Hello and welcome to the the Fellowship of Friends discussion. The article that you will find beneath was written by me about a year ago, since then this blog has been functioning as a neutral ground for people to discuss the organisation. There are hundreds of comments to go through so make sure that you have the time. Feel free to skip the initial article and move to the actual discussion, which is far more enlightening.
This is part 1 of the discussion.
For part 2 click here.
For part 3 click here.
For part 4 click here.
For part 5 click here.
For part 6 click here.
For part 7 click here.
For part 8 click here.
For part 9 click here.
For part 10 click here.
For sites in Russian and Italian, click http://fofway.narod.ru/ and http://laliberastrada.blogspot.com/ respectively.
The newest development has been the formation of a blog specifically designed to host the discussion, here it is: Fellowship of Friends Blog.
My visit to the Fellowship of Friends (written a year ago and not changed since)
I have had a very interesting experience today, I visited an informal presentation of the Fellowship of Friends (http://www.apollo.org/) to listen to their take on the Fourth Way teachings – teachings of Gurdjieff and his disciple Ouspensky. I am full of mixed feelings, I have just finished doing some rather extensive research on the Fellowship and the results were not happy, thus meeting some of my fears and intensifying my distrust of this cult.
I will structure this entry in the following manner: section 1) will deal with my visit to the Fellowship as it happened, with no added judgements; section 2) will try to put things into context using my additional research; section 3) will include my personal opinions on the visit, on the Fellowship etc.
1) The Fellowship headquarters in London are suited in a rather nice part of northern London, in an area that is much more beautiful and green than most, one that offers a rather enchanting landscape view of a small part of London which is otherwise hidden from sight.
The day of my visit to the Fellowship was a nice sunny day and many times was I forced to stop and take in the magnificent view. When I was nearing the house where the presentation was supposed to take place, I was overtaken by an old red car, most of it brightly painted over with psychedelic imagery, esoteric symbolism and pictures of tribal people drumming and dancing. I knew I was going in the right direction. And as I arrived at the end of my journey, there stood the inhabitants of the car – a large bald man with a green sweather and 3 massive crystal necklaces, a lady with hair the colours of the rainbow, and another lady who was slightly less outgoing and whose appearance therefore slipped my mind. I wrongly took them for the presenters at first, for they were just humble visitors, same as me.
I knocked on the door of a fairly large suburban house and was let in by a man of Eastern looks – a mixture of Russian and Arab features. He was dressed in a very expensive pastel suit, his looks could not have been any more perfect. He was the doorman – so you can imagine what the rest of the troupe who were to entertain us looked like. I went through to the living room and into the meeting chamber. There were smartly dressed people everywhere – most of them in their late 30s or 40s, all of them with easy manners, slight charm but also arrogance. I was seated on a chair and had a second to properly take in my surroundings. The house was beautiful – very tasteful, beautiful paintings, statues and other art, all in perfect position – everything looked very stylish and upper-class.
There were 3 men – or rather one 30+ years old man and two young men in their twenties, both of them with great expectations and slight naivity easily readable on their faces. I was to find out that the young men were brothers from Poland who came to find out more about the esoteric knowledge that this group had to offer. The older man was a new member of the Fellowship, his acting skills were not yet as highly developed as his colleagues’ therefore he came across as a rather down-to-earth kind of man. We briefly talked and I was happy to see some common interests between us, yet slightly disappointed by the two young men (who seemed intelligent but far too naive and unguarded not to be easily manipulated). We were later joined by a beautiful young woman either from Italy or Spain, also smartly dressed, who kept our company for a minute or two and fueled many sexual fantasies and desires for the two boys just by her presence. I was, of course, untouched. As long as falling in love on the first sight does not count.
Then came time for the presentation itself. We were seated by the man who was to chair the event – he moved us several times until he was certain that the ‘energy in the room was properly distributed’. This was a pretty funny event – adults were told to sit at other places, move their chairs, swap places and such – all of this I believe was meant to put us at ease. Then came the time for introductions.
The presenters were numerous and picked so that as many different types were represented – the main presenter was an English man, aristocrat appearance and an old-school beige suit, he had piercing eyes and a deep enchanting voice, he was the most charismatic manipulator I have ever met. His entourage consisted of an intellectual American (not an oxymorom), scruffy yet perfectly dressed Scottsman, the beautiful south-western European woman, 2 pretty older women (one English, one foreign) and about 3 other British men. All of them perfectly dressed, if in a rather eighteenth century kind of way.
The visitors were as follows: me, the 3 inhabitants of the psychedelic car, an unhealthy fat English lady interested in lucid dreaming, the two Poles, an uneasy scared Brit and possibly one or two others.
There were also some other Fellowship members who were not presenting and two Russians/Arabs in incredibly expensive summer suits who looked like bodyguards. The member:non-member ratio was roughly 2:1.
The presentation started and the basic ideas were put forward:
- there are 4 levels of consciousness going from the lowest to the highest: sleep, being awake (still asleep), awareness of oneself, and the final 4th state. The first state is experienced while dreaming, the second state is experienced while we are awake, yet it is like a dream in that we behave like robots – there is no self, no will and we react to outside influences in pre-programmed ways. These first two states are the only states experiencable without some heavy work on one-self. The third state usually happens once in one’s life and can be accessed again through techniques taught by the school. Through being in the third state continuosly one can access the fourth state and awaken. The only truly awakened is Robert Burton, the founder of the Fellowship;
- you can not achieve awakening on your own – you need a teacher who is farther down the road than yourself;
- awakening is the only way to keep on living after death – the only way to an after-life;
- psychology, psychotherapy and psychoanalysis are useless and wrong – they are a false science – the only way to cure oneself is through awakening oneself.
There were more ideas put through but I forgot what they consisted of. Something about turning negative feelings and emotions into positive energy (and self-awareness) and similar. The main speaker also made us do a short simple exercise on attention – the idea was that through being attentative (through ‘being in the room’) one can experience oneself experiencing his surroundings – what he sees, hears,… Through this split-awareness one can train oneself to fully experience everything and by prolonging this state one can enter the 3rd state of consciousness. – Readers who are aware of the concept of mindfulness or the teachings of Gurdjieff will understand.
Overall, a very interesting presentation – some things made sense, others were slightly absurd(such as that angels exist and talk with certain special individuals). I don’t know how much of it was taken from Gurdjieff or Ouspensky since I never read them. I suppose that much was added by Burton – probably a fair amount.
Then came time for questions which were answered in such a way as to create more interest in the subject, a genuine wish to find out more about the teachings. Manipulator galore. The idea that these teachings (and this school) were the only way to salvation were very quietly and with great skill fed to the listeners – mainly the idea that only the awakened will be given after-life. I asked why this school was more relevant than the other esoteric schools and before I even finished the last syllable I was answered that this school wasn’t more relevant – the only thing that was relevant was that at that moment I was in the Fourth Way school. All questions were treated as if they were trivial and did not deserve any time from the presenters.
Then came time for snacks, tea, coffee and informal conversation. I tried to talk to the guy who chaired the meeting but he quickly threw me in the direction of other members – he wasn’t wishing to talk to any non-members any more. So I found the American presenter and started a conversation with him, this is what I found:
– my personal mystical experiences were unknown to him, he did not understand them when I tried to explain them to him; that in itself is strange since most people who dabble in this area usually know what I am talking about;
– psychedelic drugs are not allowed in the Fellowship, they are viewed as a means to attaining higher states of consciousness in the short-term but they have negative effect in the long-term;
– there are supposedly 2 people in Britain who attained a permanent 3rd state of consciousness (he called it ‘crystallization’ I think), they were not present at the presentation;
– he said that he joined the Fellowship when he was 22 and that it’s a good time to start studying at a school and that the Fellowship changed his life. To that I replied that I have already had my life-changing experience and that I don’t think that my road is the same as that of the Fellowship, and that I did not agree with the Fellowship policy to take 10% of one’s annual revenue as membership payment each year since attainement of higher states of consciousness should be taught for free. To that he replied that I am not the only one to think that but that there were reasons for that fee (to show people’s willingness to suffer in order to prosper spiritually, and to use the fees to fund the school) and that if I choose not to join I should just keep on following the coincidences that have been happenin to me. Sound advice.
So I left without saying my goodbyes. It was a strange experience, god knows if it was positive or negative.
2) You might have gathered on your own that the Fellowship is a bit of a cult. Just how bad it is can be gathered from here:
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/f/fellowship/
http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html
The leader is quite definitely insane, a paedophile, brainwasher and manipulator. And he’s good. He likes people to dress up nice and smart, he doesn’t like people to joke, he hates smoking and, just for good measure, he dislikes pre-marital sex and homosexuality. That’s coming from a man who has had several lawsuits filed against him for forced homosexual acts. He also believes that he talks with 44 angels – including Jesus, Franklin and Goethe. Rock on Burton!!! Sadly enough this madman has managed to attract around 2000 followers.
3) This is the hard part. I hate to say it but some of the people I met in the Fellowship were incredibly inteligent, well-versed in esoteric studies, knowledgable and possibly quite far on the self-exploration path. They seemed to have that ‘it’ that serious students of alternate states of consciousness, the inner and outer realities, acquire after time. Doesn’t bode well with the cultist reality of the Fellowship but that’s what I was getting from them. After reading some more on these things I have to say that most of it was probably an act. The arrogance felt from the members of the Fellowship towards the listeners can be explained by the belief of these people that whoever is not a member is a worthless robot who deserves nothing from the superior members. This is a belief that is taught as a part of the teachings of the Fellowship of Friends, it always results in alienation from one’s family, friends, partner – you name it.
So be warned – there are better Gurdjieff organisations, other schools and other teachers. Cults should never be trifled with! I believe that an integral part of a personal journey is the (sub-conscious) search for a teacher, it would be a mistake to learn from false prophets. So don’t be attracted by easy gains, it’s better to wait for the real deal than to join a cult that offers the ‘perfect’ self-betterment practices. I have come across most of the techniques that were briefly talked about in the presentation at other places. One of the techniques that the Fellowship uses to attract new members is by putting Fellowship bookmarks into books in esoteric bookstores and libraries. Coincidence? – hardly.
So what is the lesson of the day? Always be sceptical, don’t trust or believe anything and let things happen as they wish. Your mission is to deal with it afterwards, integrate it and learn from it. Don’t let people manipulate you! And if you ever run out of money start a cult and put your esoteric knowledge to good use (as Burton did).
Animam Recro 
June 24, 2006 at 11:05 pm
Just a note to let you know that this well-mannered, well-dressed, country club cult, destroyed my life. The leader, Robert Burton, has destroyed many lives. Lawsuits brought against him are always settled with a clause that the petitioner not be able to discuss the cult. If you stay alert on line, you are sometimes able to communicate with those who have become litigious prior to the settlement. Stella Wirk and her husband have amusing and horrifying information about this cult, having been two of the original six members (including Robert Burton) who started the Fellowship of Friends. There are supposedly other Gurdjieff Ouspensky groups who are not as cultish and pyramid scheming financially as the Fellowship of Friends. Best of luck with your enlightenment.
July 24, 2006 at 10:01 pm
Hey
I got my first presentation this month (July) too.
The ideas presented weren’t new at all, well probably it is too soon to judge though since they said that I still have one more meeting.
What I disliked was:
– You cannot do it alone: that was a turn-off
– you have to pay 10% of your income (which should be not less than $20): that also turned me off and made me question them. Fine there are charges, but why give the 10% to them? One better give out 10% to different people (charity, family, etc…) asking for that 10% for just them is selfish! I’ll read “The 4th Way book” and see if I continue with them or not.
Oh btw, the reports on Rick Ross regarding R.B are alarming as well.
July 26, 2006 at 12:34 pm
Seriously watch out. First decide whether you truly do want to join a group, the history is full of people who managed great things on their own. There are also other ways to meet like-minded people than to join a group that may be potentially harmful to you. The Feollowship will be harmful to you, you have been warned.
If you still wish to join a Gurdjieff group, you might want to have a look at: http://www.disinfo.com/archive/pages/dossier/id132/pg1/index.html
If you don’t mind me asking why have you decided to seek help in your search for enlightenment and what do you think it is that the Fellowship has to offer that you can not get on your own? – as to the truthfulness of the Fellowship of Friends, it is a lie that you can not do work on yourself alone. If they lied once, who is to say how much of what they say is true.
August 5, 2006 at 6:16 am
I have been part of the fellowship for over 30 years, and have heard of many things that the “teacher” may have done.
I only know, that he promotes the pursuit of awakening for me. He has never approached me for anything claimed here. Have I heard of others that do get approached – yes. Is it rampant- no.
I read these comments, that question the idea that you cannot work alone – and recoil. To anyone who has seriously tried to awaken there has to be a recognition that by your self, you fall back to old patterns – to your old patterns of sleep.
Does the Fellowship offer something that cannot be found on your own — yes!
However, it is highly likely that it will take years to realize this.
Awakening – in its real meaning – is something that you cannot put into words. Awakening is a state that is beyond words, your body, your idea of what your existance is. Once you begin to get a taste, a glimpse of its true and real meaning, then your life gets a focus that will never be turned back – unless your preference is to sleep.
August 5, 2006 at 10:41 am
First things first, I am happy that you felt the need to comment on my article and on what other people had to say about the cult. The fact that you did not disclose your name, e-mail or any other information will work against you.
I am afraid that not only is awakening a very subjective experience, it is also something that is always a little bit out of reach, am I right? – it scares me to see someone who has been with the fellowship for 30 years, yet hasn’t achieved much and is still searching. If this is proof of the effectiveness of the Fellowship then I must say that I am not impressed. I know of numerous individuals outside the fourth way structure who have achieved more than you can possibly dream of in less time and without the need to join restrictive, freedom-destroying cults.
You also seem to think that the main reason for my dislike of the cult is what Robert Burton, the leader, did to some of his pupils (rape). That is quite incorrect – I have a problem with organisations that steal the freedom and money of gullible individuals with empty promises and well-planned social games. As far as I know, Fellowship members are not allowed to read other books than 4th way books, they are not allowed to listen to any other music than classical music hand-picked by the ‘master’, have to dress smart at all occassions, and have to pay extra money to the 10% of their income in order to help the school. The ‘master’ can dictate whatever nonsensical rules he wants, and there is no room for discussion. This goes against everything that Gurdjieff stood for – wasn’t he for never-ending questioning and finding out for yourself? Wasn’t he against blind belief? That, my friend, is the true reason I dislike the Fellowship of Friends.
You, my friend, have been subjected to 30 years of very very precise and targetted brainwashing. Subsequently your comment follows the Fellowship line so closely that it makes me retch – is there no freedom of thought in the cult? Are you not able to offer me any of your own thoughts on the subject? If you wish to defend the Fellowship, and I will give you the chance, I would like to interview you or any other member of the Fellowship to see whether you really are as content and enlightened as you say. My e-mail address is recroanima@gmail.com – please feel free to contact me.
August 15, 2006 at 1:56 am
I have no connection with FOF, but have been
a student of the Fourth Way etc for about 30
years, have done writing etc. in this area.
A comment on how far a person can 1) become
enlightened and 2) clear away personal and
cultural conditioning on his own. One can
only go so far with either of these entirely
on one’s own. A true teacher, whether teaching
in person or via writings or tapes (including
scriptures from world religions),
and by giving initation, can be a catalyst
for enlightenment far beyond what a person
could have achieved otherwise. The ideal is to
be a healthy student of a true and virtuous
teacher. This means open to truth, actively
seeking truth, not overly passive. It doesn’t
take long to get the basics, from which all
else is derived.
Teacher as catalyst is even more true in the
area of Work-on-self which includes examining
and clearing away personal and cultural
conditioning. Especially in the area of
personal conditioning, there are blind spots
and therapeutic ignorance of how
to effectively transform what is found. The
person doens’t know That they don’t know,
they don’t know What they don’t know, and they
don’t know How to effectively fix it if they
did know. No amount of thinking or introspection will allow us to find or fix these areas. Most people don’t know these
areas exist, though they’re constantly at the
effect of them in self and others. No matter how conscientious and self-reflective the
person may be, there is nothing
that compares to effective transformational
process delivered by a true teacher or effective
therapist. Some of this can be delivered in
small groups, which has very many advantages.
At least some private Work with a teacher/therapist is usually necessary, and
can be expedient in the absence of a group.
The forms that this Work can take are varied
in different traditions and approaches,
and the effectiveness, depth, elegance, safety,
and stability of result can vary widely as
well.
It helps to have a basic religious
alignment or agreement with a teacher, as a lot
of Work disasters stem from what derives from
basic religious beliefs or the absence of those
beliefs, or assumptions made about basic
religious beliefs without clarification or conversation, or a teacher’s hidden agendas
about changing a student’s basic religious
beliefs, or a student’s hidden agenda to do
some of the Work but avoid religious
beliefs that may be at the foundation of a
teacher’s teaching and Work. Some paths are
widely inclusive of many religious beliefs,
some are practically secular, some have
more narrow sectarian beliefs, others have
unusual beliefs, but it’s useful to disclose
underlying religious beliefs upfront so that students can make an informed choice. Check
for alignment, and eliminate unpleasant
surprises.
Despite the minefield in personal
transformation, Some intrepid souls will take
the risk to find high quality transformational
Work, and trust that that they can
course-correct as needed. Without the
prerequisites of sound spiritual foundation,
this trust in the larger life process and
discernment of truth, and ability to course-correct will be difficult, and therein lies
much of the problem with people and “cults”,
that early religious education failed
to prepare the person with spiritual basics
so when they seek what is advanced training
in groups or with a teacher or therapist,
they’re lacking in spiritual basics that are
going to hang them up later. The remedial
Work on these pre-requisites is not done.
I have several introductory articles on these
topics. cbwillis@lightlink.com.
C.B. Willis, M.A.
Consultant and Educator
Northern California
August 31, 2006 at 4:27 am
Ahem…speaking of arrogance…
May I refer you to your own remark “intellectual American (not an oxymorom).” Sneering is easy — but you’d better deliver the goods. America has outperformed your beloved U.K. in the last century, by almost any intellectual measure (and I’m adjusting for population differences).
The snottiness is particularly unearned since you misspell Scotsman on the same line above (c.f., newspaper of the same name).
You correct Scottsman to Scotsman, and I promise never to misspell Canadian.
August 31, 2006 at 4:28 am
(By the way, it’s “oxymoron,” not “oxymorom.”)
August 31, 2006 at 11:12 am
I am afraid that I am neither English nor American – I was born in the country of Czech Republic and English is therefore my second language. I concur that it may seem that I carry a double-standard towards Americans (who surely all possess better linguistic skills than me) but to be entirely truthful, I simply wished to create in you (and people like you) the exact feeling and disdain that I created. I hope that you are outraged because that is how I wanted you to feel.
As to my grasp of written English – it is far from perfect. And I am afraid that now I can not change the spelling of the above-mentioned words since it would make this discussion ultimately pointless and cheat future readers of our marvelous quips and remarks.
As to my disdain of the American population, I actually have more American friends than English and they are all amazing in various ways. They also laugh instead of sneering when I make similar remarks to those I made in this article – I wonder why my comment caught such a painful nerve in you.
America has outperformed Britain? Darling, America was created by Britain. And isn’t it an agreed-upon maxim that offspring always have to outgrow their parents (as one grows to maturity, the other grows old and withers)? Not to mention the geographic and population differences between the two countries.
I would also like to hear which intellectual measures we’re speaking of here. For example occultism, magic, and mysticism (naming those since this is a Fourth Way article afterall) are much more present in the foggy island of Britain than they will ever be in the cultural wasteland of America.
I hope that you reply to my comment so that we can keep this exciting discussion going. Are you as excited as me?
August 31, 2006 at 6:55 pm
I don’t excite that easily.
“America has outperformed Britain? Darling, America was created by Britain.”
Well, no, not really. There were lots of people living here already, who didn’t need to be created.
Not to mention the Spanish and French, who were living in large parts of America when it was acquired by conquest or bucks.
(Or the creation of a mainstay agricultural industry, largely on the involuntary backs of Africans.)
The “official language” was very nearly made German.
But thanks for being a sport! I thought for sure you’d remove my (in retrospect) rather snide comment.
September 1, 2006 at 5:19 am
“Well, no, not really. There were lots of people living here already, who didn’t need to be created.”
Countless cultures, languages, and lives lost in the genocide. Unfortunately, the influence of the natives on America at the time was minimal. They had no word in the development of the country, even when it was their land.
I don’t really want to takes sides on this issue, especially since the whole debate is off-topic but… take a look at the ‘founding fathers’… not too many Germans or French.
September 8, 2006 at 5:47 pm
‘I pierced and I was pierced’…..
September 29, 2006 at 5:46 pm
“THIS GOES AGAINST EVERYTHING GURDJIEFF STOOD FOR – (wasn’t he for never-ending questioning and finding out for yourself? Wasn’t he against blind belief?)”
-amen, and best of luck.
November 30, 2006 at 8:14 am
Well,
I am a member of FOF for over 15 years, and my sincere advise to all seekers : RUN!!! Because if you join, you’ll subject yourself to the influence which will INEVITABLY twist your understanding and ability to think and make decisions, infuse you with fear of life outside the Fellowship, and develop protective mechanisms (or what we call buffers) to justify your new beliefs. Just like the member who posted above, you’ll learn about the lies, corruption and abuse, but you’ll prefer to “not notice”. Yes, that’s what happens. Because if you say something – you’re out!
Regardless if you were there for 30 years faithfully paying your 10% – you’ll get a boot, and no one will talk to you, all your “friends” wil turn away. Because they are told so, and they are afraid. Cold, cruel policy with no conscience or compassion. Well, I guess, slaves don’t get compassion – and members are slaves!
Essentially, the school is like a drug – a psycological one – you’ll get dependent and will not be able to quit. You’ll hallucinate too, and will see things twisted and colored the way your teacher wants them to be. Please trust me, I speak from personal (withdrawal) experience.
As for awakening, we are told in the school that it will take life-times, and endless efforts (read the member above) and as of today NOT A SINGLE PERSON in our school achieved awakening or even got close. Even all those 30-year members – none except for one devoted party-liner whom teacher announced as an enlightened being, I guess to make things look good for others.
Long-term memers become so affected by this “teaching” that they cannot adapt to regular life anymore. To many the teacher became a father figure. (Often a sex-father-figure).
By the way, it’s not 4th way school. It’s just on the cover. 4th way is long gone. It’s “Robert’s teaching”, and what it really means is total obedience, trained behaviour, manners and dress code, huge monthly payments, and crazy ideas. They are not even ideas, they are some codes and his “keys” to the Bible and ancient texts, short prayers and symbols – not rational, not meaningful, not even funny. No questions allowed, no verifications, no doubts. Very religious. Does it look like 4th way to you?
People in the group often act like police – watch, listen and then – report. It is so corrupted, there is so much money squeezed out of students – just to create a very, very high lifestyle for the Teacher. Oh, he is actually Beloved Teacher.
This School will not bring you to awakening. It will enslave you.
But to be fare – in first 2 -3 years you’ll get to know some very cool people, learn some basic Ouspensky terminology and will actually be able to observe more of yourself and others. You’ll even have some fun! Probably travel to different places and meet people from other countries. You’ll experience fine dining (very expensive though), high class events in rose gardens with fountains (again -it ain’t free), learn some manners and get some class. You’ll look good in toxedo! Women are not allowed to wear pants or jeans, so buy some nice dresses, ladies.
But fun will end, the longer you stay the deeper you sink. And just like the animal who was caged his whole life, you’ll lose sence of freedom and will start defending your cage.
Why i don’t list my name? For the fear of prosecution of course. Why I don’t leave the group? I think the time hasn’t come yet, and there are people in the group in need of support and help. I have dear friends who are stuck and I fell it’s my duty to try helping them. If I get kicked out they may not be able to communicate with me.
AGAIN, I BEG YOU – DO NOT JOIN THIS GROUP. DON’T. AND TELL OTHERS TOO.
If you really feel “spiritual” – check out some Advaita teachers, like Sailor Bob Adamson, Tony Parsons or Adyashanti – much cooler! Don’t pay Robert, he’s already making 5 mil a year from his students (not kidding).
December 4, 2006 at 6:40 am
Dear E.S.
Thank you for providing this medium for us to talk. One of the principle means of control used by groups like Robert’s is how, when, and to whom information is disseminated. There is a megaphone for all that rings positive about the fellowship, and a sophisticated kind of suppression of questioning and doubt.
This is one more open door for us. I would invite all to take advantage of this site, for ANY commentary that seems pertinent. Personally I have always tried to avoid exaggeration – especially about this theme. The more I learn, however, about the increasingly manipulative, religious, and essentric nature of our organization, the more I understand why members various accounts sound extreme. The facts ARE extreme.
Although anonymity is a compromise, it allows those of us who are heavily ‘invested’ a way to of trusting what we see, percieve, or hear from others. It is shared by many. We just don’t know it yet.
Good luck,
St. Fillan
December 12, 2006 at 12:19 am
Hello ‘X’,
If, what you say is true, quote : … you’ll subject yourself to the influence which will INEVITABLY twist your understanding and ability to think and make decisions, infuse you with fear of life outside the Fellowship, and develop protective mechanisms (or what we call buffers) to justify your new beliefs’
Why then would we want to take what you write seriously in the first place as you have already invalidated yourself. Are we to take then that after 15 years in the School your understanding is twisted and you are unable to make desicisons, and even less give advice..?
The mind is tricky, and the ‘evil god of self calming’ is alive and well, we all compromise to a greater or lesser degree. I suggest that you remain in the Fellowship, and if you’re lucky you will realise just how little you do actually ‘know’ yourself.
NB: Is this thread a lateral Octave, and if so – to what purpose….?
Alexis
December 18, 2006 at 12:36 am
Dear All – the mind is indeed tricky and awakening is not it’s domain. The Fellowship is a cult and for some that’s just fine as are all forms of the great dream shared by most on the planet. Really the question is “do you want out of the dream? Out of Illusions?” the other question is “is what you are doing helping you or is it just another illusion?”
Good Luck
December 18, 2006 at 7:37 pm
This discussion is getting more and more interesting – please do keep it going.
In the past two weeks I received these two e-mails:
(1)
Cristina R
to me
hello,
I have recently read what U wrote at
and it appeared very interesting for me. Just to be clear from the very beginning-I am not an advocate of Rorbert Burton nor am I supporting his teaching. More than that, I have done some research on the Internet and found out some messages and articles that didn’t seem favorable at all as to his teaching. My problem is that I have friends who are part of the organisation and even my boyfriend is and I feel that they have been pulled into this whole thing without realising that IT IS a cult. It scares me how people can be so easily manipulated and how they can be so fascinated by beautiful things-because luxury is part of Robert’s teaching. I would like to have your opinion on this and to get your impression-for me it is almost impossible to have a normal discussion with any of the members of FOF as they fully support Robert’s teaching and they believ that they are awakened whereas others are not. Also, if you have any other materials or if you have discussed with people who were once members of the cult, that would be of great help for me, even though I frankly don’t believe that things will change for my friends or the FOF in itself. It is much too powerful.
I am looking forward to receiving your message,
Cristina
and (2)
Sonya L
Hello,
I have recently read what you wrote about the Fellowship of Friends on the Internet. It sounded interesting but frightful in the same time. The fact is that I have friends who are in this organisation and I fear myself that it might be a cult-I don’t have though the necessary “documentation” to claim that. Could you help me out with some information, please? I believe that Robert Burton is a very powerful, charismatic person who will continue to lead this organisation for ever, unfortunately. Is there anyhthing that can be done ?
Thank you,
Sonya
Now I am a very simple man but I do have a paranoid mind. I am aware of how the fellowship meticulously clears up all evidence of its activities and settles with ex-members in such a way as to make certain that no more information leaks the organisation. I have heard of the lawsuits, I can imagine who would want to know whether I have any links to ex-members of the fellowship or any ‘documentation’ belonging to the cult.
I will post anything else that comes to my hands, I hope that it will amuse you as much as it has amused me.
Have fun and freedom for all.
December 18, 2006 at 11:17 pm
St.Fillan,
As someone has said: ‘The root of all Evil is Gossip’ (No, it wasn’t Burton)and I believe this to be true. Are you asking for a official wailing wall for disgruntled Students?
Alexis
December 19, 2006 at 8:34 pm
Anonymous’ post is a most thoughtless and unnecessary twisting of ‘X’s thoughts and is an excellent example of what Gurdjieff called “formatory thinking”. The fact that ‘X’ is aware of the commonplace that “group think” tends to destabilise one’s own individual perceptions to the point even of delusion (and that this is happening in the Fellowship of Friends) does not automatically mean that his own perception of this well-known fact must be deluded. Having spent years in the Fellowship, I cannot but agree with him.
There is a psychological process that one undergoes in order to adapt to the culture of the Fellowship. One can be either more or less aware of it (the more aware of it one is, the less comfortable one will be, and the more need there will be to suppress it). The human tendency in group situations is towards conformity of thought and behaviour, as in any long-term group dynamic, religious or secular. It is often necessary to buffer the ‘cognitive dissonance’ that arises when one’s own values are different from or even antithetical to those of the group if one wishes to stay or is frightened into believing that one will be thrown out with no where else to go.
This is certainly the case for many in the Fellowship at one time or another. The problem for students is that they are taught categorically, and reinforced socially, that any doubts, criticisms or problems they have with the Teacher or the School are unsound. These perceptions are not only unsound, they are positively diabolical, and said to emanate from that part of the “machine” which is the enemy to awakening and which seeks to sabotage one’s work. Some students are finally able to regain trust in their own capacity to see the truth (this often takes years of painful soul-searching), and see that what they were believing in or have outgrown is now clearly seen as one’s participation in one’s own self-deception, not to mention that in doing so, one has succumbed to a less than wholesome teaching.
But until students see this they will also be like the person who is at the stage of full indoctrination: they can only have one response to themselves and to others: if one doubts or perceives that something is “evil,” it is their enemy, their “king of clubs” speaking, and that, as yet unawakened beings, they are incapable of determining truth, as such “negative” perceptions are indicative of a lower dualistic level of consciousness (interesting how even people who discover non-dualistic Advaita or Buddhism still recognise when people are behaving badly and how this is directly connected with real spiritual level). In any case, trying to talk to a person fully in the grip of this fundamentalism is like talking to the person who has heard of the psychological term “denial” and uses that concept in order to nullify everyone who disagrees. E.g., “You want to leave because you’ve fallen prey to your own limited ego, but that’s where you’re deluded.” Response: “No, I’m saying that I have seen that I’ve been deluded and now I’ve woken up.” “No, you are in denial. You’re not qualified to say what’s delusional and what isn’t, since you’re not awake.”
That, my friends, is a subtle trap. You must trust yourselves. What you have made into your enemy (your own conscience and your own common sense) is your best and finest friend. This common sense is your integrity, that unity that you have been seeking and which needs to grow. In the pursuit of higher consciousness and mystical states, one must not lose sight of one’s full humanity.
The problem with closed-systems of thought is just that: they are closed. In the Fellowship, as in most, if not all fundamentalist cults or sects, there is never any good reason to leave. This is an assumption underlying the intolerant and ignorant attitude held by some (not all) students, an attitude taught and cultivated by RB. It follows that if there can be no good reason to leave, there can only be bad reasons. The worldview is conceived in black & white. Especially for Fourth Way students, this extreme dualism should be a flag of the chief characteristic of formatory thinking: “either/or”. ‘X’ has clearly ‘verified’ for himself that one is in danger of losing one’s common sense, one’s ability even to perceive truth if one becomes too psychologically, socially, and materially entangled in the Fellowship.
Many students have found that they have had to make significant adjustments to their ideas of good and evil, to the serious detriment of truth and wisdom and the peace of their own consciences. Students will have to reconcile what they see as cruel, arbitrary and aberrant behaviours with grand, artistic, mystical, and psychologically perceptive words. It would be good for them at some point to understand that there is and must be a harmonious connection between mystical ‘states’ and ethical actions. This is what people understand in their heart of hearts when they seek a spiritual teacher; otherwise they will be accepting second best; this pure perception of goodness is what they stand in danger of losing if they put their moral compass in the hands of one who cannot exemplify real ‘higher love’, a higher love which is not disembodied, for that is far too easy, but thoroughly embodied in consistent acts of kindness and humility.
December 26, 2006 at 10:14 am
I don’t quite follow you, Alexis. You mean if I discuss President Bush and what the Republican Party has done to the U.S., that’s “gossip”?
Without this kind of “gossip,” how do you hold any individual or group accountable for their actions? Doesn’t a cloak of silence hamper accountability?
Beyond this, if someone is holding himself or herself up as a “conscious being” or whatever … well, shouldn’t we be looking at who they are, really? Even more so when they attempt to direct others? Isn’t a clear-eyed examination of who they are (not merely what they say)likely to be a reasonable indication of where they will be leading others?
And if we don’t do this, aren’t we stuck examining people only by their speeches and words? And isn’t that (at best) “knowledge” and not “being”? After all, anyone can sound good in front of a microphone.
It seems to me that the wish to avoid “gossip” can be a good way to keep people in the fog.
December 29, 2006 at 4:07 pm
To Former Student: I agree to disagree, but what you say in your remarkable Intellectual essay has not been my experience.
Anna, I thought that the primary aim was ‘to Know Thyself’ and not ‘To know Robert Burton’?
December 29, 2006 at 4:27 pm
Anna, my last comment is meant to be taken tongue in Cheek…. Jeezz…..Happy New Year
December 31, 2006 at 3:57 pm
23 comments already, a good number by my accounts. Anyhow, I am really happy to keep an eye on this discussion, especially as there is no need for me to join in. So far the deciding factors for me for who to side with have been the honesty, rational thought and good intentions of the former members of the group. Defenders of the fellowship usually show a lot more aggession, less arguments (most of them being repetitive beyond belief) and more indoctrination – very often they remind me of some religious fundamentalists I have had the displeasure of listening to.
I don’t think that I can do a better job than what has already been done by the numerous individuals who have commented on my humble recollection of a visit to the Fellowship of Friends. What they have to say (and how it makes you feel) is the best way to make up your own mind.
January 1, 2007 at 3:36 am
Camps are being formed, for and against, and as suspected what keeps E.S happy is any possible bunfight between Students and ex students.
My argument is that by understanding yourself you will understand Burton.
Alexis
January 2, 2007 at 8:56 pm
Alexis, I find your posts disturbing.
Please do not take this as a nasty potshot or an attempt to drive you from this discussion – I’ve hesitated to respond for exactly that reason, and will withdraw after this post to keep from creating a personal digression. My comments to you are rooted in concern. I do not think you know yourself — ironically, the very thing you are advocating for all of us.
Are you aware of how defensive and passive-aggressive your posts are? You fire a verbal shot, then say you were “tongue in cheek,” or feign exasperation (“Jeezz”), to preempt us from engaging you on the issues you appear to raise. You shoot oblique and meaningless pseudo-profundities (“I pierced and I was pierced”) into the discussion to deflect thought. You hint that legitimate concerns are “gossip,” and then blow away my legitimate questions about whether you can ever assess the claims of an organization without such “gossip.”
If you review the internet articles, postings, and blogs, you will find that this organization and its leader have been accused of massive fraud and lying (with fake prophecies, fake promises to those who have sex with the leader, the ballyhooing of fake conscious beings, all the while raking in lots of money). The allegations may or may not be true, but they can’t be blown away by breezy bromides about “knowing thyself.” (And, to address your purportedly facetious comment, “knowing thyself” doesn’t preclude knowing about other things — in fact, it’s wise to know something about your job, your home, and how to drive a car as well).
Unlike you and E.S., I honestly don’t know from this discussion who are the members, who are the ex-members, and who are the non-members merely reading this site. I don’t assume all members are brainwashed and without questions; I don’t assume all ex-members are disgruntled. So I don’t see the “camps” you are referring to. Could they exist your head? More importantly, perhaps, is all this an example of Fellowship thinking? It’s kinda scary.
January 4, 2007 at 4:22 am
All
I’d like to share a theme which has become prevalent in many recent conversations with members, though not always made explicit. This theme deals with one of the primary difficulties in leaving the group: the fear of isolation.
To give some background: in the fellowship, we have an ongoing exercise (or task) to cease contact with members that have left the group. The more fundamentlist members of our group have deep-seated negative beliefs about ex-members, and attendant fear and discomfort at even crossing paths with these individuals. At another end of a wide spectrum of beliefs are members that have little regard to the task,
albeit in most cases, maintaining their friendships with ex-members very privately. Members maintaining contact with ex-members are subject to warnings and are ultimately asked to leave the group if they are openly non compliant.
Regardless of a member’s position on this or other tasks, one underwrites the view, promoted by those in charge, that ex-members have lost the “most precious gift in the universe – the opportunity to awaken”. In general the outsider or non-member is devalued; in spiritual terms, he or she is considered only a possibility, whose true potential is dependent upon living in the fellowship. Fellowship rhetoric does, after all, frequently imply the group’s spiritual hegemony over all other groups in relation to the divine. The ex-member, then, is considered someone whose possibilities have ended. The ex-member is assigned the very particular status of being cursed. Again, it is important to mention that this is not representative of the deep-seated beliefs of all, but it is the view promoted by the leaders and is publicly accepted by many.
That said, many of us are at a turning point after 15, 23, or 30 years in the group. For a variety of reasons, the least of which may be the aforementioned dillema, we want to move on. Having arrived at this point, which may involve the undoing of financial or practical ties, we are left with one very large fear – that we will lose most of our friends.
Traditionally, long-time members leaving the group have moved away to some place where they could start a new life, especially if they have
hitherto lived in or close to the community. There are however, those ex-members that have remained in the area, and to a greater or lesser
extent, they exist with the stigma of being outsiders. It seems now that this is changing.
Now many members associate with the growing number of ex-members living nearby – these are after all, old friends that may have shared a good part of their lives. Beliefs are challenged by simple human facts; that members care for, and are inspired by their friends. In the recent words of one member, toward an ex-member and friend, “love and friendship are beyond all that”.
Some members have remade friendships after years of – at best – cordial hellos at the post office. Others are unable to revive lost
relationships. Emotional breakdown sometimes occurs in cases where, having seen through their divisive attitudes, members are unable to repair historic divisions within friendships, marriages or family.
Five years ago, my good friend left the group, and in his case, I have privately maintained contact. For five years I have watched him
flourish spiritually and emotionally, and this has subtly challenged my beliefs every step of the way. The belief that by following the task I protect my self and my ‘work’ from lower influences and deviations is melting down. An alternate view of the task is that of a device, that helps solidify the fellowship beliefs that are promulgated by the leaders. Moreover, the
fear that is a product of such beliefs might mitigate the unthinkable – that I may someday find it not only acceptable, but even desirable, to leave the group.
If we reach out, we find that the concepts of inside and outside are dualistic in nature, limit understanding, and in many of us, engender
fear. This serves the instinctive needs of the group while compromising the individual. To put a different spin on a oft-quoted fellowship
jingle: the King of Clubs is keeping us in the school.
For many years I privately held the view that only formatory mind was capable of alienating ex-students. While underwriting the central
beliefs of the group, I espoused a value system of my own. Now I am forced to consider a whole framework of school beliefs, which encompasses those aspects I still value, as well as those which I find reprehensible. I no longer enjoy the luxury of compartmentalizing concepts to make them fit inside my head. It is my good fortune that the remorse is not causing emotional breakdown, as I have seen in some
cases; After all, I shared a special language and mentors – to whom I would now refer as The Great Explainers – that gave me permission. We spun contradictions variously as ‘work on attitudes’ and ‘feeding the higher self, not the lower’ and when the buffer succeeded, we called it ‘separation’. Clearly the Work ideas have practical and useful applications in our group, especially when second line and first line are healthy. What cannot be ignored however, is the growing tendency to use ideas without reference to context in the present moment. Good ideas become degraded by misapplication and by self-serving use. Self-reinforcing logic becomes the only frame of reference for many members, effectively
disconnecting them from broader and deeper thought..
The so-called work in this paradigm is in many cases defined not only by superficial, but deeply psychological forms of exclusion and
exclusivity. When we realize this, we are forced to confront, and perhaps to reconcile the contradiction; well-learned dissociative behavior has become the seedbed for misconception.
One of the many outcomes of this illusory construct, which develops over many years, is the fear of isolation. The cornerstone of that
construct, to playfully misquote Gurdjieff, would read something like this: “Life is only real, then, when I am – in the fellowship – “.
If we are prepared and willing to bring more of what we can plainly see to bear on our psychology, a disquieting storm starts to gather, and what we thought was solid ground begins to fall away from under us.
In the words of Mark Twain: “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you into trouble. It’s what you know for sure, that just ain’t so.”
January 4, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Luke – in my opinion, you give an accurate assessment of the real dynamic that keeps people in the Fellowship of Friends. And you can add to fear of loss of friendship, the many other vested interests and material advantages that serve to imprison people in the FOF – under the guise of spiritual work.
To talk from the FOF paradigm, the whole phenomena might be explained as a divine experiment (of the gods) to discover the following:
What degree of behavioral, moral, and emotional corruption, and intellectual degradation will the human organism accept?
How far and for how long will a deluded and dysfunctional individual, whose conduct exposes himself, specific individuals, and the entire group to risk, liability, and other damaging consequences be followed without question or challenge?
How easily can individuals be enticed to surrender their extant values and standards and succumb to psychological tyranny, by adopting a narrow and fixed frame of reference that divorces them from the broader realities of life, with all its natural checks and balances.
How much money can be extracted by teachings, prophecies, and theories of spirituality that by any metrics are proven to be fallible or injurious?
The long term members of this group have truly lost their spiritual compass, but dare not perceive this to be true: the rationalizations and dissociative thinking are fantastic – for an otherwise intelligent and successful group of people.
January 5, 2007 at 11:05 pm
From above, “And you can add to fear of loss of friendship, the many other vested interests…” Such interests include maintenance of authority, position and status, stability & security, material comforts, and avoidance of the inconvenience of changing the comfortable status quo. All these factors – and many more subtler psychological motives – serve to imprison people in the FOF. Such UNextraordinary motives are couched in language that attempts to mystify and ennoble the humble reality.
Often, members resolve the discomfort that arises when a departure challenges their own basis for remaining, by concluding that “the King of Clubs” took them out of the school”. The implication here is always one of a personal failure of the departing student. (A departure must not be interpreted as a failure of the methods of the school.) This definition of failure stimulates in the remaining students a sense of superior virtue, as – in the contrast – their own work appears to have greater integrity. I have seen this play of attitudes repeatedly. The irony here is that the (instinctively entrenched) members would employ the King of Clubs explanation to denounce departing students even where the departure necessarily includes the loss of all the comforts of the status quo: friends, home, community, spouse – every single aspect of their life that has for many years constituted their entire world. Departing is much rougher than staying.
The teaching cautions against the “King of Clubs” as the enemy of awakening. The concept of the evil King of Clubs is a simple device (well documented in cult research ) that alienates common sense and all practical and intellectual discrimination: any idea or action inimical to the aims of the teacher is labeled the action of the King of Clubs, and is in this way invalidated. This device neutralizes any threat posed by questioning or doubt. With this device integrated into fellowship thinking, no real verification or informed acceptance of principles is possible. No valid way out of the fellowship exists for a member that internalizes the FOF concept of the King of Clubs: a departure is by definition a failure and can never be rational: a powerful and dangerous device, and one of many, MANY instances of faulty thinking that are endemic to fellowship culture. The many similar trite formulae and all the pseudo-logic (although, more recently, outright nonsense) manufactured by the Teacher and swallowed by the many, support the mechanism of brain washing in the fellowship. That mechanism is all the more effective for the continuous infusion of pageantry, grandiosity, and all the affectation of refinement that so characterizes public life in the FOF.
January 12, 2007 at 10:11 pm
I would like to respond to A’s post, which states “that by understanding yourself you will understand Burton”. He has said something very important here, though my interpretation of his statement will likely diverge from what he intended.
By understanding yourself, you will understand Burton: Quite true. If one understands oneself, one will also have a better understanding of what motivates the “Teacher”. That is, one’s own motives will prove to be the same or similar to the Teacher’s, for the fundamental reason that students and teachers are both human beings, with accordingly similar basic needs and psychologies. This point of view departs, however, from orthodox Fellowship teaching and belief. A good example: While still a member, I invited a student friend and her husband, to dinner. We were discussing the Teacher’s sometimes “mysterious” behaviour. I said that we needed to remember that in addition to his being our Teacher, he was also a human being. “No he is ISN’T!” she shouted from across the dinner table. “He’s a G—O—D!” That is, the Teacher is not a human being, but a different category of being altogether. I was shocked by her vehemence but was glad to hear her point of view, as I liked her, and a more concise declaration of Fellowship dogma I had never heard. A “conscious being” is so very unlike “ordinary” people, who are “sleeping” machines, as to be another creature entirely. This anthropology is at the heart of Gurdjieff’s Fourth Way teaching and at the heart of the FoF’s.
Being “conscious” means that one has not only learned to access higher states at will, but that one is oneself a higher being. Thus empowered, one is no longer subject to the same laws that govern lower beings, that is, the rest of us. I am reminded of Nietzsche’s “superman” who megalo-maniacally arises out of the weak and ignorant masses to forge his own morality out of his own will-to-power (one can easily see how Nietszche was such an inspiration to the Nazis) and how the authoritarian Gurdjieff may have been influenced by his ideas, whether directly or indirectly (Ouspensky was certainly aware of them); we in the individualised West, have certainly inherited them. Yet, the “superman”, Nietzsche’s bold replacement for the God who had died, was ultimately still a man, although (theoretically at least), much improved by his self-conscious daring and genius.
Interestingly, at the rarified level of the FoF-type conscious being, some of the rights and privileges of a higher being would appear to be the uncensored enjoyment of sensory gratifications involving, food, drink, sex, and money, as well as the intoxicating gratifications of being worshipped . . . and feared as a god. Because these pleasures are enjoyed and exercised by a conscious being, they somehow assume a different character. They are absorbed into the character of the actor, if you will. Yet one can see also that in wider society, it isn’t only ‘spiritual beings’ who, when they achieve a certain power and influence, are all too willing to exercise unrestricted privileges at the expense of others, but persons of a quite material orientation, including those less privileged, are also equally willing to “act out” more fully these same desires when circumstances finally conspire to allow them greater scope.
It is easy to acknowledge that greed, lust, vanity, and inordinate desire for power are motives behind all of our overly-indulgent actions. These aspects of our nature are so well known, that all the major religions have recognised them throughout their histories: the sage or the saint has always been distinguished not only by their perceived proximity to the divine, however that is conceived, but according to how s/he handles the very natural ‘temptations’ or ‘desires’ that “flesh is heir to”.
Interesting then, how FoF teaching would ascribe the extravagant acting out of these desires to “higher” causes, since they are enacted by a “conscious being”. Thus the Teacher’s words and actions are judged, strangely, by a so-called “higher” standard, and vices are made out to be virtues. Attitudes or actions incongruent with the teaching of the majority of sages and teachers, previously understood by means of common sense, which implies the knowledge of one’s own nature and thus of other human beings’, is instead, mystified behind a counterfeit standard.
In transcending it, one does not leave behind one’s human nature, but rather “perfects” or purifies it. The Buddha taught purifying the mind and body through mindfulness and non-attachment, and compassion through his ethics, which requires at all times, the respecting of persons and their property. Even Christ, “the Son of God”, had no problem humiliating himself by following rules meant for ordinary, humble people. “I have not come to change one jot or tittle of the law, but to fulfil it.” In fulfilling and transcending the law, he not only did not abandon its basic tenets, but made it even more exacting, by extending its sovereignty ever more into our protected inner territory, as in his purifying teaching that one doesn’t have to act out adultery to have committed it; simply to have looked upon a woman with lust was to have committed it in one’s “heart”. Or in the beatitude “Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God”.
Although the FoF’s teaching has departed from the The Fourth Way, and the Fourth Way was at the outset only a root upon which RB’s teaching was grafted, the cosmological concept known as the Ray of Creation has added its burden to the belief that a conscious teacher is above the law. In the Ray of Creation, the earth is a very long way down, the last to the bottom-most rung, which terminates at the moon, an eater of souls. The further down the Ray of Creation, the more laws one is under. The object of the pupil is to free him/herself from these “unnecessary” laws and to put oneself under the influence of higher laws. Therefore, as has been said, according to FoF teaching, ordinary normative ethics apply only to those living in a lower level of consciousness, and are banished to that derogatory realm under the laws of “feminine dominance” (all the social rules one learned from one’s mother): that uncreative, mechanical region inhabited by dull “Life People”, sleeping machines, “who do not know themselves”, who understand little and who are capable of nothing else but the blind following of someone else’s arbitrary rules. Thus could RB reduce the loving acts of Mother Theresa, for example, to “mechanical goodness”, i.e., she just couldn’t help but help other people. In this dismissive and pseudo-majestical “dispensing of existence”, he thus relegated her and others who might be tempted to emulate her, to fodder for the moon. Would that we could all be like her, or Gandhi, so spontaneously self-sacrificing, generous and loving!
Under such teaching, one is asked to disbelieve what one’s senses and intuition know even without words, which is that Mother Theresa and Gandhi and others like them are doing good. Instead one is instructed to believe, counter-intuitively, and against one’s common sense, that the good actions of such people are at best useless, and at worst, evil (in the Fourth Way’s sense of evil as mechanicalness). This harsh gavel falls merely on the basis of one’s teacher conclusion that although these good people appear “awake”, they are in fact, asleep; they are definitively “unconscious beings”. The logic is this: When a “conscious being” does good, it really is good, but when a sleeping machine does good, . . .
One might ask: What could be more predictably, historically, humanly mechanical than the temptation to exploit one’s exalted position to indulge one’s every whim? Thrasymachus, a character in one of Plato’s dialogues, maintains, unsuccessfully, thank goodness, that as far as any real definition of justice is concerned, ‘Might makes right.’ I would be much more convinced, as I think most people would, of any person’s sanctity and claims to godliness (especially when the claim to divinity is exclusive of 6.5 billion other human beings on the planet) if such an exalted personage did NOT indulge their every whim, and did not, deplorably, attempt to twist vices into virtues, especially when those so-called virtues are paid for by the sweat and toil of others, while at the same time, wilfully inducing paralysis in one’s tender devotees and workers by wielding over their heads visions of spiritual extinction and the loss of all their friendships should they decide—at any point ever—to move on and to grow. I myself should be greatly vigilant if told: “The only way to graduate from the School is to die”.
But it is for each individual to decide amongst the possible motives for such statements and kinds of teaching. It could be useful to ask oneself why anyone, especially oneself, would say or teach such things. Best wishes to all.
January 20, 2007 at 6:32 am
For me much said in the last several posts from former members rings true. I was in the Fellowship twenty-some years. As early as 1984 when Miles left I had the thought: “Well, it may be right for Miles to leave now, but I know that it isn’t right for me.” The seed was planted then and it took nearly 20 more years before it was right for me to leave… (passive type).
Early on I had developed a worldview differing from Robert’s, but generally kept it to myself, and did the necessary mental gymnastics needed to rationalize some of Robert’s views and actions. It took many years to finally realize the limitations of the intellectual center!! … It is true that the emotional center leaves first and it took years before the other centers got it together to leave also. The leaving process was difficult. I really enjoyed being in the Fellowship. I enjoyed what I was doing, the people and the many good aspects of the Fellowship…but the ship, as beautiful as it was, was going where I knew I could no longer go.
I think the important thing to remember is that one has to go through all of these stages for oneself and at ones own pace. It is all “grist for the mill.” So it makes no difference if one is reading this post from within or without the Fellowship. We are all… still on a train, going somewhere, though we may have changed seats or moved to another coach. Keep listening to the place within that knows. Best to you all.
January 24, 2007 at 3:32 am
Many of us have joined this group because we had hopes to “know thyself”. Or – to be liberated, or – to achieve awakening. Some joined out of boredom to meet new friends, spouses, some were in need for a father figure. Some just wanted a visa to America! As time went by, some of us got visas, some got married and met friends. Lots of young insecure males (kind of like our friend Alexis) got their “daddy” feeding them and buying them clothes, and puling their pants down… Did anyone awake? Did someone got to know himself? I mean, honestly. Anyone liberated? No! No one! In almost 12,000 people that went through this school for over 30 years – no one got liberated. And if you think mister Girard got liberated – why don’t you ask him, or even better – go visit him at his house and see how (and what) he is doing … The reality is that lots of people got damaged emotionally and financially, got totally lost, entangled in themselves, broke down. Lots of people are so scared of the world that they are incapable to live their lives outside the Fellowship. Sounds really liberating, on all levels. Does it tell you something?
FOF is a great business, and the ONLY goal is – to make money. You are promised something you’ll never get, (well, not this lifetime, dear) and you asked to pay through the nose for it. Because you don’t know any better, or just get “hooked” on high states (just like a drug addict) – you get sucked in, brainwashed, and actually don’t mind paying. You start liking your cage after 10plus years! You defend it, and attack anyone who comes near.
Whatever the teacher does – he charges a lot for it. Breakfast, lunch, dinner, reception, meeing, picture taken with him – each of this will cost you from a 100 to 1000. The guy is simply raking it in. It’s all about the money.
Do you know for example, what is the main “task” for center directors? Help you to wake up? Assist you on your path? Not really. It is – To attract more members, recruit, catch, trap. Get the money! Get them to join! The “questionnare for directors” says: (I actually copy the original here)
Did you have activities to advertise the school? Please indicate yes or no in the list below.
Ads in Newspapers
Bookmarking
Brochures
Flyers
Newsletters
Open meeting
Others
Posters
Web site
Word of mouth
Please use the list below to indicate how many prospective students found us
Through Ads in Newspapers
Through Bookmarking
Through Brochures
Through Flyers
Through Newsletters
Through Open meeting
Through Others
Through Posters
Through Web site
Through Word of mouth
How many prospective students did you have participating in a first meeting?
How many students joined after the first meeting?
Did someone bring friends to the second meeting, if yes, how many?
How many prospective students did you have participating in a second meeting?
How many students joined after the second meeting?
You see for yourself – NOT A WORD ABOUT WAKING UP. NOT A WORD ABOUT LIBERATION. I wish I can send you a link so you can read it yourself – but it’s password protected site.
What does it tell you? Isn’t it just an agressive recruiting campaign? Why there is such a burning desire to attract members, may be to “wake people up”?
Well, because it brings 5 million a year in teaching payments, plus another 4-5 mil in additional charges for dinners, photos and such. IT’S ALL ABOUT THE MONEY. Again, It’s all about the money.
And that would be almost fine, if the teacher gives you back. If he actually teaches you to wake up. Or -cares about your progress. Then – who care what it costs! But the truth us – HE DOESN’T CARE! AND HE HAS NO CLUE!!! He really has no idea how to be present, he cannot communicate a thing to his students. The bullshit he is saying lately is so absurd – even the “followers” are starting to loose faith. This is from “Anatomy of the Sequence”: However, Christ is behind Judas, and the nine of hearts is behind Christ, so Judas’ failure is ultimately the failure of the nine of hearts. – Huh?
Or read this: “His name was Gilgamesh from the very day of his birth”—from short Be—the birth of the steward. “He was two-thirds god, one-third man.” “One-third man” refers to short Be; “two-thirds god” refers to middle Be and long BE. Schools assume that if you successfully pass through middle Be, you will complete your sequence. – Sounds so 4th way! You joined the 4th way school, remember?
Or – this one: Following Robert’s recent comment that “behind the steward is the nine of hearts, and behind the nine of hearts is divine presence, and behind divine presence are Influence C, and behind Influence C is the Absolute,” we will aim at better
understanding the responsibility of the nine of hearts in this divine equation and how to ensure its proper work.
If this is not MADNESS, then – what is?
Sadly, many students are so conditioned, addicted and stuck, that they have no other way but listen, obey and believe. And, most importantly – PAY!
Again – if any of you for some crazy reason have a thought about joining this group – please don’t! Do yourself a favour and go elsewhere. This man, RB, has no clue about awakening, he has no clue about the nature of things – all he does is squeezes out money and sperm from people.
I am so happy to finally be out of it!
January 24, 2007 at 7:07 am
I joined the FOF in 1973 because I wanted to learn how to self-remember. Five years later I left when it finally became clear to me that if that was what I wanted, I was in the wrong place. Self-remembering was given plenty of lip service, of course (along with fun but useless stuff like body types, center of gravity, etc.) but the real focus of the school was on building up of the school (and the teacher) through the “impressions octave” and “third line work.” The friendships that are developed can make it difficult to leave. But once you have seen that you are living a lie is there any question about what needs to be done?
One needs to ask this: What kind of “friend” would refuse to have anything to do with you because you leave their group? This is cultism, pure and simple. Your real friends will want to keep in touch. If nobody does, then you have learned a valuable lesson: you didn’t have any friends. Deal with it. (voluntary suffering)
I knew without a doubt that I was leaving when Robert said at dinner one night: “Is it not amazing that in the entire world there are only 1100 people (the size of the school at that time) who wish to awaken?” Talk about delusional! The world is full of delusional people, but that doesn’t mean we need to support them.
I only learned that he was a sexual predator after I left. Had I known it sooner, I would have never stayed as long as I did.
Please don’t for one second be afraid that you will be “dead” or that you are “going to hell” (as one student who left was told by R in a letter). This kind of scare talk only further confirms that the group is a cult.
BTW, I have learned far more about self-remembering since leaving the FOF. Not bad for a “dead man.”
Mark
rawvegguy@yahoo.com
February 1, 2007 at 7:55 am
Fellowship of Friends it’s a destructive cult which literally destroys ones life.It steels your identity and replaces it with a false one which called “a true or work personality” which actually is a programme thru which you will be controlled and manipulated.In years to come you will be continuously giving all you have left including all your money,fate and health but what is worse is that you going to loose your dears and your loves ones.You will be stolen from them and they will be stolen from you.You will never forgive to your self that time of trust and hope for brighter future.You’ll suffer years alone with hate and pain unless you’ll find cure from it.
You may will die from cancer or go mad or stuck in deep depression like many students are in FOF.Or you may wake up and realized that all that was…was Hell and knowing that already Heaven..
February 1, 2007 at 8:51 am
http://www.theforbiddenknowledge.com/mindcontrol/
http://www.factnet.org/rancho1.htm
..sounds familiar??
February 1, 2007 at 9:27 am
Hello Cristina,
I understand your pain.
You have an independent mind which is a rarity these days.It is to valuable and precious to keep unguarded.
Regarding your friend I can tell you that in those years of being a student I saw many couples had failed apart and many tears been waisted.Unfortunately your friend does not hear you now and the more you’ll try to talk to him the more he will hate you for not supporting him in his fanaticism towards the “Teacher” If you really want to help him then let him go and live your life as your heart is telling you.
“We loosing only illusions on the Way”-was stating Ospensky,so if your connection with him is deep and real then you won’t loose it and on the contrary it’ll get much stronger later.
And if it wasn’t?..
Well..then what you’ve lost any way?
If he is willing so easily to replace you by some thing else then what place you’ve been taking in his life?
February 1, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Please everyone. Let’s have a sense of proportion.
I am a current member of the Fellowship. While I now question my participation and many of the decisions I have made over the years of my membership, I have to admit that I never gave away a fortune, renounced my parents, or sold my children to the slave-traders.
I, too, have seen some of the extreme and fanatic behavior discussed above, but by framing the discussion around these extremes, we have driven current members from the board. That’s a shame.
In the last few years, I have watched as the idea of “angles of thought” has disappeared — that is, the idea that we all have a point of view that, while subjective, contributes to the whole. What has replaced it increasingly is an emphasis on conformity, on the “right” opinion issued from above. Nonconformity in thoughts or behavior can be reported on, sometimes with consequences.
That has driven many substantive discussions underground, unfortunately. I was hoping this might be a place where we might share our opinions in a safe, anonymous way, rather than a place to vent or issue position statements expressing opinions that were cast in cement long ago.
February 2, 2007 at 12:07 am
Dear John,
What proportion can be found in madness? Common sense is possible between normal and honest people.
You probably need to do some serious research about what EXACTLY is happening behind the scenes of the FOF.
And what is your motive of your arguments? Are you trying to convince us that we are wrong in our views and opinions? Or you are trying to find out the TRUTH about it.
I’ll tell you one thing for sure.Do you know why the exercise “avoiding all contacts with former students” is so active verses some other exercises which far more heavy but less are punished for?
The answer is very simple Mr.John,because when one is leaving the school that usually means that he or she gets dehypnotized and they begin to see things as they are which is very dangerous to other members and to the whole system which you call a “school”.
And in regards to your statement:-“I never gave away a fortune or sold my children to the slave-traders”-I can tell you that you probably did not have any thing to give away because if you would have some thing to give you would not be able to “get away” without “giving it away” first.
And slavery? What full is thinks of him as full? What “machine” is thinks of it as a “machine”? What slave is thinks of him as slave? Will slave continue to be a slave? Unless he broke or stupid he will not”.And that’s what happening to most of us who left and keep on leaving.
A destructive cults (and FOF is one of them) has very fine and smarty hidden ways of squeezing you like a lemon and keeping you a slave and “sell” it back to you like is a fortune.They takes from you the “diamonds” and gives you back all plastic.And guess what helps them do that to you? Your fear and your fanaticism which works for them and are preventing you from seeing the Truth!.
February 2, 2007 at 5:19 am
I agree with John that it serves no useful purpose that current members are hesitant to post. If we have learned anything at all, it is that nothing is black and white. The format’s best use is for open discussion, removed of the heat of those cards we have all seen in ourselves and in others.
The strings around money and sex are certainly pulled in the Fellowship. I would expect that in any school. Though I had difficulty “getting my mind around” these areas of identification while in the Fellowship, they were not foremost in my decision to leave. More so was the culture of exclusivity that permeated the Fellowship. Robert, from the beginning, let it be known that there was no hope of awakening outside of the Fellowship, though many if not most of the 44 awakened without a school. There was a blanket assumption that there were no other individuals or groups alive today that had the keys to awakening. Robert mentioned no others and showed no curiousity on the subject. The fact that Robert showed no doubt about the Fellowship or his high status slowly drove me away from Robert emotionally. Eventually I lost trust and I knew that I had to leave. Even Christ doubted. There were a number of dinners when Robert would make one of his “exclusivity” remarks and I would hope that Robert would look over at me and wink. He never winked.
February 3, 2007 at 1:25 am
I don’t even know how to begin this. I lived in the Fellowship from age five or six to thirteen. The sweetest and most wonderful childhood memories are there, running around in the woods or going to the ballets or the operas. Culturally, it was amazing. I had the finest of educations and am well-versed in the classical arts.
Emotionally, I’m still devastated. To find out that the home of your childhood, the one place that set a standard for your environment is simply a facade for greed, power, and money is not easy thing to cope with. Having grown up there and spent almost all that time with the children, my main concern is the children.
These children, including myself, are never going to be fully adjusted to the real world. The ones that I know who left are all self-destructive and are trying to find some way of ever relating to the world again.
I’m not sure what my point is, but I thought I might as well comment. The Fellowship has granted me so much, but there’s no way they could ever make up for the emotional manipulation that the children and young adults end up having to put up with.
February 3, 2007 at 1:45 am
I appreciate this site as it has confirmed many of my thoughts and has verified what I have observed. Although my spritual background is very different from most who write and sometimes it is difficult to follow the trains of thought, certain things certainly ring true.
I have two family members who are living in the community and one is involved at apparantly high levels in the FoF and have been for over 20
years. While each of these relatives have had different experiences with FoF, they have to a greater (him) become very detached from our family. While it is sad to see we keep our opes that someday they will realize exactly what they have created for themselves.
Having been told on varoius occasions that my faith is “shallow” and that we do not understand, we have chosen not to be confrotative with these dear people and continue to look for opportunities to show by example a different way.
The willingness to rationalize some of the behavior of Robert and actions that the FoF takes ( ie settling lawsuits )just confirms what a strong grip that this “leader” has over the hearts and minds of a couple of otherwise very bright people.
Again, I appreciate the forum as it will help me to better understand much of what goes on inside the group.
February 3, 2007 at 3:05 am
What’s really important is to understand that real knowledge is FREE and there is no MONOPOLY over the conciseness.
Each and every one can BE if they want to be and KNOW if the want to know.
There is nothing to look for because is already here and there is nothing to find because we have it all already.There is no awakening “OUT THERE”,some where,but its here and it is now and we are awake already.
All we need to do is simply realizing it..
February 3, 2007 at 5:45 pm
The Fellowship does have a lot to offer. Inside the Fellowship the older students know very well that getting close to the teacher, which is the natural desire for most of the newer students, was equivalent to “getting close to the fire”. And it is common knowledge that if you get too close to the fire you might get burned. This is the logic that operates with most of the seasoned students. Getting close to Robert and not getting burned was really the test. Most of the students who have been there many years and are having success in their lives and aims have negotiated this difficult phase. It is accomplished in different ways and on different levels of understanding. One may argue that it is not really understanding but self-deception. I argue as a former member that no one but one self can know the difference (as psychologically tricky as this may sound). One should know ahead of time that the Fellowship, or the Fourth way for that matter, is a psychological minefield. We are free to choose or pick our own way.
February 4, 2007 at 12:27 am
The common “knowledge” of “getting burn when “getting close to fire” in my opinion is a complete nonsense.I’ve got very close to “REAL FIRE” and as result from this burning event I have not gone crazy,as some would think, but I simply woke up to the beauty and greatness of the whole Creation.
I would rather say then when you getting close to madness then most likely you’ll go mad your self and truly then you’ll burn to ashes.
February 4, 2007 at 1:35 am
I just went thru Mark’s and X’s letters and I want to say that whoever you guys are I fully agree and support each and every word you wrote above.The Truth is striking! Isn’t it?
February 4, 2007 at 7:22 am
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasBob/
http://www.freedomofmind.com/resourcecenter/groups/f/fellowship/
http://www.rickross.com/groups/fof.html
February 6, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Perhaps it speaks poorly (yet again) of this Fellowship of Fiends, that so many of those touched by it remain self-pitying whiners even years after-the-fact. Embittered victims, the angry dwarfs of contemporary spirituality.
Look, I can be as disconcerted as anyone by the reported egregious behavior and excesses of their leader. And also by what appears, from the numerous accounts given (or linked to) here, to be a spiritual community rife with manipulation and delusory thinking. But I am also suspicious of such remarks as “these people ruined my life”; and suspicious of an underlying sentiment that I notice in a number of postings-by-the-injured (and by their instantly eager cheer-leaders).
First of all, was your life really ruined? Frankly, that reeks of exaggeration and narcissistic victim-hood. And, if the claim is even partially true — say, to the extent that you suffered financial or emotional hardship and lost valuable time — was it really this evil organization that ‘did’ those things to innocent, passive, helpless, wholesome you? I suspect the reality is far more complex. And far more interesting, too.
I am acquainted with Fourth Way literature, and will share a perception I always appreciated (from Ouspensky’s writings): “Blame is a buffer.” Didn’t you FOF-fers (former and current) ever delve into that one? Of course, Ouspensky’s observation would also apply to any tendency to ‘blame the victim,’ a policy I am by no means advocating. But all sides need to be seen.
Just for instance, what was it in YOU that made for your initial attraction to the organization, and (in some cases) your deep immersion in its worldview and psychology? Of course, the answer to that question will be many-layered, and different for each person. But it must be asked, gone into deeply, with answers fully owned up to.
Oh, excuse me, that has already been addressed on this blog, and in considerable detail, right? Let me recap (variation No. 4, on a theme for violino piccolo):
“The F.O.F. held out a promise of good things and got my hopes up, kind of seduced and hypnotized me for a while, ultimately disappointed me, but left me very dependent and fearful of leaving, which I finally did manage to do when I got totally disgusted and couldn’t stand it anymore.”
Sounds like a love affair. A lot like a love affair, maybe followed by marriage and divorce. In line with that comparison, I feel it is just too damn easy (read: mechanical) to take sides with the party who is doing all the talking, recounting the abuses, in the absence of the other voices and points of view that are surely out there.
I find it interesting that, now and again in the unfolding of this blog, a rare attempt, or hint thereof, has been made to open things up to a more multi-sided discussion. To wit, the recent posts 37, 39, and 43. These were promptly and aggressively stomped on by a particularly strident contributor, with much contempt and a bizarre kind of pontificating arrogance, in multiple postings.
So, Burton and Burtonians, where are you?! Why do you not speak? Better yet, you ambivalent ones from the land of F.O.F., weighing truth and falsehood for yourselves on the unusual path you have chosen. I’d like to hear more of what you have to say, preferably in an atmosphere of passionate (and compassionate) neutrality all around.
-BBB
February 7, 2007 at 4:59 am
Okay, Bedouin. I’ll have a go, although you’ve already heard my voice.
The “task” (or is it “exercise”?) not to talk to former students was not some perfidious invention of Robert Burton’s. In fact, it goes back to the days of Gurdjieff, long before Robert Burton was even born.
The intent of the exercise was manifold. It was to provide a clean break for the departing student, and a clean reentry should he or she wish to rejoin. It was to ensure that the Fourth Way environment consisted only of those who wanted to work with these principles, and not allowed to become diluted by the uncommitted. So, in a sense, it was to keep the experiment “pure.” And it did.
And yet… and yet… over time, it did have the side-effect – or was it the main effect??? – described above. It isolated us from healthy dissent, and from questions we needed to ask ourselves. Former students were defamed and demonized. But this conclusion throws an unexpected light not only on Robert Burton, but on Gurdjieff and the Fourth Way itself. Whoops! We don’t talk about Gurdjieff anymore… nor the Fourth Way in any specifics. Well, that raises other questions.
To keep the Fellowship experiment “pure” … the experiment. We have at times been encouraged to use scientific language, thinking of this as an “experiment.” But part of the nature of an experiment is an occasional, honest, open-minded review of the data. Is the experiment a success? It is impossible to ask this question within the Fellowship, because it is assumed only the brain-dead among us cannot smell the glorious triumph. But of what does this triumph consist? The data gets buried in a deep hole. Way back in the 70s, there was constant talk of Robert’s prediction that the Fellowship would produce seven “conscious beings” within our lifetimes. Thirty years have rolled by and, as posted earlier on this thread, not one has emerged. Not one. The failures and evacuees are swept under the carpet, the prophecies forgotten, a new hero touted to replace the disappointments and outdated illusions, and our attention quickly distracted with new oracles, new toys, new magic carpets. Similarly, the prediction of calamitous events. I, for one, was not terribly interested in these, nor put much stock in them – many of us didn’t, you know – but doesn’t it matter that they were pontificated, and failed to occur?
Words and meaning part company, under such circumstances. It would be beneficial to discuss all this without having to hide in corners with trusted friends who have been vetted for their discretion. One only gets predictable points of view that way. The official party line seems to be that none of this matters — only “states” matter.
February 7, 2007 at 5:12 am
Dear BBBB,
Your judgment can not be taken into consideration because you never was a part of the FOF and therefor you can not judge objectively about it.Why don’t you join the group first and then we’ll talk again one year later.
Every body can be a smart ass sitting in front of the screen and shooting out “opinions” such or an others.But only those who has been a part of the group has actually the right to talk about it.
“And blame no one but your self” is actually a misleading concept which brings more harm than use to one self.It is a wonderful tool to control the mind and it’s commonly used in cults but it does not work on those who suffered theirs way out.
February 7, 2007 at 9:44 am
Hello all,
To clear the tables, I am currently a member of the FOF, and have been for 20+ years.
To my understanding, the FOF exists an an environment to be used in order to transform one’s own life and no one else’s. If one stays focussed on that effort, then there is more than enough energy provided to do that.
But life on this level (what we call the second state), being what it is, means that over time, one can become comfortable or forgetful or lazy or whatever and stop using it. If the external School requirements and activities then become more active than one’s own internal use of them, strangely enough, the School can turn into it’s opposite. Rather than an environment created for experiencing inner states of freedom, it becomes an external prison.
Obviously, it is not a black and white picture, thus each student may experience the whole spectrum of effort or lack of it and states or lack of them over time. “You pay your money and you take your chances”. BTW: A number of friends who have died in recent years did not leave the School (finding it empty and the Teacher a charlatan) upon discovering their terminal diagnosis, rather each one in his or her own way used the time remaining to them to transform their life into hydrogens that can survive the death of the physical body. Those students who have been near to such experiences know better what was gained, but the student who has died knows best of all, and cannot enter discussions on the internet. Amen.
(thus, I have given this my best shot, let the Critics commence)
February 7, 2007 at 6:34 pm
“People wish to be cheated”-sad Mr.Gurdjiev and FOFers are really good at justifying madness.
February 7, 2007 at 7:26 pm
These are references for Russian-speaking students on a theme of your site –
http://fofway.narod.ru/
From former students
Present –
http://fofway.narod.ru/page8.htm
The points of view –
http://www.narod.ru/guestbook/index.xhtml?owner=3210512&sent=1
February 8, 2007 at 7:42 am
Whether the FOF is good, bad, or in between, one can look at the matter this way: Even a villain has a right to a fair trial, otherwise the system is defective and the innocent will be taken down, sooner or later. Thus, all the relevant testimonies must be heard, with discrimination but without prejudice. And, courtroom metaphors aside, it would just make for a more interesting, potentially enlightening discussion to invite the full spectrum of opinions and experiences. A healthy plurality of voices would include FOF members both former and current, dissatisfied and otherwise, and anyone else who cares enough about the topic to follow the thread and share their observations. It is not just a rant-room for the angry, not just a verbal photo-op for self-styled anticultist crusaders and conspiracy-cranksters who would like to prejudge the matter for everyone else. No, thank you, I will hear the voices, listen to the tone, check the facts as responsibly as I can, and then either form an opinion, or refrain from opinion as I see fit.
And X-manLS, nowhere in my post did I recommend “blaming yourself.” A key point, about which I could not have been more explicit, was to get beyond the psychology of blame altogether — because it is a ‘buffer’ which tends to obscure the big-picture, as well as a potentially crippling negative emotion which makes it more difficult to move on.
-BBB
February 8, 2007 at 8:24 am
I live in Isis for 17 years and to say the truth first 13 it felt like I am going some where,moving forward learning and evolving.But in the last few years of Roberts teaching I have found my self in deep confusion and literally lost.I don’t know what to think any more.My buffers like “this is just his machine” and a concise being can afford him self pretty much any thing because he is no longer a human” does not work any more.And to tell you the truth if what I see in him is call “awakening” that I seriously doubting my desire to awaken.I am grateful for this website where people like me can share they thought in a discreet way.In Fellowship we are not allowed to discuss any thing like that.Those discussions are called “gossips” and “expressing negativity towards the school and Teacher” for which one can be punished in numerous ways.
For a long time now I was thinking about leaving the school but I was afraid that Robert will find the way to harm me later.I know that many current student in Isis are visiting this website regularly but still are afraid to leave a comments.My friend had emailed me this link and sad that this site had shocked him at first but later on he found that what he was reading about in those letters was for a long his own experience which he could not accept or even look upon.And now after 26 years in the school he is with “one leg out” as he briefly mentioned in his last later.I don’t know where that will lead me but certainly its usefully now.Thank you!
February 8, 2007 at 6:41 pm
FYI: Many students in the Fellowship are from other countries. It is probably safe to say that more than half the membership are not native English speakers. It is much more of an effort for these non native speakers to write posts.
February 8, 2007 at 9:46 pm
Ellen,
Often when one raises uncomfortable questions, the subject of Our Sainted Dead is brought in as a silencer, although I know you did not mean it that way. I know some of those deaths were whitewashed hagiographies, heavily marketed for promotional purposes. Anyway, with the tsunami of positive attention people receive when on their deathbeds, including phone calls from the usually inaccessible leader, last-minute changes-of-heart become improbable.
But only sanctified deaths count. There were other deaths, not spoken of … a few months ago, a man who was on a «leave of absence », and purportedly a former lover of the leader’s, killed himself. Rumor has it that he tried to call the leader in the days before he died, and his phone calls were refused. He, too, was a fellow traveller along the Fellowship road. He was someone we were encouraged to love and care for as an « ascending soul ». Yet his death was unannounced, and unmourned. Those of us who know about it heard it on the much-disparaged grapevine, which is not always reliable. To ask questions is usually considered « gossip » and brands one as a busybody.
Or the quadriplegic who purportedly bet too heavily on the 1998 earthquake prediction, lost his job and medical benefits, and also killed himself. Despite long service, his death was not announced or mourned. We have all kinds of ways to buffer these occasions. These are casualties on the road to awakening, « descending souls ». Mental illness is usually a factor in such breakdowns and deaths, certainly, but our role in creating the pressure that broke them or our way of working with such cases falls under a blanket of silence. Often we say it was going to happen anyway, sooner or later, with or without us. Maybe true.
Don’t these deaths matter, too ? Who thinks of them ? I do, sometimes.
February 8, 2007 at 9:50 pm
Yesterday Angela and I left the Fellowship. I received a call from
Linda Tulisso asking if we had been to see a Zen teacher in the Bay
Area. I said we had. She said that Robert considers this a
“B-influence virus” and that I had to make a choice between Robert and
the Zen teacher. I said that I chose the Zen teacher. And that was
that!
Why did I make that choice? Simply, because I want to wake up.
The background:
For the last few years I”ve felt I was getting nowhere in my efforts
to awaken. Initially the FoF was helpful in providing a framework for
learning more about “the machine”, achieving “higher states”, etc. But
Robert tells us that if we”re really lucky this might be our eighth
lifetime and we might wake up next lifetime – not a concept I find
very inspiring! So I started to look around outside the FoF, thinking
that if I did find something better that would be great and if I
didn”t I would resign myself to the pleasant life at Isis and to the
form of relative awakening that is prevalent here (being “in essence”
and sometimes having “higher states”).
Angela and I started to read books about Advaita Buddhism. It”s a
wonderful, simple, practical teaching. There are a number of Advaita
teachers in California who give every indication of being at a high
level of consciousness. About a month ago we went to Oakland to see
Adyashanti, one of the leading teachers. It was a total revelation.
Here was a young man, obviously at a very high level of consciousness,
explaining simply and clearly how to get there no complications or
strange additions, a clear and pure energy, lovely sense of humour,
completely open to any person asking any kind of question. The fee for
the two hour meeting was a suggested donation of $10. Last weekend we
went with a number of students to an “intensive”, spending the whole
weekend with Adyashanti. The effect was extraordinary so many
revelations for all of us.
The small group of friends who are undertaking this voyage are seeing
quick and wonderful results it really seems like it is possible to
wake up, in fact the process has already begun ..
One strand of what is happening is that old concepts are dropping
away. We”re asked to look into ourselves and see what we really are.
The answer is “nothing”. The awakened state is beyond all concepts.
This includes concepts like “being present”, “not expressing negative
emotions”, etc. One sees that in fact these concepts keep one asleep.
Efforts to awaken take one further away from awakening, because they
are made by the small self, which actually doesn”t exist. This
includes the steward. That”s why making efforts to be present produces
only temporary, impermanent states.
Robert”s teaching contains a number of fundamental errors, which is
why after 26 years of sincere efforts I haven”t really achieved much!
Nor has anyone else, at least as far as I can see!!
There are many descriptions in Indian spiritual literature about the
different possibilities for what can occur after an experience of
illumination. In many cases it takes a while for the machine to catch
up with the experience. There is a period of integration where the
machine”s habits become integrated and purified by the spiritual
experience. When this happens correctly a figure like Adyashanti
appears simple, clear, clean, pure, unafraid, non-grasping, humble.
But in some cases the lower parts of the machine win the battle. The
result is a person who has some residual spiritual energy but who is
increasingly consumed by greed, vanity and power, often in the form of
sexual obsession, financial greed, exaggerated claims (“I”m higher
than Jesus”), strange prophecies, etc. Sound familiar?
So it”s not surprising that Robert views Advaita Buddhism as a
“B-influence virus”. The emperor has no clothes. He probably realizes
that he is unable to do much to help people to awaken, but he wants to
retain his lifestyle with all its creature comforts and adulation, so
it”s very dangerous for him when someone sees through him. The virus
could easily spread, so those people have to be removed immediately.
It was odd going up to Apollo d”Oro recently and seeing how hypnotized
people are minds closed to any other possibilities than what Robert
tells them. I was in that situation myself for 26 years, which seems
extraordinary now that I can see the FoF more clearly. Perhaps the
FoF can still have beneficial results for its students despite Robert
being a bit of a fraud, at least at the beginning, but devoting one”s
whole life to it seems to me to be a mistake, assuming one wants to
awaken.
So, a new beginning for me. I hope our friendship can transcend the
mad FoF rule about ex-students!
love, Charles
February 9, 2007 at 12:30 am
What’s bothering John was described well by Ouspensky: “And every time they speak about something they do not know AS THOUGH THEY KNEW IT, THEY LIE.” (italics belong to Ouspensky)
February 9, 2007 at 5:43 am
Dear CURRENT STUDENT FROM ASIS,
I appreciate your sincerity and your courage to look withing your self.Al duo the fear is natural and there is nothing wrong with “been afraid” unless you letting your fear to control you and he prevents you from actions.ABSENCE OF FEAR IS MORE LIKELY A FOOLISHNESS BUT COURAGE IS AN ABILITY TO MOVE THRU FEAR WHILE YOU AFRAID.
I GUARANTEE YOU WITH 100% that Robert HAS NO POWER!!! ALL HIS POWER IS LIMITED BY HIS SPHERE OF INFLUENCE WHICH IS A FOF.THE MOMENT YOU WILL LEAVE THE FOF HIS WILL LOOSE ALL POWER OVER YOU.THAT IS WHY THE EXERCISE “AVOIDING ALL CONTACTS WITH FORMER STUDENTS” IS SO ACTIVE AND DANGEROUS TO BREAK.ONLY CURRENT MEMBERS ARE SUBJECT TO HIS REVENGE.THE ONLY “PUNISHING TOOLS” HE HAS ARE “EXERCISE” OF DIFFERENT KIND AND FINES.WHAT EXERCISE COULD BURTON GIVE YOU WHEN YOU’LL LEAVE??? WHAT FINES HE COULD CHARGE YOU WITH? SO IF YOU WANT TO LEAVE AND JUST AFRAID OF HIM THEN DON’T.JUST MAKE THE MOVE AND TRUST ME NOTHING BAD WILL HAPPEN TO YOU! YOU WILL FIND MORE AND MORE PEACE AND HAPPINESS WITH IN YOUR SELF BY REMOVING THOSE WALLS OF FEAR.
ROBERT BURTON IS A PAPER TIGER BUT REAL ENOUGH TO BITE WHEN YOU ARE STILL A MEMBER.
February 9, 2007 at 5:55 am
When I recently got kicked out as a part of a “B-influence virus”, I wrote this “good bye” letter and sent it to some friends. Someone suggested that I post it here.
These are the facts, as close as I could remember. Draw your own conclusions. Open your eyes and ears.
And please do yourself a favor and do go see John Wheeler and Adyashanti. As it’s been said: “Hey, you never know!” Miracles DO happen. Give it a try.
What happened (just in case you would like to know) is that about 2 months ago I was reading a text on a website, something called “pointers” by a guy called John Wheeler. (www.thenaturalstate.org).
In a way it was nothing new, all the stuff we, students, “know”. And somehow suddenly it very clearly occurred to me that the “person” I took myself to be all my life – was not real. It was a striking understanding, dawning experience, an actual seeing that there is truly no “me” in the present moment, that this “person” and all it’s past story – is a mental image, mind construction, imagination! There was no “me” to be found in the present… Not now, not ever. It was almost scary, yet – truly observable in the moment. “I” never lived, never was, she is a picture, a story, she exists in the mind only… And what is ever here, truly watching this – is silent consciousness behind the eyes…With no face, no age, no story, no borders and no opinion… It was actually truly seen, for the first time in my life.
And then things changed. At first I haven’t noticed much except for a strange new sense of ease or relaxation. And then in about a week to my amazement I realized that all judgment was gone, all negativity and even small irritations were gone by itself, boredom and impatience was gone, insecurity, fear and imagination about the future was gone… Something truly changed, with the disappearance of a sense of “me” a lot of selfish negative stuff was just simply gone…Usual things were happening, but without a personal vulnerable feeling inside, as if they were happening not to “me”.
What was left – was clear, impersonal, bright sense of now, of effortlessly being where you are, very engaging, colorful, flavorful, almost childish, playful and kind of loving, compassionate sense of being. Life is seen as a wonderful movie or a play, full of beauty and fun.
This deep joyful sense of being has not ever disappeared or stopped for a minute. For 2 months now. It’s not really a “state” happening to a “me” – which comes and goes as we all know. It’s rather a radical shift in identity. I am not this little imaginary person full of problems and suffering, as was taken for granted and believed for so long – I am actually this big presence, this seeing, this knowing, awareness looking through the eyes… The little character is watched and lived by it…
Certainly, I wanted to share this beautiful realization with my dear students-friends, since it was the most amazing thing ever happen. I was excited to share, since the understanding was so simple and possible! I wrote some letters, describing the experience, not comparing it to anything in the School and not going against anything. During recent visit to Isis I shared this positive experience with some of my friends, and had a great time re-discovering all the beauty around me, and not feeling any judgment to anyone or anything. Old accounts seem to have mysteriously disappeared.
But some friends somehow got either upset or offended by this sharing, took it very personally and defensively and secretly reported to the Council.
Kevin then called me and asked a number of strange questions, such as why am I actively going against Robert, why am I scheduling dinners with friends on meeting nights, etc. – all not true and largely distorted. I didn’t feel much negativity against Robert or anyone, wasn’t comparing or provoking, and certainly was not trying to battle anything – so I told Kevin about my real experience, and he thought at the moment that it was interesting and true. He said that he needs to think about it and will call back.
Next day he called and said that they decided with Girard that this approach is naive and not right, because it doesn’t fight the Adversary, the devil, lower self. He asked if I see the Adversary. I said that I truly don’t. (May be Gourdjief was right when he said that there is no conscious evil. May be it Adversary is given existence through the mind. Is lower self REAL? Is “me”, or machine real? Are the I’s real? So why even bother to battle the unreal… -but I didn’t say any of this in our talk, these are just present thoughts happening now).
Kevin then asked if I practice the Sequence. I honestly answered that there seem to be no need anymore, since there seem to be no problem to be where I am and simply enjoy the beautiful presence…
He said I should choose methods of work on myself. I again said very politely that there are no methods used anymore, because there seem to be no need to use methods… No negativity to battle, no identification. There was just simply being where I am, kind of effortlessly… I don’t know why. I said – Kevin, isn’t our mutual aim to be present to our lives? To be free of negativity and judgment? Why are all these questions? Aren’t we together in this? Isn’t that is why we joined the School?
He said – May be it is an aim for an individual. But as a School it’s different. We have to follow the methods given to us by the Teacher and do what he says – use Sequence and fight the Adversary.
He asked me then to choose my Teacher. I was surprised and asked – between whom and whom do you want me to choose? I am not following any additional teachers. (Does reading a text means betrayal? This is a little too controlling…)
I also said that it appears that the very belief in “person” and “choices” is gone, things just happen in a play, and consciousness is aware of it. I said that if he wants a choice to be made, why don’t he then chose for me, to the best of everybody.
He replied then that they have already chosen and decided for me, and the decision is that I should leave the School. He noted that since I haven’t actually done anything wrong, am not negative but on the contrary seem to be very positive, and also haven’t committed any crime against the School – they may review it all in few months and may be consider taking me back.
I certainly accepted this decision, although it seem a bit contradictory, since there was no clear reason stated, but it is what it is, and here we are!
Our life is so full of contradictions, which makes it a truly great movie!
The most amazing contradiction is that the very “person” who wants to wake up – is not real. We take ourselves to be a wrong thing, a mental image. And what is real – is always awake, and always been, quietly watching the play through our eyes.
I wish you too discover this, wish it from the bottom of my heart!
Don’t trust ANYONE (myself included) – trust your heart only. Too many confused lying people around… Some even teach! Trust your heart. See the truth of who you are for yourself.
Please stay in touch if you wish,
Warm hug to all
February 9, 2007 at 6:20 am
Dear Ellen,
Aren’t those suicides are warnings? That student needed help from his Teacher to whom he trusted his life.And his Teacher had simply ignored him like he always does to any one who does not bring him money.It well could be that the reason for that suicide was based on realization of the Truth about his Teacher.We don’t know that and we can only guess.
But we DO KNOW HIS ABUSIVE NATURE AND HIS GREED WHICH IS AN EXPRESSION OF HIS FEAR.The slavery in Isis is ridicules.People get ill and die very often in Fellowship.I know personally many students and older students are as well which constantly taking antidepressants.These are the facts that can be found fast and easy.
It is naive to thing that Higher Forces are behind it.The only one who is behind that is Burton.He is behind every thing in FOF.
Do you remember that big scandal two years ago when he closer students and his right hand has forcing married womans in Isis to have sex with them for vouchers? And what were justice action taken??? One week of been away from Galleria??? And after that he brought them back like nothing happened? Where do you thing the “fish is stinks” from?
If Robert would be honest man his action would be others.Or do you think that this is just another expression of his Conciseness?
February 9, 2007 at 6:30 am
How about the no laughing exercise? and the no gesticulating? and the no wit? and the no showing your teeth when you smile? and on and on and on. JUST LEAVE AND FEEL THE JOY OF LIVING. Honestly, you won’t go to the moon and if you do the best party is going to be there anyway. All “ex-students are invited”!!
February 9, 2007 at 8:41 am
… and guess what? The party is at my house, this coming spring. As my dear friend Moonfood said, only touching life with all your being, (living the peace, the joy that is you), will reveil you your very nature.
You are love. You are truth. You are awakening. You are your own “Guru” within. You don’t need to be enslaved and mind-controlled to awaken (what an oxymoron!)
Robert Burton said once “Fear is a form of laziness”. What a great insight(he got this one right), because laziness, and I would add ignorance, prevents people from expanding their knowledge and opening up to Truth. Anything and anybody in this world can show you Truth. One just has to be willing to see it. It’s there for the taking.
Another good one that Robert taught me was “Be true to yourself and your life will take care of itself”. It took me awhile (20 years), but finally sank in. Hey, better late than never. My loving message to you is that it’s ok to leave, even after 30 years. You just have to be willing to be true, and I mean TRUE, to yourself, and a big veil will dissolve before your eyes. Believe me: Your life will take care of itself in all areas.
You are more than somebody who’s depending on a community, friends, your only family for many years. You think that it’s all you have, but that is a misperception. There is so much in life for the taking (and the giving)… people, love, the whole world. And if you’re in the business of awakening, to leave the FOF is among one of the fundamental steps you need to take to grow. That is because this whole organization is built on a lie, altough a pretty one, still a lie. And it’s part of becaming a mature and spiritually advanced humang being to pursue truth. It takes courage to pursue truth, and can only be found within. I know for certain that you got it.
You’re graduating…don’t you see?
Congratulations!
Remember the party… in Spring…
With love and compassion
February 9, 2007 at 8:48 am
Mind-controlling sects are criminal and evil phenomena,a heartless game destroying lifes..
February 9, 2007 at 6:20 pm
I do agree with every word of Flypaper.
Its also my expiriance and understanding.
February 9, 2007 at 7:06 pm
Hi All:
Disclaimer: I am a member of the Fellowship.
For all 4th Way afficionados, consider this: The very title of Ouspensky’s 4th Way includes “Fragments of an Unknown Teaching”. He emphasized that what he was presenting was incomplete — we (and I include myself in this group) have always assumed that the fragments we have are all the important ones.
But is there any conclusive proof of that? After 10, 20, 30 years, has it worked? Have I “woken up” (whatever that means)? Has anyone else I know?
I haven’t asked these kinds of questions before, and I am inclined to now. It also appears that many others (both within and without the Fellowship) are, too. All of that is a good thing.
February 9, 2007 at 8:02 pm
A few remarks to recent contributors:
John, I feel honesty and seriousness in your words (post #48 and before), the weight of what is at stake for you in what you see happening around you in the F.O.F., and the earnestness of your Work. Critical-thinking is clearly alive and well in you, as is authenticity and a deep humanity.
To Ellen, thank you, for taking the trouble, and in a way, the risk, to express your point of view in this environment. I had the image of a nice, well-dressed lady walking into an increasingly rowdy bar-room. So, you are a unique and highly interesting ‘pro-FOF’ exception on this blog. Of course, there is much you leave unaddressed; but taken on its own terms, your post had the ring of sincerity and thoughtfulness. You are not shooting from the hip, or lower. And frankly, regardless of how I might ultimately feel about your school, its leader, or your approach to the Work, you, like John, seem a person I would like to know, with whom a rich and substantial conversation could take place. We might actually get somewhere, not in spite of, but partly because of our diversity of opinion.
X-ManLS, I would also like to thank you, mostly for reminding me of the comic side of things. You see, for all your daily (sometimes hourly) shriekings about the horror and tragedy that is the FOF, you are really very funny. One of many amusing details in your postings is your very consistent misspelling of the words ‘conscious’ and ‘consciousness,’ which you write, respectively, as ‘concise’ and ‘conciseness.’ Every time I see this, I nearly fall out of my chair laughing. It’s so perfect in its accidental irony. You see, ‘concise’ actually is an English word, meaning, ‘of very few words, extremely direct and to the point.’ In the recent deluge of words this blog is having, it brings me back to the very helpful realization that, truly, if consciousness is anything, it is not all this talk. So maybe, in this one detail, YOU are unwittingly the voice of Ouspensky’s “C-Influence”, creeping cleverly and inconspicuously onto the blog.
But wait, there is even more humor to this. You see, in post #54, written by “Current student from Isis,” there is precisely this same misspelling. No wonder you had such heartfelt sympathy for him in your reply, post #59, where you scream in capital letters your urgent advice to this poor, deluded sufferer — for you are talking to yourself! Man, oh man. What a cocktail of tramp-lunatic and dishonesty you bring to this blog. Whatever illness the FOF may be suffering from, I have to wonder whether you may have been (or still are), one of the symptoms. Like little bubo, or skin sore, loudly complaining about how sick with plague the host is.
That said, I am very interested in the lengthy new contributions, #57 and #60, from the two departing members, both of which strike me as substantial and serious, injecting some new material and specific detail into the conversation. Thanks to you both.
-BBB
February 9, 2007 at 8:19 pm
well! i was in fof in carmel during time stella wirk lived there. i went to a intro meeting and immediately became conscious during the meeting. the 3rd state. the fof did not make me conscious. the meeting was a “safe” place for even to happen. things were less robotic then. seekers from tassahara zen types, etc came to the meetings. meeting were much like cities in the silk road area. a mix mohameddin, buddhists, zoastrians etc mixing metaphors as incense rising. that was my womb. whether or not mr burten is or is not doesnt seem relevant now. i joined fof after that meeting. i then discovered rodney collins books, theory eternal life, theory celestial influence. and goethes theory colors. managing to create a new color enneagram. and started sun gazing. paraphrasing Collins ” the sun is door to the 4th dimension” the sun gazing later time gave rise to awakening in my earlier chronological time. fof was stable envirnment for awakening. i had few mystical experiences ghost mr burton in skyline meeting hall. other mysterious events i cant speak of . fof continually refuses recognize my awakening or acknowledge my contribution to the enneagram. a vessal like fof may hold water but vessal doesnt drink what it contains. natasha matins
February 10, 2007 at 7:47 am
BBBBB,
I do not afraid to look funny,comic or ignorant because all of those characteristics are related to my tools (futures,center of gravity,body type,social background,personal history…).
You looking at “how” I am expressing my self instead of “what” am I trying to say.You see,5 years ago I’ve joined the FOF in Milan,and only the last 3 years I am living in US.So my English is not so bad for 3 years in the new country.I doubt that your Italian would be any better for that time.
I can think of only two option: either you are a student and hiding behind the mask of the “outsider” for not been accidentally hurt or you are truly “outsider”.
The first option is understandable.The current members are truly fearful and are prefer to express their opinions in a hidden manner.(Truly Fellowship style).
The second position is reflecting some future of your psychological appearance.”Why would a none member or “outsider” be so actively participating in our discussions about the FOF”??? Any student or former student will agree that the “outsider” does not have enough material for serious discussion of this mater.And even more to it,to judge an unknown people with theirs unknown liefs.What I can see is you are trying to demonstrate your excellence in emotional and intellectual sphere (your dispassionate attitudes,your “soberness” a “bigger scale” and your “sarcastic none-identification).
In your behavior I can see all signs of an ESOTERIC SCOUNDREL who trying to built his own reputation on pain of other people and who uses an esoteric terminology for that reason.
And you know what BBBB…?Fuck you!
February 10, 2007 at 1:09 pm
My feeling here is that we are seeing the limitations of such a format as this. We all have to gain what we can from our experiences whether they be good,bad or neutral. For myself I have to turn to poetry to keep sane much of the time…. I have just reread one of my favorite poems of Walt Whitman: “I sit and look out” I am sure that each one of us could ad a verse to this poem… and Whitman, if he were alive, would probably nod in agreement.
February 10, 2007 at 2:42 pm
X-Man Low Self: Two things. First, there is no need to use that language, calm down. Second, you really don’t have to comment twice a day on things that do not need to be commented upon. I am very happy to listen to what everyone has to say, but there are limits to how much rubbish I’ll let you post here. I am not persecuting you for your bad English, hell, I am a foreigner myself. But you know, try spend your free time more productively.
February 10, 2007 at 8:14 pm
I was a member of the Fellowship of Friends (FOF) for 12 years, though that was over 12 years ago. Yet it has only been in the last year or so that I now feel free to speak about my experience(s).
I joined when I was a full blooded, testosterone active youth of 20 years old.
My first two years were spent in a centre – a FOF outpost, where students lived together, or met up to discuss and practice the “Work”. These were times of joyful optimism, there was a sense of purpose and challenge, as I religiously read the required books and diligently performed the set exercises; all the time knowing that my attempt at Self-Remembering would produce the required results in no time at all… The only disappointment I felt was that I was stuck in this outpost of a centre. Where I really wanted to be was at the heart, where it all happened – close to the Teacher!
This desire was given extra impetus after the Teacher swept through the centre with his train of acolytes, as part of one of his exotic journeys which he was very keen on taking and of which I would partake, several years down the road. I followed everyone’s lead and bowed down in awe and made up my mind that I would up roots and move to Renaissance, as it was then called.
Indeed within a twinkling of an eye, I was soon laboring beneath a brilliant sun, building by day and burning by night! The days were long an tiring, the work hard, but the evenings were special: plenty of company, good food, lots to drink and an incredible star studded, night sky full of promise.
It wasn’t long before I got my first invitation to dine at the honored top table and soon began to feed on the attention I was being given by the Teacher. As the omnipotent, all seeing, conscious being he claimed to be, I naturally assumed everyone was the beneficiary of such cosmic affection.
So it came as a surprise when he invited me to join him on his next world tour. By this time my ego was up, I felt confident, I was definitely going somewhere. Of course I paid scant warning to the occasional asides I would receive advising me to be careful. Careful? What do I need to be careful about? I have sanctuary beneath the wings of grace.
The world tour went off without a hitch. It had it’s moments of course. Traveling with a small band of young men for eight weeks is not without it’s flash points. I for one would have certainly appreciated a bit more female company – and I don’t mean for the reasons you might be thinking. I just feel more relaxed in more balanced environment.
Anyway, after those eight weeks of high living, it was back to the vineyard by day and the wine by night. And it was probably as a result of the latter that I soon found myself proposing to a woman who I had been eyeing for awhile and had felt attracted to and which I felt was reciprocated. I suppose in a normal situation we would have simply had an affair, found out if everything worked and if we were really suited for each other. Only then made a decision about long term commitments. However, the rules stated no pre-marital sex and as I was observing the rules as this stage, there was little option; especially as there was something about this place which seemed to have the effect of boosting the sexual energy. Like the libido running on rocket fuel.
Of course marriage meant that my frequent invitations from the Teacher became less frequent. But then he had never been an open advocate of male female coupling in any form, I think he viewed it as one of the many “unnecessary necessities” that occur between the opposite sexes, children being the another. Actually I now believe women themselves fell into that category, unless they were old enough to be his mother and then he treated them like queens!
Anyway true to form I had child, after which life in the FOF became quite run of the mill, if ever it can be. Unfortunately, the marriage was not fated to last. Partly due to the artificial circumstances surrounding it’s conception, as it became evident we were not suited to each other and the child had only delayed the inevitable. Also there felt like an immense external pressure, largely due I’m sure to the active singles scene. After a long day in the field, it was sometimes too much to resist, for in spite of the rules, it was evident that students were hitting the hay left, right and centre. This was only further fuelled by a steady stream of younger, more liberally minded students making their pilgrimages from Europe and beyond.
So it was more or less back to square one. Well almost. I was now single again, eligible and yes, back on the high table!
You may be wondering what had happened to the “Work” within my life. Well I was still doing it – at least I was going to meetings, following the exercises, paying my way – if not financially, with the sweat of my brow, by working the land. But to be quite honest my main memories of this period was that I was the member of an exclusive social club, complete with all the allurements a youth in his mid-twenties could wish for.
I even fell in love again and this time decided to try out the relationship first, though I knew it involved tasting of “forbidden” fruits and liable to a hefty fine or worse. But the passionate union which followed, with its depths of intense feeling and emotion which two people encounter when trying to experience the moment, within the moment which the act of making love demands, seemed to justify my decision and still makes me shudder to this day. The only response I recall at the time was: this can’t be wrong – give me more!
In fact my wish was duly granted for it was at this point that things took a turn – not necessarily for the worse in the beginning, but certainly in another direction.
The most memorable moment occurred after one of the Teacher’s so called Symposiums, this was the name of the all male dinners he was in the habit of hosting each weekend. Indeed true to their title they mainly amounted to little more than drinking parties, taking more of the form of a Bacchanalia without the accompanying Maenads – though I was soon to discover there a sting in the tail.
After dinner it was the custom of the Teacher to retire while the rest of the young men hung around and chatted. I think I was trying to recall how much Cognac I had consumed, when the Teacher’s man servant came and whispered in my ear that the Teacher would like to speak to me. So I slipped out of the room, making my way along the hall to his study, where I knocked on his door.
When I entered he looked a little surprised, but then invited me to sit down on the couch next to him. This was all very cozy I thought. I began to wonder what words of wisdom he might impart, as I definitely felt in the mood for something insightful. So you can imagine my surprise when he reached over and started to undo my trousers. If fact, I was so taken back that I must have slipped into a kind of reverie, for the next thing I was aware of was the Teacher’s head between my legs performing fellatio.
Strangely enough I did not resist, which would have been the obvious reaction, as I had always considered myself very straight, finding the whole gay scene somewhat distasteful – at least not up my particular street! However, probably the combination of the cognac, with the fact that this was my all-knowing Teacher, plus the no doubt subconscious curiosity of what it might be like to do it with another man, permitted me to submit and allow the whole process to reach it’s natural conclusion – or unnatural conclusion, depending on which way you view it.
Anyway, obviously delighted by my apparent willingness and after taking a drink of water, the Teacher then confessed that he had not expected me to come, but another boy by the same name. So it seemed I had jumped the queue – for queue it certainly was. With my subsequent entry into the inner sanctum, not only did the concept of a “Man Number Seven” take on a whole different meaning, but I was soon to discover that I had become the member of what can only be described as a rather exclusive male harem.
As I was ushered out into the night air and mind played over what had taken place, the stars above which had once offered so much promise appeared to pale a little. Though part of me cried out violation, another part was quite frankly bewildered – almost intrigued. The sexual part wasn’t that much of a big deal, whether it’s a man or woman giving you a blow job it amounts to much the same, especially if you close your eyes, which I did. The worrying part was who was initiating it and why? It’s not as if the signals were not there. A few knowing, dare I say complicit, students had warned me, but I had either mocked them, or turned a deaf ear. Unfortunately I was unable to answer the question “why” and even if I had plucked up the courage to ask him I’m sure he would have given me some cosmic justification from higher forces. All I know is that the words and phrases he had uttered up until now and had once seemed so full of meaning and significance, had now lost their magic. For I was forced to contemplate the unthinkable: were they simply part of an insidious seduction strategy. Whatever the reason, my immediate concern was how was I going to handle this?
As it turned out, I did not have to worry, for I was quick to discover that the Teacher did all the handling for me. Indeed, the flood gates were now open and I was given a good handling at regular intervals, often without breaks in between. This man had a voracious appetite. Not only that, I was expected to put in my whole quota of daily labor at the same time.
However, far from being exhausted I also noticed that my sexual prowess toward the opposite sex began to manifest stronger than ever. It was as if the one sided clandestine rituals which were taking place within the Teacher’s study needed to be compensated by the intermingling of some good wholesome male / female energies.
And that’s what happened, for it wasn’t long before I found myself on what can only be described as a sexual rollercoaster ride. As the demands of my Teacher grew, I in turn sought refuge in the beds of willing females who would remind me of who I was, or who I thought I should be, though by this time all I felt was confusion. Worse still, I began to treat the women in the manner in which I felt I was being treated. It’s a fact that when one is seen to be close to the Teacher, one takes on a sort of reflected aura. Other students, especially newer ones, start to treat you as if you have something to offer (by proxy, as it were). This imaginary power is then yours to use, or given the quality of my immediate role model, to abuse. For a little favor on their part, I too could in turn offer them a hopeful word or two, especially if she was young and attractive!
Fortunately, I was awake enough to recognize how much I abhorred this kind of behavior. Even after many years I am still highly sensitive to this area and still regard it is one of the worst kinds of psychological abuses of power. To think it was a method that my former Teacher practiced on a daily basis, without so much as a scruple. I’m sure he still does.
So I have to pose the question once again, where had the “Work” gone in my life? Well, it had become smothered. The fire which had once driven my search for truth had all but gone out and I felt I was stumbling through a haze of thick smoke. One thing I did do was start observing the “Teacher’s actions with a new and critical eye. My proximity in his life gave me the opportunity to see things from the inside, so to speak, and often what I saw made me gasp. His outward persona was that of a powerful and charismatic leader – charisma is a quality irrespective of the person’s personality and can be found in everyone from depots through business me, to artists and has the power to attract, shock and awe! However, what I observed in private was an insecure, selfish man, with a raft of infantile tendencies, which were evident not only in his reactions to external events, but in his penchant for trying to predict the future – often catastrophes on a large scale. I even experienced moments where I felt sorry for this individual, as his inflated ego tried to provide an explanation for “everything and nothing”, while ascribing it to some higher force. (Much of this behavior only made sense later on when I became deeply involved with the works of Jung – part of my post FOF healing process.)
But now I sought ways out. First I tried confiding with a few close friends about what was taking place, but it was evident to see that even those people I regarded as my closest allies looked at me with disbelief, as I revealed the alter ego of their beloved Teacher. Such unsavory information was too much to swallow and they chose either not to hear, or to excuse his behavior in some fashion or other. Indeed, like I had been, they and 1500 other people were under his spell.
Next I decided to leave Renaissance and attempt to re-activate my work in some FOF outpost in the middle of no-where – at least that’s how it felt. But still the Teacher tracked me down and though I wasn’t physically with him, he made his physical presence known.
Finally there was one last recourse. I had to muster the courage to confront this man and express my feelings about the whole situation; something which I had until this point been unable to do with any conviction. I knew I had to prepare myself, as I was pretty certain what the reaction would be, having witnessed him deal with so called ‘rebellious’ students in the past.
I was not to be disappointed. In fact I only had to utter a few key words which appeared to question his behavior. At some point I must have made mention to a “moral deficiency”, which really put the cat among the pigeons. Anyway, it wasn’t long before the silent and overbearing wrath of someone who I can only describe as verging on fully fledged egomania, was threatening me with portents of hell and damnation, or words from some passage you could quite easily find in the Old Testament.
But I stood my ground, besides at this point I had little left to loose. In fact I began to grow in confidence as the initial burden fell away and a sense of relief crept over me. I began to sense the shallowness and immaturity of his words – those of a selfish child, who has been deprived of a handful of sweets. And that was that!
The days leading up to my leaving the FOF where very painful – the stars had now well and truly gone out. I just knew I had to go, but it was still the equivalent of emotional amputation. I had come to realize that I had over the years grown to become two separate persons, my work persona had gone one way, while who I really was had remained true. It was the latter which provided the chink of light through which I could make my escape. However getting my two parts to re-unite once again and work in some kind of harmony would take another twelve years of rehabilitative effort. Before this would happen, I would have to plunge very deep.
I left the FOF with nothing, or so it seemed. All my physical attachments were severed – my so called “friends”, family, home were pulled from under one’s feet, like some perverse party trick. I only had my thoughts, my recollections – which were to haunt me for years. Then there was the fear of what would happen to my during my return to “life*”. After all I had now passed beneath hell’s arch, which bore the inscription: “All hope abandon ye who enter here”.
However, this is the subject of another episode: of rebuilding, reaffirmation and re-gaining confidence and self-esteem, all of which had been pretty much knocked out of me. What I can safely say is that you only know you are brainwashed if you are fortunate to emerge from out the other side. Until then it is like a drug that slowly permeates you mind, as you become part of a small world with it’s crooked and twisted ways and utterly blind and deaf to the faces and voices of sanity on the outside.
I therefore dedicate the above to those who find the will or the way – or simply the luck – to make it out and so have the possibility of knowing what it is to taste true freedom.
* “Life” or “life people” is the name given to those outside the FOF and therefore effectively dead, or without possibilities. A wonderful piece of irony!
February 10, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Dear moderator,
If your reference are towards the “ending” of my letter then I could agree with you al duo I do not apologies for it at all.
But if your reference towards the content of my letter then I would simply suggest you to join FOF and to stay there a little longer then one prospective meeting and if you really wish to dig more deeply then moving straight to Isis will be your best bet.
You see,to host the website does not yet mean to “know” and does not grant more privilege of speech.Nevertheless,I think it is important to respect all speakers and to communicate in diplomatic manner for sake of the discussion.
February 10, 2007 at 11:46 pm
I hope to be invited to Flypaper’s party in spring! I’ll bring wine or whatever you want me to bring. Tell me where to go! Can I bring a friend? 🙂
It is truly amazing how certain things get revealed to us at certain times. And it is pretty much impossible to “reveal” them to others, if their time hasn’t come yet. They will be deaf and blind, and even angry, until that one day, when the veil will be lifted for them once and for all. And on that day they will laugh. And take a deep breath. And the seriousness of it all will go out of the window…
All of us, characters, have roles to play in this movie, and someone’s role is to be a seeker, to push for “awakening”, through smoke and doubt and die trying, and for some to teach awakening whether or not they have any idea of it, and for some – to fight for justice. All of it to watch and be entertained.
If you think you’re just a character, then you are limited to it’s role in a play, whatever the role is. Everything is VERY serious and dramatic. Very personal. All about you! This is the way it is until it’s over.
Freedom comes when something in us suddenly recognises that we are not just a character, we are – what watches it… And in fact, always been that… Since the beginning…
In fact, Robert once said (among many other weird things he said as well) – Remember, you are not what is observed, you are what observes.
He was right on this one! Excellent. If he only could stop there…
What is observed – is everchanging movie, beyond anyones control, with things just happening, with dramatic and comical episodes, and various characters involved.
By whom it is observed? What watches the movie? Who am I really? Am I a man#4 or am I what is watching a man#4?
These are the questions to ask yourself. The answer is actually closer than you might think… It’s in you right now. Alive and awake. Watching quietly.
“Know thyself – and thou shall know all the mysteries of the gods and of the universe.”
Who do you think wakes up? Imaginary “you”, an observed character? A man#4? And then what -it becomes all awake, and powerful and great, and gets a golden medal, and everyone envies him and follows him… Doesn’t seem right, does it. It’s all -observed. It’s not what we are.
And “what observes” is actually in no need to wake up, it is never asleep… It observes, it’s always “on”. It is YOU, consciousness behind your eyes. It has no name and no boundary. It needs no name, it needs nothing. It’s just there. It dosn’t come and go, it’s there ALWAYS. Recognize it, and be free from illusion!
FOF is a part of the movie, may be a dramatic one, and Robert is just one character in it – a charismatic and complex one, but only a character, just as other charcters. Better-worse – doesn’t matter. His powers are part of the character believed by other characters. It’s all a movie, it’s observed. This discussion is just an episode…
Who is observing? What is aware? Aren’t YOU watching it now?
Where is the anger, where are problems and arguments – do they matter really?
None of the appearances have any power or deep meaning in themselves. All comes and goes and is observed, reflected in consciousness that is Us.
You are what observes. Please stop right here, and recognize it!
Join the party!
February 11, 2007 at 3:06 am
OK, X-manLS, I retract the sarcasm, it was out of line. But I felt that you have been pretty far out of line here on many occasions, and the point needed to be made. You are obviously an intelligent person with something to say. You had some experiences and I would like to know what they were; along with John’s, Ellen’s, Charles’, etc. Can you somewhat calmly and objectively desrcribe the events and conditions? I think that would actually go a lot further than constantly repeating that FOF is an evil cult, and that cults destroy minds and lives, etc.
In any case, pro-FOF, anti-FOF, or whatever, I think we’ll collectively stand a better chance of sussing-out a bit of truth on this blog if conditions exist that allow and encourage anyone who might have an angle on all this to speak. Even someone who has “god forbid” something remotely non-negative to say about FOF should not from the get-go feel they’d just be lambasted or instantly written off as a moron or a hypnotized party-liner. Why would they bother participating? A little dialectic here, at least some ‘thesis-antithesis’ will be helpful: not just thesis-thesis-thesis, ad nauseum. Because that just creates another kind of tyranny and in-breeding of thought. Not at all unlike that which FOF has been accused of in many postings here.
And, lastly, let me come clean: I often use a spell-checker. In my last post, I had even misspelled the word ‘misspelled’, not once, but twice. And I AM a native speaker of English! But then, what I had to say was really not about spelling problems at all.
Anyway, onward and upward, lots of new material to consider.
–BBB
February 11, 2007 at 1:21 pm
Hello friends. As a former current member of FOF (figure that one out) for 30+ years and singed by the flames of the inner circle, I have been on both sides now.
As my true witness can say: Much of what has been said here is the truth and need not be criticized, edited, defended or denied – it is!
My brief comment is: It was only a matter of time until such a venue would appear since the Fellowship Council expunged the discussion list that it privately provided to the members for the discussion of the Work. No such quality of truth as you see here would have been allowed by that moderated list.
As William Shakespeare said in his character Hamlet: Foul deeds shall rise though all the world o’erwhelm them to men’s eyes.
[Hey, that would make a good angle for a meeting, if only it could be given.]
February 11, 2007 at 7:57 pm
Hello,
To qualify I left the school two months ago, I was a member for four years and a student at the center in Atlanta.
There are some quite honest posts here from former students. Most of what you read about the school on the web is old second hand info. that doesn’t reflect the current realities of the situation at the FOF. Many of the posts here are, however, a more current reflection (e.g. Charles and No person)-
During my time in FOF nothing bad happened. I had insights into behavioral mechanics, had exciting and beautiful experiences, and prepared the foundation for realizing that all of that is not needed to awaken. It was a very liberating experience that I do not regret. Now I have outgrown it, but at the time it was useful.
On a very mundane note:
I was never harrassed sexually by R. Post 72 reflects an unfortunate period when Robert was a very active sexual predator- after the lawsuits he seems to confine his interests to a select group of beautiful young male groupies (they could all be fashion models) who seem to eagerly vie for his attention. He appears to leave most other males alone based on my experience, and if you are more average looking you might get invited to wine cellar dinner and get a kiss on the forehead, but that is about it and even that won’t happen much.).
In general, I never felt threatened or forced to do anything (I always had a choice, even if it meant to leave the school)
The first two years of the school were relatively inexpensive, but then costs skyrocketed. It is much more than 10% typically at least 20-30% or more.
The focus of the school is on being present and having experiences in essence with other students and the teacher. These events/experiences were often very refined, exciting and beautiful. You could be in a spiritual high, esp. at Isis and with the other students in the center.
Much of the activities are centered around travel to museums and cultural events/locations, fancy dinner parties, and events like Ballet (They have had world class ballet at Isis with top Russian and American dancers for a few years now and even created a replica of Greek Theatron to host the events, really amazing).
Going to Isis was always exciting. Everyone is dressed beautifully and acts very refined. External consideration was the norm, so everyone I met tried to be nice and help me.
When I first encountered the teaching Robert was focused on the 44 conscious beings (individuals everyone would recognize as being special e.g. Buddha. But then the teaching became more and more difficult to understand once we started with the Bible, Sufis, Koran, etc. I kept using it as a test of not identifying and transformation of suffering- which was painful but did produce some results that seemed important at the time.
The house of cards fell down, however, once some FoF friends introduced me to non-duality ideas.
If anyone wants to ask a question about FoF just post it here and I can reply.
Thanks.
Former American Student
February 11, 2007 at 8:58 pm
In 1979 “I” was asked to leave fof. “I left my heart in San Francisco”. It’s amazing I found it again. Thanks for the website and all the comments.
February 12, 2007 at 12:40 pm
from:
ArkansasBob · THE BURTON ASSRAM
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasBob/message/5
Case # 060209
[Settled before going to court and jury and thereafter seal from public view.]
Fellowship Of Friends-A Cult In Oregon House, California.
Another lawsuit filed against F.O.F/Renaissance Vineyard &
Winery, Robert Burton, Girard Haven, Abraham Goldman, Helga
Ruth Mueller, and Clair Bowen–directors of Fellowship of
Friends, Inc. The lawsuit brought by Troy Buzbee and filed on April 29, 1996 in the County of Yuba.
Complaint for Damages is in Case # 060209
1. Fraud
2. Intentional infliction of emotional distress
3. Negligent infliction of emotional distress
4. Breach of fiduciary duty
5. Negligent supervision
6. Sexual misconduct with a minor
7. Sexual harassment
8. Wrongful discharge
9. Negligence
10. Failure to pay minimum wage
11. Battery
Fellowship Of Friends Cult – By Michelle M. Milligan
“Within the pages of the case are facts and details concerning sexual and perverted acts practiced by Burton, his philosophies and ideologies expected of the members.”
According to the case, Robert Burton, “The Teacher”, as referred to by members, began the corporation Fellowship of Friends in 1971.
The “Fourth Way philosophy is taught and practiced by the Fellowship of Friends.
The location of The Fellowship of Friends herein referred to as the
F.O.F. is in Oregon House, however the F.O.F. refers to their location rather as “The Renaissance”.
Troy Buzbee’s father became a member of the F.O.F. in 1976. Richard Buzbee’s son Troy was only seven years of age. Richard Buzbee was told that if he paid his teaching payments each month and followed the tasks and suggestions of the teacher, Robert Burton that he would
enter “the way,” become “conscious” and “immortal.” He was told that Burton was a “conscious being” and that he was “celibate.” He was told that he could trust Burton completely with his body and soul. From 1976 through May 1994 Troy’s father was a member of the Fellowship of Friends.
As Plaintiff Troy Buzbee grew up he regarded Robert Burton as a God. According to the case distinction between Burton and Troy’s father were not clear to him at times. Troy Buzbee became a member on October 10, 1986 when he was 17 years of age, virgin.
After Defendant Burton and Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC’s factual representations and undue influence caused Troy Buzbee to lose his ability to think independently, he became
increasingly subject to the domination, control and undue influence practiced, implemented, and used by said Defendants. In direct consequence of such deception, coercive persuasion, brainwashing and undue influence, Defendant Burton used Troy Buzbee, among hundreds of other young men, for the partial gratification of his satyriasis, an uncontrollable compulsion to engage in sexual conduct with scores, if not hundreds, of men. In addition thereof, Defendant Burton exploited Troy Buzbee for the provision of cheap labor, well under the minimum wage. Said exploitation continued off and on until the time when Troy Buzbee terminated his membership with Fellowship of Friends, Inc., in
August 1994.
Commencing in December 1986, Burton, would have “teaching dinners” during which he would ply Troy with alcoholic beverages. After one particular such meal in December 1986, Burton instructed Troy to come
to Burton’s room and to shut and lock the door. Burton told Troy that Burton was “an angel in a man’s body”, and the gods wished for Troy to be close to Burton. Defendant Burton then held in an embrace. Defendant Burton said, “influence C wishes you to be close with me. “He repeatedly assured Troy that his “soul was not (his) body, and that the angels wished for (Troy) to be with (Burton).” Burton explicitly told Troy that the “angels” wanted Troy to disrobe, and
the “angels” wanted Troy to submit to Burton’s sexual advances because Burton himself was an “angel”, a goddess in a man’s body.”
Burton said to Troy, “I promise you I am an angel in a man’s
body.” “You have to remember that I did not write the play about
Robert Burton.” Burton would kiss Troy on the forehead which he said represented the seat of the soul and then instruct Troy to “separate” from his body and just “let go”. Burton reminded Troy that Troy’s body would soon decay while his soul was immortal. Burton told Troy that he would talk to him after he died using the same soft voice he used at the time. Burton explained that for him the interaction with Troy went beyond conventional sex and into “supersex”, which was a
method characterological evolution. Defendant Burton stated, “My sexuality is on the level of Super-Sex.” From December ’86–April ’94, Troy submitted to Burton’s demands, which were: Drop out of college, provide Burton with sexual favors and provide hour long massages after Burton had been sexually serviced.
Burton used money from the corporation to pay other members for performing specific sexual acts. In denominations of $50 or $100. The case mentions one case of “specific sexual acts” performed on Burton by Karl Feldman, Troy Buzbee’s best friend. Burton spoke openly about
his sexuality in the form of jokes at the all-male dinners that he would often lavishly host at all-male, all-you-can-drink “symposiums.” He would boast that “one hundred boys would not
be enough (for his sexual appetite). “Troy worked at the gatehouse on F.O.F. property. Burton directed certain members who are “guards” to arm themselves with firearm-type weapons. Burton then had him become his “personal” guard. During the next four years Troy observed numerous men in Burton’s room in a single night. Troy was asked to massage Burton after his lovers left.
According to the case, Burton suffers from sexually transmitted
diseases. He made no effort to tell Troy. As a consequence, Troy
acquired viral herpes. In addition, Troy suffered from stomach ulcers. Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Inc. was built as a bomb-shelter in obeisance to Defendant Burton’s prophecies regarding massive and wide-spread disaster and chaos in the near future. Defendant Burton uses Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Inc as his alter ego in the same way he uses Defendant Fellowship Of Friends, Inc.
According to the case…..
At all times mentioned herein Defendants Girard Haven, Abraham
Goldman (also an attorney), Helga Ruth Mueller, and Clair Bowen were members of the board of directors of the Defendant corporation, Fellowship Of Friends, INC.
At all times mentioned herein all of the Defendants were acting as
the agents and servants of each other and in doing the acts
complained of acted within the scope of their agency and employment and at the direction and with the knowledge and ratification of the other Defendants.
The Defendant Burton at all times mentioned herein, dominated,
influenced, and controlled, and does now dominate, influence and
control the Defendant corporations and the directors and officers thereof, as well as the business, property and affairs of the Defendant corporations.
At all times mentioned herein, there existed and does now exist, a unity of interest and ownership between the Defendant Burton and the Defendant corporations; the individuality and separateness of said Defendant and Defendant corporations has ceased; and despite knowledge of these facts, Defendant corporations and its officers and directors have had notice of acquiesced in and agreed, consented to, and ratified the conduct of Defendant Burton as herein alleged, At
all times since its corporation to the present time, the Defendant corporations have been and are now a mere shell and naked framework which the Defendant Burton has used and does now use as a conduit for
the conduct of his personal business, property and affairs.
Defendant corporations are subject to a unity of control, and its corporate structure was created as an attempt to avoid payment of taxes and civil judgments and to confuse courts and those seeking redress for these Defendant’s acts. Due to the unity of personnel,
commingling of assets, and commonality of business objectives, these Defendant’s attempts at separation of Defendant corporations and
Defendant Burton should be disregarded.
Defendant Robert Burton directs, controls and operates Defendant
corporations and uses them to enforce his orders and carry out his attacks on groups, agencies or individuals, including the acts against Troy alleged herein, to the extent there is no separate identity between Burton and said Defendant corporations and any claim of such separate identity should be disregarded.
The Defendant corporations were created and are being continued and maintained pursuant to a fraudulent plant, scheme and device, created and operated by the Defendant Burton, whereby the benefits and product of the income and revenue of the Defendant corporations are
diverted to the use and enjoyment of the Defendant Burton through the Defendant corporations to himself while concealing the truth of his financial relationship with Defendant corporations.
Prior to the formation of F.O.F. and Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, Burton formed a conspiracy in concert between the corporations for the express purpose and intent of developing and implementing a plan and scheme which would permit Burton and co-conspirators to:
a. use, abuse and exploit the fiduciary relationship between the Defendant Burton and the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC,, on one hand and the members of and contributors to the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC,, on the other hand for their own personal unlawful gain; and
b. to use, abuse and exploit the fiduciary relationship between the Defendant Burton, as ‘founding minister’, and selective members of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., for the
express purpose and intent of performing unlawful and perverted
sexual acts upon the persons of said members, including Troy, and by causing certain of the members, including Troy, to work for Defendant corporation Renaissance Vineyard & Winery, INC., and Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC.
That all times pertinent hereto, the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., and the Defendant Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, INC, were formed and operated by Burton and said other Defendants for their sole and exclusive aggrandizement and to create an ambiance of
neo-religious import which was and is currently being used by Burton and the other Defendants to manipulate, unduly influence, and control the minds, bodies, and the assets of the members of the Defendant corporations for the sole and exclusive purpose of 1) satisfying Burton’s satyriasis-his voracious appetite for perverted sexual pleasure and elegant life-style; and 2) diverting the contributions
and donations of the membership to their own use and purposes.
Members of the Fellowship are required to donate ever-increasing sums of money as they become further and further vested as members of the
Fellowship with the caveat that when donations required of them are not timely and completely made their membership is either revoked or they become indentured servants of the Defendant corporation in residence at its principal place of business for nominal compensation and required to perform degrading menial tasks of a full-time basis at the whim and caprice of the Defendant Burton and other authorized
representatives of the corporate Defendant Fellowship Of Friends,
INC., and Defendant Renaissance Vineyard And Winery, INC. All
donations made by members of the Fellowship are devoted either to the continuing worldwide recruitment of new and replacement members with
fresh money to contribute to “the cause,” or the acquisition of
assets, including but not limited to, Defendant Renaissance Vineyard and Winery, INC,, which are ostensibly being acquired for the use and benefit of the membership but which are in reality being acquired for
the personal benefit and aggrandizement of Defendant Burton and some or all of the other individual Defendants named herein.
Meanwhile, Defendant Burton annexes free and unfettered use and enjoyment in and to the assets of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., Defendant corporation Renaissance
Vineyard And Winery, INC., and the benefits to be derived there from, including, but not limited to, the provision money for bribes to young male members to prostitute themselves in an intensification of Defendant Burton’s compulsion and demand for sexual servicing of his
long-standing state of satyriasis.
The entire, purpose, scope and extent of the aforesaid plan and
scheme as implemented by said Defendants is to effectively deny the members of the Defendant corporation Fellowship Of Friends, INC., not only the right to participate in its rituals and teachings on an ongoing basis but also, and of equal importance, to deny members of said Defendant corporation, including Plaintiff, of their just right to participate as beneficiaries entitled to use and enjoy
the property of said Defendant corporation.
Troy suffered from fright, horror, grief, shame, anger, humiliation, embarrassment, chagrin, disappointment, worry, self-loathing, self-betrayal and self distrust.
Haven, Goldman, Mueller, Bowen knew of all these afore-mentioned
practices of Burton. They have agreed and abetted Burton in his
efforts. They knew of Burton’s diseases and said nothing.
At all times pertinent hereto, Defendant Burton, and the other
Defendants, caused Troy’s mental and emotional centers to become
deceptively and coercively inculcated with the following tenets:
a. Defendant Burton communicated with “C-influence” which was
provided by “44 angels” which were each individually named including, but not limited to, Jesus, “Benjamin Franklin,” “Lincoln” and “Bach,”
and that Burton was the Fellowship’s only connection with
said “angels.”
b. Defendant was and is the most important person on the planet since Christ. Defendant Burton claims a numerology of consciousness where he has already advanced to a man number 7.3, with Christ being a man
number 8. Burton is above man-made laws, a moral law unto himself.
c. “C-influence” brought Troy to the Fellowship and Defendant Burton, and that Troy’s interactions with Defendant Burton would be the most
important relationship that Troy could ever have.
d. Defendant Burton is assisted by “C-influence” to guide the
spiritual evolution of the member “students” with “shocks” designed
to help them “awaken”.
e. The members of the Fellowship are special, and set apart by higher forces for survival. Members of Defendant Burton’s “inner circle” must associate only among Fellowship members, must disregard non-members, and demonize ex-members who are critical of Burton whom “the
gods” will “destroy.” Such ex-members’ opportunities for growth and development are terminated failing to submit to Burton.
f. Defendant Burton possesses gift of prophecy that is infallible.
g. In 1998 California will “fall” in huge earthquake whereupon people will die in massive numbers.
h. In 2006 there will be an Armageddon, where all humans everywhere except for members of the Fellowship will be expunged by higher forces.
i. Members of the Fellowship will inherit the world’s material goods and act as the “Ark” for a new civilization based on that of the Greeks of about 450 B.C., and are thus presently preparing themselves to bear the torch of civilization now and in the future.
j. By following Defendant Burton’s directives so as to gain “being” (depth of character) through separating from suffering and immersing themselves in culture, mostly Western art, classical music, opera and
ballet, Fellowship members, including Troy, are preparing themselves for being the “Ark”.
k. Everything the members of the Fellowship, including Troy, had
learned since birth was “false” and caused him to exist in a kind
of “waking sleep.” The Defendant Burton informed Troy that in order to “awaken,” he had to replace what was “false” with what was “true” which was defined as the system of ideas as The Fourth Way, including all the “new” knowledge that Burton had added to that system.
l. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that without “C-influence” Troy could not “awaken”.
m. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that to “awaken” was the only way to avoid having the
purpose of his life be to provide “food for the moon.”
n. Defendant Burton stated, and states, that Troy’s people outside the group as “life-people,” he said were “tragedies.” Burton said
Troy’s own mother was such a “life-person” and that the Fellowship was Troy’s “real” family and Burton was his “Father.”
o. Defendant Burton stated, and states, to the general Fellowship and to Troy, that any challenge to the extent of Burton’s excesses of greed and satyriasis to be a lack of understanding of his practice of “crazy wisdom” which he asserts that he must force himself to perform is forcing himself to live that way for the good of the members as a “lesson.”
Burton’s Men Number Five Students
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/ArkansasBob/message/6
Burton has claimed three “men number five” students over the past 30 years. The first one was Donald MacDonald, who left Burton’s “teaching” when he discovered that Burton’s vineyard workers were living on peanutbutter and jelly sandwiches while working 12 hours a day, 7 days a week. Burton was being served fine cuisine.
The second man number five was Miles Barth, who left after conferring with the psychiatrist of one of the boys Burton had “relations” with. Miles reported that Burton’s first reaction when hearing that his student of 17 years was leaving was: “This will be bad for the money.” Later Miles is reported to have said that in fact he was never “conscious” and the whole thing was a scam cooked up by Burton.
The third man number five was a formatory yes-man named Girard Haven. It is reported that Girard is presently sitting in a wheelchair, wearing a diaper and drooling on himself after suffering a massive stroke.
[There was also blessed as, or to be, a man number five J. T-B,
then President of RVW, now not a member.]
February 12, 2007 at 5:12 pm
Dear Charles,
You say devoting one’s whole life to the FOF seems to to be a mistake, but 26 years is getting up there. I was a member for 13 years and I certainly felt I had some catching up to do…
However, I wish you luck with your Zen pursuits. Beethoven Piano Sonatas are helpful too…
Regards, Steven
P.S. Have you ever traversed the “Bridge of Sighs”. If you have, you’ll know what I’m talking about…
February 13, 2007 at 1:00 am
My trust in Robert’s spiritual guidance was broken many years before I left the FOF. It took those years to become free of the fear of following my own conscience.
During that time I would confuse myself with what COULD be an explanation for what I was seeing, and would retreat to a place of distrust of my own simple truth, fearful of making a mistake that might damm my evolution forever.
Eventually I came to see that whatever utlimately might be THE truth, I needed to follow my own truth to get there. I saw that I had EVERY reason to choose to trust my sincerity and believe that I could learn from my experience, rather than believing I couldn’t trust myself so needed to follow someone else (Robert) who was simply following his truth!
No blame – just a parting of ways…
The peace and clarity that came from this choice was profound. How I choose to behave and live is now my responsibility. My experience has been that this taking of responsibility encourages consciousness…
I offer this in the spirit of friendship, may it help someone find their way –
Sarah
February 13, 2007 at 2:32 am
The following is in response to a contribution from two days ago, by “Former student” (post #72), one of several major recent additions to this conversation.
First off, I want to say that your posting really blew my mind. You are a highly gifted writer and you brought the ‘scene’ you encountered in FOF very much to life for me, as reader. Part of what made your description so powerful was the perceptive manner in which you brought yourself (emotional states, thoughts, reactions, etc.) into the overall account, along with all the well-chosen and very telling ‘ambient’ details of the situation. No doubt the efforts you’ve made over time have helped ‘put consciousness back into the past,’ in places where the former youth of 20-something was unaware, whether through naivete, inexperience, buffers, or what have you.
In light of everything you have said, I’d like to offer for consideration, the following statement by a prominent spiritual teacher (btw, not Robert Burton!):
“Forget pretending that the Teacher can do no wrong. This sort of immature projection is what seekers do as a way of avoiding responsibility for themselves. One should never give their good sense away, and if they do, it’s their own fault. Mature respect and trust are always earned. If the student gives them immediately, this is not only immature, but also dangerous. It’s a sign that the student is not seeking the Truth, but is actually seeking a mother or father figure–someone to tell them what to do and to relieve them of the insecurity of not knowing what the Truth actually is.”
I offer this dispassionately — not as an opposite challenge, or worse, an accusation that would throw ‘blame’ back on one who has suffered. As I have stated a number of times in prior posts, I am very much in favor of moving beyond the psychology of blame, radically and entirely.
–BBB
February 13, 2007 at 7:30 am
Thank you all for your posts, Former Student, Former American Student, and Sarah.
Former American Student, I’m sorry to point out, however, that the lawsuit does not appear to have exerted a calming effect on Robert Burton’s sexual behavior. At least from what I’ve heard on the rumor mill, it has become more profligate and depraved in its expression.
And Baleful Bedouin, with all due respect, your citation misses the point. The Fourth Way insists on a huge amount of relinquishing of personal will to the Teacher. That’s part of the deal. Undoubtedly some people wanted a mother or father figure, but the point is, if you are following the Fourth Way, it requires such trust. In fact, Ouspensky says if you cannot trust the Teacher, it’s best to throw the whole business over. Which, incidentally, is exactly what he did.
And which many of the people posting didn’t. That’s the trap.
February 13, 2007 at 7:31 pm
I am a longtime member who has recently made the decision, with great relief, to leave this group.
I have known for a long time that Robert Burton’s teaching was seriously limited and even making things more complicated and difficult than they are in fact. He is promising his followers awakening but because of his lack of understanding he is keeping them stuck and dependent on an increasingly cumbersome and unnecessary technique – something that he calls “The Sequence”. There are also many untruths and theories taught that have nothing to do with the Fourth Way or any other path to awakening.
I have wondered for years if he was knowingly deceiving people or if he in fact believed what he was doing and saying. Some of his statements and claims are so outlandish that it is almost impossible to believe that he could make them and even more bizarre that intelligent people would believe them.
Someone recently told me about a psychological condition known as pathological narcissism. I did a little reading about this condition on the internet. Robert Burton seems to be a classic example.
According to my understanding of this condition his whole identity would crumble if he saw and acknowledged that what he has created is a charade. It also explains his habit of devaluing people that have served him for years at great expense to themselves if they choose to question him or leave the organization. It explains his unquenchable lust for money and sex. It explains his need to be constantly surrounded by very passive people who reflect back to him the illusion he has created about himself. It explains his enormous sense of entitlement at the expense of others and his exaggerated claims of accomplishment out of all proportion to reality. It has even made it easier to have a little compassion for him. I think as far as spiritual evolution goes he is in a very unfortunate place.
At the last Fellowship event with Robert that I attended it was clear to me that almost everyone there was in some state of hypnosis.
It has also become clear that the real motives behind this organization are sex and money. The FOF has become highly skilled at fundraising from the membership. There is a monthly membership fee of several hundreds of dollars that basically only buys the ability to go onto the property. All other events (except for an occasional open market where members sell goods and services to each other) such as dinners with the teacher, meetings led by him or other students, receptions, concerts, any publications, etc. have a significant additional cost. Members are also strongly encouraged to donate expensive items several times a year to be auctioned off to the group. Those who can afford it buy dinners for eight at these auctions for $8000. About $500,000 a year is raised in this way alone. There are also travel events that are organized by the FOF. Members are made to feel they are missing out on the “cutting edge” of the teaching if they cannot manage to afford these costly trips which also result in large financial profits to the organization. There are constant raffles that members are solicited to participate in. At every event or gathering there are young female members that go from table to table and group to group asking members to buy raffle tickets or to sign up for breakfasts, teas, and dinners with the teacher. These events cost somewhere from $100 – $300 each. Special dinners, such as Xmas, New Year’s, the teacher’s birthday, the anniversary of his “crystallization”, etc are sold for even greater amounts, $500 – $1000. Members are also asked to give money for wildly expensive gifts of jewelry for him (that he has already selected) for his birthday and other occasions. The use of credit cards is highly encouraged even if the ability to pay is doubtful. It is needless to say that many members are in serious financial trouble.
He is almost continuously surrounded by the various young men who are his current lovers. This entourage is usually at least eight but often ten or more. Most of these men now come from Russia or other countries where a visa to the USA is highly coveted. They sheepishly follow him around or sit passively near him without speaking, usually dressed in the expensive suits, shoes and jewelry that they receive as gifts. They are so expressionless that they almost seem like zombies. These men are not homosexual but they have chosen for various reasons to submit to sexual behavior that is against their natures. I always found this to be extremely disturbing.
In spite of these things there are many seemingly sincere and intelligent people in this group who know what is going on yet still somehow believe that the FOF is a legitimate spiritual school.
I would like to understand how so many intelligent people, including several mental health professionals, could have joined this group but especially why in countless cases it has taken many years and much anguish to leave. I think Sarah’s recent posting (#82) comes very close to an explanation.
I would also like to express appreciation for Former Student’s posting (#71) and just say that I hope he will take the time to write the episode he refers to regarding his process of rebuilding confidence and self esteem. This could be very helpful to other former students.
I would also like to add that in spite of the strange and idiosyncratic nature of the FOF I did learn some important things and certainly had some very interesting experiences.
February 13, 2007 at 7:49 pm
In my recent posting I mistakenly referred to Sarah’s comments as #82 and Former Student’s as #71. They should be,respectively, #81 and #72.
February 13, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Thank you BBB for your well meaning advice (I’m post 72 by the way). However, upon joining the school at an early age when a sense of insecurity and the need for a father figure were wedded bedfellows, which was certainly true in my case and in many of those young students I witnessed, such wisdom was truly lacking. As Matthew rightly remarks, many students, like myself at the time, had reached a point in their lives when they were ready and willing to devote themselves to the “Work”, even if that meant submitting to and placing their trust wholeheartedly in the Teacher. This is an attitude more common in Eastern philosophies, I know, but Burton made this quite clear at the start. It was a case of relinquishing one’s will, ego or whatever one wishes to call it and the “I” which dared to question was made to feel dirty.
Of course on retrospect your quoted words of advice make complete sense, but back then in my “salad days” common sense too often gave way to euphoria. Besides, could common sense truly be conned into accepting Burton’s rationale: “Do what I say, not what I do”. His “doings” being the result of his exulted position as a higher man and his ability to communicate with higher forces – something we groundlings were never destined to understand in our lowly and ignorant position. Yes, we had to take his words and actions on trust and not question – at least not while he was around. On top of this, such submission could conceivably go on for many lifetimes. For never in my years did I ever witness Burton encourage a student to leave the group for a positive reason i.e. he or she had evolved sufficiently that they could take responsibility for themselves. Even Ouspensky did this and of course on retrospect – there’s that word again – it make complete sense. (Maybe someone has in the last 16 years.)
Finally I would like to respond to one of the posts who asked if their were any positive aspects about the FOF – especially coming from a former student. I would just like to say that most of the people I met during my “tour” – though there were certainly some strange specimens – were well meaning, genuine in their pursuit for knowledge toward some higher aspiration, generally willing to “work” for such gains and more often than not prepared to sacrifice a great deal in the process, whether that took the form of money, time or “ego”.
Though I found it difficult at the time to come to terms with the sudden severance of all relationships / friendships at the time of leaving the group, I do not hold this against anyone. I only need to recall how I reacted when so called friends departed while I was still a member and the short shrift I would give them, but when one realises that such a group existence relies on a continual reinforcement of belief in what they are doing, outsiders can only pose as a threat to the busting of this bubble. Interestingly enough on the very rare occasion when as a former student I made contact with a current member of the FOF, I quickly discovered we had little or no common ground from which to start or continue a “meaningful” conversation. So in some ways the “no contact” rule was more helpful to those who had left.
Happily there is no such fear here, as the conversation for the main part has been interesting, genuine even edifying at times.
Simon
February 13, 2007 at 11:06 pm
Hi Simon- (a.k.a. Man number 72!)
Thanks for your followup remarks. With Vena, I also hope you will share ‘episode two’ sometime soon. As for the reference I gave, the quote on student-teacher relations, please do not hear it as advice, above all not advice from me. I merely offered it, in light of your story and this entire discussion, as a thought for consideration. No finger-shaking, 20/20 hindsight “you should have known better” kind-of-thing. Matthew’s comment notwithstanding, I do see it throwing light on one crucial aspect of the situation, one enabling mechanism among many which were at work — regardless of whether or in what sense the 4th Way insists on absolute trust of teacher as a precondition. (Of course, in the canonical presentation, it does. But that gets into a whole other can of worms…)
-BBB
February 14, 2007 at 5:21 am
This board is just amazing.
See, the Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion, what you have done? Did you have any idea that your humble post about a Prospective Student meetng in London will create such a sturr? I thank you so much for letting it happen. This board is such a support for those who feel trapped and confused and at dead end, and have no strength on their own to see through smoke and break free…
It feels like the time has come for truth, and many of our friends are ready to hear it.
Historically corrupt structures are destined to fall sooner or later – this is just inevitable, it’s part of their nature. Too much support is needed for a huge expensive thing based on false premises. And the truth needs no support.
The illusion may go on for long time, as it already did, supported by fear, and then one day some little kid says: Look, the Emperor has no clothes!
Some older students justify their loyalty to the school with the belief that Robert’s only aim is to wake us up. It’s a noble and beautiful thought, but it’s just not so. I am not saying it in a negative or angry way – it is just what I simply observed in a number of specific situations.. His own actions proved that other things – like money, cuff links from a jeweller, or new Russian lover – were more important to him then anyone’s awakening… If you didn’t have money to pay – you weren’t allowed to attend, regardless of your sincere desire to wake up. It clearly looks like money is more important, than someone’s awakening.
A large meeting with students on East Coast was cancelled, because a new lover had visa issues and couldn’t arrive, and the fact that over 100 eager students were waiting and preparing didn’t seem to matter. Was their awakening teacher’s priority? Or, may be, it was – meeting his new lover?
And another well-organised meeting with over 100 students was very quickly ended, because the jeweller in the city was about to close, and it was getting late to pick up the cufflings… I stood right next to my teacher, who was… well.. identified and kind of edgy, and really eager to go get his cuff links… I heard every word he said, all about his new cuff links… It was so hard to witness, because it was disillusioning. Then I wished I haven’t headr it! His glorious image was crumbling before my eyes…This 2 events broke my heart. Back then I too strongly believed that the first priority of my teacher was his students. Well, not really… How naive of me… His actions just speak much louder than words.
Some students said that a true teacher’s role is to disturb and annoy you, to keep you from sleep. May be this was said as a desperate attempt to save an illusion one has about the teacher. Well, if that’s the case, then lots of people around us, including our kids, co-workers, slow drivers and even the president himself, are doing a very good job at annoying us, and are not even charging for it or calling it a Teaching…
In the search which followed, I finally stumbled upon some Advaita teachers. What an increadible luck! Besides resonating with the ideas, I was truly touched with the fact that people I never met before were so available and ready to talk in person, offer to help, point, clarify things and answer questions related to awakening. I could never in 12 years talk to Robert in person – it’s just not possible… He is not available for simple people like me. May be it was the case 20 years ago, but certainly not these days.
These various Advaita people were simple and approachable, didn’t claim to posess an exclusive knowledge, didn’t call themselves special higher beings, and were only pointing towards a certain understanding. There was a simplicity and uniformity in what they were saying. They charged barely anything, some 10-20 dollars, and also offered help at no money at all for those who are in need. There was no pressure to join and follow, and submit yourself to anyone’s will. In fact, there is nothing to join.
Bob Adamson from Australia, whom I e-mailed, immediately offered me a telephone conversation.
At Adyashanti’s satsang people with low income attend for free. John Wheeler asked for 10 dollar donation for 2 hour talk in a small group – and offered to waive it if it was too much to pay for someone. Anything beyond 25 dollar donation per talk he called “unreasonable”. He was available for a private talk, for e-mail assistance, for a phone talks – whatever could be helpful.
These people don’t call themselves “teachers”, and yet they have such honest selfless desire to help a desperate seeker like myself. There is something impersonal and true about them. There is an undeniable generosity in sharing their understanding.
The most amazing is that what they are offering – actually works. This I cannot and will not try to prove, this is something to experience and verify for yourself if it’s meant to happen.
My FOF “state” experiences of 12 years were just that – high state experiences. They were not lasting. Yes, they were pleasant, beautiful, special – but they all are gone. Just like states from drugs or wine – they come and go. We are not states. States have nothing to do with awakening. This is just another believed illusion.
I am immensely grateful for the clear truth that has been pointed by John Wheeler. It is a different scale of things, and the liberating effects truly seem to last.
All I can say to my dear FOF friends – please don’t be afraid. Please listen to your heart. Please don’t give up. Life is a wonderful game, and things are not necessarily what they appear…
February 14, 2007 at 10:33 am
I have been a member of the fellowship since the eighties. The last 9 years of which I have been on the verge of leaving or having to leave for various -mosty and often financial ones.
But before I continue I believe that you must make an assumption that I am capable of both rational thought and the ability to apply that quality of thought to my personal and subjective circumstances at least to the same extent as others here are capable of. There is no point in continuing to read on otherwise. Also many of the things I mention may make very little sense if you have not been a memberof the fellowship.
I have had a similar experience to post #72 since I joined in my ‘tender’ early twenties. My reasons for still remaining a member are informed by many single ( and singular) experiences which have remained with me -all of which are in every respect perfectly subjective: I once looked over at Robert Burton and realised that I did not understand all that he was saying but that he would not intentionally mislead me! I realize that maybe I’m comfortably brainwashed (Or maybe I don’t)! This ‘truth’ remains with me as a key ‘experience’ despite many subsequent eathquakes (some predictable but mostly not).
I openly share this ludicrous example not for the convincing strength of its clear truth but because there are no facts that I can present, even to myself, that can justify why I remain. My heart leads and my head (sometimes and not necessarily often) follows. But clearly there is more than a little belief within me that I am gaining ‘something’ in my continued partcipation. The converse truth, though hard for me to consider after so many years, can only lead to a conclusion that I leave for others of a more balanced disposition.
The other experiences are very distinct to the extent that they are countable and in the same degree meaningless to mention here. Nonetheless they are as real to me as the pain in my back as I write this longer than expected reply.
Having said this I have personally seen the mess that remains from some of the lives that have flown too close to his sun. These latter experiences have left me broken hearted and immensly confused since some were my closest friends and in my eyes very sincere ‘seekers’. No ratonalization by myself, or others that I have spoken with, has ever been enabled me to understand or condone the the things that I have personally experienced -some of which have been mentioned in posts on this ‘forum’.
Also there is a part of me that is wary of things that are said by or on behalf of Robert Burton; things that I do not hear directly myself or simply for which I do not understand the reasoning.
Clearly there is much peer pressure to go along with the crowd: in any goup. ‘Outsider’ thinking is not necessarily popular.
I have stubbornly stuck to my belief that my life remain informed by my own experiences even when they do not follow the line with anything approaching precision the teaching that Robert Burton presents……and that may be a failing on my part.
As I have said I am still a member and a future ‘former member’. Maybe it will be next week, next year etc., etc. Yet I applaud all who follow what ther common sense tells them and wish all who leave or stay the greatest luck.
I think that if you are to get anything useful from this discussion, or any other group that you participate in, let your past and current experiences gather and speak for whatever you call yourself -and have the courage to be that.
I hope that it is clear that this is no apology for the fellowship it certainly has many flaws considering any of the facts and perspectives presented on these pages. This may simply be another means of justifying my situation but let that be for me to wrestle with.
Congratulations to those that have moved and move on.
February 14, 2007 at 1:05 pm
I consider myself incredibly lucky that I could have been a part of the creation of this board. I am so glad that so many people decided to be honest and share some of their life stories with the rest of us. I sincerely believe that to someone seeking higher truths, the many personal recollections posted here, could be of great value.
I have been wondering though, taking into account how large the FOF is, that there doesn’t seem to be a support group for the leaving members. There must be more ex-members now than there are members and the life-changing decision that many of you have already taken is being faced by many new people. It seems to me that the hardest part of leaving the FOF is the social seclusion and the loss of prior friends. Wouldn’t a support group of some sort make the decision to leave so much more easier and less painful? A lot of you have left their e-mail addresses in here, it wouldn’t take that much work between you to put something like that into motion. I know very little of the Fellowship and have even less time but I am sure that if you took it as a collective effort, it wouldn’t be quite so hard.
February 14, 2007 at 7:59 pm
Dear Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion,
Something very different is happening now. Those who are leaving are doing so with joy, freedom and a great sense of relief.
And in spite of the traditional shunning of former members many of these people are choosing to stay in the area.
Being shunned by members of an organization that one has clearly understood to be delusional and corrupt has little significance, in fact seems almost pathetic if not ridiculous.
This new understanding is creating an alternative community of open minded people who can provide encouragement to those on the edge and still afraid to leave.
February 14, 2007 at 8:45 pm
The Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion has an interesting idea. A support group for former fof’ers. How about an ‘internet school’ made up
of former fof’ers. “I,d join. we could recognize each other by hints of memory. Do you remember Stella a jovial machine or Miles a saturn/mars machine. How about Walter or Joel advanced in knowledge those two.
Well, how about a third political party {moderate} by design. It’s platform based on the reverse side of the Great Seal of the United
States.
Speaking about a Protestant church in Philadelphia said, “The design of the building not bein to accommodate any particular sect, but the inhabitants in general; so that even if the Mufti of Constantiople were to send a missionary to preach Mohemmedanism to us, he would find a
pulpit at his service”.
“Peace,commerse, and honest friendship with all nations, entangling alliances with none” Thomas Jefferson’s foreign policy.
February 15, 2007 at 2:10 am
I would like to offer a few thoughts on what attracts and keeps people within the Fellowship. Many who read the negative posts and read all the negative material out there on the web regarding Burton’s sexual activities might begin to wonder how otherwise intelligent and well meaning people could stay involved in such a group for so long a time.
The moderator comments in the original post that even he had to admit that some members had that certain “it” of a serious student. This also was my experience. I knew from my first meeting that there were people in the Fellowship that were further along than I was. That alone was reason enough for me to join. The idea of a Teacher, or Robert Burton, or any aspect of the third line was not there in the beginning. The Fellowship when I joined was rich with people, the kind of people I simply wanted to be around.
The Fourth Way and Robert’s vision of the role of the Fellowship in civilization both encompass large and lofty scaled ideas. In light of such scale, the individual is diminished. It is stated that the System could never become popular because of this espoused negative truth. The system dictates that few can escape. (Personally not many years of self observation and observation of others did it takes to convince me that this is true.) There is a logic that because of the scale of the enterprise that though one might not make it (in this lifetime) that it was worth the endeavor to contribute to the whole for a chance in the next lifetime. Speaking generally, there was so much other stuff in one’s Fellowship life to digest and to keep one busy that it was not difficult to “compartmentalize” Robert and his behaviors from the larger picture.
I think it is safe to say that Robert’s sexual activities are troublesome for most members…. besides one assumes that Gurdieff himself was sexually active with students. Older male students (myself included) would even joke (buffer) “It could be worse, Robert could be after the women!!” But the scale of the big picture makes it easy to put these bothersome thoughts aside. One was always cautious not to throw out the baby out with the bathwater.
Getting caught up in the third line was easy to do, especially if one witnessed the changes from the humble beginnings of living in tents to what is seen today in Oregon House. Robert is into building a new civilization and implicit in this is that it will cost a lot of money. The system attracts good householders….. tramp has little chance to survive in any fourth way venture…. again not a popular idea for many. Again the individuals who for whatever reason can’t handle the psychological and financial demands eventually eliminate themselves. So though it is not openly spoken of, there can be a self-imposed stigma on leaving the organization. I really don’t think sincere current members “judge” former members. There is the idea that one’s life is a “play” and a real student is well aware that anything could lie also in their future. .
Members are accused of being elitist and over intellectual. For the most part this is not true. It’s a very large organization, and like any large organization you have the whole spectrum. I can say that many members who still make up the backbone of the organization are serious students and are sincerely trying to find their way as we all are. And that is why it is always difficult to leave…. not so much because of Robert, but because of them.
February 15, 2007 at 2:19 am
Thanks again to the Sheik for providing the format.
February 15, 2007 at 8:01 pm
“I” would like to correct something i wrote on post #92. The first quote belongs to Benjamin Franklin. Was’t Benjamin Franklin one of Robert’s 44 angels?
For me the Fourth Way means Eternal Truth given to Earth {us} for our time through Gudjieff/Ouspensky.
Rodney Collin’s book, “The Theory of Celestial Influence” was my primer read in the early 70’s.
It was an “I” opener. I joined the FOF and was
expelled for breaking a house rule. I refused
to tell my side of the incident. However, the door was left open for a fee/fine of $2,500.00
I left San Francisco and walked around convinced
Dante’s Inferno was my destiny. Another of
Robert’s 44 angels.
Rodney Collin said it’s better to be in a group
3rd line of work, but it doesnt mean to be doomed.
February 15, 2007 at 10:39 pm
“Not one.” That’s the phrase that keeps ringing through my mind. You see, everything we saw was to be justified by the fact that we were a school for creating conscious beings, whatever one of those might be. The creation of a conscious being was such a signal event in the history of mankind that it justified the corruption, the “fallen soldiers” along the way, and the crazed power trips we saw among the leadership. It exonerated everything we ourselves were doing and what we tolerated around us. It justified the broken hearts, broken marriages, broken families, and broken friendships.
But there were no conscious beings. Not one. So that means there was nothing to justify what happened among us, no great offsetting benefits. Instead, we are left with our complicity – our complicity with those who had breakdowns and were taken away, the children who were neglected or shipped off to be raised with others, the spouses who were divorced because they never joined or left the Fellowship or simply weren’t up to the speed of our accelerated evolution, the parents who died without a visit from us because, after all, that’s how Robert behaved when his mother died. And of course, for the debauching of the young men recruited for the “Inner Circle.”
Bedouin is right, of course. “They” did not do this to “us” – in fact, we all did it to each other. Everyone who placed bookmarks, attended prospective student meetings, directed a center, counseled others who were having doubts to stay, kowtowed to alleged “older students,” led meetings, and cut off our friends as they finally left – and that pretty much includes all of us – bears some responsibility for the organization and it’s effects on people’s lives. Individual responsibility? Sure. But you are not an “innocent” if you saw the robbery take place and walked away. We are all, jointly, responsible for what we saw – and for what we averted our faces from.
Now, as more and more people are becoming aware of the failed promise of higher beings emerging among us, not to mention a “new civilization,” we are using a new buffer, the equivalent of Dodo’s verdict in Alice in Wonderland’s Caucus Race: “All have won, and all shall have prizes!” The reasoning: It’s not important whether anyone is conscious as long as we are all a little bit more conscious. But, after all, if I were going to a school for learning the violin – wouldn’t you expect to see someone graduating who was a musician? Wouldn’t it say something about the school that no one successfully learned to play? Especially when you saw the star pupils played clumsily and off-key, and couldn’t read music. Or if you were told, after learning only learning two notes a year under this system, “See? Don’t you know more music than you did a year ago?” Yes, true. But wouldn’t you be suspicious of that reasoning, knowing that you’ll never learn to play that way?
Towards the end of his life, Ouspensky said of the System, “We tried it, and found it not to work.” Maybe there wasn’t any hidden meaning. Maybe he knew what he was about and meant what he said.
February 15, 2007 at 10:41 pm
It feels a bit like we were going into a car dealership to buy a car. But instead of being shown cars, the salesman sent out the dancing girls to entertain us. As we protested that we were here to buy a station wagon, they send out the flame-swallowers, then the acrobats. Everyone – the collection of people who previously come to buy a car, that is — turns to us and says, “But isn’t it a great show?” Yes, it’s a great show, you admit – it created memory and you’ll never forget it. But you wanted a car. Then they send out the belly-dancers, and you get up to leave. You see around you people who have long since forgotten they came for a car, because they are having the time of their lives. Nobody can afford a car anymore – they spent the money on raffle tickets, and paying for more entertainment. They tell you, “Don’t leave, they are bringing out the popcorn soon!” The entertainment is great … but you’ll never get a car here. You begin to suspect they have no cars to sell. And everything you see is meant to distract you from that simple fact, with a constantly shape-shifting of the organization’s story and its rationale for being.
February 16, 2007 at 2:16 am
Beautifully said, Deeply Dissillusioned!
I would add, if you suddenly remember that you came here for a car, and start asking questions about cars – people report your strange behavior to the bouncers, and you get a call from Kevin, and get a boot!
It’s not about cars, not about your aims to wake up – it’s the Show! In the tent! Show must go on. Watch the pictures and listen to stories about them. Fun!
Who cares about cars?
February 16, 2007 at 8:10 am
Hi ALL,
thanks for speaking up!
I’d like to offer a few thoughts.
1.Who said that fof didn’t produce any enlightened beings? If somebody said that, how did they know? How would YOU recognise an awakened man? Obviously, he can not be a copy of RB. What if somebody woke up and just quietly (or loudly) left the fof? (or was asked to leave?) Or remained (quietly) sitting under a rose bush somewhere close to YOU? Just wandering…
2. So, anybody at “the fof show” still wants a car? You are free to go look for one. Nobody locks you up in fof. Please, recognise this fact. Your FEAR might keep you in. Worth a whole new discussion – how to overcome fear. Is there a devil outside the fof gate waiting for you to grab your soul and drag it to hell? Another issue is TRUST – how do you trust yourself when you see a naked king while everybody else (is it really “everybody”?) admire his clothes? How to trust yourself to recognise that you are not finding what YOU need? How to recognise ones need by knowing it directly, not because somebody (authority) told one, what is the best for them? The good old 4th way school asked it’s students to verify everything for themselves… So, look in your garage, maybe you have a couple of cars there already, and all you need to do is to start driving them. Every day a little further to regain confidence. Recognise what you have learned, give yourself a credit and move on. What we have learned in the fof remains as part of our being.
3. In the Alchemical process one starts with gold to create gold. We start with awareness to recognise the awareness. “Functions” can not “create the soul”, – the sould already exists. Then, what is awakening? Consciousness, aware of itself? What if awakening is not a “big bang” in the “third eye” with fireworks of applauds from the crowd of followers, but a quiet recognition of the truth that awareness was there first all the time? There are many myths about “awakening” and I suspect we have to discover the truth by experiencing it. And experience is a very subjective thing.
4. Is Bush a complete representation of the USA? FOF is not only RB. What is more powerful – to march against the war in Iraq or to teach children about Middle Eastern cultures? Look into the Law of Attraction – http://abraham-hicks.com – whatever you push against comes more into your experience, because you give it your attention/energy. It is very powerful – to know what you want (as opposed to what you don’t want). There are people in the fof who might come for the show, who need it and enjoy it. Maybe they are glad to pay for their tickets! Or happy to have a chance to show up on the stage next to the star! And there are still sincere students, those for who “the sequence” works… Bless them and bless their work.
I hope this makes sense. I keep looking… for thruth.
February 16, 2007 at 6:26 pm
A question for Deeply Disillusioned (posts 96 and 97):
Why do you stay?
February 16, 2007 at 7:57 pm
In partial response to post 99 by “I keep looking”…
Firstly I have been trying to work out if you are a current student or a very confident ex-student – which are a rare breed.
I say this because what you have to say for the most part contains much truth and wisdom, however I was somewhat struck by the overtly didactic manner in which your dressed your arguments.
There is one small point with which I hope you don’t mind me taking issue. You seem to make a comparison between Bush and Burton by stating that neither of them are representative of those parties / groups they oversee – the USA and FOF and respectfully. But can you use these two figures as a valid comparison?
Okay, however flawed the current Bush regime is, it still operates within a democratic framework, which the FOF certainly does not.
Why not? Because one of the most important contributions to democratic practice has been the development of a system of checks and balances to ensure that political power is dispersed and decentralised. It is a system founded on the deeply held belief that government is best when its potential for abuse is curbed and when it is held as close to the people as possible.
Checks and balances has two meanings: federalism and separation of powers.
The US is a federal republic with states that have their own legal standing and authority independent of the federal government. This often can be messy but federalism does maximise opportunities for the citizen involvement so vital to the functioning of democratic society.
More relevant to possible is its second sense, checks and balances refer to the separation of powers that the framers of the American Constitution in 1789 so painstakingly established to ensure that political power would not be concentrated within a single branch of the national government. James Madison, perhaps the central figure in the drafting of the Constitution and later fourth president of the United States, wrote: (and this is the important bit!) “THE ACCUMULATION OF ALL POWERS, LEGISLATIVE, EXECUTIVE, AND JUDICIARY, IN THE SAME HANDS…MAY JUSTLY BE PRONOUNCED THE VERY DEFINITION OF TYRANNY.”
Need I say more? (in fact I only said part of this, the rest I needed to research.)
However, I will say that from my own experience I see the FOF is synonymous with Burton. He has all but highjacked the Fourth Way (or bits of it) for his own purposes, then added a generous dose of his own makings.
Just as some argue that Paul highjacked Christ’s teaching to create what we now call Christianity – when it should rightly be called Paulianity!
As many of you have discovered there is very little room to express independent thought or explore “radical” ideas without contracting a “B influence virus” (what a great term – I’m surprised I’m still breathing!)
I know some of you may take issue with this point, but just like there student police (the Linda’s on the look out for rogue viruses), there are also “thought” police – a little more difficult to detect perhaps.
I am not suggesting it is wrong to make something one’s own, it fact I would encourage it – we all have to eventually – like Burton. But I do feel it’s important to keep the spirit of the “Work” forever present – try not to lose sight of it. We joined the FOF to partake of the Forth Way – so surely we must continually evaluate that for ourselves and not necessarily rely on other peoples interpretations.
I for one confess, for many years I relied on the Teacher to supply that interpretation for me and as a result when I left the group disappointed, it was not discontentment with the teacher, but the “Work” too.
What the spirit of the “Work” is, only we can answer that as we draw on out experiences, just as time has since made me realise my error and I have gradually been renewing my relationship with some of the fundamental “Work” concepts which excited so many years ago.
One recent example springs to mind: Magnetic centre! Someone reminded me of this term a few months back. I seemed to have completely erased it from my memory. In fact it was a shock to hear it. Not only did it feel like an old friend, but it seemed to be invested with a new, magic quality. But I can’t become excited about having a magnetic centre, surely? I mean that was the first thing you dropped when you joined a school…
Well, whatever the case, I feel it is back and alive again – even if there is something different about it. Whereas before, it was seemingly all over the place, I definitely detect it now has a centre within MY “Work” (the efforts which comprise my daily life and the opportunities that arise).
Can’t think of anything to say about cars I’m afraid. Only keep your eyes on the road.
February 16, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Whether one is bounced out or bounced around, when you bounce up and are sill facing the work then you are in the fourth way. The school is invisible.
February 16, 2007 at 11:46 pm
P.S. With reference to post 101. Apologies regarding some of the spelling & grammatical errors. I was sure I checked it!
Somin
February 17, 2007 at 5:34 am
“Judge them by their fruits”- sad Jesus 2000 years ago about the false profits and teachers.
What are those fruits of Berton’s work?
Suicides,depressions,financial disasters,broken families,psychological traumas…The list is long and does not look positive at all.
Are those are attributes of Love?
What sad St.Paul about Love? “All knowledge worth nothing without Love”..
And I don’t think he spoke about “Sequence”,but what he mentioned was a REAL knowledge which even that worth nothing without Love..
February 17, 2007 at 1:18 pm
The Fellowship doesn’t exist.
I’ve been in it for 24 years.
I walk in and out freely.
I pay as little as possible and steal as much as I can – because I am hungry.
I give what I get openly.
Friendship lasts as long as it does.
I dress like a princess, drive an old clunker, pick my nose and surround myself with flowers.
Stay away from sharks because they have sharp teeth.
Eat apples because they’re delicious.
There is no me.
I love you anyway.
-RainBo
February 17, 2007 at 4:24 pm
What is riskier than wasting sexual energy like a nymphomanic? Talking bad about the “work”.
The gnashing of teeth and confusion of tongues is a real “state”.
February 17, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Hi Dear Sheik
Ahhh it feels so good to express negativity about Rb/FOF/44/SEQ, thank you, thank you.
This is “real” entertainment; it beats Art impressions, Literature, Music or a walk in nature. It even beats Hollywood TV. Staring at a screen all day long complaining about FOF/RB/44/Seq.
Why do we stop there, let’s go after Gurdjieff/Ouspansky, after all they started the all mess. “Awakening”, “The Work”, no we want to be negative and complain.
Wait a minute, we can also go after our parents and former childhood teachers, don’t they also share the responsibility for our misfortune and injustices. After all we wanted to be a Superman/woman with fame and money.
Ahhhh it feels so good to express negativity, it is addictive.
We don’t even have to be accountable, and we can keep changing names all the time. What an entertainment. What fun,
Life is beautiful.
February 17, 2007 at 7:03 pm
This is the first blog I’ve ever posted to and probably will be my only contribution. My husband told me about it and I read parts and skipped over the long sex/money tirades.
As a former(20)year member, the last year of which I stayed in to observe the “cult” during 1998 and more importantly in my private way say goodbye to my friends and community, I just want to say that I’ve run the gamut of thinking “evil” to “sublime” about FOF and Robert and now understand that I attracted the circumstances I needed. My advice is don’t throw out what you truly learned, acknowledge what it gave or didn’t give and just move right along if it is your time. Graduation comes when it does. Don’t make a new identity in being anti or for FOF. Seek professional help if you were damaged.
There is a wonderful support network out here – the true friendships you made in FOF will revive like perfect flowers and give you much joy and surprises. Use the Nevada City/Grass Valley directory for those names you recognize.
Much love to you all… in or out or fence sitters …..R
February 17, 2007 at 7:09 pm
Hello to everyone.
Former student (comment 107): Do you really feel that much negativity in here? I don’t. On the contrary I feel a lot of positivity and hope from the vast majority of the contributors. I think that most of them are beyond throwing blame around, I belive that their goal is to spread a simple warning. By the way, have you really taken the time to read all the 100 comments on the site?
As to posting under various names, well, usually it’s quite obvious and adds to the comedy. I have started deleting comments that are irrelevant to the topic at hand. I will not delete any criticism aimed at me, the blog, the FOF, the critics of FOF, or anything else for that matter, but please do not test my patience with advertisements and repetition of stale abuse (Kiran, X-man). I actually take the effort to read everything that’s posted.
Just in case you were wondering, there are roughly 150 – 300 visitors a day to this thread, most of whom are unique (1st time visitors).
February 17, 2007 at 8:54 pm
I have to congratulate you, Sheik. You are obviously a perceptive and open minded person, as it’s no mean task maintaining a discussion board such at this.
Just as the person in post 108 remarked that she had: “…run the gamut of thinking “evil” to “sublime” about FOF and Robert” (and she came across as being quite grounded), you are inevitably going to get student’s, ex-students or “no students” expressing all manner of thoughts and emotions. From pure negativity (which is understandable when someone feels they have been unjustly treated or hurt), to words of simple warning, as you say.
There will also be some useful and positive pointers for those who are searching to attempt to understand what has happened / is happening and where to turn to next on their path. A vital part of the healing / understanding process is having the opportunity to express those pent up feelings – to coax them out of the shadows where they often sit and fester. Then who knows where a response will come from? Yes, some of what has been said is little more than a tirade, but who hasn’t felt angry at some time?
I continue to read what has been said and in turn post to this board because I feel their is a genuine thread of sincerity running through (most of) it. I certainly agree with the Sheik there is much that is positive to be found. Whereas I have learnt a great deal in my years away from the FOF, I am certainly not past learning and see the whole process as one of “give” and “take” in an impartial environment, such as this board provides .
For this reason I extend my sincere thanks to all contributors (whoever you are!)
Simon
February 17, 2007 at 8:58 pm
Dear Sheik,
I am wondering if it is possible to create some kind of pagination. As the comments increase it takes longer and longer to scroll down to the most recent.
Thanks for making this forum possible.
February 17, 2007 at 10:01 pm
This board exists and thrives just because it is (obviously) needed and supported and serves people in many different ways. Thanks again, Sheik for making it happen.
It seem to serve many purposes, not just one. I don’t think it’s just negativity – this is quite a black and white vision if one sees only negativity here.
For some, definitely – it’s venting their frustration and anger – which is fine, if it needs to be vented. Nice to have a place for this.
For some it’s sharing their experience, as objective as possible, which may help others to decide whether or not to join/stay in FOF.
For some students who feel stuck inside FOF, confused and and scared – it’s a promise of hope that other things are possible and life goes on just fine after Fellowship, with lots of friends around, actually doing interesting thihgs together.
For others who discovered something spiritually meaningful outside of FOF – it’s a place to tell other friends about it.
And some FOF members which are perfectly happy where they are – for them this board means nothing, in fact it’s probably better not to waste time reading this stuff. It can strengthen the beliefs, it can enrage, or it can disillusion. And it’s all good.
An old student told me once very sincerely – relating to the present form of Roberts teaching: ” We never had it this good!”
Well, why would anyone want to take away the joy from this person’s life? It’s just unnecessary and cruel. He is having the time of his life, it’s full of meaning and hope, and he is on the right path.
People should enjoy themselves, and let others enjoy themselves. Life is about living it with joy. There is no right or wrong, it’s all relative. “My” path is as right as “your” path. All paths lead to one beautiful place. It’s nice to have fun! Under different names, too. Definitely more fun than TV.
It’s all an illusion anyway… Take it easy.
February 17, 2007 at 10:02 pm
Well, hello, whoever you all are. And why the anonymity I wonder? Being clued in to this blog site was a considerable surprise, but when I think about it, I suppose the creation of such a forum was more or less inevitable. This posting goes against a resolve (not the first time a resolving ‘I’ has been shouted down by others you will understand) that I once made, which was that, should I ever leave the Fellowship, I would not invest any energy into being a former member. Well, I mainly miss all the e-mails about who was selling their car and who was needing an au pair and who was frantically looking for a job and how to buy a bookmark or an auction ticket.
I have no particularly dramatic tale to tell. The process of my leaving was like a door very slowly swinging shut over a period of years, and it finally just gently clicked and was closed. I had such amazing wonder-filled experiences during my 30 years in the Fellowship that I am overwhelmed with gratitude for the incredible opportunities my membership provided me. However, I gradually became more and more ashamed of myself for so cynically taking advantage of an organization that I originally had imagined would assist me to become a finer and higher sort of human. In brief, the travel was great, the friends much greater, the genuine art and culture top of the line. Alas, in the finer-and-higher department I was only becoming more and more crabby and less and less able to conceal it and conform to the requirement of being nice. Too bad.
Thank you all for providing something to waste time with besides car ads. And a hug, Susan Zannos
February 17, 2007 at 11:45 pm
My regrets.
February 18, 2007 at 12:06 am
As a postscript Sheik. It would not surprise me if this message board got tampered with at some time or other. There is some quite inflammatory material here – at least I could imagine it would be uncomfortable reading to a certain handful of devotees. From my experience there are powerful forces – and I’m not talking about higher forces – but certain persons in power who might be requested / or take it upon themselves to make your board become a little less visible.
On the other hand maybe it’s the last vestiges of my paranoia revealing itself.
Simon
February 18, 2007 at 1:53 am
Vena (post 111): I am afraid that at the moment I really don’t know how to change the oder of the posts. I’ll research it tomorrow and try to do something about it.
Simon (post 115): I am equally paranoid and have been receiving some rather strange e-mails in the past. Not to mention that the blog vanished from google for a while. For that reason I have been saving all the comments and if anything was to happen to the blog, I would simply repost it all somewhere else. You can’t stop the flow of information.
February 18, 2007 at 3:57 am
Hi Sheik
You said that there is no negativity in the posting towards RB/FOF/44/SEQ.
You started criticizing the Fellowship. You have never joined the organization but concluded that the FOF is a cult. You also have never met Robert but concluded that he is a manipulator. You warned people not to join the FOF because there is other and better “REAL Schools” but failed to mention the names of those schools. You said that there are many people who managed great things alone. Who are those people and where do they live? Please give us examples.
There are few concepts that you might need a school to understand and verify: one is that we are many I’s the second is that 99% of the time we are in “Imagination”. All that Robert said throughout the years is “BE PRESENT”. When we verify these things then we might have a chance to have a real discussion.
You also wrote about “things” that are not allowed in the FOF such as books not related to the “4th Way” where in reality right now they are encouraged not to read “4th Way related books. The form of the FOF keeps changing all the time. Otherwise it will be just like any other religion, Ice crystallized. One of the main reason students leave the FOF, is because they cannot adjust to the new form as it changes.
February 18, 2007 at 8:58 am
“I have received thousands of letters from all over the world asking why I do not speak out in public against this man. But I will not, as it is not my way. The man is a criminal. You have to understand this very clearly. What he is doing to people in the name of spirituality is criminal. One must never give to another human being — and he is simply a human being — your ultimate manifestation of consciousness, which is your ability to make decisions for yourself. You have made a great mistake in giving him that power for … years, but understand this: no man has power except the power his followers give him. That is why he needs people around him all the time, and the more the better.”
— Krishnamurti on Bhagwan Shree Rajneesh, early 1980s
February 18, 2007 at 3:05 pm
Balancing the Scale (post 117): It has been my intention for the past 3 or 4 months not to take part in the discussion, for the reasons that you mentioned. I have not been a member of the FOF and all I had to make up my opinion from was my short visit, the information I found on the internet and what ex-members told me. I do not feel that I have the right to judge anyone or flaunt my opinion around. I have been more than happy to learn from people who knew more than me.
As to the other schools? There are dozens of Fourth Way groups, much smaller and more personal than the FOF. There are dozens of different strands of knowledge that seek the same answers as Gurdjieff/Ouspensky – be it in religion (Buddhism, Sufism), mysticism (theosophy, anthroposophy), occultism (Crowley), psychology (transpersonal psychology). There are so many different things to learn and so many different explanations for the same thing that it shakes my brain every time I think about it. I have not studied the Fourth Way, I’ll be the first one to admit, but I am aware that Gurdjieff was accused of borrowing a lot of his teachings from the Sufis, the Christians and the Buddhists, wasn’t he? Doesn’t that mean that the same knowledge will also be available from those sources?
As to the great people, hmmm. I believe that the most important realization that I ever made in my life was that I should only receive the things that I no longer want. People who feel the need for a Teacher will inevitably be controlled by him and will have to fight hard to win their freedom back. It’s inevitable. Anyone who enters a school with the belief that it is the only place for him to learn, the only way for him to succeed (awaken), will inevitably put more trust into the school than into himself.
I sincerely believe that the only source of truth and happiness is in every each one of us. A Teacher may help you realize this. The great people who have helped me grow as a human being and realize more of my potential have been my partner, my closest friend, my friends, my enemies and all the strangers I have ever met. Those who have truly touched me are Jung, Crowley, Grof, Buddha and numerous others.
And I would like to point out that ‘be present’ is not a unique concept, it is almost too similar to the Buddhist concept of mindfulness. I can assure you that the techniques to practice and learn mindfulness are readily available.
I am glad to hear that the FOF keeps on changing, change is good. But as far as I know, members still have to pay 10% or more of their income to the school and Burton still lives the same lifestyle as he used to. That is enough for me to be highly skeptical of the the potential for positive change that the school can produce in its members. But then again, I have never been a member.
February 18, 2007 at 6:41 pm
“The form of the FOF keeps changing all the time” {post 117}.Abandon the system Ouspenski tells Collin. Whether its Christianity, sufi, Buddhist or any other “system” things become mecanical after awhile. Keep going without contradictions.
February 18, 2007 at 7:32 pm
To Balancing the Scale…having been a member for over 15 years, I can assure you the FOF is a cult. A lovely cult for many aspects, but a mind controlling cult all the same.
Why don’t you sign your name to what you write? Are you fearful of what might happen to you if the group leaders find that you have been participating in this conversation?
How can you judge the host of this sight for criticizing, when you are criticizing those of us who have left?
Leaving takes courage and a great deal of help from above. Yes, “THE GODS” still love us and if you ever open your eyes to the silliness of the form and teachings of the FOF, and decide to leave, we ex-FOFers will probably still love you.
Now put that in your pipe and smoke it.
February 18, 2007 at 7:33 pm
Balancing the scale said: There are few concepts that you might need a school to understand and verify: one is we are many I’s, the second is that 99% of the time we are in “Imagination”.
Well, it was believed for quite some time… It was even “verified” by some I’s… And then it was clearly realized that WE are actually not many I’s… And not any particular I. Many I’s are just what they are exactly – many I’s. Thought images. If WE were them, then – which one are you? Which one do you end up trusting? Which I’s are actually – you? The “good ones”? And who decides? Another I? Or, may be, another person’s I? Or – Teacher’s I’s? Is his I’s real, which are the also just thought images of his mind? Oh, may be mature “Steward” decides which I to pick… And who is he? Another I, another mental image, another concept?
You see, how incomplete and contradictory this picture is. It is based on confused identity. WE are not many I’s. WE are – in which they appear, actual alive consciousness that watches them come and go. WE are not many I’s, and never been… Trusting I’s and taking them to be you, even when they are labeled as ” holy work I’s” or I’s from the Steward or from the Teacher – is simply looking in wrong direction and making simple things complicated and confused. We are not the I’s, any I’s. We are consciousness. Any I’s can appear in it – it doesn’t matter, because consciousness is not affected by I’s.
You may have heard it before. But then – what do you do? Continue taking yourself to be I’s and keep “working on oneself”. Believe that you are a “doer” and “decider”. It’s like a dog biting it’s own tail – has no meaning, leads nowhere…
As for the phrase “we are in imagination – again, who are these ‘we’? Do you just repeat what you heard for 20 years, or you try to look for yourself. So many people in the school just repeat stuff without even trying to actually give it an honest look…
The “we” that are lost in imagination 99 percent of the time- you mean, we, those many I’s. And what is imagination – even more I’s? OK, so we, the many I’s are lost in many more I’s for 99% of the time… And then some of these I’s (good ones) are trying to work on other I’s (bad ones). When they are not lost…
And it was said to us that I’s are not real… So, in 1% of time an unreal works on unreal to create something real… You’ve done it for how many years? And you paid how much? Doesn’t it look like something is not quite right with the whole picture? Take a look!
“All that Robert said throughout the years is “BE PRESENT”. ” – Well, he said many different things over the years, but never mind. So, “be present”, but to WHOM it is adressed? To your many I’s that you take yourself to be? How can many I’s be present? How can any I be present? Even the “good work I’s” – they come and go, don’t they… They are passing mental images, fantoms, how can anything permanent be built on this. Look. Can you build consciousness out of I’s? Build real out of unreal…
Although he said “be present” – but for the consciousness, that we truly are, it is not needed. Consciousness is always present and aware, without the need to be told so. It is present in you now. It is reading these words now. It is always alive and vibrant. You’ve tasted it, you’ve had many beautiful moments. But your I’s always claimed it as their achievement and it was (seemingly) lost.
And “you-the many I’s” will never be present, no matter how hard you try. I’s will come and go, and if we place our identity in them – confusion will continue, so will the “efforts” and trying to create consciousness out of I’s…
We are simply not the I’s, and have never been the I’s. Ouridentity got misplaced. We are – in what I’s happen, what watches the I’s, and what doesn’t need to become anything… It is, already.
“When we verify these things then we might have a chance to have a real discussion.” – Absolutely. In fact, when it happens there may be no need for any discussion anymore, we’ll just have a big good laugh together.
February 18, 2007 at 8:27 pm
There are two fundamental assumptions in the FoF that enable members to justify Burton’s extraordinarily weird behaviour, and also make it difficult to leave:
1. Burton is a “conscious being”
2. The FoF is the only “real school” in existence.
The conscious being concept derives from the Fourth Way. A conscious being is supposed to be continuously in a “higher state”. Most of us have experienced these states from time to time, where we’re very intensely and emotionally in the present and/or we have strong perceptions about the nature of reality, kind of like an LSD trip. Most of us joined the FoF in the hope we would become “awakened” in the sense that we would be permanently in this kind of state. Unfortunately, this doesn’t seem to be possible. I’ve never met anyone who was permanently in a higher state. This includes Burton. He puts on a good show in public, but behind the scenes he’s just an ordinary person like you or I, only considerably stranger in his personal habits. It’s very very difficult for FoF true believers to see that Robert is not a conscious being. His “consciousness” is used to justify his behaviour, which in anyone else would be considered unacceptable: “He’s free from the normal laws governing mankind” etc. Without this belief in his higher consciousness, the whole pack of cards collapses.
Burton states that the FoF is the only real school. Fortunately it’s easy to verify that this is not true. There are many “teachers” all around the world who convey spiritual truths much more simply and effectively than Burton.
If you’re in the FoF and you have questions about it, I strongly recommend having a look outside. There’s a wonderful world out here!
February 18, 2007 at 8:39 pm
Hello all, After twenty some years I left the Fellowship and returned and then left again, and having been on both sides of the fence a couple of times I have learned that there is little room or energy or reason for being judgmental. I can only suggest at least reading the introduction to The Theory of Celestial Influence by Rodney Collins. In very few words he sums things up very well…. especially the part where he concludes that only within an individual can seemingly contradictory methods of knowing be reconciled. Warm regards to all. Ralph
February 18, 2007 at 9:25 pm
Well, OK, so I’m settling cozily into the role of former student, which confirms what Balancing the Scale mentioned relating to our understanding about the many ‘I’s. It’s ironic that the Fellowship is credited as somehow being a “cult for intellectuals” when one would look far to find any group that is more determinedly anti-intellectual or less tolerant of the pleasures of kicking ideas around just because it’s fun.
A century and more ago, Emile Durkheim, an atheist black sheep from a family of devout French Jews and the man credited as being the father of sociology, listed four functions that he observed religion served in human societies:
disciplinary, cohesive, vitalizing, and euphoric. I stumbled upon Durkheim in an Anthropology course I’m taking. I was struck with admiration at realizing how thoroughly the Fellowship fulfills all of these functions.
Disciplinary it certainly is. Consider only the dining exercises and associate on from there to the astonishing detail and depth of this function. Cohesive it is indeed, with the admirably developed us-them chasm between shippers and “life.”
But it is Durkheim’s other two functions that are even more interesting: Vitalizing! This is really amazing! How hard and long and consistently members work, physically work! The commutes to distant cities to pursue lucrative careers, the dishes to wash, the petunias to prune, the tables to serve, the vegetables to chop…And then there’s the euphoric. Well, euphoria is difficult to discuss, but we all have ample experience with what we are pleased to call “higher states” to be in any doubt about them, whether or not they are created by Robert’s tossing dinner rolls about the room.
All in all I feel quite dim witted to realize that Durkheim explained all this so accurately over a century ago and I’m just starting to see how it all works. And then there’s the next question: Why are human beings hard-wired to need this? And where does one find it after arriving at the conclusion that the wizard behind the curtain is completely looney tunes?
February 18, 2007 at 9:39 pm
I have followed this site since it’s inception mostly to see if I could locate former friends from the FOF. I have remained fairly detached from what has been said, I witnessed or heard much of it from my time in the FOF back in the 70’s. There is little new here, just more particulars. I was however touched by the words of Deeply Disillusioned and can only offer these thoughts. When I became disillussioned about the FOF, I began a serious effort to separate the ideas of the system, the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, from the ideas of the FOF and Robert Burton, and from this separation was able to make the system my own. The system does work and Ouspensky’s repudiation of it was done to help free his pupils from attachment to him and his exposition of the ideas. He never promised that we would become conscious, he said that if we worked, we would begin to see ourselves as we are and if we begin to see ourselves,just maybe we would find the motivation to work for personal change and we might figure out for ourselves what efforts we need to make.
Someone in the 70’s, it might have been Harold Wirk, began tracking the attrition rate of the FOF and said that it seemed to be about 50% per year. When I left in 1979 there were more than 2000 members. At a 50% drop out rate that means that more than 30,000 people have been through the FOF mill. But it is only the most current group of true believers that are told that they are the chosen ones from all of humanity to lead the new civilization into the future, they are the only ones who will become conscious (maybe not in this lifetime but eventually as long as you never leave) and Robert Burton is the only one that can get them there. This was the “group think” that motivated me to leave. There is hope, truth and real life outside of the fellowship, good luck.
February 18, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Please, let’s not be rude to anyone. I welcome everyone’s input — students, ex-students, auditors.
February 18, 2007 at 11:17 pm
David,
Funny, your question (#100) sounds like so many students, who, when you ask painful questions they can’t answer, burst out, “Why don’t you just leave!”
It’s a particularly cruel and heartless question — even if blurted when they are cornered — because the sad truth is, most of us CAN’T leave, at least not immediately. So it’s a bit like jeering at a cripple because he can’t dance.
Every time we have had questions in the past, we were told that the answer was to invest more heavily in the Fellowship: make a bigger donation, remarry, build a big house near the property, direct a center, serve at the Galleria, wash dishes for the fundraising dinner — et cetera, et cetera.
So now when the questions have hit a critical mass, we find we are enmeshed in the nets we have created. All our friends are Fellowship students. We work for a Fellowship student or employ Fellowship students, we have children in the Fellowship school who are deeply embedded in their friendships and community, we have a husband or wife who doesn’t (yet) share our thinking, or our children have joined the Fellowship. It takes time and care to disentangle oneself without ripping up our lives yet again (most of us have done it several times already in the name of the “Work”), and ripping up the lives of people we care for, many of whom (i.e., the children) are the victims of our decision-making.
Our cars are repaired by students, our hair is cut by students, our plumbing is fixed by students, often at discount rates we couldn’t afford if we had to leave this charmed circle. Our houses are built by students, or rented from students. For many, that makes it hard to leave without leaving the community, and many can’t afford the deposit on an apartment in Sacramento, or even Grass Valley.
Oh yes, a huge sub-category is those who gave it all up to move to Isis, especially for the 1998 prediction, who no longer have any resources to leave. Interestingly, the wave of recent departures consisted largely of people who own their own homes and have some financial independence. For the most part, the people “on salary” aren’t leaving. They can’t afford to ask questions. They are living on substandard wages, stringing out their existence month to month. Many of them count on the Fellowship for their visas.
It takes years, in many cases, to untwist all this stuff from your DNA. So it’s a bit odd when someone says, as a friend did recently, “They just drift away!” As if they became vaporous or hypnotized, and wander into the woods, never to be seen again.
No. They are rebuilding their lives so that they can HAVE choices again. They are reconnecting with old business acquaintances, sending out resumes, househunting, renewing old friendships. After offending and alienating their “life” families for many years, they are making amends, hat in hand. They are building bridges before they saw off the one they are currently standing on. That takes time, attention, and effort. You have no idea how much — especially for people in their 40s, 50s, and 60s who are having to admit they made a big mistake and start over.
If we could “just leave,” of course, people would accuse us of being “in the queens.” So they have us both ways. But if we have spent 10, 20, or 30 years in the Fellowship, it stands to reason it will take a few years to get out. After all, this is the philosophy we had subscribed to heavily. “Leaving” is a slow intellectual process as well, of asking questions, initially resisting the obvious answers, and then coming to see what we had buffered was, in fact, the truth. It was in front of our faces lo these many years.
There’s remorse, too, for the cold way we treated those who said, years ago, the same things we are saying now. Were they (gulp) right all along? We remember the people we cut off, whose phone calls we no longer returned. In many cases, we criticized or defamed them. They were in their “king of clubs”, we said — not like us! (And whose side was the king of clubs on — those who were risking everything to start over, or those who chose to squelch the uncomfortable questions so they can maintain a comfortable, if colorful, inertia?)
The ex-students have a joke, you know:
Q: What is the difference between a student and an ex-student?
A: Time.
You’ll find that the exit from the Fellowship isn’t a door — it’s a journey.
February 19, 2007 at 12:10 am
I’m a new contributor to this blog (or any blog for that matter). I’m writing to express an insight I’ve had about what keeps students in the Fellowship who sense that it may be time to leave. If you are in the school and feel stuck, I hope you will find this helpful. And if you’ve already left, I would be interested in your response to this post. First, some personal context:
I joined the Fellowship when I was 24 years old and was a devoted member for 22 years. I left a little over a year ago. During my time in the school I lived in various parts of the world to support its centers. Eventually I opened and directed two of them. I also lived at Renaissance/Apollo/Isis for 12 years. I worked in the vineyard, landscaping, and the winery, regularly gave angles at meetings (even led a couple), and participated in the performing arts. I also answered the Fellowship’s 800# for a couple of years, did tons of research for the Galleria meetings, and was a member of the Fellowship Council for a while.
Through all these years of effort, I would from time to time become disappointed with my progress toward awakening and would think about leaving the school. Then I would begin to feel disturbed about the Teacher’s personal life. What kept me in was always some version of this thought: “The reason you haven’t awakened yet isn’t because there’s something wrong with the school or the Teacher, it’s because you haven’t made enough efforts, haven’t made enough use of the opportunities that the school provides for working on yourself. After all, how can a ‘sleeping machine’ such as you know what’s right in regard to awakening, or for that matter, in regard to a conscious being’s private life?”
About 4 years ago I became disappointed again and gave myself the same answer as usual. But this time I decided that I was through with the school trying so hard to wake me up and with me failing both it and myself. I proceeded to make efforts as never before, increasing my volunteer community service to as much as 70 hours a week (which often meant only 4 or 5 hours of sleep at night), and amassing a sizable credit card debt in order to attend every meeting with the Teacher and many of the other events (including the international meetings in Greece and Egypt).
After a few years of this, the day came when I took a look at my progress toward awakening and once again felt disappointed. States? yes. Understandings? yes. Awakening? still far away (similar to post #88). This time, however, there was no doubt in my mind that I really had done all I could with the opportunities provided by the school. Why wasn’t it working? I had to admit to myself that my failure to awaken wasn’t my fault; for the first time, I wondered if it might be the school that was failing me (as in post #96). In terms of the car-in-the-garage analogy from a couple of days ago, I peeked in my garage and found a car there (thanks for those images, post #’s 97 & 99.)
I still had to deal with thoughts like, “If you’re asleep, how can you know what the problem is or whose fault it is?” But luckily, enough of a ray of light had entered my awareness that I began to realize something new. It was not so much about the school itself, as about the fourth way in general. And what follows is I hope a useful response to David’s post #66 (which brought up the point about the fourth way being introduced as only fragments).
The fourth way, as presented in Gurdjieff’s and Ouspensky’s books, the can’t work. Why not? Because it is based on selfishness. Just look at the language: “self-remembering,” “self-observation,” “becoming immortal within the limits of the solar system,” etc. Because of this selfishness, one will always get in one’s own way. Ego can’t awaken. “Trying to awaken” is a Tantalus-game (so beware of fourth way ideas, post #101).
In the end I had to cut deeper than the school in order to get out of it– I had to find a way out of the fourth way.
I just read Keith’s post #126 about the fourth way working, and, I’m wondering, Keith, how does it work for you? Do you believe that you have “awakened”? If you’ve found it to be useful in some way, I’d really like to hear about your experience.
I appreciate very much those of you who have mentioned that resisting evil only makes it stronger. Whether it be an esoteric school, a spiritual teacher, or certain posts on this blog, challenging it only makes it bigger in your mind. As the Buddha said, “Hate never yet dispelled hate, only love dispels hate, this is the eternal law.”
Thanks too to those of us who have pointed out that it may me right for some to stay in the school for example in post #’s 108 & 112, and in particular to Ellen of post # 50 who seems to be a living example of that.
Also, someone in this blog mentioned that there are those who, though they see that the school is not what it purports to be, stay in it anyway in order to help others who are suffering there. I have heard that about some current members and was glad to hear of it again here. It sounds heroic.
And as to the pursuit of awakening, to which so many of us have dedicated a great deal of time and energy, I have been helped by something else the Buddha said: “If a man thinks he has attained Enlightenment, he has deceived himself, although he may be moving in that direction.” A contemporary spiritual teacher helped me understand this when he said, “It’s not you that wakes up; it’s reality that wakes up, the truth wakes up. You are not enlightened, enlightenment is enlightened.”
I agree with our host, the “Sheik,” who wrote earlier today that, “the only source of truth and happiness is in every each one of us.” Expanding on this, I’ve learned that everything and everyone you perceive and experience is you. So, if you think the fellowship is a cult, or evil, that’s you, and if you think it’s something else, that’s you too. Reality is all coming from you.
During the past year since I left the school I’ve learned from a number of spiritual teachers and they all seem to have one common thread of truth running between them. It is that you already have all truth, beauty, wisdom and consciousness. Just relax, practice stilling your mind (and, as post #60 says, “trust your heart”).
And to post #54, you won’t be harmed if you leave. The truth is that nothing can really harm you. Deep inside yourself, you know that.
To you and to Susan of post #125, here’s my advice: just sit quietly for a little while today, say half an hour, and let yourself be without your worries, thoughts and emotions. You will rediscover peace and truth. For a little while, let yourself be just your awareness – that’s the real you.
February 19, 2007 at 12:13 am
One of the reasons for such a confusion in FOF is that Berton’s “teaching” is based on very ancient and powerful ideas which make it all harder to separate between the “old” real and “new” false.The idea of been present is a fundamental idea which penetrates and unifies all other traditions of all times.But FOF is not unique.Many other cults had walked same way.They took some fundamental principles from oldest teachings known or unknown and simply added up to it of their own so it looks like a new teaching but in fact it looks like a dog with a fifth leg.Yes,one can say “Well,the dog with the fifth leg is an evolved dog and is probably on its 9th life time.This dog is completing its role as a simple dog and is already begin to transform to a new dog, a Conscious dog of the new Civilization”-but honestly,deep down we all know what this creature truly means.
February 19, 2007 at 2:28 am
Dears – well here I am posting again – so full of contradictions – thanks Walt – as are we all. Hello to Amy and Susan, Felipe and Kiran, William and Keith – all of whom may not remember me. If this bloggy thing becomes just a way for those who have already left to meet in cyber space I suggest we just get together sometime and speed along the processing? Remember the Process of Digestion – it is necessary for most of us?
I’m not sure about “Deeply Disillusioned”, who may be a devil’s advocate. (Apologies if you are not a DA, DD.) However, Stephen I’ve never seen anyone be persuaded out of FOF – generally it’s a slow drift like Susan said or a sudden AH AH or a great belly roll laugh or “oh my god – this was great in the beginning but now I’m trapped- I’ve been asleep for 15 years”. All work!
There is a lovely story – from the Hindu tradition – in which a well meaning man comes to his Swami/Guru and says ” I’ve found out how to rid the world of poverty”. Thinking he’ll get a positive response he waits…….waiting…..The Swami pauses a split second and then says: “my friend, this world is governed by the laws of Karma – since when did God give you the right to change it?”
OK OK I hear your groans! Those for whom “Thy Will Be Done” is living in your hearts – you will get it. For Deeply Disillusioned – please own up to your fear, trust in God/your Self – “God living within you as You” as Swami Muktananda so beautifully said, and miracles will happen. Paradoxically I always admired Nicholas S who seemed to be able to get more from FOF than ever existed in my imagination. Love to you Nick.
Anyway, this is fun guessing who you are. And PS – I’ve not heard of Advaita Buddhism? – Advaita Hinduism or Vedantism perhaps? Still – a rose .. a rose…my loves, my Self,
Rachel
February 19, 2007 at 1:12 pm
On the subject of leaving the FOF. Would anyone in their right mind choose to be separated from their adopted family, established friends, spouse, even children all in one fell swoop?
Well I reached a point where I HAD to and my God it was one of the most painful and lowest points in my life. Leaving the FOF isn’t a decision – one becomes hemmed into a corner, it becomes a matter of life and death.
This sounds dramatic I know, but I speak as someone who desperately wanted the system to work and continually gave it the benefit of the doubt under Burton’s jurisdiction.
So yes, students will leave when they have to leave, until then they will be making efforts to awaken and/or justify their existence in group.
No, you can’t tell someone to leave. But for those who have left are and are wondering where to go next – well, that’s why we are here isn’t it? Our stories may be different, but they will be striving toward a similiar outcome.
Best wishes to you all,
Simon
February 19, 2007 at 10:41 pm
Greetings and Salutations:
Hello Susan and Simon, brava e bravo!!
Ralph, God love you….
Good to see FOF has not entirely damaged what is real in oneself, hence the search continues because we must.
As for those still in prison, searching for their former friends who have left, well, guess you were not much of a friend to begin with…
One’s being attracts one’s life, for some of us that meant having to leave because our level of being won out over the false personalities that I believe was cultivated in that group.
I will always recall one teacher I was with who said, when asked why he talked about various paths but would not endorse any, “You are free to choose the kind of stupid you wish to be.”
Ciao 4 Now
February 20, 2007 at 12:53 am
Thank you to Phillip for reminding us to go back to the stillness inside. xxoo
February 20, 2007 at 2:23 am
Dear Deeply:
It wasn’t meant as a cruel question (the limitations of a computer for communicating…). I think you and I have more in common than you suspect. I am currently a resident at Isis, moved there in 97, after many years abroad, etc. etc. For me, too, the ties that keep me around are emotional and instinctive, and the idea of walking away is very frightening — when a fruit is finally ripe, it will fall. But I think one thing I am gaining from this time is compassion, less judgement, hope, and confidence in my work (although the definition of that is changing rapidly). Good luck to you.
February 20, 2007 at 2:37 am
Are we still influenced by the moon? I must be.
Post 125: “The wizard behind the curtain is completely loony toones”? Post 133: “You are FREE to choose the kind of stupid you wish to be”.
One read in the morning and the other in the evening. Laughed all day long. Thanks!
February 20, 2007 at 4:57 am
David,
Absolutely no offence taken. I know you did not mean it “that way”.
February 20, 2007 at 6:00 am
Keith Says:
February 18th, 2007 at 9:39 pm
I began a serious effort to separate the ideas of the system, the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, from the ideas of the FOF and Robert Burton, and from this separation was able to make the system my own. The system does work…
My friend:
There is no “system”.
Gurdjieff set up an experiment. Ouspensky codified it and taught it because he could not work with G. That is why it does not work. (except in one’s imagination. Ta-da!!)
February 20, 2007 at 3:06 pm
There are two people in charge of this blog: me and the Monochromatic Knight. We both moderate the comments that come through but the last one (signed by Asaf) must have slipped through our net. We will not tolerate obscenities and therefore, the comment will be deleted.
I received two e-mails defending Asaf’s name and stating that the real Asaf would have never written anything quite so obscene. Please do remember that all you need to change your identity on this blog is to type in a different name. Unless people provide their e-mails and you have the chance to make sure they are who they say they are, they may be anyone.
February 20, 2007 at 3:47 pm
I’m sure it must have occurred to many of us that RB is simply not an adept teacher. (Didn’t he start out as a grade school or kindergarten teacher and later a tennis pro?) I found he could take me a certain way and then I simply had to graduate myself to be free of feminine dominance and the pull of the dependency on the Father figure.
It eventually became clear that only the lovely community and the King of Clubs were keeping me in the School. My true nature could no longer be kept down without seriously undermining what had brought me to the School in the beginning. There was no choice but to leave.
I’m a slow learner – at first I needed a kindergarden teacher but later didn’t.
February 20, 2007 at 4:52 pm
The discussion about whether the system works or not is really moot.
The Buddha, who was a reluctant Master teacher and of course not a “Buddhist”, codified his understandings in the Noble 8 Fold Path.
However he made it clear that the teachings should be likened to a boat. You use the boat until you have crossed the river – then it is a bit idiotic to continue carrying the boat around.
February 20, 2007 at 5:32 pm
‘No person’ said that the “observing I” is just an ‘I’ like all the many I’s, on one level it is true.
Wine and vinegar are the same substance. A stone and a flower are the same impression. It is just semantics.
February 20, 2007 at 5:59 pm
So Robert keeps changing the System – now the Sequence. Beware my friends – it’s all part of the great Show which must go on.
Towards the end of my 19 years in FOF I became a better predictor of Robert’s behavior than he was with his predictions. I knew without a shadow of a doubt that if California didn’t fall into the ocean in 1998 he would rescind the sex exercise. This was the best and easiest way to keep the party going. It was our longest standing exercise, since the inception of the School I believe. (I was a student with Stella and Harold Wirk way back when.)
Marx was only partially right – sex/ religion is the opiate of the people.
Having lost track a while back of where FOF is now, it would be mildly interesting to plot the exercise changes and against name changes of Mount Carmel/Renaissance/Apollo, Isis and the reinventing of FOF.
I’d encourage people sitting on the sidelines of this blog to contribute – this is a Kairos time in FOF. Watch those parts of yourself that censor your contributions – too negative, too whiny, too preachy, too vain, too whatever. Give all of your 10 contradictory angles C – rejoice in our diversity – our big Play of Leela.
FOF will end when Robert dies and no one has the being to hold all the snakes. I eventually was able to thank Robert for the love he gave me. I was a neurotic fearful person on entry to FOF and emerged different.
February 20, 2007 at 6:34 pm
What teachings? What boat??
Swim, you idiot!!
February 20, 2007 at 8:31 pm
I have only two months experience using a computer. I know and understand very little.
About a month ago and out of curiousity I typed in Gurdjieff. I was “shocked” to find FOF listed among the many sites. I wasted little time clicking everything connected to FOF. I was shock to find Stella Wirk deceased and even more “shocked” to read about Robert the TEACHER.
in 1979 I was told by a fellow student that G. Haven called and wanted to speak to me in person.
In addition to the phone message his aside was that G.Haven does not make personal calls and that something is happening, and a further aside he said,”I know what’s going on around here”.
I went to see G.Haven and he said, “so and so accused you of such and such”. I thought , “a fabricated doublecross”. But, I said, whatever so and so said it’s true”. He said, “I” don’t want you sleeping in the parks but you have 24 hours to leave”.
So now 22 years later I’m reding on the internet abouyt a fifthy joke. All these years of pain for nothing. There were times I would think about FOF and tears would well up in my eyes, or a thought about FOF would be followed by another thought, “don’t go there” Whoever said in one of the posts about unwinding the FOF DNA can say it again.
February 21, 2007 at 2:06 am
Somehow I feel I want to tell my ‘story’. The story of my leaving, what I have found since I left, and what I see looking back and reflecting.
My wife (Rachel the Friendly Ghost who posted here) left the school a couple of years before me. I was soldiering on with no reason to leave. However, she starting attending the local Vipassana meditation sitting group, and I started to tag along out of curiosity. What impressed me most was the people in the sitting group who seemed to have spontaneously learned things from their practice which I had to have been taught (verbally or through books) in the Fellowship. How did they do this just by sitting on a cushion?
In the Fellowship I had been duped into believing that we were the only people really committed to awakening – what a lie I soon found this to be. And of course there is a partial truth there. From the outside, what others on a spiritual path find and admire is the dedication and commitment of Fellowship students, it is a genuine strength – but one I now realize needs to balanced with others….
The Vipassana group in Nevada City is led (if you can call it that, heh-heh) by a wonderful teacher called John Travis. His being, maturity, and crazy wisdom has been very helpful for a number of students leaving FOF. And through John and the local Sangha I found my way to Spirit Rock for longer meditation retreats.
I found the combination of sitting practice and walking practice to be personally very productive. I had deep experiences of being present and in the moment. I realized that the Fellowship had become empty and meaningless for me and that the traditional, well-trodden, Buddhist path was alive and vivid for me. So I left the Fellowship, with no feelings of negativity to towards it. In fact as I left, I found Love and Gratitude in my Heart towards Robert.
Subsequently my view has changed, but I’ll get to that in a bit. Hey, I found that outside the Fellowship you could have lots of teachers, no problem. No ‘fanatical devotion to the pope and the inquisition’ to mis-quote Mr. Monty Python. I visited Gangha Ji and Adyashanti. Both highly recommended by me. I realized that I had hit a wall in the Fellowship with my development. And my response had been: effort, effort, more effort. I realized I had been beating myself up for my failure to awaken, and (similar to another posting on this thread) the reason I was still asleep was lack of effort. Now, with the fresh air of the outside world, I saw that one obstacle was too much effort. That efforting was getting me nowhere. So I relaxed. And learned that instead of trying to actively take in impressions and try to penetrate the moment, you could just relax and open to the present. I still cannot tell if this obstacle of mine was my subjective mis-interpretation of the 4th Way, or a more common phenomena inherent in the teaching or its presentation.
But did I really stop efforting? Well no, Can’t turn a workaholic into a loafer that easily. But more seriously, there is something in the soul that draws one to the Way, no matter how one wriggles and tries to pretend it is not there or ignores it. Something leading you on, and so much wiser than you think you are. After leaving FOF, I never wanted to join another thing. After 22 years in FOF I had enough with Schools and Organizations. Been there. Done That. But what happened was an FOF member in the process of leaving the school called us up. I knew who she was, but not very well at all. Anyway, she needed a little temporary help to set herself up on leaving and my wife and I were very willing to render assistance. I think she stayed over a couple of nights, and we gave her a small loan, which she diligently repaid over the months. She had been caught in the ‘FOF poverty trap’. That is you use your savings to visit the center of the school where the teacher lives, and then you go on ‘salary’, which is more like a subsistence allowance except for a privileged few. However both the ordinary and the privileged get into a position of dependency on the organization. No longer is it just a means for personal growth/evolution but also the source of one’s livelihood. Never my personal situation, but a very sticky situation for those in those circumstances.
So that dear sweet soul who visited us, also mentioned to me about another teacher who she considered 4th Way, although he probably does not. Abbreviating details Inow find myself (to my surprise) in the midst of another school: I am in Diamond Heart Six taught by Hameed Ali (aka A H Almaas) and Karen Johnson (not the FOF KJ of same name). Besides the inherent differences in the logos of the teachings, there are some comparisons which I think point to deficiencies (from my perspective) in what I now think of the as the FOF Cult.
First FOF is or has become a cult. It is a cult around the personality of the Teacher. Personality is not a good word, since it is an admixture of charisma, personal power, and also genuine consciousness and self-realization. That is what makes it all so tricky – there is the genuine article in there, but it is coming in an impure form. And from reading some of the posts here, this impurity ranges from the quirky to the corrupt. But besides the unhealthy fascination of all focused on the wonderfulness of not of RB, there are the other aspects of it being a cult, such as the fear instilled in its members for leaving – where they fear loosing their connection with divinity in one manifestation or another. Also while being members, they are exploited one way or another for the teacher’s benefit wrapped in the envelope of it being for the good of all. My personal experience was not one of abuse, or corruption, or much exploitation beyond the payment of very high fees. But it is uncomfortable for me to know I turned a blind eye and a deaf ear to stories of what was happening to others. For me it was a magic carpet ride. For others, it was not.
Secondly, it perturbs me that the Teacher lacked valuation for Truth. It seems to me that for him Truth was secondary to the creation of states in his students. So that truth became malleable, and lost its essential purity. So lies and deception were OK if it was for a good cause. But more importantly, it leads to a path of Delusion. I believe the teacher was (is?) deluded by voices he hears or the interpretations (omens) he places on the events of life. His divination into the meaning of events can be seen as one of his powerful Gifts – but judging by the fruits of 30 years – may more indicate that the subtle and profound energies in which I presume he is immersed – have partially driven him into a world of fantasy which he takes as Reality.
The third point I would like to make, is that it seems to me that Robert lacks the Pearl of Personal Essence. I am a person myself who is not really qualified to prognosticate on what I only dimly glimpse myself – but also it seems incumbent in the experiences I have and who I am now to try.
It is all to do with the maturation of the soul and the integration of realization into one’s personal being. This is where the flaws in RB’s behavior show up. Using powers of seduction is not OK for a Teacher taking on the role as a proxy for God and strongly influencing the lives of others.
Overall, it strikes me now how impersonal RB’s teaching was. For all the 22 years I was in the FOF, having roles of medium responsibility, and diligently acting as a server at the table where he taught – how little actual contact or teaching I received from him. (This is in comparison to the access provided by other Teacher’s mentioned above). It is clear that impersonalness is not unique to RB. Teacher’s become more or less realized – and some teach from the point of view that “this worked for me so it should work for you”. This is a one size fits all impersonal teaching and is additionally congruent with a view of reality which focuses on emptiness, and no-self. Does the method work? I don’t know. I would presume it can and does. There are other ways which are much more personal and attuned to the individual and their state of development. But the impression I am left with is that part of Robert’s impersonalness is that he just did not care about his students as people other than as a means of keeping the structures of the school alive. He saw them as machines with many I’s – and so for me he and his teaching repressed individuality, love of truth, curiosity, genuine seeking and longing, and personal strength. He was not interested in me, and had little to actually offer me. So is this sour grapes? Well yes? But what I realize now, I did not realize then.
So here we are now. I believe that the FOF with Robert as it’s teacher is still a vehicle for personal growth and transformation. Is it a real teaching? I still don’t know. I thought it was. Is it an effective/optimizing teaching? More and more I begin to think no. So caveat emptor. It is so easy to project the ideals that are within oneself onto some external parent figure, and perceive oneself as unworthy and lacking. Too easy to then become dependant or at best a follower. But please do not be deceived into thinking it is the one true way. While cloistered in FOF I was unaware of the great burgeoning of awakening that is happening on this planet. There are so many people involved and so much really does work.
May All Being Be Happy. May All Beings Be Free.
David
February 21, 2007 at 5:11 am
To RIP: You’re so right about the release of sex excercise in 1998 – it was the best and the easiest way to keep the show going. What a smart move -it worked so well. Great way to get everyone distracted and get them busy. All this sex energy, supressed for so long… In fact as I recall, it totally worked for me – I didn’t make a big deal of the fact that “1998” didn’t happen, that California didn’t fall and the Teacher was, well, plain wrong – I was so eager to get in bed with someone I was then madly in love with. I joyfully celebrated the release of the sex excercise and praised Robert for his kindness. Oh yes, the party kept going for me for another 8 years.
And now after seeing so many people leaving recently, Robert tried this : “Those who stay are true Inner Circle Students.”
Brilliant move! Now, dare to say something after this. Here’s some heavy duty feminine dominance to work with.
So, the party will keep going again, and this time only for “true Inner Circle heroes”. They will not mind that the Sequence (honestly) doesn’t work, that they are still negative and miserable most of the time, and none of this teaching really seems to work no matter how much they pay or what they do… Because now they are promoted to the Inner Circle by the Teacher himself. It doesn’t get any better than that. It’s going to feel so good, even if one is getting nowhere with his personal work and even kind of knows it… It may even feel better than getting laid back then in 1998… Show will go on. The price for the tickets may go up, too.
February 21, 2007 at 7:52 am
Hi All,
I would like to say hi to friends I haven’t seen for a while and everyone else – those reading and writing.
I left a little more than a year ago. I was a student for ten years and most of that time I spent at Apollo (now Isis). I realize, as I am writing this, that, at least for me, there is no point in trying to have an overall statement about the fellowship.
Although I learned discipline and effort there – leaving was like taking a deep breath after rain in springtime, fresh and revitalizing. From this description, it may seem I had a difficult experience – and I did, but it was not only difficult, there were many precious moments too. But I don’t want to create an image of leaving as if you were going on a vacation: everything doesn’t suddenly become easy, but I trust myself more.
As a student, my favorite quote was from Robert, which said: “The real part of us is strong.” In many ways, perhaps exactly because of the difficulties and crises and being thrown around so many times (not knowing how will I land if at all), many things got left behind – and some of these “many things” were good to discard. However, around the time of processing the idea of leaving, I also saw many new qualities in myself that were not very nice. The idea that “life” is meaningless, that external consideration is there so that basically you can get what you want (States or Stuff), created a well-based sophisticated arrogance … It wasn’t very pretty what was emerging inside of me, and I am talking about things that were not necessarily visible on the outside. My innate happiness was still alive though, and it realized it had been imprisoned and that the simple joy of appreciation of everything was still possible. That others, outside of fof, are not soulless machines, there is something, a seed within everyone that no one can touch.
I have been very grateful for the teachings I came across after leaving. It was a relief to learn that I didn’t have to make up the meaning of life, it’s already within the simplicity of things as they are. Driving on the highway, cars were again just cars, not license plates, grass was grass and all altogether a mystery as well! My relationship with my husband, who also left at the time I did, became not only deeper but gained an additional spark that was often missing while being members.
However, if you are happy within the fof and you really find your path there, I can understand that. I felt deeply committed also … I guess, what is amazing about the fof is that it is so full of contradictions: beauty and at the same time ugly things going on behind the curtains, speaking about Love and being so lonely at the same time, having a teacher that says you cannot wake up this lifetime and you are trying to awake, realizing that most likely he doesn’t care, only if you play an important role, if you are useful to him somehow. Somehow, the heart learns to shut down – and yet, there is much poetry recited about love and sharing.
I don’t want to figure it out and slice it up into little slices, “this is this and that is that,” I only wish let it go. Whatever the fof is or whatever it is that it offers to people, I hope it eventually gives birth to something alive for those who are there. Forgiveness is important, going into war against wars just brings more war – as we can see it happening in the world. Many of us made it out of the fof and we didn’t die, but also there are many who have or had to go through quite immense and unnecessary suffering. Does it have to be this way?
What was the “last straw” for me was when I saw a friend suffering because of R’s treatment. I believed somewhere in my heart that there is simple love and giving, and luckily that childish hope didn’t get swallowed up in “the work.” Leaving, I did find more love and simplicity. Perhaps I had to go through my chosen path of being arrogant, hard on myself, and making constant judgments and evaluations based on the system, which led to being emotionally disconnected – in the name of the “higher.” Even the so-called higher states I see now as turning away from reality.
Similar to the boat analogy, whether that boat was a good idea to get in, I am on the other side of the river now, so goodbye boat. Good luck to all who are still rowing!
Since leaving, I met and have been soaking in other teachings such as Adyashanti’s that are much more simple and joyful. These teachings give you self-confidence … what you are looking for is already yours. You cannot “create” something that is eternally there. These teachings don’t put down others in order to elevate themselves. There is genuine humanness, which is in itself beautiful – and sometimes stupid. We don’t have to pretend being gods. I enjoy walking on earth again and appreciate the soil under my feet. Search and efforts are just like toys.
To those of you who are still members but uncertain about staying or going, I don’t have a message that you should go. When you will be ready (will have the luck, courage, or money) you will leave. But if it hurts, and you cannot go at the moment, at least try to find simplicity within chaos and suffering. Or maybe you are having fun – just remember, there might be people around you who need help.
David mentioned compassion – good news. We all need that.
Love,
Zsuzsa
February 21, 2007 at 8:19 am
Who still does not know that Truth can not be either negative or positive.Truth is simply what is.So why when we speak about Burton’s behavior,to which we are a living daily witnesses, we are been photographed on “gossips” or “been negative towards the Teacher”? Is stating the facts are “been negative”? What is that strange defence mechanism in people that prevents them from seeing things for what they are? What is in people that can twist any thing up side down and cut the Truth to pieces to fit it all in to their limited and acceptable format? What is in those people who are ready to cheat on them self in order to protect the lie of others?
I feel far more compassionate towards those people rather then judgemental.They are a victims of their own illusions.How sad that in deed..
February 21, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Dear David Zsuzsa and Philip
This is not a session with your shrink, this is a serios discussion about “AWAKENING”.
I thought you learnt something about keeping the angles short.
February 21, 2007 at 7:47 pm
Dear Chortle Mortal (post 146) and Zsuza (post 148) – fascinating and interesting posts. You have almost convinced me that my 12 years in the FOF were not all in vain. To know pleasure, one must first learn pain!
Best wishes to you both on your individual journeys,
Simon x
February 21, 2007 at 7:53 pm
Question for the Sheik:
Being the impartial and open minded moderator which you obviously are, do you have any insightful comments about what has been said so far?
February 21, 2007 at 7:55 pm
I appreciated their posts, Balancing, as I have appreciated many of yours.
Your nastiness is uncalled for.
February 21, 2007 at 9:19 pm
Dear Balancing the Scale and all,
I think the size of the angle doesn’t matter… Short is not necessarily meaningful. Long makes for a great interesting reading, I truly enjoy people’s stories. I hope there are more to come.
This Blog is not an FOF meeting, and there are no rules about keeping the angles brief…
About seriousness – you’re joking, right? There is nothing serious about “awakening”, in fact the more seriously it is taken, the more “impossible” it becomes. It is not a matter of discussion, it’s a matter of seeing and recognizing it within yourself. Consciousness is our true nature, and it is childishly playful and vibrant, ever-present, and there is nothing serious or heavy about it. It is alive and present right now, watching the show.
The serious opinionated “person” is an illusion, an imaginary shield, the very thing that obscures the obvious from being seen.
An unquestioned belief in “person” keeps the illusion going, prolongs unnecessary suffering, and creates seeming differences between us as individuums with arguments and judgments to folllow.
“Awakening” – allthough there is no such thing really- happens when the “person” is finally seen as an illusion, an imaginary entity, a mental image of ourselves. We are not that. We are – what sees that.
Once it’s recognized – there is no going back. Illusion disappears.
In a way, it reminds me of those printed image-puzzles, which consist of many small fragments, and you have to kind of cross your eyes in a specific way to see the meaning. You know what I am talking about, right? It took me so long to be able to see what’s in them, and my friends were saying: Come on, it’s easy – just look, just look! Don’t try so hard!
But once you figure out the method of looking – which is kind of like relaxing your eyes – it becomes so easy and every puzzle is immediately seen with no effort. Interestingly, the very first puzzle I saw this way was actually an image of Jesus on the cross…One of those fun twists in the play. (No, I don’t see any hidden meaning in this, and I hope you don’t see one either.)
It is very similar with seeing our true nature – seems so hard, we try this and that, and nothing works. We are about to give up, we are tired. And then suddenly something in us relaxes, and the truth is just seen all by itself, it jumps at you, like the 3D image from the page of the puzzle… It was there always, ever present, we just couldn’t see it.
February 21, 2007 at 9:55 pm
Hello Friends, Old and New,
I am an X Student. I was in the Fellowship for 18 years and left in 2006. It took me a long time to realize that I joined to wake up, yes, and also to be saved — from my messy life, and the terror of finding myself in this really awful situation of being embodied. The Fellowship and Robert saved me – from myself. I needed that, when I was 26. I needed the structure and rules from somewhere outside of myself, to help me learn to say NO to the Wild Child within that had pretty much always been able to get away with everything. I needed someone strong in my life that I would obey without question.
I was saved! My mantra was, “Never give up.” As long as I stayed in the School and never ever left, somehow, some lifetime, I would escape this hell called Life, wake up and get to sit around in a place called Paradise with all of you, for eternity. Thank God, Thank Robert, Thank FOF!
And I came to know where I would die and be buried, and how my funeral would be. I liked to walk up to the cemetary alone and wander through the beautiful, quiet place behind the orchard. Gradually, friends were buried there, and I saw the headstones of JK, MP, RM,PB: They Had Made It! The funerals were one of the most beautiful events we had, weren’t they? We were all so close, close to one another and close to death, it was high and rich and vivid.
It was incredibly comforting to know that as I aged, someone on an octave would bring soup to my home and help me in the bathroom. It was incredibly comforting to know that as I took my last breaths in this lifetime, a circle of old friends would most likely surround me with their presence, poetry, flowers, candlelight. You would come to my funeral and then bury me up there in that lovely cemetary with my friends.
As long as I stayed, I was assured of this salvation. My body would be taken care of,my emotional centre would be surrounded by friends, and my Soul would get to come back to the next lifetime, possibly The Ninth, The One. How irresistable is that?
In addition, the Fellowship was an extraordinary and incredible world.
We could travel and disembark in the middle of Russia/Egypt/Paris/Kiev/ETC, look out and find a Friend, the one possibly holding a work book, but more recognizably, the one with that It-ness that’s been referred to here in the blog. We see one another across the crowded chaotic room, and smile a knowing smile. In the madness of Life, we are present.
I was able to play so many different roles and learn so many different things! I was a vineyard worker, I was a waitress, I was a cook, I was a dishwasher, I was an events planner, a minister, a director, an audience, a producer, a fundraiser, a palm seed planter, a palm tree waterer, a diner, a flower arranger, a teacher, a student, a lover, a friend. and more…don’t we all have these amazing lists and memories of what we did?
I was so busy. There was no room for anything else but the events, meetings, working, meetings, receptions, dinners, octaves upon octaves.
And yes, internally something did change. I developed that It-ness, the “you are what observes, not what is being observed”. At times it was so Here that I thought, “maybe it’s happened…”, and other times it was a distant taste of something that I knew I’d had but couldn’t quite access in that moment.
But over time, I allowed myself to return to some of the questions I had always put away on a shelf, ever since I joined. That it-ness, for example, It had always been with me, it didn’t just happen once I joined FOF. But when I told older students of this Truth, they quoted, “well, Influence C was already working with your grandparents and knew you were coming here.” or, “Yes, but this Way will get you there faster.” Somehow those angles always sounded a bit weird to me, and unsatisfactory.
And Life…as I became less afraid of this Life experience, Life became a wonderful thing. Why is Life a bad word in FOF, I wondered? Is it really true that all of the other people on the entire planet earth are doomed to be driven from vessel to vessel for eternity? That we somehow have a monopoly on consciousness? That we are the only ones who are on a Way? That none of the other 44 seemed to need our particular Way to wake up, but we do?
(There was no real forum to be able to ask those questions, though. If I expressed my doubts or a unique opinion I would most likely receive a photograph. and I did the same to you.)
And about those unspeakable dark shadows, what can I say? Is it really my own limited being, formatory mind, feminine dominance, my King of clubs, my Queen of Hearts…that is disturbed by … what I came to know…? I tried as hard as I possibly could to see it that way, as a limitation of mine, a result of my being under more laws. When I felt the repressed outrage rising, I quickly signed up to attend a dinner, or wash dishes, or go to a meeting. Separate! Be! Do NOT express negative emotions! Don’t gossip! I’m sure if I was there now, I’d be using the Sequence to not allow Those I’s in, to make myself believe that it is okay.
It came down to this:
After 18 years, I am terrified of myself, still. I’m terrified that if I don’t belong to FOF, I am food for the moon, I am a lost Soul, I’m going to hell. I blew it. I’m a spiritual Loser.
It came down to this:
Maybe I’m weak, stuck under too many laws, can’t see as high as my other friends, but it’s very simple…Certain things are not okay with me.
It came down to this:
I must leave to find out who I am on my own, outside of the context of FOF. I need to know who I am if I “give up” instead of clinging and grasping and “never give up.” I need to face my fear, the Fear of me. The terror of being…the horror of not-being, of NO-THING-ness.
I left.
It turns out, for me (and I do not know how it is supposed to turn out, for you…but I do wish for you to really search and really know why you are where you are. And it’s useful to fully understand where you are.), that Leaving is as fundamentally important to my Path as the Joining FOF, and as the Belonging to FOF, phases were.
Leaving is like jumping off of a cliff, it is a death, it is a good-bye. But it turns out I’m jumping into my LIFE, feeling that I actually have two feet on the ground, on my own, I can walk, wow, I can walk! (I wasn’t sure I could)
I spend a lot of time walking on an empty beach and everything is my Teacher, the IT-ness IS, and the NOT-IT-Ness, I’m nothing, and we are all and everything. IT is not dependent on my teaching payment, my hours of FOF first, second and third line.
I entered the terror of my existence and everything is ok. There was this funny feeling in the beginning of living my life, after leaving, when I’d be driving down the road and thought, “Oh, I’m allowed to live my life? I’m allowed to be, here, making my own decisions, allowing the flow of life and the universe to guide me?” and this timid opening that widened into a huge embrace that I’m free. (free of so much…so many complicated unnecessary layers in between). It’s like jumping back up out of the rabbit hole into my life and thunk! Oh, here I am! Here I am, this is the Life I am living! How gorgeous.
I also don’t want to make Leaving sound all glossy and perfect. There was a hard part right near the begining of Leaving where a lot of the repressed stuff came up, and I felt so sick that I wanted to turn myself inside out and scrub the underbelly of every cell. So I did, and now I feel cleaner. (all kinds of methods of scrubbing are possible, from a great sobbing cry to meditation to hysterical laughing to therapy to new guides and friends who gently hold you and let you be)
another hard part is missing my friends who are still there. but it isn’t as tough these days, because so many have left. In the Leaving there is the good-bye but also a long lost “HIIII!!!!” to friends I’d abandoned once in the name of the exercise. they forgave me, they understood, they’d done it too…as I forgive you, now not calling me, I understand, I did it too.
And the new connections and friends are just as IT-tty when we bring our It-ness to our new friendships, that seed within that Zsuzsa spoke of, in all of us, in everything, it can be touched, reached, accessed.
I’m really enjoying being quiet and not busy and not too many gurus or a form, and not in charge of some unbelievable octave and not wondering what else i have to do to get some awakening for me. It’s right here, right now, and it is most abundant when I’m not so obsessed with making it mine. Isn’t that funny? I don’t actually have to push, work, disallow, not express, transform, effort effort effort effort effort myself to being. It’s like what someone said earlier about the Truth, It is, we don’t have to make The Truth into truth.
Whoever you are reading this, X or Current or Never Been FOF Student, I send my love, my smiles…
I’ve been trying to hit the “submit” button now for awhile and … what is that old, familiar, constricted feeling? Oh, that’s it: It’s the fear that grew in me over the years of expressing my own, unique angle. Fear of thinking for myself, standing on my own. Amazing how thick it is, I’m still letting go and giving up, into the layers as they come.
Cheryl
February 21, 2007 at 10:28 pm
Monochromatic knight and Mr.Sheik. I’m sure you both noticed the explosions in posts this month. Whatever it is it needs to come out. I’m loving every day of it even when the negative Lunars, Mercurials and Martial speak out.
I think it was Rodney Collin who said the best place to hide the truth is out in the open. The work language will eventually crumble into the pick-up lines of, “you look like a venus/mercury”.
Maybe we ought to hide the truth more on this blog, thread or whatever it is. The onlookers will think we are all crazy anyway.
Is ‘SEQUENCE’ a work word or is it a Robert word?
February 22, 2007 at 12:44 am
Personally I had no problems with Burton, I enjoyed being in his company. Sexual intimacy never was an issue, perhaps if he had been a she then maybe, or maybe not. I don’t believe that I would have gone to bed with either for a place at his or her table or a first class ticket around the world, nor would it have been a case of kiss and tell. Besides, I have no regret about every dollar given to the Fellowship and Robert, at least I had a great deal of fun, rather him than the bottomless coffers of the tax man.. People seem to have no qualms about handing over 30% + of their annual income to the government, no questions asked, but become hysterical when asked to give 10% of their income to the FOF.
I have, during my stay in the FOF, which lasted nearly two decades, never heard any Student voice the opinion that they had awakened or were conscious. On the contrary, most began to realize their own level of being. Whether Robert was conscious or not wasn’t an issue for me, he provided a theatre, a possibility for experimentation, and to act in a way unfamiliar and challenging to my own mechanics. There may have been some temporary mental detours in some of us, but we tried to view one another with some sense of humour rather than taking the I’s , some of them outrageous, seriously.
As Webb has written in his ‘Harmonious Circle’, there need not be any spiritual arrogance here, nobody can withstand a concerted assault on ones reality and have it rebuilt differently. What is of import is the ability to free yourself again of this new model of reality, in due time, and not remain stuck in it. And that’s the difficulty, because we cling to the familiar and the known. The question remains ‘Who are you?’
Its easy for the ES to shoot off his mouth and play private investigator, discovering the terrible truth behind the FOF, but I am not impressed. What’s the actuality? Instead of ogling the pretty young woman in the meeting, why not ask her out for dinner? Yes, all the I’s of why you shouldn’t, and why bother, and and….. at least you would have done something out of pattern, and you would have, perhaps, found out something about ‘you’. Unless, of course, you already know..
As for Student X and long term student, am I to take you seriously?
February 22, 2007 at 1:42 am
-“Balancing the scale” – you seem a little uptight. As “No Person” said – this is not an FOF meeting with rules and angles handed to you on bits of paper and we are not the Thought Police.
I’d like to respect the sincerity of the people who gave long contributions. Those who leave often have to go through a long process of digestion, elimination, healing and transformation. So, it may be messy and life is too!
Their openness and willingness to let loose seems motivated partly to offer clues about awakening and how they now see it, what worked for them and what they now see as delusion, illusion. Also you may notice they are not hiding who they are, which indicates a greater freedom from fear.
Their thoughts may be long but hey, my goodness, that used to be considered a “good thing” by Ouspensky. I guess that idea got lost somewhere from the System.
February 22, 2007 at 1:49 am
Curious Post (152): I do not consider myself to be impartial, I do not like the Fellowship, that is something I have been very clear about since the beginning. But I do not claim to have the right to flaunt my opinion around, there are others more worthy and more knowledgeable. My only agenda is to share information. I have nothing more to offer.
As to what I think about it all. I am moved by a great many things that I have read, Cheryl’s words moved me today. Others’ have moved me before.
A year ago I felt the need to actively seek enlightenment and so I looked for those who would give it. Today I view such need as incredibly dangerous and it surprises me that so many intelligent people have made the same mistake. I understand the need but I think that there are better places to search and only one with any answers. Awakening/enlightenment, whatever you want to call it, is not for sale. Neither can it be taught. Neither am I sure that Gurdjieff was right, but I’ll only find one way, won’t I? There are no schools, there are no teachers… most of all, there are no Teachers. Yes, there are environments and conditions under which the attainment of certain things becomes easier. There are techniques to attaining higher states of consciousness, there are ways to find more about yourself and there are people who will tell you about them. But no-one will ever take you by the hand and show you the way, it’s not that easy. Some things are not for sale.
And the greatest show of ego is to believe that you are more special than anyone else. That by attaining higher states of consciousness (even to call them ‘higher’) you have transcended your fellow man. We are not special but we are curious, hopefully that counts for something too.
Alexis (157): I was luckier than you think, I never had to play the private investigator and this thread is not an ego trip of mine. I am glad for it, yes, but it came as a complete surprise that it became so popular. Thank you for being a part of its success.
February 22, 2007 at 2:02 am
I have a heavy question for those of you who have left FoF, some of you a number of years ago, some of you a double-digit number of years ago:
If/since you have left…what the hell are you doing still around?
Is the influence/dependency on Fof even stronger and devious then I feared ?
Does it mean that, very much like most of you, if and when I’ll be ready to leave I might find myself 2/15/22 years later still thinking, complaining, reading and writing about FoF ?
Wow, what an additional waste of energy and time. What is it…a need for attention ? Closure ? Revenge ? some regrets, maybe ?
I hope the future will be much more FREE for me after this.
In any case, congratulations for leaving…if you really have ..
(Susan Z…. frumpy before, frumpy after…just work on your alchemy, you are going to be fine; Philip R., vain before, vain after…just work on your ego, you are going to be fine too; Stephen & Tatj…I love you , always, you’ll always be fine…
Truth is, the turmoil is very amusing and the SEQUENCE is one of the best jokes I’ve ever heard; our personal journey and Work doesn’t change; presence is presence, is objective, not even Mr. Burton can misplace it for me.
My real friends are pure, the rest is grotesque; my real friends are my treasure, the rest will go “PUFF”..
I want to see this boat sinking, after all I paid for it, I deserve it !!!!!
Best of luck to everyone.
February 22, 2007 at 10:19 am
It is a blessing to be liberated from one’s fear, which has mainly prevented many from leaving.
It takes great courage from someone who has, over the years, developed the lowest self-esteem possible.
It needs the humility of a saint to withstand the ignore-ence of former close-friends who are still in the fold and pretend you do not exist as they stand toe-to-toe next to you in Bel-Air.
It is a shock not to notice what the vanity plate in front of you is fortelling.
How wonderful to listen to a piece of classical music not composed by Bach or Vivaldi, etc.
And to have all those cards, like Alice experienced, come tumbling down like, well, just a deck of cards.
Rabbit hole indeed.
If the world is lacking in heros, one need not look any further than this blog.
How’s that for emotional?
February 22, 2007 at 3:08 pm
Dear Sheik:
There is an old truism from the Fourth Way that Schools (systems, work, boats,teachers, sequences, meditation) are for those who need them.
You have expressed a sincere need to actively seek enlightenment. As you correctly say there are environments and conditions, which lead to certain results.
Some conditions are sublime abidings. No one can take you all the way, because you eventually have to leap. Teachers can be viewed as guides – those who genuinely want to assist however can see what you need next to realize your realization. So they are not all dangerous.
One reason Adyashanti is so powerful for many sincere seekers is that people from all traditions after 10 to 30 years of striving come to him and say “I’ve failed, I tried my best, I can’t do it anymore” and he says ” Yes, you are right – listen to yourself – YOU can’t do it – that is the Truth. That is always the Truth.
A thread, a key, which has been expressed in so many of these postings can be seen as: relax, surrender, get out of your own way, be quiet, give up, be free of the “doing” illusion, be free of the thought that you are not free, be free of mental constructs, rest in awareness. (Because of the limitation of English these ideas all give the illusion of someone doing.) Realization comes through surrender. ” One day I just relaxed”.
There is a great burgeoning of awakening on the planet. It is indeed a mighty joke from which none are excluded.
February 22, 2007 at 3:30 pm
And PS – enlightenment is actively seeking you!
February 22, 2007 at 6:07 pm
Dear Medusa:
How rude to stay hidden and yet offer personal comments about some of the other contributors. I can only repeat what I said back at posting #158 – it’s messy and the Six Processes are in operation.
Also you may not be aware of how much courage it has taken some of these people to expose their processing.
I think some people see this as an unusually fecund time to help others escape – the Bodhisatava Vow in action. We may not have spoken about this for 10 years but nu is de tijd.
February 22, 2007 at 7:03 pm
Truth Budd – I can’t agree with you more! Beautifully said. Agree with every word.
Dear Medusa – you are right as well. You guessed correctly. And your question is not “heavy”. Of course one cannot just “forget” the experiences of 15-20 intense and bright years, especially in such an unusual setting of a spiritual school – it is just not possible. My first marriage lasted only 3 years, and it took so many years to finally forget and stop revisiting… People are just wired to remember things – there is no way around it. You too probably, will do the same if you ever leave FOF – search google, blog, e-mail… but this is all OK, I honestly do not see anything “bad” about it. We can call it “wasting time”, or we can call any other human activity – wasting time. What is the “meaningful” spending of one’s life when life itself comes to it’s physical end so meaninglessly… Whatever you bought, learned, done, accomplished – all seem to go when body dies. One may think that “creating an immortal soul” is a meaningful activity, until it is seen that there is actually nothing to create and no one to do it… So it turns out to be kind of meaningless too! May be – it’s all not about the meaning?… May be it’s about just living, experiencing, enjoying?
We were told that our”time is limited”. May be it is so limited, that it doesn’t even exist, except as a concept in the mind…
“I hope the future will be much more FREE for me after this.”
I hope with all my heart that you see that there is no “future” and there is no “me”. Both are imaginary ideas. There is just freedom, life, consciousness right here, right now. This is a simple truth. The rest truly doesn’t matter – who does what, how do they appear to express themselves, what’s their alchemy and all this.
This is a complete freedom – from judgment, from hopes/fears for the future, from illusion of “doing” and “choosing”, from questions about meaning, from dividing things into good and bad, and from “personal journey” to some better place.
Me and you appear to have common friends, may be we are all here – friends, just playing against each other for the sake of the discussion game? Hug to you, friend.
February 22, 2007 at 7:59 pm
If #157 is the same Alexis from earlier posts … thank you for slapping your money on the table and joining the game! I appreciated your P.O.V.
February 22, 2007 at 9:13 pm
When I was in FOF and older student offered this angle from Robert, “FOF is harder for those who have experienced the work before (recurrence).
When is the magnetic center formed this time around? At 16 while reading the Republic by Plato and Marcus Aurelius and wondering why neither has influenced adult society?
At 25 while at university studing Shakespeare, Beowulf or “Pilgrim’s Progress”.
At 35 while reading fourth way books and finding FOF? And when is magnetic center no longer needed?
Once the same older student “sensed” that I wouldnt last and gave this off-handed angle,
“As long as you have your books” Meaning I am reading my books until doomsday.
Who was it who said verify everything? When you know you know! And who was it who said, “take the wisdom of the east and the knowledge of the west and then seek”?
Even Lao Tzu needs to be wrapped in your eternal DNA. Rodney Collin said that for those who need help Ouspensky is there for the asking.
February 22, 2007 at 11:39 pm
Wow, what an amazing forum. I joined the FOF in 1981 and left in ’89. I must say I have experienced most of the points of view expressed here at one time or another — from the sincere, enthusiastic new student, to the glassy-eyed fundamentalist parroting Burton’s latest “angles of thought,” to the anguished doubter grappling with “negative attitudes,” to an ex-student who finally had to acknowledge that my so-called false personality was closer to being who I truly was, while my “work I’s” were trying desperately to make me into something I most definitely was not. When I finally was able to make the decision to leave, I felt like Huck Finn when he chose to make the “immoral” decision to help his slave friend Jim to escape, saying “Alright then, I’ll go to hell.” Of course, he wasn’t going to hell for his decision, and neither was I.
Regarding Medusa’s speculation as to whether they will be perusing the Internet years after leaving — maybe you will. Healing is a long, slow process, especially when you’ve opened yourself to the deepest levels of your being the way a sincere student of the fellowship does. It wasn’t until 2001 that I truly came to terms with my experience in the FOF and the 4th Way, when the years of repressed rage came hurtling out. I made contact with some ex-students who had been my friends, and made some new friends via email, creating a little forum of our own. We helped each other (though they mostly helped me), and I remain grateful for that. It was a difficult time for me, as I realized it wasn’t just the FOF that was the problem, but the 4th Way as a whole. It became apparent that, while it was helpful and interesting for a bit in the beginning, it had become little more than a screen of labels that was shielding me from reality. So I removed all “work language” from my thinking. I ripped up my 4th way “work books” and threw them in the garbage — a liberating experience that I still remember fondly. Then something remarkable happened around that time. I understood, and experienced, that you can’t make awakening happen. The harder you work for it, the further away it goes. To break my rule about not using work language (and why not, I don’t live by these silly rules anymore), awakening becomes an “A influence” object of desire. I know others have posted about this experience. I just wanted to throw my own into the ring.
That experience of being “awake” or whatever it was didn’t last forever. But since that time, I’ve been less and less troubled by my time in the FOF — I’ve healed to a large extent.
So why do I read things like this? Oh, I get curious now and then. Call it gossip, schadenfreude, I don’t care. Call me tramp etc. These labels mean nothing to me anymore, though there was a time when they would shoot me through with fear.
Fear — fear of not conforming (it was big even back then), fear of “losing the school,” ad nauseam. Fear is the big one that keeps us a prisoner in something like the FOF.
Thanks for this site.
February 23, 2007 at 12:13 am
I’d like to say something in response to Medusa’s question about why FOF former members still connect with one another and remain interested in the FOF (although I don’t really have anything new to add to No person’s thoughts).
This question/viewpoint reminded me of a thought, maybe criticism, that I had when I was still emotionally involved in the FOF. I wondered, why do these people who were brought together through their interest in the FOF, remain connected even when not in the FOF, I mean, don’t they realize the show’s over?
Well my experience has not been within the confines of that thinking. Realizing that the IN and OUT of the FOF is an illusion that I have the choice to participate in or not, the being NOT IN isn’t a significant attribute, so to speak! In fact the significance of ‘leaving the Fellowship’ for me has been mostly about the freedom resulting from letting go of trying to force things that were untrue to be true, within myself.
In relation to the friendships and connections with others formed whilst in the FOF, I don’t feel much has changed. There are those that I connect with who may or may not be members of the FOF, and those that I perhaps know but don’t really connect with who may or may not be in the FOF. And amongst those that I do connect with there are a number with whom I feel a deep bond, almost like that I feel with family. Many of these people were in the FOF. But this doesn’t surprise me as most of my adult life was experienced within the FOF, and I had so many intimate experiences with others during that time. Now I just wonder how I could not have known how much I care for my friends, and how much I enjoy community, and how I could have believed that it was all about the Fellowship.
Hope these ramblings make sense, and are useful to someone.
Warmly, Sarah
February 23, 2007 at 1:03 am
On a very specific note, in response to Medusa’s rude post: Susan Zannos isn’t frumpy, she’s gorgeous and I have long been attracted to her.
February 23, 2007 at 9:26 am
If anything, this blog is giving people the chance to respond truthfully to each other, something that was not allowed in the FOF as it may have been not politically correct to call SZ frumpy, this being instantly photographed as negative emotion.
So I guess its all right to tell the person who expressed such a thing on this blog that they are an a**hole?
February 23, 2007 at 9:28 am
All is on schedule.
Thanks for the courage to write
Thanks for living the questions
Why this blog is here?….why are you here!
Why is a seed thrown in the soil?
Inquire,
The joy of SHARING,
The JOY of expression, expansion….
Thanks again all of you.
Like being part of a daffodil field.
Each on its own and also together…
February 23, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Hi folks, I’m having one heck of a time trying not to put faces to all these names. I keep telling myself it’s a waste of time, even if it is great fun.
But when it gets to a personal level and we start talking about students who some of us don’t know, never likely to know, or are only guessing at who they might be, then the board starts becoming trivialised and unfruitful.
I now have in my mind this polarised image of Susan Z thanks to Medusa (frumpy) and An Admirer (gorgeious). The former is out of hand, of course and while I side with and respect the latter’s chivalry, such visual opinions still detract from what is most important: being able to read the contents of Susan’s posts (assuming she wrote them!) as objectively as possible.
Incidentally, Medusa, if you think Susan is frumpy, you should seek her out and discuss this with her personally. If you happen to get punched in the face for you pains, I personally won’t be shedding any tears. But then I’ve never given Mesusa a second glance.
Simon.
P.S. Cheryl (post 155), I can relate to most of that (though I wasn’t around for the palm trees). Anyway, I’m glad you hit the “submit” button. I hope you are too.
February 23, 2007 at 5:20 pm
Yes, Simon (# 173), I’m glad I hit the “submit” button, too. Entering the fear melts it into spacious freedom!
I’m also trying to sort out the contradiction I’m feeling re. cruel jabs taken at people here versus freedom of speech…I’m not fond of strict rules anymore yet less fond of stones being thrown out at people from behind a masked voice. hmmm…?….?
I lived with Susan – feared, fought, laughed with her, and I love and respect her tremendously. I was married to Philip -and he is the most tender-hearted, well -meaning person I’ve ever met. They are heroes to me, having given everything they had to give for 25 – 30 + years to FOF, and then taking the plunge into the unknown. Why would anyone want to fling stones at them?
And like Simon says, it does feel trivializing to write these personal comments — but in the spirit of hitting the submit button…
February 23, 2007 at 7:01 pm
I just re-read Cheryl’s post (155), and it really is quite remarkable…and familiar. Though it’s been some time since I’ve felt it, I can remember very clearly what you call that “constricted” feeling that comes when there’s something that’s grown inside us that wants to clamp down on the unsanctioned parts of ourselves…which in the FOF is pretty much everything that makes each of us unique. Of course, didn’t Gurdjieff say that individuality is an illusion, that none of us is unique? Boy, there’s one I wish I would have taken 2 seconds of common sense to verify before swallowing it hook, line and sinker. That brings up another whole topic — how in the FOF you could only verify something to be true. You have either verified an idea, or are waiting to verify an idea. But what happens when you verify an idea to be untrue?
I also remember even after all these years that feeling that a huge burden had been lifted from me when I left — like I had been holding my breath and was finally able to exhale. Robert had some derisive comment about that, saying that of course it feels good to go back to mechanicality — masterful manipulation. I say, if this is wrong, I don’t want to be right!
Some people seem to have an easier time leaving than others. For me, I had to leave internally many times over many years after physically leaving the fellowship. Cheryl, you sound like you’re well on your way to rediscovering the validity of your own life as an individual. Good luck!
February 23, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Ok…sorry Susan, I was out of line. My comment didn’t intend to take anything away from your outstanding inner wealth; besides,it’s just a vessel, it’s not the point, …right “no person”?
(I feel kind of sorry for Philip though, nobody defended him at all !!!).
Anyway, my fears are not about the friends that I’ll hopefully be able to keep or rediscover “after” , but it’s about this ongoing dependency that seems to turn from sweet to sour, from love to hetred, from admiration to criticism ..( you get the point) It changes colors, but nevertheless..it’s there.That Is peculiar.Identification is the same, pretty or ugly, it’s the same..I can see Sara’s point of view , but the truth is that most of the comments, even after many years of disintoxication from FoF, lack of that kind of neutral and detouched tone that makes possible to consider oneself OUT and take it from there.What I’m asking is exactly that…are you really OUT ones you stop being part of the organization? or the grip is stronger then you think?
I’m not arguing…I’m deciding what to do with my life and what to put my family through after 15 years here…; I know it’s only an illusion, but can I at least pretend to prepare myself for it ?…..Thank you for your time
February 23, 2007 at 7:35 pm
By the way, what the heck is “The Sequence”?
February 23, 2007 at 8:40 pm
I’ll defend Philip! He’s a good guy, intelligent and sincere!
Thanks for your resilience, Medusa. People can be more blunt than they mean to be when they are anonymous, and when they are not looking into the eyes of the people they address. Thanks for letting it roll off your back!
February 23, 2007 at 8:55 pm
In response to Medusa’s comment (176), I would say that different people have different experiences leaving the fellowship. Okay, maybe that’s not so helpful, but I’ve seen the whole spectrum, from those who adapted well and quickly to leaving, to those consumed with hatred for Robert and the feeling they were manipulated and spiritually abused, to those who adapted well in the beginning but found out later on they had much deep seated material to work through.
The experience of being in the FOF is not an easy one to unravel, even for the most well adjusted (I’m not). Personally, I go long periods without thinking about it at all, though that took some time to get to that point. Now I just get curious now and again, check in with myself as I look to further decipher my experiences — not just in the FOF but in all the intense experiences in my life. So regarding the FOF, I occasionally look for clues that will help me understand, and feel fortunate when I find them in places like this.
You say you know it’s all an illusion, but, do you really? I don’t. That sounds like FOF robot talk to me — no offence. Let someone hold your head underwater for 60 seconds, then let’s talk about how much of an illusion life is.
You also talk about feeling positively and negatively as though these were bad things — you label them “identification,” then speak as though you can’t be in a right place out of the fellowship unless you are detached and emotionless about what has occurred there. How can you ever feel emotionless about years of experiences that most everyone would agree were some of the most emotional of their lives?
If I could offer some advice — look at things simply…how you feel, what you want, and so on, without thinking you have to diminish or demean these things as part of the “machine,” or dismiss them with other artificial catch-phrases and terms we all learned so well in the FOF.
We are emotional beings, as humans. If anything is an illusion, it’s the idea that we can be detached from our lives — that is, without living in a state of constant repression.
I wish you well, Medusa.
February 23, 2007 at 10:30 pm
“Small is beautiful less is more.
Happiness is found close to the necessities of life, not in needless complexity and meaningless multiplicity of choice”. I think Jacob Needleman owns that one.
This for those who are struggling on the outside. It really isn’t easy when you want to believe with all your being.
February 24, 2007 at 12:27 am
I’ve been reading this Blog now for some time and have been very moved by old friends and new, mostly by the honesty expressed by everyone including frustrations and anger. It’s a breath of fresh air. How unfortunate that this type of discussion must to some extent be covert. Should anyone here wish to contact me, talk or come over to my place for a cup of tea (the British solution to everything) they are welcome – to those living abroad i.e. out of Oregon House, you are still welcome. Come and be honest face to face or ear to ear – speak say what needs to be said. There can be no harm in the sheer delight of being together speaking honestly and sincerely. Also Sheik is there a way for participants to find each others email offline if they should wish to contact a particular person. If this sounds a little silly I’m sorry I’m not that Internet savvy. My sincere heartfelt thanks to all of you, my invitation I know will not be for everyone, but it stands nevertheless.
Stephen
February 24, 2007 at 12:58 am
You know..some of us were not friends before, nor during and most probably nor after, but that’s OK.(Dearest Cheryl, your post was beautiful, you are/have a rich and generous emotional center,on the other hand… I’ll always be a nasty Queen of Clubs, forgive me and don’t take me so seriously,please; maybe we’ll meet again one day…).
If you haven’t harvested nor appreciated anything from the many years you spent working with the system, well, yes…you I’ve wasted your time indeed. The terminology has always helped me to simplify my thoughts, I ‘ll keep on using it for as long as it will be effective.I don’t think that denying what was, at some point, useful is necessary in order to “move on”.
Nostalgic reruns of memories about our painful sacrifices and experiences isn’t either.Blame is ridiculous; pretending a new and miraculous enlightenment to make oneself more comfortable with the inevitable sense of void with the “after life” is only temporary..so, what is left for me to do in order to SUCCESSFULLY “move on” when I get there ?………
February 24, 2007 at 1:54 am
About the sequence:
In 1930, Mr. Ouspensky commented, “I am still certain that there is a great source from which our system has come. Mr. Gurdjieff must have had contact with that source, but I do not believe it was a complete contact. Something is missing, and he
has not been able to find it. If we cannot find it through him, then our only hope is to have a direct contact with the source; our only hope is that the source will seek us
out. That is why I am giving these lectures.”
Five years later, in 1935, Mr. Ouspensky realized that, “Something is missing in the system. If man is meant to remember himself there must have been some simple
method, but it has been lost. I could never find it. Once in India, I heard an echo of such a method. If you find the method you may find the source.”
So Robert found the missing piece. It’s the Sequence! It consists of “6 immortal prescious work I’s”, used in a specific order, like a mantra. It starts with the short “be” and ends with long “be”. You have to say it, intoning it correctly, repeat it, and you’ll be present.
There was also extensive studying of “intoning the sequence”, “anatomy of the sequence”, “turbulence in the sequence”, “guarding long be”, “middle coming” “coming in firmly with be” etc. Prior to this Robert “found” 30 work I’s, lists of which were changed many times before finally he settled on a final version.
“Robert began experimenting with reaching long BE in a few steps and soon after heard a definitive quotation from the Philokalia: “We attain freedom from sin (imagination) in six steps.” He then looked for confirmation of this from other schools and found precisely that. For example, the six-stepped pyramid of Saqquara, the Jewish creation of the world in six days followed by a day of rest, Jesus ascending the mountain after six days and experiencing the transfiguration, and Muhammad
ascending six levels of heaven and reaching the seventh. With this, Robert formulated and refined the sequence.”
Basically, Robert now sees meaning in everything and counts things around him. Numbers game. Students do this too – count words in sentences, objects, people, also notice pyramid shapes in things, and do the sequence.
Hope that helps with your question.
February 24, 2007 at 1:57 pm
All I can say to post 183 is WOW!!!!!!.
February 24, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Medusa —
You have asked several times how to leave the Fellowship SUCCESSFULLY as you put it, but each time people reply with their thoughts and experiences, you reject them, calling the processes they have gone through “useless” and “ridiculous.” Not all blame is illegitimate. Neither is the working through of memories of what happened to us there.
Since you still find the work language useful, how about this — you seem to be looking at the experiences ex-students have gone through — experiences that have created understanding and being — and are attempting to judge that understanding with only your knowledge to go on. Frankly, if you haven’t left, you don’t have any being in this area, and this may be why there is so much frustration on your part at not being able to understand satisfactorily.
Or maybe you are alarmed that you may end up forever complaining about your past in the school — you wrote that above, and it is a legitimate concern. You seem to want someone to offer certainty that you can achieve a perfectly clean break, but I personally don’t think it’s possible. But it’s not as bad as it sounds. For me, when I left it was like work on my “self” was over, while work on my LIFE had just begun. And it was wonderful and maddening and overwhelming at times, but it was also the most FUN I had had in years.
You also seem convinced that writing about our past experiences in the school is a waste of time, but I will say this. For a long time, I thought I was a lone deviant for feeling the way I did about the school and about Robert, and for desperately wanting to leave. When I first heard that others had felt the same way, and gone through the same struggles before and after leaving, it was a wonderful revelation. It made me feel I wasn’t some aberration, a doomed lost soul. From your viewpoint, people writing about their experiences clearly seems self-indulgent, and to some extent maybe it is. But first of all — so what? And second, there’s more to it than that. There is the processing of experience that you dismiss out of hand. And there is also this — that by writing or talking about what happened, you end up helping others who find themselves at that lonely, difficult place — where I fortunately found some very generous people who helped me when I was there myself.
Good luck.
February 24, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Post 183 is rather disturbing. Deep imagination about things that don’t exist and taking things that are irrelevent and making them into a supposed system. And how does this help the soul?? “Numbers game”…counting words, objects, people!
Hopefully 183 is speaking tongue in cheek!
As for “the sequence”…..sad, sad, sad.
February 24, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Actually I can say more. In Mark 7:34 Jesus the Christ says EPHPHATHA which means BE opened.
In the Koran millions of muslims say FATIHAH which means the OPENING. Furthermore, according to Mohemed,”All that is in the REVEALED BOOKS is in the Koran, and all that is in the Koran is in the FATIHAH, and all that is in the FATHIHAH is in Bismi’r-Rahimani ‘r=-Rahim’ and all that is in the Bismi’r….. is in the letter Ba’ which itself is contained in the point that is beneath it'”
This thread/blog is a thread running through all
enlightenments. Those glued to the senses think
Jesus the Christ healed/repaired only ears and tongues.
February 24, 2007 at 8:24 pm
Moonfood,
He was not.
February 24, 2007 at 8:52 pm
It seems to be a pattern with phony teachers that they have to keep coming up with something new to justify their students continuing to pay them. Hence the ever increasing complexity and weirdness of Burton’s teachings, eg “the sequence”. Luckily the absurdity of his teachings is so obvious now that many students are seeing though them – who can take “noticing pyramid shapes in things” (post 183) seriously? In reality everything there is to say about awakening can be said in fifteen minutes or less. It’s very simple and doesn’t change over time.
February 24, 2007 at 9:51 pm
Thank you Another One Post 183 for bringing the subject of the sequence.
The “sequence” and the 30 work I’s are an attempt to summarize, and compact the system, it simplifies and makes it more practical.
The “sequence” makes it possible to engage presence in our daily activities, by following a routine and changing the routine as circumstances change.
The main thing is to practice be-hold-look-back-look-be until it flows naturally.
February 24, 2007 at 9:59 pm
P.S
From another angle it is a new tool, we just need to learn to use the tool in our daily lives.
February 24, 2007 at 10:59 pm
As speaking for my self the “Sequence” is the a most disturbing,most ridicules and shocking nonsense from all that new “teaching” which Robert brings from his expensive trips to Egypt.
Post #183 is truly reflecting a Fellowship’s fanatic view and attitudes.I remember the same passion was around the 44 Conscious Beings.People literally went crazy over that idea.Hundreds of email were created as John44,Marry44,Ivan44…We could see a licence plates such as “I love 44″…And then one day is all gone.Simply disappeared.Like never was before.And then some other thing had replaced that one.The 14 ways to be Present.And then the Holy 30 work I’s.I remember one dinner with Robert when Dorian (his right hand who offered sex for vouchers with married woman’s and who was not punished for that even when the scandal had spreaded out) was showing a pictures which had a gate with some creatures all around it.I set close so I could count them all.There were 28 creatures which I counted 3 times.But for Robert that was 30.
Well,I hope we all understand that a truly objective knowledge is always objective and always is valid.If the idea of 44 was an objective one that how come it had been forgotten and isn’t in use any more? If the “14 ways to be Present” (which is not an entirely new and mostly was taken from different sources) was an objective one then why it does not longer mentioned? Or if none of those ideas are objective then why would we take the farther “teaching” as it is? Who can argue that only few month from now the Sequence will be replaced by some thing else and whats so called a “Holy” now will be buried under thick layer of dust?
Today is the Sequence and every one is going crazy about it.Tomorrow who knows what uncle Burton will be vomiting out but the point to make is that whatever that may be,none of that will bring people closer to them self nor it will open up they mind.The “Doors of Perception” must be open.All lockers has to be firmly removed if man is truly seeking the Truth.No limits or formats are tolerated by a clear heart and a discovering mind.
And why we are “still” here? Because we trusted.Because we opened up and took whatever was given.That’s why is so hurting now.Those who leaves without passion are never were in the “school”.
lowselfkingofclub@yahoo.com
February 24, 2007 at 11:36 pm
Dear Contributors,
I’m interested in what keeps us more or less anonymous. Not theories about why others remain anonymous, but is anyone willing to share why they choose to do so?
For myself I wanted to expose who I am as I see such choices tend to strengthen self acceptance and inner peace. But I became aware that my last name was the name of my ex, who is still a commited member of the Fellowship, and I was concerned that members reading this blog (if there are any?!) would associate my views with him. This is my story, and hopefully many will know who I am from this info…
Anyway I’m interested in what is behind individual’s anonymity or the names they chose. Why Medusa, why tb45, why White Knight, Innernaut, Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion etc etc? And why no last names? Please don’t feel cornered by this – I am just interested if anyone would like to share more information about themselves…
To readers and contributors:
I want to add something to a post I made earlier (169). Part of the result of stepping out of the FOF has been that many people I feel a deep connection with are no longer in my day to day life, either because our paths no longer cross or because of their belief that it is the right thing to cut off their openness to someone who is no longer in the FOF. For those FOF members who feel this way: Be careful, such thinking may well become a stumbling block for you being true to yourself in the future.
I see now that such unquestioned beliefs, and following the recommendation/encouragement to confine your activities and connections to those involving the FOF, insidiously lead to dependency and fear of being true to yourself.
FOF membership is one of many changing human attributes. Really, doesn’t this blog prove that?! If you desire to behave in ways that lead to freedom, peace and clarity, examine this.
Dear Stephen – I’d love to come for tea. Please post when and where.
With thanks for the opportunity this forum provides,
Sarah
February 25, 2007 at 1:02 am
Stephen (181): The way that this blog works, everyone has the option to enter their name, their website and e-mail. The only information that is available to other readers are the name and the website address. The e-mail address is only visible to me and the Knight. I realise now that it could be rather problematic for you guys to contact each other, yet I am not going to reveal your e-mails publicly without your prior consent. So if you want to throw your e-mail to the public, you will have to do it yourself and include it in the main body of your comment. I can’t protect it from spam, or people who you would rather not be contacted by. If anyone has a better solution then please feel free to tell me about it and I’ll try to make it work.
Another One (183): Wow.
Sarah (193): It’s sad but I would not put my real name under the majority of things I have written or created on the internet. I do not want my employer to be aware of my hobbies, interests or anything else that may cloud his judgement as to his interaction with me. Especially when it comes to the more esoteric subjects, my name needs not be connected with things that may be ‘weird’, ‘wrong’, ‘immoral’, or ‘illegal’. As to the FoF, I am a paranoid man and I do not feel the need to be attacked or sued for something that may be perceived to be anti-FoF, hence the rather silly nick-name that I use here. At the moment I believe that anonymity is necessary, rather than just convenient. For the same reason you may want to be careful about revealing your names and use e-mail addresses that would be hardly traceable back to you. I know how paranoid I may sound, but better careful than sorry.
February 25, 2007 at 1:13 am
Sarah,
I for one hide behind an anonymous monniker because of fear, pure and simple. I fear the long arm of the fellowship. I have seen how, repeatedly, negative reviews of Robert’s book “Self Remembering” on amazon.com are mysteriously removed. That ability to censor information is frightening to me, and makes me want to hide my identity from potential attackers. Maybe I’m overly paranoid, but as someone said, the fellowship is a cage, and caged beings start to defend their cage after a while. Ferociously, it would seem.
Also, I am Innernaut when I post from another computer. I hope that doesn’t seem dishonest or is breaking the rules of this forum. Why the name? I thought it sounded cool.
Stephen, I would love to come to tea and talk your ear off (and listen), but I’m afraid I’m on the east coast.
Sarah, I’ve appreciated your posts.
Shiek of Inner Confusion — I love your name, and have enjoyed other parts of this web site. Again, thanks for all the work involved in moderating.
February 25, 2007 at 1:33 am
Low Self King of Clubs (#192) — you are right about the silly sequence. Hold on to your common sense and don’t let go! I almost wish that had been taught when I was a member — I would have known to leave sooner.
And as for what you said at the end of your comment, about trusting and getting hurt — you are absolutely correct.
Also, I’d like to paraphrase your final sentence for emphasis:
“Those who leave without passion were never in the “school.”
That is a beautiful and profound observation. Thank you.
February 25, 2007 at 2:16 am
Dear Sarah,
You wrote: “because of their belief that it is the right thing to cut off their openness to someone who is no longer in the FOF.” My observation is that this goes both ways.
I officially “left the school” yesterday.
I am reluctant to contact ex-members because I do not want to be received with open arms by those who have been cool to me merely due to my continuing membership in the Fellowship (even though I did not ostracize them when they left).
I reject the entire we/they mentality. You were not evil, misguided or damned when you left; neither was I when I stayed. My heart told me to join 25 years ago, then it told me to leave when the right time came. In between was a lot of learning and growing, and also a lot of confusion. Perhaps we all agonize too much over all this.
“Cult behavior” is rampant and unavoidable both in and out of the Fellowship. I recognize it multiple times each day when I am rejected or welcomed (or reject/welcome) merely because of perceived stances: Waldorf/Public school, Christian/Muslim/New Age/Buddhist/whatever, Gold alchemy/copper alchemy,Liberal/Moderate/Conservative, wealthy/impoverished, pro-war/anti-war,NC native/newcomer, young/old, FoF/non- or ex-FoF; it goes on and on.
Time for a different way to perceive other human beings.
My own situation is quite exciting, really – there’s a whole world out there. Hopefully I will figure out where to put my feet sometime soon. Right now I am just resting, but a bit anxious about “what will I do with myself” now that the venue of the Fellowship is out of bounds. It’s bit surreal.
Wheeeeeee
Sharon
February 25, 2007 at 2:57 am
Hello again,
Thanks Medusa, I appreciate your further posts and will also try not to take you so seriously — and I truly hope we do meet again!
I’ve been thinking a lot about Medusa’s heartfelt question of how to successfully “move on.”
It might help to spend some time contemplating what does “successfully moving on” mean for you? And then address it at that level. (For me, it was something like – I want to be sane and free on the other side, with my feet on the floor. For you, it might be, I want to be able to care for and feed my family, or not spend time reminiscing on blogs with FOF students. Somehow knowing what I fundamentally needed helped me focus and move in the direction I wished to go.)
My subjective feeling is that the position you are in right now is really tough. It’s not so tough to be totally involved and believing in the new Teaching and being authentic with one’s community about it. It’s not so tough once one has left, to start moving into new possibilities as one is suddenly open and available to them. But to make the decision that one wants to move on, and to still be immersed in the FOF experience — that’s tough!
That was the yuckiest part for me, it’s disorienting and there’s a heavy falseness, ongoing internal negotiations, and an uncomfortable anticipation of the unknown–what’s that great angle from Rodney Colin about unnecessary suffering? When we repeatedly anticipate a note that has not yet sounded, or when we hang on to a note that has ceased to sound. Ouch, that IS suffering.
In a practical way, if it’s time to move, just start moving, any way you can! Maybe these impossible obstacles are impossible, but maybe they are part of the dream, and you can only find out by experimenting – change an internal attitude, go have tea with Stephen, send out your resume…I am not sure how to guarantee a successful moving on experience, but I’m pretty sure it won’t happen by staying put.
Best of luck and trust (surrender, let go, give up…), jumping and hopping to anyone in Medusa’s postion.
February 25, 2007 at 6:17 am
Hi Sara
To which SELF are you being true to?
I think that you are in Imagination.
February 25, 2007 at 6:55 am
Sarah I know who you are God love you! Call 0727 – lets meet.
Love to you and the kids
Stephen
February 25, 2007 at 9:46 am
Dear whomever-you-are reading this,
Let us not forget (our selves and) that FOF has a retention rate of less than ~20%; and it’s getting lower all the time. (The reason it gets lower is that new members are more discriminating about spiritual matters and see through the facade of FOF all the sooner, alas. And there is the attrition of older members.) This means that less than 1 in 5 people who join are still members. This also means that at least 4 out of every 5 people joining leave. This is a lot of people that leave FOF, many due to discontent, and therefore the reason this blog serves a purpose. There is easily 10-20,000 people that have joined and left. One might be able to say, ‘Many are called, but few are chosen.’ Alternatively, ‘Many are thawed, but few are frozen.’
The reasons for leaving are manifold. But one reason for leaving, one would think/feel/suppose, is that people develop and graduate, having achieved some objective standard of accomplishment in the perception of the Teacher (RB). But this does not happen in FOF, at least not visibly – possibly not invisibly. One reason for this could be that the Teacher, who was formally educated and employed as a grade (primary) school teacher, does not have the Being to graduate anyone (let alone himself.) The Teacher is perhaps no better than a fourth grade teacher. In order to graduate in this type of school, one must fail, and fail repeatedly, as a prerequisite for graduation that never comes to pass. Therefore, ‘by their fruits you shall know them’ applies. There is an eastern or perhaps Buddhist idea: The true measure of a Teacher or a master is the extent to which they allow their pupil(s), that are capable and proven, to exceed them – recognizing that others may attain a degree of excellence. The enlightened master would not only allow this, but promote and graduate as many highly developed aspirants as is possible and that the teacher is capable of developing. Develop them and then let them go. This would then have the maximum benefit to humanity and life on Earth. Does anything like this happen in the Fellowship of Friends? Does anything like this happen in the Fourth Way or this particular branch of the Fourth Way? Maybe it does?
Ask your self, ‘Does the Teacher produce any fruit?’ Are matters judged primarily upon the external appearances of things? Are the invisible forces beyond human, or a conscious, being’s control acting for the benefit of the evolution of the planet? Does ‘them and us’ attitude help? whether you are ‘in and out above about or below? ‘Tis nothing but a magic shadow show; played in a box whose candle is the sun; wherein we phantom figures come and go?’
I remain anonymous because to pose such questions, in FOF or out, would be treason in the views of some.
Good Luck in your aspirations,
sincerely,
Wouldn’t you like to know.
©
February 25, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I cannot abandon the work ideas,I find threads of the fourth way where ever I look. Rodney Collin says to not let the IDEAS get too cold.
I am out of FOF and it was hard in ‘life’ discussing ‘life’. I can only take so much of Britney Spears, motherhood, Chevrolets and apple pie. When I did find Robert’s book, “Self Remembering” I thought I found another Gold Nugget. Some people go on a journey to Tibet and learn nothing.
February 25, 2007 at 6:03 pm
Perhaps those who are really keen to get back in touch might consider creating an ex-FOF directory on a separate Web space i.e. a neutral zone where just a name and e-mail address appear (possibly a photo or two for the really daring – one during, the other post FOF, just in case you’ve become unrecognisable!)
You can’t get roasted in hell for doing that can you?
February 25, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Thanks for the sharing around anonymity and names.
Sharon, I agree, the thinking cuts both ways. Congratulations on your step.
Balancing the scale – don’t want to play that game anymore.
With love, Sarah
February 25, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Post 201 points out correctly that Burton makes every effort to ensure that students don’t graduate. He wants them to remain in the FOF so that they keep paying. He states that students who leave lose all possibility of awakening. Nisargadatta (well repected Indian sage) told visitors that if they didn’t “get it” in a week they might as well leave and try something else – a much more healthy approach!
So if you want to leave the FOF you have to do it yourself, pushing through all the artificial “denying force”.
As for myself, once I was out I could see that the FOF did usefully function as a kind of pre-school where some helpful realisations occurred, eg the “I”s are not real, life is a play, etc. But there’s something missing.
The time of leaving is a very good time to make the next step. There’s a liberation in the act of leaving which can continue till all one’s old concepts drop away, leaving only simple reality.
February 25, 2007 at 8:52 pm
This is copied from e-mails sent to students.
The previous stuff I posted was also copied from oficial sources, this was done just to show you what’s going on and encourage you to draw your own conclusions.
To me It’s a pure delusion and insanity, and unfortunately it is taken for real by so many hypnotized glassy-eyed people.
Now Asaf is beeing prepared to become the “next teacher”. He is a very young inexperienced man with a sweet smile and vanity feature, who has been taken care for his whole life, has not much life experience, never had a job, never had a long-term relarionship, and has no clue about what is he talking about. He leads meetings now (what a shame) and students are paying for it… It is so sad!
Dear “Ascending octave” – please, please open your eyes… If you still can of course. Sequence is madness. It is not a “new tool”, it is insanity. Robert may have lost his mind. Listen to what he is saying! Asaf-the new Teacher is madness. What is he going to teach you, a spoiled kid who has no clue? Get real. Please wake up.
Sat, January 13, 7:00 pm – Dinner hosted by Asaf at the Galleria
Seated: Regular $75.00 Special $50.00
Standing: Regular 35.00 Special 25.00.
Topic: Laying a Firm Foundation
We will examine what schools say about laying a proper foundation for a sequence, what are its most common obstacles, and how to become more expert at engaging presence with short ‘Be’.
Sun, January 14, 10:00 am – Meeting led by Asaf at the Galleria
First Row: $75.00, Second Row: $65.00, General Seating: $50.00
Last Row Medical: $35.00, Standing: $25.00
Topic: The Responsibility of the Nine of Hearts
Following Robert’s recent comment that “behind the steward is the nine of hearts, and behind the nine of hearts is divine presence, and behind divine presence are Influence C, and behind Influence C is the Absolute,” we will aim at better
understanding the responsibility of the nine of hearts in this divine equation and how to ensure its proper work.
From recent Isis Notes: (some Robert’s brilliant explanations )
“In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God … All things were made by him; and without him was not any thing made that was made.” [John 1:1-4]
Robert: In the beginning of the sequence was the word Be,
and the word was God—Be acted and engaged presence—and the word was with God throughout the sequence. * A mosaic from the cathedral of Monreale depicts the Creation. It represents the state that we are in sending down a sequence to
dispel imagination. In the beginning of the sequence is the word Be.
“When heaven and earth were created, there had already been four kinds of men, four kinds of manifestations.” [Aztec Manuscripts]
Robert: “When heaven and earth were created”—when presence and the nine of hearts were created with the sequence—“there had already been four kinds of men, four kinds of manifestations.” “Four kinds of men” refers to the four wordless breaths; “four kinds of manifestations” refers to the inhalation and exhalation of these breaths. * The World card represents the state that we are in, which is the opposite of the Hanged Man. The figures in the four corners of the World card refer to the “four kinds of men,” also referred to by the Egyptians as the “four kings”—the four wordless breaths. The egg represents the sequence.
There you go, practice away.
It’s a “missing piece”, a simplicity itself. It’s truly “Short an Simple”, and “very clear”, and it truly works!
(It gets you closer to a mental institution… Just keep counting everything and seeing shapes in all things around you, do it more, do it in public, there is hidden meaning everywhere you know…)
February 25, 2007 at 9:21 pm
Sarah, regarding your comment (#204) about Balancing the Scale’s “observation”: Nice job dispensing with that kind of thought-less (ie, lacking in any real thought), knee-jerk response. Balancing’s comment is classic mind-control (cult) behavior — pre-digested code phrases that clamp down on anything that threatens the status quo.
There is a very good book that addresses this kind of thing, among others, and I would highly recommend it to those trying to disentangle themselves from a cultish organization. It’s called “The Guru Papers: Masks of Authoritarian Power” by Joel Kramer and Diana Alstad. They write about how phrases such as the one “Balancing” used, which questions “which self?”, are used to generate self-mistrust, which in turn opens one to manipulation and psychological imprisonment. Think about it — there is a catch phrase for every question that threatens to undermine one’s belief in the organization: “Which self,” “it’s just the King of Clubs, Queen of Hearts, etc,” “go against the machine,” and on and on. You are right not to want to play that game anymore.
Understand, in my time I employed these phrases to keep myself and others in line as much as anyone. It took much work on my part to free my thinking from what William Blake called these “mind-forged manacles.” I found the book I mentioned very helpful, for those struggling with these issues.
February 25, 2007 at 9:31 pm
Hello to all,
Stephen, nice to hear from you! I’ll stop by for tea, when I’m in the area. I prefer Earl Grey…
I would like to announce a very special tea/dinner/esoteric talk kind of event on East Coast, with John Wheeler as our guest, on April 7 and April 8.
He will give talks, and then will be available for questions.
If you happen to resonate with “non-dual” or “Advaita” ideas, or if you’ve read his or similar books and have questions – please e-mail me for details. (malaec@yahoo.com)
If you’d like to learn about John or read his “pointers” – here’s his site: http://thenaturalstate.org/
Seating is limited, and price is cheap. Which means – hurry up if you are interested. It looks like there will be mostly ex-students and some brave students.
A thought on anonimity: I noticed that when we sign our names, what often happens is that people have an inevitable reaction to a name. So there is a subjective response, and (often) judgment that we keep in a memory file attached to this particular person. We saw this happen on this board with Susan, Philip and others.
Sometimes what is actually said could be missed, even if what is said is great. We tend to focus on WHO is speaking, rather on WHAT is being said.
But we don’t choose our thoughts, right? Do you really know your next thought? Thougts seem to just come, appear. So in a way – it’s not “our” thoughts anyway. By signing the name these thoughts become personal and are reacted to personally. But they are not personal, nothing is personal.
I am not afraid of FOF prosecution, I find the whole fear thing about this paper tiger comical at this point. Leaving your first and last name all over internet may just not be a great idea – I agree with Sheik. Who knows… Although people seem to do it more and more these days…
I just think It’s not about the names here.
However, I would like to be able to connect with some nice people I used to know in FOF, who had left. May be, listing your e-mail is a good idea – not the main address but a free one – from yahoo or such. I’ve listed mine. Please feel free to contact me if you wish.
malaec@yahoo.com
February 25, 2007 at 9:49 pm
Let me take a little portion of your space just to thank “And still another one Says” for #185 and Dear Cheryl for hers. You are both right on the tender spot, both of your posts made me cry and made me mad;because they are both so painfully, humiliatingly…true.I appreciate your voices. Yes, there isn’t a worst place then being in a cage, realizing it, not being able to find the door,then find it, being afraid of jumping out and looking back inside where there are so many not even aware of the cage at all, blissfully ignorant.You know what ? I felt EXACTLY like this when I joint and everyone else around me in “life” didn’t even acknowledge being asleep…I appreciate your voices.Dearest Stephen what about chocolate and coffee?
February 25, 2007 at 9:57 pm
Oh, by the way…”Ascending Octave “#190/191..your post made me cry & mad too, but for the opposite reasons.I’m very sorry for you, although you made me quite grateful for my discomfort….at least it carries HOPE & possibilities.
February 25, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Dear Medusa,
Thank you for your post (#209). Of all the deeply affecting messages on this forum, this one may be the most affecting of all for me. I truly appreciate the honesty of your voice, and the courage it took to write this. You clearly have the capacity for a great deal of honest self-examination. Please know that I am pulling for you, and send you all my best wishes.
February 26, 2007 at 12:01 am
Thank you “And still another one # 196”
I would like to address an important issue in regards to the post #199 of “Balancing the scale”.
In my opinion,this post is well explains the whole confusion of the FOF.I saw it years ago but no one was around to be able to discuss it with.Now it seems so obvious.The Fellowship’s “esoteric policy” does not include a “winning” place in it or a “successful finish” or a “awakening” at its final.This school can not be finished unless you die in it and “move to the next life time”.This policy include only the “efforts of getting there” but not an arrival it self.Robert would not be willing to share his profitable “Conscious” place with any other prospective “Conscious” player who could then easily attract most of the business to them self’s.That is why Robert never officially “gave” the medals of man # 5 to Mr.Burt and to Girard.Because it is dangerous and it will take much more efforts for Burton to take those titles back in case of some thing goes wrong.At the same time Burton must show to his people that there is a progress in the school and some students are really getting close to awakening.So he keeps it controlled.The System tells us that even man # 5 can still loose every thing and that’s why there could no possibly be man # 6 in the school (which is an irrevocable status according to the System) as long as Burton will rule.
When Mr.Burt has left the school 20 years ago Robert sad the “he was on his first life time and on the first life time the intensity of the Soul is similar to the intensity of the 9th life time.” One shut and Mr.Burt has disappeared as an unfortunate student who lost every thing at once by leaving.
In regards to Girard there are two options that I can think of.His is either a hopeless lunatic who is literally fights to protect Burton’s teaching or he is so unfortunate that he must to pretend in order to survive.But in any case,he probably realize that one wrong step and Burton’s anger will crush him down like it just crushed Leigh Fletcher,a dedicated,hard working student,who was removed from her octave of selling out spaces for Teacher events for a discount price in order to fill and sell an unsalable.
This rotten politics has tools to keep the show going.Post #199 is a good example to it.How many time we have heard in Fellowship things like “You are just a machine”,” You can not do”, You can not know”,Which “You” is wanting? Which “Self” is knowing? Which “I” is angry?..the list is long and hopeless..
So when,Sara is trying to be true to her self and find her way out she gets this dull and stinky questions like this post # 199.
And just one ting I would like to contribute to this sincere and beautiful discussion between Sara,Sharon and Cheryl.
To move on does not necessary means to forget.How one can forget his life?And why would he? FOF was our life and is our life even after leaving.Its like a marriage or any other significant events in our liefs.To forget them will mean to cut a big chunk of your life.And then whats left?Are they worth it?.The other thing is to find the right place for it inside of us but that’s can only be done by long discussions with our self’s and others.By reviewing and reorganized every thing we had been experiencing and realizing.We can not escape it.And we really shouldn’t.
Many of us had join the FOF to escape life and now its all is coming back at us?
We escaping FOF by running away to life?
No!
We shell not run from any one including our self’s.I hope there will be a point when I will be able to dismiss and put in archive this FOF case.But until that day I am in.
lowselfkingofclub@yahoo.com
February 26, 2007 at 1:05 am
To Innernaut (175) and everyone,
Innernaut, you wrote about Robert’s “masterful manipulation” when he said that leaving the school feels like a relief because “of course it feels good to go back to mechanicality.”
This is a good example of the kind of circular reasoning that precludes leaving the school. I’m not advocating leaving the school, because I’m not sure what’s best for anyone else or even for myself most of the time. But so far in this blog, we’ve focused mostly on the experiences of those who’ve left the school and those who are in and would like to leave but haven’t left yet. They’ve already broken through the circular reasoning. But what about the “good students” who are in the Fellowship who have no wish to leave because, as with Robert’s comment above, they have an answer for everything. Their point of view is, I think, worth considering because their choice to leave amounts to no more than a theoretical possibility, and so they may be keeping themselves cooped up, as I was, in a spiritually unhealthy environment without realizing it. I wish that 20 years ago someone had said this to me.
The circular reasoning I’m talking about is inherent in the fourth way. Whenever something is said that questions the school, there is an answer to be found in the system, such as the one that Innernaut quoted from Robert. Other examples could include: students have left the school are feeling good because Influence C has “released” them and they don’t realize that they’ve just committed spiritual suicide, or, “they are not school material,” or “they couldn’t transform the suffering they had in the school,” “it’s their king of clubs,” “they’re too weak,” “they’re identified,” “they’re in imagination” (as exemplified in post 199 and referred to in post 207 – “mind-forged manacles” is a good description). I’m adding all these quotes because I’ve heard them and literally hundreds of others like them over the years said by Fellowship students who sincerely believe them, who are totally positive about the school and working on themselves in it as hard as they can. I heard them coming from my own mouth too when I was a student, many times.
Though the Fellowship announced that it was “leaving the Fourth Way behind” years ago, that system still underpins much of the psychological work that it encourages in its students. But there is a way out. You may be a sincere, hard-working Fellowship student who is not looking for that, but you are reading this blog, so let me respectfully ask you, “Isn’t it just possible that you missed something somewhere along the way? After all, you are ‘asleep,’ right? Isn’t it just possible that these are not the words of the king of clubs or queen of hearts that you are reading right now but simply someone who cares about you because they were once in your position?” Like you, I was very positive about the school and worked very hard on myself, with others, and for the school. Now that I’ve left, you may be thinking that it proves that I must have had some fundamental flaw. That explains it, but do you see the circular reasoning here? Is an open mind really something to be afraid of?
Posts 183 and 205 mention “something” that is missing from the fourth way, and I luckily came across a “something” of that nature one day when one of Robert’s assistants asked me to go through a book to find angles for Robert to use at a Galleria meeting. As I read, I was shocked to see that this “missing something” was actually the most important thing of all, and I’m writing to you about it here because, in case I’m right about it, I hope you will use it too. When I add that Ouspensky describes someone pointing out this same “missing something” to Gurdjieff (in In Search of the Miraculous), you may be tempted to dismiss it much as he did (and as I did for over 20 years). Gurdjieff dismissed it with a put-down and moved on, but I want to suggest that maybe, just maybe, it’s worth a closer look. It has become obvious to me that without this one thing, all fourth way work on oneself is doomed to failure at best and most likely to damaging the heart, mind and spirit. Can you guess what it is that I’m talking about? I think that you can, because it seems to me now that everyone’s heart knows it, deep inside, that this is why we are here in this life, to develop this one characteristic, this one ability, this one power.
It is, as you probably guessed, love. Though the Fellowship has characterized itself as a school of Love, it is clear from its internal workings (that have been so glaringly described in this blog) that this was just a clever cosmetic. What is the one thread that runs throughout all the Fellowship’s inner workings? The same thing that characterizes the fourth way system: selfishness. Busy with second and third line work, and the first line work of resisting the “machine” and trying to accumulate, extend and deepen as many moments of presence as possible, the student is constantly preoccupied with himself – even when volunteering for community service. It can be easy to miss this. I missed it for 22 years. Think about it, isn’t there something more to “Love” than self-remembering and its appendages: second line of work, external considering, mechanical goodness, inner considering and feminine dominance? Isn’t there something more to “Love” than furthering one’s own level of consciousness? Ultimately, what good is consciousness without love? It would be like having King Midas’s wish come true for you: to be able to turn anything to gold with your finger and so end up living in a golden, lifeless, lonely world.
I don’t claim to know the ultimate answers, just that I have found something that really works when compared to the fourth way and making efforts as a student in the Fellowship. If what I’m talking about here doesn’t make sense to you, okay. Maybe I’m mistaken – God knows it’s happened many times before! Even so, I sincerely wish you well in your work on yourself in the Fellowship. But if the day comes when it stops working for you, and perhaps you come to the realization, as I did, that it never has, I hope you remember to ask yourself, “Is it because all this is based on selfishness? Is it because it is missing the most essential something of all: love?”
And just to clarify, since the word “love” can mean so many different things, by “love” I don’t mean to refer merely to just a desire or romantic feeling or enjoyable interest, or appreciation or valuation. Love is simply the feeling of compassion for another, compassion that inspires the wish to help them, to help everyone (including oneself), to serve them. In so doing one feels fulfilled oneself – in the same way that a plant feels fulfilled as it breaks through the surface soil to the light of day and eventually blossoms and bears fruit. This love is not a buffer to awakening, but includes it. The fundamental mistake of the fourth way is to emphasize awakening for its own sake. Isn’t it possible that awakening is just a stepping-stone along the way? Isn’t it possible that it’s just one experience among many that enables one to realize one’s true nature, and the destiny that each of us has: to become a compassionate loving being whose life is dedicated to service and relieving suffering in others?
To Matthew of post 178 and Cheryl of post 174, thank you.
And again to Innernaut, who wrote in post 175, “If this is wrong, I don’t want to be right.” For me too, that was a necessary link to break in my “mind-forged manacles.” I said to myself, “If this is what it means to be conscious, with all the greed for material possessions and hard-heartedness toward other people, and this is all the purpose there is to life, then I choose the moon.”
And to Medusa of post #160, was it your intention to hurt my feelings? If so, then you succeeded. You say in post #176 not to take you seriously, but isn’t it serious to intentionally cause another person pain? I’ll get over it, but if you continue that way you’re going to make yourself miserable. Believe me, helping others, encouraging and supporting them is much better for all concerned. To you and to all who are reading this, I wish you to experience the joy of that as much as you can.
February 26, 2007 at 1:19 am
Dear Sharon, Sarah, and others,
Sharon, good luck with your exploration of the “whole world out there.” I was happy to hear your thoughts on not wanting to take sides. We tend to conceptualize things by saying and thinking, “we” and “them.” Since I left, sometimes I have been much happier to see fof students than before while being a student … not only because of being hungry for an “emotional experience,” but rather that there are more moments when seeing another I see a living person instead of an “fof student” or whatever the label might indicate. Of course, it’s not always the case, I have good days and bad days so there are no absolutes – and that’s just fine as it is.
Earlier, someone mentioned that we create the fof in our mind – whether we are in or out. So it’s good to take responsibility for that – though not in a serious, self-beating way – and see where our beliefs have taken us … it’s sometimes a little scary, other times just funny. Coming back from the rabbit hole we can see how our mind works – and then we can learn of something that actually frees us. The question of fof, as a structure, is another thing.
Regarding labeling others as Medusa did, Chogyam Trungpa, a Tibetan Buddhist teacher, said: no one can tell you what you really are. No one else has seen the beautiful things you have done and the nasty things you have done, not even your mother. You are the only one who has been there from the very beginning. Otherwise we can become very dependent on other’s thoughts and reactions (which we do any way) … and that’s sad prospect. Every one of us has something beautiful to offer that is inspired and free, and every one of us has something that we would prefer to hide, something that is small and mean and egoic. Actually, Rodney Collin called what we truly are sacred – something that no one could define, especially not with words. This also means: please don’t call yourself names such as a “nasty queen of clubs.” You and I are ultimately are the same – even though this might sound like or be a cliche. The nastiness and beauty are both there, everywhere. Find a moment when you can take a breath freely … go out into the woods, listen to the rain, soak in the sun (or the rain by the way) – whatever works for you – that makes you feel alive in your skin. You are fine. Everything goes from there. If it sounds all “I know it all” – sorry, I too have vanity.
Re. “Balancing the scale,” which self does Sarah refer to? In the fof, you work with the idea that you have to “create” your self – but how can you create something that always HAS BEEN and IS ETERNAL? Who defines that self for you? Reading it in books, hearing about it from others? That might be helpful as a pointing finger but not the real thing (and you also have to figure out whether the owner of the finger means well). The “self,” as we all know and heard thousands of times, equals with awareness – and that awareness is happening all the time whether you know it or not. But there is something else: it also includes conscience. That we care about things and people. It’s not only about me and my awakening and my presence – and everyone else can go to hell. Does anyone really think that this is the way the self works and everything else is stupidity? It would be very-very sad if it was working that way. Then, I would choose not to go down on that road, thank you. What is fun about being alive is that we are all in this, black and white, good and bad. Have you ever stopped by a street person and held their hand? How would that feel? I say this because I did it once and to said to them, “You are ok, just don’t give up. Things will change.” It’s wonderful to do or be what genuinely comes form within. Somehow, the human heart always had a huge importance in reaching god, awakening, enlightenment, or whatever you call it. Though hundreds woke up and spoke about the importance of sharing and giving – not based on whether people are “deserving” your attention or whatever you can offer or not – there is a very strong tendency for rejection of others based on fear. Fear that they will affect “me” in a way that is not useful, that they will do something to me by being what they are. A student told me about the “non-looking exercise” meaning that you should turn away when seeing something ugly. Once, there is beautiful, there will be ugliness for sure. But it’s obviously the little me talking, fearing that its compact little dream-bubble will burst. The little me creating barricades and saying “no” to things. But somehow, in spite of these attamepts to create divisions, the things that you are “separating from,” too, are part of you.
Well, we are not saints, so anyway we go and judge and try to speak as if we knew – but at least let’s not make a system out of it that claims to lead to “Love.”
I also agree with “Wouldn’t you like to know” that graduation is a sign of a healthy school. There is always much more to learn.
February 26, 2007 at 2:40 am
I also recommend reading “The Guru Papers” by Kramer and Alstad. I would like to suggest another book that has some helpful chapters: “Feet Of Clay – a study of Gurus” by Anthony Storr. Both books helped prepare me as I went about the long and arduous process of leaving.
February 26, 2007 at 4:54 pm
After reading all these postings one quote comes to mind: As Gurdjief would say, “Wiseacerings.” Another quote that keeps me focused on the purpose of this life: “If friendly conversation is for the purpose of knowing God, and not discussing meaningless nonsense, it is the Garden of Paradise.” [Tashkandi]
February 26, 2007 at 5:19 pm
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February 26, 2007 at 6:34 pm
FW Student (#216):
So you have pronounced judgement on our discussion, having determined it is “meaningless nonsense.” Why, then, are you here? Unless it makes you feel clever to criticize other people’s heartfelt thoughts.
Also, if you have anything to say, why don’t you try thinking for yourself, instead of putting forth someone else’s thoughts in the form of quotes? It strikes me as lazy.
February 26, 2007 at 6:38 pm
Philip (#213) and Zsuzsa (#214): Thank you for the wonderful posts. I don’t have anything to add, I just wanted to voice my agreement and support for your hard-won understanding.
February 26, 2007 at 6:51 pm
OK, I’ll try again. Like Philip, I am concerned that the only people posting are those who have left, or those who are about to leave.
Current members are being driven off this board because of the attacks on them, some of them pretty judgmental.
Medusa said some tactless things. OK. That needs maybe two posts to photograph — not ten. “Balancing the Scales” expresses one of the commonest viewpoints in the Fellowship of Friends — and a dozen guns go off at once. Corrections and observations politely presented will be far more effective. One thought might be (and I’ve tried it) to check before you post to see if someone has already made the point to the person in question, or at least enough so that your own post might perceived as part of a “me too” attack.
BTW, brilliant post, Philip.
February 26, 2007 at 6:58 pm
From Pascal’s Pensees, for Philip:
“The infinite distance between body and mind is symbolic of the more infinite distance between the mind and charity, for charity is above nature…
“All bodies, the firmament, the stars, the earth and its kingdoms, are not comparable to the mind at its lowest; for the mind knows it all and knows itself; and bodies know naught of it.
All bodies together, and all minds together, and all their works, are of less worth than the smallest act of charity. Charity is of an infinitely higher order.
From all bodies together we cannot extract one little thought; it is imposssible, and of a different order. From all bodies and minds we cannot extract a single impulse of true charity; it is impossible, and belongs to a different and supernatural order.” (#568)
February 26, 2007 at 7:08 pm
I’m a little concerned about you, #202, if your viewpoint of “life” is summarized as “I can only take so much of Britney Spears, motherhood, Chevrolets and apple pie.”
I never spent much time in front of the TV or with a lot of the popular media. And to be honest, I always found that some of the people I knew or met in life were more intelligent, spiritual, profound than most of the people I met in the Fellowship.
But I find that the Fellowship is like going to a prepared dinner every night. You can forget to learn to shop or cook for yourself. One can forget how to select one’s influences, friendships, impressions.
Where are you going? Who do you talk to? What are you reading? What do you listen to?
February 26, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Hi Philip,
Nice posting! The FOF’s hypocrisy in calling itself a school of love is indeed astonishing. And I was personally happy to see you respond to Medusa’s spiteful comment so honestly.
I have a question concerning your main point though. You describe the destiny that each of us has as being to “become a compassionate loving being whose life is dedicated to service and relieving suffering in others”. It sounds good, but do you really think we need to try to become a better person in this way? Isn’t it truer to say that everything is just as it should be right now, including you and me and everyone else (even the deluded and hypocritical Mr. Burton)? I suspect you agree with this!
love to you and Zsuzsa, Charles
February 26, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Concerning post # 216:
It’s good to see a contribution from an actual FOF student, but unfortunately it’s just the same as the others – a label, “wiseacerings”, is stuck on the arguments proposed in these blogs and the writer appears to think that that answers all questions! No thought necessary, as previously pointed out. But I wonder if there is an FOF student who has the courage and intelligence to dispute some of the ideas put forward here. Or do they all realise deep down that what they’re told to believe is ridiculous?
Charles
February 26, 2007 at 8:43 pm
Philip’s raises an important point in post #213 about “good students” who are content with the FOF. In my experience, deciding to leave is a completely personal decision that one must come to on one’s own. I can remember very clearly how I felt in the beginning of my time in the school, the utter certainty with which I knew that I was in the right place, in a “real school” — the pure gratitude I felt at my good fortune. If I was questioned by anyone — my family for example — I would just smile that knowing smile, thinking “Oh you poor “life person,” if only you could understand. But you can’t, so I won’t waste any time being sentimental about this sleeping machine in a descending octave. Bye-bye, and good luck on the moon!”
No one could have broken through that certainty, and when they tried, it only strengthened my resolve to stay and keep working on the three lines. Later, when my own doubts began in earnest, I declared them to be “the machine” or “false personality,” and struggled against them (ie, repressed them).
This is not to say that I did not receive anything useful in the fellowship. I learned a certain amount of discipline, primarily, something I very much needed at the time. But I probably got all the benefits of that in the first year. Which brings up the question — do I consider all the other years to be a waste of time? Let me say, no, not at all.
As time wore on and I doubted more, I learned that the part of me that wanted to stay was not, by definition, “true personality,” and vice versa. Quite the contrary. This process of having my inner world turned upside down helped me learn to trust myself, to learn what I really wanted from my life, to discern which voices inside me were more true, and which voices I was following out of fear, feelings of guilt and a sense of obligation. By the time I got close to leaving, I was miserable in the school. I chose happiness.
Each step forward was the inevitable result of what came before — how can any step be wasted when that is the case?
On the whole, I feel like I circled around in my life, coming back to myself as I was before I joined, but with far more understanding. Understanding of what, you might ask?
Well, after all the words I’ve written here and above, it might surprise you to know that my ability to say, “I don’t know” in response to a question is something I prize dearly. I am learning to be content with the mystery of things. For me, and I say that because this is purely a personal view, I found the ideas in the 4th way and the FOF to be in turn useful, constraining, and ultimately — lies. I mean “lie” in the sense Ouspensky used it — talking about things we don’t know as if we did. Certainly ideas like hydrogens, lifetimes, souls on the moon, the ray of creation, and so on, are lies if spoken about as though they are anything but theories (which may be interesting for conversation sake, but nothing more). But again, for me, that sense of “lying” came to encompass the entire system in general and what Robert had to say in particular with his omens and predictions that never once came true. Worse still, reading this blog, it would seem Robert has descended into a complete reliance on superstition — the most primitive and least accurate form of spirituality, in my view.
As for the “good students,” perhaps all this madness with the “sequence” will jar them to their senses. I wish I could be charitable and say that that is Robert’s intent, but that would stop the flow of money — and we all know (or should by now) how he would feel about that. Nice work if you can get it!
February 26, 2007 at 8:43 pm
A comment about “wiseacerings”. Before anybody types another word, as a reminder, please read page 270-273 of Maurice Nicoll’s Psychological Commentaries on the teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky volume # 1.
February 26, 2007 at 8:59 pm
zannoss@yahoo.com
February 26, 2007 at 9:10 pm
Dear Medusa,
Just call the number – I have good coffee / turkish and the chocolate you can bring!
I look forward to talking with anyone. Truly we are in a position of “not knowing” and this is very scary when deeply realized, however a freedom comes from it too.I trust we will survive especially if we can take the time to support one another.
Stephen
February 26, 2007 at 9:34 pm
“After reading all these postings one quote comes to mind: As Gurdjief would say, “Wiseacerings.” Another quote that keeps me focused on the purpose of this life: “If friendly conversation is for the purpose of knowing God, and not discussing meaningless nonsense, it is the Garden of Paradise.” [Tashkandi]”
When I have these kinds of thoughts, I ask myself: “Who told you this and why do you believe it?” Perhaps discussing meaningless nonsense in friendly conversation with beloved friends is the only Garden of Paradise we will ever know. My positive memories of the years of FoF meetings I attended are steeped in actual fellowship with like-minded seekers. That is the good that has remained. Mostly, we talked a lot of meaningless nonsense about concepts no one could possibly verify. We still had some good times, though.
February 26, 2007 at 10:54 pm
To FW Student:
Welcome to the Garden of Paradise, my friend.
February 26, 2007 at 11:47 pm
To FW Student:
Uh, no, you’re going to have to work a little harder than that. You may or may not have a substantive point to make; but, as offered, your comment only expresses oppositeness and contempt for the entire discussion. That is both formatory, and negative: two 4th-Way strikes against you already.
You see, merely pulling a word from the Gurdjieff rolodex, and then tossing in a lovely sufi quote for good measure, does not constitute thinking. It does not demonstrate truth, nor does it further dialogue that would work toward truth.
In fact, I almost have the feeling your post could be a deliberate attempt to make pro-FOF members look bad. Now, is that what you really want to achieve?
BBB
February 27, 2007 at 2:16 am
Someone recently commented that Mr Gurdjieff and Mr Ouspensky at certain points felt that something was missing from the system as they knew it. If their writings are anything to go by, what was missing for them was the true value of being present, being out of imagination, and dividing attention. It was apparently all self self self.
February 27, 2007 at 2:28 am
Anonymous wrote:
“A comment about “wiseacerings”. Before anybody types another word, as a reminder, please read page 270-273 of Maurice Nicoll’s Psychological Commentaries on the teaching of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky volume # 1.”
Could you please summarize these pages if you would like them discussed? I don’t own this book. (Nor have I read it.)
February 27, 2007 at 4:26 am
Hi Charles!
A warm hug to you and Angela from Zsuzsa and I, and thank you (and others) for your encouraging words. Good to connect with you again. And you’re right, I do agree with you, that everything is just as it should be right now.
Most of the time though, for me, this is just an idea that I value and agree with – not an experience that I live throughout the day (bad habits? karma to work out?). So I have a question about it – and maybe I’ll ask it of Adyashanti one day, but for now here it is for you and anyone else reading this who would like to respond:
How to get to the point where throughout one’s life, one accepts everything just as it is, as part of one’s unfolding moment-to-moment experience? Is some effort necessary? Why am I not there yet?
Trying to get there for myself through 22 years of fourth way efforts didn’t work. Buddhism seems to suggest that one can get there, but only if one does it for others, as it were. That is, by choosing love over fear, compassion over judgment, service over selfishness.
Maybe this question is off the topic of this blog, but, I don’t know, it could be connected to The Fellowship Experience in some way.
And before I forget, thank you, Sheik, for making this forum possible and continuing to make it available. It’s useful in several ways at once (and enjoyable too).
And thanks to everyone who has contributed. I have read every post with great interest and will continue to do so. And as has been posted before, to those of you who are wondering whether or not to participate, I encourage you to take advantage of this special opportunity – especially if you’re a Fellowship student, it would be good to hear your point of view.
February 27, 2007 at 4:45 am
Failed students of school for truth continuing to be as false and lost outside as they were inside. Misery loves company.
Counting things sure sign of insanity, maybe syphilis.
February 27, 2007 at 4:59 am
To Devoted Reader of post 221,
Thank you very much for the Pensees. I had not seen them before. They are very beautiful.
February 27, 2007 at 6:11 am
One of the odd things about this “conversation” is that the moderation seems to be managed from London – yet many of us are posting from California. So that we see groups of posts from yesterday or last night (presumably as the moderator has time to review the offerings) – this makes it easy to gang up on each other because we don’t have a chance to read others’ posts in a more current fashion, and thus avoid repetitive “me too” posts.
I have no regrets about my time in the Fellowship. When I compare my life “before” and “after”, there is no way that I would choose to not have what I received there. I do not think that I could have accepted another teaching – remember in the old days there was the real admonition to verify everything (which seems to me to have succumbed to superstition and religious belief). Robert was always the downside of the Fellowship for me. I put up with the Teacher for the sake of my wonderful fellow Students.
Phillip, I received more love and comradeship from some students than I have ever experienced anywhere else – but not usually from Robert’s intimate “inner circle”. But, think of some of them – Seiki, John G., Collin L., Maria L, Graylin – perhaps I should not put names here without their permission but to remind you – so many very loving folks. Many are still there and probably will remain ~forever, some are gone now or may be leaving, who knows.
On the positive side, I inner consider far less, I have less fear, and far less self deprecation. I know the taste of self remembering, of presence, and can go there. I am more process satisfied, and less product needy – I can get up and sing and if nobody claps still have a blast because the singing/performing was what I wanted, not the praise. I have an excellent marriage (with a current student) that continues to grow ever stronger, and fabulous kids. My life before the school was not heading in any positive directions.
On the negative side, I wasted a lot of time twisting myself to others’ requirements and squashing my own inner voice. My health suffered. I was often extremely depressed and felt very isolated. I completely abandoned my “life” music career – much to the dismay of my musician friends, who never could understand what I was doing in this cult. Fortunately, I refused to neglect my children, and they are pretty balanced and happy and don’t have drug and alcohol problems (unlike a few FoF kids I can think of – but then, lots of “life” kids are pretty messed up!).
Well, this is getting too long….
warm hug to you all.
Sharon
February 27, 2007 at 7:57 am
Seems like the general trend in this blog is now acceptance and sweetness (always popular), but there’s a lot that hasn’t been said yet. So here’s another disturbing concept: white slavery.
Most of us (maybe not FOF students) are aware that there’s a trade in women from poor villages in eastern europe who are told that they will get a well paid job as a waitress if they move to, say, Austria, but when they get there they find they are compelled to work in a brothel until their expenses are paid off, and those expenses seem to increase rather than diminish. In other words they find themselves in a living hell.
In the FOF, “travelling teachers” visit FOF centers around the world and if they are truly members of the “inner circle” look around for attractive young men whom they think “the teacher” might find useful for his sexual activities. They send photos of a desirable young man to “the teacher”, thereby gaining points in his favour, and if he likes the photos he pays for the airfare of the unfortunate youth (generally from Russia these days) to California. The youth arrives in Oregon House with the belief that he has been honored by “the teacher” for his outstanding spiritual potential, but soon discovers that sexual favors are expected. So what happens then? He calls for a cab and escapes to Yuba City? Unlikely. Probably he doesn’t speak English at all, or only a little. He has a “religious visa” provided by the FOF, which does not entitle him to work outside the FOF. There’s no way he can pay his own airfare back. He becomes a sexual slave.
What goes on at the Galleria (Robert’s home) has only been hinted at here so far. The obsession with blow jobs is only the tip of the iceberg. Some very strange sexual perversions are practiced there. This is not the place to go into the disgusting specifics; just ask any current or former student who lives at “Isis” and who is well enough connected to know about these things. I was not directly involved myself in these activities, but I have spoken one on one to students who were, students who were, unsurprisingly, seriously psychologically traumatised.
All you FOF members who sit on the fence on these issues, or in some cases offer “psychological counseling” to the victims, are indirectly supporting these activities, like the Germans in WW2 who preferred to believe that atrocities were not happening in the camp down the road.
Please try not to buffer this.
February 27, 2007 at 8:23 am
How about a new website dedicated to cultism in general,to that dangerous decease of the 21 Century? There is a lot of good material could be found on Internet about it.Great book has been written on that subject which could be in the “library section” among with letters from ex-student which could be easily found under the “Letters from Ex-student”.No negativity but simply known facts about the FOF and Burton,including some of the greatest teaching dinners for example the one from a few month ago where erotic pictures were shown with two Egyptian man standing both with an erect penis on which Burton had comment “Short penis represents a short BE and long penis represent the long BE.” What a classic video!
How much use we could do to others by bringing all scattered pieces together?
I am willing to donate 244 dollars for that project.
Any suggestions?
lowselfkingofclub@yahoo.com
February 27, 2007 at 9:34 am
One of the things that keep a student going in the school (besides other things) is the “verification” that “it works”. I very much remember saying this to myself for years: “It works, it works”. I heard my very dear friends say about the sequence: “it works”.
Well, may be it’s worth looking at it sincerely, and see what do we call “works” and most importantly – on WHAT it works. And to make an honest observation about the results – are they actually lasting? Does something really permanently change?
Something in us does get stronger – but may be it’s our ego under the fashionable new name “higher self”? May be it is the very part that should “die” that gets strengthened as a result of our “efforts” and gets proud of it’s achievements?
May be that’s why it feels so right, so good – it works, I did it, I am good student. There is a proud feeling every time something “works”, isn’t it? Did you wonder, why?
We give so much value to high states. All of a sudden it’s all about high states and “accumulated moments of high states”. Well, then by this logic any drug user is way ahead of us, and a drunk may be conscious with all his accumulated states…Some drunks in fact are never out of these high states – my neighbor, for instance is pretty much always high and drunk…
I heard some friends say : I am almost there, I just need more efforts… How does one know that he is “almost there”? Almost – where?
The donkey may feel similar about the carrot tied in front of him – just run faster and you gonna get it. Just a little faster.
More high states, little more… Almost there.
If “we are the state”, as we were told, then – what happens when state is gone? We are no more? We basically must dissapear into the air… But it seems like this is not true – we are obviously still here…We cannot be just gone with the state, something stays. In fact, we are always here, aware, alive, conscious and never gone. Regardless of states. It may appear that our mind got lost in imagination. Well, are we our mind? Why worry then. May be – we are NOT the states… Then what are we?
Have you ever questioned this, just for fun?
What happens when we do the sequence – (Yes, I have done it too.) Just like in religious prayer, mind slows down and we experience a brief more or less higher state which goes away very quickly. We are told then to repeat the sequence. Now, can you spend your whole life doing this? Repeating and repeating? Just to catch a disappearing state, like some kind of buzz? Does it bring one any closer to realizing the truth of who we are, does it actually “work”? May be we are just saying so to ourselves…
Aren’t you missing out on the present moment by repeating a slow bulky sequence again and again?
Just think with me please, don’t get angry, just take an honest look. And you are so welcome to write what you think, it is truly interesting.
After 20+ years hunting for higher states it may be time to consider the possibility thet may be WE are not STATES. May be things are more simple and actually, attainable, or, better, available.
What watches the play, what experiences it all including the states, what is aware right now – is not a state. It’s not happening to a “person” or “ego”. It is not even “mine” or “yours”.
Just feel the aliveness of it, acknowledge the fact of simple presence.
Wasn’t it there always, just like this – watching, just experiencing -all of it, high and low, good and bad – like a mirror- reflecting it all…Unchanging,impersonal, ever-present, alive, here and now…
It’s not a state. States can be observed. This is – what observes all states, states happen in it. We are IT. This is our true nature.
No need to “create” it, to “work” on it, to “prolong” it, to “become” it. You are already it and always been… This quiet watching, knowing, being, since we were very little kids. Just recognize it, experience, feel it, see it for yourself and it will become your true identity.
When one gets finally tired of “working” it simply becomes seen. Not by personal achievement or effort, but by the very giving up of trying. It’s like some simple truth, that permeates your being once you stop frantically jumping and pushing to achieve something and simply keep still and quiet for a little bit.
I think that giving up the idea that something might “work” is the hardest thing. We’d rather try this and that, right? What if “this will work”? Giving up the “doer” and “effort maker” means death for the imaginary (pretty) picture. It’s so scary, and unreal doesn’t want to die, so it will keep “working” and “making efforts”.
How about just stop, right here right now.
malaec@yahoo.com
February 27, 2007 at 1:24 pm
Only few words you need to live your live,to be . Only you exist when you exist,what more ?
All that is not you ,is nothing.So ,you need exist ,first of all.
February 27, 2007 at 1:35 pm
Philip (234): No need to thank me, I enjoy (and learn from) reading everything that’s written. It is a pleasure.
Sharon (237), part 1: You are absolutely correct, I usually moderate 10 comments at once (meaning that roughly 10 people will comment on the same topic).
Sharon (237), part 2:
When I compare my life “before” and “after”, there is no way that I would choose to not have what I received there.
This comment is especially interesting. I have been trying to figure out the connection between trauma/suffering and personal growth for some time now. One thing that I am certain of is that the two are connected and strongly so.
Four years ago I was bullied and persecuted quite severely (for the first time in my life) and chose, without realising, to live in social seclusion. One of the results of that time were quite definite changes in my personality and the things that I liked. Suddenly I started liking art, nature, beauty,… it was as if my senses opened up and new abilities jumped in. I was sad and depressed, yes, but I had my first spontaneous higher state and I started receiving gifts in the form of the ability to experience my life more fully.
This has continued since, I have been having a trouble here and there for the past 4 years, there is definitely some baggage that I am only now coming to terms with, there is other baggage that I am not quite ready for. Yet, there are so many new things that I have learnt to appreciate and new ‘abilities’ (for lack of a better word) that I acquired.
I am not the only one. I know quite a lot of people who have been much worse of. They suffered in childhood, were raped,… and now they are labeled to ‘suffer’ from mental difficulties (manic depressive, schizophrenic,…). Strangely enough, all of them appreciate things that normal people hardly ever glimpse. Many are capable of entering higher states, most are far more intelligent and knowledgeable than normal people. The only problem is that they are unable to operate in modern society.
You all know that suffering is one of the ways by which you can enter higher states (whether physical or psychological suffering), but the importance of it is elsewhere.
I am almost certain now that suffering is necessary in order to arrive to certain truths and revelations. It can ‘open you up’ to seeing things in a new light. To me, this is a reason to accept suffering for what it is and appreciate what it has given you, as well as taken from you.
On the whole, I feel like I circled around in my life, coming back to myself as I was before I joined, but with far more understanding. Understanding of what, you might ask? (225)
I feel the same way. I am only who I used to be, but the new-found knowledge and has made it wortwhile journey. I don’t think that I am capable of stopping that journey now.
No Person (240): I agree. I prefer to use higher states as a form of self-exploration and then work with the insight gained when I am not there anymore. I found that higher states can ‘give’ you things (the abilities I was talking about earlier), but I am not sure that it is possible, or indeed desirable, to be in a higher state all the time.
I also believe that it is a shame to concentrate solely on the Fourth Way (or Buddhism for that matter) and disregard all other sources of information. As much as I have missed out on the Fourth Way and now am catching up, some of you seem to have missed out on other things. The contrasts, and the ever-present similarities between teachings, make it easier for me to figure out what works/makes sense and what does not.
February 27, 2007 at 2:43 pm
In or out of the Fellowship, if something is really worth saying it can always be said in very few words.
February 27, 2007 at 3:09 pm
Once verified truth cannot be take away even when you pass it on poorly. “No Pain No Gain”.
To Innernaut who has not read Maurice Nicoll
Psychological Commentaries. The pages refered to are about two WORK words. Inner and external consideration. To quote from the book, “WHEN LIFE BECOMES ONE’S TEACHER THEN THE HIGHEST WORK IS REACHED”.
February 27, 2007 at 5:43 pm
It’s great to discover you all, my friends on this site. For me it’s hugely beneficial to reflect on my time in the school and after.
I wonder if we could create something similar to the late FOF discussion list, I think the emial format would be easier to use. Especially with the quantity of messages written every day.
Does anybody know how to create such a thing?
privetrita@hotmail.com
February 27, 2007 at 6:17 pm
To #243 — you are indeed the Master of BS.
By your logic, the collected works of Shakespeare could be condensed into this sentence.
I would refer you back to Kid Shellen’s comment (#229): “Who told you this and why do you believe it?” Short is not necessarily better. Personally, I like long posts. I am a reader and a writer and I love a good story, or to see the process of someone working through their thoughts.
Your comment is nothing more than a fortune cookie aphorism — I’ll take 10 pages of real writing over a single useless sentence like this any day.
Which brings me to Sharon’s post (#237) — please don’t think it was too long. I found it very interesting and informative, and would have been happy to read more.
This blog is a conversation. Do good conversations consist of people tossing single-sentence quotes and platitudes back and forth? BOR-ING.
February 27, 2007 at 7:08 pm
Another thought regarding Sharon’s post (#237): I had a similar experience in the FOF, where my own interests did not always overlap the officially approved ones sanctioned by Robert. I too am a musician, and while I had liked classical music before the school, I prefered (and still prefer) to play rock, country, swing and bluegrass. The pressure to conform by abandoning these things was tangible and stifling, and filled with a particularly nasty strain of judgment. I also love contemporary literature and have found, to my surprise, that I enjoy abstract art (Mark Rothko, etc). Now I easily see that Robert suffers from the “If it’s not old it can’t be good” disease, but to my mind that just shows a lack of vision and understanding. It’s amazing what you can learn about your own tastes when you free yourself from the “shoulds” of others.
A word about verification — while lip-service was paid to the idea, it was only that, in my experience. Students said “verify everything,” and in the next sentence said, “Okay, take off those blue jeans and don a suit, talk like this, listen to this music, read this book — act like all the other students!” There was no time allowed to verify the value of the external requirements, at least.
As to verifying the less tangible, like Influence C, I can only say that these kinds of verifications can be very deceptive — again, in my own experience. One thing I have learned is that I see what I want to see, and I think this is how we as humans function. If you are trying to verify that C Influence provides shocks in the form of the number 44, you will see 44’s everywhere. Now I suppose students see pyramids or 6’s everywhere. It’s the nature of the world, what Jung called synchronicity. It’s like we are continually putting ourselves in different channels, and we see what’s in that particular channel. Robert used this fact of reality to try and say the FOF had an exclusive connection with Influence C, but it is available to everyone, in my experience. The fact that it extends beyond the FOF and the 4th Way does not diminish its miraculous nature for me, it increases it.
In fact, on another part of the Sheik’s website here, there is a wonderful story about synchronicity involving a teapot — I highly recommend it. So I’m not saying these connections aren’t out there, just that they are far more generous and widely available than Robert ever wanted us to believe.
Sheik, I think I understand what you are saying in #242 about suffering, and to a large extent I agree. I encountered a particular danger in this area in the FOF, however. It was the idea that suffering was needed to awaken, to which was added the idea of “voluntary suffering,” which meant intentionally making myself suffer in some way. That in turn produced in me a kind of ongoing self-flagellation, that spiralled down to the overwhelming sense that if I felt happy I was doing something wrong — I wasn’t working on myself, I wasn’t suffering, suffering, suffering. It was unhealthy in the extreme, and freeing myself from this mental prison required leaving the FOF, and was one of my primary reasons for doing so. This is not to contradict what you said in any way — just my experience in this area, and maybe something to look out for.
Sorry, Master BS, that I couldn’t condense all that into a knowledge McNugget. ;^)
Later
February 27, 2007 at 7:21 pm
The agony of the Galeria,
Conscience,
The beauty of this blog,
Thanks Sheik
If we are all nothing
Living this bodily existence now
No judgment, nor condemnation…?
Watch the clouds and the flowers.
The storm subsiding, green grasses grow
Thanks to everyone
Talk to your friends to get the CD of Adya..
To help you understand that it is now
And now does not need a wreath or decoration.
Love to all of you.
February 27, 2007 at 8:03 pm
Thank you Rabbi, #238, for your post. This has troubled me for some time. My “states” don’t justify what happens to other people, nor can I, in good conscience, endorse the exploitation of others with my silence and my payments. Please, everyone, don’t bury this issue. It matters. It matters a lot.
By the way, Rabbi, there was a Russian who tried to run away a year ago. Got as far as Las Vegas before he had someone from the Galleria come and pick him up. Don’t know what his story was — obviously, there were no formal announcements — but I expect he had very few options in Nevada.
February 27, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Miles Barth a man #5 (?) once photographed me as a Jack of Clubs. At the time that was suffering and unverifiable. Maybe it was ‘personality’ that suffered. Whatever suffered it did not die.
February 27, 2007 at 8:38 pm
Philip (#234) asked: “How to get to the point where throughout one’s life, one accepts everything just as it is, as part of one’s unfolding moment-to-moment experience? Is some effort necessary? Why am I not there yet?”
Someone once said that the worst thing a writer can do is to quote him/herself, but what the heck. I think what I wrote in post #168 might be one facet to your question:
“Something remarkable happened around that time. I understood, and experienced, that you can’t make awakening happen. The harder you work for it, the further away it goes. To break my rule about not using work language (and why not, I don’t live by these silly rules anymore), awakening becomes an “A influence” object of desire.”
There are other (and perhaps better) posts that address this as well (Truth Budd in #162, for example). I personally don’t find this off topic at all, but quite pertinent. In my opinion, of course.
February 27, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Rabbi Burns (#238) — this post is particularly alarming. I think many of us have given Robert our inner diagnosis as “pathological,” “narcissistic,” and so on. But this goes beyond that. To me, this behavior, if true (not that I doubt you, Rabbi, just that I have no way of witnessing it for myself), crosses over into actual criminality. Certainly in the sense of being spiritually criminal, but maybe even statutorily as well. If there’s not a law against this kind of thing, there should be.
Also, Philip (#234) — I think “no person” (#240) offers an excellent answer to your question, along the lines of what I was trying to say.
February 27, 2007 at 9:06 pm
Okay, one more thing and I promise to shut up for awhile.
To “Anonymous” (#244), who made reference to Maurice Nicoll’s Commentaries — I appreciate the quote you cited. Would you like to elaborate? Thanks.
February 27, 2007 at 9:49 pm
in 1999,after 15 years of working on myself, I left the FoF. I wasn’t negative at or about Robert; at that time I didn’t know a quarter of what I know now. I actually thought he might be what he professed to be, but that didn’t make any difference to me anymore. Something had been gnawing at my insides for several years and finally that fall, it erupted into my life in many ways. Leaving the fellowship was just the first of many, very “un-me” things I’d do.
What launched me out was my realization that I had become a Fundamentalist in my thinking. I went to meeting after meeting hoping to hear something that was not the same old regurgitated dogma. No luck. I couldn’t speak the truth, nor could my friends. I’d hear myself spouting angles, all the time thinking, “I don’t really know that for certain.” I thought Ouspensky said that the fouth way was dogma-free. No luck there, either.
At the same time, unprocessed parts of my past started to haunt me. I was just to leap over them and be in the present, right? This became harder and harder to do. I had heard many times, from many students that the school was not psychotherapy. “If you have issues, take them to a therapist, do not bring them to meetings.” If you can’t share the truth of your life with your friends, who can you share it with?
So I decided it was time for something new. I knew I needed to work through a lot of my past and I knew the FoF was not going to be any help. I also knew that I needed a new way of thinking and being.
After leaving, a lot of extraordinary things happened, and I realize now what I Don’t Know. All that is a tale for another post. Glad to hear your stories; and as Bob said: “Don’t follow leaders/Watch your parking meters.”
February 27, 2007 at 10:34 pm
Suffering -way of the monk- causes crystallization, fixative. Bennett was obsessed and crystallized from it, hence no evolution for him, could not give it up, addictive. Same of Ouspenski, addicted to mind. Danger, addictive too, Nothing succeeds like excess.
Fourth Way made to be used in life not cloistered community. Changes according to time, people, needs of planet. Gurdjiev left experiment, foundations then make religion out of experiment. Where source of teaching? Blog good for catharsis, maybe.
February 28, 2007 at 12:48 am
To #245.
The FOF ‘discusssion forum’ was didbanded because its low and pathetic level was not worthy of the Fellowship. Let the dead bury their dead.
February 28, 2007 at 2:26 am
To #256, the Master of BS, and “let the dead bury their dead”:
Wow, you have a quote for everything. Do you ever do any thinking for yourself?
February 28, 2007 at 3:14 am
The current level of doubt about the school and the teacher is resulting in significant attrition. This happens historically of course, but there is a difference this time; these are the earners (and contributors) of western currency – for whom there are no replacements these days. Hence, one would imagine the fallout would have significant economic impact upon the fof….
Yet, the teacher has acted quickly to remove those members that may challenge in some way the current ideology, seeming not to consider the economic implications.
Given his more historic ability to make subtle shifts according to the pulse of his public (delivered to him mostly by intelligent advisors) , recent events seem slightly out of character. Yes there have been efforts to ‘explain’ the madness. ‘Evolution of a School’ being one of the more pitiful examples. But there is a nagging feeling that he (or his advisors) have become reconciled to the situation, and have accepted that the memership will continue to diminish. So then come the usual theories about the demise of the school – the madness of the leader – not only on ideological, but economical grounds – always a comforting thought to those of us that are on the way out.
Have you considered that there might be some advantage to the group in losing those that dissent most loudly?
Have you considered that the loss of revenue is not as important as it may seem?
Have you considered that existing assets might be more easily channelled the fewer there are to scrutinize them?
Have you considered that there is a generous retirement/lifestyle package in the making?
Have you considered that downsizing is going to be a great move?
‘It doesn’t matter to me’.. ‘I am happy for all those years’ nay, ‘He deserves all of it for the wonderful states – it was a great ride’ ….yes, yes.
How about those others, that gave up everything to it – their money, their carreers, their families, their sanity, – it goes on.
Funny how we still prefer to put this, and much else, aside – even afterward.
What IS that?
February 28, 2007 at 4:43 am
This is in reply to a request from many posts ago, by a couple of contributors.
At the end of my post (72) I stated I would try and say something about my attempts at rebuilding, reaffirmation and re-gaining confidence and self-esteem, all of which had been pretty much knocked out of me at the time of me upon leaving FOF.
I had spent the best part of 12 years with this group and what seems like an equal amount of time trying to either come to terms with what took place and / or trying to adapt back into the real world. I would even say that it was only in the past couple of years that I’ve been able to press on with a new found confidence in myself and by that I mean not being over critical about everything I do. Years of attempted “Self remembering” can result in what I can only call a hypersensitivity to self, which can border on self obsession.
As with the end of a marriage, divorce is only the physical severing, one has usually decided to leave one’s partner long before. Prior to that there is often a period of looking around, flirting with other possibilities. A few months before I left the FOF I spent a most enlightening long weekend at the White House – a retreat in San Francisco where a Sufi Sheik had come to give a three day work shop on Sufism – an area I had always felt an affinity toward. Though I did not pursue what was on offer, I later realised what had made those three days so special was the need to balance the cold and impersonal state my efforts of self-remembering had reduced me to. I seemed to have developed a dispassion to life around me, which seemed completely at odds as I felt more aware of my surroundings that ever. But it was the quality of that awareness which was troubling. Essentially I was lacking that quality called “love”, which some of you have already identified as being deficient in the FOF. I realise the word “love” is a charged word, but it is the best there is to describe those qualities of compassion, humility and respect for others – words which were often uttered but so often lacking in practice.
I am struck by the number of students, like myself, who at the point of leaving the FOF go in search of some alternative system, be it Zen, Sufi, Buddhism – possibly to discover that missing component mentioned above. This is all very well, as long as one doesn’t loose sight of the fact that this is a “self” healing process and while it is always tempting to go try and seek out someone who could do it for us, the effort eventually resides within ourselves and hinges on our capacity to assume responsibility.
I recall at the time of leaving I was torn whether to seek out fellow ex-students. What stopped me was the thought that we might both be tempted to re-enforce our individual grievances about Burton and the Fellowship which I did not feel this was the right way to go about the healing process. We all know how tempting it is to want to spout off one’s anger when one feels one has been wronged, when what is really required is to provide oneself the breathing space and time to try to understand what has occurred. However, I realise this might be different for various students.
For those who read my post (72) you will recall I remarked that I felt that during my years in the FOF I had become a divided person. I would even go as far as to say that I exhibited symptoms of “schizophrenia” as I certainly observed moments when my thoughts and actions would be running totally contrary to one another, as if trying to compensate each others behaviour. One might argue that a true schizophrenic would not be able to observe this and fortunately I don’t this I was, however it was useful to gain an understanding about this condition.
So it probably wasn’t any coincidence that one of the first people I turned to was C G Jung. In my new found solitude I spent most of my free hours reading the bulk of his works – and he wrote a lot. Though most of it was interesting, I recall certain moments when I could really relate to what he was describing and I felt I had found a companion who had struggled with his interpretation of self-realisation (Individuation) through his own endeavours, but at the same time based on for the most part scientific observation.
Jung also helped me re-establish the ego (I) in my life. Giving it a worth and a usefulness – which like the rudder of a boat is necessary to guide us through life and how we relate to our surrounding as individuals. Yet at the same time warning of the dangers if one identifies with it.
Which leads me on to another interesting area: dreams.
I have never smoked in my life – apart from the odd drag on a cigarette – mainly out of curiosity. However upon talking to a once full time smoker who had given up, he mentioned that for a long time afterwards, asleep at night, he would dream he was inhaling on a cigarette.
Likewise for many years following my departure from the FOF, I would dream about revisiting, being in arrears with payments, having some contra-temps with Burton. Some of these dreams were so vivid that I would often wonder if they were fact and if I was still a member of the fellowship. That was until I woke up. It was all quite spooky stuff and though I was tempted to try to provide some interpretation a la Jung, I felt it was best to simply allow the dreams / nightmares to emerge and come to light.
And here is the crux of something very important in our individual healing process. We must allow those dark, shadowy places within us to reveal themselves. For many I’m sure this forum provides such a vehicle for that, hence the often long and impassioned posts. Exposure in this way is anathema for those parts of us which like to hold on to our grievances and dwell on them. In so doing we can become like a blocked drain with all the crud backing up which in turn poisons our thoughts and our perceptions. So we must try to get the stream flowing again. I always wondered why the Essenes placed so much emphasis on bathing rituals, but now I realise how pure running water is such a wonderful metaphor for inner spiritual cleansing.
What I observed for many years was the need to blame someone or something. Of course Burton was the first target and indeed he still has a lot to answer for the way he has blatantly misled and usurped his position of power to manipulate others and to feed his appetites (I was certainly on the receiving end of this). But there are countless examples of figures in history who have done the same and much worse and one can only assume that if there is any divine retribution they will have to pay for it in some way or other. What was probably more tragic for me was the fact that I was also blaming the “Work”. It had now become synonymous with Burton. To rectify this took a lot longer to achieve and it is only recently that I’ve been able to approach ideas (much more than the 4th way), with a re-newed vigour and a thrill which I experienced those many years ago when first encountering the system.
Finally there was myself to blame. How could I have been such an idiot by letting myself be conned for so long?
During my time at Renaissance (or Isis), Burton used to have the quote of the day displayed outside the gatehouse at the entrance of the property, so those driving into work would be greeted by an edifying thought. One day I looked up to read: “To err is humen, forgive divine”. (Note the spelling. I’m sorry if it challenges the readers with English as a second language.) “To err is human, to forgive divine” – to strive to forgive oneself and others.
But then not all my years in the FOF were hardship. Yes, the physical work was long and tiring, but as a youth in my early twenties it was a fun place to be. An exclusive club where you could drink copious amounts of wine, entertain the women and burst into song – if that was your scene. All one had to do was to divest one’s responsibility for oneself on to the Teacher and what was required in return was the need to obey a few exercises and try to self-remember as much as possible. At least so it was in the beginning!
The real problems began when I had to start taking responsibility for myself. These mainly centered around the need to face some difficult decisions relating to the moral and ethical behaviour as result of Burton’s attentions which were being directed my way. But there was also my own behaviour, notably in the way I was treating others, which I soon realised to be equally contemptuous in it’s own way. However these were decisions I was willing to put off facing for a long time, until I reached a point where the inner conflict was doing more harm than good and I was finally compelled to act.
Why was I willing to put up with this unpalatable behaviour for so long? I think it was because we were constantly told that such a liberal flaunting of such values was the “divine” right of the teacher – the perk for becoming conscious (if one can call it a perk). How mistaken is this belief – if anything should it not be the teacher leading by example? While as human beings we require some form of moral framework – after all such codes of behaviour have been with us since the beginning of time, it is the truly enlightened individuals who are able to weave their magic within such a framework, for the possibilities of self development still exist without the need to challenge boundaries which might compromise or cause suffering to a vulnerable student / soul.
One aspect I always objected to in Burton’s teaching (possibly the 4th way in general) was the bad press “Imagination” always received. I agree there are unhelpful forms which involves a needless waste of precious energy and there was a tendency to focus in this area. However I was and still am a true advocate of the William Blake school when it comes to espousing the benefits of “creative” imagination, as being a door to realising higher possibilities. Perhaps this type of imagination was considered dangerous as it encouraged one to think beyond the limitations.
It is the power of the creative imagination which can afford us a glimpse of what is it to know God / Self / Absolute? An attempt at trying to solve that great, yet enigmatic question: “Know thy self”. For assuming God is: “everything we are and are not”, it follows that we cannot fully realise that state, without “being” that state. Yet by being it, the questions of knowing or not knowing are no longer relevant.
Not long ago I was listening to Woody Allen being interviewed on the radio and he produced one of his memorable lines: “But the truth is when you think about it for a while, you have to think that life is either tragic – I mean you can look around you and certainly see that – or else it is so tragic that all you can do is laugh at it.”
Now I realise Woody Allen has made exaggeration into a fine art. However like a good comedians he touches on a truth. For while there were certainly moments which bordered on tragedy, the only problem was that for many years I did not find an ounce of humour in any of it.
However, this has now begun to change and I am delighted to report that this very essential human quality has returned so I now find myself laughing at aspects of the past I would have previously looked at in horror. Though I realise that time can have the effect of making painful episodes appear comic on retrospect. However whether it was because it was so tragic I had no other option… well, I need to give that more thought.
Finally, last year I had the honour of meeting and spending many hours in conversation with Joyce Collin-Smith, the sister in law to Rodney Collin, who not only new him intimately, but also travelled with him while he was creating his centre in the Mexican caves.
She is still a sprightly lady in her 90s, with a mind as sharp as someone half her age, though her body has taken the beating of the years.
During our conversations she helped me put many things in perspective regarding the “work” and all the stuff that surrounds it. She is no nonsense woman and lays her cards on the table. She has also written several books, one of which I especially recommend. Entitled, “Call No Man Master”. It relates her experiences with many well known Western teachers. As she says, she has sat at the feet of most of them. For those who are interested, her Web site is: http://www.joycecollinsmith.co.uk
What strikes me when I hear or read about these various groups / cults is how they seem to fit into a similar mould. The signs are there, which now seem so obvious, but to which at one time we were once so blind. But then perhaps it was a process we needed to go through and we can only be grateful that we are here and are able to see it. To cease struggle and blame and allow the whole experience to wash over us.
And that is all I have to say. Whether I have succeeded in what I set out to do, even in part, really doesn’t matter. The fact that I had to think about it and then make effort to put it into some sort of order, was reward unto itself. However, you will be happy to know that from now on I shall content myself by reading what others are saying in their posts – all of which I read and find endlessly fascinating.
Simon
P.S. Hello Charles Taylor – we shared a room once in our heyday, as well as many an enjoyable conversation, numerous bottles of wine and plenty of good music. But then we were younger then, weren’t we? As Dylan Thomas put it:
Nothing I cared, in the lamb white days, that time would take me
Up to the swallow thronged loft by the shadow of my hand,
In the moon that is always rising,
Nor that riding to sleep
I should hear him fly with the high fields
And wake to the farm forever fled from the childless land.
Oh as I was young and easy in the mercy of his means,
Time held me green and dying
Though I sang in my chains like the sea.
(Two letters in my name are true…)
February 28, 2007 at 6:21 am
In FOF we are told not to judge “life”.
And here’s today’s daily card from Robert himself:
In life everyone is the lower self, so they do not see it as a problem.
Love, Robert
Basically they all suck and they all are below us who are higher self. It sounds so free of judgment and full of love and compassion… No discrimination at all between students and life people.
What shameless hypocrisy.
February 28, 2007 at 7:32 am
X man low self wrote;
“I remember one dinner with Robert when Dorian………… was showing a pictures which had a gate with some creatures all around it..I set close so I could count them all.There were 28 creatures which I counted 3 times. But for Robert that was 30.”
28 creatures count three times is
84 creatures
84 or 8 + 4 is 12!
12 is 1 + 2 = 3
3 + 12 is 15 and
15 as Robert has told us many times IS 30!
You were counting with formatory mind – dummy!
February 28, 2007 at 9:28 am
I woke up this morning (just normally, not in any sublime way). I checked if the Oneness of things was with me, and it seems it wasn’t. I decided then to get coffee and start from there…
Things get better after coffee…it started to snow. Oregon House is suddenly a different world, the snow covered everything…I cannot find a single thought anymore, just beauty.
I could be anywhere in the world, but, for some strange reason I ended up here.
A lot of my friends live here. A lot have moved somewhere else. Some are writing on this site (actually all my friends are, and if they were not my friends before, now they are).
I hate the member/non member distinction,
the high and low distinction,
good and bad, awaken or asleep.
I don’t like the “we are all conscious bro'” kind of thing and even less the “we are all asleep” kind of thing.
I hate people that said “I hate” this or that.
You can see for yourself what kind of damage this School can do to a normal ‘fellow’.
Cheryl, thank you for being so open.
Adios
February 28, 2007 at 11:33 am
Wow, Master of BS. You truly are…a Master. Of BS. Speaking of which, and with reference to post #238, was anyone here present when RB had a young man named Jack defecate on a glass coffee table as part of a symposium? That story always cracked me up.
February 28, 2007 at 12:17 pm
Regarding Rabbi Burns’ post#238 – This reminds me of the following story from Gurdjieff:
“There was a magician. He lived deep in the mountains and the forests, and he had thousands of sheep. But the problem was that the sheep were afraid of the magician because every day the sheep were seeing that one of them was being killed for his breakfast, another was being killed for his lunch. So they used to run away from the magician’s place, and it was a difficult job to find them in the vast forest. Being a magician, he used magic. He hypnotized all the sheep and told different sheep…to some, “You are a man, you need not be afraid. It is only the sheep who are going to be killed and eaten, not you. You are a man just like I am.”
Some other sheep were told, “You are a lion — only sheep are afraid. They escape, they are cowards. You are a lion; you would prefer to die than to run away. You don’t belong to these sheep. So when they are killed it is not your problem. They are meant to be killed, but you are the most loved of my friends in this forest.”
In this way he told every sheep different stories, and from the second day, the sheep stopped running away from the house. They still saw other sheep being killed, butchered, but it was not their concern. Somebody was a lion, somebody was a tiger, somebody was a man, somebody was…. Nobody was a sheep except the one who was being killed.
This way, without keeping servants, he managed thousands of sheep. They would go into the forest for their food, for their water, and they would come back home, believing always one thing: “It is some sheep who is going to be killed, not you. You don’t belong to this mob. You are a lion — respected, honored, a friend of the great magician.” The problems of the magician were solved.”
February 28, 2007 at 12:59 pm
I´m been in FOF since 14 years and like John, I´m not in economical crisis because School, etc…
Probably if Gurdjieff would exist in these days, would have another forum like this or worse.
Robert ask for money, yes, but all the money goes to build the city called Isis, a city that he is not the owner, is the FoF, he is going to die probably in 15 years, but he works at incrible path to follow with this aim, and this city is what will be there after 50, 100, 200 years, something beautifull for this terrible world, a song of beauty and light to those that want to see.
Right now, All people can visit this city, it is not a monastery, it is a community, and the things that this city can evoke in you, only can be transmited if you go there and experiment with a clean heart, you can visit without be a member.
Robert has never been in jail, so let the justice decide who is pedhofile and who not. People who join the School is asked to have more than 18.
The spiritual path is difficult one, everyone knows that. We as School has more than 35 years, and I don´t think we are a dangerous one, we can be mistake, Robert has made many of them, we may also be distorting the fourth way (please go to http://www.gurdjieff-ouspensky-centers.org/english/events/newsletter_archive.shtml to verify it for yourself) or what people called fourth way (even Ouspensky says you have to rebuild the system), but at least this School provides a safe (phisical at least) way to experiment a interpretation of the 4th way, and use it for your own evolution, if you have the right attitude.
Best Regards,
The Dharma is only a collection of words and letters that has to be discarded when we have reached the other shore.
Gampopa
February 28, 2007 at 1:44 pm
Remember: Sticks and stones may break our bones, but words can do permanent damage.
February 28, 2007 at 1:45 pm
First, I would like to apologize for letting people like the ‘Master of Bullshit’ post freely. The reason I let them post is so that the conversation does not become too one-sided. There is a definite voice of discontent with what’s being said here and I believe that it is important to make that clear. Letting people like ‘Master of Bullshit’ post here is a far bigger punishment to them than it would be to silence them. Having said that, obscenities will not be tolerated.
tbb45 (255): I believe that you misunderstood me. It is far less important that suffering can be used as a tool to the attainment of higher states, than it is to realize that suffering makes you able to appreciate how it feels not to suffer. Suffering makes it possible for some people to put things into perspective and change their lives to the better.
There is a famous quote by Rudolf Steiner that would explain what I am trying to say much better, sadly I can’t seem to be able to find it anywhere. Its message is simple though, the only reason for the existence of evil is so that good can triumph over it. The only reason for suffering is so that love and compassion can triumph over it.
As with other things, sometimes you have to take things away from people to make them realize how important those things were for them in the first place. If you strip a school of love, compassion, equality and dignity, then those qualitites will be missed and sought after.
Innernaut (247): This time especially, I feel like my grasp of English is stopping me from explaining myself clearly. I would never seek to invalidate you or any other ex-members by saying that the suffering you underwent in the FoF was for the greater good. There is no excuse for the kind of treatment and manipulation that the FoF enforces on its members. But once it happened, there are only two ways to deal with it. Become bitter and angry. Or use the knowledge gained from the suffering to grow into a fully balanced and content human being. I know which path has been chosen by the majority of the contributors to this forum.
February 28, 2007 at 3:41 pm
267: If I had a school it would be a ‘Common Sense’ one. It takes a long road for some people to come to simple understandings of what’s plain criminal and evil. For example, one student said to me that RB is giving ‘his’ boys a favor because they are usually so naive that they would perish ‘in life’ much quicker than with him.
We don’t trust our common sense to such extend that it’s easier to cover up internally what’s plainly wrong with our teacher than to start living by our own conscience.
One friend said that if you aware of RB activities and still stay in his school, you’re tainted by him. And a young and not ‘spiritual’ man I met heard some stories about RB from our friend and his reaction was: ‘that man should be beaten up until he repents’. Well, maybe it’s a bit extreme, but also to me it was a common sense healthy reaction from someone who wasn’t exposed to brainwashing.
I don’t think there’s too much suffering involved in differentiating right from wrong on any level, and one doesn’t have to be spiritual (actually it might get on the way of seeing things clearly) to see simple truths.
February 28, 2007 at 5:23 pm
This is for those who are unfamiliar with the fourth way and fof. The difference is vast.
According to legend Gurdjieff went about his area of the world collecting information from ‘those who know’ and ‘those who know everything’. Later Ouspensky met Gurdjieff and a collaboration occured. Dr. Maurice Nicoll a student of Jung studied the idea of human transformation (the work) with both Gurdjieff and Ouspensky. Rodney Collin was also a student and wrote wonderful books.
In order to UNDERSTAND one another ‘work words’ are given to facilitate the transformative process. Alchemy is a work idea and can also be found in Plato’s Republic. Excluding Robert Burton’s book the deck of cards is not in the work books but the idea is. Offering photographs is a technique to aid a student recognize his “at the moment” mechanicality.
I was once photographed as being “weird”. “weird” is not a work word. The photograph illicited inner considering. In “life” the photograph would have illicited a negative reply or a physical response. External consideration is a work idea that transforms intentional suffering according to one’s level of being. One is not responding in a stimulus/ response manner. External considering is akin to walkingin another’s shoes, especially when the other is notin cooperation with work ideas.
Some postson this blog are extremely negative and “unworkman” like. If they are an attempt to illicite inner considering or “poison the well” they have succeeded.
It’s a matter of being whether one is attracted to fourth way ideas. Life is shallow and it’s a matter of being whether one is attracted to the logic of philosophy or it’s wisdom.
I started out on my journey with a ninth grade education. You have served me well.
February 28, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Sheik (#267) — I don’t feel invalidated by your remarks. I think we are in agreement, and are perhaps speaking about different aspects of the same thing.
I was refering to a very specific kind of suffering — the so-called “voluntary suffering” where you intentionally make yourself suffer in some way, with the idea that you can use the energy that results to fuel a higher state of consciousness. Examples of this voluntary suffering might include depriving yourself of sleep on a regular basis, wearing shoes that are too tight, driving an extra-long way home from work, etc. I will leave aside the validity of such an approach for now. What I was refering to in my post (#247), was a particular pathological mental state that developed in me — it may be quite uncommon and peculiar to me, I don’t know, because every time I tried to talk to a student about what I was going through, they failed to comprehend what I was talking about, or at least seemed to.
What happened was, I went from using this “tool” of voluntary suffering, to becoming obsessed with the idea that if I wasn’t working in this way, then I wasn’t “working on myself.” This in turn led to the inner conviction that if I felt any happiness at all, that meant I wasn’t suffering, and therefore was not making efforts to awaken. As W.C Fields would say, “Result? Misery.” Yes, this is essentially a form of mental illness, and one that may be peculiar to my strange makeup.
Anyway, that’s what I was refering to Sheik, and I wasn’t presenting it in opposition to what you said, only an elaboration of my own bizarre (and painful) experience in this area.
I hope this helps clarify things. Thanks.
February 28, 2007 at 6:29 pm
Simon (#259) — please don’t make this your last post. It was a pleasure to read.
Regarding dreams and the FOF — I have had some as well, one of which was particularly powerful where I was in a meeting, though I knew I was out of the school. It remains in memory as vividly as any “state.” Which brings me to something else — I always thought Robert was too quick to dismiss the value and power of dreams. Intense dreams are as real a part of life as anything, in my experience, and can provide powerful emotional content and a rich sense of the mystery of things.
On another point, when I initially left the school I thought it was vital to my spiritual evolution to maintain a positive attitude toward Robert and the school. I kept this up for 10 years or so, before I realized I was sitting on a lot of anger, and maintaining a positive attitude wasn’t making it go away — the negativity actually began building in pressure and got worse, manifesting itself in a variety of physical and mental illnesses. Acknowledging my anger and working through it in different ways has helped me considerably in moving on, though it was an ugly and painful process for a while. However, I certainly acknowledge that this is my own experience, and your own will undoubtedly be unique to you.
Thanks again Simon for your wonderful post. And great quotes from Dylan Thomas and Woody Allen!
February 28, 2007 at 7:22 pm
I don´t know if the people that are talking here who says they were students, they really were. I don´t know if the letters of many people here are real or jus imagination.
Many letters of here just speak about other people, about the circunstances. but not what they do.
One can justify itself abut his poorly work.
February 28, 2007 at 7:39 pm
Hi Simon (Steven?),
If you’d like to get in touch, my email address is charlest@succeed.net.
Perhaps we can still “sing in our chains like the sea”, though the chains are considerably looser now!
Charles
February 28, 2007 at 7:41 pm
you might dislike the FOF or Robert Burton or it’s activities, as you might dislike many things in this world. You might express that, but for what purpose. Is disliking your aim? Do you think you do good? Are you better then them? Don’t make this blog worse then a scandal sheet.
February 28, 2007 at 9:22 pm
(Since English is not my mother-language, please forgive me for the not-so-good-English-writing.)
Socrate:
The unexamined life is not worth living.
I think, or ‘it’ think, one of the most important things I have to learn is building an attitude, or a tendency, to examine-my-own-life-always-and-everywhere.
One of the major principle of 4th way is: Don’t believe anything that you are unable to verify. So, whether someone is a false teacher or a school is not a real school is depend upon my own verifications, not others opinions.
Another worth contemplating angle is, just like Gurdjieff and many other wise men emphasized, “The enemy is within, not without.”
So, if we consider that there are 3 stages in life:
1st) Blame others or the environment.
2nd) Blame oneself.
3rd) Neither blame others nor blame oneself.
The 2nd is not so much different from the 1st. One just goes back and forth from the 1st to the 2nd. Both on these two stages one sees others as enemy.
If we step back a little bit, we can see quite clearly which stage we are in.
February 28, 2007 at 9:57 pm
To #259 Thank you Simon. I have been deeply moved by your sincere postings.
February 28, 2007 at 10:20 pm
Your opinion of yesterday does not serve you today.
Where did G. find “information”. Mall-Wart? Marks & Sparks?? He was product of higher school.This is fact, not legend.
O, died sad,broken man,unable to make this contact. This is fact. G. sent many of his students with possibilities to source, why he never send O? This is fact.
Term “4th Way” invented by G. Why? True Way does not have a name, changes to fill need. What need? Raise level of humanity. 4th Way not all about me me me you you you school school school, this is pathological understanding. What is goal?
Man is a bridge between 2 shores. G. called man transforming apparatus. Paradigm of higher school not connected to present/past associations one has experience of.
February 28, 2007 at 10:23 pm
I didn’t think that I would be writing again, simply because I don’t find it as useful and as educational as reading , but post # 265 from “current student” deserves some attention.Question to you then: what kind of blindness or deep self-deception are you affected by in order to believe that the FoF money is only turned into tar for “our” roads or flowers for “our” gardens? MOST of it is turned into… SPERM (sorry, don’t mean to be vulgar, only truthful..).Do you even know ( and if you don’t , why don’t you take responsibility in getting better informed about your community life) how much money is spent EVERY MONTH in airplane tickets, visas, green cards, properties, jewelry, expenses, medical bills, Viagra pills, vibrators, cars, pregnant ballerina (and correlative expenses), fancy clothing for every old and new “MEMBER” in the harem etc.. by your beloved “teacher”?; that money is sucked out of the pockets and the labor of people that often end up having No choice at all, no means to move away even an inch. You have money? good for you.But have you at least had the honesty and courage to actually READ some of the posts ?There are not all coming from outsiders, you fool, many are written by students that came here for the same reasons you had for yourself, and lived in this same community , driving on your same precious tainted roads and admiring the same nice flowers, some of them for even longer then you have.THEY have seen it ALL.They don’t try to egoistically buffer Robert’s sexual perversion as you are doing , and justify it in the name of …..WHAT?Palms?Ballet?…The sequence??What a convenient position you have, but really, for you own sake…GET BETTER INFORMED and take it ONLY from there.Imagine being your own parent..what good advice would you give to yourself?
“Keep your eyes and ears close Dear, everything is fine, just ignore it..”…I don’t think so.Physically safe, you said?What the hell do you mean???…do you know how many sexually transmitted diseases are secretively treated by our fellowship doctors every year ? Do you acknowledge the trauma of those asked to PERFORM devious sexual acts ON Robert, including oral sex, defecation, urination and fist penetration? And Yes, they all came for their Souls, the Work and the Beauty….Actually this letter doesn’t mean to be personal to you,poor thing, but it is for all of those other “Current Students” such as yourself, oblivious and in deep, pathetic, denial. Enjoy your “City of Angels” my dear….
February 28, 2007 at 10:29 pm
P.S I have far more respect for those who acknowledge the suffering around them and decide to live with it , then people like yourself who pretend it doesn’t even exist…
February 28, 2007 at 10:54 pm
Dear Reader,
Tasty and juicy. Money and Sex. Scandle! oh yummy!
I am a member of the FOF. This site delights me! And I mean that in all seriousness. I joined the FOF, becuase of negative ex-students who gave me all this type of information some 15+ years ago.
I am grateful for sites like this. I think too many FOF students are nieve. I have observed many FOF members want Mr. Burton to be perfect, to know and be everything they need him to. They get caught up in the poitics of everything. And often they pass this “reverence” to those around him. uhg! and scary too. And they start doing the “work” for someone else, and no longer for themselves. At the same time, I have a feeling that these same people would have attached themselves to something, or someone, else that met, filled, that empty hole, and repeated this same action.
As to the sexual relations. Why do people say yes? I don’t know. I wouldn’t. I am a woman, don’t have deal with Mr. Burton, in that way. But I have had enough men pursue me in my time here, and before joining the FOF ….. If I say yes. That is my responsibility, if I say no, that is my responsibility. Even if it means the guy, who owns a plane and took me to top notch resturants stops doing that. What else do you expect. GROW UP people.
As to fear. I don’t understand why people are afraid. I have never been afraid. Particularly of Mr. Burton. Now, the people who surround Mr. Burton, and are his ears and mouths, they make me nervous. I don’t trust most of them. I think that most who puts themselves in that position “want” something, like power, the “good life” ect ….. But, Mr. Burton, never. What is there to be afraid of? If you are asked to leave the FOF, so what. If you stay, so what.
Think about it. There are a handful of previous FOF members on this site of a possible 20,000. Now, I know some of the 20,000. Run into many in different places. I say Hi, go to ask them how they are, what they are doing ect ….. and they give a cold shoulder. What can I say. It goes both ways.
And on a personal note, the ex-FOF members that I respected and adored when I met them here, I can see by their writings here, that the reasons I adored them, respected them has not changed. Because, they comport themselves with such dignity, no matter. Thank you for your continued inspiration in what it means to be a human being.
-to those family members who are concerened about your family members who are members of the FOF I hope that they choose to spend time with you soon. All I can say, is I am sorry that they should behave this way. Because even mr. Burton retained a relationship with his mother. And I like wise have retained a very closer relationship with my family, all of it.
– to the child of the FOF, I hope that someday you will forgive your parents for not realising how horrible it is to discover the nasties about the FOF from other sources rather than them. I don’t know why parents choose to not tell the kids. Irresponsible. But there is no “rule” not to tell.
-to the member of the FOF that is posting such negative comments about the FOF on this site. Quit wasting your money, and your time, by staying and complaining, just leave. If you choose to stay in anything, religion, cult, college, country, relationship ect …. when you are so disatisfied it is your own choice your responsibility. NOBODY IS FOURCING YOU TO STAY! Look if 20,000 can leave so can you!
What can I say to you. THIS YOUR LIFE, NOBODY CAN FORCE YOU TO BE OR DO ANYTHING. PARTICULARLY IN A COUNTRY LIKE THE USA WHERE PEOPLE CAN SUE, AND WIN $5 MILLION, BECAUSE MC DONALDS COFFEE WAS HOT. WHERE A PERSON CAN SUE AND WIN $ BECAUSE THE MICROWAVE COMPANY DIDN’T PUT A WARNING ON THAT YOU SHOULDN’T PUT A LIVE ANIMAL IN IT! Take your life, and live it! Make the very most of it. Live. Find joy.
Don’t wallow in the shallows and miseriesy. Life it too short. To precious! Live. Breath. Be. Good luck to all.
sincerely,
a current member of the FOF
grateful for this site.
February 28, 2007 at 11:44 pm
In response to post 234:
“Trying to get there for myself through 22 years of fourth way efforts didn’t work. Buddhism seems to suggest that one can get there, but only if one does it for others, as it were. That is, by choosing love over fear, compassion over judgment, service over selfishness.”
I think that one always has to do something for love of others. It comes down to External Consideration. We can not do anything, if we are not here. Yet, we must do as if we are here, and then maybe this will help compell us here.
When you love …. or more accurately, when you are filled by love. When you are in a higher state, perhaps what Mr. O and Mr. G refered to as a moment of CONSCIENCE everything is so simple. So clear. Full of such incredible meaning, depth, understanding, love for what IS. Acceptance of the good, the bad and the ugly.
In my studies of different esoteric traditions and the wonderful people that come from them. This was the one thing I understood. To serve and not lose yourself. To not lose yourSelf in service to others. To not lose your Self in service to others. Which, happens too regualarly. No matter what tradition you find, no matter what path you follow, or create …. if you lose your Self then ….. what? But how often, we, humans, lose our self to some external form, thought, idea. How often we don’t want to live in that space that requires of us the need to be active in the process of living our own lives. It takes so much energy. And it is hard taking responsibility for our actions. To not blame. But to realise we are where we are by some action of our own.
I remember one moment vivdly in my life that really illuminated my understading of Mr. G and Mr. O’s ideas. That in the expression of negative energy (nothing is good nor bad, but thinking makes it so, WS)a tremendous amount of energy is released. Have you ever felt like you were looking for a reason to get mad? The only understanding I can give. Is that certain types of energy is highly volitile. And in certain situations this energy is created. Like, for instance, a negative relationship split up …. what I saw in myself during one of these is …. I kept repeating the same thoughts. Like a broken record. I kept having to find new ears to listen, to agree with me, to say, oh isn’t he just a ……….. But, the odd thing is I hadn’t talked to him, nor had anything new happen inbetween me finding new people to talk to. SO, I thought, long and hard, about this action. What was it that was driving me to complain over, and over again. What I came up with was, that the situation had created, released a tremendous amount of energy. And I was very uncomfortable with this energy floating around inside. So, I was getting rid of it. hence Nothing is good nor bad but thinking makes it so. WS. Now, about the same time, someone wrote this quote from Buddha. “Forgivness is for the forgiver so he doesn’t carry it around anymore. But this does not mean he will let the same thing happen again.” These two ideas merged.
some simple thoughts on the beautiful subject!
be honest, take responsibility
live your life.
March 1, 2007 at 12:12 am
Rita, all that you have said could have been said 25 years ago. Those who stay, stay. Those who leave, leave. The fact that 80% of students leave is what keeps the School on such a high level. Those who stay accept the miraculous on its own terms, not on terms that their mother taught them.
March 1, 2007 at 12:20 am
Reading the posts about the Fellowship of Friends I believe that the group is not aligned with the fundamental principles 1, 5, and 7 below (minimum):
1 – There is only one highest reality and many teachers
2 – All humans and life arise from the same one source
3 – All countries, religions and institutions arise from that
4 – There are many books of wisdom from many ages
5 – Thinking that there is only one way comes from ignorance
6 – Coercive conversion is violence against other peoples
7 – The goal of life is found within, not in institutions
8 – Wisdom, joy and freedom come from inner stillness
9 – Love all, as we are all waves of the one ocean
Swami Jnaneshvara Bharati
March 1, 2007 at 12:29 am
By the (4th) way, if you would like to know more about the author of the 9 principles of my last post check his web site at:
http://www.swamij.com/swamijnaneshvara.htm
March 1, 2007 at 12:30 am
P.S. No one has ever been persuaded to join, and no one has ever been dissuaded from leaving.
March 1, 2007 at 2:29 am
It’s interesting to see more contributions from current FOF members.
Post #265: “this city is what will be there after 50, 100, 200 years”.
By “city” the writer means Isis. It’s not actually a city but a large piece of land from which the FOF once ran a vineyard. It’s covered with vines, mostly left to run to seed these days. There are some FOF buildings too. The centerpiece is the Galleria, where Burton lives with his young men and where FOF events are held. It’s surrounded by a small but attractive garden area.
Burton predicted that the world would end in 2006, with some kind of nuclear holocaust. Only Isis and the FOF members would survive. From them would come a new civilisation, based on blowjobs (sorry, the last three words were a joke, the rest is true). I guess the date must have been moved further into the future now.
Burton refers to Isis as a “city state”, although it’s obviously nothing of the kind. Presumably he’s referring to its future status. Anyway, FOF members are required to believe all this, or at least to pretend to believe it. Hence the statements in post #265. The writer appears to sincerely believe that the “city of Isis” will exist for centuries. I assume that the reason for the belief is simply that Burton said so.
Post #282 introduces a related FOF concept: “Those who stay accept the miraculous on its own terms, not on terms that their mother taught them.” This means that the FOF and Burton are accepted just as they are, with no questions asked. The “mother” is also known as “feminine dominance”. This means moral conscience, which must be put aside in the presence of the “miraculous”. Burton generally refers to “Influence C” as being the miraculous. This is “conscious influence’, a number of deceased “conscious beings” who are thought be be helping FOF students to awaken. Advanced students always claim to have “verified C influence”. This used to be achieved by spotting the number 44 on car number plates, but I’m not sure how it’s done now.
I’d be interested to know what the Master Of BS has actually experienced in the way of the miraculous, if he would be willing to share.
March 1, 2007 at 2:32 am
Tb45 (#277) wrote:
“Where did G. find “information”. Mall-Wart? Marks & Sparks?? He was product of higher school.This is fact, not legend.”
Did you know Gurdjieff personally? Were you there with him at the “source”? I didn’t think so. You read it in a book, or someone told you about him. This is the very definition of legend.
Fact? In the 4th way this is what’s known as a “lie.” Talking about something you can’t possibly verify as though you knew.
I do, however, agree with your first sentence, that our opinion of yesterday does not serve us well today. When I had been in the school a year, someone asked me if I felt certain I had “found it,” that is, found what I was looking for. “Yes,” I replied. I felt as certain as I could be then.
I left in 1989, so there you go.
March 1, 2007 at 2:39 am
Medusa — I’m glad you’re back in the mix. I appreciate what you have to say.
Inconvenient truth (#280) — it’s not so simple for many of us, I’m afraid. Yes, ideally we would all be intelligent in taking responsibility for ourselves, but in a situation like the fellowship where one’s participation is by definition one of giving of oneself from the deepest levels of sincerity, there is an extra burden on the teacher to respect that and not exploit it. It’s good that you have been able to establish firm boundaries, but what you said seems a little heartless, a little too much like blaming the victim for allowing oneself to be taken advantage of. Most of us enter the school with trust. The extraordinary degree to which this is taken advantage of is rather monstrous, in my opinion.
March 1, 2007 at 2:49 am
See, I can’t stay away!
Inconvenient truth – thanks for the absorbing read and please continue posting. What I value about this forum is that everyone is free to express their views and this in turn makes the place extra special in that it transcends boundaries.
Some of us have expressed how fed up we are with the duality of us and them, whether we are in or out etc. The truth is, it doesn’t matter one iota! we are where we are for our own reasons and we must respect that. By being critical or negative about those who are making the effort to post only makes this a poorer place and serves no one.
And here’s a sobering thought: During the end of the first millennium, Cordova in Spain was the intellectual well from which European humanity came to drink. Students from various European countries travelled there to sit at the feet of Muslim, Christian and Jewish scholars, to learn philosophy, science and medicine. This rich and sophisticated society took a tolerant view towards other faiths. Tolerance was unheard of in the rest of Europe. But in Moorish Spain, thousands of Jews and Christians lived in peace and harmony with their Muslim overlords. The society had a literary rather than religious base.
Let’s not go the way of least resistance – which currently in our fractured world takes the form of fighting over the identification with individual beliefs. If we follow that example we only poison the well. Besides it’s surprising what one hears if one bothers to listen.
Really, the only requisite here is we strive to be truthful…
Simon
P.S. thank you Vena for prompting me to create some order from the chaos.
March 1, 2007 at 3:29 am
Hi all – the link to this forum was made massively available today by somebody who mailed it to the entire list of FOF email addresses. Thank you all for the honest stories and posts. I am myself a fence sitter and on the way out, and now able to admit it frankly to myself. I joined at a time when I was in a bad place psychologically and the students in the school have been wonderful in helping me become more balanced, helping me to observe and understand myself and human relationships better. There are definitely things to be learned in the Fellowship, depending on where you are starting from. In the process, my whole external life has become wrapped around the FOF, so it is not an easy thing to leave. Like others, every time in the past I have felt this deep rift within myself trying to reconcile all the good positive experiences with all that was bizarre about the FOF, the answer was, like Philip said, to put the blame on myself: I must not be making use of all the opportunities presented to me; why do I think it will be better elsewhere if I’m not totally committed even to this path and am not using this school fully. As someone said somewhere else, there are many good people in the Fellowship trying to make the best out of a bad situation. And so you go about your days suspending judgment on the form of the teaching, trying to get inspired by Robert’s words, trying to translate his pronouncements into something that will make sense to you, explain them away, accept them somehow because after all that’s how Robert’s higher centers see the world, and if I lived from my higher centers I would understand. How is that different from “the Bible is right because it says so in the Bible”? And for periods at a time, I forget about the inner conflict, I buffer it, out of some sort of mental laziness, since I’ve already created my little world with my friends and events and that is taking me somewhere, the teacher is breaking ground for us so we don’t have to. Like hiring someone to manage your investments: in the same way you are paying to be in the school so your evolution is being taken care of. Now if you ask students, of course they will tell you that to make any progress, you have to not only pay teaching payments but also participate and make your own efforts. But subtly and in practice, laziness often creeps in. A kind of forgetfulness and preference of status quo. Don’t want to go through the mess of looking for a path again, or I’m too busy with my life right now to be thinking about these things, or yeah, a hundred people have raised this issue before, but the school still goes on, so what (as if that invalidates the issue). And of course, if you’ve invested 5, 10, 20 or more years of your life in being a member of something, well it could be a pretty big blow to imaginary picture of yourself if you had to admit that you were protecting some nonsense. I identify with a particular social group and so I start defending and downplaying the aspects of it that deeply and privately bother me, but I prefer not to think about disliking them because that would discredit me and my membership. And if I start disagreeing, it’s dangerous, who knows what my lower self will do next, mustn’t allow it any space to breathe. It is the Enemy! Others have amply described this good-bad type of self-censorship, so I will not repeat it. Anyway, the Fellowship is a fascinating and complex kind of sociological phenomenon. Someone should make a case study out of it.
Consider this: Robert’s decision to leave behind Gurdjieff and Ouspensky seems to have opened the door for this wave of non-dual understanding that appears to be sweeping through the school right now and causing people to distance themselves from the teaching or leave. And to me, the change is just wonderful. Robert said something to the effect that the time has come to go beyond Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, and maybe what is happening is the result of the going beyond. People leave not because they are not able to adjust to the new form, as someone said in a previous post, not because they are so hung up on the old system, but because they too have been feeling that Ouspensky and Gurdjieff had been exhausted and it was time for something new. When Robert officially declares no more G&O, the floodgates open and new worldviews are suddenly possible. Not necessarily worldviews promoted by Robert any more. People raise their head look around, and it becomes more apparent that the answer is not in battling the “enemy” and making more “efforts” to produce more “states”. It is more love, compassion and release of self-preoccupation. The missing ingredient. Charles, you mentioned in a previous post something very interesting, something about Indian sources and how they describe several different possibilities what can happen after a person has had a spiritual illumination. Could you explain in more detail, please? It might help me make sense of what is happening here… I’ve kind of always believed that Robert is not intentionally misleading us, that he really believes what he says and is doing his best to communicate something to us, however clumsily.
Rita suggested yesterday to have another place for reflection, since this single-page blog is getting longish and hard to read, and she asked if anyone knew how to do this. If you like, I can create a web-based discussion group where you can read posts on the web, or you could also receive emails if you choose to.
Again, thank you all for sharing your candid stories and for maybe getting to know you better than I ever knew you in the Fellowship. I am programmed to be very careful and tend not to express my doubts freely with people I don’t know that well, so I didn’t even realize how many others are out there with similar feelings.
March 1, 2007 at 5:02 am
Dear Philip, hello!
Your sincere question cought my eye. It’s so nice to have questions like this on this board, although I completely understand the joy of ripping FOF to shreds, and the joy of sharing our interesting stories – it all makes for a colorful reading. I really appreciate you bringing this question up though.
“So I have a question about it-… How to get to the point where throughout one’s life, one accepts everything just as it is, as part of one’s unfolding moment-to-moment experience? Is some effort necessary? Why am I not there yet?”
I believe that there is no way that “I” will ever get to this place. That’s bad news for the “me”. (Well, there is no “place” to get to either, but lets start with “I”) This is the whole trick. We imagine ourselves to be something we are not, sometimes for our whole life we place our identity in what we call “imaginary picture”, “me”, which makes it all very, very selfish and personal. And then this “me” wants to get somewhere and achieve something. By imaginary picture I mean the whole idea of a “me”, not just what we used to call “false personality”. All personality – false, true – it’s all an IMAGINARY PICTURE. It’s just a picture, and it’s imagined. It’s not going to wake up, it can’t. Because a “me” is nothing but unquestioned imaginary mental concept that seem to want to wake up. It doesn’t exist except for in our mind! It cannot achieve anything. It’s like working on dreams or hallucinations. Can you find a distinct solid “me” in the present moment?
Now if you listen to your mind it will give you all kinds of objections to that, and reasons that you really exist as a person. This is also part of the game. Mind stories and believing in them.
But if you will be able to actually OBSERVE and ACKNOWLEDGE that there is really just simple awareness, right here right now, looking through your body’s eyes, and the “person” is nothing but a dead picture in the mind – it may just click.
What happened for me is just that – it suddenly clicked. (Thanks to John Wheeler and his brilliant “pointers”!). Somehow at once it was seen that there is no separate “person”, but instead there is only this impersonal seeing, awareness. Before any thoughts. And then – enters mind telling stories and offering images of a “person”. And awareness is unmoved, taking it all in, impersonally… You can observe it, too, right now!
Now when mind enters it is just seen through as mind and stories. I AM – what sees it. There is no “me”. There is a character and a role in a play, but I AM what is aware of it, not only a character or a role.
All it took as a clear seeing. Just for few seconds, and this truly changed things. As if some well branched illusion got uprooted and vanished. A lot went with it – pretty much all unnecessary suffering connected to a “person”. And from then on – just what you said: there is acceptance of all things as they are, in fact – joyful acceptance. There is impersonal existance, with not being offended ot hurt by someone’s words, without judgment and fear. No identification! Really. Just resting in the now, in the complete unknown, joyful resting. Not passive, not indifferent – very alive and engaged in fact, so many wonderful things are around to be noticed and experienced. It happens naturally, as the “me” is seen through and drops away.
You ask if special effort is needed. NO!!! This is exactly what is NOT needed. Often you hear stuff like “surrender”, “give up”, “die to be born”. That’s what they all are trying to tell you – enough efforts. Just relax, see, acknowledge what you truly are (and see what you are not), right here right now. You have it all already, you are IT already, everyone is IT, presence-awareness is our common nature. Not tomorrow, not some other time – these are old mind games, don’t trust them. There is no time, just now.
“Trying to get there for myself through 22 years of fourth way efforts didn’t work.” – NO KIDDING!
“Buddhism seems to suggest that one can get there, but only if one does it for others, as it were. That is, by choosing love over fear, compassion over judgment, service over selfishness.” – May be the idea here that there is nothing personal in reality, in awareness, therefore it is very selfless by it’s nature, in fact it’s being said that it is Uncinditional Love. But there is no choosing or getting or doing – because all of it implies “me” who is selfish and who is the doer. “Me” doesn’t even exist – how is that he can do or choose? In reality – there IS only love, compassion and service, which is our true nature. The seemingly “bad” stuff stems of idea of a “me”. Mister Gourjieff (whom I don’t quote much these days) once said: ” There is no conscious evil.” I agree. The “devil” is imaginary, it’s in the mind, it’s the concept of “me”. And since devil lives in hell – so is the poor “me” lives in mental hell – always suffering, always hurting for something, complaining, afraid, offended, identified, jealous…No peace, no acceptance, no rest.
Self-inflicted Hell.
Hafiz said something like that (may not be exact) about the difficulty of meeting the Beloved: “The minute I walk out – He comes in”.
In my experience it is exactly like this! The minute you realize that there is no “you” – the same time the Beloved, the Consciousness comes in and takes over. (Well, it was there anyway, underneath the personality) And it doesn’t ever walk out. Who walks out – is “you”! And what the heck – he never existed in the first place, let him go, no big loss…
I promise, you’ll not going to miss “you” once he walks out…All the good stuff (love, compassion etc.) is yours to keep, enjoy, experience and become!
Wishing you good luck, thanks for the question.
malaec@yahoo.com
P.S. Ritka, privet! So glad to see you here!
March 1, 2007 at 5:21 am
Oh yes, Master Of Bullshit – I love your bullshit! It’s amazing. Where do you get it? It’s the best bullshit I heard in years… Well, after the sequence.
Is it what you truly feel or you’re just messing with us to sturr things up? Anyway, thanks, it’s really great.
Dearest Sheik, my boyfriend who always has great money-making ideas, came up with this one for you – THIS BLOG WILL MAKE A GREAT BOOK. It’s already pretty long and it will keep going. Just publish it one day and retire. It will sell in America with great success. Just come up with a catchy name for it. I’ll buy a copy, with your signature!
March 1, 2007 at 5:49 am
In my humble opinion, and since most of you, posters, seem interested in esoteric/spiritual knowledge and experiences, why not stop criticizing what you are NOT interested in and instead put your creative energy toward your spiritual quest. Move on, and seek the teacher that you think is right for you.
March 1, 2007 at 8:25 am
Are you ready for some brutal facts?
Who would like to know how its really happening in his bad room? OK folks,fasten your sit belts,the Kansas going Bye Bye…
Did you know that usual orgies are formed from 4 to 6 student?.Usually two of them are SIMULTANEOUSLY entering Burton’s anus.Third person is laying on his back while Mr.Burton is providing him an oral sex while two from both sides are subject to the masturbation by MR.Burton with his two hands.
Some time there is one more student who’s role is to hold Burton’s testicles in his mouth during the whole time.Prior to all, by Burton’s request Viagra pills are shared and swallowed between all members of the orgy which are constantly provided by Mr.G.
Some time you can hear Burton’s words during the sexual activities “How incredible! We are getting closer,aren’t we?”
Some of them are asked to suck his nipples and his toes.All sperm gets swallowed by Mr.Burton at the end of the act.But that is not all yet.
There are two students who had the most terrifying and most humiliating role to play (in my opinion).They have to enter with their hands by their elbows into the Burton’s anus.(Looking for Consciousness perhaps)..both students are Russians.One of them had left the school and the other has been “shipped” back to Russia for disobedience.
And now get this:
Beside those depraved scenes there is another one which going to shake you all:
There is another act that Burton is preforming with a specific student of his own “inner circle”.This act of Humiliation is performed in his bath room while Burton is laying down and 3 students are urinating right on him!
And on the next morning,like nothing happened Mr.Burton is leading the meeting on Love?
How cynical indeed!
March 1, 2007 at 8:26 am
The words are not it really. The sex makes me uncomfortable, although it has not touched me personally.
I do not take too seriously those of the “inner circle” – Most of the rich and famous or people with major “roles” leave. But the self remembering and moments of presence go very deep. The fellowship for me has been a great place to find and live my own personal truth. To find something authentic. But you really need to not be interested in the outer forms or special attention. Some people who have left the school have had a special place in school. For some it is difficult to have to arrive at the place of nothingness.
I have found – once there – a great peace and freedom. Although arriving at nothingness is no small task. Arriving is not exactly it – it is more of a surrender, I think.
A friend of mine mentioned today how very personal “awakening” really is. It is not only personal but also a very intimate experience, excrutiatingly so.
I frequently think of my close friends who have left the school with great love. They have not left my heart.
God, the self, whatever you want to call “this thing called love” is so palpable so beautiful.
Such a rich, joyful experience – when we are there – who would deny anyone their approach to that?
Be well. All. It is nice to hear from you. I almost would say that I regret any who are struggling with their path and yet there is something quite significant about that struggle, in or out. In or out let us all find peace – “His most precious gift – eternal peace.”
Gwendolyn
March 1, 2007 at 9:33 am
Dear All, the Romans used to say (in Latin): “The truth lays in the middle”, but it seems from what I read that everything is true, and everything co-existing. Mr. Burton the deceiving filthy thief, and ‘the Conscious Teacher’ in shiny armor. The fountains spurting in the garden, and the ‘long Be’ spurting in the bedroom. The members enjoying their Teacher, and the Teacher enjoying their members. ‘The Sequence’ long lost secret of every civilization, and “the Sequence” the new useless fabrication in esoteric marketing tools.
Soon after joining the FOF, I had the fortune, yes, and the real fortune to spend some time with Robert Burton. He was the recognized Conscious Being, although I had no means to recognize that. There is no doubt that he is a very remarkable man. I never encountered a Conscious Being before in my life, but I‘ve seen magic qualities in him; not in a Harry-Potter-Lord-of-the-Rings kind of way, but more like he-is-here-and-aware-of-everything-is-happening-around-and-feeling –groovy kind of way. (Sorry but I cannot explain how I detected that better than this). He is very powerful, and I am certain that he can cast a spell over the whole room when he is ‘teaching’. Then something happened, or maybe something started to happen and kept on happening: the veil has been lifted (according by the time that it took to lift it was a heck of a long and heavy veil). Things were ‘literally’ not adding up anymore; but absurdities, insanity, lunacy, and nonsense were adding up fast. The, sometimes tragic, humor of the whole issue is what kept me sane (I hope) throughout… then the questions: Is Robert Burton a Conscious Being? If so, is he a Conscious Teacher? Is he really gone way, way ahead, or is he just pushing his own agenda? Could it be that he has lost IT because of his lunatic sexual addiction? Could he eventually regain IT? Does his long arm literally weigh heavily on the eyes of the beholders in the room keeping everyone asleep?
Alongside I had the fortune, again, the real fortune to meet seemingly ordinary people able to turn into extraordinary friends showing me extraordinary things. My friends are the real School, proving me that it is practically impossible to DO without outside help. And then again the questions arose. Stay? Go? Left? Right? Wrong? Black? White? Gray maybe? None of the above? All of them? I’ve learned few things, and I’ll share this one with you: we are exceptional beings able to exchange and fabricate new veils in front of our eyes. Nothing bad, really, we are just designed that way.
Before I joined the FOF I had friends and a family. I had a job that I liked, and I had a house. I found my life to be humorously tricky. After some years in the FOF I have friends and a family. I have a job that I like, and I have a house, and I find my life to be humorously tricky. The difference? Now I really try to be and enjoy wherever I am, and if I do not succeed I try again, also trying not to take failure or success too seriously. There is a time for everything and, for sure, the perfect timing for it waiting to be discovered.
March 1, 2007 at 9:59 am
I find it ironic that in this school men become prostitutes and sell sex for money (or cars, passports, visas, golden chains and perfumes). Unusual opportunity to see oneself! RB uses what’s available. Inconvenient Truth said it: there is always a choice to say “no”.
It’s one thing when you become disillusioned and work your way out of the victimhood. It’s another thing when you look for a convenient esoteric label to cover up your weakness. Weakness is painful to see and accept about oneself. Isn’t it why we came to this school – to work on oneself? Covering up a weakness with lies and labels eliminates work. Now one can “serve C influence” by having sex with the teacher!
It does make me angry to see young men of RB’s harem carrying some aura of the inner circle of esoteric school.
Often times I remember the G’s story about how he made a sheep conscious, and then ate it. Because that’s what you do with sheep…
Good thing I can laugh about it: let the men experience roles which historically they pass on women! Justice restored – what a heavenly joke!
And that’s the trick with the “Work”. The mind can take it any direction: it can be “Work” to go against one’s mechanics and sleep with the Teacher if he – a conscious being – requests it.
March 1, 2007 at 12:11 pm
I am not a member of the FOF though I have lately attained an introductory meeting. I was reading what people wrote here and I became quite puzzled.
I read that people are being confined to stay in the FOF by creating fear to lose their friends and comfort of life. This seems to me coming from said people’s faults and not the FOF. I really do not have much respect to the person who claimed here that he is staying in the FOF in order to help his friends. That sounds like a big lie and I just don’t buy that. I think it is an excuse to cover other personal reasons with which that the FOF probably has nothing to do.
If you are pleading others so strongly not to join the FOF and you are still there it means you are lying both to yourself and to others. Why don’t you just get up and leave now? Maybe deep inside you, you feel that it is your weakness and not the organization’s?
Reading Gurdjieff and Ouspensky’s books, they are describing exactly people like the ones who are going against the work on consciousness. I can see that I have inside me what they call I’s.
I can see that if I am not attentive in the moment I am day dreaming all the time. That is what I really liked in that introductory meeting and I felt they were quite sincere about not being in that day dreaming, which they call imagination.
In a strange way what I read here helps me to go for it and join and see how it is for me. I know one person who is in the FOF for 17 years and he is the only sane guy I know in this world. He told me that it is true that Robert has sexual contacts with a small group of people and it is not imposed if they do not want to. I do not like that part, yet I am not a fearful person and sexual activity is not a negative thing.
March 1, 2007 at 1:30 pm
You are absolutely right that the forum is getting too cluttered. I opened up a new forum where the discussion can continue in a less chaotic manner.
Enjoy.
NEW DISCUSSION BOARD
This discussion is therefore being closed, you will only be able to comment in the new one. The old comments will stay here.
March 18, 2007 at 6:23 am
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