen.
So is up to us all to Wakeup “The TITAN”.
Beautiful as it sounds when one looks at the myriad contradictions that come in the actual practice of such statements what cannot help but look more carefully. The tragedy that the German nation has had to live with after supporting Hitler is much more significant than the small group of people that have supported Mr. Burton and it is no coincidence that there are very few German students in the Fellowship. They are probably a lot more careful than the rest of us about absolutely supporting without questioning themselves.
In general terms, these are a few of the aspects that make “cult” in the Fellowship, no different to extreme political behavior in dictatorial nations.
The real tragedies come when we look closely at the life of the individuals:
In Hitler’s germany, unaccountable men were chased and are still being chased to give account for their crimes.
In the Fellowship, a small “blog” of people is coming back with big and small accounts.
Sections of Hitler’s germany are still extreme enough to disallow any questioning of fascism.
In the Fellowship, many students and ex-students are confused enough to promote the continuation of the Fellowship without a deep understanding of the issues involved.
But it becomes even more tragic when we look closer at the personal life of the individuals involved.
Many student’s in the Fellowship of Friends had to give up a considerable portion of their lives to support the School. The most painful ones are those that had to give up their children. While it might have looked reasonable then, many of them have been unable to resolve the suffering around it. In not being able to deal with the real suffering in it, they are buffering it and continuing to support the Fellowship with unnecessary suffering for themselves and two thousand other people. Since the Fellowship promotes the idea that blood ties are accidents in our life and at the same time does not develop ties between the students by strangling the second line, these individuals are the loneliest in the Fellowship. They are also the ones that are higher in the inner circle. A few of them have been able to resolve their drama with great compassion for their children, themselves and the Fellowship of Friends but most of them are going, unresolved.
Other students gave up their lives or only half of their lives. They continued to support the Teacher unconditionally, give most of their time working in the school and abandoning their personal lives justified by the “sacrifice” they were making towards a “higher cause.”
In condoning the Teacher’s personal sex life, they condoned their own personal sex life, no matter how deviated or infra sexual it became.
In condoning their own behavior of abandoning their personal life to a higher cause, they abandoned a good number of wives or husbands, children, connections to the bigger world outside the school, the nation and humanity. And they also abandoned their friends. Even the newspapers were banned.
As time passed, the consistent progression of these traits, developed a particular human being that divides into two very distinct people. One who lives a reduced to nothing personal life and one who lives a blown up role within the Community of the Fellowship. They became the unconditional supporters of a cause against everything and everyone, including themselves.
Amongst students, different degrees of this illness have developed, because even the last one of us has had to endure the contradictions and built up buffers to go along with them, have it. Even in the centres amongst people who have never been at Isis, the cold “form” of the school has pervaded and distanced students from each other.
I sincerely believe that we can “cure” ourselves of this illness, individually or collectively and that there’s no “ill” that does not bring something “good” and no “good” that does not bring some “ill”, but before we can address any healing we need to acknowledge the fact that we are sick.
As I have consistently repeated in my postings, there are truly great and beautiful aspects about the Fellowship of Friends but they are not the palm trees or the rampant corruption of our lives. Change is necessary and I will continue to question as long as I see the potential of the Fellowship damaging even further, my husband, my daughter or the people I would have liked to share my life with.
April 3, 2007 at 11:02 pm
The road to “OZ” is not linear and reaching OZ was actually not Dorothy’s ultimate aim. Dorothy longed to go “Home” to Higher Centres. In order to do so she needed the loving companions of intelligence, courage and Heart.
As noble and extraordinary as the senses may be…Saint Paul states it beautifully when he writes in his Letters to the Corinthians, “And, now we see through a glass darkly, but then face to face…
For now we are known, but then we shall know even as we are known.” “i”, for one have always been “in love” with The Teacher, Robert and The FOF and everything about Rennaisance, Isis and Appollo. And, yes “i” received many “stinging” photographs, exercizes and quite humiliating
“put-downs” to my “mechanics”. It has taken years for me to understand how necessary they were for the Silence I can turn to deep within today…
What are your thoughts??? Is Gratitude perhaps the Highest of all emotions?
For now, “i” am going inward for “The Kingdom of Heaven is Within You”…Yes, YOU!!! (ALL OF YOU)!
April 3, 2007 at 11:13 pm
“What is the difference between the FOF and any one of the number of Islamic extremest groups that are causing such commotion these days ?”
—–
One of the main difference is the FOF espouses non-violence. If you commit a violent act you are automatically banished from the school according to official guidelines.
The FOF is a peaceful organization. Students are pacifists, not warriors.
April 3, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Why I love the Fellowship,
For all the bad things people have to say about the Fellowship it does have many virtues and it can a very amazing experience for a person to become a member and have states/personal evolution with this organization.
I am an American, so for me breaking the identification around money and spending time with people with such different/out of the box views of life was a wonderful experience.
Living at Isis and in centers created being and was for the most part a very joyuous.
Isis was for me a very magical place. Every time I visited and lived there I learned about myself and had the most wonderous states and memorable adventures. Nothing bad ever happened to me and the teacher was a fun, interesting and myserious character to listen to and get to know.
The man whom Shiek met in the first introductory meeting he attended is not a charlatan. He is one of the most sincere students I met and I will never forget a reading he did before a luch with Robert from Midsummers Night Dream. I felt every word and had a state that was incredible and saw myself in ways I can only begin to describe.
Anything you did at Isis, or the center, could lead to a situation that brought about new understanding that could never be had in any other way.
When I left the school it was not my choice, but just as I had been brought into the school I was taken out again without my say so. Of course I began to have some judgement I’s, even posted on this blog, but in the sense the school was like a kindergarten for people on the path. Once you mature and become a first grader kindergarten seems silly, but when you are in kindergarten it is great. I loved kindergarten!!! Now lets start first grade with a blast (Sorry I am a queen).
The magic of an evening with students- the hydrogens- you feel like you are going to explode.
Yes it may be true that Fellowship students become “experience junkies” but those experiences can change you and make you realize that they ultimately are not the key to being more awake, just a fun perk.
I think where Robert goes wrong is that he takes himself too seriously. He seems to really believe all the gloom and doom and unfortunately he expresses a lot of negative emotions. If he just lightened up alittle and actually loved us as the children we are, he would get much more of our money because he would be easier to love. As it is he drives people away with his exlusiveness and obsessions to his own detriment. The students are for the most part beautiful people it hurts to leave them. I don’t know how much of the FOF is a scam and how much is not, but if you think you need to join the Fellowhsip by all means do so and then leave when you have had enough. It won’t hurt you.
Love.
FAS
P.S. I love you Equinox and No Person.
April 4, 2007 at 12:17 am
Re: John #144
John, good for you. It’s a much better feeling to affirm than to reject (nothing to do with consciousness, but it does feel better).
When there’s nothing wrong, there’s nothing wrong. When we begin to see something wrong, hopefully it’s only that we see something more right. Again, nothing wrong.
April 4, 2007 at 2:37 am
Things rank and gross in nature, possess it merely!!!
So many posts like flowers in a garden. Another meeting ground for many to join and asicalate each other. So many beliefs. Yes, Believing. That’s the key…
If you wish to fight in the war it wouldn’t be the best idea to start listening to -insert pacifist figure here (eg. Rigoberta Menchu- would it?
Whatever belief you choose, your mind will find evidence for it. And then, you have contradictions. So you should work on a strong belief system…
It’s what makes following someone else’s teachings questionable for those who do not and in turn might create friction between the two parties.
At the same time in this age with all its networks of communication we are able to learn about many different cultures and lifestyles so that we can give everyone a chance at their own path to evolution.
We are inside a beautiful temple where to look to the outside we have a choice of many different windows. Each of which shows a different perspective of the same whole. Are you willing to look out through every single window? AHA!
so many religions, lifestyles… And they rank and gross in nature.
Embrace all of them.
Forget the “pretty” and remember how you just REALLY want that piece of heaven.
Ever since I can remember nothing has really changed.
My experience with the Fellowship of friends was a positive one. I have wonderful memories. And I can go in peace. Sure there’s this and that which you seem to protest at like a child disgusted at the foam from a dog’s mouth.
Not very different from the rest of the world is it? Nothing will ever be. So stop running away. Stop dreaming. It’s beautiful already.
Was it perhaps that you expected so much more?
Why not be satisfied and content with the world as it is?
I left blaming others when it was really I who couldn’t keep up and even now I get “I’s” that have me pondering on leaving my current lifestyle. Kinda funny.
in my “solar” airs I bid you adew my darlings.
April 4, 2007 at 3:02 am
Veronicapoe (228)
I live in Seattle. I knew Marlane, once upon a time, and would be interested in reading her story.
Mark
FOF member 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
April 4, 2007 at 4:09 am
Dear Medusa,
If you want to meet “Pinpointing the Issues” I would suggest calling Clara. If its not her they think enough alike that you won’t be disappointed. Yesri is farther away.
April 4, 2007 at 4:35 am
On a lighter note to many of the heartfelt and serious post, here’s an old story.
The Egyptological nature of the current version of FOF brought to mind a memory of my early days as a member. I think it was 1976 when the first USA showing of the Tutankhamun treasures was exhibited at the National Gallery of Art in Washington DC. I happened to be there with Mr. Burton and his entourage at the time. I remember dutifully getting to the Gallery entrance way before opening and standing at the front of the line in sub-freezing temperatures with dear Peter Bishop for 2 or 3 hours in order to hold a choice position before the hoards arrived. Just before the doors opened, RB waltzed to the front of the line and we went in. There was quite an array of artifacts and inscribed tablets etc., but all I can remember is RB’s fascination by all the gold and jewelry. Of course this was the period when Meissen porcelain figurines of chubby cherubs was thought to release higher hydrogens in students.
I guess the main shock of the Tutankhaman show was the discovery that the photographer on the expedition was one Harry Burton.
For anyone interested, H. Burton’s photographs of the opening of the tomb are presently on display at the Metropolitan Museum in NY.
Now back to more serious topics. Watchout!
April 4, 2007 at 6:30 am
“….to reached the place of not knowing and knowing that you don’t know anything certain anymore…”
Gee, sounds like someone’s brain has been fried. Is that a noble achievement? Maybe I’m missing something here, but its probably hell to go shopping in a state like this!
“Be,hold,do,back,do,BE!”
Do-be-do-be-do dearie!!!
April 4, 2007 at 6:40 am
Dear Piglet,
“we get off the bus when we think thats as close as that particular bus is going to get to our particular destination-(we arn’t all going to the same house)”
One thing for certain, dear, we are all bozos on this bus.
BTW, qu’est-ce que c’est arn’t?
April 4, 2007 at 8:31 am
I was in the school 22 years. It can be hard to leave, one must break out of the egg like a chick and hatch yourself back into life. As Gurdjieff said to give up your will to a teacher for a period of time in order to develop you own will, it follows that at some point you must retake your will and go forward into the world. Now I’ve been out for 10 years I look back with no regrets. I’m not satisfied with my level of consciousness. I have enough knowlege, I need more being. I’m not more awake or less awake than I was then. I’m more awake when I do the work, and less so when I don’t.
All the time I knew Robert he always reminded us, always to be present. He drove it home, he expressed it so clearly and positively. He never ceased to remind us to be present, to be in the moment. The continuous valuing of the present moment. Some say it’s hard, some say it’s easy, the one thing is that you always have to do it, to be there, always.
You can do it anywhere.
Good luck to all.
April 4, 2007 at 9:04 am
If someone could send me Bonita’s essay, or Marlane Dassman’s, I would be grateful. My email is groundhogray@gmail.com. Maybe the guy who is planning the FOF Wiki might be interested in them too.
April 4, 2007 at 9:44 am
Clara Elena Gutierrez Says:
April 3rd, 2007 at 10:50 pm
Another way to see how John is a fake is that in his first post he feigns to be a sincere and shy man and in his other posts, he’s a “mature” person who’s seen it all.
To clara, a week ago you were in the FOF, now you call them Nazis etc–? and you are not a phony? you fill in the blanks…
To Yesri Baba, yes the funny part of this blog is that we are conversing but may have been in the FOF many years apart, have never met, and probably never will–pretty wild when you think about it! That bus analogy makes a lot of sense all of a sudden!
To fedagent–you would not be that same John by any chance would you?
To Clara, am I reading you right and are you actually comparing your husband to a Nazi? Far out girl–you should chill a little! Thank goodness he does not read this blog!
nner Piece–Great post
Here is one little suggested addition:
FOF Discussion on the Blog: This is Some Serious Shit!
April 4, 2007 at 11:56 am
Dear Lust for Life,
my I add some reflections on your message #153.
We don’t have to experience ‘ever-present awareness’, as a form of control of the machine, all the time. But this awareness/consciousness/god/spirit – there are many names to it – is experiencing us, better through us, all the time anyway.
We keep making choices and taking decisions of course (one part of the machine prevails or the other), and some of us keep learning from experience, some not, and most of us want to start treating people the way we would like being treated.
The difference is, no part in the machine takes the ownership of any decision.
Could it be something similar to ‘not being identified’ or ‘not taking oneself too seriously’, even the very noble-oriented parts of ourselves? Probably; we all learned many good things by now. Anyway, there is no separate entity from God in the world; therefore human being has nothing on his own. It even doesn’t exist, without god/spirit/consciousness creating him each moment.
How come? When all these people were repeating over and over through hundreds of years ‘God created everything’, they literally meant this. Everything.
No exceptions.
Is there anything I create? Yes, but you are nothing but God, creating himself/itself anew moment to moment. Is there anything I choose? It looks like, but all happens within this consciousness/awareness/god/spirit.
As soon as we separate ourselves from God (consciousness): me-person, and you-God, we are trapped by our minds, that we can do and choose something without God attending it. (We even start thinking that we lost God, we start looking for God, thinking that to find him – is the best aim one can have in life, and the fourth way seeker starts chasing consciousness).
When I look at the well-known ‘man doesn’t have consciousness and will’, ‘machine cannot do’ – it’s all about the same thing, about the machine which thinks it exists, when if fact it doesn’t.
So, in a way, we do make choices, without experiencing that it is me making a choice, having base in this awareness which we are created in.
Much love to all.
April 4, 2007 at 2:42 pm
Re: Post 184
“And even with all its shortcomings, can the FOF be replaced? The wonderful people, the beauty, the continuing focus on the present I spoke of in my last letter. This is no small thing, and we must not forget that it all came out of Robert’s vision and will. So maybe we are sometimes being just a little too hard on him.”
I believe all that came out of our projections, our psychological needs, and our pocketbooks. The illusion is that this charade is somehow sustained by Bob’s will. It is the students and their worship that allow it to happen. When’s the last time Bob got up in the morning and went to a job? 1971? As Duke Ellington said: “Nice work if you can get it.”
April 4, 2007 at 5:11 pm
After reading post # 202 in which I have been duly informed that the FOF is no longer a 4th Way school, and that Sel[f]-remembering” as well as “divided attention” (as work I’s) are to be replaced by “Be”.”, I am forced to ammend post #247 (comparative spiritual paths) to have a more complete picture. Please add it to the list.
RB School: This ‘special shit’ is for FOF members only.
April 4, 2007 at 5:25 pm
Loreta (#244) said:
“However everything has its time of youth, maturity and decline and eventually everything is turning into its opposite. I feel this point has come for the school now, the form is no longer inspiring to wake up but promotes a chain of sleep and group behavior.”
I felt things had become like this when I left — in 1989. Maybe the school doesn’t change so much as it appears to when one changes oneself.
April 4, 2007 at 6:17 pm
I was thinking about Inner Jewels post (80); your question about what do we DO with our realizations and understandings. It is something that I am trying to figure out for myself these days, living in this wonderful new free world.
I would like to address the question of what we can ‘do’ with our realizations of ‘one-ness’ and ‘nothing-ness’ by firstly saying what those terms (which might sound vulgarly ‘spiritual’ to some) mean to me in a ‘practical’ way.
Maybe it can happen to a person that he experiences ‘oneness’ and ‘nothingness’ as a ‘state’, as a mystical revelation of some kind. Another way to come to the same understanding is through a simple analogy which I would like to offer. This analogy is of one’s own body (‘as above, so below’ and reversely).
It is quite impossible that a cell in my, say, toe will ever ‘meet in person’ a cell in my heart. Yet they are parts of the same organism and what unites them on a physical level is the flowing river of life – blood, which brings food and energy to both. As separate physical entities, both cells are microcosms within the macrocosm of my body. They are part of one and also they reflect one-ness in following the same pattern of life (supporting themselves and the whole) within individual functions.
On the level of ‘consciousness’ we can see the same pattern of ‘one-ness’ if we take, for example, an analogy of blood as a common source of life and energy for all cells in the body.
Nothingness of one individual cell could be seen in that a life or death of one cell will not affect the whole of my body much – millions of cells are born and die every day. Yet as a group, they form important organs without which the body can not function.
This simple analogy could be applied to many different aspects of a human life as well as that of a society.
Any individual who thinks himself to be any different from his neighbor in a ‘spiritual’ way is not only endangering himself to experience suffering caused by separateness, but also, involved in a group of like-minded people, could become a part of a ‘cyst’ or ‘cancer’ with which the whole body of humanity has to struggle to dissolve it and to heal. Most problems in the world exist because majority of people still do not see themselves as a part of a whole, as one with it.
Realizing one’s self as ‘one-ness’ and ‘nothing-ness’ brings not only happiness and peace, but also helps to show others that they have the same capacity within themselves, while ‘specialness’, ‘we-are-luckier-ness’ leads to more separation and eventually to war with what is not ‘me’.
Awareness, brought by realization of ‘one-ness’ is all-inclusive, when one can see the reflection of one’s self in all manifestations of consciousness, and brings compassion to those who suffer the delusion of separateness. From that awareness one lives and acts naturally as to help whoever possible to realize this unity. This is what we can ‘do’ with our realizations.
There are great books on the subject of unity of consciousness, those of David Bohm (On Dialogue, Limits of Thought) and Holographic Universe by Michael Talbot which is easier to read.
April 4, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Post 206. ” I see” the blind man said. You are brilliant! You expressed so well everything many of my friends feel. THANK YOU.
April 4, 2007 at 6:37 pm
Former American Student (#259) wrote:
“I think where Robert goes wrong is that he takes himself too seriously. He seems to really believe all the gloom and doom and unfortunately he expresses a lot of negative emotions.”
Negative emotions from a “conscious being”? It all begins and ends here, doesn’t it? If not, please explain.
April 4, 2007 at 6:41 pm
To Clara Elena, 5/256
You are one of the few signing you post with your own name. Quite couragious
April 4, 2007 at 6:47 pm
273 says: I felt things had become like this when I left — in 1989. Maybe the school doesn’t change so much as it appears to when one changes oneself.
Where is the boundary between school and ‘one’ – whether FOF member or not? When I change, does not all change; when you change, am not I reformulated? Jump out of the time box,
Matter talks in this forum and is confused. Form talks and is identified. Spirit talks sometimes, but mostly matter and form listen and respond. When spirit does ‘listen’ spirit, naught is said and heard – said and heard well.
Most in this forum though are still stuck on FOF and 4th way form and words; they cannot listen anew – at least until they do.
4th way form is a valid and indeed gr8 form by which to organize knowledge. For those who have so done, all new knowledge from any source (once understood) quickly fills available slots. 4th way form however, like all ways and forms, cannot produce being. Being produces being; it can be no other way – though it may seem that a form like ‘self-remembering’ or ‘sequence’ or ‘intentional breathe’ or ‘???’ is causation until the matter/form doing the ‘forms’ ceases to believe in self. Only Self/Being is; the rest is dreams
April 4, 2007 at 7:02 pm
To Inmate #44 post 107
WOW! This is the best posting ever! Please write more! If an impeccable source would leak to you more often I’d rather go to your meetings and pay you the voucher! Hahahahahahah!
Oh, the humor helps… Thanks!
April 4, 2007 at 7:10 pm
To Clara Elena, 5/256
So you left the School… What happend to you ?
Your post generated an interesting reaction within me. I was not so concerned by the possible accuracy of your perceptions (Hitler/FOF), I was only interested in YOU!
We know about opinions, feelings, actions, turning into their opposite (love/hate; hate/love).
You too must know it yourself… I am not teaching here, even not reminding you.
You could experience the need to “save the furniture”, still talk “coul” and “on top”.
You don’t!. You face the turn, express it, not pretending it is any different.
I admire you for that!
I don’t like the content of your post (no matter how right it might be, at some levels), but I like YOU.
I trust what is happening to you will be beneficial (the Gods never miss the point!) and not only to you! Yes, I trust!
Keep posting, the sharing of your own experiences is meaningful.
To Reckless, post 5/269
Do you really need to be brutal ? The same legitimate question could come from a more loving part of yourself. Interested, concerned and affectionate.
Much love to you all.
April 4, 2007 at 7:31 pm
#269 reckless.
It is fascinating. I mentioned in my first posting that when i heard about this blog i had no interest in looking at it. But i did and off i went into shadow land. It brings up stuff i thought i was through with but is still hovering around in here like hungry little ghosts.
What gets me most and i keep harping on it in various ways (and i see it in other postings because i see it in my own thinking) is that to a greater or lesser degree we think in the same old relationship to things. I realize that in order to communicate we need to have a common ground in language and we certainly have different understandings of words and concepts especially in this ghostly realm of ideas called the “spiritual”.
Why can’t we just throw everything out? Are we afraid that in doing that we will truly lose the “way”? We have many experiences “internal” and “external” and we interpret and infer within a mental frame work. When there is distorted and incomplete knowledge stuff gets distorted. I read a post like Paul 267 and think , well, that seems right enough but how many assumptions are in there? What do those words mean? “being” goes from knowing how to make a waffle to being one with the infinite void and all of evolving creation.
Why would i ever take someone elses word on the ease or difficuty of my being able to have the experience of “reality” or “consciousness” (whatever those might be). Sure there is work to be done and i don’t much subscribe to the non-dual “let it be” approach but i am fairly sure it is because i don’t understand what that approach is. It seems to have some validity because the world is what it is and stuff does happen the way it happens.
I can trust myself and the universe which tends to show in short order when faulty thinking and behavior is occuring. I can also continue to examine and re-examine again and again the words and concepts i use to see the world.
April 4, 2007 at 7:58 pm
I am pushing buttons here, don’t go… or go but if you read, let me/us know how this works for you, even more simply, what happens…
Because the body is the medium through which all and everything is percieved, we experince existence as a consecutive moments of HERE and NOW.
Adyashanty even had some funny words about the now. Something like: there is so much talking about being in the now. I WOULD ACTUALLY LIKE TO MEET ANYONE WHO MANAGED TO GET OUT OF NOW!
My point is then, the here-now IS THE PRISON!
A “then” and a “to be” , any form of “elswhere” are not allowed because if they occur they do occur in the here-now.
Francis Petrarch, very intered in memory as a phenomenon, observed that “Memory is the present of the past.”
Good luck!
April 4, 2007 at 9:08 pm
Both current and ex-students of the FoF that use this blog appear to be identified with the FoF, RB, the Work, awakening, with each other, with themselves.
In a funny way, the current students have a better deal; preferable and even possibly useful forms of identification, unless one takes the hard liner view.
Ironically, current and ex have more in common with each other than they do with the rest of the billions in humanity; a shared language, a shared technique, a shared experience, knowledge, comparable being and fate. And still they fight. Humans eh?
Heresay
April 4, 2007 at 10:39 pm
Has anyone here had any experience with one of the FOF spinoffs? The Fourth Way School (http://www.geocities.com/Tokyo/1236/) was founded by Charles Duncan I believe. The late Mervyn Brady founded The Academy of European Arts and Culture. There may be others.
April 4, 2007 at 10:41 pm
As Virgil, Marge, and Barry might say, that was a Homer.
April 4, 2007 at 10:54 pm
To Paul, 267-5.
You made a very nice comment, I agree with every word you said, except for myself I have not yet “hatched”. One thought is you might think about returning to FOF. The School provides a third force to be “Present” and a continual push torward living in the higher parts of oneself to those who wish it.
My above comment is not within the “theme” of this blog, and I hope it does not draw to much “fire” and I probably take a chance to mention something like this; but I see something in your words that focus on the most important things rather than superficial side issues which are rampant through out this blog. Good luck to you.
April 4, 2007 at 11:14 pm
To you-me-us-they, etc. thanks.
Brutal? a little, but not nearly as some other postings and is is not brutal and insulting to liken Girard to a Nazi General?
But truth be told…I am interested in Clara’s inner work too, it seems she is experiencing a lot of pain, and in Loreta, two good friends…I’d like to know what happened here, how to get them to see what is really going on–seems like a lot of resentment in Clara’s case which is unfortunate–as she and Girard have always been very well liked, and respected in every way by all…
so yes, i hope my-your-our-their compassion can shine through despite the photograph
time to look inside some more…I like the heresay thought that we have probably a lot more in common than we seem to value at times!
Thanks for the insight.
April 4, 2007 at 11:32 pm
I was sincerely seeking an answer when I asked in #276 about the contradiction between Robert’s “expressing a lot of negative emotions” and the idea that he is supposed to be a “conscious being.” I am not completely naive — I have heard from others about him expressing negativity. But if anyone can — particularly those that feel they have verified that Robert is conscious — I would like to understand how they deal with the contradiction between Robert’s claim to be a conscious being and this quote from the Wikipedia entry on the Fellowship:
“A key principle in the Fellowship of Friends is that not expressing negative emotions is the first step of an inner transformation of consciousness — of reaching a new perception of things as they are, objectively.”
Thank you.
April 4, 2007 at 11:37 pm
Re 276 Internaut:
I don’t understand your question about my comment.
Can you ask it again, perhaps in some other way?
Thank you.
FAS
April 4, 2007 at 11:44 pm
Re 283
Well I hate to point this out, but isn’t it pretty obvious that this blog is about the Fellowship and the relationship of students/ex students to the Fellowship so of course we are identified about this topic. Why else would we be spending energy writing here if it was not about this commmon thread and how to understand our experience?
April 5, 2007 at 1:15 am
I think we have given enough airtime to delineating the faults of the FOF. Can we now open a conversation about what exactly we are doing, each of us, in or out of the school, to continue our work. I am not talking about generalizations like “embrace life” or “love the beautiful people around you,” “throw away words,” but more specific, practical tools of work. I am very very interested in how people actually make efforts to “be in the present,” or to “hang out with the nothingness,” or if they no longer feel no need to do so.
April 5, 2007 at 2:34 am
Dear Reckless,
You do choose suitable names for yourselves. Reckless, third pig…. You might try to at least pretend to be a student. While I’m about as blunt as Robert is diplomatic, diplomacy, at least for his outer circle, has been his greatest tool and you might learn something from it, before you leave.
Your attacks have no mass and I am saying what I am saying and it is up to you how you want to interpret it.
You keep trying to deviate us from the issues by attacking me personally and as long as you can keep to words that is fine, let them all out if you need to, and so will I. If you dig into my life you’ll find enough suffering that I am happy to respond for and nothing to shame me with. Can you say the same for yourself?
A week ago I was in the Fellowship, married and working, now I’m not in the Fellowship, I am separated and I am working. Are you? Or are you just protecting your little world against everybody else? First line, the King of Clubs, or still a higher cause?
Even though we have separated, my husband and I are still legally married and there’s enough love between us to continue doing second line. This is my second line and if I can help him and you understand the little I understand, my work will be done. After seventeen years of being asked to not speak in the Fellowship I am eager to talk. Maybe I’ll have to talk for seventeen years to make up for it, even if nobody listens. One gets so used to monologues in the Fellowship, why can’t I make one of my own? One day, sooner or later, everyone will want to understand what really happened to us, even you and my husband. I think it is legal to keep trying to communicate or develop the second line, both in the big wide world and in the Work. First line cannot continue without it.
Read a little deeper to understand what is being said, maybe you’ll get something out of it. Buffering does have consequences and if you’re as willing to pay for those as I am willing to pay for mine, then let’s keep talking. Maybe we’ll end up embracing.
As my husband often says:”In friendship”
Elena Haven
or if you prefer:
With all the compassion that I can amass for you and the Fellowship of Friends,
Clara Elena Gutierrez
P.S. I have much tried to keep my identity in this blog away from my husband’s name because he is definitely still Girard Haven, unconditionally at the service of the Fellowship of Friends. Not a hair has moved, but if you care for him half of what he has cared for the Fellowship, you would do him the one and only service that you could do for him, helping him come down to reality. This is not higher centres nor have we arrived in Paradise yet, no matter how many buses we have taken. If you care a little for Mr. Braverman, you would do him a great favor not helping him continue on the same bus my husband took. Or, do you think a stroke is not good enough to show you the consequences? All the marriages? a bit of decent life? Not just the role that you blew up and abandoned? That he blew up and can’t let go of? You might also explain to Mr. Braverman, that no matter how brave he has shown himself to be, for there’s not been little of it, there’s no money, no power and no state worth making the effort to continue supporting the Fellowship as it is and on the contrary, loosing everything one has is worthy, if one helps to change it. Even temporarily, one’s daughter, for I trust the threads that “hold” us.
On another related note, I do not find it ethical to send students my postings, including my daughter who has “subliminally”, as other students have, been instructed not to read the blog. If she could listen with all your support and decide for herself what she wishes to do with her life, you might find it easier to get me in a better state. Not that you’ll silence me, for it is not a bribe, maybe she’ll just join me in this quest!
April 5, 2007 at 3:24 am
#291:I’ve been waiting a long time,atleast since page one.
April 5, 2007 at 3:38 am
291: “I think we have given enough airtime to delineating the faults of the FOF. Can we now open a conversation about what exactly we are doing, each of us, in or out of the school, to continue our work.”
In observing the blog, it sometimes seems to be a temporary “organism”. It has it’s breaths and it’s cycles, and it’s trends towards temporary areas of interest. But I’ll tell you, personally, I have no patience with someone who expounds about where something should go, especially when they are no more than a temporary “cell” in that temporary organism. If, as I suspect, nobody has died and made you God, why don’t you start your own blog, or better yet, your own cult.
April 5, 2007 at 3:42 am
#291: “I think we have given enough airtime to delineating the faults of the FOF. Can we now open a conversation about what exactly we are doing, each of us, in or out of the school, to continue our work.”
In observing the blog, it sometimes seems to be a temporary “organism”. It has it’s breaths and it’s cycles, and it’s trends towards temporary areas of interest. But I’ll tell you, personally, I have no patience with someone who expounds about where something should go, especially when they are no more than a temporary “cell” in that temporary organism. And, unless I’m wrong, I seem to be able to glean quite a bit about what different people are doing to be more awake. If one is looking for a strict “how to” menu I would think they would be altogether blissful in the FOF where one doesn’t NEED to actually “think” for themselves.
If, as I suspect, nobody has died and made you God, why don’t you start your own blog, or better yet, your own cult.
April 5, 2007 at 3:48 am
Dear Clara Elena:
I have been talking, both to myself and others, for a little over 17 years since leaving the school, slowly deciphering what happened to me. I would certainly be willing to listen to whatever you like, and tell you what I can. Also, for what it’s worth, I don’t think one ever reaches a final conclusion about our experiences — the understanding just evolves and changes. For me it’s been a lot of “two steps forward, one step back,” but in the end it has kept going forward. Keep writing, keep processing.
April 5, 2007 at 4:34 am
Elena, I think I am finally starting to get a sense of where you are coming from.
You write: “After seventeen years of being asked to not speak in the Fellowship I am eager to talk.”
That statement pierced my heart.
What a sad and lonely time this must be for you, leaving the school, your husband and daughter, your 17-year life of enforced silence!
Yes, you must talk. You must be heard. Underneath the oppressive system of ideas to which your mind appears to have been shackled beats a tender and courageous heart. Nourish it!
I wish you well in your struggle to be free.
April 5, 2007 at 5:47 am
Post 256. Clara Elena. I truly admire your courage to speak the way you do in this public forum. Still, from the perspective of someone who had been totally committed and dedicated to serving the “teacher” for so many years (never really committed to serving the other “anointed ones’ though), I have to say the comparison to Hitler is still not accurate. A better comparison would be between RB and Adanoid Hinkel, the character played by Charlie Chaplin in “The great Dictator”. Think of the scene where Chaplin bounces the inflated world globe off his fingertips. If you haven’t seen the movie–rent the DVD.
The main difference I see is that anyone CAN just walk away from Burton and FOF. Really! Just try not sending a check for a couple of months and see how easily you are escorted to the border. This was hardly the case in Nazi Germany, even if you were a loyal Arian native. The emotional and mental difficulty that leads up to leaving the FOF may feel like being in a concentration camp, but it is temporary– believe me.
Be brave.
April 5, 2007 at 6:18 am
Literally off the wall,
God revealed
a sublime truth
to the world
when He sang.
^I am made whole
by your life.
Each soul, each soul
completes Me.^
Hafiz
April 5, 2007 at 6:22 am
Dear Rita, your post # 274 is truly awesome! I thought sometimes about this analogy with human body. In a way it’s obvious that we are all part of the whole, and in a way are all ONE, and yet there is so much belief in separate “me”, special, different, chosen individual. (better than others, of course.) Interestingly, it is precisely this illusion that causes so much unnesessary pain. So much judgment, struggle, condescendence, hatred, fights – all for protection of the individual “me”.
Separation equals suffering. But, as it was said, suffering is the last thing that people would give up. Gourjieff was right on this one.
April 5, 2007 at 7:06 am
To Another former student (post 291) – what exactly am I doing these days? Enjoying life more than ever, doind whatever needs to be done. No efforts are needed to be where I am, because frankly there is nowhere else to be, but now it is actually seen and understood, and lived. Life is only happening now, and it’s perfect and beautiful as is.
The most practical tool – in my opinion – immediate honest self-inquiry. Asking – who am I? Not using some ideas, not concepts, not practices, not even the sequence, but simple quiet looking, acknowledging and seeing what is right here right now, without mental noise and labels. Look like a kid would look, in a very simple way, and see what can you observe about yourself without your ideas and stories right in the moment. You may suddenly discover just this “nothingness”…
And when things about who we are become really clear, there is no need to use any tools anymore. There simply will be no “one” left to use them..
April 5, 2007 at 7:31 am
To Dear Clara,
Thanks for taking the time to write back. Believe me when I say that I can feel your pain and I certainly appreciate your efforts at compassion, and I am talking for myself here (the Third Pig is someone else who can talk for itself–oink).
I would like you to look a little deeper inside yourself–a theme throughout all your writings here is ungratefulness, resentment and feeling there is not enough real second line in the fellowship.
You are ready to judge even your own beloved husband (you write he has to “come down to reality”–have you always felt this? what is so unreal about him? sure you must have felt very different before and what happened there? how about your daughter and son in law? they feel as you do?).
Personally, I find Girard’s selfless dedication and service very inspiring. Loyalty is a virtue in my book–his is not the dumb sheep-type loyalty. I do not see him as soundly asleep as you apparently do–I am very sad to hear you talk about him this way because you both clearly love each other.
You seem bitter and angry now. What does that have to do with your quest at this moment? This is not the Clara I remember.
Try to recall that you came here too in search, were treated with respect by all friends here around, many many students have assisted you and Girard taking care of Dorothy for years, often while you and Girard were traveling teachers or on vacation–just doing what needs to be done, not seeking any medals for it–for very little compensation….
I also vividly remember a beautiful evening a few years ago when the entire Galleria Gardens were transformed into a beautiful wedding reception when you and Girard got married, no expense was spared. Girard and you received many gifts–Girard has been supported in many ways since his unfortunate stroke-where is the lack of second line there?
And nobody ever told you to be silent…nobody has been told not to read this blog, as you well know, many in the FOF do daily and it is perfectly fine!
Now it feels a little as if you have become the opposite of your true self–how can you allow this to happen? this was behind my photographs to you. we do not need your silence, we do not need to bribe you, who wants to, who can? nobody is sending your posts around, only you are, by putting your thoughts on this blog the way you have chosen.
The school does not need you (or me or any one individual) but the opposite may well be true–think about it a little deeper before lashing back at some perceived notion of being attacked. You are not.
We all make choices, and since this blog started, Robert and many students have chosen not to read it at all–they kept going for their vision, as they see it; Girard has dealt with this blog a little and voiced publicly his view point–fine; a handful, including yourself, have chosen to leave and separate over the perceived injustices and wrongs in the FOF; others probably sit on the fence, deal with their emotions, fears, and whatever is confronting us, with or without this blog–each gets what he or she wants in this beautiful dance.
As for me I have chosen to embrace this blog as a unique experiment–I enjoy seeing my reactions, I enjoy learning what and how we voice our concerns and opinions.
trust me as I am a true and long time friend of yours…many many many of us are wishing you well.
April 5, 2007 at 7:51 am
Hi F.A.S (why do I get a mental image of wonder Woman 🙂
Re: 290
Agreed – to me it was obvious but it appeared not to be so to all, that’s why I wrote what I wrote.
I guess I’m inteested in exploring possibilities that build, strengthen, unite. To see the potential in a situation and to follow it down the rabbit hole. To communicate. With presence, to commune.
I do not believe that identification is my natural state, and I approach activities free from this, which is my own work (when it works).
I have a suggestion to this blog that may move it forward:
Create a new meeting place in a threaded chat style, to make it private (by invite only, away from public view and search engines etc), to give better organisation and structure.
From this two more spin-off dicussion groups:
1. for ex-students only, to openly discuss, in private.
2. for current students only, to privately discuss, in the open (anon.).
Of course, this will occur naturally, especially when the good Sheik has had enough of all this ;-).
Bye4now
Heresay
April 5, 2007 at 8:08 am
To Myself
Kind words. Received with thanks.
Negativity directed towards former students by current students. Makes no sense to me.
Someone, much maligned in these posts said, “Students leave the School when it no longer feeds them.” Seems reasonable.
Why would anyone stay when what once inspired or nourished them no longer does so?
No need for recrimination, no need for judgment.
It is a choice, really. Either way.
Each one of us trying to make sense of it all, as best we can. Seeming to be more alike than the words reveal.
All pieces of the same broken dream.
Best to all. Cake
April 5, 2007 at 9:34 am
To Innernaut: 5/276
“Negative emotions from a “conscious being”? It all begins and ends here, doesn’t it? If not, please explain”.
With Robert one can generally say “there’s more to the picture than meets the eye”. Once, over twenty years ago, Robert made me the butt of his joke in front of an entire dinner table. Nothing mirthful mind you, just biting sarcasm. I felt like crawling under the chair. I thought, when your teacher makes a public spectacle of you it must be pretty bad. I also wondered, why would he do this to someone as devoted to him as I am?
Then the realization came – the reason he did it was precisely because I was “mechanically” devoted to him. He was testing me, and also trying to break down that part of me that was ready to give him my blind trust. Even when it was happening, as awful as I felt, a small part of me knew something was up. Of course, he does things like this at his own expense, as someone present will invariably think “look at the Teacher expressing negativity!”. He’s often ready to sacrifice his own reputation for the advancement of his students.
I remember early on in this blog someone said part of the reason they left the school was because they kept waiting for Robert to “wink” at them and he never did. For me, he was winking that day. He just doesn’t do it with his eyes. I’ve seen him “wink” many times since then, with me and others.
I’ve also felt Robert’s negativity when he was not “playing”, just an inadvertent expression. In those times he immediately acknowledged it and rectified it. People think that conscious beings don’t err, or stumble, but they do. They also see it very quickly and, more importantly, own up to it. Robert used to be fond of saying the school was not trying to create “perfect machines”. I hope recounting these experiences has addressed your question in some useful way.
April 5, 2007 at 11:33 am
Exlax 101 posting #5\169:
The story about the Hawaian therapist is pretty amazing! I had been trying to understand No Persons concept of not having any choices, and although on one level I understand this, there is still a sense that there is something some part of us can do to make a difference, rather than this attitude of universal acceptance. If we go along with the concept that we are “awareness” which is part of and one with “the creator”, then something in us is able to create, make a difference, and this idea of our being able to make external changes through our internal attitudes, relationships to things, prayer, or whatever you want to call it, makes a lot of sense. The quote by Gandhi which Birdsong gave in post # 130 says the same “Be the change you would like to see in the world”. I wonder what would happen if all the people who feel bitter or confused about the FOF tried this???
April 5, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I read “In Search ..” when I was 19 and 11 years later enjoying the fresh air of freedom became, in all my wisdom, one of the first Russian students to join. After one year of excitement and novelty my friend and I went to Renaissance. I wouldn’t even call it disillusionment. It was the recognition of the too familiar patterns of what we knew when we were growing up, with all the lies, fear, hierarchy, rationalization, domination of ideology expressed in a rigid, empty language and the deadly atmosphere created by people who are not able to be who they are. How did we end up here? was the question my friend asked. We both knew the answer – in a way we needed to belong in order to criticise, to direct our discontent with life and probably with ourlselves stemming from our childhood towards something obviously bad and corrupt…Not without feeling big-headed, of course, we can see through all this, aren’t we great. We were also curious – about Robert and who he really was, about so many highly intelligent people who were allowed to be manipulated. In the end we both left. It took me 6 years, however, to realise that I was using the school to my own ends, in order to have a structure in my life, to adjust to the new life in a new country after I left Russia, to relieve the fear of isolation, to maintain an illusion of dealing with my internal issues – and to eventually to act on this realization. I didn’t give it a second thought after I left,it’s only a play, isn’t it? (some bits of the school language do come out of the oblivion once in a while!) But I still remember the incredible beauty of Northern California and Nevada – maybe it was worth it, after all. I am not sure what the point of this post is – I knew there were a lot of Russian students in the FOF and I am still wondering – doesn’t it remind them of something they may have lived through as children? Without analysing anything, on a purely emotional level..
Fascinating forum, anyway. No person, thank you very much, your posts sound really alive and vibrant.
April 5, 2007 at 4:19 pm
I would like to say something about the thought, “I DONT NEED A TEACHER”. Neither did the followers of Jesus, Mohemmed, Buddha and all the rest of the “Changers of Humanity”
It seems like nobody on this WEIRD blog needs a helping hand they are all treachers unto themselves.
So far I’m unimpressed with your knowledge, understanding and direction.
April 5, 2007 at 4:46 pm
Thank you Howard for your thoughtful response in #305. Please don’t misconstrue this as being in any way snarky or sarcastic, but I would just like to observe that of the current students posting here, your level of devotion seems to be among the highest. I offer this in the spirit of honest observation, not criticism.
I have continued to ponder our little exchange regarding the possibility of the breakdown of the spiritual ego while remaining in the Fellowship, and I think I am having some second thoughts, that go back more to my own original experiences. At the risk of being repetitive, I believe that the act of leaving and “abandoning the system,” or the sequence, or whatever is occurring when you go, is an essential part of this breakdown. I don’t see any way to take full responsibility for one’s own authenticity while remaining in an environment where, at some level, one looks to someone else to validate one’s actions.
This is not inconsistent with your experience that Robert is conscious. To the contrary, one of the worst things a teacher could do would be to “graduate” a student, in my opinion. Because then that student would leave with all the accumulated baggage — the spiritual ego — intact, with no motivation to break it down to get at one’s self beneath. So if I were to give Robert the benefit of the doubt and say he’s awake, then all of his predictions of the damnation that will befall one who leaves is in fact a masterful teaching tool. It is one of the essential elements in the spiritual breakdown — overcoming this externally applied fear and having the courage to trust one’s own voice over another’s is critical to the process. But only insofar as you actually take that step yourself when the time is right.
This is much closer to my real understanding than what I wrote before, which, to be honest, I wrote more in a spirit of conciliation than honesty.
Hope this helps.
April 5, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Dear Clara Elena,
I am your friend and support you from afar and wish you much courage and strength.
It is a very painful time in your life. I hope that you will come out of it even more loving and beautiful. I really hope that through the efforts of people like yourself, FOF has a chance to change to an open healthy community (however impossible it might look now)
Sending you very much love.
April 5, 2007 at 5:22 pm
This blog helps me to see the patterns of behavior, the faulty thinking and the wrong attitudes in myself and the others. It is harder now to “nod in agreement” – I ask difficult questions which drive my friends insane and make them afraid that I drift away into the world of “sleeping machines”. I am really grateful for that. Please, don’t go away and keep shaking the boat, otherwise it all will go “back to normal.”
But in relation to a bigger picture I am still confused as I was. Yes, there is this level where things seems to be lining up in a “bad way”. As bad as a Nazis Germany. But do we see clear? Maybe it is our imagination and we are in an imaginary school with an imaginary teacher? If we leave this “imaginary school”, may be there is another level of the school we do not see while we in this one?
Rodney Collin advised us to be always honest, truthful and sincere…
Still confused
April 5, 2007 at 6:10 pm
I asked my friends last night how was the meeting on “Sequence”. No one could tell anything clear.
One friend said that the there were some really interesting quotations and images. The post #107 came to my mind… Quotations, images unrelated to the quotations, interpretations unrelated to neither… Of coarse it is hard to tell what it was about!
… but – who cares! – it is not about the words… it is about the conscious energy! Blessed Higher State. Priceless…
April 5, 2007 at 6:32 pm
Dear Reckless (#302). You wrote:
“This is not the Clara I remember.”
Is it possible that you never met the REAL Clara at all? Or maybe you “photographed” her and sent her into hiding when you did? Something to think about in an environment where individuality is suppressed/oppressed in favor of homogeneous external imitation. This is a theme I pick up in Clara’s writing here — feeling oppressed and wanting to be heard, but being shut down. It doesn’t take everyone shouting and pointing their fingers to do that. The subtlest of words or looks can have a powerful silencing effect when they have the weight of judgement, dominance, or “Robert has asked that we…” behind them.
While there is some valid advice in your obviously sincere post, there is also a lot of pressure — accusing someone of ingratitude is one of the biggest weapons in the arsenal of feminine dominance.
Reckless, you clearly want to help Clara. But if what you said were directed at me right after leaving, it would add more feelings of guilt to the already difficult mix of emotions.
My 2 cents.
Clara, if I’m off the mark, please tell me and I’ll butt out.
April 5, 2007 at 6:35 pm
Dear Reckless,
I am not interested in reducing this conversation to my personal life, I have already indulged enough on it. Here are your answers if you can take them.
Do you really think that to commit yourself to a noble cause in our time, a school or a teacher, means neglecting your personal life? Wives, children, family, time, money, work, or does neglecting your personal life, covered by the light of a conscious teacher’s disguised misogyny, not fit like a ring on a finger in the macho mentality of our time? Men that cannot commit themselves to themselves or life but are still looking for other men to justify their own existence?
Do you really think the fourth way is about a little club in which these men have abused our goodwill to support a cheap brothel?
Is the fact that the fourth way is the way of life, not the possibility of man today to develop a more conscious living through the embrace of both his personal and social relations?
Do you really think that influence A is against influence C or can you conceive the possibility of Influence C impregnating influence A? In other words, do you think consciousness could impregnate your life or do you think consciousness runs up in the clouds and your life down in the swamp, and that’s O.K.?
It is perfectly true that in The Fellowship, A influence limits itself to sending students out to make as much money as they can with total disregard for their talents or any consideration for the work they do. Work, just as in life, is measured by the amount of money you make. It is not the tool with which to carve your being and by not honoring the work people do, work in general is undermined. It becomes just another thing to do to make money. The disconnectedness of students from work in this sense that is truly supported by the Fellowship as a community is part of the neglect of the beauty of ourselves as human beings. Only Robert’s work is valued. His outrageous shopping with our money to bring a few more cupids to stroll around the gardens with his Guci, Guci men is what is valued here, and it is no wonder that the rest of the men are so depressed. It is a huge trap that we have built for our selves. A disgusting and sick trap. One that is quickly paying its dues amongst the children who have not been able to fit in life and are wise enough to not commit to the Fellowship but don’t really know where to stand. The beautiful gardens don’t hide from them the reality of their parent’s lives. The feeble men going to bed with daddy Robert while the mums look condescending and eventually get a new tie or a suit if the favor was pleasing enough to the Sir.
You can call it morality but there’s a morality of a man number one, two, three and there’s no need to go any further because it doesn’t look like anyone here has gotten it.
We’re all like the pimps going around finding clients for the brothel with the blessing of Mr. Haven, Mr. Braverman and each one of the rest that pay blindly and look behind.
There are no human values in this brothel. No one knows what to do with the children, the women, the men or the community while we still sing in chorus, let it be.
There’s the need to address sexuality and pose ourselves the question of what is the sexuality of a man number four, five and so on?
Marriage?
Children?
Work?
Community?
Friends?
Possessions?
Passions?
They are the stuff our lives are made of and the fourth way is the way of life. The Fellowship has stopped working with these issues and it is still not a monastery but a brothel.
But we already know this, what we need to start looking for is solutions and there are an infinite number of them if we just want to look at them.
April 5, 2007 at 7:00 pm
there is a lawyer in Marin named Ford Greene who specializes in cult litigation. He is knowledgeable about divorce and custody issues as well as general litigation. He has successfully sued the Unification Church and the Church of Scientology, among others. He is a former cult member himself and is very familiar with the Fellowship and its history. His office is in San Anselmo and is called Hub Law Offices.
April 5, 2007 at 7:18 pm
From dick moron, 5/298:
“The main difference I see is that anyone CAN just walk away from Burton and FOF. Really! Just try not sending a check for a couple of months and see how easily you are escorted to the border.”
How dare they be so un-cultish!
April 5, 2007 at 7:22 pm
Dearest Elena,
I pretty much relate and connect with everything you wrote,
And my many questions today are for you…
These are for me the valuable days, although quite painful,
in which I can actually SEE what is happening around and inside of me ,
simply because the “spell” has been broken;
Some aspects of this reality I’ve actually seen already, but maybe chose to ignore them in order to conform, while some others weren’t basically visible yet .
It’s happening to a fast growing number of friends.
I feel the urge to use my brand new freedom to finally TALK,
but not only here , protected by the good blog, rather “out there”,
giving anyone who might be close to break out of their own spell the possibility to receive a little bit of support;
simply because now I know that the process of realizing the ramifications of some of those same truths that you describe, can be devastating and truly frightening.
Dear Elena , why didn’t you speak up before, why didn’t you help many of us from the inside and let us understand we were not alone?
Why you seemed to me like “one of them”, who couldn’t see, couldn’t stretch, couldn’t flex, couldn’t talk?
And you obviously had already a lot to say.
I’ve had shared various meals with you and G.,
events in which I would taste the ground to see if there was any possibility to crack the wall, to get an unrehearsed answer,
anything a bit less “by the book” then the usual,
anything less formatory and politically correct ,
anything from the guts rather then from mere intellectual masturbation;
Maybe it was all my fault , I just asked the wrong questions.
I’m convinced that your precious contribute would have helped even more effectively other friends affected by my same deep confusion and self-doubt,
if you had voiced your struggles while still “in”.
Why did you wait ? Why not using your understanding of external consideration ,
second line , your intelligence and courage
while also taking advantage of the exposure and influence of your role IN the FoF ?
Can I do it ? Can I help my friends ? Can it be done?
I have no relevant role , no relevant husband (love him anyway!) , no relevant mind,
only the guts, the urge and the wish.
With the understanding of today, if you could , would YOU do anything differently , not with the whole 17 years, but at least with these last 2 months ?
I appreciate your help, with great respect
Medusa
April 5, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Dear Clara Elena,
Thank you for your post #314. I would like to amplify your observation that in the FOF, one learns to diminish or demean the value of one’s personal talents. I found this blanket, uniform subjugation to be very disturbing and oppressive.
As I became more and more uncomfortable with the lack of “customization” by Robert for individuals, I kept remembering something Gurdjieff said about the 4th Way — something to the effect that in the 4th Way there can be no general rules, that what is an effort for one person requires no effort at all for another; and what is useful for one is absolutely harmful to another. The fact that there were ONLY general rules, exercises, etc, many of which felt like they were damaging to me at my core, was a key part of my decision to leave.
I write this in the spirit of giving you more hope about what you’ll find out here in the wider world.
Best wishes.
April 5, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Dear Dear Clara,
I am moved by your courage to speak the truth. It is an ugly truth that many will respond to with anger, denial and possibly retaliation. I am concerned for your well being. Please take care.
April 5, 2007 at 9:01 pm
To “Confused” #311:
“But do we see clear?”
Dear Confused,
Many students live in this state of confusion and contradiction for years. No matter how bright or educated we were, we all had, besides our sincere wish to awaken, varying degrees of self doubt, low self-esteem and emotional neediness. The school uses these weaknesses to reinforce allegience and fear and then it literally takes years to recover and have the confidence to trust oneself. It sounds like you are in a process and no one can accelerate it for you. I can only encourage you to trust yourself and stop looking to others to validate your observations. You will most likely never be comfortable in the school again because your conscience is emerging. You are on your way to something bigger and better. Just keep trusting. Good luck.
April 5, 2007 at 9:35 pm
This is for Clara.
Clara, I left the FOF in 1994 after 21 years and I know what you’re feeling. Let me tell you that you are the brave one and I salute you. When I read your posts I feel the light and I see the integrity and honor in your being.
The patronizing posts from FOF members to you are distasteful, in my opinion. You don’t have anything to feel guilty about, and I see no reason for you to feel grateful for what the FOF has done to you and to everybody else.
The essence of the FOF is selfishness and it is a spiritual desert compared to “regular” people who are doing their best out here in “real life”.
I wish you all the best of luck in your new life. Please keep writing.
April 5, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Raptus here, just checking in…
Talking of Gucci accessories, I still have in my possession a couple of the teacher’s genuine crocodile leather belts (the type used for keeping your trousers up). They were a gift for services rendered during a particularly strenuous trip around Italy.
Having served their function, I have for a time now been considering posting them on e-bay, but if any of you out there could use them for the cost of postage and packing, please let me know (I can send you photos if you wish).
Unfortunately I can’t guarantee they still possess the conscious aura that once exuded from their golden belt buckles, but nevertheless they would make great souvenirs and something to tell your children about – assuming you have any.
RR
April 5, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Regarding my post 306 this morning. I got up and went downstairs to find the person I live with had left their washing up (as usual). I began having the usual tirade of negaivity, but then stopped and tried the Hawaian therapist thing. In my head I apologised and told them I loved them, and left their washing up. An hour later they came down and immediately started washing up! (quite unlike them) and then proceeded to say that they were going to try and change as they took me for granted and felt they should take more responsibility for themselves! Coincidence or does it really work?! I will keep on trying it and let you know.
April 6, 2007 at 1:26 am
I knew at some time this would end up with another auction–belts on e-Bay! seems like we have come full circle? or time to turn the page?
April 6, 2007 at 1:49 am
“People think that conscious beings don’t err, or stumble, but they do. They also see it very quickly and, more importantly, own up to it.”
I really hate to ask you this, dear, but how many concious being do you know?
“I kept remembering something Gurdjieff said about the 4th Way —”
Dearest Innerknot, I didn’t know you actually met Mr.G….?
“Do you really think the fourth way is about a little club in which these men have abused our goodwill to support a cheap brothel?:
Clara, I know you have not had any other experience of “fourth way” so why do you make such a faux pas here?
Seems to me you are a bit identified with this “brothel” theme. Hmmmm? Too bad some of Girad’s being did not rub off on you.
Dear Lust 4 Life:
Silly goose! Students in the FOF are too busy being confused and raped to try to forgive themselves for the state of the world. They are the “chosen people” and need not take any responsibility for life because they are sooooo above it all. Isn’t that right, dears?
Dear Confused:
“This blog helps me to see the patterns of behavior, the faulty thinking I’m confused!”
Then you go on to “say” or rather, quote:
“Rodney Collin advised us to be always honest, truthful and sincere…”
Oh dear, I think you must really decide whether you are either confusing yourself or becoming confused by quoting other confused
people. So now I am really getting confused as to which confusing pattern of behavior is confusing you?
YOU can start trying to becoming more HONEST, TRUTHFUL and SINCERE by thinking for YOURSELF.
Anybody who needs to quote somebody else to get a point across, regardless of how NOBLE or CONSCIOUS the being they’re quoting, obviously is not using the great 5% of their brain’s capacity. Try harder.
April 6, 2007 at 2:18 am
#295 Bruce
Here, here. I’ll second that one.
jb
April 6, 2007 at 2:57 am
Clara, Innernaut, Vena, Another Former,
I applaud and support you all for speaking your truths. They resonate with my experience.
About the term, “feminine dominance”:
It is Burtonspeak.
It is misogynist.
It demeans women.
Better terms to refer to attempts at behavioral control by inducing shame or guilt are “shame induction” or “guilt induction.” Shame induction and guilt induction are not the same, because guilt and shame are not identical, but they belong to the same family of emotions.
April 6, 2007 at 2:58 am
#291,#308
Same ol’ seeker framework, how pitiful.
April 6, 2007 at 3:04 am
#309 innernaut
Good thinking, you got it right!
April 6, 2007 at 4:07 am
To Medusa, 317: She did speak up, regularly, and everyone squirmed. Or perhaps you missed the symposia. They probably got too close to being an open forum, and have been discontinued.
April 6, 2007 at 4:40 am
Hello Arthur:
Why the unkind words about this blog and the people who are trying to contribute to it? Are we not all ‘poor devils trying to work on ourselves’ no matter how modest the effort? Many of us are bleeding, some bleeding badly, some within the Fellowship and others without.. hoping to find some kind shelter where we can at last freely express ourselves without being lacerated and put down yet again.. Maybe some of us are not as eloquent as you expect us to be, nevertheless we are trying to put something down into words the best we possibly can. Perhaps my words were unkind also, or at least seen in that way when I expressed doubts about what Rita, Dana, Charles and Bruce had written. I hope they were not taken in that way. I don’t know how we can fulfill your needs, perhaps you can tell us and give us a chance…
Don’t be harsh on us, we’re just ‘older children, that’s all’.
I don’t know if this will reach you.
Alexis
April 6, 2007 at 5:49 am
Dear Medusa (#181): The disconteted are all around you, unhappy & questioning, rarely voicing their dissatisfaction. They make now a large minority or even the silent majority. I estimate them here at Isis in the hundreds. No, dear William Heintz, a polite (but Quixotic) appeal to the council for ‘reformation’ will not do.
When do we storm the Bastille?
It feels like the life is being sucked out from what seemed to have been a vibrant, creative, hopeful, spiritual community. ‘The true heart of the school'(Abraham Goldman’s expression) is rapidly disintegrating; bits of it go away in the form of the wonderful individuals who cannot stand anymore the ‘dying of the light’. What kind of operation is needed for the cure? Or is it too late and only a heart transplant will do? Or shall we resign ourselves to the death of this experiment?
The Howard Carters will deny that that is the case. The needy, the naive, the sycophants, the institutionalized, the ones who have authoritarian personalities (meny of them from former communist countries), the eager and blind novices, will continue to flock for awhile longer to the only and the repeating ad nuaseum show in town: RB’s inspiring obscurantisms. What else is there to do here?
Meny ‘A Friend’ (#183) act as if “…there is no fire…” oh yes there is! And he/they also suggest that we just pack and quietly leave as thousands of disillusioned students have done so far. Leave it all to those who are “grateful that the school is organized down to the last salt shaker…”-A Friend (#97). People like you, A Friend, scare me more than the passionate CryBaby with his cute fascist outbursts. You scare me because despite your servile acceptance of authority you can reason well and can legitimize, rationalize and interprept in a palatable way the most distastful, tyranical and outlandish expressions of a person or of a regime. Girard H. also, dear Reckless, (#302; “…Girard’s loyalty is a virtue…”), in my book is a villain more so than the deluded inner-circle-Howard Carter because, while Girard should know better, he chooses to assume the role of the ideologue, the legitimizer and PR man for RB’s every new grand nonsense and lingo bit, enthusiastically twisting and forcing it to sound as if its an ultimate and a perfect expression to the profoundest experience. He is an intelectual rubber man. He ignores inconsistencies, contradictions, insensibilities, unethical behaviour and unhealthy developements. And he does not find the power in himself to object, resist or simply disengage, refuse to play the role.
I still want to be with like minded, gentle, civilized, creative people who this school have attracted from such divergent backgrounds. Individuals who are involved in spiritual practices with minimum rituals and are confident in their worth, unafraid and independent. Some of them who are disillusioned and ‘Graduate’ without leaving the school. Let there be among them also some fascists, zealots, and needy. And not too meny who possess a spiritual immature greed. Or tiring enthusiastm such as No person’s. Some school personality is alright also. RB too is lovable & credible when he stays with demonstrating presence only. For awhile it seemed that this was what we were aiming for: a liberal & mature spiritual community. Now its an Autopia.
What is actually happening lately is the creation of two polarized camps; one begins to display a uniformity in attitude, language, choices and action that exhausts all the resources, corrupts the discourse between students and pushes meny of us who just want to be a part of an open minded spiritual community out. Will there be no initiative to reverse this trend?
April 6, 2007 at 6:30 am
No Person #190. Thank you for your good wishes. I have to say that I enjoy your postings very much. It seems that whatever you did after you left FOF has worked for you and have gained enough wisdom to share it with all of us. You speak from your own experience. Very grateful for that.
One of the things I have come to understand lately is that I am at the point where I really need to know what LOVE really is and how to develop more love within me to then be able to share it with others. Exlax #101 talks about this Hawaian therapy and some students have expressed statements to the effect that they have tried it and somehow it has worked for them. What an incredible and simple discovery! Thank you for sharing it with us. Maybe it is not a discovery after all, but new to me! Exlax, are there any books that you know about this Dr. in Hawaii that I can get somewhere? I would like to know more about this therapy if possible.
April 6, 2007 at 7:31 am
To Innernaut: 5/309
If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that it is not possible to stay in a conscious school and have one’s spiritual ego broken down, which seems to fly in the face of reason, since that is one of the things schools claim to offer:
You said: “I believe that the act of leaving and “abandoning the system,” or the sequence, or whatever is occurring when you go, is an essential part of this breakdown.”
Or maybe you are connecting your statment to the belief that the FOF in particular is not a viable way. I’m not sure what you mean, but it might not matter for the sake of discussion.
Let’s face it, very little said on this blog can either be proven, or disproven. If I say one can have one’s spiritual ego broken down in the FoF because it happened/is happening to me, what does it mean to you or anyone else? You are free to deduce what you can and either believe it or not.
If you say “Innernaut” needed to leave the FoF to have his spiritual ego broken down, I can relate to that. But if you say, no one can have it happen in the FoF, then I would wonder how you could know something like that.
You also said: “I don’t see any way to take full responsibility for one’s own authenticity while remaining in an environment where, at some level, one looks to someone else to validate one’s actions”.
When I joined the school I knew I needed help; I sensed the falsity of life, other people, myself foremost. The school / Robert showed me the answers I was looking for and gave me the tools to keep looking and finding more answers. I would say that I, personally, could only take full responsibility for my own authenticity because of the school and the environment it created, which supported the intense efforts needed to break down the “spiritual ego”. That being said, what remains is not the quest for validation from another, but trust in a system/teacher that made good on all its claims.
One might ask, why not leave if you have been shown all these things. Why not take what you know and strike out on your own?
The anwer to that question for me is if everyone did that there would be no one left in the school; and its obvious to me that schools come into existence for a reason, attract people for a reason. And that reason is to work together for a higher cause, under the guidence of higher forces, the teacher, and one’s fellow students/friends.
April 6, 2007 at 8:09 am
Ahh yes. So much here!
Thank you for the analogy, Rita, of the body (a preferred one for me) as a map for understanding our roles as human beings, individually and communally. I heartily agree that we must come to a place where we act naturally; to paradoxically do nothing and leave nothing undone. I think it was Jung who said free will was the power to do what one must. (And I loved The Holographic Universe, it’s one of my favorite books ever).
It is more and more clear that we *are* responsible for how we experience our lives, and how we see our lives fundamentally changes how we experience them. The aloha therapy, I’ll call it for fun, is so deeply exciting because it turns on one’s head formatory notions of doing. Taking it as a lense for looking at this blog we can see how the folks who judge the blog, often leave judgemental posts about it; the people who see it as a struggle, struggle, the people who use it to spread love, are all buttery and delicious. But I wouldn’t go so far as to say everything is merely what it seems or can be reduced to consciousness. That’s a little too THE SECRET for me (surely you all are aware of the spiritual handbook that is sweeping the West right now, promulgating the law of attraction—funny, that’s FOF talk too). We are co-creators here, and that’s what makes it so much more interesting. I remember when, on a warm night under the stars, reading Hegel in College around the 2nd time I left the school, that I realized with such heartfelt relief that awakening was not a solitary effort. We are all connected and anyone who tells you otherwise is ultimately split off from his own divinity. The mate did come in and wash the dishes, the FOF could change with the courage of a few more dozen Clara’s, the world desperately more leaders to proclaim our unity and for individuals everywhere to breathe love into the fears which have fueled man’s injustice to man for centuries.
Life is impregnated by consciousness—if it didn’t, there would be no need to have bodies at all. Dare we live the challenge of unfolding our consciousness in these particular bodies? To embrace the responsibility of living the questions and the courage to answer them, even those questions that our parents or the FOF or whatever authority you pick may have dismissed and ultimately feared (one of so many: what is meaningful work?)
We exist through the interpenetration of consciousness and creation, Any child who learns from his parent or his community how to play in that field is truly blessed.
Thanks to the magic of all the wonderful coincidences that keep tumbling in and out of these pages and these momentary days….
April 6, 2007 at 8:23 am
Dear Medusa and Friends,
I only understood that external consideration as an objective idea was what was lacking in Robert’s perspective and practice a few weeks ago. I had been trying to understand why the school was so wrong and so right for seventeen years, and no matter how horrified I was about what felt wrong I kept working on trying not to judge and transform the inner conflict that it provoked. At the same time I knew self remembering worked just as all the exercises Robert had given us.
Social order established by instinctive hierarchy had been clear to me in life and the understanding that external consideration was the consistent connection to everything around one in an attempt to affirm one’s understanding of unity was also clear to me during the first big efforts in self remembering after joining the Fellowship, but while I kept understanding this two contradictory impulses about our interaction with each other, I kept trying to convey these understandings in meetings but instead of coming closer to students most seemed to turn away. It was strange to have such a pearl in one’s hands and not be able to share it. I could not connect these ideas to Robert. Robert was my Teacher in the fullest sense of the word and I did not question him although I tried to “transform” him.
I had also understood in life that people don’t care for each other mechanically and when I joined the Fellowship I never approached anyone to help me with anything because I did not wish to lay my instinctive centre on them and was convinced that we could only develop real relationships if we were not coming from the instinctive centre’s little interests. This seemed to come off as self sufficiency and who knows what else but there were no friends. It seemed all right to transform that too. Again, I thought that it didn’t matter if we didn’t like each other mechanically as long as we were able to develop objective enough conditions to allow for each other’s presence.
Understanding and appreciating American programming took many years. It shocked me off my feet for a long time. Only recently I have began to discover its beauty, getting to know Girard and understanding the proper place for individuality.
To answer your question, I could not help us while I was inside because I felt helpless not understanding what was lacking. I was never given any official role nor was I much appreciated by Robert so I felt I needed to work with my difficulties and become “better”? “Purer”? So that Robert would acknowledge my work in some place. Without his consentment I did not feel I had a right to impose myself in any way. Indeed, I was married to Girard but it seemed very clear that that did not mean I had suddenly acquired a crown and could feel privileged or acknowledged and although it was painful since I felt I worked hard enough, it was also fine, since that wasn’t the aim of the marriage.
You mention that when you met with Girard and myself you never saw the possibility of sharing those ‘I’s and questioning. I definitely tried to support my understanding of Robert’s teaching in every one of those events with Girard and kept “transforming” the contradictions. Although I did not agree with many of Girard’s understandings I did not try to be too excesively an opposition to him, I was a guest and we were very much in love.
The separation from Robert came with Dorothy’s play. I realized that no matter how conscious he was, he had hurt us. His complete undermining of the octave made it very difficult to work with her while I tried to align myself with his position, to understand that my position was , as he had said, “feminine dominance”. Not being able to and convinced that Dorothy needed to be looked after until the end, it “disaligned” me from Robert. Still I promised myself not to leave the school until I understood what had happened. All this has happened in the last six months. Then I saw it so clearly. How everything worked because it was mounted on self remembering and it affirmed the individual and how nothing worked because it wasn’t objective external consideration but instinctive privileges and small favors from the chosen ones to the ones they liked, neglecting the rest. How not having developed external consideration in himself, Robert had not been able to develop a complete system of his own.
It is interesting because for me there is nothing wrong with Robert’s present interpretation of his understanding of self remembering, or at least, there is nothing wrong in as much as we can give each other credit for our own subjectivity. In as much as we are willing to conceive and protect each other’s individuality, it is possible to allow for each other’s creative subjectivity and I am afraid I personally have no problem with how Robert has taken his idea of self remembering and connected it to other schools and images. It is not the theory which I find difficult, it is the monologue and of course, it is a very particular objective subjectivity, one could call it. It is not surprising that as it moves back onto itself, it becomes less and less objective and a laugh for many students.
Nevertheless, I believe the sequence is Robert’s best attempt yet into external consideration. It is about one’s connection with the external world and the deprogramming of the intellectual centre’s tendency to mechanical associations. I find it a very relaxing tool to harness the mind and think that in the fourth way, harnessing the mind might be a more adequate tool than stopping thoughts. And while it may be possible to stop thoughts with the sequence, the aim is not to stop thinking as exercises with the moving centre are not meant to stop moving. There’s nothing wrong with thinking for thinking is the processor of objective knowledge. But in this same caliber, what is difficult to understand about Robert’s teaching today is that it has this amazing tools but they do not come away from him or out of our individuality. They do not become objective knowledge for the development of a community and on the contrary, remain the selfish possession of his personal charm and subjectivity. Instead of extending out with love, it is payed for with money.
It is perhaps because of these understandings that I believe it would be possible for us all to go back to hell or the Fellowship and make it, if not paradise, at least a more friendly place for each other. Can you imagine the beauty of melting the friction that we’ve so badly accumulated? It does seem a little utopic as time passes and I start getting used to being in the other side, but I do think that if we could understand the advantage of having thirty three years, as a foundation on self remembering it is no small advantage for a progression of the work. If it is not in the Fellowship, they say “God opens a window when it closes a door” so we’ll see where the window leads us.
I do thank you all for your inputs. It’s been an intense week. There’s been great fear in expressing the ‘I’s before this one. Probably time to move on and thank the Sheik for the great stadium in which to shout out our fears. See you down the blog. Be much loved.
Elena
April 6, 2007 at 9:04 am
Regarding the Hawaiian therapy thing (post 169 & 323); since many of us FOF people tend to be superstitious (at least it appears that way) I took post 169 seriously, and when my 82 y.o. mom became ill a week ago with a fairly high fever I figured why not give the Hawaiian thing a try. I have a wonderful picture of her i on my wall and started concentrating on it and just reciting the words;
“I’m sorry” (that you aren’t well) and “I love you”. I called my mom the next morning to find her out of bed making herself a cup of coffee and clearly on her way to recovery. Coincidence??
You know, I have a wonderful picture of Robert in my livingroom….
April 6, 2007 at 9:13 am
#311 confused
As i was reading your post i recieved a communication from my higher centers. It is a revelation never before given to mankind and it relates to the noble 4th way system. It is my duty as a messenger to all beings to impart what i have recieved. Up until now there have been only been three realms of influence. A influence, B influence, and C influence. It was revealed to me a new never before percieved D influence. It is not clear to me yet the scope and depth of this D influence but it appears to transcend and include all other influences and i sense an extreme concentration of the D influence in the hills near Oregon House, Ca. As more is revealed to me i will pass it on to you all.
Dear confused, i am telling you this because if you keep questioning faulty thinking and asking difficult questions i fear you will lose connection to this D influence for all of eternity. You will need to trust yourself and live life from your own understanding. You will be responsible for your whole life and the world will be all yours.
Wait… I am getting a little more…it’s hard to.. hear sounds like..maybe drum or…numb influence…it is too subtle to be able to be sure but as more is communicated i will be sure to let you know.
April 6, 2007 at 9:37 am
Dear Confused (and the rest of us).
If you are still confused, you are welcome to come sit on the fence with me. Here there is a nice view and the gentle wind is pleasant. There are a few of us and the conversation is good. Best of all, you can see both sides. It is interesting to taste the outside and fascinating to watch the strange defensiveness inside. Yes, you get an occasional letter pointing out that you are severing yourself from Robert and C-Influence but no worries. Out here you don’t quite believe all that. The sounds of the city fade into a distant hum and you can hear the birds.
We fence-sitters love the Fellowship. I guess we should quietly leave, but no, not now, we have given too much, and the school is partly ours (even if we can’t recognize it as the one we joined). And it is too comfortable here on the fence. Some of our friends go and some stay. We are the neurotic ones that like it in the half way house, where we don’t quite belong, waiting for our I’s to change one way or the other.
There will most likely be a time when it is fine to leave – when the apple is ready to drop. Most students eventually leave. Statistically, we probably will too.
In the end it will not matter much whether we are in or out. We will still die. The number of times we did the sequence will make no difference at that point. I saw that clearly when I witnessed a student’s death. His past efforts, which were significant, were completely irrelevant at his death (or so I perceived). He died, struggling with his instinctive center just like everybody else.
Anyway, please feel free to join me if you like. It makes for an interesting ride – while it lasts.
FenceRider
April 6, 2007 at 9:45 am
Boy, I’m gonna have to smoke a turd in pugatory for that last one.
April 6, 2007 at 4:15 pm
#336 ‘Elena’
Still a long one but at least the full moon phase is over!
April 6, 2007 at 4:52 pm
Living the Contradiction
Recently a friend, who is still in the FOF, wrote to me that “I am not interested in the Blog, its just all Is” and I responded to her: “I would have great respect for this level of Separation if it would cover all areas of your live”, which means if she would look with the same level of Detachment at Is that are created when someone scratches her car for example. But certainly this is not the case so I told her “You, as many in the FOF are simply not affected by what is said on the Blog because you either buffer it or more likely simply value the FOF less than your car.
And the same I would say to those who write these nice posts, I have a high respect for you if you approach every aspect in your life with the same circumspection. Even my parents would agree with most, that is stated here and by the way I had no bad relationship with them until they were meeting so many students in the Hospital in Cairo and then investigated the school and after that decided that they did not want to have contact with me anymore, because they found out “That I am following a Sex Guru” as they perceived it.
What these two last years were teaching, only facing Contradiction can change your level of being and to the degree that you do not resent this contradiction you transform it into something completely new and wonderful. This new understanding I formulated in my central idea that it is the “Dynamic Labile Equilibrium” between contradictions that we have to live to be healthy and evolving.
Of course we all, deep down, were realizing this, however unconsciously, that is why we endured all the Contradictions in the fellowship for so many years and to the degree that we could face them without resenting them we gained what we are now.
This way you can understand many thing for example if it is still valuable to be in the FOF now and I can say YES, if you have not built up an elaborate veil of buffers not to see and feel painfully the many contradictions that the gods have built into it…. But how many still have this degree of innocence and did not use time to adjust, justify and feel comfortable after so many years. And importantly pain and suffering does not automatically lead to transformation and change of being, you have to have the right reasons why you want to endure them, so take a look at your third force.
Also there were many comments on Clara’s beautiful and courageous posts for example “Why she did not show this side of her for so many years in the school?” Simply because she, as all of us were trying to play the game, which was only be created to make this incredible number of contradictions possible. Mainly by us trying to be someone that was not our essence, and that is why plays are created in the first place. Now she feels uncomfortable for other reasons and bravely facing the contradiction she evolves to the degree she does not resent it or anyone. Clara please contact me at Kiran@inergetix.com, as Loreta wants to talk to you.
That is also why most people need a teacher because nobody has the will to put himself under so many contradictions, particularly in older age, except he is so fortunate to get the direct attention from the gods that plaster his path with stumbling blocks.
“The stone that the builders refused, I am making the cornerstone”
From Sao Paula leaving for Mexico in the afternoon
Written on the day of Jesus crucifixion,
a play more than anyone that shows the value of Contradiction
Kiss
Kiran
Here are some more pictures from our recent days:
April 6, 2007 at 5:29 pm
Dear Clara,
I commend your courage and clarity. Can you elaborate: What happened to Dorothy (the lovely ballet teacher)? (She was a bright star in my early encounters with the school– I will never forget bowing to the gods in her class.) Please give me the details, such stories are not necessarily mere gossip but instructive.
Also, your courage has inspired me. If anyone wants to come to New York and raise a glass in the beating heart of the world (or to write me directly), here I am: julescaz@earthlink.net
Aloha,
Julie-Jules
April 6, 2007 at 6:06 pm
“The answer is never the answer. What’s really interesting is the mystery. If you seek the mystery instead of the answer, you’ll always be seeking. I’ve never seen anybody really find the answer — they think they have, so they stop thinking. But the job is to seek mystery, evoke mystery, plant a garden in which strange plants grow and mysteries bloom. The need for mystery is greater than the need for an answer.”
–Ken Kesey
While quotations have been derided as indicative of weak thinking on this here blog, I still think there is a place for an eloquently stated concept that expresses a hard won personal truth, given voice through someone else’s words. This is one of mine.
April 6, 2007 at 7:30 pm
Re: 2 Part 4
Thank you …..
April 6, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Dear Arthur,
Just wondering;
I would like to say something about the thought, “I DONT NEED A TEACHER”. Neither did the followers of Jesus, Mohemmed, Buddha and all the rest of the “Changers of Humanity”
Do you really consider RB a “changer of humanity”, a teacher who can be on a list with Jesus, Mohammed and Buddha? Really….no, wait…Really? If you stop, try to shake off the tunnel-vision, try to think of humanity outside of the FOF…Really? It seems the FOF is too insular to change much of anything outside the fences of Apollo (Isis). Why doesn’t the FOF step outside of it’s blessed city-state and show the world, by example, how to affect change by working on oneself?
Another question to current students…what is the aim of the FOF now? A school must have an aim, right? Now that various predictions have come and gone it seems as though the original “ark” aim is moot. If there is no aim what will happen when RB passes? Will you follow A or GH? Why? Will you follow KJ or LT or KB? Why? Will you be prepared to step out into LIFE without knowing you have ready-made friends around you?
Just wondering…
Jeanette
PS; Glad to hear the news foolofit…love to see you sometime!!
April 6, 2007 at 7:48 pm
Dear Kiran,
Lovely post. Thanks.
I had to notice one of your remarks regarding your family. Good relation till they find out about the FOF!
You did not tell them.
Why ?
Did you know the good relation was based on not telling ?
I am asking because I am confronting this reality: I hardly talk about being in the FOF (family or “life” friends).
I am not confident.
I am not confident and I am not proud.
The sex/money aspect looks too bad!
I try to talk about it with friends “in” or “sitting on the fence” and their answers, so far, did not help me resolve the situation.
The many
– It’s not my business.
– I try not focuss on that.
– Can we really know the meaning of this all ?
– He is human too !
– Persverse/greedy ? So what ?
– Fine with me!
Etc… Did not really help clarifying.
Last example:
A Ballet in Milan in May = Teaching events.
I can’t prevent sensing that the ballet is the possible 3rd force for Robert to go to Milan.
In other words: first ballet, then teaching events…
very disturbing!
Nothing new, actually a very old appointment with myself since “Intentional insinserity” was given as a 4th Way tool since the very first day…
Back to the work bench!
April 6, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Where do THOUGHTS go? Written, spoken or dwelt upon? Do they attach themselves to some invisible channel and travel to some receptor in some head somewhere? Could it be possible to heal at a distance? Or, NO?
April 6, 2007 at 7:52 pm
Amazing ! Since I posted that I was going to try the ‘Hawaian Doctor’tecnique as outlined in post 169 the blog has radically changed !
The venom has gone out of Medusa’s snakes and even Howard Carter and Kiran are beginning to sound almost reasonable ! Plus no sight of Crybaby/Sure thing or the many headed ‘Friend/John/ElZorro’ and so on…..
I think we are onto something here….
April 6, 2007 at 8:00 pm
Howard Carter, in #334 you wrote:
“If I am understanding you correctly, you are saying that it is not possible to stay in a conscious school and have one’s spiritual ego broken down, which seems to fly in the face of reason, since that is one of the things schools claim to offer.”
To which I respond: Awakening is not formatory.
You also said, “Let’s face it, very little said on this blog can either be proven, or disproven. If I say one can have one’s spiritual ego broken down in the FoF because it happened/is happening to me, what does it mean to you or anyone else? You are free to deduce what you can and either believe it or not.”
You are correct, and I agree with you. I can only go on my own experience, which I would not presume to claim is objective and the same for everyone. Is there some contradiction between this and my first comment above? Probably.
You wrote, “If you say “Innernaut” needed to leave the FoF to have his spiritual ego broken down, I can relate to that. But if you say, no one can have it happen in the FoF, then I would wonder how you could know something like that.”
I can’t. I can only relate the experiences I have undergone and am undergoing. Jesus said something to the effect that the “way is narrow.” To me, it feels as if the way is wide. What I feel is more real to me than what he said.
If, as Robert has said, “confusion is a higher state,” then all of this should help.
Be well.
April 6, 2007 at 8:34 pm
Hello Half Life, Confused, Medusa, FenceRider and others:
Your position, which may reflect the position of many, is clear, but practically, what are your options?
How do you want to “reverse this trend” and “storm the Bastille”? Stage a demonstration at Apollo d’Oro, or better yet, a hunger strike? Organize a “clean-up-Isis” meeting? Circulate a petition with the names of the discontented? Boycott events? (Most are probably already doing that anyway!)
Anyone who has been in the school for more than five minutes knows it is Robert’s school. The only thing to do is go directly to him. So why not invite him for a little tete-a-tete in your home?
And failing that…
The only option in the direction of change is to write him a sincere letter explaining your point of view and see if and how he responds. He can be surprising. What do you have to lose?
Outside of that, the other three options are:
Think of what you want. Think of what you really really want. If you are not finding it, and cannot find it in the FOF, then leave it the school to those who feel they are gaining something (without judging them.) This will eliminate your suffering in this area quickly and effectively. Leagues of former students are beckoning with smiles. Of course, the school becomes less rich with each who goes…
Stay in the school unhappily and let your unhappiness fester, affecting everyone around you. Can’t go on for too long though.
Stay in the school and try to accept it and make the best of it, and even better, using the tools you have been given, hoping that either the situation will change, or that you will understand it better one day, or that it is part of some great unknown design…
If you see other options, please let us know ASAP.
April 6, 2007 at 8:38 pm
The comprehensive list of Post 247 omitted the most difficult path of all:
Work on Oneself: This shit is in me!
As we venture through life’s experiences, our toes get stepped on, first just a little, then again and again, to which we blame others, become negative, and move on. It continues to happen with more variation and intensity until eventually we have imitated the entire spectrum of negativity we’ve been exposed to: blame, resentment, retaliation, self-pity, and so on. Of course we don’t really want to be any of those and not much of us really is. They were just the reactions in the moment, but certainly not the core of who we were or want to be. So life unfolds and we proceed to do our best, sometimes doing the right thing for the wrong reason or the wrong thing for the right reason, but either way going through life’s lessons along with everyone else.
Add to this scenario: years of sincere work on oneself gradually peeling off layer after unnecessary layer until there it is – and too late to cover up again – our own pile of shit! All those reactions, those “wrong things” and “wrong reasons” that were necessary to get where we are now, were also stock-piling along life’s highway creating our very own, and no one else’s, custom pile of shit! We can sling it at others but it doesn’t make it theirs; and using it again makes it grow and boomerang right back to increase our own pile! Every conceivable reaction adds to it and boomerangs back…, except one. Just as the Hawaiian healer in Post 169 did for the inmates, one has to do for oneself… forgive oneself and love oneself, just as one is right now, dung heap and all. Seeing one’s pile of shit, and remembering all the things one did to collect it, suppress it, disguise it, and run from it, requires years of preparation to be able to accept it when it’s seen. It simply is what it is – a waste-product of life – and everyone has one. …so what to do?
If we try to complete all those unfinished things that contributed to our custom pile, as in Post 114, it may feel “bloody good” at first, but we also know it would be self-defeating (and not funny) to sustain for very long. So maybe Clara’s spewings are an attempt to complete all of those unfinished things she’s been wanting to say, but how can it keep feeling good if it continues all the way to the “Prozac, pizza, and chocolates”? Dear Clara and so many others both in and out of FOF, you are loved so much more than you know, for there’s not one among us who has not faced their own pile kicking and fighting, or who isn’t face to face with theirs right now (like many bloggers perhaps?), or who are still happily stock-piling and peeling in naive syncopation en route to taking their own turn at the wheel.
I wish we could all circle around Clara, and around each of us weary travelers, like the Aborigines in Post 236 and “relate all the memories of the good and helpful things you’ve done, and invite you back in,” and that when our own struggles come as they inevitably will, you would do the same for me and for each of us with total abandon. And maybe, just maybe among the multitudes, some of those “Barbies under the Palms” and “Gucci men” are also sharing memories in a circle of love. Maybe such circles of love are elsewhere too, both in and out of FOF.
Remember the idea of “magnetic” center? It couldn’t be a more fitting name. Now add aloha therapy and maybe it’s a way to find one another in this time of underground who’s who. I’ll recharge and send you my best…
April 6, 2007 at 8:46 pm
Some interesting ideas about conformity from social science: Compliance – behaviour that is motivated by a desire to gain reward or avoid punishment. Identification – motivated by the desire to be like the influencer. Internalization – motivated by the desire to be right. The first two behaviours are not intrinsically satisfying, rather they put the person in a satisfying self-defining relationship to the person or group they are conforming to. Internalization of a value or belief is more permanent and more deeply rooted, becomes independent of its sourece and extremely resistant to change. (from Elliot Aronson, The Social Animal)
Most FOF’ers it would appear are or were Internalizing.
April 6, 2007 at 8:56 pm
a stub on Fellowship suicides has just been added to Wikipedia. Please expand it with factual information about these unfortunates if you have this information.
April 6, 2007 at 9:09 pm
What Observe #341 wrote:
“Still a long one but at least the full moon phase is over!”
This statement, along with the recent excitement over the “Hawaiian therapy,” made me think. As a group, those that join the FOF are a superstitious bunch, as noted in a comment above — we are often quick to believe that we have verified something when the evidence is slim, at best.
When I joined the FOF, I received the usual “knowledge” about the moon cycles. This information wasn’t always consistent — some students said I would notice feeling more tired during a moon cycle, others said I would notice feeling more energy. But most agreed that our thoughts and emotions go a little “crazy” during the moon.
So, I went along my merry way. I had my FOF-issued card of the moon phases in my wallet. When I would notice some particularly “crazy I’s” I would pull out my card — yep, it’s a moon, I verified this idea. Or, no it’s not a moon, it must be something else, okay what was I doing, la la la…
You can’t verify an idea like this. For many years after I left the school, I kept doing this. I’d have some crazy I’s, then check the newspaper’s moon phase chart — yep, it’s a moon, or no, it’s not a moon, it must be something else, hmmm, this article looks interesting, off I go…
It took a very long time of losing all awareness of when the moon cycles were occurring (I live in an urban area where I don’t always see the moon), before I realized something — these so-called “crazy moon I’s” that I thought I verified had just as much chance of occurring in between moon cycles as during them.
Think about it — the day of the full moon plus the day of the new moon, plus 3 days before and after each. That’s 14 days! Two weeks! Half a month! On any given day of “crazy I’s,” you have a 50/50 chance of it happening during a moon cycle. Pretty good odds!
One more thing. During prospective student meetings, when we would introduce the idea of moon cycles affecting the “human machine,” we would often cite the urban myth of police departments noticing a rise in violent crime during the moon. Just a few weeks ago, I read of a scientific study that researched this, looking for a link between crime and the moon. The study found no connection.
One of the chief ways the human mind functions is by constantly looking for patterns in our environment. The downside is that we can end up seeing patterns where none exist.
Double-check your verfications and watch what you believe!
April 6, 2007 at 10:01 pm
Dear Medusa,
#317 “giving anyone who might be close to break out of their own spell the possibility to receive a little bit of support”
I would like to take you up on this offer if still available. Seems your relevancy is rising rapidly. Not sure about contact, perhaps the Sheik can help.
Fondly, still a member
April 6, 2007 at 10:03 pm
Dear Jewly and friends,
Elizabeth Kubler-Ross says that some people’s souls sacrifice their bodies to help other people’s minds understand ‘reality’. Dorothy is such a human being.
After two years of looking after Dorothy and at the limit of getting chronic fatigue I asked Robert for help with still another person to help care for her that I would personally pay within the framework of salary so that we would all get some money from the nine hours a day, at six dollars an hour that I was getting from her insurance. The letter was not answered immediately and I was desperate so I wrote another letter with full details of Dorothy’s and my play. I received the answer that Robert never wanted to hear about the octave again, that I was under feminine dominance, that I was not to ever talk to four “reckless” ladies in charge of the administration of the Fellowship about it, that the Fellowship had never been a school for healing and that yes, I could go ahead and pay anyone with my money and have them not pay teaching payments. I was also not to send out any more e-mails on my name and one went out with my name but not written by me. Then Girard started sending them out. I was also told that a home would be looked for where she could be sent. This was changed when I asked to take Dorothy with me and leave the school.
In “homes” people with Alzheimer’s are given morphine and other drugs to keep them quiet until they die. One person has to take care of so many of them that they never get personal assistance, love or simple human contact. The alternative of a home never made sense to me for any student who had been in the Fellowship for over thirty years, since many had abandoned their biological children, including Dorothy to a certain extent, leaving her son with her mother. These students only have, as far as I can see, the Fellowship to take care of them. As a member of the Fellowship I felt I was responsible for Dorothy, who I had never met before the alzheimer.
About six or seven years ago I volunteered hours a week and she still danced for me, we drove up the mountain of Isis and looked at the views and gardens.
About three years later I volunteered more hours and found her ……….. , there were about six other students volunteering to help with her care and still I asked for her to be moved to my place immediately. Not having a positive response I said I would not volunteer to watch it any more.
She was brought to me three months later, drugged, weak and crazy at the verge of death.
It has been almost three years since then.
It took five months of working with them every day before Dorothy allowed me to clean her fingernails. She still screams before she walks into a bath but shows much gratitude after she’s cleaned. She did not moan or cry at the beginning. She embraced a small doll and did not allow anyone to take her coat or shoes off, even to sleep, during the day or night.
It has not been very different to taming a wild and frightened beast and my methods have always been so firm, I often fear. Basically I have tried to give the instinctive centre what it needs so that the emotional centre can flourish. Food, cleanliness, caressing amd rest. It is flourishing. Now she cries and talks and moans. Laughs at the dogs and always tells you how beautiful you look when anyone approaches her. For a year and a half she still asked for Eric, her son, more than ten times a day. Then she stopped asking. Yesterday I asked her, “Dorothy, do you remember Eric?” She said, “Yes, I don’t know where he is.”
One of the problems Jewly, is that the American programming is based on the individual and not on the community. You work, get old and die on your own. If you can’t work you’re of no use. A “shell” is what I was told Dorothy was. “Let her go”. And then, the only work worth its name is the one in which you make a lot of money. It is what is so attractive about the stoicism of my husband, Girard. He gives up the money but holds to everything else.
In other countries we sit and watch how others die, holding their hands. Live musicians play, we dance and cry for nine days and bid them well. Others go to church.
As I see it today, in the Work, the mechanicality of any programming which is subjective in the individual is nevertheless, objective in the mass of its inheritance. It is what each of us receives and needs to transform. First line of work is mostly about separating ourselves from the programming given to us by our parents and transforming it so that we can love them and ourselves, consciously. Second line of work is mostly about separating ourselves from the programming of our nation so that we can break the subjective limitations that keep us from becoming true friends and responding for each other. Third line of work, is about separating from the ideas or programming, that both our parents and our nation have instilled in us about human values so that one can stand on one’s own and still be simply human.
April 7, 2007 at 1:24 am
FenceRider! Thanks! Where is your fence? I will sure join… After all, friends and the show are worth all the money…
April 7, 2007 at 1:24 am
Dear Fence Rider,
Can I sit next to you on the fence please?
Next to Confused if possible. I like to sit somewhere in peace for a while. I have been looking at both sides of the fence for quite
some time now, and I need to digest it all.
I am very grateful for all and everything that is out in the open. Veils have been lifted, stark truths revealed, and what is left is a reality that I am ready to embrace.
April 7, 2007 at 1:57 am
Is it possible? 5-337.
So when the penny drops
We need to be superstitious, do we?
But of course.
After all we don’t have time
to go on verifying stuff.
Ma! Where the hell is my silver platter? And don’t give me that Hafiz bull any more It’s far too complicated.
Aloha! Hasta luego!
April 7, 2007 at 6:15 am
hey folks, one and all, may Allah bless you. there is no God but Allah! and do not forget to make divine presence your destination. our love to all of you..
April 7, 2007 at 6:40 am
Bruce,
Any angles of thought you would like to share on Kirwan’s post (5/342)? The attachments?
April 7, 2007 at 8:42 am
I found this letter in Stella Wirk’s website.
I think some of you might like to know about it.
Samuel Sanders Tries to Help FOF
The following Letter to the Board of Directors, Fellowship of Friends, was presented by Samuel L. Sanders, one of the FOF board members, in an attempt to have the Board of Directors take appropriate action to censure the unethical and criminal behavior of Robert E. Burton, self-professed prophet of the Fellowship of Friends.
(Around this same time, a precedent was set for this by the San Francisco Zen Center which had done the same for their leader for similar activities, and had given their leader a year off as leader to get straightened out with counseling or whatever. This had given some hope to FOF members that something similar could be accomplished.)
It was not discovered until later that Burton’s unethical activity already had transpired unabated for fourteen years!
Samuel’s letter to the Board:
March 4, 1984
Dear Friends,
What is to be said can only be heard through your heart. Please try to listen from that part. For a long time we have been part of a criminal process which has hurt many individuals. Some of these individuals have been sacrificed because we have chosen not to listen to our conscience.
Robert has over the years pursued and sodomized young men. He has used his position to seduce these young men with the promise of immortality. His actions are simply that of a degenerate being no matter how refined. We in our blindness have allowed some dear individuals to be defiled and damaged by his appetites. Our ommission, and it is one in the strictest sense, is allowing it to continue.
Some of these young men have become seriously psychologically impaired through this process. Yet we go on minimizing it because it is safer not to know. These acts are a violation of Robert’s position. If we excuse this by saying that it is his privilege or his private weakness we are both accomplice and victim. If it is allowed to continue, the karma which we attract will bring down our school and leave very heavy stains on our being. It is simply not worth the contamination wrought.
There may be much discomfort which comes from these words. But please try to think of the anguish some of these young men have been subject to in the name of evolution; and ask yourself whether you would knowingly, as a higher being, conduct your life in this way.
Can you truly accept that one can enter higher worlds by such actions? Would you wish to enter these worlds by such acts? This reasoning leads to one final not-so-profound conclusion; the Emperor is indeed very naked and we sadly provide his mantle.
Robert is a victim also. The highest that one can extend him is compassion and help. If one becomes angered at him or oneself or me the cycle continues. He is and will be confused and hurt by these actions. Yet firmness and equanimity are what is needed. We do great harm to our school and our being should we choose not to act.
We have talked and preached an ethic of love and acting for the higher right. Now is the time to be the words. It would also be a solemn and humane act for us to help the young men who have been hurt and damaged by Robert. It would be a proper legacy to pass on to the next generation.
If you find in your solitude that fear and or the wish to defend has kept you from hearing what has been said, you lose a very dear friend. You lose yourself!
In friendship,
Samuel L. Sanders
Update within a day:
The Board of Directors would not discuss this letter or its contents and closed the meeting to “think about it.” The next day, unbeknownst to Samuel Sanders, the Board of Directors voted to remove Samuel as a Board member and excommunicate him from the Fellowship of Friends.
On June 6, 1984, Case Number 36937 was filed in Superior Court of California, County of Yuba, by Samuel L. Sanders, Plaintiff, versus Defendants: Fellowship of Friends, Inc., a corporation; Robert Burton; Miles Barth; Frank Annis; Gerard Haven; Helga Ruth Mueller; Abraham Goldman; Charles Frank; Charles Randall; Clair Bowan; and Does 1 through 50, inclusive.
The Lawsuit Complaints:
1. Fraud
2. Conspiracy to defraud
3. Breach of fiduciary duty
4. Conspiracy to breach fiduciary duty
5. Injunction
6. Damages
During this time, Stella Wirk still was publishing a small newsletter called “The WirkShop,” in which she had reported on the lawsuit and letters to the editor contained comments about the situation. Unfortunately, due to the fact that Stella and Harold were out of the group, the members of FOF who subscribed to the paper had subsequently cut off their subscriptions per FOF rules about not communicating with former members in any way. (Part of the conspiracy is that the usual line given members is “If you don’t communicate with former members, they have a better chance to come back into the teaching!” The “Why buy a cow when milk is so cheap” approach, and it works.)
Abraham Goldman, lawyer for the Fellowship of Friends, brought a copy of “The WirkShop” to court and asked the presiding judge to put a “gag order” on the case, and charged that Stella was “out to destroy the Fellowship” with gossip and slander. The “gag order” was ordered by the Judge, all this without any notification to Stella Wirk. The result was that none of the participants in the lawsuit were permitted to speak about it to each other or anyone else!
(Abraham Goldman has gone so far as to state publicly for newspaper articles that Stella is merely a “disgruntled former member” who is leading a *conspiracy* to destroy the FOF because of a personal vendetta against Burton! Stella finds it amusing that a lawyer would make such a ridiculous statement. A conspiracy to expose the truth?)
The outcome of the lawsuit, some three or so years later, was that it was settled out of court. That is, the Fellowship of Friends made a financial settlement payment to Samuel Sanders, and the case was over and would not go to trial. Samuel was not permitted to reveal the financial nature of the settlement, due to the “gag order” and Robert Burton told members of the Fellowship of Friends that the case was “dropped for lack of evidence,” or words to this effect, lying to the FOF membership.
It was considered by members to be a 4th Way Work effort to follow Robert’s task of not speaking about this issue among the members, which effectively gagged most of the FOF and thus insuring the secret life of Robert Burton would remain secret for several more years.
==========================================
It was approximately two years ago that an upsetting event took place at a meeting held at the FOF farm at Oregon House. From information received, the meeting was led by Belinda Rockwood (formerly known as Linda Kaplan), who asked the members attending, “Are there any questions?” the standard opening for an FOF meeting.
Yes, there were several pointed questions about what was occurring with Robert Burton’s activities, to which Belinda would redirect the meeting by re-stating her required topic. Some people still tried to ask questions and Belinda abruptly ended the meeting. Those people who had stood at the meeting and asked questions were excommunicated from the Fellowship by the next day. Emily Gordon, Ramona Merryweather, to name two long-term members (Ramona from the 1970s!), thrown out of the group for no other reason than requesting truth!
Of course, people being ousted from FOF are not said to be “excommunicated.” The line for their removal is, “They were *released* by higher forces.” Mmmm Hmmm, sure. “Higher forces” are supportive of the life Burton leads, according to Burton, which is almost as absurd as Goldman’s remarks.
It was about this time in 1995 that approximately 250 members left FOF (although rumors erroneously report about 400 people left).
Last we heard, the farm, now called Apollo, is no longer open to the public one day a week and no tours are being made there. The restaurant, La Cochina, is closed to the public and only open once a week for the membership.
The Fellowship conspiracy to “cover up” Burton’s activities is not explained by weather balloons flying over Apollo, yet it may be becoming more clear that these terrible secrets may be coming out at long last.
If a board covers green grass on a lawn, the grass turns brown and all sorts of insects, worms and other wiggly things take up residence under the board. When lifting the board and allowing the sun to shine in that former dark spot, the grass immediately begins to heal in the sunlight, and the bugs, beatles and other insects scurry out of sight fast! Healing for the Fellowship requires that light be shed on all that has been kept in the dark for a quarter of a century and the group must return to adhering to the *original principles* of the Fourth Way!
Everyone in the hierarchy involved in keeping the membership in the dark certainly is responsible for supporting this unfortunate situation.
April 7, 2007 at 9:29 am
To: Half Life, 5/332
You said: “It feels like the life is being sucked out from what seemed to have been a vibrant, creative, hopeful, spiritual community.”
Many, myself uncluded, feel the school has never been more vibrant, creative, hopeful or spiritual. Does that make us “deluded”, merely because we live a different reality than yours? Which sacred book is it written in that says your reality is objective truth and mine, or A friend’s, is delusional?
I’m curious about you desire to “storm the Bastille”. What manner of weaponry does one use when the gate keepers are angels?
April 7, 2007 at 4:59 pm
Clara (#357):
Really beautifully written. You have gotten to the core of the problem for the Fellowship and on a larger scale, our planet. When things are ignored wither away and die.
Thank you.
April 7, 2007 at 5:27 pm
“I feel the urge to use my brand new freedom to finally TALK, but not only here, protected by the good blog, rather “out there”, giving anyone who might be close to break out of their own spell the possibility to receive a little bit of support…”
Medusa, SAM et al. – You might want to organize a meeting at the OH Community Center for any fence riders who wish to talk 🙂 It’s not illegal, is it?
Wishing you all a good day,
April 7, 2007 at 5:39 pm
Howard Carter wrote: “I’m curious about your desire to storm the Bastille. What manner of weaponry does one use when the gate keepers are angels?”
Well, if the angels embody the spirit of the FOF, offer them money or sex and they’ll come over to the other side immediately!
April 7, 2007 at 5:58 pm
“What manner of weaponry does one use when the gate keepers are angels?”
Lucifer was an angel, the brightest in Heaven.
Even angels can fall from grace.
How do you know your gate keepers are objectively “good”?
Bigger picture: there are no gates on Truth. It is a pathless, borderless land.
April 7, 2007 at 6:36 pm
To Howard Carter: You sound like the Bush administration
and their defense of fighting the war in Iraq. Victory, mission accomplished……wake up, Howard.
April 7, 2007 at 8:26 pm
I was only half joking when I suggested organizing a meeting at the OH community center for anyone who feels they need support in getting out of the FOF. In fact, I wasn’t joking much at all.
I would like to start an initiative that I think of as “Know your neighbor”. Let me explain.
The FOF has quite a good thing going as a community, and I’m talking about “A influence” now. People are connected and know each other, and there is even a Community mailing list where you can sell your car, look for a babysitter, etc.
From the inside, when someone leaves, they have just drifted into non-existence, never to be heard from again. There is no announcement, and no list of former students. If you try to look them up in Propylaia to contact them, you learn they are gone from their absence in the listings, with no forwarding address. From the outside, when you leave, you may still have a couple of friends who are willing to talk to you on the inside, but you are cut off
from the larger community. Your previous community shuns you, and you don’t know any of the neighbors who were never in the FOF.
If there are only a hundred people who have left/are in the process of leaving, and who perhaps don’t feel a need to bury the ruins of their previous existence, burn down all bridges, move to the other side of the country and start their life from scratch, but instead are sticking more or less around Oregon House, that is already a small community pretty much unaware of itself.
I would like to open up a mailing list to anybody, whether in or out, who feels that the FOF is not a healthy place for them and needs alternatives. Even if there are people in the OH area who have never been part of the FOF but feel for some reason that once-FOF-ers would be a decent bunch of people to hang out with, I don’t think anyone needs to be turned away.
I can think of many reasons why it would be useful to have a community mailing list for people to connect. Maybe you can tell me who to turn to when I need to fix my plumbing, and I can give you a ride to town when your car breaks down. Maybe between the two of us we can help someone who’s renting a room from a student but wants to leave the FOF, to find another place to stay. Maybe we can inform each other about events in the area that might be interesting to this population pool. Maybe sometimes you can just shout out into the community, hey, me and my wife were thinking of going hiking on Table Mountain this weekend, anyone else wanna join us? Apart from being useful to each other in practical matters, I suspect a lot of the people who are leaving now or have left recently are just the kind of people I would enjoy being around. Except I don’t know where they are. On the property, everyone
pretty much looks like a believer.
So, I’ll create this mailing list and open it up to all, if I hear let’s say from
at least three people who think it’s a good idea. You can write to transfof@gmail.com (Any other comments and suggestions are welcome too!)
April 7, 2007 at 8:47 pm
“What manner of weaponry does one use when the gate keepers are angels?”
Please, give me a break.
April 7, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Jeanette #346: No deary, YOU lumped RB in with changers of humanity. My question was directed to a THOUGHT expressed on this blog that implied it was self-taught and did not need any kind of help or direction.
Strange, we hear of a concept that tweaks our interest and we want clarification. Many people went in search and some found FOF–too bad.
So, I now say, get rid of kindergarden teachers, college professors, self-help gurus, self appointed guides, mentors and everything related to anything called TEACHER.
April 7, 2007 at 9:43 pm
“If, as Robert has said, “confusion is a higher state,” then all of this should help.”
Dearest InnerKnot:
You have been out-of-the-loop for far too long my friend. This statement has long since been revised. Confusion is confusion.
“I’m curious about you desire to “storm the Bastille”. What manner of weaponry does one use when the gate keepers are angels”
TRUTH. Get behind me Satan….
PS:What meds are you on, dear?
April 7, 2007 at 10:27 pm
The Fellowship is a group and is subject to the mechanics of a group. It would be interesting to understand better how the group functions on a larger scale.
OK, we are all put together differently, conditioned differently prior to meeting the school and have our own unique understanding of generally accepted aims.
We associate together in spite of the differences in nationality, education, religion, language, life experience etc, that would normally inform our choices of friends.
Robert is a major enabling factor in all of this and in terms of the mechanics of the organization despite having lots to chiefs in the Fellowship, their power is dwarfed by Robert’s. It has been said that the advantage to the British in having a queen as their head of state is that she occupies a position that would otherwise be occupied by an elected president, which would be far worse. Robert is our queen. His authority displaces the power mongering of the members of the establishment. Who are these people? Where do they come from? What are they up to?
They are the Career Students- committed big time to the institution and their roles; Yes Men- usually failures looking for institutional redemption; Boys Paid Off- loyalty rewarded with an option for the future built in; Hatchet Women –who eliminate threats with a polished ruthlessness; Crazies – wild cards and gargoyles sanctioned by RB who serve to remind us that all is given by his grace. Old fogies – Settled in their ways and willing to put up with a lot to keep the status quo; Devoted Students –unintelligent and needy enough to be unshakeable.
Through years of observation of the way things ‘happen’ at the FOF, it has become clear that many of those in positions of authority do indeed owe a huge debt to influence C.
After all, it is hard to imagine that many of them would know how to wipe their own asses if it hadn’t been personally hand written into their plays by higher forces.
Interestingly the argument for democracy is that we would fare far worse under an alternative system, whilst in the Fellowship the vast majority favor Robert’s enlightened tyranny because they couldn’t bear anything more democratic. We really wouldn’t want to be governed by a selection of the people described above – bearing in mind that we might fit into one category or another, ourselves.
Loosing Robert’s authority would leave a huge power vacuum and we are willing to put up with a lot to avoid a scenario that might pull the Fellowship apart. At this time it seems, however, that enough people are no longer capable of supporting the way things work in the Fellowship, to cause a crisis that needs to be addressed by the establishment.
Why is a substantial group no longer capable of supporting the way things work in the Fellowship? What has changed in the last period?
It is not so much that Robert has done unpardonable things that he didn’t do before, but rather that the glue that held many of us close is not as sticky. A major difference between this and previous crises is the existence of this blog that is beyond the reach of the vested interests of the Fellowship. Other realizations that have been shared over the last months to varying degrees are: the factory atmosphere of Galleria; teaching events that seem to be mainly about generating money; lessening emotional enjoyment of being in the school; nonsense teachings that just do not bear scrutiny; dubious collective higher states; Journey Forth commercialism; the white elephant of the Theatron and a certain stagnation in spite of frantic activity. We would do well to answer the question ourselves – what has changed for us personally that could have a bearing on our relationship to the school? Are we bored? Embittered? What accounts do we have? How hard are we really working?
As in the case of all movements for change, one needs certain things amongst them – an untenable situation, motivation to change, willingness to make sacrifices, information, leadership, funding, collective vision, etc.
How serious are we about this? Are we just grumpy students wanting to be placated?
Of course, there is a big danger at the other end of any re-adjustment of interests that was succinctly expressed by Franz Kafka “every revolution recedes leaving behind it the slime of a new bureaucracy”
The disillusionment I sense amongst us encompasses more than the result of the function of a few buffers regarding Robert’s sexual behavior having been impaired. If this is a real school, which is always possible, then there might be some intelligence behind what is occurring and it does not have to be Roberts’, the councils or our own. We might all be getting what we need.
(This might of course be true for every one, in or out of the school. In fact it is likely to be true for us in the school only because it is true for everyone. One of the most mechanical types of attitude is that of personalizing what happens to one and ascribing a higher meaning to it)
One important element is the financial situation. It is clear that if the huge cracks in the Fellowship’s mirror financing arrangement are not at least prevented from growing, the school will fail to meet its obligations to creditors with serious consequences. The personal finances of those to whom the Fellowship turns to in such times have been depleted by years of leeching and many stalwarts of the school are less positive and correspondingly less dependable anyway. Indeed it has all the makings of a showdown, but also I suspect many would be glad to re direct their disgruntlement to service if they were included properly. Inclusion and transparency should surely not be alien to a 4th way school, yet it seems that the establishment is doing as much as it can to remain secretive and exclusive. Other than the fact that people who have tended to occupy these roles as well as most of the people currently filling establishment shoes are notoriously inept, there might be more sinister reasons for this opacity and subterfuge. Things might be in an even worse condition than we know, which is already very bad and we might be sailing towards the rocks of calamity under a reckless leadership with a counterfeit crew.
No amount of keying, toadying, maneuverings, lying or not identifying will keep us afloat when we reach the unavoidable terminus of this caper. Then again, maybe this is all negative imagination and if you return to the present everything will be fine. After all, the present is safe from this kind of identification – how convenient. If one was more cynical one could easily suggest a theory to account for the importance that is given to the state of being without ‘I’s, even intelligent ‘I’s. But don’t lets go there, entertaining doubts like that is not something one can return from easily
April 7, 2007 at 11:08 pm
Two people on this blog have pointed out the precedent of “removing the guru” set by the San Francisco Zen Society in removing Roshi Baker as their head after many years of abuses of his power of office, and suggested that this may have prompted Samuel Sanders in his quixotic attempt to replace RB with Miles as the head of the Fellowship. The removal part is still quixotic (the Zen tradition had a hierarchy above the abusing member which could be appealed to and a continuing tradition of other masters; the FOF is a universe unto itself whose boundaries are RB), but other similarities are fascinating.
This is extracted from an article on the traditional Zen scene in general and the “play” of Roshi Baker in particular (http://www.mandala.hr/5/lachs3.html)
———————————-
Richard Baker is an extremely bright and talented person and a born salesman. Shunryu Suzuki Roshi, shortly before his death in December 1971, gave him Dharma transmission in the Soto sect of Zen, thereby making Baker, for his students and for all future people in his lineage, an authentic link to the Buddha. At that time, Baker also became the official leader of the San Francisco Zen Center (SFZC)…
One student said that when the senior priests were questioned about some aspects of Baker’s behavior, the answer was, “Richard has Transmission.” A senior member relates in Downing’s book that Suzuki himself refused to hear criticism of Baker by other members of the Center because, as he said, ” To his [Suzuki’s] way of thinking, Dick’s commitment was at another level, so the rest of us were not in a position to criticize him.” Because the newcomers’ indoctrination into Zen ideology was incomplete, their unfortunate reliance on common sense prevented them from viewing Baker’s eccentricities as qualities of an enlightened Zen master. Baker himself was quick to remind his flock that he was the only American to receive Dharma transmission from Suzuki Roshi. This reminder served an important purpose: the Center’s members viewed Suzuki’s authority as if it were a divine fiat, so that any dissent or criticism was ended…
Baker manifested his authority by giving his followers two choices: obey his words without question or be marginalized, which was tantamount to being forced to leave. The latter choice was too painful for many for any number of reasons, including: 1) many believed that the Center was the best place to practice Zen and so leaving meant giving up what made life seem most meaningful, 2) their self-identities as Zen practitioners were connected to the Center, 3) loyalty to Suzuki Roshi, 4) leaving close friendships established through communal living and especially through practicing meditation together, 5) loving the lifestyle and 6) fear of losing one’s position in the hierarchy and the possibility for future higher positions culminating in being Dharma transmitted oneself. Therefore, in the need to remain at the Center, members had a powerful incentive to fully buy into Zen’s mythology. This was especially true of people wanting to climb Zen Center’s ladder to positions of authority, power, and prestige, which was totally dependent on Baker’s sanction. There is a saying, “It is difficult to convince a man of something if his paycheck depends on his not understanding it.” Obedience, subservience, and discipline were well rewarded at a large institution like the San Francisco Zen Center, as Downing’s book amply shows.
———————————-
Although Baker’s abuses were paltry compared to those of RB, the FOF parallels are obvious enough and, for me, the lesson too: the FOF, seen as RB’s life story, is no isolated aberration, but merely another footnote in the ancient history of the abuse of trust by people who started and meant well, but who, in failing to expose all aspects of their psychology to consciousness as it emerged, inevitably became corrupted by what they could not face.
April 8, 2007 at 12:22 am
Dear Practical #351.
I have one more option: to be true to oneself and to our friends. Do not leave them in their confusion! Ask questions and point out the “wrong” to the individual students. They will get mad first, then they will stop talking to you for a while, then they will try to help you “not to lose the school”, then they will listen and then they WILL THINK and this thinking will change their lives.
It is just silly to talk to Robert about it. Next thing will happen – you are OUT! We’ve seen that happened before.
Talk to students! Talk about the sequence, “Hail Robert”, power abuse, “esoteric schools keys”. Point out these “blind spots”. If there were no friends left here and only a bunch of “weirdo” then there will be no problem to just leave, I guess…
This blog opened my eyes and many other students eyes. Let’s keep them open and help those who are still in denial! They will thank us as I do thank this blog!
April 8, 2007 at 3:20 am
Hello.
Reading all of these posts is reminding me so much of my physical feelings when I was in the cult.
Dry. Stilted. The joy was confined to the imbibement of the wine. (Yes, Dionysus is invoked with the clear involvement of wine as an aphrodisiac.) I wonder how many members are alcoholics?
Since my thought processes were measured, judged and “photographed” there was a very simplistic sense of right and wrong.
I couldn’t move, breathe, feel without wondering if I was, in reality, paralyzing myself.
Questions, for instance about the teacher’s elevation above morals, (because he was allowed to behave immorally) froze my fingers & toes.
Homosexuality was forbidden until about 1994 or 1995. Yet, this “teacher” was clearly a homosexual. How does that work?
I had to reach and wrap myself around the idea that this one, rather dull fellow, with very expensive tastes, was allowed to hurt, take from and manipulate large numbers of humans because he is a conscious being.
Those reasons made no sense. Indeed, are sheer nonsense. Wouldn’t it, afterall, be the exact opposite?
O! The power to delude is so strong here.
Robert is a charlatan who, unfortunately has a cache of members’ cash.
It’s so simple. Really. Robert Burton is a fraud, a narcissist gone wild and a snob. All of his ideas are gleaned from others.
The devil appears in many forms.
There is no one answer, god, messiah, school. Madness lies in the idea that one is saved by being “magnetically” attracted to this school. Narcissism abounds in that idea.
Sheer insanity abounds in justifying evil.
Many of the actions taken by Mr. Burton are considered to be very deviant (i.e., seducing an underage individual). (He was sued and it was publicized!)
The narcissistic and elitist notions that abound in this school are amazing warning signs that cannot be questioned.
Any individual who compares themself to i.e., Shakespeare, better write a very good play. Or, to Vivaldi, a sumptuous symphony.
Wherein lies Robert’s specialness. Can any answer that question?
I ask this because I perceive that people who remain ensconced in this school are extremely confused.
That is a natural reaction to an amazingly deceptive scenario. What doesn’t seem to make sense, simply doesn’t.
It is that simple.
April 8, 2007 at 3:29 am
“I See”…
Thank you for a substantial post.
“We might all be getting what we need”.
There’s no doubt about it (for me). Of course this is something one can verify only for themselves, but that doesn’t exclude the possibility that’s it’s true for all.
April 8, 2007 at 3:42 am
For me, leaving was a profound and important step. I know, for me, I would never have left as part of a rebellion, or a group, or someone else’s efforts to educate me. It might be different for other people, I can’t say. In my mind, this blog existing is all one has to do, at this time, to help others. It exists. They know it. We don’t have to push it, or educate, or advise. Each person, in or out, will find what they need. The work doesn’t stop when one leaves, so why muck it up with “meetings” for others. For me, I think it’s a cop out. Everyone is going to do exactly what they’re supposed to do. Including if people want to support your OH “meeting” agenda. Personally, I try to accept what’s put in front of me. For me it’s either to enjoy, if it feels good” or to learn if it’s uncomfortable, or some combination of the two. Waving something this profound in people’s faces would be using the wrong “triad” if you will.
April 8, 2007 at 3:44 am
the wonderful thing, confusing, ironic, hurtful, exciting, or helpful, whatever one makes it so determined by our attitude internally, is that this “revolution” is not happening on the outside, but could possibly take place inside each one of us–dealing with our own delinquent I’s…
–there will be no massive revolt, as has already been stated several times, most recently by Sure Thing but also by Cry Baby albeit abrasively so, it cannot happen for many reasons, not the least of which is the lack of experience that the Bastille-stormers have in the storming that needs to be done, assuming it would be a good idea, which is still far from clear.
But assuming it would be good idea, first there would be discussion, then argument, then fighting and finally probably nothing. It is not so easy to be a leader, and give RB credit for at least that, having the intelligence for 35 years or more keeping some 1000-2000+ organization afloat… not a mean feat!
I understand this is not the solution that some hope for from this blog, but just part of the reality we are dealing with, no matter how much one would want to accomplish change–first understand if, why, and how this can be done…in my mind, a serious talk between RB, GH and a few others could accomplish wonders that no revolution can.
good luck to all of us.
April 8, 2007 at 4:51 am
Clara (#357),
Your decision to look after Dorothy is certainly NOT under “feminine dominance”, it is a free choise you made guided by your noble essence. Nevertheless, your expectation that the FoF should help you in this task is certainly under “feminine dominance”.
The FoF’s mission is not to provide shelter to ill individuals. Its members don’t pay their monthly donations in exchange of a pension plan or a medical insurance. The only thing that the “teaching payments” can buy is opportunities to be conscious of your own life. What each member then does with this consciousness, how they use it in their daily lives, is totally their own decision, not the FoF’s.
There is possibly a misunderstanding of the term “external consideration” here. Its esoteric meaning is mainly connected to the ability of consciousness to consider a situation externally, from beyond the machine, instead of considering it internally just from one’s own mechanics. The term is diminished, it becomes exoteric, when it is used merely from the point of view of addressing the needs of others.
April 8, 2007 at 4:59 am
To “I see said the blind man” – 5/374
Profoundly objective, sad, true and enlightening. I will find myself reading your comments again and again to more fully appreciate what you are saying. After being in the Fellowship for 20+ years and being out of the Fellowship for the past 15 years, I find the discourse on this blog refreshing, challenging, reminding and even more, not a descending octave.
Thank you.
April 8, 2007 at 7:27 am
To Rabbi Burns, 5/367,
“Well, if the angels embody the spirit of the FOF, offer them money or sex and they’ll come over to the other side immediately!”
The angels I’m speaking of invented the “other side”.
April 8, 2007 at 8:41 am
Dear Arthur,
Interesting way of addressing me…as “deary”. Whether you mean to or not it seems to be a way for you to make me feel smaller since we are not familiar enough to be giving each other pet names yet. Yeah, I was trying to be cheeky in my post too, sorry for that. I am glad to hear you don’t count RB among the “changers of humanity”(but he certainly has affected the lives of many people), I’m sure there are those who do think of him that way.
Dear Clara,
Thanks for the post about Dorothy, you are setting an excellent example for the rest of us.
I don’t know for sure whether it is a cultural thing, as Clara indicated, or a wrong-ness with RB’s teaching (or both) but it seems like, as a student, you become more and more disconnected from humanity, to FEEL less deeply about things. Concepts such as; just let it go, don’t identify, separate, don’t indulge the queens of centers, it’s a play, it’s the 44, serve as a numbing agent, as a buffer between you and the rest of the world. This enables you to shut yourself off from the suffering and needs of those around you.
Still, for my part, it was worth the price of admission.
Remember to get what you pay for (this was advice an older student gave me when I joined…I hope you still are J.P.)!!
Best wishes to all on this side, that side and on top of the fence,
Jeanette
April 8, 2007 at 9:41 am
To: Howard Carter/364
“Storming the Bastille” is indeed a good analogy to YOUR situation. The Bastille, a prison, symbolized the moral failings and social abuses of the 18th century ruling French aristocracy.
The “storming” symbolized the common folk overpowering the authority of the fat, grotesque ruling class of Louis VI and his court. Then again, it was a prison, so many bad criminals and lunatics were feed and released onto the streets of Paris.
The way I see it, it’s far better to leave the lunatics and criminals in the prison. Anyone with a conscience and a small amount of courage, can simply walk away from the FOF. There are no walls. Take your time, get your house in order and leave when it is practical. There is no Bastille except for the weak. Look around you. Do you see bars nd walls, or wide open vistas.
William Blake wrote:
“I have always found that angels have the vanity to speak of themselves as the only wise; this they do with a confident insolence sprouting from systematic reasoning.”
(The Marriage of Heaven and Hell)
April 8, 2007 at 9:59 am
P.S. to Howard Carter
William Blake also wrote in the same work:
“A man carried a monkey about for show, and because he was a little wiser than the monkey, grew vain, and conceived himself as much wiser than Seven men.”
April 8, 2007 at 10:23 am
We have a winner of the platinum post! #352
April 8, 2007 at 11:28 am
“What manner of weaponry does one use when the gate keepers are angels?”
Well, you use Jacobs of course. Duh.
April 8, 2007 at 12:10 pm
I still read the daily cards with a desire to learn from them, but I must say, this blog has been drawing more and more of my attention. I find, especially in the last couple of days, that the entries are extremely well written and the messages being delivered quite penetrating.
So many truths regarding the status of school, the direction of the teaching- or the research (that’s what it feels like), the strength of the friendships that exist, the possibilities for the future….
I still read “Thoughts From The Teacher”, but it does feel like so many things do come from the part of Robert that likes to make predictions. This was mentioned above.
So many students (current and graduates) have had an opportunity to expresss themselves in this forum and their voices all sound refreshing. You all are a beautiful group of people, no matter what state you are in right now.
I do hope this blog continues and that maybe things like an
e-bulletin board for former students living in the O-House area occurs. I know if I were to leave the school I would feel better knowing that I could easily connect with previous graduating members.
Is it possible?
PS. Sheik- I haven’t thanked you yet for keeping this together. Good job! Thank you.
April 8, 2007 at 12:25 pm
Dear bloggers,
Regarding how to have other possibilities to change the way the fof works at this present moment?
1. Visualize your friends, Robert etc and say I feel sorry for
you and I love you. Over and over again…we have nothing to loose. Maybe it also helps to heal ourselves.
2. 376 what Confused said is another good option as many of ours friends do not want to read the blog or say that they do not have enough time…ask questions and give your friends some more info despite the abuse of power in the bed room with young men.
Mention the content of the hell letter or Clara’s story with Dorothy or the breast cancer story mentioned earlier of a member who was asked by Robert to quite her relation ship with a non fof member and got the reply “do not wait till you get breast cancer”. Mention Janna’s story about R who needed to go to the jeweler to buy his new lover a gift and wanted to rush the event to get to the jeweler in stead. Etc, there are many of those stories to help people to open up their eyes. Or the story I heard that Robert spends easily 10.000 dollars a day on shopping, just for fun on expensive luxury objects or antiques even he is not sure they are real or fake…. We can go on and on.
3. Another story that came to my ears is that Robert has a Swiss bank account. Does anybody knows more about this? Why not, the man has a right to a good retirement.
4. Help each other to heal. Time is a factor. Many people have told me that leaving the fof is the toughest thing they did in their life. It seems like going through a gigantic mourning process. An average mourning process takes at least one year of more and many people suffer physical illnesses in that time. Help your friends to go to the emotions, like anger, crying, grief, revenge and any other which were considered “the expression of negative emotions”. Help each other of finally come to the place of acceptance and that you are not a failure in any way, nor a choosen one.
5. Come to the North Yuba food and wine festival on April 21 on Saturday. I think it is at the elementary school on Texas hill. A change for ex members and several students who will be there to meet each other. Maybe we can have a party afterwards…bring something to eat and drink and a chair. There are several places friends can hang out together, share, laugh, sit with each other and bear the joy and pains.
6. Be an active part in the non member Oregon House community with respect for each other. A small act of kindness goes a long way. (I am sorry for you and I love you). Be supportive of the children in the moment, children are the future. It takes a community to raise a child.
With all the love the universe has for you all and thanks for this blog that has been able to provide a way to express ourselves and sharing what is dear to our heart.
April 8, 2007 at 1:20 pm
I opened up a new discussion board.
NEW DISCUSSION.
This discussion is therefore being closed, you will only be able to comment in the new one. The old comments will stay here.
June 5, 2007 at 2:31 pm
[…] For part 5 click here. […]
November 7, 2009 at 5:12 am
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