The time has come to move again.
For the first part of the discussion that started it all, feel free to visit The Initial Article.
For the second part of the discussion, please go here.
Otherwise, enjoy and have fun.
March 11, 2007
The Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part 3
Posted by Pavel under Discussion, Fellowship of Friends, Forum[334] Comments
Animam Recro 
March 11, 2007 at 4:25 am
Little Lamb,
All I can say is that I too began as a little lamb. When I became a tiger, I didn’t like what I saw or where I was going. so I left the jungle. Why? Good question.
Simon.
March 11, 2007 at 4:29 am
Now I have to agree with you, Sheik. The discussion seems to have run its course, for me at least, though I’m glad you’re keeping it open for those who wish to comment, or just read what has been said. From the profound to the profane, it’s all here. I certainly had my share of the feast, as well as the post show entertainment during the latter stages of part 2.
For the curious there is much to be gleaned from these pages, providing information which will hopefully complete the missing segments omitted from those sacrosanct prospective meetings, where it all begins.
Because should you make that first down payment, you are drawn in, even if you don’t realise it. And yes, there will be some special times. You may learn a lot about fine impressions, make some wonderful friends in the process, even gain an insight as to what it might be to “prolong the present” (If I had remained here longer I would have asked the Sheik if I could change my name to “Prolonging the Present” as I believe it captures the delicious absurdity of the illusion beneath whose spell we become captive.)
But like all things, time will eventually run its course and after five, ten, twenty five years perhaps, the spell will be broken and you will wake up to a profound realisation – though not necessarily the one you once imagined.
When you do, you’ll be on your own and no Burton, Haven, Gangaji, Adyashanti, Sherman, Terrell et al. can do it for you. Yet at the same time you will not be on your own…
The question remains: could one have changed any of this? Or was that how it was meant to be?
On that tantalising note, I reckon it’s time for me too to saddle my trusty steed and ride off into the sunset, just as I one did in a past life. Adios camaradas.
Thanks again Sheik and all you contributors out there, whoever you are.
Simon says….
March 11, 2007 at 4:52 am
What?
Esoteric Sheik left without telling us when we get to vote for the winners?
Sheik???
March 11, 2007 at 5:11 am
THE LAMB
Little lamb, who made thee?
Does thou know who made thee,
Gave thee life, and bid thee feed
By the stream and o’er the mead;
Gave thee clothing of delight,
Softest clothing, woolly, bright;
Gave thee such a tender voice,
Making all the vales rejoice?
Little lamb, who made thee?
Does thou know who made thee?
Little lamb, I’ll tell thee;
Little lamb, I’ll tell thee:
He is called by thy name,
For He calls Himself a Lamb.
He is meek, and He is mild,
He became a little child.
I a child, and thou a lamb,
We are called by His name.
Little lamb, God bless thee!
Little lamb, God bless thee!
Little Lamb
March 11, 2007 at 6:42 am
Some semi-theoretical possibilities for the definition fetishists:
Real I = No I
That Which Observes = Witness
Higher state(s) = Witnessing state
Steward = the impulse, as experienced by the seemingly separate self, toward….
God/Higher Centres/C-Influence = Ultimate Ground of Being/sahaj samadhi /baqa-billah
Suggestions/exercises/tasks = “pointing out exercises”
Why self-remember? Why meditate? Why awaken? Why teach awakening? The “struggle” need not be a narcissistic and fear-based hope of having the insides of our brains (in whatever form of “me” seems most real at any particular period) live eternally in time. What drives us is simply reality, the dimly understood, but (if we are fortunate) strongly felt need for an ever broader, higher, more inclusive reality. All that we can describe with words must necessarily be no more than the by-products of reality. It is not “for” anything or anyone; it has no purpose, merely the relentless power of being, of being more real. Approaching that which is real, words, (again necessarily) crash into one another and become meaningless, become tautologies, wisp away in a seeming wind which then itself vanishes.
“Karma, processes, conditioning, levels, states, attainments — all this is provisional and false and depends on the presumed presence of the person to whom all of this pertains. It is all imagination. If there is no person, then the root is pulled on all of it.” – John Wheeler
Why are you unhappy?
Because 99.9% of everything you think
And of everything you do,
Is for yourself—
And there isn’t one.
–Wei Wu Wei
“Them’s purty words, John, Joe and Wei, but how do we do it?”
If we manage to hurdle the knee-jerk roadblocks thrown by those reciting “We cannot do” or “but who is doing – nothing is doing – it is just done”, we are left we a need for some kind of path or practice. We have experiences that point to a wider, brighter view, a view we somehow want to understand more, live more fully within. Until recently, the major spiritual traditions, West and East, were in agreement that there is much inner work to be done as a prelude to breaking through the chains of incarnation. The idea that it is necessary and sufficient to just “admit you are God” and all is realized could only be created by the Pop Tarts Generation. To posit this invites mere dreaming. If you truly experience that ultimate reality (and any one of you/us out there may well have), it is a result of other, prior struggles, however blessedly boggled our “minds” are by the simplicity of the realization. The eventual realization that one was tilting at windmills does not invalidate the need to do so. The path need not be one of perpetual grovelling submission to a deified Teacher, nor any other sort of morbid self-flagellation, yet there is a path.
BS-meters have two poles – their proper calibration requires testing both the nonsense outside “me” and all the nonsense inside “me”. Consistent use of common sense a.k.a. the persistent-willingness-to-see-what-is-in-
front-of-your-eyes does result in a weakening of the illusion that we exist as separate personality-driven flesh drops.
How do “you” react to:
“You are God looking at him/herself”
( hmm…that sounds nice)
“When you are present, you no longer need the sequence” (groan…why the Burtonisms?)
“Arbeit macht frei” (Hey! That is really in bad taste! We are tolerant, but within limits)
You give words their meanings and their power. Whether words build an escape tunnel or a dizzying maze is mostly up to you.
March 11, 2007 at 7:02 am
C us here:
Never without you.
Love,
A Hundred Thousand Angels
March 11, 2007 at 8:09 am
Please tell me it is not true,
Please tell me it is not true
The winery never made sales because of the info regarding RB “actions” would become known and the sales would drop over and over.
Please tell me that it is not true that my teacher offered to explain the 4 Th way books to the first students?
Please tell me it is not true that many of my friends went out to foreign centers to take pictures to show to my teacher for “future activities”.
Please tell me it is not true that my fellow- friends call ex students and students to check out information on other student’s activities in different spiritual areas?
Please tell me it is not true my doctor friends bring Prozac and Viagra to the Galleria?
Please tell me it is not true that my teacher was send away from his teacher because he was asked not to chase men and he could not keep this task?
Please tell me that it is not true the boys receive info that sperm has special energy so my teacher can do his special Work?
Why did I never ask the right questions…did things, trusted…why…?
Please my stomach hurt…I can not sleep. I try to see why I did not see this earlier in the School, why, why…
Yes it is true that I am slow and in all these years, was not aware…yes it is naïf, CB and others you can scold me…and still say it is so easy to leave?
Yes I see that my teachers has conditional love
Yes, I saw myself treating others with conditional love.
O God, I do not understand is it better to go to the moon then to conform to your teacher, my conscience aches.
It aches so much. Maybe I should pretend it is all OK and not my business.
In the six processes Rodney Collin writes: “A man must speak and act as he thinks to stay mentally healthy…if not expressed can make terrible inroads on the whole physical and moral- well being of a man….”
It also mentioned that there are always sign before crime manifests….Page 193. Crime will manifest when the process of destruction and corruption are not happening sufficiently
O please tell me, I was not able to see things as they are…that it is not true Please….
The wish not to see things as they are…
Thanks all for reading and I know…time will heal all wounds, as my dear friend reminds me so often…
March 11, 2007 at 10:24 am
(plese post if you think its relevant)
Hello, Sheik,
First let me thank you for letting us voice our opinions an otherwise putting up with us. But post 332 from Simon to Cry Baby contained no real content of interest and seemed to be simply a dialog between just the 2 of them. Hope this forum isn’t turning into a messenger service. Maybe they can leave notes to each other in tree hollows.
March 11, 2007 at 12:15 pm
Dear All,
something seems to be unnoticed and covered by the flow of our letters. We have a participant who has awakened – no person – who has a definite firm and undoubtedly honest experience of changed identity. It is expressed in most of her letters.
I am current member of FoF. It’s a challange to see someone awakening inside the School but through a different approach or way. As some of you mentioned in this discussion you haven’t ever met such thing as a result of FoF exercises or at least no one has shown up here to report such a thing.
On the other hand I don’t think the work I-s, the sequence etc. were false just because something else was proven its results. My aim is not to argue, defend or fight but to understand “my” possibilities deeper and clearer. To watch in terms of “good and good (or better)” rather than good vs. bad.
Strange though, before coming into FoF I tried to reach That in a group led by a follower of Ramana-Papaji-Gangaji. I participated “intensive” retreats too. The whole thing was very true, very pure, very honest etc. I had people waking up right in front of me or behind me – sometimes it was just unquestionable. And of course such an experience (“Direct Experience of One’s Self”) happened only to a minority (and repeatedly for the same people) – others too have gained a lot but not That.
So it didn’t work for me (even though I was certain it was a right path).
That time that place there were two optins I found attractive for myself, Sant Mat and FoF and eventually I joined the latter. Here I also got a lot – except That.
This discussion is precious. It reminds me there might be glorious ways but not much will happen if I am not heartful enough.
As Mohammed said: “Go totally bankrupt.”
innin@walla.com
March 11, 2007 at 1:42 pm
Doesn’t it seem that the discord in the fof is as a part of the discord of the nation at large? The growing schisms, the fundamentalism, distrust, greed,lying and fear. Why are we even bothering with this. The world is desintegrating beneath our feet and we are babbling about the heavens.
This blog is certainly bringing up a lot of old garbage in me and i guess that is good. When i first was told about it i wasn’t even going to look at it but i am glad i did. It is bringing out of the darkness the contradictions of the fof and into the light the evolving spiritual understanding of mankind of which the 4th way is a part. Ken Wilber is doing some great work trying to integrate this knowledge.
Many postings have described far better than i can the landscape we are in. Spirit’s center is everywhere, the boundary nowhere. We are trying to get in. We are trying to get in but as Rumi said we are knocking from the inside. In or out of the fof does not matter. The same inexorable price must still be paid for the same great purchase.
Whatever practice you have, do it (meditation, sequence, looking, listening, divided attention, self remembering, visualization …) they are all valid but none are an end in themselves, there is no end.
Please, those of you in the fof (external life organisation fof), stop idolizing Robert Burton. He can suck my …. wait no he can’t. He is playing the role of a despot holding together fragments of an unknown teaching. Have you ever noticed how similar his eyes and mannerisms are similar to those old newsreel depictions of Adolf Hitler? I am not comparing their works or philosophies just making an observation.
“When we regard ourselves in the many situations life brings, we find that from first breath to last we are conditioned by external factors. Yet is that highest freedom left to us–to perfect ourselves within, so as that we shall come into harmony with the moral world order and attain peace with ourselves, no matter what obstacles may emerge. This is easily said and written, yet it is no more than a goal before us, to the achievement of which we must thouroughly dedicate ourselves. Every day challenges us to do what is to be done and expect whatever is possible.”
Johann Goethe as exerpted by Robert Burton one of my true teachers. I thank him for all the work he has done for us.
Continue, because you must, whoever you are. I know who you are.
March 11, 2007 at 5:03 pm
I have lost count of the number of posts but there must be many. I have read all of them and would like to say this about a few of them.
Some of you use a word or a sentence and it’s frigging funny. I start laughing and just have a blast with the fun.
What was that angle about laughter, contradictions and landing simultaneous on (two) centers?
Thank you G. Haven for asking me to leave and thank you Jesus too! I feel like I’ve turned into a laughing Buddha. Which ain’t bad ya’ll.
March 11, 2007 at 6:22 pm
Little Lamb in Post #336:
I know a woman who casually described Robert’s relationship with her husband as “date rape.” She isn’t disaffected; she’s close to Robert.
I know another woman whose husband was “with” Robert. She said: “To take a man from one off the poorest countries in the world, offer him a green card if he’ll submit, or else you’ll throw him back into the poverty from which he sprang, to call that a ‘free choice’ is cynical in the extreme.”
I know some stories as wild or wilder than some of the stories told here.
The mark of mature and loving sexuality is the wish for free and full of consent from your partner. Not someone who is tricked, deceived, drunk or paid for.
Your question is not about what Simon did or did not do twenty or thirty years ago.
It’s about your buffers.
March 11, 2007 at 7:11 pm
Dear friends:
It does feel like this conversation has completed a major cycle. What purpose or life it might take on from here, who knows. Maybe it’s done. In any case, I just wanted to just say thank you to everyone, for the many sincere thoughts and feelings you shared here. Love to you all,
baleful.bedouin@gmail.com
March 11, 2007 at 7:31 pm
Dear innin, dear all,
There are quite a few paticipants and friends who had realised their true nature. I know personally at least 12 friends who has experienced a life changing shift in perception, and are living an impersonal, much more liberated life now. Some of them were asked to leave the school, some left on their own, but some are still in, enjoying and experiencing whatever is. (No, I am not telling any names). Few write here as well, and you can hear the truth in their messages, if you are able to overcome the judgment.
Do not believe your mind that tells you “It’s not possible, it’s not happening in this lifetime”. It IS possible, because it IS your true nature already – consciousness – it is who you are right now, and the idea of “achieving it” next lifetime is utter BS. It’s totally available, because everyone has it in them, it’s what we all are. There is no time or lifetimes, it’s only – NOW.
We all have invested so much in our mind, in our imaginary picture, that we believe every thought that comes, and we even took ourselves to be a “me” thought. WE are not a thought! We are – what experiences thought, what watches it come and go.
Awakening – if we want to use this word – is recognizing that you are not a thought “me”, but the ever-present consciousness behind the thoughts, the “looking out”, the alive awareness, the very essence of life. All of these words are only words, they do poor job describing the undescribable. One has to look for himself to see and acknowledge – but it is so possible, it is totally available in direct seeing right now. One cannot get anywhere through mental struggle, comparing ideas or doing exercises or practices. The very efforts and practice and mental noise – what obscures the simple truth of who you are, and keeps the game of the “student” going. “I am not there yet, I shall make more efforts”. Stop right now and acknowledge the simple fact of awareness that is “looking” through yor physical eyes. It registers everything – objects, your body, even mental noise. It is here, undisturbed and permanent. It is – you. (And me, and them, and – everyone! Not a single being is excluded.) It is life itself, the Beloved, the divine principle that makes it all happen. Labels don’t do justice, so forget the labels – but see for yourself, recognize it right now. Give it your own label if you wish.
Robert tries to produce states in his students. We all had states, they feel great. We get addicted to them, because states are truly wonderful, and we want more states. We agree to pay lots of money to go to an event for a high state. Then state is gone, and we feel low and bad, troubled and full of questions. We are ready for our next dose of states. We are going to Robert and buying more states. Does it remind you of something?
Look, it’s not about the states. They come and go, they don’t seem to have a cumulative effect. Just like the drug high, they disappear, wear out. Awakening is NOT an accumulation of states or creating a permanent high state. It is a mistake, a misunderstanding that is costing you so much!
What John Wheeler asked was so simple: In this exact moment, what do you experience, what can be observed? I looked: OK, here is some stuff around me, here are parts of my body – hands, legs… I hear sounds, it feels warm around. Colors, shapes. Thoughts are coming and going…
He asked: can you see the entity called “me” in you direct experience? Where is the “person” you think you are in all that was just observed?
And it suddenly dawned on me, because there is NO person to be observed in the present. There is just this alive impersonal looking, observing and registering of everything. It has no name, face or age. Conscious awareness observing everything that constantly changes. This is it! It’s the truth. Nothing else. Every moment of my life this is all there is…
A person I thought myself to be just DOESN’T EXIST. It’s a thought. It had never lived on it’s own, except in the mind as a virtual mental picture. I took myself to be a thought with attached story and overlooked the pure conscious awareness that I AM.
Guys, it is so simple… I laughed. I couldn’t believe the simplicity of it. It was said that Buddha laughed when he saw, everyone laughs when it is seen. You cannot not laugh!
After that there is no more search to find myself, no struggle inside, no mistaken identity. But life goes on, and sometimes there is a sunny day, and sometimes a rainy one. It’s not just all roses, and permanent bliss, in fact the play doesn’t seem to change much externally. Behavior doen’t change much, may be one becomes a little milder and calmer – may be. Imagination still comes, and passes, but one doesn’t get lost in it for hours and panic to get out like before. It’s like a passing cloud, that doesn’t obscure the sky. Anything can occur, but it is not taken personally, it is not about the “me” anymore. Things are not grabbed and hold on to for long. So much internal emotional pain and unnecessary suffering is simply gone with the disappearance of illusion of “me”.
In sharing it here there is hope that it may just loosen another rigid mind, and something may become possible yet for another friend.
One day I may even learn to write shorter posts…
malaec@yahoo.com
March 11, 2007 at 8:07 pm
15) Now it was the governor’s custom at the Feast to release a prisoner chosen by the crowd.
16) At that time they had a notorious prisoner, called Barabbas.
17) So when the crowd had gathered, Pilate asked them,
“Which one do you want me to release to you: Barabbas, or Jesus who is called Christ?”
18) For he knew it was out of envy that they had handed Jesus over to him.
19) While Pilate was sitting on the judge’s seat, his wife sent him this message:
“Don’t have anything to do with that innocent man, for I have suffered a great deal today in a dream because of him.”
20) But the chief priests and the elders persuaded the crowd to ask for Barabbas and to have Jesus executed.
21) “Which of the two do you want me to release to you?” asked the governor.
“Barabbas,” they answered.
22) “What shall I do, then, with Jesus who is called Christ?” Pilate asked.
They all answered, “Crucify him!”
23) “Why? What crime has he committed?” asked Pilate.
But they shouted all the louder, “Crucify him!”
Early the next morning he returned to the temple. People came to him and he sat down and began to teach them.
The and the Pharisees brought a woman who had just been caught in the act of adultery and put her in the middle of the group that Jesus was teaching.
They asked Jesus:
The law of Moses commands us to stone adulterers. What do you say about it?
Jesus stooped down, and with his finger, he wrote on the ground. They continued to taunt Jesus with the question.
Jesus stood up and said to them:
He who is without sin among you, let him be the first one to throw a stone at her.
Again Jesus stooped down and continued writing on the ground. The scribes and Pharisees, after hearing Jesus’ answer, were silent.
They left Jesus, starting with the oldest and ending with the youngest.
Then Jesus stood up and asked the woman:
Where are the ones who accuse you? Does no man condemn you?
She said:
No man, sir.
Then Jesus said:
Neither do I condemn you. Go your way. From now on sin no more.
March 11, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Dear No Person,
Keep your posts as long as they need to be, they do as good a job as any of getting right to the point – increasingly so, I find. I’m happy for the ‘prolonged enjoyment’ of reading them. I could not speak about your former teacher’s use of ‘states’, or where his students have taken whatever it was he gave/is giving to them. Experience would suggest this is a profoundly individual thing, with many unpredictable variations. Best wishes to you,
Bedouin
March 11, 2007 at 8:22 pm
There has been some mention of Prehistoric symbolism.
When Gurdjieff visited the Lascaux caves in France before the end of his life, he was told the wall paintings were estimated to be 40,000 years old, he insisted they could have been created no earlier than 25,000 years old, “never before the fall of Atlantis” he said. There is a horned figure painted on the wall of the caves, Gurdjieff stated it was a sign of very high initiation. He was shocked to recognize signs from an earlier school. He purchased a book of photographs of the caves.
March 11, 2007 at 8:43 pm
In a group meeting Madame de Salzmann placed a great deal of emphasis on active participation.
This struck me as very important. I have an enormous passivity. I act as if I have no real responsiblity for my own evolution, as if it
were a matter of grace which I am somehow guaranteed. She said that Mr. Gurdjieff brought a science of being,
but I see that something in me does not want to accept the fact that there are exact laws of spiritual evolution.
I keep dreaming and hoping that the law will not apply to me, that I will win a spiritual lottery and wake up a
higher being.
Heart Without Measure
Gurdjieff Work with Madame de Salzmann
by Ravi Ravindra
March 11, 2007 at 9:37 pm
I was doing the ‘Sequence’recently. Driving in my car.It works.That is,attention becomes focused on the senses perceptions and the thoughts arising in the mind.It is no more or less affective than the ‘old’ method of trying to ‘remember oneself’while being aware of the law of seven or ‘octaves’as outlined precisely by Ouspensky.(I won’t go into the details here.Look it up yourelf.)Anyone else noticed that the sequence is six steps followed by ‘Voila! Seventh Heaven !Not really a new Idea at all.Ouspensky also said that all events are created and governed the Law of three or ‘Triads .The succession or SEQUENCE of those events is governed by the law of seven…Got it ?Therefore nothing really different from G and O’s theory. And seeing sequences and triads ( Pyramids, to you Bub.. )in all phenomenon is possible when you think in those concepts.They are there. Why,only this morning I was cutting the first piece of my pancake and just before it went into my mouth (the ‘interval’ in the octave of eating my first bite..) I noted it was a triangle shape. Anyway, to go back to driving in my car. As I got off the freeway into the town of Grass Valley a person was at the intersection holding a sign that read ‘All closed out’.I should state here that I stopped paying money to the FOF some months ago and am now an ex member.So, in my already ‘All centers gathered attentive state’I noted with amusement the message.The town was crowded due to an event and I had to go into some previous unexplored back streets to park. Walking from the car I saw that I was in No School street !. Yes folks, that street actually exists.So, two ‘Outside shocks’had entered into my already escalated awareness. RB desribed ‘C’ influence as a series of coincidences to pressing to ignore.He also says that ‘C’ influence dumps you when you leave the FOF and ‘Turn your back on the Gods’Well, lucky for me I’d already seen this form of coincidence BEFORE I read any 4th way stuff or had even heard of Schools.Kind of got a toe hold in first so to speak.However, let me continue. All sorts of understandings are beginning to enter into me as I walk down the street.The stark reality and beauty of the buildings ,trees,the people, even that fat lady stuffing a huge ice cream into her face, they are all a part of me…..it’s always and eternally Now…just the outward apearance continually changes…But ooh! Mummy! Help!I’m wondering if i’m going crazy …but thats just some words coming from the ‘old’ reality I just left.And who just said that ? I find my awareness has conjured a tavern right in front of me.The Holbrooke Hotel.It happens that I enter and am ‘Driven relentlessly from vessel to vessel’for a while meanwhile experiencing the uninterupted connectiveness of all beings,things,beer and …..does this mean….well, i’m having a Dog day alright. The internal talking seems to have abated and this is reality alright.The implications keep flooding in though as more and more corners of my being are illuminated by truth.If I’m experiencing a bit of gods reality.. then he created everything… which means my awareness is looking out at a world created by that awareness and ….everyone is part of the same creation without exception including ,Stalin,Henry Eighth,Benny Hill,those assholes writing that stuff on the internet, R.Burton,the guy at the post office that takes forever to put the mail up and …..I love them all! for how could it be otherwise and..and….
See you all.
Flesh.G.
March 11, 2007 at 9:47 pm
When we give up the right to live from the dictates of our hearts by separating from those feelings of shame and remorse as if they were just ordinary negative emotions, we give up the chance to act and live from what is good in us, the highest parts of ourselves. We need to become ordinary before we can become anything else.
“In comparison with sleeping people dead people are very strong, because they have no conscience and no shame. What makes ordinary people weak? Conscience and shame.” The Fourth Way pg. 435
“the deliberate and often official killing of individual judgement and conscience constitutes crime on such a large scale that it becomes invisible, and men cannot even imagine living under any other conditions.”
“it is human sleep and sleep only-the wish not to see things as they are-which makes men ignore the clear warnings of corruption before its work begins.” The Theory of Celestial Influence pg. 192-193
In order for the process of healing to begin a person must recognize the process of corruption occuring and say no to it.
Thanks to Vena, Innernaught, Reality Check, devoted reader, Simon, Rita, Traveler, Truth is where, Kid Shelleen, Having Been There, Inconvenient Truth, Inner Jewels. BBB, Anonymous, Medusa, Cathie, Voice of One and all the rest for insightful, painful, humorous and thought provoking postings. It is amazing to find so many like minded people in one place.
keith.46@hotmail.com
March 11, 2007 at 9:59 pm
TO ALL MY FRIENDS, FELLOWBLOGGERS AND THE SHEIK:
Yes, dear bloggers, all good things must come to an end…
I have bared my soul, as have some of you, whether fully or partially, and whether we were praised, clobbered or bloggered about doing so, we have done it. If more can and should be said, it would have to be in a different medium.
We have seen that there are no easy answers–why, because our own psychology (of our possible evolution especially) is an enigma, and nothing will ever satisfy all the various parts of us, us that are ever changing beings, and in this blog there is not the space to adequately describe an even greater enigma, a living teaching that means so many different things to so many.
Having rightfully incurred the wrath (and some praise) of so many participants, I too will ride off, but into the Sunrise…
It is a beautiful morning here, the love of my life is here now, beside me, I have to go…
So Farewell to Arms…
PS–to Simon-thank you for your contributions-we will meet again, and in a new Jerusalem. Yes, we too have enjoyed many a fine bottle together….
PPS–a word of thanks to the Sheik is in order. Thank you. THANK YOU!!!
PPPS–Thanks Baleful Bedouin–of all postings, I appreciated yours the most.
PPPPS–Thanks My Dear Little Lamb, please stay a lamb…
PPPPPS-and thanks to all you Supporters of Cry Baby–see some of you at the meeting in a few hours!
PPPPPPS–EVERY MOMENT LOST IS A MOMENT THAT CANNOT BE REDEEMED–WILLIAM BLAKE
March 11, 2007 at 10:19 pm
Balancing the Scale (307) says: I know one person who managed to get to a permanent state, his name is Robert Burton.
I wonder if you believe you’ve verified that – if so, how? Seems to me it’s something FOF students choose to believe so they don’t have to think for themselves.
PS thanks Spencer!
March 11, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Well, Passerby (#15), Christ said so many things, didn’t he? About false prophets, false teachers, lawyers, scribes and Pharisees… he didn’t always withhold judgment:
“Any who lead these little ones astray it would be better to have a millstone fastened around their neck and thrown into the sea.” (Matthew 18:6.)
Following his example, those New Testament “Conscious Beings” could really eat fire, couldn’t they?
“For there are certain men crept in unawares, who were before of old ordained to this condemnation, ungodly men, turning the grace of our God into lasciviousness.” (Jude 1: 4)
“But these … made to be taken and destroyed, speak evil of the things they understand not; and shall utterly perish in their own corruption … Spots they are and blemishes, sporting themselves with their own deceivings while they feast with you… Having eyes full of adultery, and that cannot cease from sin; beguiling unstable souls…” (II Peter 2: 12-14)
If you are really on a tear, you might want to read Romans 1, and all of II Peter and Jude. That will give you a little perspective, for context is everything, isn’t it?
There’s a reason you get the edited version of these things on daily cards, meeting cards, and the like. But the Cliff Notes aren’t enough. You have to read the whole thing, for, as Shakespeare said, “the devil can cite scripture for his purpose.” (Merchant of Venice, Act I, scene 3)
In any case, Passerby, nobody is getting crucified or stoned to death, so please strive for a sense of scale. Nobody is even having their wineglass taken away — all these posts notwithstanding.
(And to those posters who have urged no judgments until there is a “fair trial” — well, Robert has done a great deal to avoid precisely such a trial, hasn’t he?)
“In order for the process of healing to begin a person must recognize the process of corruption occuring and say no to it” — and in our case, we must reverse it, too, Keith. Remember the ice splinter that entered the hearts and eyes of the children in Hans Christian Anderson’s “The Snow Queen”?
Adios, all! May your ship sail free!
March 12, 2007 at 12:17 am
Sheik, I believe we have run into the Do-re-mi interval.
March 12, 2007 at 12:42 am
Passerby (#17) quoted a passage about Gurdjieff expounding on the age of cave paintings, and his subsequent visit to the gift shop where he purchased a coffee table book.
When first I read that “he insisted they could have been created no earlier than 25,000 years” ago, I thought, “What?” But then I read on to learn that he stated, “never before the fall of Atlantis.”
Oh well, OF COURSE, the fall of Atlantis — DUH! Everybody KNOWS THAT!
Atlantis?
Please, please, please tell me you don’t believe this.
But if you do, contact me at once, as I have in my possession a rare yet completely authentic deed to the bridge connecting Manhattan to Brooklyn, and while I promised my family never to part with it, financial circumstances compel me to offer it for sale at an unheard of price…scribbled on the underside of said bridge you will find a single “graffito” of just such a horned figure, proving the very high “initiation” of certain Puerto Rican gang members, etc, etc
March 12, 2007 at 1:07 am
Dear Cry Baby,
Farewell to you. And a warm thank you for all you have brought, in authenticity, courage, and time, to this strange alchemical event in cyberspace. You were an essential, catalytic ingredient, it would hardly have been the same without you.
Bedouin
March 12, 2007 at 1:48 am
I am not a member but writing for of a friend who joined the Fellowship 7 years ago and left almost right away after being told by management (no names) that she had to change her job or leave. My friend is a stripper and was a prostitute from europe (germany). she was told by the higher ups in the group that she could not do what she was doing. My friend is a beautiful person and this was a devastating thing to happen to her because she thought robert did not want her in the group. we were talking about this blog that we found by accident and she said that her emotions are strange but that there is something about Robert that she has never forgotten, she loves robert the teacher and to send him all the strenght he needs. even though she has never met him, he will always have a dear place in her heart–and now mine too. what happend actually, but she did not know that at the time, is that robert did not tell anyone to kick her out of the group, but that he was very upset this had happened and that he said when he heard about this–who among you is so ready to throw the first stone.
March 12, 2007 at 3:05 am
Thank you Sheik for your patience.
Amazing, is it not, to see how ideas can destroy a man’s soul? Words, images on a piece of paper…
And amazing still to witness what nonsense a “straight” man will easily sell his soul for.
I know you have understood something here that need no comment, quote, poem…
Perhaps you not candidate for looney tunes?
See you around, if it is God’s will….
March 12, 2007 at 3:06 am
As I read this blog each day and continue to reflect on my experiences over many years with RB and FOF I am aware of an interesting fact. In spite of my many doubts, frank criticisms and belief that Robert Burton is ill and has done alot of damage in the name of spiritual guidance, I don’t feel any wish for revenge or to see him hurt in any way. I recognize that after so many years I have a certain affection for him. This is an interesting and sometimes uncomfortable awareness. I only wish he could be helped to see, understand and take responsibilty for the consequences of his actions.
Like others, I have also observed that he tends to surrounded himself with people of weak character whose interest in having a “visible role” is more important than personal integrity. Perhaps they are easier to control but this habit has contributed to the lack of conscience, compassion and integrity in the school as a whole.
Let’s hope that current members will recognize the need to ask for some reform that might promote the process of healing.
March 12, 2007 at 5:32 am
This is in response to Anonymous (#12) that it is not about what happened to Simon 20 years ago,etc.but that it is about my buffers.
You completely ignore that Simon just took off and “rode into the sunset” right after i asked him some pointed questions (end of page2) that he completely ignored–very interesting after all that talk about having been taken advantage off by Robert,so i disagree,it is all about the honesty of the people that do not mind slandering Robert but have no decency to admit their own faults.
not that i am without faults or anything,like anyone else,but your comments are wrong. we are first of all here to examine ourself and look inside. i have not seen on this blog one single reply from anyone that had himself experienced anything wrong done to them by Robert.
so before we throw the first stones as a few have written about,let us examine ourself.
also i agree with a number of others that this discussion seems to have run out of new things to say and all this arguing is not going anywhere. so i too will take off. best to all and good luck.
Little Lamb
March 12, 2007 at 7:41 am
Stripperella, I heard a story about your friend, from second, third, fourth…? hand, that RB had commented to everyone’s surprise that her profession was fine, since one day (in the new world order or something of the sort) we may have prostitution in Apollo. Just thought you might want to know.
March 12, 2007 at 8:37 am
The Road Not Taken
TWO roads diverged in a yellow wood,
And sorry I could not travel both
And be one traveler, long I stood
And looked down one as far as I could
To where it bent in the undergrowth;
Then took the other, as just as fair,
And having perhaps the better claim,
Because it was grassy and wanted wear;
Though as for that the passing there
Had worn them really about the same,
And both that morning equally lay
In leaves no step had trodden black.
Oh, I kept the first for another day!
Yet knowing how way leads on to way,
I doubted if I should ever come back.
I shall be telling this with a sigh
Somewhere ages and ages hence:
Two roads diverged in a wood, and I—
I took the one less traveled by,
And that has made all the difference.
March 12, 2007 at 8:38 am
Dream Fable
I saw myself in a wide green garden, more beautiful than I could begin to understand. In this garden was a young girl. I said to her, “How wonderful this place is!”
“Would you like to see a place even more wonderful than this?” she asked.
“Oh yes,” I answered. Then taking me by the hand, she led me on until we came to a magnificent palace, like nothing that was ever seen by human eyes. The young girl knocked on the door, and someone opened it. Immediately both of us were flooded with light.
Only Allah knows the inner meaning of the maidens we saw living there. Each one carried in her hand a serving-tray filled with light. The young girl asked the maidens where they were going, and they answered her, “We are looking for someone who was drowned in the sea, and so became a martyr. She never slept at night, not one wink! We are going to rub funeral spices on her body.”
“Then rub some on my friend here,” the young girl said.
“Once upon a time,” said the maidens, “part of this spice and the fragrance of it clung to her body — but then she shied away.”
Quickly the young girl let go of my hand, turned, and said to me:
“Your prayers are your light;
Your devotion is your strength;
Sleep is the enemy of both.
Your life is the only opportunity that life can give you.
If you ignore it, if you waste it,
You will only turn to dust.”
Then the young girl disappeared
March 12, 2007 at 11:44 am
‘Wouldn’t’ would like to elaborate on this posting:
Wouldn’t you like to know Says:
March 10th, 2007 at 11:19 am
Not Sequence, dummy;
Sequins: what gay people
wear on their garments
to get your attention,
as if they cannot get
it otherwise.
(This is not intended
to be gay bashing or
hateful blogging;
just making a metaphor.
A rose by any other name
would smell as sweet.)
Please be aware that
Sequins is these shining
little round sew-on adornments
to clothing that are designed
to reflect light in a sparkling
sort of way; often worn by
performers when on stage.
Sequins is Empoorer’s
New Clothes: finest
garment ever made.
No different from
earlier new clothes.
Shhssh! do NOT tell
Empoorer about the
nakedness. (Or, else!)
Do not make the mistake
that this reflected sequins light
is in any way a substitution
for that all-so-much-more real
inner light that shines into
your body through your
third eye. 3rd eye light takes
you nearer who u r, your true
identity as body of light.
Look in this Mirror of Light.
See it instead of Sequins.
Then you find truth; may be,
may c. Do it now……..
Self-Remembering who u r.
R U? M I? I M U R!
Very cleaver, looks like new sequins, hmm?
Much Love,
‘Wouldn’t’
March 12, 2007 at 1:57 pm
I have the same feelings as Vena who doesn’t want revenge against Robert and Gordon who said that he is still capable of loving him.
I met a friend not long ago who said that if he could get away with it, he would murder Robert for what he’s done to him, as he found his experience being extremely degrading.
It is a horrible thing to say and I am sure none of us want to see the man we used to or still love to meet the fate of Pazollini.
I found it to be my responsibility while in the school, to warn all young men against having sex with Robert. One of them said: ‘if only I met you a month ago before going to Egypt to meet Robert’… 20 years old, rosy cheeks, blue eyes, suicidal.
Now, thanks to this blog, many will be warned. I think that FOF will shrink to much smaller proportion and remain that till Robert’s death, there’s not much chance of fresh blood pouring into it with all this exposures of his deviancy.
Thank you again, Sheik, and all my dearest friends here.
March 12, 2007 at 2:30 pm
They say Ouspensky inserted intentional mistakes in his writings to off set the world’s dilettantes. If it sounds true then it must be?
March 12, 2007 at 6:41 pm
arthur (#36) said
“They say Ouspensky inserted intentional mistakes in his writings to off set the world’s dilettantes.”
That’s so when somebody pointed out an error, he could say “I meant to do that.”
Ouspensky demonstrated that trait early on when, upon failing some kind of high school or college exam, he announced that he would take no more tests. In other words, “If they don’t recognize my greatness (in spite of my crappy grade), to hell with them!”
Or maybe it was more like, “I meant to miss those questions.”
March 12, 2007 at 7:40 pm
Murder? You must be kidding! Sheik, please stop these nonsensical posts!
March 12, 2007 at 10:42 pm
Identification
“A man who identifies with anything is unable to remember himself. To remember oneself it is necessary first of all not to identify.” George Gurdjieff
Mr. Gurdjieff explains that when we look at something we are aware of it, yet most of our awareness goes into what we observe. Very little goes into consciousness of ourselves as the observer. This condition, which the Fourth Way calls identification, is the opposite of self-remembering. With self-remembering, attention is divided and we become aware of two things simultaneously: the object and ourselves looking at it.
March 12, 2007 at 10:48 pm
Man is always in a state of identification, only the object of identification changes. A man becomes a thing, a piece of flesh; he loses even the small semblance of a human being that he has. So long as a man identifies or can be identified, he is the slave of everything that can happen to him.
George Gurdjieff
——————————————————————————–
We become too absorbed in things, too lost in things, particularly when the slightest emotional element appears. This is called identification. It begins first with interest. You are interested in something, and the next moment you are in it, and do not exist any more.
Peter Ouspensky
March 13, 2007 at 1:30 am
Traveler Says:
RB had commented that one day (in the new world order or something of the sort) we may have prostitution in Apollo.
Actually we already do, if by prostitution you mean sex for money and/or gifts.
March 13, 2007 at 1:59 am
Sheik, I am talking about Post #35, suggesting murder as a legitimate action, this is serious business. That post should be deleted immediately. Please act responsible.
Thanks,
March 13, 2007 at 2:13 am
The Axe (38,42): Are you retarded?
Not to sound arrogant, but the number of visitors to this discussion is growing, quite substantially. If you still feel the pressing need to share some information, it will be read.
March 13, 2007 at 2:19 am
No matter your feelings for the Fellowship or Robert, there is simply no excuse to leave these types of hatred-filled words on any blog, and especially on this one that is already so incendiary. Again, I request you remove Post #35 right away. Please act responsible.
Thank you.
March 13, 2007 at 2:29 am
If you still need a Teacher then you have not achieved nothing.
March 13, 2007 at 2:38 am
Something can be said about spending two or three short years in FOF. Robert never came to our house. It was the students who taught the essential and by so doing taught themselves and the newcomers. At least that’s the way ‘I’ saw it.
March 13, 2007 at 4:11 am
It would be extremely educative for all of those who haven’t had the opportunity to be “enlightened” by the new prehistoric knowledge first hand , to attend the meeting on friday and, while you’re staring at the new images and listening to their brilliant “keying” , to think VERY VERY HARD about your personal verifications, what brought you to the School in the first place and the upcoming spring donations…
March 13, 2007 at 4:56 am
Rodney Collin, The Theory of Conscious Harmony (p. 62):
“We must not forget that the soul grows by being given away. What does this mean for us, where we stand? Attention directs the matter of the soul. If we really GIVE our attention to others — to their needs, their hopes, their problems — we are beginning to give our soul. And that is how the soul grows. If one tries to make a soul to keep, it withers to nothing.”
March 13, 2007 at 5:09 am
Rodney Collin, The Theory of Conscious Harmony (p. 62):
“When people begin this work, they have to be told to observe themselves, study the machine they have to work with. Because they never took their own instrument, its possibilities and its limitations, into account before. But that doesn’t mean they have to go on thinking about themselves all the rest of their lives. If you want to study micro-biology, you first have to study your microscope, find out its magnifying power, adjustments, illumination, factor of distortion and so on. But when you’ve done that, you put all your attention onto your slides, and forget you are looking through a microscope altogether. Then your real discoveries begin.
Focus on self-study belongs to a definite stage. If it goes on too long, people become professional students, than which nothing is more useless. So they should begin transferring their focus of attention from themselves to their real life-work, whatever it may be. And the sooner they realize what their life-work is going to be, the sooner they will come to reality.”
March 13, 2007 at 5:36 am
OK, Sheik, I’ll take you up on your offer (Post 43). Thank you for providing this medium. I have the watched the collapse of communism, the rise of dishonest leaders, the atrocities of criminal wars, and the last half-century of political humbug silently, from my vulgar lunar grave, but it took the hooey posted here to bring me back from the dead.
Post 36 from Arthur brings up a point that I often wrote about – the divorce of words and meaning. Arthur apparently no longer expects words to mean anything. They might be a trick. ‘Intentional insincerity’, maybe. Or ‘burying the bone deeper’. ‘The Axe’ (38, 42) doesn’t appear to be able to connect words and thoughts at all.
There’s a number of reasons for the divorce. Mr. Burton says one year that Taiwan is a ‘giant dime store’, or words to that effect – the next year students were studying Chinese culture and collecting Chinese antiques. He once termed ancient Egypt a ‘king of clubs’ culture; within a few years, Fellowship students were making reverent pilgrimages there. His words reflect a current mood or feeling – they don’t reflect the way things really are. To deal with the contradictions, students had to change their relationship to language and truth.
Another example: Great prophecies were intoned and failed. Most students say they ‘didn’t care’. But it did have the effect of teaching them again not to expect the truth, not to expect that words mean anything. Words are used as a mood-enhancer, or background — like Muzak, or wallpaper.
After all, as one of the organization’s foremost professional angle-givers says, ‘We cannot know the truth at our level.’ But surely, since Ouspensky defines the work as ‘the study of lying’, they ought to try. And certainly they might begin by photographing lying, for starters.
One way to observe lying is to watch what a man says, and how he lives. But no! That’s his ‘private life’, his ‘own stuff’, and therefore exempt, they say. But that is nevertheless his being. Without looking at his being, they are left examining his knowledge – usually that means his words. The words from which, paradoxically, they have come to expect nothing anyway. Hence, they have created an inescapable mobius loop and, as an unfortunate by-product, a class of professional angle-givers – people whose lives in no way reflect the elevated words that they speak so prolifically, but whose words continue to ‘inspire’, whatever they might mean (they are, after all, only a pick-me-up). Some of these angle-givers circle the globe, talking, talking, talking.
They no longer how to look at words attentively and critically. Hence, as others have pointed out, the Fellowship organization can send out emails calmly promising to protect their privacy while setting about to violate it. As I pointed out in my landmark essay, words are not selected for meaning, but used in prefabricated phrases and clichés (‘precious teaching,’ ‘beloved teacher,’ ‘willoftheteacher,’ ‘formoftheschool,’ ‘task has ended,’ ‘we thank thee’) meant to convey an ambiance rather than express a thought or feeling as clearly as possible. In some cases, words are used to hide meaning, or convey the opposite of what they mean – ‘opportunity’ means ‘job’ or ‘friction’.
Several people have already been taken to task for alluding to these posts as a ‘crucifixion’ of Mr. Burton – because the word conveys nothing to them. A man who was publicly tried, reviled and humiliated, stripped naked, whipped and bludgeoned to the point of death, forced to carry his instrument of torture and then nailed to it, hanging there till he died in unimaginable agony – is glibly or hysterically compared to the annoyance caused by hearing words that are offensive, but apparently true.
I say ‘apparently’ because people have been invited to refute these words – no one has factually refuted them, though they have repeatedly taken objection to them. They don’t like the way the words make them ‘feel’ – feelings have displaced a sense of truth. Something is true if you ‘feel’ it is true, a ‘lie’ if you dislike it. (Without wishing to defend the person who made the fake post in her name, the woman named ‘Linda’ objects to being portrayed in a ‘false light’, without telling us what, exactly, is false about it – is the persona of her letter a ‘truer light’? In what sense? What does ‘false light’ mean, other to convey her understandable sense of offense?) Someone referred to ‘smearing’ Mr. Burton – but how do you ‘smear’ someone with the truth? Isn’t it rather like being ‘smeared’ with daylight?
Part of the problem, perhaps, is that they so often say, ‘facts lie,’ and they have come to believe this without reflection. That useful truism has nonetheless led them to mistrust and refute the simple and obvious and caused them to stagger around in the darkness for quite a while. Hence, the desert wanderings you see on this website – some posters referred to it as a ‘babel’. People no longer know anymore how to ‘be the words’ because words themselves have lost any meaning — they are an after-dinner drink or designer drug, and no predictor of actions. No one is held accountable for the words that pour out of their mouths – after all, the words were said in the past and they wish to be in the present. The ‘truth’ of five minutes ago is not the ‘truth’ of now. Hence, impulse is given license, and accountability vanishes along with common sense.
And so people here are trying to discern truth when they have lost all standards for truth and any taste for fact – the truth that we can know, the simple facts that are knowable (often binary – sorry non dualists! the light is either on or off). They have lost the taste for truth, as simple as bread. For example, at least a couple posts have said ‘there is no “you” and there is no “me”’ – so then why do they need to communicate at all (isn’t it rather like telephoning yourself)? On this website, they are trying to measure something, but they long ago broke all the yardsticks.
It’s like trying to look for virginity in a whorehouse.
Forgive any typos (I’m not used to a computer keyboard – and I miss my ancient Remington from London – I’m not used to speaking at all these last 57 years!). But please, all of you, read, learn, and inwardly digest my essay, ‘Politics and the English Language.’ Believe me, your disease is well advanced. You have lost the ability to grapple with a simple fact. Some of you can communicate only in quotations, and some of you can no longer think at all.
P.S. From my essay, since it’s not clear many of you still read books:
“The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish squirting out ink.”
“But if thought corrupts language, language can also corrupt thought.”
March 13, 2007 at 6:11 am
Last week there was an event with Robert where few Egyptian images were shown.On one image there was a bull who was excreting 6 pieces of shit.
Robert’s comment was “A low self,who is excreting the sequence”
(Now we know what “Bull shit” esoterically means)
March 13, 2007 at 6:15 am
And pardon me if I repeat myself. if I repeat myself. It’s this endless recurrence thing! Out here on the southern tip of the Sea of Tranquility (where the best croissants are), it’s hard to snap out of it snap out of it snap out of it
Wish you were here were here … as I suspect many of you will be (but not the blokes that you think think think
March 13, 2007 at 6:41 am
Once more into the fray!
When I left the school (the second time) a student asked me, “so, how does it feel to fall back into sleep?” Then she smiled haughtily at me. I was stunned into silence. How can one respond to such arrogance coming from someone you once considered a friend? Surely even the die-hard FOFers can admit that awakening has nothing to do with flagrantly putting oneself above others and yet, and yet, isn’t that what the dogma of the FOF is built upon?: We are the chosen ones. This is the only conscious school, etc. etc. We all know the lines and some of us, on the inside and on the outside, say we never believed it. I experienced the untruth of that statement for myself when, after the first time I left, at 19, I had to confront the fears that tore at me from the edges of my consciousness, like some horrible Bosche painting, whispering that perhaps I had, in fact, lost my soul. And I had lost so much. I had lost the ability to be as close to my mother as I wished. I had lost so many fine friends who shared a passion for evolving. I had lost the theater, the concerts, the fine dinners, the orchard. But after the dust settled and the fears dissipated, I came to realize I had gained the most important thing: my own upward beating heart; my own capacity to meet these momentary days and joyfully add myself to the count. You see, I left the first time because my “work I’s’ had run amuck—I had become a talking head, sounding quite nice and spouting work ideas but disconnected from my heart, my body, my dreams. “Life” had mistakenly been discarded in place of my very real desire to grow internally. It took my many years, going back in and back out to come to realize that awakening is not inner vs. outer nor is it a solitary effort; That spiritual work isn’t necessarily contrary to “material” existence. I believe in my heart that when any of us raise our awareness, raise our conscious desire to speak/look/feel love in and for this moment and everything it contains, we lift the entire world with us, closer to the heart of God. I know too, the good of the FOF– I feel it in my dear mama’s heart and in her kind and strong husband. I’ve tasted the beauty of it, and I will always feel the sadness of exclusion, of being on the outside (as long as the FOF keeps the walls up;). But I was excited and even thrilled when I learned that this forum had erupted into existence. Not because I wanted to see anyone hurt or taken down –or out, but because I truly believe that we can all help each other, that we do help each other, every time we open our eyes, open our hearts and speak our truths with an intention to evolve. My truth isn’t the same as anyone else’s, and that’s the beauty of it. We are all on our own adventure, together—what joy! —and we can learn so much, if we truly allow the “other” in.
I’m sorry to say, though, that the tone here has changed. What happened? From my cursory scanning it seems a big bad cry baby heaved a cannon ball of negativity in here and lot’s of people (not toeing the line that is) scrambled. Sure I’m for the expression of differing truths but those are truths with a small “t”–not THE ALMIGHTY TRUTH WHICH I WILL BANG OVER YOUR HEAD TILL YOU ACKNOWLEDGE IT. Reading CB’s post reproduced that sickening feeling that I discovered when I tried to explain the FOF to a friend around the second time I left. I had to ask myself: How could I be a part of something that made me feel sick to my stomach when describing the behavior of the teacher? (And don’t tell me I don’t know by personal experience a little about the suffering RB is causing; I dated some of his boys and I heard first-hand about their struggle to confront him, provoking a powerful negativity when they dared to refuse RB’s demands). I apologize for commenting on CBs post as everyone is, no doubt, a bit weary of the back and forth. But I wanted it to be pointed out simply and clearly: CB’s post reeks of precisely what is so wrong with the FOF. No, not everyone in it feels that way but if you don’t, and you’re still in it, I hope you have the courage to confront that kinds of ugliness, wherever and whenever it appears. I didn’t join the school for RB but I definitely left it because of him. And even if, as has been implied, his behavior acts as a kind of filter ensuring only the really serious ones get in and stay in, well then that is quite a dangerous little truth to build one’s life upon…Personally, I don’t want to close my eyes to what sickens me, I want to look clearly at myself and what surrounds me and do my part to lift it up and in. I have my own sexual deviancies, but thank god don’t have a budget! and RB has provided a powerful lesson of where NOT TO GO.
Another student recently wrote me that if I ever get disappointed enough in “life,” she hopes I’ll return to the FOF. How subtly that sentence evoked a sickening feeling in me again—I have not been able to respond to her so perhaps I am as spineless as CB accused. But I think, rather, it is that I don’t care to respond. I am content to find my own touchstone, deep inside my own true life experience. I have come to trust my body, my heart, and my mind, to guide me where I can continue to evolve. (I had a barely English speaking Latino busboy remind me to be present in LA; clearly, the FOF has no monopoly on that!) I have found a wonderful dance work (5Rhythms, there’s a class in GV/NC if you want to dance yourself free) to practice being present IN my body, through my feelings, not by splitting off from them. I have several wonderful friends who I feel are evolving, I can see it in their eyes, I can feel it in their loving presence. And who knows, maybe someday I will rejoin the Fellowship, but that day could only come if and when RB lays down his instrument of pleasure/torture and admits he’s got a problem (hey, don’t we all?) or at least stops making his students pay royally for it, when all the spiritual tyrants like CB go bury themselves somewhere else in steaming piles of their own negativity…and I’m optimistic –or is it naïve?– enough to hope for that day…a day when I can walk freely with my mama again, through the orchards and the vines, around the ponds and the gravestones… and hold her hand as she holds mine, laughing and free (not that the FOF could EVER take that away from us, we have our ways—once a merc, always a…well you know)….
And so I leave you all with this wish, for the FOF, and for every city in this troubled nation and every town across the globe:
I dream’d in a dream I saw a city invincible to the attacks of the whole
of the rest of the earth,
I dream’d that was the new city of Friends
Nothing was greater there than the quality of robust love, it led the rest,
It was seen every hour in the actions of the men [and women] of that city,
And in all their looks and words.
Walt Whitman
March 13, 2007 at 9:34 am
While i was meditating today(Mostly on bemoaning my outcast state as i have been quite depressed as of late)outside a child yelled a couple times loadly “Mary had a little lamb.” I don’t know the last time i heard that rhyme, it could have been years ago or last week.The thing is i had just read Blake’s poem on this blog the night before and it made a synchronous connection within me. I made the connection! The 44’s, the looking down at the odometer when it rolls to 44, the looking at the digital clock as it turns to 12:44 and the miriad of banal and profound coincidences are connections made by our own minds. The kicker is the child could have yelled “Mary had a Baleful Bedouin of Baloney” and it makes no difference. These connections are made within our own minds. If we look to these events as some sort indication or a verification of something we are decieving ourselves, we are being superstitious. If someone is pointing to them as being something we are being conned.
The universe is always talking to us and we often don’t like what it is saying but it is always on our side. It is an inside out invisible cloak wrapping us always.
March 13, 2007 at 10:28 am
Dear Rita,
Pier Paolo PASOLINI is the right name.
Extract from “Religion of my Time”, first line, 4th poem:
” Poor, joyful chirsts of fourteen…”
… they sell themselves even if nobody pays them, ragged and elegantly going…”
One or some of those “Poor christs” eventually did kill him in 1964…
March 13, 2007 at 3:42 pm
To those concerned about Robert’s wellbeing:
The man I mentioned in my previous post is not a student anymore and doesn’t live in the US, so he is not presenting any immediate danger to Robert.
March 13, 2007 at 4:24 pm
Sheik, You are in queque at a money bank with 25 other human beings. Four robbers come in yelling like animals and firing automatic assult rifles.
Ouspensky said if man could be called an animal he could be called a lying animal.
Humans seldom say what they mean nor mean what they say.
I would say that most of the humans posting on this blog found themselves in a bank robbery as mentioned could not describe the bank robbers even after looking at each one, nor could they remember if it was sunny or raining out.
There are a lot of smart asses on this blog.
March 13, 2007 at 6:09 pm
I have been reading this blog for one week and am wondering in amazement at all these postings–an incredible outpouring of emotions. There is really a lot going on in the FOF and out of the FOF! I thought it was winding down but it keeps going. Inner Jewels story today is beautiful and humbling and inserts a much needed perspective.
But I take issue with the notion that seems so imbedded in the thinking apparent here is that staying in the FOF is the equivalent of condoning Robert’s behavior.
Until this Blog I am sure no one knew what was going on, and that is assuming we have a truthful picture now, which really remains to be seen–no one has confirmed any of the more explicit posters. Is all of this troubling? yes, very much so, but can Love overcome all of this? I do not know the answer.
But also on the other hand, dont we all know that we are born free and are responsible for that freedom?–yes free to leave if we choose or stay and also free not to condone Robert’s conduct, and also free not to judge him, and free to say no, and free to not be the victim of “date rape” or free to not have our spouses lie to us, etc.
What is up with the victimization? What does it matter where we are from? There are laws in this great country and everyone knows that we are supposed to be free. Is that not what the FOF is teaching us?
As for me I choose to remain Wild & Free
March 13, 2007 at 7:38 pm
If you tend to gloss over the longer posts, I humbly suggest you go back and read #50 from George Orwell and #52 from Inner Jewels.
A thought from Mr Orwell on the subject of this blog: “people (FOF defenders) have been invited to refute these words – no one has factually refuted them, though they have repeatedly taken objection to them. They don’t like the way the words make them ‘feel’ – feelings have displaced a sense of truth. Something is true if you ‘feel’ it is true, a ‘lie’ if you dislike it.”
Yes, conscience and independent thought slowly atrophy in the FOF. It seems that now most of the students who can still think for themselves are departing, leaving only those who have given up their entire lives to Mr Burton. Maybe it’s all for the best.
March 13, 2007 at 8:25 pm
George Orwell (#50) wrote: “Great prophecies were intoned and failed.”
How can you say that? One of the first of the predictions, made sometime in the 1970s by Mr. Burton, foretold the great depression of 1984 — think of the irony Mr. Orwell: 1984! We all remember that — the preparations were made, with stores of canned food, bottled water, and multiple backup copies of Pachelbel’s Canon. And we hunkered down and rode out that tragic time as, just as Robert predicted, the stock markets crashed and the world economy was left in tatters.
Then came Robert’s oft-forgotten observation of Gorbachev — how the birthmark on his head made him “look like he’d been clubbed” — a horrible omen, and a sure sign of the impending hydrogen warfare to come. And we all know what a yukky mess of things Gorbachev made!
I hope I’m not forgetting anything, but next I recall the prophecy of California’s massive earthquake and slide into the sea in, 1998 was it? Uncanny in its accuracy, and a good thing too. That property I bought for a song outside Sacramento is prime beachfront now, thanks to Mr. RB’s crystal-ball and navel gazing.
Then, finally, tragically, the atomic war of 2006 — as predicted, perfectly on schedule. As we crawl back into the sky shrouded in perpetual nuclear winter, through the twisted and smoking ruins of our once proud cities, I shed no tear for the billions of mechanical dead. No, I continue my journey through the waste to the one remaining spot on earth untouched by the horror of holocaust — Isis, miraculously untouched! As though a crystal bubble gently shielded it from the scorching fires of fusion and corrupting radioactivity.
Miraculous foresight! Blessed prophecy! Prehistoric doggy-style hoochie coochie man!
March 13, 2007 at 8:40 pm
The goal of the student is to surpass their teacher. It is also the goal of a teacher.
“…we but level that lift to pass and continue beyond.” – Walt Whitman
March 13, 2007 at 8:45 pm
#57 “Wild & Free” tells us that we are “free to not be the victim of “date rape.”
Huh?
Let’s say someone is standing in front of me, pointing a gun at my head, about to pull the trigger. How exactly am I free not to be murdered?
Same idea, different crime.
Also, you say we are free not to judge Robert. Conversely, I am free to judge him. And I do. And I will continue to do so for the forseeable future.
You see, unlike so many people today, i don’t think that “it’s all good.” I think some things are bad, and some people do some very bad things, for which they should be held accountable.
I think much of the anger that is coming out on the blog about Robert is akin to what’s happening with the Bush administration. People in power who are abusing their positions with no consequences or accountability.
Last I heard, Bush’s approval rating was at 29%. But then, 29% of people will believe pretty much anything — in a country, a church, or a school.
March 13, 2007 at 8:58 pm
The Wanderer’s Peace of Mind
______________________
Over this let none lament,
Baseness all perverted;
That it is omnipotent
Can’t be controverted.
In the bad it gains its ends,
Rules there, never losing,
And at will the good it bends,
Sovereignty abusing.
Wanderer! – Why should you oppose
Power so coercive?
Arid muck and wind that blows,
Let them whirl dispersive.
March 13, 2007 at 10:43 pm
I was looking at my lower self the other day…what an ugly creature! I tought that the years spent in getting free of the judgment toward the machine were over. But then the lower self comes in, has horns, tail, smells like a wet dog and ask for a glass of wine.
I told him to get lost, we don’t want these kind of people around here, but it doesn’t leave. Doesn’t matter how much I criticize him or hate him, it just stay with me all the time.
I love the feeling of guilt of living with such a creature; I’m never alone and I can always feel bad…fantastic!
It’s almost better then the catholic church, with all the sinning and crying….
enough of this….
March 13, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Hey Dad! We are having a great depression in 1984 . Make arrangements before you lose all the family money. Hey, good friend! We are having a great depression in 1984, do what’s necessary with your money and possessions. Hey, gang! California is falling into the sea, move before you all drown.
Dad, good friend, gang! I’m so sorry.
March 13, 2007 at 11:28 pm
Innernaut–I know plenty who have said “NO” so don’t compare this to a gun to the head! You have free will to leave right? so what happened to the free will to “JUST SAY NO”?
Wild & Free
March 14, 2007 at 12:18 am
Re: Wild & Free #57:
You’re sure that no one, until this blog, new what was “going on”?
I presume you are either very young or a Solar type.
Well, what is it, exactly, that is “going on”? What you see here is a collection of postings from a wide variety of people, and mostly these are opinions. There are some presumably honest first-person stories; those are illuminating (for me). So, what is it that is “going on”? There’s a forum that hasn’t existed before that is allowing an open discussion of Fellowship experience.
That’s what’s going on.
Anything that is worth the kind of investment that the FOF requires must stand up to scrutiny. Scrutiny (that would be critical thinking, aka Psychological Thinking) is in short supply generally.
So, I would ask why we don’t scrutinize our own reactions, also. What is so troubling about gay sex? I assume that is what is meant when bloggers, specifically Wild&Free, refer to the “more explicit posts”.
And, rhetorically, is it our business? This is a serious question, not meant to be dismissive.
Verification seems to functionally mean “having faith in”, as opposed to “testing through experiment”. Why do we have such faith in our unquestioned assumptions?
It’s the cogitating bloggers that i find useful to read – the ones who have really given it the old college try and have had to suffer through the uncertainty and pain before coming to their own courageous conclusions.
March 14, 2007 at 1:07 am
I understand people’s unwillingness to leave the fellowship, part of ‘sleep’ is justifying our actions to ourselves, and having invested heavily in the school it is hard to admit that it may be time to let go. Fear generally is one of the biggest hurdles. Conflict is the opposite of harmony and ultimately seeks resolution. Each of us is alone until we realise that we are not separate after all, but part of the whole. I once experienced something impossible to put into words, but to approximate; I was the absolute/god/the source/the creator, which is ever moving, evolving and creating itself for the pure joy of experiencing itself, and all creation (including each of us ‘humans’ with our little lives, like the life of each living cell, or each gaseous body known as stars) is nothing but a transient and unreal speck of that creation, made by and for the absolute, for the purpose of allowing it to exist and experience itself. (A near death experience, so not a permanent change of ‘state’, but a permanent change of perspective). All we need to ‘do’ is to allow ourselves to be as open as possible, sensitive and attentive to our awareness whatever that brings. Each of us may or may not feel we need a teacher and/or school to help us, if you do and are hesitant to leave the FOF, there is other help in abundance (see links). Trust that you will find what you need, but beware ‘help’ becoming ‘props’ is my advice, for what it’s worth.
http://www.livereal.com/spiritual_arena/spiritual_giants_expanded_version.htm
http://www.satsang.nl/linkseng.html
http://home.wanadoo.nl/prembuddha/link.html
http://www.mysticsmasters.com/link.html
March 14, 2007 at 1:19 am
Bravo, Mr. Orwell! Do you think you could write to Bush and the rest of those mutton heads in congress
March 14, 2007 at 1:31 am
One and All (67): It is with great displeasure that I allow people (even if I agree with their viewpoint, aims and aspirations) to post links to other spiritual teachers/schools/centres.
Helping people to escape a prison by offering them a different one is no means of escape. It seems to have worked for some of the people I have met on the blog, but it feels very very wrong.
But then again, what is a prison for one is something completely else for another. I hope.
The important question is whether you believe that by giving people the option of listening to someone else, rather than opening their minds to a different perspective on the process of learning, you best facilitate their freedom and spiritual growth?
Damn, I am posting again, after a promise to detach myself from this discussion. Bad boy, sheik, bad sheik!
March 14, 2007 at 2:00 am
Sheik (69),
Ha ha! One thing is certain, “we are many I’s”! One of mine, having followed the postings on this blog for some time, was not to succumb to posting myself, so I am also ‘bad’!
The links were sent in the spirit of freindship, I met many noble and sensitive eople in the FOF, and as I said, I trust that each of us finds what we need. But I take your point, though open prison presumably is better than guantanamo bay?! I personally have not joined any other groups and feel that it is better for each person to work things out for themselves, but surely a sound crutch is better than a cracked one, and some of the sites indicate whether or not any ‘scandal’ is associated with the groups. Sorry if I broke blog rules, I have no personal connection with any of these links or groups. My ‘way’ since leaving FOF is to explore widely and gain what I can as I go along. Daily life often holds the most profound lessons, if one can be open to what one experiences. I was interested in your questions about suffering and would like to see discussions on this, as well as more input by yourself, so maybe you could retract your promise?
Can I break another rule and change my name to ‘idiots one and all’?
March 14, 2007 at 5:12 am
I agree with “Still Crazy” that this is a great forum and one that hasn’t existed before regarding the discussion of Fellowship and that the FOF must stand up to scrutiny.
And yes I am solar type (solar/lunar)but not so young anymore so therefore I am afraid I am not a candidate for this challenge–I was never approached by the Teacher when I was living in Apollo during three years–lucky?.
But, according to “Still Crazy” (Post 66)this Blog tells us what is really going on. I disagree. I have not seen anything of the kind here, all we get is horror stories that no one is confirming. No one from direct experience.
When the one brave soul came forward on this Blog with his own direct experience (Mr. Simon) he told us he was plied with cognac and visions of angels but when asked some reaslly direct questions if he was truthful he quickly took off on his trusty steed into the sunset. I guess we will never know.
What I have not seen on this Blog is anyone who supports the outrageous sex scandals described and anything like a gun to anyone’s head. There appears to be no truth to it, or it is wildly exaggerated. If there are people being “bought” with gifts, etc, than they are selling themselves cheaply, but this does not mean they are not doing whatever they are doing out of their own free will. I am a big believer in total freedom!
March 14, 2007 at 8:23 am
Thank you Mr. Orwell for turning me toward that revered work you undertook so many years ago which i might add did little to reverse the course of the inevitable decline of the written word. I was not unfamiliar with said essay but it had been some time since i had turned it over in my head and now having reviewed it i have come to the conclusion that most, if not all of us, participating in this conversation can relate to it vis a vis our common ground of the fof.
The cutting edge propounded in your essay is precisely why a special work vocabulary is needed. Rock solid, concrete terms such as identification, imagination, self-remembering, feminine dominance, self, soul and suck are needed to insure certain and unambiguous understanding between participants and there can be no doubt they have served their purpose as a beacon for those who utilize them.
In concluding, though it has been 61 years since your words were written, they still ring true today and i,for one, have taken them to heart and will endeaver to apply them in all future postings though i am certain that it is no secret to anyone reading that i am well on the way to susinctity and brevity.
P.S. (post 51) Nice double entendre double entendre. Are there crescent rolls crescent rolls
March 14, 2007 at 9:35 am
The Sheik (69) suggests that ‘opening our mind to a different perspective on learning’ is better than listening to other people, yet this blog is all about listening to others perspectives, so I am not sure that I understand this point. He implies that being in the FOF we just listened to the teacher and unthinkingly did what he said. Maybe some of us did, but most of us were trying to integrate the ‘work ideas’ and verify things for ourselves. Gurdjieff said we need a school to help us, others say not. Maybe sometimes we do, other times we don’t, or some of us do, others don’t. The Sheik likened being in a school or group to being in prison; we remain in the prison of our subjectivity no matter where we are if we aren’t aware of it. My original posting was an attempt to help anyone considering leaving the FOF to overcome the fear of isolation that some have expressed. Maybe the following will meet with the Sheik’s approval:
There are so many gurus in the world, the hidden ones and the open ones. Each of them promises that, through conformity to a certain system or method, the mind will arrive at that realization of what truth is; but no system or method — which implies imitation, conformity, following, and thereby fear — has any significance whatever for a mind that is enquiring into this whole question of life, a question which needs such a delicate, highly sensitive intelligent mind.
The guru is supposed to know and you not to know. He is supposed to be far advanced in evolution and has therefore immense knowledge. And you, who are down below, are gradually going to come to that highest form of knowledge. This whole hierarchical system – which exists not only outwardly in society but also inwardly and among the so-called gurus – is obviously, when one is enquiring into what is truth, an illusion.
There is no path to truth. There is not your path or my path. There is no Christian way to it, or Hindu way to it. A ‘way’ implies a static process to something which is also static. There is a way from here to that next village, the village is firmly there, rooted in the buildings, and there is a road to it. But truth is not like that, it is a living thing, a moving thing and therefore there can be no path to it, neither yours nor mine nor theirs.
To proceed with this problem, to learn, to see, there must be the quietness of a mind that is not broken up, that is not torn apart, that is not tortured. If I want to see something very clearly, the tree, or the cloud, or the face of a person next to me, to see clearly without any distortion, the mind must not be chattering, obviously. The mind must be very quiet to observe, to see. And the very seeing is the doing and the learning.
(J. Krishnamurti)
So how come, Sheik, we can quote other people but not links to websites?
March 14, 2007 at 9:46 am
I remember Rita well. She first appeared at Isis in 95 or 96. There was a genunine sweetness about her.
It seems her experiences since that time have soured her considerably.
To paraphase Gurdjieff, if the universe were a large city the earth would be in a very bad neighborhood of that city. If you live there any length of time you are bound to get roughed up, even mugged a few times.
Sometimes the police (RB) will even mug you just to motivate you to depart (do not identify) and find a better habitat. That works for some, but for others it just drives them into their rooms. They are temporarily safer there, but what they don’t understand is that their rooms are still in a house in the same bad neighborhood, on the wrong side of the tracks.
Eventually they will have to come out and find themselves at the same point on the spiritual path.
Rita and others, you cannot progress, with or without FOF until you transform your suffering which has produced all this loathing of Robert as a by-product. Not only loathing, but hubris, in being so sure you are right about all this. How can you, me or anyone else have the whole unadulterated truth? As Christ asked Pilate, “What is truth”?
My understanding is that Robert is only doing his job, and doing it well. Its a dangerous occupation to judge a man who has escaped. He is so far on the other shore his actions are incomprehensible to us. Some of us can only verify for ourselves that his methods work and then try to hold on when things get messy.
March 14, 2007 at 10:12 am
Rita, what do YOU think, after hearing from your friend, is murder an acceptable aspiration for the young member? What was your reaction when you were told this? Did you support this emotion?
Wild & Free
March 14, 2007 at 2:01 pm
One and All (74): No need to argue against me, I am on your side.
First, there are no rules on what you can or can not post, except for 1) obscenities, 2) blatant advertising. Those two will most probably be deleted. Except for John’s posts, I don’t believe I have yet deleted anything that was missed.
Second, I disagree with the notion that in order to free yourself from one form of oppression (FoF), you have to listen to another teaching that will lead you where FoF failed to lead. I believe that FoF is oppressive for the reason that it promotes faith in the RB teaching, while blocking freedom of expression, verification, and questioning. Other teachings/schools may or may not be the same in that respect. What I don’t like is the way that schools teach you to believe in something in order to make it work, claiming that if it doesn’t work, you simply aren’t trying hard enough. As far as I am concerned, it either works or it doesn’t.
It seems more logical to me to find out what works (and, fair enough, a school or a teacher may be helpful in that, even though it is not the way I would choose), then believe in it, not the other way around. Forcing yourself to believe in something and then hoping that it will work seems like too much work with little result.
Equally so, swapping one teacher for another with the faith that one day someone (maybe the next teacher) will lead you there, seems a little bit foolish to me. I do not disagree with the notion that there are people who can teach us important things, but I do not think that they can provide what most people on this blog are/have been searching for. That is my opinion, however badly explained, I do not neccessarily believe that it is right. But as far as I can see, that’s how I work.
It was hard enough to understand (and believe) that some people have benefited from the membership of FoF, that for them, it was almost a necessary experience.
Some people need a cult, others suffering, others yet love, others don’t need anything. Different roads lead to Rome, it is just a question whether it is always the same Rome.
More importantly, my spam filter is playing games with me and blocking more and more posts. Sadly enough, it now also disallows me from accessing it. If your post does not appear after you have posted it, it means that you may have to post it under a different name or send it directly to my e-mail address. It seems to me that the spam filter blocks long names (such as mine or BBB’s), so shortening your name may be one way to resolve the issue.
You will know that your post has not been blocked if it appears on the blog after you have sent it, with a little tag explaining that it is waiting to be moderated.
March 14, 2007 at 3:24 pm
Hello Howard,
I don’t think it’s appropriate to post personal observations about someone who writes on the blog.
On your advice to me and others to transform something that we need to, I can only say again that I am not Robert’s judge, neither I hate him, but due to my character I act upon something I consider wrong or unjust. Writing on this blog gave me the opportunity to do just that.
You mentioned progress of some kind, I would recommend you to read the postings of No person to see if there’s another way to think about it.
Frankenstein, please read my posting again, it is written clearly what I think and how I feel about those words.
March 14, 2007 at 3:34 pm
Also I believe that it was Pilate who asked Christ the question ‘What is truth’, after which he sanctioned his crucifixion and went to wash his hands.
March 14, 2007 at 3:37 pm
Rita is still genuinely sweet! Seems like her experiences have soured her view on the cult she once belonged to. Fine. She is simply pointing out that some people have extreme emotions towards Robert for his extreme sexual depravity. Better that this young man acknowledges his anger and expresses it to a friend, than keeping it bottled up for 30 years of his life as so many have.
March 14, 2007 at 4:48 pm
Picture a “teaching house” in an American city. It is several years ago. A small group of people are gathered inside the house when a man knocks at the door. He is welcomed inside. His first impressions of the people in the house are that they are intelligent, friendly, well-dressed, and well-mannered. He enjoys meeting them and is glad he has found them.
The occasion? His “first prospective student meeting” with the Fellowship of Friends.
Within a few minutes, the group sits down in the living room to discuss the ideas of George Gurdjieff and Peter Ouspensky. The participants follow an informal outline. Within that outline, members of the group are welcome to express their “angles” on the ideas. People raise their hands, and the leader calls on them. The meeting has a certain harmony to it, and the ideas are presented clearly/concisely.
During the meeting, the man recognizes that he has a rapport with the people in the room. He feels a connection to them. He can relate to the ideas. He is drawn to the notion that through focused inner work — and with the help of others who are involved in the same work — a person might begin to see themselves and potentially reach a higher level of consciousness.
——-
That’s how it began for many of us. During that time when we met the Fellowship, some of us tried to explain “the ideas” to friends and family members before joining the group. Usually we fell flat on our faces in doing so. For whatever reasons, they could not see what we could see. So it was a refreshing change to meet people who had studied the books of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, and Rodney Collin and also found something special in them. Somewhat inexplicably and mysteriously, these people were immediately impressed by the ideas just as we were. We may not have understood the ideas entirely, we may not have verified the ideas, and we may not have agreed with all of the ideas. But we sensed there was truth in the books. And when we found a group of people who felt the same way, there was magic in that.
To many members, this was (and is) one of the wonders of being in the Fellowship — the camaraderie of friends. Together, we would make sense of this tangled mess called Earth, and we would live together, laugh together, and grow together. We would have a common sense of purpose. We sensed we were connected with a group of people who were not “identified” with the earthly desires for wealth and riches and power. We sensed we were connected to people who didn’t participate in the display of knowledge for the sake of displaying knowledge. No, what we were learning was real and practical and immediate and directly applicable to each of us. We were compelled to LIVE these ideas. We were compelled to “be the words.”
——-
At the time, probably no one came close to imagining this –- that one day in the future we would be sitting at computers and typing our thoughts about the Fellowship, and transmitting those thoughts over a vast worldwide network where other members and former members — and just curious onlookers — could read what we had to say. (Thank you for that, Sheik.)
Here and now, many of us are joining the discussion partly to emphasize the lack of critical thinking within the group. We don’t see this as benign. We see consequences from the constant denial — consequences both for ourselves and for our friends. So naturally, we’re expressing our concern. Because whether or not we are still members of the group, we know that critical thinking is an essential part of our work, and an essential part of our mental well-being and vitality, and an essential part of acting and working in good faith. We all find ourselves continuously facing the influence of “group think” while making any number of decisions throughout our daily lives -– whether it’s going to the polls and voting for president, or whether it’s simply deciding whether or not to believe what we hear and read in the mass media.
Today, in this blog, some of us point out that members of the Fellowship lack the ability to state their concerns directly and firmly to the leaders of the group, and to do so without fear of being removed from it.
The same old responses to these concerns continue to fall short:
– That the suffering caused by the group is somehow for our own benefit, for our evolution.
– That anything that seems objectionable is simply a way for us to see our mechanical reactions.
– That our situation as sleeping beings is so dire that we should allow ourselves to experience anything without questioning it.
– That it is “feminine dominance” or “inner considering” to question authority or listen to anyone who questions authority.
– That we should always be willing to give up our will, because our false personalities are the reasons that we ignore or contest another’s will.
– That it is somehow harmful to the school and our own evolution to question the activities or the attitudes of the school, because the school is being guided by Higher Forces, and because it’s being guided by someone who is beyond criticism.
——-
Higher Forces want us to think.
They, whoever they are, want us to think critically and openly and to share those thoughts with our fellow students and with those who lead us. Why? Because they know that the foundation of self-observation and self-remembering is the ability to direct our critical thinking inward — without judgment — towards our own “machines,” towards our own egos, towards our own habitual ways of thinking about the world.
And part of this critical thinking means the ability to recognize when we selectively ignore certain aspects of ourselves that we find uncomfortable –- or when we selectively ignore certain aspects of the world around us that we find uncomfortable. By consistently trampling these perceptions about ourselves and the world we are immersed in, we can only weaken whatever it is inside of us that enables us to see ourselves.
Therefore, those of us who knocked at that door some time ago would like to know:
Is it possible for us to think critically, to speak critically, and to do so with love, compassion, and forgiveness? And to direct that criticism toward others and toward ourselves for the common good –- for own good? Because if it is not possible, then there can only be arrogance, hatred, lost friendships, and more sadness in all of this — no matter how articulate we may be in stating our opinions.
If it is possible, then something very special can grow from this.
March 14, 2007 at 5:30 pm
Howard Carter (#75) wrote: “Rita and others, you cannot progress, with or without FOF until you transform your suffering which has produced all this loathing of Robert as a by-product. Not only loathing, but hubris, in being so sure you are right about all this.”
You have diagnosed Rita’s problem with absolute certainy — you seem quite sure you are right. Guess hubris cuts both ways, eh?
You also write:
“My understanding is that Robert is only doing his job, and doing it well.”
It’s your understanding, fair enough.
“Its a dangerous occupation to judge a man who has escaped.”
Leaving aside the dubious claim of his having escaped, where’s the danger? Says who? Are the 44 like Mafia dons bent on revenge when double-crossed? Will Rita wake up with a Medici-era marble horse-head in her bed?
“He is so far on the other shore his actions are incomprehensible to us.”
What shore? You say, essentially, that the “lower cannot see the higher.” If you can’t see it, how do you know anything about this “shore”? And even if there is a shore, how do you know there’s always something good over there? Maybe — MAYBE — some teachers end up on some wonderful green shore with flowers and whatnot (metaphorically speaking), but what if Robert’s shore is a withered bog? How can you tell? I would suggest that you can start by looking at what is available for us to see — Robert’s actions, and the results of those actions.
And then when you see something that doesn’t look so great, if all you can say is, “Well, he’s so far ahead I guess I just can’t understand” — ai, yi, yi.
See, the problem is, you take a bunch of what would be considered bad behavior in anyone else, and then say, no, Robert’s special, you see, it’s not bad when HE does it. IF YOU BELIEVE THAT, YOU ARE MORE DEEPLY ASLEEP THAN WHEN YOU BEGAN THIS WHOLE THING. It’s a real danger, this. If you don’t believe me, read your workbooks — it’s in there.
“Some of us can only verify for ourselves that his methods work and then try to hold on when things get messy.”
Yuk. Not touching that one.
March 14, 2007 at 6:09 pm
Another point of view
Expressing a suicidal thought is often necessary in the process of healing. It is a step up from depression and as every member of the fof knows…DO NOT BELIEVE THE “I”s. It is a “watch out” step. When climbing out of a depression and becoming angry, the anger can be direct to one self and can lead to suicide in worse case scenario. Listen when ever somebody feels safe to express its deepest thoughts and see it as a compliment for your worthy relationship, please listen and stay with this person.
(In this society one reason to keep depressed people under sedation is to prevent angriness or violence, violence ot oneself or others… it does not heal people…it keeps them quiet)
The rumor goes around when BS committed suicide he tried to call RB..but was not allowed to talk to RB….I do not know if this is true…maybe other people know more about this and would like to share.
God forgive them because they do not know what they say. Jesus
Have you ever been depressed? Has your conscience ever bothered you so much that you could not move or became sick or could not sleep or that you wanted to hurt yourself…?
Have you ever looked back in your life and realized, ” that was naive and hurtful or stupid or whatever….”.I am ashamed I would not do that again, because I gained some more wisdom? Have you ever…..?
Thanks all for sharing your point of view and thanks that there is this blog.
There is no need for agreeing or disagreeing….
All is what should be now.
I am still pondering regarding Vena…what can we do for a sick man who influences many lives, not only ours but also our children and grandchildren.
March 14, 2007 at 6:18 pm
Howard Carter writes: My understanding is that Robert is only doing his job, and doing it well. Its a dangerous occupation to judge a man who has escaped. He is so far on the other shore his actions are incomprehensible to us. Some of us can only verify for ourselves that his methods work and then try to hold on when things get messy.
Howard, what evidence do you have that Robert has “escaped”? In what way have you verified that his methods work? Simply making these grandiose statements as if they are indisputable facts is a lazy way of buffering the obvious.
March 14, 2007 at 6:26 pm
Hey, George! Mount Holyoke has your essay online:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
But I think we’ve perfected a thing or two that you never dreamed of! You mention that some people can “communicate only in quotations.” I’ve been to whole dinners where people do little more than swap quotes, in “Can You Top This?” fashion, or maybe “What’s My Line?” Where no one will formulate or offer a thought of their own!
I went to a discussion of Shakespeare’s Sonnets some years back, when that was still the fashion. Talk about pouring from the empty into the void! People had completely lost track of the idea that these were words written by the bard intending to mean what they say. That, on the simplest level, a pretty girl playing a lute was a pretty girl playing a lute, and not just World 12 trying to evoke the Steward or whatever. As if Shakespeare were sitting down, trying to find ways to puzzle and confuse us.
That was long before the “keys.” It’s gotten worse. Nothing ever means what the words say anymore, and nothing is ever quoted in full. Which makes nonsense of Passerby, in Post 15, quoting the passage about the woman “caught in the act of adultery” and about to be stoned to death. Last I heard, “Thou shalt not commit adultery” had nothing to do with screwing, any more than “stealing” is about taking stuff. Robert said “adultery” had something to do with dabbling in B Influences.
I wonder if they caught her reading “The Power of Now.”
March 14, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Wild and Free says: What I have not seen on this Blog is anyone who supports the outrageous sex scandals described and anything like a gun to anyone’s head. There appears to be no truth to it, or it is wildly exaggerated.
I find it hard to credit that you believe this. If you want to know what really goes on, ask some of the participants or someone who is close to them. If you find out that the stories are true, you may come to realize that you and everyone else remaining in the FOF supports these activities, if only by turning a blind eye to them.
March 14, 2007 at 6:39 pm
“A Dubious Fragment From The Teachings Of Gurdjieff”
Near the end of his life, after the conclusion of the Second World War, G was in his apartment with a group of his closest students. G was reading a newspaper, when suddenly a story caught his attention. He read it from top to bottom, as the students waited expectantly, as they had come to know G’s mannerisms and habits, and that he would soon have something to say on whatever had so fascinated him.
Eventually, he put down the paper, lit a cigarette, and stared into the distance. Then he began to speak:
“I have just read here an account of a German prisoner of war camp. It was filled with hundreds of American and British soldiers captured in the fighting. Of course, the first duty of a prisoner is to escape, so they immediately made a plan and put it into operation.
The prisoners lived in wooden huts some distance from the high barbed-wire fences. Guard towers on every corner and constant patrols by armed Germans and dogs made going through the fence impossible. So they had the idea to dig a tunnel that would come out on the other side of the fence, in the woods where they could exit the tunnel undetected. Eventually, they meant to have nearly all the prisoners escape in a single night.
They set to work at once. Each prisoner had a job. Some dug, some found ways to hide the dirt. Others made documents and travel papers in case the prisoners were stopped once they had escaped. Each prisoner had a role to play, and they all worked day and night.
Finally came the evening for the escape. The prisoners assembled in the long tunnel, waiting for the first man to break through the last bit of dirt into the woods. The shovel went up, but — they had miscalculated — the tunnel was many feet short of the woods!
A few prisoners managed to make it to the woods before the guards heard the commotion and discovered almost all the prisoners still in the tunnel. Most of the few that did make it out were caught or killed the next day in the nearby town.
Out of the hundreds of prisoners, only two managed to get away undetected.”
G closed his newspaper.
The students were quiet. Finally one asked timidly, “You once compared life on earth to a prison, saying the only way to escape was for many prisoners to work together, in a school — that a person could not escape on their own.”
“Yes, so?” G asked, rather shortly.
“But in this story almost none of the prisoners escaped. In fact they were probably punished even more for having tried.”
“True, true,” said G.
“Well what are we to do?” cried the student in despair.
“Pray you get lucky? I don’t know. Maybe I got my original story wrong. Maybe it’s not that it takes a group working together to escape. Maybe a group will attract too much attention. Better for someone to bake you a file into a cake, then slip out on your own.” said G.
“Well…” said another student, somewhat despondently, “at least two did escape.”
G looked at him with scorn. “You like those odds? You idiot.”
The students were silent for some time. Finally one student asked,
“The two prisoners that did escape — did they have any special qualities we might emulate?”
“Let’s see,” said G, returning to his paper. “One of them was completely blind, the other so claustrophobic he could barely get through the tunnel. Enough of this nonsense! Who wants a drink?”
March 14, 2007 at 8:01 pm
Yesri Baba (#73): I’m not sure that a work language protects us. How often have you heard someone say, “You are just identified,” when they mean “I don’t like what you say”? How often has any decent human impulse towards kindness been dismissed as “feminine dominance”? As one devoted older student once pointed out to me, the word “octave” used to remind us that we were participating in processes larger than ourselves, which put us under certain laws – now it has become synonymous with the word “job” – as in “that’s my octave!” False personality has appropriated the term. It seems any language gets distorted when it gets repeated enough, routinely enough – that is to say, when it becomes cliché.
Guess there really is no substitute for thinking.
March 14, 2007 at 9:03 pm
Innernaut, great story, I need that drink!
March 14, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Dear Wild & Free (72):
You say that no one is confirming the horror stories. Besides Simon (post 72 on the 1st board), there was another poster, Anony non (post 89 on the first board) who said that his experience was similar to Simon’s. There are also many very credible sounding secondhand accounts here, such as, just to pick a couple, posts 144 and 185 on the second board. Information about the lawsuits can be read on post 79 of the first board.
I was contacted years ago by a student I had known in the FOF who was contemplating suing Robert for sexual exploitation. I knew he lived with Robert but I had no idea what was going on until years after I left the school. Through Stella Wirk and her newsletter I heard of others with similar stories. That was over 20 years ago.
Look, the information is out there, but it is hardly surprising that people are not coming forward in great numbers to tell their stories on the Internet. Would you? Especially if you knew that the first question from people like you would be: “Well, did you have a gun to your head?”
Mark
rawvegguy@yahoo.com
March 14, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Re: post 87.
Careful Innernaut, remember that there’s no laughter in higher centers! Are we sure G was not reading a movie review of “The Great Escape”? In which case, if I remember correctly, only James Colburn and Charles Bronson escaped. Steve McQueen, as well as all of us, is still bouncing that ball off the wall of his solitary cell. Now – Who wants a drink?
March 14, 2007 at 9:34 pm
Dear still crazy (66)
Gay sex is not the issue. And it’s not even sex per se that’s troubling. Why would anybody object to the teacher having a sex life? But it is almost universally accepted that counselors and others in the helping professions should not engage in sex with the people they are trying to help. If they do, they will probably end up harming the client. In the guru/disciple relationship the problem is magnified to the nth degree. The student devalues his own feelings, thinking that the teacher knows what is best for him. The fact that the student is married and/or heterosexual may be of no importance to the teacher, but think of the consequences for the student! If the teacher wants to help the student, he should spend time TEACHING him something positive rather than using him as a sex toy.
The usual justification teachers give when they are discovered having sex with their students is to say it is “consensual.” But if the teacher is considered by his students to be a Living God, it is easy to understand why it is so hard for so many students to say no, especially when the teacher tells them that this will “help their evolution.” They feel that their eternal souls are on the line. They are dealing with a master manipulator and it takes a very strong will to resist. [In RB’s case this manipulation is just another version of what he does with the rest of the school, when he tells them that if they leave they will lose their chance at awakening “in this life or any other life.” What nonsense. Those of us who never believed it should not have remained silent when those ugly words were said again and again.]
Is it our business, you ask? Of course it is! People are investing huge amounts of time, effort and money in this school. They deserve to know the truth.
Most of the FOF leaders who depart are evidently too embarrassed to go public with the facts. (Stella Wirk was one notable exception. Where are the others? Miles? Joel? Your voices are needed.)
What should be done? One could just leave, as I and so many others have done. But those still in the school may decide that reform is the way to go. Rabbi Burns, in post 180 on the second board, outlined a direction that ought to be considered. Here’s another idea: thank RB for his service, give him a pension and send him on his way
Mark H
rawvegguy@yahoo.com
March 14, 2007 at 9:36 pm
Interesting stuff. Check it out:
http://www.usatoday.com/news/health/2007-03-13-zimbardo-evil_N.htm
Excerpts:
Zimbardo argues:
•Nearly everyone would treat others viciously or look the other way at abuse under certain conditions…
•So-called inner character seldom survives if familiar social guideposts, such as family and normal routines, fall away.
•Few people will challenge a widely accepted injustice.
Just as Lucifer turned from God’s favorite angel into a devil, good people can turn evil if prompted by social influences…
People often do inhumane things because they’re told it’s for a higher good, not because they’re evil, he says.
March 14, 2007 at 9:39 pm
Kid: “The Great Escape” was made in 1963, 14 years after G’s death — so he couldn’t be reading about that, now could he?
I’ll just take my ball and go back to my cell for now…
March 14, 2007 at 10:16 pm
Great posts, if there was an interval, it is clearly over and we go on with the conversation.
I learn from it. Do you ? What? I am interested.
My very last Lapsus Linguae I can only offer:
ConVERSation/ConSERVation
This would make Freud and Jung silent, perhaps rejoying the discovery a patient just made!
But, spirituality is not therapy is it ?
I like the turn “modern self realised people” take: You already are! The only requirement is stop pretending to be who you are not!
Apperantly, the energies circulating on this planet allow/demand this.
Here comes the idea that Eve, herself, could only laugh at the serpent offering the fruit of knowlegde… If she was self realised, if she knew “who she is”, nothing could be possibly missing therefore added !
Centuries ago, for the few;
now, for everyone, righ here, right now.
Freeing?
Deepening guilt (what about my quest, my actual teacher, my friends and family)?
Spirituality is not therapy, is it ?
Conversation (or conservation), it is great!
Thank you all…
March 14, 2007 at 10:25 pm
Comrade #81: said, “He has glad he has found them”. He has a rapport and feels connection to them”. He can relate to the ideas”.
And it is immediate. It’s a mysterious knowing.
rodney Collin said that it makes no difference when one dies. Long or short life something inside always knew.
March 14, 2007 at 10:32 pm
Comrade (81) – your story of how you met, and why you joined and stayed with the FOF is well done and mirrors my own experiences. It helps to explain to those who have never been in it, why we were.
Sheik (77) – not an argument, more a discussion. Ultimately I know nothing, just playing with ideas.
Please (83) – you have touched on something I was hoping to ask about – people’s understanding of negative emotions/suffering. Depression is an extreme form, and the pain must be pretty intense to consider committing suicide. Not sure I want to comment on that right now.
For the 10 – 12 years I was in the FOF, there was always an exercise not to express negativity; the idea was that it was the most extreme form of sleep and indicated total identification. We were encouraged to ‘separate from negative emotions’ and ‘transform’ them. I don’t know about anyone else, and would be very interested to hear their experiences, but I had and still have many negative emotions. Trying not to express them and to separate rarely had any ‘effect’; they would just come out some other way. I seem to remember that many students had strange tics or twitches, and it became very popular to give each other shoulder massages maybe due to excessive tension. I for one became very adept at not expressing negativity while around other students in the same way you don’t tell your boss to F*** off when he has annoyed you; it is called feminine dominance in the FOF I believe. Anyhow, since leaving I have been looking at negativity/suffering and currently categorize them as follows:
1) ‘Bursting my balloon negativity’ – negative emotions that arise because an event contradicts your picture of yourself or of how things should be. Mostly pretty easy to dissipate once you have seen what the source is and if you are open to seeing what you are/are not.
2) ‘More rock, less talk negativity’ – genuine physical, emotional or psychological pain arising from some kind of trauma. A result of being identified no doubt, but all part of being human; having physical bodies that feel pain, emotional suffering such as bereavement etc. Less easy to dissipate; in my experience accepting that one has to go through it helps.
I suppose work terms would be ‘imaginary and real suffering’? Then there was ‘intentional suffering’? I never got that one, what was that about? Yes, I know in theory; if you put a stone in your shoe it makes you suffer and keeps you more awake as a result. I tried it and it just hurt a lot and made me negative! Due to my failure at separating perhaps.
Regarding the negative reactions to the ‘revalations’ about RB; perhaps they fall into category 1; maybe we thought RB was ‘enlightened’ ‘perfect’ and ‘beyond reproach’, and now that illusion has been shattered. Some may experience it as category 2, particularly if they have been close to the trauma, more like the ending of a relationship (more traumatic if one feels betrayed or taken advantage of), where human nature needs time to overcome the shock. Perhaps it is a mixture of the two. Anyhow, whether your negativity about it is mild puzzlement or fully blown “murder the b******”, surely the point is to be as aware as possible of the effect it is having on you, understand why it is having that effect, and allow it to pass? Unless I have missed the point and it is really good somehow to suffer.
And as for ‘separating’, are we, can we be, would we want to be separate from what we experience? Aren’t we part of creation, and as such we are what we experience. As our awareness expands, surely we become less separate and more part of everything, and everything is part of us. As we become more aware of the nature and root causes of negativity and suffering, we understand, encompass and embrace them and often find they no longer exist?
I don’t know, just exploring….
“Are there any questions?”
“Could we have angles of thought on negativity and suffering?”
Thanks,
(Idiots)One and All.
March 14, 2007 at 10:58 pm
The devil is sitting in his favorite chair in the corner of the room. He’s smoking the pipe as usual, look like an english gentleman,if it wasn’t for the high heels. “Why are you wearing high heels?” I asked, as usual, he smells pretty bad,sulfur, I think.
He looks at me like I’m an idiot (he’s usually right),”Don’t you know that wearing high heels has been proven to develop intelligence?” He pauses, pretty satisfied by the look on my face.
“I was thinking of our traveling with R. in 94′”
he keeps going like I’m not in the room anymore,
“It was like swimming with sharks….”
I know it’s not finished, he just like to make me wait. I stand still just not to give him satisfaction.
“…obviously R. had something that I didn’t have, and I wanted really badly. He was always present.
I know some people don’t believe this, and it doesn’t matter, it was a fact for me back then.
But that was just a part of it. I learned that if you want to learn from R. you have to see what he does and not what he says.
I tought it was strange, not to listen to your teacher to learn….
the sex was kind of strange, but nothing compared to what they say is going down these days.
I just had to use a lot of imagination… definetely not a good time to try to be present!” He pauses.
He’s getting to me the bastard, I’m not going to say anything, I’m not going to give him this satisfaction.
“I didn’t like one thing,” he starts again,” it was the fact that a young guy, mexican I think, very handsome and very young was traveling with us. It was R. favorite. I liked the guy, even if I tought he was a bit of a bimbo. He didn’t have the muscle to swim with the sharks. I knew he was going to be eaten alive.
Like G. said if you are not useful to the school, to yourself and to the teacher you are wasting your time.
The guy could’n deal with the whole think. And obviously R. didn’t care. He ‘s shark. If you don’t want to be eaten you have to be very smart.
the guy lasted another six months and then left.
Was that his play? it was R. responsability?
I don’t know, I was to young and I didn’t help him then. I didn’t know what to do.”
He stops, looks at me to see what I’m doing….
“Now I don’t really care anymore, I just try to stay between toughts and stay there as much as possible.
I just wanted to tell you a story. Hope I didn’t offend you…”
He’s the devil, what should I expect?
March 15, 2007 at 2:06 am
According to some of the postings on this Blog it seems clear to me that Robert would have been well advised to install more Laundromats on the Apollo/Renaissance property.
However, I digress. I have a question: Have you experienced the transisiton of Third force becoming denying force, and how did you overcome or work with this shift in triads?
You may want to write to me directly.
Cafearistidis@hotmail.com
March 15, 2007 at 2:09 am
Mark (90) wrote: “Look, the information is out there, but it is hardly surprising that people are not coming forward in great numbers to tell their stories on the Internet.”
There once was much more information “out there”. For years. But it appears there has been some recent effort to sanitize the internet of “negative” references to the Fellowship of Friends.
You may be pleased that little will now be found (beyond this forum) that is not neutral-to-positive in tone. Postings I had long regarded as presenting “hear-say”, beyond my “personal verifications”, or just plain “whacko” have disappeared. And this is troubling.
It is well-documented that the Fellowship of Friends has resorted to threats and legal actions in an attempt to silence disparaging stories from newspapers, television and former members.
That this is may now manifest on the internet is unfortunate. A by-product of censorship is that the truth is buried with the lies.
Conscience, understanding, discrimination, intelligence, critical thinking (all that we rely on for this discussion) can no longer be trusted to sort things out.
And so, the ultimate “formatory apparatus” is engaged, to the detriment of the many, in the interest of the few.
The Department of Homeland Security would be proud.
March 15, 2007 at 2:12 am
#77
“It was hard enough to understand (and believe) that some people have benefited from the membership of FoF, that for them, it was almost a necessary experience.”
Dear Sheik,
I am posting some excerpts from a letter written by Miles Barth with reflections on this phenomenon. He was one of the first students in the FOF and was alleged by Robert to be a “Man #5. If he is following this blog I hope he will not mind as some of what he had to say could be useful to someone.
“Though I view RB now as a truly evil person, and his group as a pathetic caricature of a “school”, my real interest has focused on the characteristics in both my personality and in human nature in general that were responsible for my remaining in FOF as long as I did.”
“Though I learned much while in FOF, and much more by leaving it, it has been very hard to acknowledge that I was a fool to remain with it for as long as I did, and that I had to remain because I was a fool. RB did not fool me; he fooled himself, and I fooled myself. He exploited our weaknesses because we were there with them, and he could not do otherwise because of his own twisted belief system.”
“I do not judge him now for being homosexual, since I believe that we do not have conscious choice as to our sexual orientation; I judge him evil for the callous abuse of his power over people and his distortion of the 4th Way to serve his selfish purposes. I see my responsibility now as being to understand why I was so susceptible to accepting his distortions, even with reservations. This aspect of the journey has been much more shocking and disconcerting than anything I learned while a member. Anyway, the point of the paragraph, and really of this letter as a whole, is that for me the acknowledgment of my own foolishness was the necessary first step in growing beyond it.”
“I admire your effort to communicate some of your personal truth about RB to members of FOF. I have occasionally contemplated doing something similar, but for various reasons have not. Don’t be surprised if none of them reply; it is still not a wasted effort, because it may help to plant the seeds of doubt in whatever remaining critical faculty a few of them might have. But we can only hear what we are strong enough to bear responsibility for; the rest may as well be in Sanskrit.”
March 15, 2007 at 2:16 am
The letter referred to in Post #101 was written in 1989, four years after he had left the FOF.
March 15, 2007 at 2:27 am
reminds me of this Far Side cartoon where the prisoners were escaping through that tunnel but they came out under a lake, as they were making the final push, and water started coming in, the first guy says: we are almost there, i just felt the first drop of rain!
March 15, 2007 at 2:50 am
suppose we refund the cost of your meal;
suppose we give you some free coupons;
suppose we shoot the cook;
happy now?
March 15, 2007 at 2:55 am
Just supposing again…
what if all of this can be “fixed” whatever that means? what does it take, who could do it and what would we want the outcome to be? really? wouldnt the next person in charge of the fixing make an equal mess?
March 15, 2007 at 3:36 am
I first met Miles Barth man # 5 in Houston, Texas and later in Fort Worth, Texas.
I can tell him what a fool really is. Me.
And, I learned about it on this Blog. 27 years later. Fellow FOF’ers YOU know what kind of suffering I’m talking about.
March 15, 2007 at 7:05 am
Hey BBB, and Cry Baby–you folks better do some posting out here. Get back in here. this blog needs you to balance out the vicious venom postings as of late.
March 15, 2007 at 8:37 am
Dear Howard, you said: It’s a dangerous occupation to judge a man who has escaped. He is so far on the other shore his actions are incomprehensible to us.
These are THOUGHTS that turned into strong beliefs in you, do you see this? Please take an honest look. These are just “i’s” that became real in your head, but these are truly I’s, thoughts, they have no real substance. There is no way that anyone can verify this, we can only imagine it and believe in these thoughts. But because you (obviously) believe in these thoughts – they became real for you, and they block you from seeing that in fact there is no “us” and “him”, there is only presence, only consciousness right here right now, and no “other shores” somewhere that “we” or whoever need to escape to. And on this level there is no division between “him who escaped” and “us”. There is just no division, it’s all one consciousness. “His” consciousness or “your” consciousness is one and the same consciousness… His is not higher than yours, it’s one. Your mind created a hero and an unreal destination for a useless long travel that is not leading you anywhere. Plus your mind creates buffers that “his actions are incomprehensible to us”. Why do you believe this thoughts? You are not the mind, not the “i’s”, you are the presence, the beingness, consciousness behind your eyes. You are here right now. Are you here now? Which escape you are talking about? Which shore? Where do you need to go from the now? What are you missing now? What’s wrong with what IS right now? Do you see how thoughts are playing tricks on you – “No, this is not good enough, I need to get to the other shore, it’s a distant mystical shore, and His actions are not even comprehensible…” Please, these are just thoughts.
Dear friend, all ingredients you ever need to be present – are here now, you have it all within you already. You are present and aware now, and there is absolutely no other place or time to be in, but only here and now. It’s precisely the beliefs in false ideas and spinning of the mind that are blocking the truth from being seen. Your overactive mind is the veil, your ideas are the veil. Do not believe you thoughts. Just see what IS in your direct experience.
If we just stop listening to a mental noise for a minute, put all our ideas aside, and just look right here right now – what can we REALLY observe? No, not “what can we imagine or think out” –but actually witness, see, acknowledge in the present moment. Look. You will probably see objects and experience some passing feelings and thoughts. You’ll see you hands, arms, legs – parts of your body. But do you observe a solid person called “Howard” in your environment? Has there EVER been a separate “me” person in our environment? No! There is no such being to be found in the now. But that is who you think you are, right? You think you are this guy, Howard, right? So how come it’s not even there when you look for him? What are you then? May be it was just a thought, an imagined entity with attached story made of memory that ACTUALLY NEVER EXISTED in the present??? May be the “me” actually never lived, except in the mind? Please take a look. You will see. It may be uncomfortable and even scary at first, but you will see. And once you see, there is no going back. Because what SEES this –is conscious awareness that is simply watching, that aliveness that we all are, and always have been. This is real, this is unchanging, this is you. It was watching, observing, cognizing since the very beginning. The rest is observed, watched – it is changing, playing games, coming and going – but consciousness is always there, observing.
See who you are and be free. There is no other shore.
March 15, 2007 at 9:06 am
This is uncomprehensible to me. Could anyone please explain how this knowledge can be used practicaly for being present here and now?
“It shows a mammoth with a falling man, and to the left, a rhinoceros with excrement in six small dots passing from him.
This verse explains the image of the rhinoceros, keyed as the lower self, who is excreting the sequence. The lower self is in control of the sequence at this point and the steward is falling back, failing to act. It is a failed sequence mouthed too weakly, without heart, and it cannot engage presence with it.”
March 15, 2007 at 11:44 am
Re: Post #93, anon4,
March 14th, 2007 at 9:36 pm
One very important quote that was overlooked in excerptation is this last one:
Whistle-blowers are important, but we know very little about people such as Army Reservist Joseph Darby,
who turned in the Abu Ghra’ib guards,
Zimbardo says. ‘We know enough about
what causes people to abuse,’ he says.
‘We’re overdue in learning about the heroes in our midst.’
This just in:
‘Message to the Community
Wed, Mar 14, 2007 09:57 PM
Dear Friends,
We are aware that material is currently being circulated that presents a negative
view of Robert and the Fellowship.
We realize that receiving – and reading – such material can be troubling and confusing. So we would like to encourage any student who feels the need for conversation to contact us. We will do our best to listen with open hearts and minds.
With love,
C. L. (692-xxxx), H. F. (692-xxxx), M. G.(692-xxxx), E. B. (692-xxxx) and G. H. (692-xxxx)
The Sufi is he that keeps a pure heart towards God.
Ibn Al-Harith Al-Hafi’
What could possibly have caused the change in tone of the FOF language about what is going on lately, from what we saw here earlier?
Hubris about-face?
Why are not the persons who perform abusive actions the ones that have to answer to community, presuming listed ones are less responsible for it, as many do know?
Sacrifice the lambs why don’t you. (O, RB is really the poor lamb, said
sarcastically.)
Reason: This blog has become one major
‘Photograph’ (read: revelation of the truth) and, therefore, one major headache, for FOF. (Any student in FOF ought to know what the usual initial responce is to a photograph.)
Please consider this:
The seven stages of death and dying:
(Not necessarily in this order – not necessarily from Egyptian Book of the Dead.)
* Shock or Disbelief
* Denial
On being told that one is dying, there is an initial reaction of shock. The patient may appear dazed at first and may then refuse to believe the diagnosis or deny that anything is wrong. Some patients never pass beyond this stage and may go from doctor to doctor until they find one who supports their position.
* Anger
Patients become frustrated, irritable and angry that they are sick. A common response is, ‘Why me?’ They may become angry at God, their fate, a friend, or a family member. The anger may be displaced onto the hospital staff or the doctors who are blamed for the illness.
* Guilt
We all should know what that’s about.
* Bargaining
The patient may attempt to negotiate with physicians, friends or even God, that in return for a cure, the person will fulfill one or many promises, such as giving to charity or reaffirm an earlier faith in God.
* Depression
The patient shows clinical signs of depression – withdrawal, psychomotor retardation, sleep disturbances, hopelessness and possibly suicidal ideation. The depression may be a reaction to the effects of the illness on his or her life or it may be in anticipation of the approaching death.
* Acceptance and Hope
The patient realizes that death is inevitable and accepts the universality of the experience. Under ideal circumstances, the patient is courageous and is able to talk about his or her death as he or she faces the unknown. People with strong religious beliefs and those who are convinced of a life after death can find comfort in these beliefs (Zisook & Downs, 1989).
Eventually it is accepted that the circumstance(s) is/are good idea, we are glad we came up with them in first place, we did it on purpose so that we’d have something to transform, and/or we are better off because of it, etc.
Lov’n it, one moment at a time,
Wondering Who’s Watching
March 15, 2007 at 12:11 pm
One and All (97): I ultimately know less than nothing, and even that is subjective. But for me, and numerous people I have met, there was a necessary period of suffering that allowed them to grow as human beings. It seems that sometimes it takes that grime, dirt, and pain, for people to prove themselves (to themselves rather than others). I know that it is an excuse to label evil as a necessity so that good can prevail and prove itself against it, but often-times that’s how it works.
If it’s any solace, the depression and negativity goes away. It did for me. It can still be a roller-coaster of emotions from time to time, but the suffering is gone, and the gains were worth it. Repressing the suffering is only going to prolong it, being honest and open about it is the first step to recovery (a step that you have made).
Some spiritual teachers believe that suffering is an integral part of a spiritual journey. It may be true, but there is danger in believing it in order to explain other people’s unacceptable behaviour, ie. RB’s sexual predation.
The way I understand it, suffering can be used to enter higher states. Fasting, sleep deprivation, extreme tiredness, etc. are all interesting mind-fucks. This form of suffering as a means to entering higher states has nothing to do with long-term emotional/psychological suffering.
Blind (105): I don’t think that the situation can be fixed, the only person keeping the FoF together is Robert Burton. As Rita rightfully pointed out, the school will wither and break up into factions with his death. Every single cult that I know of didn’t survive their leader’s death, the only odd one out is scientology.
Brainwashed Sheep (107): Why don’t you write something yourself? You will find that we all fight our battles alone. If you still view this discussion as a war between ex and current members than you have missed the point (but you wouldn’t be the only one). Good luck.
Wondering Who’s Watching (110): Thank you for posting the seven stages of death and dying, I believe that the relevance of those seven points is obvious.
March 15, 2007 at 12:26 pm
Angry Dwarf (#88) Here is a tip for you. Whenever a “work word” comes up realize you have stopped thinking. Those terms i mentioned in my spoof of Mr. Orwell’s rules, like all psychological descriptions, are cotton candy in the mind. If they are made solid “False Personality” (more cotton candy) hasn’t taken them ignorance has. I am not saying they are meaningless just that we can’t make them mean something.
“Flag” is a symbol for a symbol of a concept. Should we burn it or not?
March 15, 2007 at 2:39 pm
My dear friend in Isis said to me that she didn’t understand what’s Adyashanti’s practice is. I didn’t know what to say then, because indeed, there’s no obvious practice involved. Yesterday I found this inspirational writing of Wei Wu Wei which might be the answer to the ‘practice’ question. Here it is, everybody, and my darling girl (miss you terribly. I’ll be in the US in April at No Person’s event, would be great to see you there!):
“Let us live gladly! Quite certainly we are free to do it. Perhaps it is our only freedom, but ours it is, and it is only phenomenally a freedom. ‘Living free’ is being ‘as one is’. Can we not do it now? Indeed can we not-do-it? It is not even a ‘doing’: it is beyond doing and not-doing. It is being as-we-are.
This is the only ‘practice’.”
“A man who is seeking for realization is not only going round searching for his spectacles without realizing that they are on his nose all the time, but also were he not actually looking through them he would not be able to see what he is looking for!”
March 15, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Sheik, “a cult for intellectuals”! As for my self, I am a cow chewing his cud in the fields.
But, I think, that if this blog existed (it probably did in some form) in ancient Greece some of these postings would bring a smile to Socrates lips.
March 15, 2007 at 4:56 pm
Vena, you are a treasure. Your post (#101) of Miles’ letter is fascinating, and it immediately transported me back to that time when RB had proclaimed Miles “conscious.” Though I can’t claim to know Miles personally, I did meet him on occasion, mostly at large regional meetings where he presided as “traveling teacher.”
My first memory of him was from a dinner with many students in attendance — far too many to be seated at tables in the teaching house. So a buffet was served. I distinctly remember Miles sitting in a straight-back chair with his plate balanced precariously on his knees, “dining in the European style,” with a sizable group of young men ranged about him on the floor, hoping to receive that one crucial pearl of wisdom that would enable them to join him on “the other shore.” There was one young man in particular, sitting quite close to him, who seemed almost desperate to have his body type and center of gravity confirmed by Miles, who had apparently just met him. No one else could get a word in edgewise for some time.
At one point during the large meeting at this event, a big, friendly dog came bounding into the middle of the circle of chairs. An audible gasp went up from the students. How coarse! How unrefined! How … doggy! Miles made some astute observation about the instinctive nature of life on earth as the unwelcome creature was led away. Whew! A crisis averted.
When Miles left the school, it caused a crisis of a very real sort, however. A number of students left to join the group Miles founded, which was short-lived to my knowledge. Many more students who remained in the FOF struggled with the implications of his departure, and with their own decision to stay. I know one student who had all but decided to leave and follow Miles, until he saw a license plate with a message that indicated somehow that he should stay in the FOF. Omens …
Anyhow, Vena, thanks again for the memories.
March 15, 2007 at 5:40 pm
On the latest message to the community from the prominent members:
It reminded me of a story when I just joined the school and went to the meeting with friends at which letters from Troy and some other people were read. Some students left the school on the spot. Myself and a friend decided to ask our centre director whom we greatly respected and trusted, whether it was true what was written about Robert. He said that it was not true and we left, confused but still trusting his words.
When you go to visit those important students, maybe you’ll be told to use scale and relativity. To remember your verifications. That Robert is ‘so far beyond our understanding’, that we can’t comprehend his actions. That what is said about him is not true. That it doesn’t matter anyway because it’s you and your work that matters.
Ask YOURSELF whether you think it’s true or not and whether it matters or not. Don’t be a ‘second hand being’.
March 15, 2007 at 6:01 pm
I was in the school for 3 years. It has now been a little over a year since I left. I was introduced to the school with not much previous knowledge about it but was intrigued by possibility of experiencing higher states. What makes it difficult to actually SEE what’s going on is that the uncovering is gradual. In the beginning you only experience the states, everone is super friendly and welcoming.You are immediately made to feel part of something. The higher states experienced in the beginning keep you going back. Everything seems amazing. As a new student you are not really privvy to the politics or the underworld of the organisation. So it is not until you are deep deep deep into FOF life, with altered ideals and aims and views of the world which all seem so real that the dark bits start to peep through. What really kept me there for so long were the friends I made. Everyone was so available to spend time with and to experience higher states, the weekly meetings were also there to reinforce the ways of the school. I then had a back injury which made it impossible for me to attend meetings. For a whole month, in fact, i saw no one from the fellowship. It was after this time away that I really opened my eyes. I went to a meeting and just couldn’t connect to what was going on. From then on every meeting was a chore. I would leave as soon as it ended and was even checking my watch to see how much longer I had to wait.
It was during this time that it dawned on me that I had been brainwashed. That all the people I hung out with were helping to uphold this brainwashing. This was during the time that the school was moving away from fourth way ideas. All this new stuff kept coming in and we had to spend forever just reading new material. I didn’t really have to do much to leave. I was no longer getting anything for my money. The thought of not seeing certain people again was the only thing that made me stop and think. Since leaving the school things have just been wanderful. It took me 6 months to look at any type of teaching but when i started to read things again I realised that what the school took from me was the joy of discovery. There was too much force feeding by the end of my 3 years there. It has now been over a year. I learnt alot while I was in the school and was able to face up to things in my life that needed changing but the money making schemes just got too much.
I do however miss like minded people to share ideas with. I see some friends who have also left the school but would be happy to meet more. If you wish to contact me you can on: anatashais@hotmail.com
with love
natasha
March 15, 2007 at 6:22 pm
One cannot “practice” their true nature. Our true nature (consciousness) already IS, ever present, it just needs to be recognized. It doesn’t need to be created or practiced – it’s there already. Recognition doesn’t take long time at all -but it takes a sincere immediate observing. We haven’t ever looked in this way because we always try to “think it all out”, there is always the “me” in the picture which has some kind of intellectual opinion, explanation, objection or buffer before any looking is ever possible. That’s why this simple truth of who we are has been overlooked for so long. See, even now as you read this, there is probably a thought in you head saying something about it. These thoughts are labeled “me” and run our life because we believe them to be our identity. But it is just a thought. We are not thoughts!
Once you look at what IS really here and now without mental concepts – you’ll have to acknowledge that there is just presence, conscious “looking out”, and all that is percieved by it, including passing thoughts. Nothing else! This is the simple reality. This is the true situation in every moment of your life. Consciousness perceiving whatever is. You cannot miss it, it’s right in your face.
All that can be done by any teacher – is just to point to this which is within you, and let you do the looking and recognizing. Any practice or following just reinforces the idea of “me the student”, which is seen upon sincere immediate observation to be just that – an idea, thought, mental image that we mistakingly belive ourselves to be. We are not that mental image of “me”!
Amazingly, just a brief seing of it somehow breaks or completely destroys the concept of “me”, and consciousness that we truly are is just there, obvious and unobstructed by mind concepts.
March 15, 2007 at 6:42 pm
This morning’s reassuring message from our loving and compassionate directors:
Dear Friends,
We are aware that material is currently being circulated that presents a negative view of Robert and the Fellowship. We realize that receiving — and reading — such material can be troubling and confusing. So we would like to encourage any student who feels the need for conversation to contact us. We will do our best to listen with open hearts and minds.
With love,…….
Please replace:
“presents” with … “reveals”
” negative” with… “accurate”
“realize” with…” fear”
“and reading” with…” you MUST not read it ”
“troubling and confusing” with …”informative and enlightening ”
“conversation” with… “interrogation”
“listen” with… “report”
“open” with …” conditioned ”
…..done ? OK, that’s better ………
March 15, 2007 at 7:29 pm
Dear Brainwashed Sheep,
My name is shorter, but I’m still here, reading the blog every day. Please don’t tempt me & my camel back down from our lonely perch here, atop a sand dune. The sun is about to rise, and I shall have a breathtaking view of the Sphinx. As for the conversation, it seems to be doing fine. And btw, it was never my purpose to ‘defend’ the FOF or take sides in the dispute over Robert Burton’s culpability, his competence as a leader, his authenticity as a teacher, etc., nor to ‘defend’ the 4th Way in general (or any other teaching).
Ah. Now behold the first rays of the morning sun! I am stunned to silence.
Oh wait, what’s this? Another infernal group of tourists, here to destroy my peace. I must be going mad – are these not the same people I saw last time? They keep coming, the same ones, over and over!
Perhaps I will ride back down and join you again at Animam Recro after all. See you all soon.
Bedouin/BBB
March 15, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Sheik (111).
Thanks for your response. You may have got the wrong impression of me (one of the limitations of this way of communicating). I am in no way depressed or suffering, I left the FOF over 15 years ago, and did not suffer much at the time, before or since. I have had some trauma in life, and may have come close to depression once. It is true that at this point I became stronger through being present; I had to be; putting one foot
in front of the other was major effort carried out only because of my responsibilities.
But that was a long time ago. And not everyone becomes stronger through suffering, I have seen many who are dragged into the mire of ‘righteous indignation’ and permanent misery because of their inability to overcome negativity/suffering. No, my interest in this is to help others explore ways in which they may overcome any negative responses that the ‘revelations’ or fear of leaving the FOF may have evoked, and to assist me in my understanding of negativity which I still experience on an almost daily basis. I wanted to hear what others had to say about negativity/suffering because I still get irritated at times in traffic jams, overcome by absolute rage for short periods when someone ruins my plans, feel sorrow about certain things, and uncomfortable or fearful in some situations. Because I prefer not to be in these states, I am exploring ways to see if this is possible; finding people interested in this kind of stuff is rare unless you do belong to a group. I have continued using the knowledge and verifications I gained before, during and after FOF, but the area of negativity is one I am still unsure about. Also talking about stuff like this on the blog is more fun than doing other things that I need to be getting on with!
Maybe the 4th way ideas about negative emotions are completely wrong; scrap them and start from the beginning. A baby cries because it is hungry, it really hurts your ears so you want to stop it. You cut your finger, it really hurts so you attend to it. Your partner leaves you, you feel really sad and empty so you do stuff to make yourself feel better. Some idiot blocks the road, you get really mad and turn round to go another way. Surely all negative emotions are messages that tell us something is ‘wrong’ and needs to be addressed, they are a signal that action needs to be taken. Merely ‘separating’ does not help, surely we need to really examine what is beneath the negative emotion, what it is trying to tell us and act accordingly? Most of the time with the ‘bursting my balloon’ type of negativity the action is to re-frame our view of ourselves or the situation – reveal our imaginary picture of ourselves. With more ‘real’ forms of suffering perhaps other actions are required. Like getting out of an abusive relationship, allowing grief to occur (see Wondering who’s watching’s post – 110), facing conflict and finding resolution.
What do those familiar with FOF ideas about negativity think, and what works for you?
I feel a bit guilty now, must go and do those jobs waiting to be done!
(Idiots)One and All.
March 15, 2007 at 10:08 pm
Re: post 110
Dear CL,HF,MG,EB,GH
Please also do your best to speak with an open heart and mind. No lying.The “Fellowship” project may be substantially larger than it appears like in certain rear veiw mirrors.
Sausage tastes yummy but is a horror to watch being made.
March 16, 2007 at 2:18 am
In response to One And All’s question about negativity and the 4th Way (121):
When we get involved with the 4th Way we’re told that negativity is useless and destructive, that we can only see it by not expressing it, and that at a more advanced stage we might be able to transform negative emotions into higher states. This sounds kind of reasonable so we all took it on board and worked with it as best we could. It was very unusual to question all this; we just assumed it was true.
In retrospect it seems to me that these ideas are just another bunch of useless concepts.
We were told to distinguish between non expression (good) and suppression (bad), but actually suppression was what happened most of the time. It was very important to appear positive whatever was going on internally.
Discussions about transformation didn’t seem to get very far as transformation was such a rare occurrence as to verge on the non-existent.
Both positive and negative emotions occur naturally in present awareness. There’s no problem with negative emotions unless you think there is. They usually pass very quickly if you simply let them go. Non-expression is a way of hanging onto them.
The above ramblings are all dealing with the spiritual aspect of the subject. As One And All points out negative emotions clearly have practical uses in everyday life.
March 16, 2007 at 2:45 am
As a former member of the FOF for over twenty years, it is apparent that like the tide, this blog, which the sheik is kindly hosting, has its highs and lows.
When present or former students post self- righteous emails laced with the desire for revenge or to convert, while overlooking, for example, that they started sleeping with their former husband while he was still married,(by the way, hello Rita, nice to see that you turned out so well,) then it does not require much intelligence to perceive when a contributor’s posting originates from the lower pit of one’s emotional center, bringing with it doom and gloom.
When the sheik permits a self-proclaimed teacher/entrepreneur like Kiran to post his accusations not only about Burton but about his business partners (sorry Kiran, I was one of those sane women who said “no” towards all of your advances, yet your ego could not take it and you kept coming after me,) then after a short while one realizes that this blog is in free fall…meaning that it is going down.
It may go on for years, but it is doubtful that it will get any higher or lower than its present level.
Expressing anger, accompanied by a need for revenge, or blindly defending “the states” and the benefits current members are receiving from remaining, has reduced this blog to mere entertainment, which very few are taking seriously.
I tune in every few days to see if there is a sincere desire from anyone for a dialogue, but alas, like this email, most of us are into monologues. (Sheik, I don’t hold you responsible, as you don’t have enough fingers for the holes in the dyke.)
There are numerous issues in the FOF that require attention. This blog has touched on many of them. I left because of some of the very things that were mentioned in the past.
However, the possibility of developing a dialogue between those that are in and those of us who are out is not presently feasible due to the tone and language of the postings; the majority of which evoke either a defensive or an attacking response.
Readership and relevance will dwindle as we become bored with postings that are trying to save us from joining/leaving the FOF.
What could have been a potent tool for open communication has turned impotent.
Only the “blatantly biased and the blind” on either side of the issues could take these postings seriously.
Wishing you healthy hearts and minds.
Former Ms. America
March 16, 2007 at 3:31 am
Dear One and all, I can share the experience and present understanding about negativity. It seems that there is spontaneous natural negativity that happens as a response to a negative stimula – like physical pain, discomfort, offence, separation or whatever. It is a natural negative appropriate response. We used to call it negative parts of centers. You can observe this basic negative response in many nature’s creatures, who have no idea about working on themselves and controlling the expression of negativity. One of my cats bites another cat, and the second cat hisses and is clearly angry, his ears down, his tail moving from side to side. A bird fights another bird that entered it’s territory, it’s fluffed and agitated. You can see a dog being sad when the owner leaves – dog cries. There are all kind of negative interactions bethween animals. But what’s interesting – they are not lasting for long time, they come and quickly go. New things come and replace them quickly. May be it is because animal doesn’t have an imaginary picture of themselves that can hold on to it, make it into something very personal and important, and therefore prolong the unnecessary suffering. My cats are playing friendly again in a minute, and the birds don’t seem to continue feeling victimized and complaining for months, it happily chirps as the intruder went away. The unpleasant issue is quickly resolved – they move on and completely forget about it.
Something in us however tends to grab on to whatever negative stimula comes our way. Any unpleasant event is seen as something personal, harming, very important to us and big deal. It was done to “us”, it hurts “us”, it’s “we” who are so insulted.
Well, may be it’s worth looking – what in us grabs on to this, why negative stuff cannot just pass by, like it does for animals? What holds on to it?
So it comes down to the idea of “me”. We all have this idea, this notion of “me”. In fact, it feels like it’s all about “me”, isn’t it. Our mind have created a “me” label and a story based on memory what this “me” is all about, how he should be treated, what he expects of the world. Whenever there is a clash between expectations of the “me” and reality – there is huge amount of suffering, pain, denial, and it lingers and lingers – the mind keeps bringing it up again and again, causing more pain. Animals don’t seem to have a mental image of themselves, they just exist. Things move through them whithout obstruction.
So, how to work with suffering? You don’t work with it, instead try to see what causes it and what is holding on to it. Where is this “me” that has so much opinion about how things should be? Is he real, or is he a mental image, a thought? May be there is no “me”? May be the “me” is an illusion? Take an honest look right now. Can you find this “me”, except in the mind as a thought?
Suffering is always about the “me”, it’s all these self-centered thoughts that spin and spin in the mind. They are all rooted in the “me” concept.
When it is seen that the “me” is just a thought, most suffering and most of negativity eventually go away, because it was anchored to the concept of “me”. Internal pain has no place to attach itself to, so it passes through very quickly. You’ll still experience pain if something hurts, and will feel sad if your partner leaves, but it passes through, it doesn’t linger, just like for birds or cats – life goes on and new moment brings new joys.
We all know that simply suppressing negativity and pretending that you are not suffering doesn’t work. Even if you are calm on the surface and managed to fool your friends – you are still hurting inside. And then it is later expressed anyway, at home, to your wife and kids, to your poor dog, to inanimate objects that get broken out of anger… And then more quilt is felt, and more disappointment with oneself… Why play this silly game?
Don’t work on negativity – instead see what holds it, keeps it around. Find the hook, and discover that the hook is not even real. Then it all takes care of itself, beautifully.
malaec@yahoo.com
March 16, 2007 at 6:19 am
The Fellowship is not now nor was ever a fourth way school. It does not now and never did have any connection to Ouspensky or Gurdjieff. Ouspensky and Gurdjieff are the bait in the Fellowship “Bait and Switch” spiritual program. The Fellowship is Robert Burtonism plain and simple. Always has been. The ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky have been distorted beyond reasonable recognition. Post 121. Forget about Fellowship ideas about the system and go directly to the source (at least the written sources).
RB was in a pseudo school conducted by Alex Horn who was never in a school himself. His wife was a student of John Bennett, I don’t know for how long. Alex Horn was not ever in any kind of Gurdjieff work. We were led to believe that Horn had come through the Gurdjieff Work, ie, some connection to the Foundation. He was, I was told, acquainted with Lord Pentland but never participated in group work. This info was given to me by a woman in the Gurdjieff work who had been a movements teacher for 20 years and a group leader for many years after that. She had known Horn through a friend who had dated him briefly in the 50’s or 60’s. She was also close to Lord Pentland so I trust her opinion on this.
RB was in a pseudo school where the teacher, Alex Horn, made things up as he went along. Using In Search of the Miraculous as his guideline. According to Dave Archer, Horn never read anything by Gurdjieff. RB was in this school for sometime over a year and was kicked out for overt homosexual predatory behavior. This according to Pat Patterson. Alex Horn had an anti-homosexual rule in his school. Again see Dave Archer’s website.
So RB in under 18 months went from man 1,2 or 3 all the way to man 5. He had a spontaneous awakening delivered by his guardian Angel Leonardo DaVinci. Give me a break. So we have a guy who never really studied with anyone who understood the ideas of Ouspensky and Gurdjieff, started his own school using ideas that he did not really understand and any time he came across a question he couldn’t deal with either made something up or deferred to “higher forces”. A con is a con is a con. A cult is a cult is a cult. And each and every one of us fell for it in some way or other.
If we hadn’t fallen for this con we would have fallen for some other con. Hopefully what we all get out of our experience, at least those who were not irreparably damaged, is some new level of critical discernment, the ability to be more discriminating in regards to our spiritual pursuits.
Thanks Vena for your thoughts from Miles. I don’t envy the karmic load he has to carry.
keith.46@hotmail.com
March 16, 2007 at 8:41 am
There is no regret, we learned exactly what we have to learn. Everyday was exactly the way it was supposed to be, and so were and are the people.
I’m very grateful to R.
I wouldn’t be who I’m now without him.
Nobody stopped me from joining and nobody will stop me from leaving.
.
Incredible beauty and intense suffering was what I,and i guess most of the people here, were given. I signed up for it. I learned what I was supposed to,now, it’s time to go, with no regrets, grateful for everything.
The dark side of R. is something the we all knew about, and if you didn’t know it’s because you didn’t want to know.
I traveled with him, ate with him, loved him and hated him.
He is what it is. With all his contraddictions and weaknesses, he is completely himself.
Time for me and others, to go and do, and be, the same.
But for a moment, remember what was given to you, not only what it wasn’t.
To all of you…
I’m very grateful for your friendship.
March 16, 2007 at 8:48 am
Re: post 110
The newest message provokes some questions. For those of us who have been around some years, this is a familiar pattern: a problem occurs, some “experts” are assigned as point people, and people are urged to confer with them if they are having I’s.
Why do we have this model? What do we think these experts know? Why are they more authoritative than others – or more authoritative than our own consciences?
Why are these issues not discussed as a community? Why must we go one-on-one to discuss issues that affect the body of the school? It is certainly safer to deal with people one-on-one – in groups, people are more likely to challenge answers, see faulty thinking, et cetera. (I am not advocating a community approach – just exploring the possibility.)
What do we hope for? No harm in talking with others, but it’s good to ask: Are we trying to subcontract the difficult task of thinking and feeling to others? Why these particular people?
In the past, the people assigned to these tasks often knew less than the people posing the questions, were often in denial, and sometimes had severe emotional problems of their own. (See post 116 above).
The material that is coming to light is certainly “troubling and confusing” – but it isn’t new. Why have we buffered it till now? Gurdjieff spoke of “the evil god Self-Calming.” Are we trying to make the discomfort go away? Are we looking for an aspirin when surgery is needed?
So often we get the familiar circular answers, many of which have been discussed above (“The facts lie,” “The worse for you if you are right,” “Who is asking?”, “What does this have to do with the Sequence/your personal work/self-remembering?” and their variants.)
Because these “confusing,” “troubling” issues are not new — why, at this time, are we suddenly getting people assigned to deal with it?
How does this relate to the earlier emails sent out to the community, threatening legal action? Does it supercede them? Or is this a “good cop, bad cop” approach?
In other words, after Daddy threatened to whip you for an offense, Mommy would come in and offer you milk and cookies if you would tell her all. But they were both working for the same outfit. What is the aim?
I hope to make the process more “conscious” by looking at what we’re doing, with what aims. So much of this stuff has been reactive in the past.
Finally, I wish to pose a question of my own: In the old days, we used to quote Petrarch, “Truth above Friendship.” But I know so many people who say they are staying for their friendships. What happened?
March 16, 2007 at 9:02 am
p.s. More particularly, WHICH of the many troubling, confusing issues that have been raised are they offering to address? Much has been said here of the new form of the school, much has been said about Robert’s personal activities, much has been said about the Advaita Revolution of recent months. Are the people listed proffering expertise on all these topics?
Doesn’t the one-on-one nature imply, by the very model, that these are personal, first-line problems that require private counseling and not organizational problems?
March 16, 2007 at 10:46 am
Two thoughts on negative emotions.
1) The non-expression of negative emotions is the corner stone of the sheepification of the fof.
2) Though many stem from instinctive discomfort or from a false idea of ourselves both these types can be worked out but the vast majority arise because the society we live in is INSANE!
(that second one is b.s. but i really wanted to say it)
March 16, 2007 at 11:18 am
TO A SHEEP, ALL MY BLOGGERFRIENDS (AND OF COURSE TO THE SHEIK):
I find myself also still reading this blog almost daily even though I thought I would not do so after I took off! But it sure keeps making for an interesting read and so it’s hard not to take a peek now and again!
(Dare I say at this juncture THANK YOU SHEIK, for continuing to make this possible???–hey, you too said you would not write again…Also, let me say here Hello to Simon–surely you are out there reading this now!)
Sheep, Yes, I did intend to jump to the defense of the FOF and Robert, in my own way–by exposing the obvious hypocrisy of quite a few bloggernauts out here and testing their “stories” and motivations…and I have done so.
But I don’t want to keep spouting off on this forum, as it seems I have worn out my welcome by stepping on a few too many toes…as evident by some (im)posters here!
Also, contrary to the never-ending changing names and faces on this blog (almost like being in the FOF!)–I AM DETERMINED NOT TO KEEP WALLOWING IN THIS CRAP! I am getting a little tired of the the same old nonsense, when what I see here in the School is the opposite of what I am reading on the blog!
Let’s get real folks! Make up your mind where you want to go with your lives! As for me, I will stay in this “pathetic caricature” of a School! (I guess I have never seen the real thing—hey, fine by me).
Thanks Miles, but no really, Thank You Mr. Miles (we have drank many a good bottle of vino together!—quite the connoisseur Miles), thank you, and not for this parting shot of a letter (to an anonymous recipient—I like the way everyone on this blog is so specific about Robert’s actions but completely careless about any one else, to whom was this letter written and in what context, does he still feel this way? who knows what he is doing with his life?)
Miles is just another one who turned out to be someone who did not have the guts to make the FOF a better place when he was IN (tried to start his own group and fell on his face as everyone left his little group), but yes thanks for the many great memories of days in SF when he REALLY HAD SOMETHING TO SHARE AND GIVE and did it well!
(btw, does anyone realize that when RB proclaims a “man #5” that this could just be encouragement or a potential to be realized? and that this potential can just be “thrown away” or “lost” just as easily—for sure! Yet even better—you/we all have this miraculous potential inside us—YES WE/YOU DO, that is why we are here or were here—
(of course some of you are already fully awake from reading your BS on this blog! And even if you try you cannot stop (dreaming) being awake! I agree, who needs a school when you are there already!—good going No Person!)
But I am NOT here to scold people (such as Please–whose true questions ABSOLUTELY DESERVE AN ANSWER — and I am sure nobody needs to be too cynical about that process, such as our beloved darling gorgeous sprightly and pleasantly “rough around the edges” but oh so good-natured Medusa (big kiss to you, good girl!—I am not sure if we ever shared a bottle together…surely we must have), who voices the notion that no honest discussion is possible in the FOF–how sad is that–if you expect the worst you will get it!
I said this before, and I will say it again—the FOF is what you/we make of it!!! Treat it with contempt—and it becomes a very ugly place!
While there are some new stories on this page, it is just not as exciting anymore as before (unless of course this page will be evidence in a murder trial some day!—Yes Sheik leaving this murder talk on the web is just not cool! Don’t you know any better?). The discussion seems a little flat for my taste. Also Simon is sorely missed. So may I refer you all to reread all my posts on Page 2 of this Blog?
To have a more meaningful discussion, as I said before, it will have to be in a different forum—maybe something really outrageous and daring, such as a real person to person talk or meeting (without the masks or phony names!), or a visit to Isis or a prospective meeting for some–and for others they should just look deeply inside–I have no doubt this is all happening now internally–So My Hat’s Off to ALL OF US READING THIS BLOG!!!! KEEP UP THE VERY VERY GOOD WORK!
SO ONCE AGAIN, FAREWELL AND THANK YOU ALL, FELLOWBLOGGERS/SHIPPERS, AND MY FRIEND THE SHEIK!
PS. Sheik, I appreciate your honesty in an earlier post! (you did write “I ultimately know less than nothing”—I am not sure you realize that indeed that is VERY, VERY LITTLE! but I am sure you know that very little very well—so again, THANK YOU!)
PPS Inner Jewel–So Sweetly did you roam from field to field-and apparently are still (only now secretly roaming) -may you live in Eternity’s sunrise and find your way to express your inner, bejeweled, mercury nature…We too have drank many a bottle of wine together…so do not judge me too harshly, please…we all love you and wish you well! I will not stoop so low as to ask about your “sexual deviancies”…never mind the budget!
PPPS Mr. Campion—“sanitizing the internet”? what? if you can see this blog, the FOF is not very good at it! What a joke! Censorship and control? Any email sent to the FOF Community list is posted here almost BEFORE it gets out to the members! So you too keep up the good work!
PPPPS Innernaut—some good postings as of late (you are improving!) but please allow me to disagree with you on the Miles posting—yes there was a little chatter, a lot of prattling and some sputtering, (as there is now about this blog)– it lasted a few weeks, and yes a few members left (some came back later), but when the little angel dust settled, Miles impact on the School was just about zero and everyone simply continued their Work…It is hard to build a foundation when all you have is protest against something else! For me this showed us how dispensible we really are, shocking!
PPPPPS Arthur—Keep up the EXTREMELY interesting and intelligent postings—surely you have a lot to say about our Fellowship after not having been in for more than 27 years—very pertinent indeed–—what do you think? maybe time for a little refresher course when you are not too busy writing your clever postings?
PPPPPS Wild and Free–good points, my sentiments exactly, just not wild or free enough for my taste! Keep up the good work.
PPPPPPS AND AS ALWAYS A SPECIAL GREETINGS TO CAMEL-HOPPING BBB (WISHED I WAS THERE…)! BBB—I salute you—enjoy the great vistas!
March 16, 2007 at 12:04 pm
Can somebody explain to me the esoteric meaning of Jesus Christ’s message that we, human beings, shall love each other?
Why is that people who called themselves my friends not long ago can’t even speak to me anymore? You, at best, can barely say ‘hello’ to me when we accidentally meet and then run off as if I was contaminated by ‘going to the moon’ disease.
What happened to our friendship, our love? Is that what you call ‘consciousness?’ If so, I wouldn’t want that kind of it for myself.
In your sterile paradise, do you think you will be happy without me and others whom you love and yet ban yourself from expressing it? How far your imagination about life after death can go? I am alive NOW, missing you in THIS life and waiting for this madness and self-inflicted separation to end.
Do you think that Robert’s exercise is truer than Christ’s message?
No but… Yeah but…?
March 16, 2007 at 12:27 pm
Medusa (#119) cites a communique from the FOF nerve center and brain trust. Something bugged me about it the first time I read it, and I think I know now what it is.
It’s that it reads like a line from “Talking to Your Teenager About Sex,” or some such thing. It’s condescending, as though it were parents talking down to their kids.
Think about it: “We realize that receiving — and reading — such material can be troubling and confusing.” Uh-oh — did little Jmmy find some “photo”s of Dad and his friend “Bill” tucked away in a dresser drawer? Or did Mom experiment ever so briefly in bestiality in college, and now it’s come back to haunt?
If the Council is being sincere, then forgive my cynicism. But this message struck a very false note, like politicians who’ve tried everything, and are forced to go with the sincerity angle as a last resort.
March 16, 2007 at 1:46 pm
Former Ms. America (124): Good. I am not sure how much I agree with you, but I definitely see your perspective and I am glad that you took your time to present it so clearly.
First, the goal of the discussion was to inform. I don’t think that you will find many people who will be capable of a non-emotional dialogue about the FoF.
Second, in order for the discussion to turn into a meanigful dialogue, people would have to want that, judging by their actions rather than their claims, they don’t seem to (except for you).
Third, if a meaningful dialogue was to appear on this blog through a more close, scutinizing and ultimatelly controlling moderation, the discussion would allow for just about as much free expression as the FoF. I wouldn’t want to be a part of that.
Fourth, Kiran was such an interesting addition to the discussion. As someone pointed out earlier, is he really that different from a younger Robert Burton? A young spiritual teacher/guru proud of the fact that he can charge 10,000 dollars a piece, hmm, danger danger.
Cry baby (131): Welcome back, I knew that your pride wouldn’t let you stay out of the discussion, I am glad to see that you have learnt to bide your time and polish your writing before sending it.
I do not know whether you realise that your appearance will stirr the conversation once again and result in a more heated discussion, more posts, and more readers. Thanks.
March 16, 2007 at 4:22 pm
I forgot to say how much I appreciated George Orwell’s rare gem of writing and thought. I printed it out and re-read it yesterday, enjoying it like a glass of fine wine. With a glass of ok wine…
To Former Miss A.:
Are you trying to point out to my hypocrisy in that, while I condemn Robert’s sexual abuse, I am not ‘without a sin’ myself?
If so, I am not sure that it is intelligent to compare a situation where two people who love each other and have sex when one of them is on his way out of his previous marriage and that of Robert’s.
If you have any more insightful thoughts about my sex life, please feel free to write to my email address:
privetrita@hotmail.com
By the way, it’s a nature of any blog to die out after serving it’s purpose. If you are so concerned about it’s wellbeing, and suggesting a way of keeping a high standard:
‘…the possibility of developing a dialogue between those that are in and those of us who are out is not presently feasible due to the tone and language of the postings; the majority of which evoke either a defensive or an attacking response’, why don’t you try to make a dialogue happen, instead of bringing me to write a defensive response?
March 16, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Many years ago I asked the Teacher how to work with “I”s (thoughts) that still project issue which I had with my parents upon the Teacher. He said I still have to work with those “I”s… Questions closed…I lived it for many years and started to see dependency.. Dependancy from autorians, teachers, my work, acceptance of my friends, dependency related to phone calls, and aspects that I have not yet discovered.
A friend of mine had a bad cold and decided she could work again. She came home that evening and was sick again…went to the doctor and got antibiotics and had to stay home for a week. She said the doctor did not have to twist her arm to stay home…for me it was also clear that she needed an authorian in this case the doctor to give her permission to stay home. The next day a friends told me you do not need to ask for permission what you read or study..you are not so foolish to ask this to…”an authorian” you just do it because you have your own commons sense.
In the ER where I work I see patients and several say: I did everything what the doctor said to do and I am still not better….? Giving your inner decision guidance away is a form of dependancy and a soliciting for suffering/ depression.. and a wonderfull way to blame others for our unhappiness.
Many patients family, suffer because they see their family or friends suffer…Sounds noble…? It is a buffer..you are the one that can be responsible for your own happiness…you can feel good now and if you are depending on your surroundings….joy will always be very far… this is not a perfect society. But the sky is always worth noticing…the wrinkles when your friends smiles are beautiful, the beatings of your heart is there as is your breathing moment by moment.. For your enjoyment.
The same day when the above happened I received an email with the following question and I will not give you the author as this might not help at this point… All I ask is to sit with this question and live it and look into your heart. Or as Mr Ouspensky said: Do you trust your teacher or not? If not ?
Q. Where is the line between trust and respect to the Teacher versus pretending that the Teacher can do no wrong?
A. Forget that the Teacher can do no wrong. This sort of immature projection is what seekers do as a way to avoid responsibilities for them selves. One should never give their good (common) sense away and if they do it is their own fault. Mature respect and trust are always earned. If the student gives it immediately, this is not only immature but dangerous. It is a sign that the seeker is not looking for the truth but for a father or mother figure- someone to tell them what to do and to relieve them of the insecurity of knowing the truth.
Disclaimer: This email is not intended to evoke opposite “I”s or any responses. It is intended to evoke questioning yourself in the moment and to live the question…time will give us the answers….
March 16, 2007 at 4:54 pm
Simon has asked me to pass on this message to Cry Baby.
Would you please stop making false assumptions about him (post 131). How can he be reading this blog when he is lost out there somewhere in the wilderness looking for his horse that has run off (post 2).
And with due respect to Truth is Where You Find It (post 8), who bemoans the lack of content of Simon’s posts, just as Simon bemoans Truth’s lack of salt, he wishes to convey that he is continuing in earnest in his attempts to “prolong the present”, even if he is struggling with the underlying concept: if the present in itself is not subject to the vagaries of time, how can one prolong it?
However, Simon is quite certain that if you are able to turn a blind eye (I) to lack of logic (common sense) underpinning the task at hand, you should not need to rue your efforts for at least a few more years to come, by which time hopefully your tears of joy / pain? will have stemmed their flow and Simon will have found his horse.
March 16, 2007 at 5:08 pm
Picture a large meeting at Renaissance/ Apollo/ Isis. The leader of the meeting begins with the following words:
“The topic of today’s meeting is Lying.”
This sentence may never again be uttered at a Fellowship meeting, but indirectly this is one of THE subjects of this meeting (this online discussion group):
The subject of lying.
So, here’s one “angle” on the topic:
One of the best ways to perpetuate a lie is to not use the word — not even bring up the topic, not bring up the possibility. Because if you do start discussing it, you begin to slowly reveal lies — both in ourselves and in those around us. You start asking: What do we really know about what we are doing here? What do we really know about the leader and leaders of this group? What does the leader of the group really know? What do the leaders know? What do they really know about inner work? What do I know about inner work? What do they really know about future events, whether it’s 1984 or 1998 or some year in the future? What have we sincerely and honestly “verified.”
Do we really know what happens to a student when they leave the school? Do we really know that it’s a bad idea to leave the school? Do we really know that it’s a good idea to trust the idea that it’s a bad idea to leave the school?
What happens to a person when they die? Do we know? Is it truly a “brutal universe”? Or is it a brutal universe “from one angle”, and a wondrous and loving universe from another angle? Are both true? Are we pretending to know the answers to these questions?
Do we really know that press releases and articles in the newspaper are true, or that what we read in an fof meeting handout is true? And yes, do we really know that what we write in this online discussion group is true? All good questions.
And maybe the most important question of all, which is hinted at by Vena in the letter she attributed to Miles: Are we lying to ourselves?
Recognizing a lie is one of the foundations of critical thinking. And from there, maybe we can see something more clearly about the world that we’re a part of, and more importantly, maybe we can start to see ourselves. Which after all, is a major component of inner work. Right?
March 16, 2007 at 8:22 pm
Cry Baby, it is an honor to be counted among your targets. (But is it possible to “upgrade” from a mere post-script? Just thought I’d ask.)
I apologize for exaggerating. (It kind of sucks living with a “lying machine”.) It now appears there may be other reasons for Rick Ross’s website (cited by Sheik at the start of this discussion) and others recently becoming “unavailable”.
I do not consider efforts to censor or silence a joke. There have been numerous calls to end this forum or remove content (e.g. Cry Baby #131). Thus far, Sheik has resisted the pressure.
March 16, 2007 at 8:26 pm
Cry Baby, since you have developed a fondness for my tales, I’ll offer up another one. Your PPPPPS to Arthur in your post #131 puts me in mind of an incident from days of yore.
I was young, and quite new to the school. The story in question involves my first attempts to understand the nature of “false personality.” I was sitting with a center director, one of the FOF’s original students, Jessica Lee. (I use her name because she passed away some 20 years ago.) I was having trouble really grasping just what this thing “false personality” might be.
She offered me an example that, whatever else I may think of the FOF and the 4th Way, remains with me for its ability to capture the nature of what we mean by this term, “false personality.”
She and two other students were walking in a field at Renaissance (now Isis). One of the students bent down and happily exclaimed, “Look at the pretty flower!” For some reason, the other student mocked this, saying “Look at the pretty flower!” I cannot fully convey on the written page how the tone of Jessica’s voice changed with the two utterances — the first full of innocence and delight, the second nasty and sarcastic. Okay, I got it — that’s false personality (or one aspect of it anyway).
In case you are too thick to see the connection CB, I am not talking about flowers here, but about what you said to Arthur. If you don’t grasp why I’m coming to his defense, you might want to go back and read some of his posts a little more carefully and see where he’s coming from.
Cry Baby, since you seem so keen on doing the “Work,” then here is a “photograph” for you. See if you have the “guts” to take it.
Though your posts use more work language than anyone else’s, they are also filled with, by far, the most false personality and negativity.
You are a vain, spiteful, hateful prick as far as I can tell, and however many years of so-called “working on yourself” has done nothing to change that.
March 16, 2007 at 10:06 pm
too much noise….Enjoy the silence!
March 16, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Cry Baby’s(#131)nasty remarks about Miles are inaccurate and although I did not know Miles well, I respected the sincerity and integrity in the letter he wrote to a friend that I quoted from. So, to set the record straight on his behalf I am posting another extract from that letter:
“I left FOF (March 1985) because I no longer believed that RB was a “conscious being”, or any such thing in a positive sense, and because I had come to view FOF as being an insuperable obstacle to the very process it was purportedly to promote. Furthermore, I felt that my membership in FOF gave support to RB, enabling him to continue his game of illusions and seduction. Though there are a few aspects of the lifestyle that I miss (such as the concerts), and a few people whose association I would have preferred to maintain, I have not regretted the decision, ever.
You undoubtedly heard that I conducted groups for a period of time after my departure, and you may have also heard that I discontinued doing so over two years ago. Part of the bargain I made with myself at the beginning was that I would not conduct groups past the point where I felt that I had nothing more to impart, which was what happened. After my experience in FOF, I knew that I could not just repeat the same old jive until my teeth fell out.”
March 16, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Sheik, in spite of your consistent efforts towards openness to allow for freedom of speech, posting #140 is a good example of why this blog is in a nosedive.
Rita is quite right when she writes, “it’s a nature of any blog to die out after serving it’s purpose.”
The only drawback is that as our postings become more bitter and spiteful, “the purpose” of the blog becomes more obtuse, whereby we hasten its fate to disintegrate from within.
I am sure I speak for all of us when I say that our respect and admiration for “innernaut’ was greatly enhanced by calling “cry baby” a prick.
It would be most productive if the resentment we take with postings that are not to our liking are not aired in a fashion similar to Donald and Rosie.
Wishing you open hearts and minds,
Former Ms. America
March 16, 2007 at 11:02 pm
Innernaut–point well taken, Thanks for the photograph!
March 16, 2007 at 11:12 pm
Lies, damn lies and statistics (Disraeli)
Truth has been abused so often and so hard that it is hardly recognizable nowadays. What/where is truth? Is it “where you find it”? Do you find it here?
Questions beg answers, but are the answers to our questions the truth? One thing that attracted me to the 4th way was it allowed for the unknown to be, indicating also that many of the questions I asked could not be answered (satisfactorily and definitely) in my present state of consciousness. Was that the truth? I have yet to verify otherwise. This observation led me to try and learn about states of consciousness and what controls them. I am not going to revisit this subject (many have done so already), only to say that I have verified that my states of consciousness indeed vary greatly, in pretty much the way I read and was told they do.
A more intriguing observation I made is that, in what I would call my higher moments (relative to states of consciousness), questions fall by the way side. As many have said before, the moment is and “imposes” itself. The rest of the time, I have many questions, skepticism of the answers I get, and statistics are not of much help.
What is the relevance of all this to the subject at hand? This blog clearly shows that any one answer does not stop questions from coming, with more possible answers to follow. Should we stop asking questions and/or should we refrain from trying to answer them? To paraphrase the popular saying “if you cannot stand the heat, stay out of the kitchen” – if you cannot stand the answers, do not pose the questions. Clearly, many prefer to do so (to not ask questions), about the FOF, about RB, about themselves. Or, if they have the questions, they are careful about whom they ask. Others claim they got hold of the truth, which solves pretty much everything and sets them free.
Notwithstanding the theory of many life times, this life is the one experiment we have going, and we do not know when the switch is going to be turned off. Stay vigilant, look out, ponder, and beware of statistics.
March 16, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Former Ms. America (143): I have loved every single one of Innernaut’s posts and I understand very well why he would call Cry Baby a prick, I have been on the verge of doing the same. Cry Baby has not been hiding his spite for other people, why should we hide ours? Whether you use sarcasm, or swear words, it’s all the same. Having read all of Cry Baby’s posts, and all of Innernaut’s, I know which one of those two guys deserves my respect. You will have to make that choice yourself.
Obviously, this discussion is not what you would like it to be. If you go to http://www.wordpress.com, or http://www.blogger.com you will find that you can start a discussion like this in 10-30 minutes. If you do so, I will help you advertise it and post the link in here. You could also use a different platform than a blog, making yours and others’ lives much easier. If you would like any help, my e-mail address is around.
As far as I am concerned, and I repeat myself here, the purpose of the discussion has been met. Mine has, others’ haven’t. Yours never will unless you do something about it.
Good luck.
March 17, 2007 at 12:00 am
With all due respect, Former Ms. America, you keep telling me this forum is a “nosedive” — but that’s not the way I experience it.
Sure there is bickering and a few nasty posts, but there is also a discussion that many of us can’t have anywhere else.
An earlier post denounced the “venom,” and you decried the forum as “bitter and spiteful” — maybe I’m just too poisonous to notice, but I don’t see it in that many of the posts. Why not just ignore them? Why not look for the doughnut and not the hole (a cliche — apologies to Mr. Orwell).
If you want to raise the level of discussion — why not raise it, and introduce a new idea, rather than merely denouncing the other posters?
March 17, 2007 at 12:12 am
Re #143: And where do you fit into all this, Ms. America? So far all you have done is criticize and bemoan the low state of the blog.
I was very intentional in my choice of words for Cry Baby. I have not addressed anyone on this blog that way before, and probably won’t again. But his consistently hurtful, personal attacks veiled in a defense of the FOF finally stepped over the line, in my opinion. I chose my words carefully, in the hope of penetrating the dense wall of sarcasm and false personality that he hides behind. (Sorry for talking about you in the 3rd person CB, if you’re there.) To my knowledge, he hasn’t written a single sincere word on this blog — everything is criticism and sarcasm and judgment from on high. I have been critical and sarcastic at times myself here, but I believe my sincere postings have at least outweighed those. I have no idea what CB really believes, because it’s buried in so much nastiness. He doesn’t talk, he sneers. It’s like when little kids start taking things too far and parents say, “Somebody’s going to get hurt!” Well, I suspect more than one person did get hurt by what he said, particularly Arthur.
Now, Ms. America, two more questions: do YOU have anything positive to contribute? And if not, why on earth are you even reading this?
March 17, 2007 at 12:15 am
Cry baby let me see if i have this right. Robert Burton spent 18 months in some dubious “school” and became a soaring man #5. Miles spent 12yrs in one of the greatest “schools” ever to grace the planet earth and may have become a tentative, potential man #5 who at the time you new him really had something to share and give and did it well. Then he lost his guts and left the fof.
Have another bottle of wine and keep those hydrogens of consciousness circulating.
You are an idiot!
March 17, 2007 at 12:16 am
One more thing. Cry Baby, I should not have said you are a vain, spiteful, hateful person (or words to that effect). I should have said your words sound vain, spiteful, and hateful. I am sure you are more than the sum of these negative characteristics. I only wish you would show us more of that here. Thanks for listening.
March 17, 2007 at 12:35 am
Dearest Cry Baby ,
Do you actually want to know what I personally find disturbing about that e-mail from the directors?
I have to admit that it sounds very well meant and I can even bring myself to somehow appreciate the effort and the courage of the people involved in the “intervention “;
Truth is that if I would come to you , or to any of the other centre directors /Isis “mediators”, with any of my many questions, I won’t really receive an actual answer
( yes , I know , still distrustful, Tankx for the photograph by the way , I’ll work on it..),
rather a very well spoken speech to convince me that my questions are either unfounded, unnecessary, formatory or, —even worst —, coming from the lower self (buhhhh…..) in the first place;
simply “been there , done that” matter of facts
(the best at that is always Girard ..brilliant intellectual centre, using SOOO many effective words to say absolutely NOTHING ).
As a matter of fact, I asked YOU some of those questions on this blog earlier on, and you dismissed them as well, even though you’re protected by the burlesques musk you’re wearing here .
Don’t use it only to disdain and affront , make some profit out of your legendary superior level of being. Come on girl ! Show us what you’ve got besides untamed sarcasm.
And by the way.. since it appears like you must have shared dozens & dozens of glasses of wine with a quite large number of FRIENDS over the years , have you actually ever listened to them, in those rare moments of sobriety in between bottles, and really tried to understand and being open to their struggle , even if it wasn’t your own ??
What a shame for you… so many good “vino buddies “ vanishing without a trace..
Look out , my dear “Crime Baby” , Fear is an invisible and yet very heavy chain to bear.
(Oh, I’m getting good at this : did you realize that “chain” is synonymous of “sequence” ? … wow, do I get a voucher ?????!!??)
Have a good day, enjoy the meeting, make eye contact, keep on smiling , even if you’re screaming inside.
PS To Former Ms America…..
there is a lot of intellectual prosperity among the posts , if you take the time to read them ;
But , some people are still aching too much and they’re still in the process of merely “chewing” on what happened to them on an emotional level , that makes unreasonable to be expecting much neutrality and, sometimes , even any moderation from them.
Never the less ,we all have something to say and diversity has a great potential to profit everyone, including you.
PPS Dear Rita, Previet……
I‘ve appreciate most of your contributions, but try to understand that when you relinquish the benefits of using an anonymous name, with that you take on the risk of receiving personal comments; avoid the ping-pong of replays, please, it‘s boring & juvenile,
just ignore them… including this one .
Kisses to you , you can keep them anyway.
March 17, 2007 at 12:46 am
Thank you to:-
No Person
Peter O’Toole
Yesri Baba
…for your thoughts on negativity/suffering.
Your comments definately ring a ‘truth’ bell, though as Comrade says, how much do we know for sure? And how much are we living by what we profess to know, or have verified? Peter O’Toole, I am not sure about your distinction between ‘spiritual aspects and everyday life’. Surely the two are intertwined? Negativity is negativity and although I agree, you can let these emotions pass as they inevitably do, by examining their source you can learn more about what is really going on.
For example, and to pose another question; what would you say is a good way to deal with the negative manifestations of depreciation, cynicism, sarcasm, criticism, intolerance and viciousness? When you find yourself making scathing remarks to or about others? Just wait and let it pass, as it will, or examine it’s roots, look at what is behind it…
…could it be this sense of “me” attempting to reinforce itself, trying to make itself real by convincing itself it is bigger, better and more clever than other people? And what is beneath that? Fear, from my experience of these emotions. Fear of seeing inherant weaknesses in oneself and others. The inability to empathise with another because of the fear of seeing that they are a mirror for us? These manifestations are “full of sound and fury, signifying nothing” because the “me” behind them thinks it is separate, creates and puts it’s identity in being ‘separate’, when in fact we are part of the one and all.
(Inspired by Cry Baby – prickly thing ‘aint she? I wonder why? She definately likes attention and gets it on this blog. Is it because she evokes a reaction in us? What is that reaction, and what is beneath it? I used to dismiss her comments as I just did not understand where she was coming from, and was suprised by her ‘fan club’, but now she has helped me to clarify what is behind some pretty common negative manifestations)
(oooh, maybe she’ll mention me in her next post, make some snide remark, what fun! Or maybe she will like me and say something complementary!)yes, we all contain (pretty similar) many I’s!
Thanks Keith, for the interesting history lesson of the FOF, I did not know these things, but I am not sure if it would have made a difference, or makes a difference now. Somehow it strikes me though that some of the ‘work ideas’ are easily verified while others turn out to be balloney. Reinforces the fact that we all have to work it out for ourselves, and living can be an exciting adventure and exploration of unexplored territory. The joy is in the ‘journey’, who cares about getting to Rome?
Idiots One and All
March 17, 2007 at 1:27 am
Ha! Ha! – Bloody Brilliant! (my reaction to posts Former Miss – America 143 and Cry Baby 144, in response to Innernaut’s post 140)
Ha! Ha! – (my reaction to my assumption that Cry Baby is female and Sheik’s that they are male)
Isn’t it fun to watch the I’s?
March 17, 2007 at 1:30 am
One and All (153): 🙂
March 17, 2007 at 1:31 am
Dear Former miss America, are you rying to persuade yourself and others that this blog is dying? You really keep pushing your opinion and giving this blog your grim diagnosis. Why? It doesn’t seem to be dying or going anywhere – it’s here, it exists, it’s pretty active and seem to be enjoyed by many visitors. It’s a place where people express their opinions, whatever the opinions are at the moment. No writes or wrongs. Cheer up, friend, have a glass of wine!
March 17, 2007 at 2:50 am
The author of this text is an imaginary person, who doesn’t exist, except in the minds of those who believe him to be real. Any similarity with real persons or events is pure coincidence.
In the last two years a considerable number of students have left the School, alluding to reasons related to the new form. Apparently, the keys are too subjective an interpretation of ancient esoteric and religious texts. They say I’ve tried too hard to force Fourth Way ideas into historical religious tradition. In addition, many students think that passing from the 14 ways to the 30 Work I’s was also quite strange, and that the number 30 is completely arbitrary. I’ve heard it said that work ideas have been changed too many times before getting to a definitive result. Someone even sent me the comment that in the moment I suppressed the Work I “Gods” it seemed to him that we had been abandoned.
‘Where have the Gods gone?’ asked this student.
Other students have said that there is no proof at all that Schools existed in the past, and the idea that the first School appeared in Egypt is probably my own invention. I’ve also heard more than once the comment that the idea that we are a real School is also my own invention.
As regards our wonderful new tool the Sequence, many say it is impractical in most circumstances, and since it has been modified time and time again since I first proposed it, that it is an irresponsible improvisation, designed only to divert student’s attention.
Finally, in all these criticisms words like Reality, Truth, Arbitrary, Objective, Lie, Credible, and Incredible appear frequently.
The majority of students who find themselves in this dilemma are the older ones – those that have formed an integral part of the building of the School. Many have been members for 15, 20, 25 or more years and I am mainly speaking to them, and it is they that I need to remind – who I have always been.
Does it not seem at least as arbitrary and unbelievable as my interpretations of ancient texts, the idea of 44 Conscious Beings guiding us, producing shocks, and even beings such as Leonardo, Jesus, Goethe and others, visiting me from time to time?
Does it really seem possible that someone like Leonardo could have appeared in my closet, or that Jesus visits me in my bedroom when I am alone? And yet, this is what I’ve said in the past for many years, and nobody seemed to think it wasn’t possible.
As far as the 14 ways and the 30 Work I’s: Perhaps these concepts aren’t fantastic or incredible enough for my students to accept?
I’d like to remind you that you believed me almost without problems, when I described things much more hare-brained, such as my predictions. I know of students that lost many financial opportunities when they spent all their long-term savings, because I predicted a financial catastrophe in 1984, that would destroy the world economy.
And in1998? Didn’t many of you come to live at Apollo because California was going to fall into the sea? And how many of you built houses here for that reason?
Many of you have passed your lives interpreting signs, license plates, numbers, accidental phrases, thinking that the Gods were trying to communicate something.
All this was me.
Nothing in my life has ever been credible or natural. I have never pretended to sell something ordinary, real, or tangible. It’s always been creative invention.
What, to speak of credibility, does Greek mythology contain? Nothing.
What that is objective? Nothing.
It’s all the creation of a spirit who was destined to create an environment in which the majority of people of that epoch could live happily – in illusion.
For all these years, you have needed illusions. You arrived in the School looking for someone that would tell marvelous stories about conscious beings, consciousness, and your Selves. And there I was to sell you – for a reasonable price – something as valuable and legitimate as an illusion, and one that could last for years.
Simple reality has always seemed opaque to me.
The idea of The Ark is also quite fantastic. Without that, it would have been impossible to build such an idyllic and pleasant venue, favorable to seduction (which I needed) and which I openly shared with all of you.
Some of you know how savage and inhospitable nature was around this place before my arrival. I believe Nature is naturally boring, and though she has good intentions, she doesn’t know how to express them. She lacks imagination and fantasy; what’s more nature is uncomfortable, rough, and full of little disagreeable creatures. At least Nature doesn’t really know how to think. In fact, thinking is a kind of insanity, and there are those that die of it – like any other illness. Fortunately, at least at Isis, thinking is not contagious.
These days, I am reproached for disallowing personal expression in my events; I know that. I found myself obligated to suppress personal angles and questions after the unfortunate meeting in Russia, in which some students dared to ask me indiscrete questions about my sex life, which of course I would never entertain.
This measure was absolutely necessary in order to proceed with intensive fund raising without undesirable denying forces. In these tumultuous days in the School, wherein everyone asks questions about everything, I will ask the council to hold well focused discussions about specific themes of my choice.
There are dozens of assertions that are said to prove my contradictory and incongruent nature. But who pretends to be congruent? In these 30 years, have I been congruent in my incessant affirming, denying, affirming, and denying time and time again? No.
All my assertions have been frank, and intrepid, with a healthy and natural contempt for any kind of proof.
What is a good lie, at bottom? – that which needs no proof. If one is so bereft of creative imagination as to need proof to support a lie, better to tell the truth directly. It’s not my style and never has been. Remember that…
Evidently if you all persist so stubbornly with moral or logical considerations, I will be obliged to retire earlier than anticipated. This possibility has been in the planning for a long time, and I am quite prepared for it – even financially. You may have guessed who will be my successor.
Love,
The Wizard of Iz.
March 17, 2007 at 3:12 am
Thanks, George Orwell, for recommending your 1946 essay, “Politics and the English Language”:
http://www.mtholyoke.edu/acad/intrel/orwell46.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_orwell
Meanwhile, here’s a plug for the modern-day George’s comments about the use of language in the fof. See Part 3, Post #50.
Also, in case anyone missed it: see Inner Jewels, Part 3, Post #53.
And Tim, thanks for all of your posts — and to others (both inside and outside of the fof) for helping us laugh and think and reflect. Thanks for your thoughts, Arthur, in Post 96, and also “one and all” in Post 97.
March 17, 2007 at 3:17 am
Tim, by the way, in relation to your comments about fof postings being removed from the internet, it’s interesting that Wikipedia.org doesn’t have a Fellowship of Friends listing. There could be a reasonable explanation for it, but this site allows anyone to post — literally anyone. Also, people are allowed to post information about just about any topic, although wikipedia does list some exceptions and other guidelines.
But why is there no fof topic on that site? For example, other listings in somewhat similar categories include:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Quakers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Catholicism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Mormonism
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Scientology
and on and on and on…
But no Fellowship of Friends. Why not? This is a relatively well-known religious organization that’s affiliated with an award-winning winery (see http://www.rvw.com). The organization has affected thousands of lives in the past 37 years, and it has gained attention in the media on several occasions. The wikipedia site includes about 1.7 million articles, and it has a huge following. Just asking.
March 17, 2007 at 3:21 am
Dear Rita,
You have expressed the sorrow of being separated from your one time friends. We know how that feels…. We offer you T.S. Eliot from the Four Quartets. There are some who way that if you really want to awaken there comes a time when you have to pay a price, and that price is your life.
”You say I am repeating
Something I have said before. I shall say it again.
Shall I say it again? In order to arrive there,
To arrive where you are, to get to where you are not,
You must go by a way wherein there is no ecstasy.
In order to arrive at what you do not know
You must go by a way which is the way of ignorance.
In order to possess what you do not possess
You must go by the way of dispossession.
In order to arrive at what you are not
You must go through the way in which you are not.
And what you do not know is the only thing you know.
And what you own is what you do not own
And where you are is where you are not”
All this sounds wonderful on paper, the actuality is somewhat different.
We greet you as a friend
Aristidis and Diana
March 17, 2007 at 3:41 am
Dear All
When I started this Work inside of the fellowship, I was in a 4th way school.
One of the major concepts to work with was; Man is a machine, or rather functions as a machine a lot of the time, it is sleeping and therefore swayed by all influences.
The recognition of this as a truth in me, was what compelled me to join.
I had never encountered something like that, a tradition were this idea was emphasized as much and were there was a system of thought that explained wich mechanismes are existend to keep this machine working by itself.
You know; identifying, inner considering, feminine dominance, imagination but also lying and buffering. The machine that is resisting knowing itself because ultimately that would make it evaporate. Seeing it’s contradictions would make it collapse, and the real Self would rise out of it’s ashes like a fenix.
Then there are things you can do to get a taste of this, flashes of it; by selfremembering.
All kinds of tricks to make yourself stop.. and see what is before me.
To me the non-dual approach is just another approach, another set of words and beliefs to make you get to that place. What you are looking for, is what is looking. Also in the fellowship a favored quote.
Realising that you are already there, that there is nowhere to go to because you can not be anywhere else then here (the non-dual words), has helped me to see that the efforts that I make are very often taking me further away from Presence because they are made by the machine that has now adapted the fellowship-persona and it’s words.
I have forgotten that higher centers are already here and functioning (fellowship words) I can’t find my glasses (non-dual words). All octaves become descending naturally unless you put energy in them. But you have to be pretty on top of things to see them, especially the deeper layers.
I don’t know myself, my psychological landscape is too complex to see all the attitudes that are distorting the words (any words that are listened to for a longer period).
Reading this blog has made some of the contradictions or distortion of words more apparent and I feel much more alive ‘not knowing’ than seeming to have ‘all the answers’ in the system, just needing to figure everything out.(an inner voice says that I should do that should be able to that or I am just lazy).
That ís the way the school does make me feel with all the convinced angles and quotes. It does seem that there is not too much room for ‘not knowing’ in the form of the school right now.
There was a post on the first page of this blog that made a very big impression on me. It told the story of how a concept as voluntary suffering can be twisted around to mean that you can’t feel good or happy.
And I am concerned about more things that the school now makes me feel.
The idea of the machine, that has a dualistic undertone but is intented as neutral has evolved to; the lower self, the king of clubs as the mind of it activily undermining presence. Very dualistic to say the least..
How does that effect my psychological landscape?
Is it an emotional koan? One that one bursts out of by making that radical change of perspective that is called awakening?
Of course there is a different approach to this again; the school is not longer for men nr 4 (who is struggling with the above; words distorted and putting it’s identity in ‘things’) but for men nr 5. Robert is taking us into unknown territory, if you can’t keep up and fly of the chessboard, you stay behind.
I do know that going with that energy.. takes me somewhere, that the sequence can serve as a ladder, a bridge, an aeroplane to follow Robert on his trip. But isn’t it just that? A trip? How much Reality is in there? What is Reality?
Living the question
March 17, 2007 at 4:01 am
Dear One and all, to your another question: “what would you say is a good way to deal with the negative manifestations of depreciation, cynicism, sarcasm, criticism, intolerance and viciousness?”
It all sounds so familiar, because this stuff was torturing me for years. It’s like you’re describing my own feelings…Being centered in a queen I use to be expolsive, bitter, cynical, jealous and so judgmental… I worked on it too, very sincerely, for many years, tried not to express, tried to reason with myself, to explain in work language why I shouldn’t feel this way and why it’s a waste of energy… But to no permanent result. Before the school I used to scream at people when I was angry and even hit some, and in school I learned to be quiet, to smile and not express, but screaming and anger continued inside nevertheless. I could not stop FEELING negative – so many things just really bothered me in one way or another. I was vulnerable and prone to negativity. It’s like it all was poking me, annoying me, going against me, disagreeing with me… The face was trained to smile to people, and inside I was judging them bitterly and even hating them. Familiar, isn’t it?
How to deal with negativity? Honestly I don’t know if it actually could be (or should be) dealt with. What I come to realize is that negativity is not what needs to be dealt with. Because it is an unfortunate BYPRODUCT of something else which needs to be looked at honestly. It’s like thunder – doesn’t happen by itself, you need to see the root of negativity, where it stems from, what it’s attached to.
I can only speak from personal experience, and it may or may not work for others. All I can honestly say, that upon seeing (with J. Wheeler’s help) that the whole notion of “me” is illusory – most of the negativity just simply left me. It just doesn’t “stick” anymore. And most of it never even comes up. I am being honest about it. I still do get ever so slightly edgy here and there, but no more that huge old judgment of other people or bitter cynicism, or deep hatred like it used to be, or all of those long nasty accounts… Amazingly, the same people whom I used to dislike so much are still around, but they don’t bother me in the least now. I just look at them, and I feel nothing negative. Sometimes I feel… like I even like them or feel for them… So strange, so not “me”. I still can’t believe it sometimes, that all of this heavy burden is just simply gone, it is not felt anymore, nothing to supress or control…
This “me” that I used to belive in, is seen now as something unreal, imagined and belived in. It wasn’t ever real, it couldn’t be ever observed in reality. It was a mental image, a false identity, but it had so much strong personal opinion – all based on memory and programming! And most negativity was connected to this “me”. It was one big fake identity that mind supported for years. Basically, the mind made up the concept of “me” out of bits of memory and a name and carried it around. And all that ever happened was referred to this “me” who had a lot to say! And consciousness that we truly are was simply overlooked, because the imagined “me” was so believed in.
The “me” crumbled when it was seen as a mental image. Somehow resolving the question of one’s true identity resolved the whole issue of negativity and judgment. I didn’t expect negativity to go away, it all happened by itself, and it was a pleasant surprise. The disappearance of negativity was like a bonus. The imaginary “me” doesn’t seem to return, once it was exposed and seen as a false entity. Negativity doesn’t return either. These two seem to go together.
Consciousness, which is who we truly are, just watches the play. Life goes on, it is adventurous and fresh. Everything and everyone is OK.
I am not sure if this answers your question. I just wanted to share what worked for me, and although it was not labeled as “work on negativity” but it took care of it somehow.
March 17, 2007 at 4:25 am
Folks, thanks for your postings–we listened, Cry Baby has been arrested, thrown in jail, kicked out of the FOF and will no longer bother any of you, nor will she have access to the Internet–so let’s get back to business as usual. Sorry for the interruption.
March 17, 2007 at 4:41 am
I have only now discovered this discussion, these many years after completing my studies under Robert Burton. I am disappointed, although not entirely surprised, to see the same endless whining about the Master’s so-called deviant sexual practices.
After decades of opportunity to witness and study, it seems that most still have no comprehension whatsoever of the true nature of the Master’s Work. Robert Burton is perhaps the greatest Alchemist of this age. I reveal no secrets in pointing out that the male ejaculate is one of the Prima Materia, one of the ingredients essential to the formation of the Lapis Philosophorum, the Philosopher’s Stone, the aqua vitae, the Elixir, in the Inner Retort, that which turns the “basest of metals” into the “finest of gold.” And of course, the effluvium of the young and healthy male is of the finest quality for this work.
Those of us who studied under the Master truly and diligently and have practiced in our own right what he taught by example have completed the alchemical Work of Transmutation of the elements and reached the end of the Work that has many names but one essence.
Now back in my day, the Master worked with just a single blessed erect member at a time. In lighter moments, the initiates would affectionately call the Master “the Great Seersucker” or other such endearments, and he would laugh and say, “dear, you have no idea.” Well indeed we did not, for who could have imagined FIVE or perhaps more members held simultaneously at attention for the Master to do his holy Work, as report now has it? What vision, what daring, what command! Surely this must be the apotheosis of this Art of Arts. And more! I now see that the Master has, through his deep explorations, discovered ways to transform the other effluents of the human corpus, a work undreamed of even by Paracelsus or the other luminaries of ancient times.
Non sempre ea sunt quae videntur
March 17, 2007 at 5:02 am
Fellowship of Friends-the Noah’s Ark or J.Cameron’s unsinkable “Titanic”???
March 17, 2007 at 5:04 am
Keith, I was interested in your post (126): “A con is a con is a con. A cult is a cult is a cult. And each and every one of us fell for it in some way or other.” For those of us in the FOF for 30 years or more, this is an agonizing realization. This WAS our life. We can no longer even imagine what our lives would have been without the FOF. We married in the FOF, had homes in the FOF, careers while in the FOF, had children and raised them in the FOF – this was the place of our “higher states,” our spiritual center, even if the diamond turned out to be plastic. To face the con means negating the stuff of your own life, to some extent. It means facing many contradictions at once, and facing a lot of waste. This is where the self-hatred can kick in, leading even to suicidal I’s, as described by Please (83). They do pass, and one gathers what one can from the wreckage. But we can’t be 25 years old again. This was how we spent the best years of our life, and we won’t get them back.
When people say “I learned so much in the FOF” I wonder if it’s just a buffer – how else do you face what you did to your life? “I’m grateful” seems like feminine dominance – in spiritual circles, it’s the “politically correct” thing to say. Would any of us do it again, knowing what we know now? Are you kidding!
March 17, 2007 at 5:10 am
And why are you sorry for Miles’s “karmic load”, Keith? He checked out – what? – 20 years ago. Those of us who stayed went through the worst part, and participated in the lying and deceit that allowed it all to happen. We passed out bookmarks, led perspective student meetings, and talked people out of leaving. It’s what we did not know we knew…
March 17, 2007 at 6:05 am
They may have banned telling jokes at the dinner table but there are some fine funny tales spun here. And devastating ones: Miles’ letter. (The one he wrote when he left, which I don’t believe has been posted here, was circulated and as I recall, was quite a shock for the school, as they say, back in the 80s).
On the metaphor that the earth and –our lives– are prisons, I want to chime in. It’s always astounded me that anyone would compare this fine globe to anything but heaven. A watery planet spinning just the right distance from the sun, teeming with untold life and beauty, is the closest thing to paradise that the eye can find as far as we’ve peered into time.
Sure we’ve got sharks and succubus and even lettuce screams when you chop its head off…but this is It. And we, as a species are destroying it—clearly that’s the greater crime. An indicator of sleeping beings: those who flagrantly foul their own beds. Whether or not the waters rise too fast or the clouds condense enough to flip it the other way around, we’re in for a wild ride on p. Earth, thanks to man—and it doesn’t take a prophet to see that. We better figure out what to do about it or we are doomed. Being the eternal optimist though, I have faith that Mother Nature, will out do us in the end. For now, through her grace, we have the immediate air to breathe….
And we are amongst the top one percent on the planet with wine to spare. So yeah, drink up. And bless these meals. And don’t flinch in seeing the fact that we are imprisoning ourselves and each other more than anything. Quite literally, as a nation, we’ve got grotesque numbers of people behind bars. And psychologically– what a fine way to keep the chains on by bemoaning the larger prison we all share?
The goddess was thrown out of Eden a long time ago but we’ve just begun to understand the impact of our split, as a species, from our bodies. It may seem like a tangent here but it’s not: these are mere words : the mind/body split, the lower and higher, spirit vs. matter, school vs. life. And just defining it as simply “all consciousness” isn’t sitting well with me either. A word can never contain it but boy do they mask it well.
As long as we separate ourselves from our bodies, from our own truths, we buy into what religions and governments and anyone who wants power over us has been relying on for all of history: My truth will save you, you will know and revere it. As long as the other shore is way over there and we can’t know it, then ultimately, anything goes. Our only hope is to tether our soul to someone else who keeps insisting that our compass is broken. It isn’t, we’ve just been looking in the wrong place. It’s in the meaning that words can only point to. It’s in the eyes of our friends and our enemies. It’s in the pain of promises that are broken and the intention to do good and harm no one; and in failing, to admit it and try to change; to confront despots; to bless and celebrate one’s own life as a part of all life, and therefore to recognize and praise all life as sacred.
Perhaps Eve took the apple because it was delicious, because she wasn’t afraid to know the difference between sweet and bitter, good and evil, naked and clothed. Sophia, the snake, invited her down the rabbit hole. And here we are. Isn’t this blog a little like that snake too, this sinewy trail of words, feelings, sarcasm (I’ve always considered that a sub-feeling;)? Through the tangents and the trials, the hissing and the laughter, there’s something alive here. And there’s not a person on this blog or planet I wouldn’t raise a glass with and lock eye sockets. I just may not let him drive me home.
Oh and homosexuality isn’t deviant for any of the gods I dance to… Back to the glorious snow outside my window and to remembering the warmth of my delivery boys’ brown face when I tipped him. Hey, maybe I do have a budget.
peace to all
March 17, 2007 at 7:09 am
For those who might like to know more about what kind of teacher Alex Horn is/was and what kind of “School” he has/had, I am pasting this article I found in a website. It seems that Robert learned the art of “teaching” from Alex Horn, though for what I read, Alex kicked Robert out because he said that homosexuals didn’t have a chance in this work and also because he was chasing many of the boys in his group. How did Robert start teaching? How did he gathered students? I would like to know. Those students must have been very naive and persuasive to accept him as a “real teacher”, but I wasn’t there. I joined some twenty years ago and the school was already very established with about 2,000 students that didn’t question much about Robert being a conscious teacher or not. When I think back in those days, the reason I joined the school was because of the community, not because of Robert. You didn’t see much of him in those days and the community seemed healthy and real…and beautiful. It seems such a contradiction. But I guess it is hard to keep things pure. The school had its golden age and now is on a descending octave. It is awful to see the process of something that once felt real and good and now to see how it is being corrupted by power, greed, and perversion….But life is always changing and nothing lasts forever. So time for me to leave.
Here it is:
“If you are a student stuck in a group led by Alex Horn or Sharon Gans-Horn, then the fact you are reading this is already great news. It means that you are smart enough and intuitive enough and courageous enough to have begun to distinguish between the ideas of Gurdjieff and Ouspensky and the people teaching them. Whether or not what Gurdjieff or Ouspensky taught is valuable and valid does not matter here. If you are someone who has a friend or companion who you know is involved with these groups and you don’t know what to do, try to show them this.
You are being preyed upon by phonies– very clever, manipulative, and charming (when they need to be) frauds. They crave three things– money, power, and a sense of self-importance– to excess. Any shred of self-doubt about their motives and behavior disappeared long ago– they have convinced themselves that they are superior to you and others, further justifying their need for power, money, and self-importance. They manipulate, abuse, and misuse the ideas of Gurdjieff, Ouspensky, Nicoll, and Collin to suit their agenda. I repeat– they do not serve the ideas, the ideas serve them. They are not conduits for higher influences– they are self-deluded and power-mad with a long trail of exploitation and destruction of lives and families. They will dangle the carrot of “meaning,” “consciousness,” and “freedom” before you but at the same time undermine your self-esteem by showing you how mechanical and helpless you are.
Over the course of many years they have surrounded themselves with weak-spirited and wretched lackeys whose real motivation is also the lust for power, money and the need to feel important. The way to get away from them requires both a strong mental effort followed by action. Both will be addressed here.
First of all, you must believe in your suspicions enough to look further into what type of person Alex Horn and Sharon Gans really are. Do some research on your own and study the traits of “malignant narcissism” or “malignant narcissists.” This should help to ground your suspicions in what you have observed about your “teachers.” Your “teachers” are, according to the traits of “malignant narcissism,” fully functioning sociopaths/psychopaths. That’s right– they are insane, but very dangerous so long as you think they have power over you because you continue to believe they are sane. The sad thing about the Work and these wretches is that the “Ideas” you have been studying– when manipulated by them– dovetail perfectly with the agenda of maintaining the state of Grandiosity that characterizes them as sociopaths.
How do they succeed? How do they get away with all of this? How do they fool so many people so much of the time? You might as well ask how did Hitler and Stalin get away with their agenda. It is the exact same chilling phenomenon, just a different scale. Hitler and Stalin liquidated people who got in their way or threatened them. Stalin, when he did not make people “disappear” sent them to the Gulags. With Sharon Gans or Alex Horn, when you are sent away you too become a non-person. You are in fact treated as a disease by the diseased!
Look at the following websites: http://www.geoffmetcalf.com/psychopath.html and http://www.halcyon.com/jmashmun/npd/dsm-iv.html Ask others in this forum on this website about the substance abuse they have witnessed too: food, tobacco, alcohol, mood-altering medications. Talk about “habit” and slavery!
The way to escape, once you have been convinced enough of what you read here and elsewhere, is simple. But the final obstacle to leaving is being aware of and being able to cope with the loss of all the friends you have made during your stay in the group. This will feel like a big and painful sacrifice. But ultimately they must take responsibility for their beliefs and their lives, too. Those beliefs that you once shared that brought you and your fellows closer to each other will now be the source of a divide. And the ideas that helped create that bond must now at this point not outweigh the evidence that is in front of your eyes– that Sharon Gans or Alex Horn and their respective inner circles are not really for you. They are parasites and vampires who have successfully exploited you, and you must rid yourself of them even when it means losing many friends, misguided though they may be. Which is worse, remaining in a prison– in a punitive and demoralizing environment with your companions– or being out of prison without them? You must make an intentional decision to maintain that they are wrong and you are right. Can you do that? Yes, you can. Have the courage to get out of group-think.
What about “consciousness?” Are you frightened of losing “everything?” Consider this: Is it possible that the phenomenon called “self-remembering” is actually a form of auto-hypnosis? Is it a coincidence that Gurdjieff was a professional hypnotist before “discovering” the Ideas? Is it possible that the power that Sharon Gans or Alex Horn or the other ones has over you and so many others is based on your capacity to reach a semi-hypnotic state that they “teach” you in the first place? By considering these alternative explanations you may strengthen your resolve to get out as fast as you can.
What about the lure of Higher Sex, eroticism, and “sex energy” connected with “self-remembering?” Think about it: if it is possible that self-remembering is simply a way to hypnotize yourself, then it is also possible that the urges you repress that belong to your libido are freed a little bit. Unrepressed libido and “sex energy” are equatable– yes, it could be that simple. Be courageous enough to think about it.
Again, after you have gotten past this obstacle of leaving your friends behind, the way out is simple: With either Sharon or Alex’s group, the only thing that these people understand is force, threats, intimidation, power, and the possibility of exposure. After your last “class” or “meeting,” leave pretending that all is normal. Say nothing of your intention and be resolved to never return. Then, when you are contacted by a partner for missing your next meeting…remain vague and inform them that you have decided to leave– you do not need to give an explanantion no matter how coercive they may be. No, you do not owe them an explanantion! Whatever you do, do not be talked into announcing your departure in class! You do not owe your jailers anything! Tell them that you want no further calls and you are not open to any persuasion. If they persist, remain vague but allude to either an investigative reporter acquaintance at a local newspaper, an acquaintance at the local police department, or a friend at the FBI. Any threat of an authority or potential menace that can expose Alex Horn or Sharon Gans will scare them away for good. Be prepared for a lot of idle threats and violent language though– that’s the last-ditch effort of a so-called Higher Being having a tantrum. In the end, though, it is all bark. Alex Horn and Sharon Gans may be psychopaths but they are also cowards interested only in self-preservation. They will continue to “do” nothing but talk, as they have been “doing” for many many years. If there were such a thing as Sleep, Mechanicality, buffers, and real Conscience in the sense they speak of it, those two and their crowd are much worse off than you– and incurably so”
Does this look familiar?
Thank you so much Sheik for creating this forum. It was really needed.
March 17, 2007 at 7:18 am
(part III post #99) Alexis says: “I have a question: Have you experienced the transisiton of Third force becoming denying force, and how did you overcome or work with this shift in triads?”
An angle: In a very beginning of a process of acheiving (or finding) “presence of Higher Centers” or “Real I” or “pure awareness” or “truth” one’s effort to “be present” or “not get indentified with many i’s” or “get out of imagination” or “ceasing cherishing illusions” is the first force; mechanical tendency of “Real I” to get identify (who knows why please share) either with “inner many i’s” (like thoughts, emotions, “the only way how things have to be done”) or with “external things” (“my” car, “my” spouse, “my” house) is the second force; the third force is some School, or group of like-minded people or Teacher who teaches (or point) one how to apply the first force. And when one finds out how to “be present” or becomes “pure awareness”, no more efforts needed , one becomes “awakened”, “enlightened”, “man #5”. The school with all teaching becomes useless (no more 3rd force). New “conscious being” was born. It’s a time to find another third force. There are no room for men5 inside the FOF. The aim of the school (FOF) as an organism is an endless teaching.
“Schools protect themselves” RB.
“True students abound in the School” RB. Exactly, students abound but a conscious being don’t.
“He is a poor disciple who doth not surpass his master.” Leonardo da Vinci
fofanatomy@yahoo.com
March 17, 2007 at 7:24 am
#97 – One and All – I, too, have wondered about negativity. Just turning it over in my head… it’s impossible to question this within the FOF, but looking at the results, I have started to ask more questions…
It used to be a commonplace joke that, when we would bring up the idea of the non-expression of negativity at the 1st prospective student meeting, the classic “Opposite I” was: “What about Christ and the moneychargers in the Temple?” Then we’d have a good laugh at the needle-in-the-haystack way of finding the single exception.
But now it doesn’t seem like an Opposite I; it seems very much to the point. And I’m not even sure that it’s even an exception.
One thing I’ve observed in Fellowship students is a notable absence of what, for a lack of a better term, I’ll call “fire in the belly.” Not peevishness or irritability, but the ability to see an injustice, and, with a powerful emotional third force, make it right. Can this be a thin line, leading to the justification of everyday negativity? Sure. But the justifications cut both ways: we justify and rationalize the abuse of other human beings, even our friends. There’s no criminality that we can’t “make okay” for ourselves. We see dead children from a bombed village on t.v., and we think, “Hmmmmm… how does that make me feel? What kind of I’s does that evoke in me?”
I’m not sure we aren’t better off taking the risk of the wrong kind of negativity rather than let the moneychangers stay in the temple.
That said, I have to admit that I can’t justify my own negativity – my impatience, my edginess, my reactions in traffic. I really cannot see much point in MY negativity, and I’m better off without it. But, I wonder if, in losing our negativity, we also lost any kind of … force … in our own life and in the lives of others. We are a singularly inert group of people, complacent and, for the most part, morally slack.
And is the moneychangers incident a single exception? Doesn’t appear to be – but we’ve altered the hard data to fit our theories. Our philosophy is a long cry from the many who said: “Blessed are they who mourn, for they shall be comforted.” Was he condoning (gulp) negativity? Or the man who said, “Blessed are they who hunger and thirst after righteousness, for they shall be filled.” As opposed to our philosophy of: “It’s all a play – and everything is the way it’s supposed to be.”
Oh, but that’s right, none of these words mean what the words say.
Well, Matthew (#85), I’m one of the few perhaps who really does think “adultery” has something to do with screwing.
March 17, 2007 at 7:34 am
“We are aware that material is currently being circulated that presents a negative
view of Robert and the Fellowship.
We realize that receiving – and reading – such material can be troubling and confusing. So we would like to encourage any student who feels the need for conversation to contact us. We will do our best to listen with open hearts and minds.”
Dear CL, HF, MG, EB and GH (110)
What kind of “open heart” says that if you stop paying your money none of your friends in the FOF will have anything more to do with you, and oh, by the way, your chance to awaken will be forever lost? Unless, that is, you pay us some sizeable penalty bucks to return, in which case your friends and your chance to awaken will be miraculously restored? Is this somebody’s idea of “unconditional love”?
For what it’s worth, I too am available to talk with anyone who is troubled or confused, and also anyone who is happy, blissed out or just so-so. We can talk about old times, new times, self-remembering, Gurdjieff, Advaita, you name it — phone, email, or in person (Seattle area). The good news: I charge 0% of your income. The bad news: I peaked out at Man Number 3 1/2, and since then have regressed to roughly Man Number Zero.
Seriously, I am not a teacher of any sort whatsoever, but if anybody wants to talk, do get in touch. I would encourage others to do the same. Stella* set a great example. Maybe it’s time for others to take up where she left off.
Mark H.
FOF member 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
*Stella has passed away, but please read: http://www.geocities.com/stella_wirk/index2.html
(There are some powerful letters on that site from former students – read the whole site! I don’t know who the email link goes to, if anybody. Harold maybe?)
And: http://www.4thway.com/stella
March 17, 2007 at 7:40 am
There are three sorts of students as I can see:
1) everstudents-believers-RB’s devotees, they just like to hear anything from RB for the sake of process itself or just likes RB (he’s externaly cute).
2) succesful ascending souls who found a right way to learn from the school, to evolve in man5 and to leave (sooner or later).
3) not-knowers or “waiting room”, they are confused by messy teaching, but have a hope to figure out something useful later, they are waiting. If they will be lucky they’ll go to sort 2, if not – to sort 1 or leave the school or become “a student of rare occurrence”.
In order to locate your own position please go through this simple test:
Please read careful two quotes below.
“One of the very best ways to remember oneself is to remove what is not self-remembering.” RB
“Get rid of all your illusions and what’s left is the truth” Adyashanti
To save your time there are possible answers:
1. First is right, second is wrong
2. Second is right, first is wrong
3. Both are right (theoretically)
4. I don’t know
5. I know from my experience both are true
6. Both are wrong
Keying with some advices:
1. you’re “good FOF student” sort 1; you’re going to the Celestial City of Paradise for sure with RB, just believe…
2. you’re a former student and you retired from sort 3; forget and forgive RB, find your way, don’t stop…
3. you’re on the right way, keep moving from sort 3 to sort 2, remember brevity of life…
4. you’re in trouble, you need to become more definite about your life because it’s short…
5. good work, man5, but keep evolving…
6. you’re a “dead” man or on incomprehensible level, what are you doing here?
I’d like to hear “opposite angles” (promise not to “photograph”).
Maybe some fine divisions exist. It’s a theory but for me it looks quite close to the FOF.
fofanatomy@yahoo.com
March 17, 2007 at 8:21 am
“Until this Blog I am sure no one knew what was going on…”
HUH??? What are you talking about??? Twenty years ago everybody knew what was going on, though few would admit it in a crowded room. Not everyone knew about the orgies, but it was totally common knowledge that Robot…er, Robert… was very fond of sex with young men and had coerced quite a few of them into doing his bidding.
No one knew for sure what was going on??? You must be kidding!!!
March 17, 2007 at 10:08 am
Ditto for me. (innernaut’s Post #150)
March 17, 2007 at 10:30 am
I am a little confused about lower self, higher self. Who takes care of lower self when higher self is gone. Does lower self take care of lower self or is there middle self? Or does higher self hire nanny self to watch over lower self? When higher self comes back does he fire nanny self or does nanny self still take care of lower self? Or when higher self comes back does lower self go away or become proxy oral sex self. All very confusing.
March 17, 2007 at 11:34 am
ps: How about the non-smoking excersize? Anyone want to comment on that one?
March 17, 2007 at 2:57 pm
Another reason to balance the scales of negativity is called assult and battery.
March 17, 2007 at 5:40 pm
The Golden Fleece (163):
Interesting train of thought…I am not sure if you are being serious are sarcastic! But if we take what you say at face value, wouldn’t that imply that consuming semen can help us in our ‘quest for consciousness’? Statistically that would make heterosexual women the most likely group to evolve, prostitutes and promiscuous women perhaps having the best chance!
Sex does appear to involve a higher energy, and can evoke some of the most mystical experiences, yet this seems to be most likely to occur in an equal and mutually consentual context, and I would suggest does not relate to the physical properties of the secreted substance, because if it did, it would be bottled and marketed by now! Women would be paying men to do blow jobs, not the other way around! You are indicating that RB feeds off the spunk of young men to maintain or increase his higher being. But if information from this blog is representative of the facts, most of them are conned into participating. Your justification, no doubt is that the higher feeds on the lower, and most of humanity has missed this secret.
This reminds me of a story about a woman I met who was born into a community of sexual deviants. Her family and their friends were paedophiles, and she was brought up, as were all her siblings and the children she knew, being sexually abused from babyhood by a variety of men and women, girls and boys including her mother and father. She started hearing voices, her first memory of them being aged about 3. Some were negative, others positive. She was diagnosed with schizophrenia. The amazing thing about her was that there was something in her, despite her upbringing, that knew that this way of life was not right, and as a child she watched programmes like ‘The Waltons’ and dreamed of living differently. She was tortured by the voices she was hearing, as well as the adults supposedly having her best interest at heart. She eventually managed to break away, though the peadophile ring didn’t make it easy and pursued her with horrifying threats. She is able to manage the hallucinations and is now settled with a family living a healthy life.
In response to a question asking what perspective this community of people had about their sexual practices compared to the ‘conventional’ socially acceptable ones, she said that they thought the rest of us were stupid and had missed something, laws about peadophilea were ridiculous, and that their way of doing things was the most enlightened and correct.
Once sex is taken out of the context of adult consentual agreement, it begins to enter other realms to do with manipulation and power. Rape and suchlike has nothing much to do with sex, and more to do with extreme forms of negativity based on power. This probably relates to some of the stuff touched on in an earlier posting about the “me” trying to justify itself, and may stem from a need to assert ones ‘identity’.
Perhaps something like that is going on with RB? Or maybe the lower cannot see the higher and we should all find ways to go on a spunk-fest to raise our levels of being!
Idiots One and All
March 17, 2007 at 6:23 pm
30 Year Vet Says:” “I’m grateful” seems like feminine dominance – in spiritual circles, it’s the “politically correct” thing to say. Would any of us do it again, knowing what we know now? Are you kidding!”
Of course I wouldn’t. The point is, I DIDN’T know then what I know now. They used to say in the FOF that your being attracts your life. So I needed a safe place, where “essence” could open up and “false personality” was not necessary. This was one of the things that impressed me the most when I first joined – the falseness that I so loathed about myself, my external act, my persona, my vanity, was just not supported, no energy was given to it, it was not responded to and it was free to fall away. A large load was taken off my chest. Of course eventually a different false personality grows and that one IS mutually reinforced, but that’s another matter. At least now I can recognize the pattern and see what’s happening.
I learned a lot from being exposed to all sorts of people of different ages, backgrounds and nationalities, that I would have never had a chance to meet and spend time with in my normal life. I gained a broader view of the world and became less limited to my known familiar environment that I had grown up with. I learned to dress, to speak in public, to lead groups, to make decisions, to recognize fine quality products. I became less fearful and more balanced. All things that ultimately had nothing to do with leading me to awakening, but are kind of cool on their own level. Why wouldn’t I be grateful for them?
As for the philosophy, I believe there are certain steps that can’t be skipped, and the FOF philosophy was what I needed and wanted to hear at the time. The only thing I can blame myself for is lingering too long after the philosophy had exhausted itself, because of the fear of changing the external realities of my life. I’m sure on an unconscious level, I was even attracted to this culture of exclusivity, because it fed a part of me that I would never admit loudly; the part that really did feel superior to everyone else, above life, and better from those people with only silly material pursuits.
Actually I observed that this was a test for prospective/new students: when they first heard ideas about how special the school is and how unique and chosen students are – did they identify with “us” and immediately resonated with being among the few, or did they identify with “life” from which they had barely emerged and were repulsed by the idea. I was discussing this once with an older student who felt that we are driving people away by telling them how this school is the only way. I told her that there was no problem, because when I first heard that I immediately identified with “us in here”, even before I was “in here”, and I joined. Those who are able to hear it will join. I did not realize the full repercussions of this statement at the time.
Anyway, what I’m able to hear today in terms of spiritual teaching, would have just gone in through one ear and out the other at the time I first joined. I’m quite sure of that. At that time I was a different person and I needed the FOF. There may be faster ways of maturing, but this was the one that was available at the time, so however broken and internally conflicted it is, it brought me to where I am today. And the naive little me learned about mind control and abuse in the process. Even for that I can be indirectly grateful.
PS: Of course, this approach only makes sense if you are grateful AND you leave. Not if you continue to justify the teaching as a source of friction.
March 17, 2007 at 7:23 pm
POST #168: What about “consciousness?” Are you frightened of losing “everything?” Consider this: Is it possible that the phenomenon called “self-remembering” is actually a form of auto-hypnosis? Is it a coincidence that Gurdjieff was a professional hypnotist before “discovering” the Ideas? Is it possible that the power that Sharon Gans or Alex Horn or the other ones has over you and so many others is based on your capacity to reach a semi-hypnotic state that they “teach” you in the first place? By considering these alternative explanations you may strengthen your resolve to get out as fast as you can.
_________________________________________
Wow. Wow, wow, wow. I’ve wondered about this – though I hadn’t put the pieces together quite so succinctly.
Especially with the Sequence, we are being driven more and more into a state which excludes considerations of anything outside the moment. That means the wife/husband who isn’t in the room “in the moment”; the children or elderly parents who aren’t “in the moment”; the world at large, with its manifold commitments and responsibilities. It excludes examining one’s past behavior, even from five minutes ago – or consideration of future responsibilities (the rent will become due again, the kids will need college tuition in a few years). “Being reliable,” Ouspensky’s hallmark of being, usually means over time. Building a house or getting married or going to grad school make no sense unless you have a commitment to a goal over time. And more and more I find our notion of “being present” excludes these considerations – even without the predictions that justified this thoughtlessness.
More and more, I find that people DO seem hypnotized into a pleasant peaceful state of heightened awareness that is, ultimately, very self-absorbed and selfish. But they’re “happy” in this state.
More and more, “the Sequence,” “being present” etc has seemed to me to a great tool, but a lousy master.
March 17, 2007 at 8:25 pm
Dear Kestrel, you say “But, I wonder if, in losing our negativity, we also lost any kind of … force … in our own life and in the lives of others.”
To my observation, controlling non-expressing practices plus intellectual explanations how one should or should not feel often produce cold and indifferent people full of concepts. It’s like poorly pruned tree – distorted and unhappy. Too many times I’ve heard students labeling compassion as feminine diminance, love and joy as identification and queens. Sometimes a genuine compassionate desire to help another being was judged by “older student” as feminine dominance, especially if the being in need was not a student. “They” have tramp and self-pity, and you are under feminine dominance if you feel anyhting for them… Cold, very cold. These are beautiful true momevents of our heart, and system’s cold intellectual labels cut them off like blossoming branches in clumsy pruning.
We are in our nature – compassionate loving consciousness, and in quiet moments we all know it. Most of the time we forget who we are, or dismiss it, and take ourselves to be the imaginary picture. When we finally realize who we truly are, most negativity and judgment (stuff based on imagined personality) gets somehow naturally replaced with compassion, understanding, friendly feelings and love. The responses to what’s happening in life become less personal and more appropriate, less intellectual and more immediate, natural. It is not just one fake learned smile to whatever happens – it could be any kind of response, whatever is appropriate in the moment.
This impersonal understanding and compassion becomes a main “force” in one’s life.
March 17, 2007 at 9:47 pm
#169 fofanatomy makes good points regarding Alexis’ question in part III post #99: “Have you experienced the transisiton of Third force becoming denying force, and how did you overcome or work with this shift in triads?” I’m not sure about the Man Number 5 part (out of my realm of experience), but otherwise I think I agree.
I would also recommend Traveler’s excellent post #179, particularly “Of course eventually a different false personality grows and that one IS mutually reinforced.”
This was similar to my own experience, where what at first I found so useful — true personality, work personality, however you name it — eventually came to represent its own opposite. It became the repository of oppressive, fearful, conformist, guilt-ridden aspects of myself — and that’s supposed to help me awaken?
You might ask how I know this “true personality” was really the one associated with these undesirable traits. It took me a long time to figure that out as well, primarily because this true personality (I’m speaking about what went on internally now) used the work language, enforced the exercises, insisted I stay in the school, dismissed real questions with pre-fabricated soundbite answers, and so on. It gradually dawned on me that the part of myself that was more “me,” for lack of a better word, was not this part. Rather, the truer part was the part asking the hard questions, looking for alternatives in my life, and eventually, realizing that staying in the school could only bring misery, while leaving could return me to myself, minus some of the baggage that Traveler wrote about so eloquently.
In short, what started out as true became hardened, fixed, false. It had all the right words, the right angles. Where it might stand in a triad would depend on what I was going after, I suppose. If I wanted to be unhappy, it may have been first force, my “self” would be denying force, and the school would be third force. So maybe the school was third force all along — it’s just the first and second that got swapped around.
That is my experience, though if I were in the FOF now, the change from a more 4th Way approach to the “sequence” might feel like the 3rd force of the school had become denying force. Hope this helps.
One more thing. Many people get their spiritual growth by working their way out of the guilt of the Catholic Church, or something similar. I grew up a Protestant, so I didn’t have anything like that to work against. So at some point I realized, well, I wasn’t a Catholic, but I was a FOF student. Sort of the same thing in the end. (I’ll refrain from making comparisons of the behavior of the “priests.”)
Too many excellent posts to mention in the last couple of days. The Sheik deserves another round of applause for all his efforts.
PS: If Cry Baby wants to go up for early release on good behavior, I’ll spring for his/her bail.
March 17, 2007 at 10:02 pm
I just arrived at this discussion yesterday, twenty-four years after leaving the FOF, and what struck me was how nothing has changed. In my time, I lived for a while at the Blake cottage, traveled with Robert, was propositioned by him (I said no thanks), physically stopped his attempts to use me for his pleasure anyway (it wasn’t that difficult — he’s not all that strong), and learned that virtually every young (and even not so young) man I knew in the FOF had had a similar experience (except for the saying no part). I found that my previously charming and ego-inflating relationship with Robert had evaporated overnight, and continued for a time as a student in various centers away from what was then Renaissance. I left along with many others after Sam Sanders blew the lid off Robert’s shenanigans, which had been until then known only to maybe two or three hundred people, although I didn’t leave because of Robert. I left because I’d learned what the FOF had to teach me, which was a very great deal.
The justifications offered by members for Robert’s serial sexual abuse haven’t changed a lick in over thirty years. Nor have their pathetic questions about the need to do anything about the fact that they continue to support it with their money. Let’s not mince words–Robert is a sociopath who has harmed hundreds of people for no reason whatsoever other than that he enjoys sex, and continues to do so. I haven’t the slightest objection to homosexuality, or to creative sexual activity of any sort between consenting adults, but for pity’s sake, let’s not go any further in even floating the possibility that what Robert has been doing for decades, since the very beginning of the FOF, is anything other than sexually abusing those who trust him more than they trust anyone else. He’s a very sick puppy. “Conscious being”? Oh, please. If I came up to you and said “I know this guy who for thirty-five years has spent virtually all of his time seeking to fulfill every single one of his sensual desires in the most bloated sort of way, the epitome of sensual greed, and has succeeded only because he has duped well-meaning but confused people into supposing he’s godlike, and I’d like to you meet him and give him lots of your money,” what would you say? Jee-sus! I mean, when is enough enough!?
The FOF was an utterly magical experience for me. The teachings (at least in those days) were extremely powerful, and I’ve continued to use them ever since, and expect I always will. Many, many members were among the most dedicated, intelligent, diligent folks I’ve ever met. Some of the “older students” (which at that time meant six or eight years) were quite impressive; I always learned something from being around Miles. Girard was always a second-stringer, even after being anointed; he’s where he is because everyone who had the right stuff had the sense and integrity to leave. Robert always had a good act–he didn’t get where he is through blind luck. But he was never truly impressive if one was willing to look beyond the hype. It’s a simple fact that everything in the teaching that was worth much came from someone other than Robert, and that the few items he tossed in — like predicting the future — have been proven absurd. He had run out of anything to say, or even a powerful new way to say something that needed repeating, even before I left, and filled his little journal with one-liners that were really rather elementary. Does self-remembering work? Damn straight it works, and so does zazen, vipassana, and dzogchen, if you can forget for a moment “getting” something out of them. Does imagining you are a part of an elite, based on the pronouncements of a man who was exposed as a fraud many years ago, who couldn’t prophecy his way out of a paper bag, aping the behavior of others you wrongly imagine are superior to you, denigrating everyone who isn’t a member, being obsessed with your “evolution,” and burying your conscience until you couldn’t care less what happens to anyone else in the world, whether it’s someone living on two cents a day in Burma or some poor guy with a visa problem holding Robert’s balls in his mouth, work? Well, does it?
March 17, 2007 at 10:03 pm
So many new names… Lovely! This blog, it seems, is important.
A comment on post 176
I will enlarge the subject to “exercises” or “tasks” the school provided now and then, with the premisse that I was fined twice for breaking the smoking exercise.
Can I state that, with the money my habit generated, I provided the necessary ressources for at least the acquisition of one palm tree, enhancing, hopefully, the general ladscape at Isis?
By the way, I could never look at one palm without thinking it was an ejaculating erected phallus!
When I joined the School, the sex exercise was “on” and I liked it (sort of guaranty for basic morality). For those who does not know, the practice was: no sexual activity out of the mariage form. In 1998, it was over.The form of the mariage got ridiculised.Then, I liked that too, till some extend.
The smoking exercise was also in the package. Yet, I was told that earlier days, it was very much “in” to smoke long, elegant cigarettes. Rich boxes filled with cigarettes of all brands would simply circulate around tables!
Ok, it’s over! Why ?
Till this day, I could never really get the point (except sacrifice and Robert’s dislike).
Could it be health ? Well No! How could that be considering the constant promotion of wine or other stronger alchools, well known for taking your forces away ? Now, since the 3 glasses exercise (still on ?), to stop drinking is more fashionable than the opposite, but believe me it was not always so…
I actually dicovered alchool in the FOF!
Read on this blog the many happy/nostalgic comments on “bottles”, “vino” meaning friendship, sharing and so on…
Once I invited a friend for a “petit déjeuner”, with “croissants”. When I asked “Cofee, tea ?” He answered “do you have red wine ?”
I got a bit allarmed… But not enough since I sat in front of a doctor for help with a possible alchool addiction some 10 years later!
For some exercise, each failure corresponds to a financial fine to be paid. So, I guess the sex exercise gave substancial regular source of income to the FOF…
The smoking exercise probably still do.
The spychological tool of imposing rules and having you touching them with your “being” could be quite a trip when investigated.
You fail, you tell the truth and you are “punished”, made clean with money, big hug and good luck with your addiction!
You fail, you lie, no declared need for a big hug, good luck with your addiction.
Your do not fail because you hide, good luck with your addiction!
You are a non smoker, you win. Big hug, good luck with your addictionssssssssss!
By any chance, are you a woman ? Because then, the skirt must be added! No fine though but simple eclusion, unless you wear one even on top a pair of trousers (!), from the gardens and any possible school event.
Believe it or not, I like rules as well as rituals (I truly believe we need them) and, I also belive we are mature enough to state them for ourselves. We know what is needed, appropriate and, we all have flavour for effort and things well done. There are a lot of people out there making efforts to stop smoking or drinking or watching porno… Why do they bother? Do they all have a RB ?
Obey, disobey, eventually, it does not matter, irrelevant, over, over! What matters is You.
As Gurdjieff said to one of this pupil:
everyone can stop smoking (she stopted under his demand for about 2 years), now take a cigarette!
When the flow is mainly forced/controled by external authority then, we enter a space of ‘obedience’ which seems very immature.
But it might be needed! Why not ? Are we still so far beyond the Father/Mother thing ? Again, it does not matter!
Play the game (the bad boy is still a role in the game)and wake up to the game! That’s it!
Jeronimous Bosch painted the last judgement. 3 panels. Hey? How come Paradise is as unconfortable as hell to look at ?
Watch your teeth when smiling… Even more carefully if tobacco stained them!
March 17, 2007 at 11:49 pm
My daughter was born and raised here, went to day care at the FOF Montesorri School and then through five grades with the same teacher. She benefited from this nourishing experience and I was grateful for it. She knew many children from other cultures and language was not a barrier for interaction at that age. There was a sincere attempt by the classroom teacher to teach them kindness and fairness. The down side came as they got a little older and imitated the ideas and opinions that they heard from their parents and other adults. As they began to selectively enter and experience Fellowship events they began to develope the same prejudices and beliefs of the adults. I am eternally grateful that my daughter saw and was not afraid to express what she correctly perceived even though she had many friends here, adults and children alike, that she cared for and had know for years. She frequently said that people were acting and were afraid to say what they were really thinking. She observed that students were posing and carefully smiling all the time for fear of being considered “negative” by others and that they were unable to share what was really in their hearts and minds. She appreciated the beauty of the surroundings and the refinement of the cultural events but she was strong enough to reject the pretense that was necessary to be accepted as a member of the community. Many children that were raised here have joined and sadly the parents are very proud. She, in many ways, was like the child who pointed out that the emperor had no clothes.
I am proud of her confidence in her own perceptions and incredibly grateful that she did not join.
On another subject I am still convinced that RB is ill and can not recognize it. I believe that the school has been a manifestation of his delusions about himself. The students close to him, if they are honest, probably secretly suspect it and it may be their biggest test to speak out. But if someone is a diabetic there is really no point in blaming them for not producing insulin. I don’t know what, if anything, can be done for RB but if there is something it will be the responsibility of those who remain.
March 17, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Forgot to add several valid option:
Exercises are there so you feel guided (dragged at times but never mind, you are never alone!)
Exercises help you connecting with the concept of “effort”.
Exercises (promotion as well as prohition) around sex, drugs and Rock are easy way to make money by speculating on your vices (FOF, Tabacco/Music industry and what not).
Exercises are given till eventually, they reveal themselves to you for what they are: useless.
Over! What matters is You!
March 17, 2007 at 11:56 pm
Dear Seekers
If you seek spiritual development, stay as far away as you can from “Fellowship of Friends”. It has nothing whatsover to do with an “Esoteric School”. Such a school does exist, but that’s not a place like FoF. Burton never had a real teacher. Alex Horn (His “teacher”) never had a real teacher. Burton’s book “Self-Remembering” is utter nonsense and is not at all in accord with the 4W teaching as presented by Gurdjieff. Burton is no Man no.5 – he’s a money-grubbing scam artist and a psychopath. I spent 8 years in a real 4W school and it’s as different from FoF as Day and Night. If you like, you can study with me.
begood@idseal.com
March 18, 2007 at 2:27 am
thank you for the post(167)inner jewels. Ratcheting up the scale is a fine way to “escape” our selfishness.
March 18, 2007 at 2:34 am
Listening to some music today, this seemed to relate to the discussion some of us have been having about negativity:
(Courtesy of Gary Moore)
Want you to hear me when I say
That the blues is back
And it’s here to stay
I wanna tell you a story
A story all about the blues
I want you to listen to me baby
While I sing it to you
Want you to hear me when I say
That the blues is back
And it’s here to stay
I used to have me somebody
She meant the whole world to me
But she left me for someone else
Left my heart in misery
But I knew on the day she left me
The blues was gonna be a part of me
She left me with the blues
It was the last thing I thought I could use
But I’m glad that she left me
Left me with the blues
If she hadn’t given me the blues
I wouldn’t have found someone so sweet as you
I say hey hey the blues is alright
Hey hey the blues is alright
I say hey hey the blues is alright
Hey hey the blues is alright
Alright alright, every day and night.
March 18, 2007 at 2:57 am
Benny (187): Can we really?
March 18, 2007 at 3:05 am
Dear Friends:
Alright, I’m back from my sand-dune perch of post 120. The tourists moved in quickly, and it feels SO good to be back here with you guys, away from the spiritual window-shoppers there. I’ll take you, or even just your noise, over their company any day of the week. For you guys have paid to play — and play you did, and it was no joke. 10, 20, 30 years is no joke. You are such special people, in or out of the FOF.
There have been some comments lately on the health of this blog – that it is failing, maybe in a nosedive, or, on the contrary, that it is rosy, robust, and really going somewhere. I’m feeling more the latter, at present. And as for nosedives: how much harder it is to recognize one when the horizon itself is in question, even disappearing off the monitor altogether for some. In time, more will be clear on the nature and fate of this conversation, and all that it is connected to, e.g. the nature and fate of the FOF itself, and of one’s own play in or out of it. That’s the great thing about time: an illusion in some sense, but it tends to slowly spell out the truth, ‘willy-nilly’, as the expression goes (“whether you wish it to or not”). At least it will do so for those who have the wherewithal to ‘be there’ and observe.
While I have openly refused to take sides, I do care deeply about this discussion. It was from early stages a big and clear smoking-gun. Something happened, the stakes and scale of which were and remain exceedingly high. And it is not even just about the FOF: in widening circles, the story relates much about mankind, its spiritual dimension playing out over the ages in the grand theater of earthly life. On the scale of the past century, it is clear to me that in many ways the FOF is a progeny of the 60’s, of the psychological, sexual and spiritual earthquake that took place then. To its credit, the FOF appears to have held together and held course in many ways that the general revolutionary and awakening forces of the 60’s did not. Perhaps the FOF’s discipline, its intense householder/form/steward emphasis was, in context, a necessary part of the formula by which it became a stable container. And what of the scandalous and apparently half-insane sexual substratum, just below the FOF’s sparkling Apollonian surface? There again, I see the long shadow of 60’s, in terms of the amoral chaos of Dionysian forces it unleashed. And ‘Dionysian’ does not just mean a few cups of wine and some earthy frolicking about. It is the force of nature, utterly impersonal, as merciless as it is sublime. I’m sorry, Happy Elves, Huggy Bears, and suburban Armchair Generals of Contemporary Spirituality: sooner or later you will need to S-T-R-E-T-C-H your worldview. And, while impressionable young Russian boys may sometimes have ‘tiny little hands,’ Influence C does not. So, get the vaseline and take it like a man. (**disclaimer: What I have just expressed symbolically should not be construed as an apology for Robert Burton the person, or as an attempt to ‘spin’ the question of accountability in his favor.)
The spiritual relevance of the FOF in the present is a profoundly interesting question. For some of you, the answer is a clear-cut yes or no. For others, it is still in a moment-to-moment process of consideration. Good luck to you all. And may your luck be proportional to your sincerity.
baleful.bedouin@gmail.com
March 18, 2007 at 4:21 am
Benny (187): There are no seekers on this blog, it’s just a bunch of people sorting out what they already found (excluding the curious) that is.
March 18, 2007 at 4:24 am
After reading Paul-183’s post, my first thought was to congratulate him for his unique courage to “say no thanks” and even “physically stop RB´s attempts to use him for his pleasure” but, since “it wasn’t that difficult — he’s not all that strong”, I´d rather congratulate him for his other brave act of calling RB a “very sick puppy”. Although, thinking twice, I might not congratulate Paul-183 at all. Instead, on reflexion of what happened to him, I’d like to share my compassion for Paul-183. Here´s why:
I know that when our sleep is disturbed (car blowing the horn, neighbor partying, partner snoaring, baby screaming, etc) we usually don´t like it, we complain and hold the situation responsible for our lack of rest. This seems normal.
What doesn’t seem normal is to continue complaining for a situation that disturbed our sleep 24 years ago! Unless that disturbance showed us such un unpleasant and hard-to-bear aspect of ourselves that we virtually lost our sleep since then. In which case, we should all feel a little compassion for Paul-183 who, probably after facing a terrible aspect of his inner reality, hasn´t slept a minute since he left the FoF 24 years ago.
And now I would sincerely wish to congratulate all these people who will continue giving their money wholeheartedly to RB until they, or he, die. This is a real brave act, to pay someone to disturb your sleep. But this can be done only if you really want to stay awake, if you desire it from the bottom of your heart, more than anything else in the world.
March 18, 2007 at 7:43 am
BBB:
I think you’re wanted back on the sand dune.
March 18, 2007 at 7:53 am
To “No Person” (#108) : I appreciate your sincerity, but you need not be concerned for me. I live a very rich and a very full life at Isis. I am one of those for whom the school works. I guess you could say I’m getting what I came for.
For me the school has delivered what it promised (self-remembering) from the first day I joined and has done so every day thereafter for 20+ years. It goes without saying that self-remembering does not just happen and that one needs to make efforts of a special kind in a school setting, but if one is willing to make those continual efforts a new world opens up.
And there are hundreds more like me, regular people with all the human frailties who are evolving day by day, moment by moment in the FOF (Robert too!).
These people are not brainwashed, don’t have their heads in the sand, are not in denial about Robert, and are not staying for fear of losing their friends (actually those who stay lose more friends than those who leave, as 2000 members are currently in and 12,000 have left).
No Person, I am tempted to respond in detail to your responses to post #75, but I gave myself the aim that if I did submit anything I would not get into a tit for tat cyber “tennis match”, where I serve a comment to someone else and they volley another comment back, and on and on. Not that I hold anything against those who engage in the intellectual sparring seen in many threads here, but there is enough of it that I don’t feel I need to contribute any more.
Ideally I would want to write what I had in mind as concisely and with as much articulation as I am capable of, and then let it stand alone for better or worse. I think a posting can be part of an ongoing thread but it can also be an independent thought and simply stand alone on “face value”. Generally speaking, if there were more posts like that there might be more reflecting going on and less “knee jerk” reactions to thoughts opposed to one’s own.
So if you or anyone else responds to this posting I will read it with interest, but everyone please: don’t feel slighted if I don’t respond with a direct answer or acknowledgment.
I think its safe to say that the majority of the comments on this board are critical of the FOF and/or Robert Burton. Therefore I don’t expect that a posting in support of the FOF or Robert will meet with a very favorable reception. I do believe there are a number of visitors who have not completely passed judgment on the school and, for them, perhaps, comments of this nature will resonate. I also believe there are those, some former members for whom the school did not work, who have invested a lot of time and energy into “proving” the school, or Robert, is not real, or not what it/he claims to be. For those individuals these words may seem particularly distasteful.
I am not the architect of the Grand Scheme and I don’t profess to know all the nuances involved in why some people connect with the school and others don’t.
Rita (#79), thank you for correcting the mis-attribution of the quote “What is Truth?” (#75). I wouldn’t want to attach anything false to it.
Regards to all. HC
March 18, 2007 at 9:17 am
to Kestrel #180
Maybe somebody call auto-hypnosys “self-remembering” or “awakening”. But true Self-remembering really exists. Somebody can think they have “higher state” after a glass of wine (and they would say honestly ‘I verified!’) But they made a mistake. It is not their fault. They just didn’t find somebody who could explain. If one is Self-remember one need no wine at all because it’s fun by itself, negative emotions disappeared. One is happy, knows why one lives and is ready to die just right now.
March 18, 2007 at 9:23 am
The Golden “fleece” (methinks Mr.Orwell’s spirit has returned)
I don’t know about all that stuff but sometimes when i rub up against certain states i get a chubby.
March 18, 2007 at 9:42 am
to You-me-us-they #186
One more option at least:
One can get awakened by using exercises correctly(even FOF exercises, doesn’t really matter).
It depends which part is using it. You described “false personality verifications”. Excuse me for candour.
One anticult site mentioned “word” excersise as a feature of a cult. A cult can use exercises but it doesn’t mean if a group uses exercises it’s a cult.
I’m not advocating the FOF. I would say Apollo-Isis is 99% cult; centers around the world are much less “culty”, perhaps 10%-50%.
March 18, 2007 at 10:59 am
“And it is not even just about the FOF; in widening circles, the story relates much about mankind, its spiritual dimension playing out over the ages in the grand theater of earthly life.”
Turning and turning in the widening gyre
the falcon cannot hear the falconer;
Things fall apart; the center cannot hold;
Mere anarchy is loosed upon the world,
The blood-dimmed tide is loosed, and everywhere
the ceremony of innocence is drowned;
The best lack all conviction, while the worst
Are full of passionate intensity.
Surely some revelation is at hand;
Surely the Second Coming is at hand;
The Second Coming! Hardly are those words out
When a vast image out of Spiritus Mundi
Troubles my sight; SOMEWHERE IN THE SANDS OF THE DESERT
A shape with lion body and the head of a man,
A gaze blank and pitiless as the sun,
Is moving its slow thighs, while all about it
reel shadows of indignant birds.
The darkness drops again; but now i know
That twenty centuries of stony sleep
Were vexed to nightmare by a rocking cradle, and what rough beast, its hour come round at last,
slouches toward Bethlehem to be born?
W.B.Yeats (1916)
March 18, 2007 at 12:14 pm
Paul (183): Terrific post, should be required reading for everybody in the FOF.
I left a few years before you did, was never propositioned by Robert, and didn’t know he was a sexual predator until a few years later, when I got the news of Samuel’s lawsuit. Looking back, I guess I should have figured it out. Once Linda Kaplan made a strange comment to me that Robert was “like a woman.” Maybe in her own weird way she was trying to warn me. Or maybe she thought I was already having sex with him and she was trying to explain his behavior. But that was the closest anybody came to saying anything. Lots of us would have benefited from knowing what he was up to. We would have left the school earlier and gotten on with our lives. Unfortunately, and to their great discredit, for the most part the people that knew, both the ones who stayed and the ones who left, kept their mouths shut.
Mark H
FOF student 1973-78
March 18, 2007 at 3:07 pm
My previous post (193) can be equally applied as a natural response to Mark H-200’s post, exactly in the same way it was used for Paul-183’s post.
Nevertheless, it seems that Mark H-200 hasn’t been able to sleep during 29 years after he left the FoF, while Paul-183 only during 24 years. So just a little bit more compassion to Mark please.
March 18, 2007 at 3:47 pm
Dear fofnatomy (198)
Maybe you just want to read the posts again (just in case you would:184/186)…
Its about You!
March 18, 2007 at 3:57 pm
January 18, 1954 “In the fourth way*, respect for sex and a positive attitude towards it are fundamentally necessary. Ouspensky insisted nothing negative, either in thought or emotion, should be allowed to touch it; that all higher development began with sexual NORMALITY”. Rodney Collin THE THEORY OF CONSCIOUS HARMONY
page 20 (manhood and womanhood).
I think Jesus the Christ, Buddha, Mohemed and all the rest would support Mr. Collin on that declaration
March 18, 2007 at 4:11 pm
I will share with you my experience of being a member for only six months. (2005 & 2006)
The town “Dobbins” is the town right next door to Oregon House where Fellowship of Friends is located “Isis” is what they call it. I am fifty two years old I grew up here in Dobbins, I moved back only four years ago. Being a local person I shocked everyone when I join.
FOF welcome me with open arms I only had problems with a handful of students. My husband was not a member because of health reasons.
I knew the past “keyperson” for FOF I asked him if my life would be in danger being a member he gave me the best advice. NO at no time would my life be in danger. I joined FOF because I fully understand their beliefs and YES I knew of the past that never bothered me. I judge no one in this life.
I could not afford to spend more than the $150 a month for my student payment being on disability myself.
If I could still afford to be a member I would be. I still get their monthly newsletter and I love reading them.
AS to the many SHOCKS I RECEIVED I COULD TELL YOU I GOT MORE THAN ANY OTHER STUDENT IN A SHORT TIME.
As to my beliefs I believe very strongly with their beliefs but one needs to “hold with presents” their own control of their own life’s to reach their sole.
If one goes into FOF for the right reasons your life as you control it will still be yours to control.
As to the past experiences some members have had I never once read anybody at FOF had a gun to their head at anytime.
In Friendship Always
Mary Battista
March 18, 2007 at 6:57 pm
Zorro (#193):
Glad you feel so satisfied with yourself.
I did not find Paul was “complaining.” That word, in particular, is the way FOF students are able to belittle the experience of others. If I recount how I was mugged 20 years ago, I am not “complaining” about it; I am merely recounting an event in my life. The fact that the experience was unpleasant does not make it “complaining.”
Similarly, you imply that Paul has been living and festering in these events for 24 years. There is no evidence to support that belief.
Try to remember that these are words on a screen. None of us “live” in them. We write the words, then we go on to do other things – eating, bowling, reading, whatever. Just because the words remain on the screen after we have left, it does not mean that we are “in” them.
Similarly, an earlier post, “Brainwashed Sheep” (#107)decried the “vicious venom” on the screen. I suspect it was in the mind of the reader. It was the only way Sheep could justify his/her extreme reaction to what was being written – the reaction was strong, therefore the posts must have been venomous. Otherwise, Sheep might have to consider the possibility that he/she was buffering, and in his/her queens. That it wasn’t the board’s “fault.”
Please, if you really aren’t brainwashed, try to do a little thinking.
March 18, 2007 at 7:00 pm
“If one is Self-remember one need no wine at all because it’s fun by itself, negative emotions disappeared. One is happy, knows why one lives and is ready to die just right now.”
Yes, that is what I mean in #180.
March 18, 2007 at 7:45 pm
Dear Howard, and all students who have faith: once it’s about faith – there is no criticizing or arguing. Religion is one’s own business, and it should be respected. After all, there is freedom of religion.
Your letter shows true faith and devotion, you seem to believe in things you express. It seems it is not about verifications of ideas for you, and it’s fine – in religion it is not about verifications, or observations or questioning. I was passing by the church looking at smiling happy people walking out after the prayer, all dressed up. It would be so absurd, silly and unnecessary to approach them and tell them that they believe in stories without verifying or questioning. They believe, they have right to believe, and they are happy with their beliefs. Their life has meaning.
The school (in case you haven’t noticed) has turned into religion quite some time ago. No more questions allowed at meetings, no more thinking, no more investigation, verification or personal observation. Ideas have been replaced with statements. It’s not about personal individual evolution anymore, in fact Kevin told me exactly that – it’s about doing what Robert tells us, and following him as a school, as a collective. Keep an eye-contact, attend the regular gatherings, listen to the mass, repeat the prayer, don’t ask questions. You like to call this – evolution – this is OK, I would call it religion. It has all atributes of a religion to me. When you say that there are “hundreds more like you” – well, there are millions of religious people on Earth, and it’s fine, they all follow their faith and don’t ask questions.
Some people are still sincerely interested in self-observation, thinking, asking questions, investigating and inquiring – for them this forum serves a purpose. Others are happy with their beliefs and rituals and ignore this blog as a “voice of the devil”, and this is fine as well. In fact, for them it is the devil.
It’s all about being HONEST WITH ONESELF. And for some it means honestly acknowledging their faith, and becoming stronger in it, and for some it means re-examining some concepts and becoming free of them. I don’t think anything could or should be done about it – it’s just how it is. All are right in their different ways, all have value.
I totally respect your faith and wish you happiness and meaningfull life with like-minded people.
March 18, 2007 at 8:05 pm
to Howard Carter #195
“…hundreds … regular people … who are evolving day by day, moment by moment in the FOF (Robert too!).
Dear HC, please verify the Circle Evolution theory: this people just goes around. It creates an illusion of movement. The Evolution means a man 1-2-3 evolves to man 4, man5, man6, man7. The FOF has delivered Nine Lifetime Theory in order to keep one inside and prevent one’s evolution. Did you become a man5 in 20+ years? OK, maybe old RB’s system didn’t work. Forget it. Now you have a Sequence. For how long you plan to use it in order to become a man5? Untill next-next-next lifetime? Why, are you so lazy? The Sequence has delivered 15 seconds of consciousness each time you use it. After this you have to start a new one. I think you’ve verified you cannot do it all day long. It means you’re going round and round never arriving to destination, never evolving, but experiencing some fluctuations of consciousness. People in the FOF are in constant position of unskilled beginners, “not-enough-efforts-makers”. And it is the very aim of the FOF and RB. He need somebody’s hanging around him. Everybody knows why. And his Saturnian mechanicality needs rings. And mostly what one can “evolve” is a dependence from “someone to disturb your sleep” and feels proud of it like Zorro #193.
And you don’t understand what is a meaning of your “(Robert too!)”. It really means blind lead a blind saying “We can see even more than last year!” Oh, excuse me, maybe I’m lacking an information. Does he proclame himself a man9 recently?
March 18, 2007 at 9:40 pm
30 Year Vet, post (165-66)
Prior to meeting the fof I was part of a Buddhist group (Nicheren Shoshu). They describe two types of karma, mutable and immutable. That which can be changed and that which cannot. The first, in western terms, is called the law of cause and effect. The second is called the law of fate. Fate contains those things that we cannot change, time of birth, country of birth, parents, children, etc. The big events in our lives. Cause and effect says that if you want different effects you must make different causes. And it is never too late for that. I don’t feel sorry for Miles or for you or for anyone that has been through the fof experience. I feel lucky to have gotten out when and how I did and to have had the experiences that have come after. People who have participated and supported that teaching and now find it to be false or criminal or whatever, might feel the need to find ways to make amends. Starting with not feeling sorry for themselves for a wasted life. It is only a wasted life if you give up now. Some one said “that which does not kill us only makes us stronger”. So gather strength from your experience and move on. It doesn’t matter if you are 35 , 55 or 75, you have a full life ahead of you starting now. By the way, how do you know those were the best years of your life? Maybe the best years are just beginning. There are many good people on this blog willing to share, help, encourage you and others who feel in need of a change and are afraid, discouraged and not sure where to turn. I am unwilling, to provide on this site, too many details of where my spiritual life has gone in these past 30 years, but if you wish to communicate with me directly I can share some of my experiences.
ps… that participation in the fof did not help to prepare you for the many contradictions that you are now facing should be a pretty good indicator that you need to make a change. But also remember that a flash of conscience, where we feel all of our emotional contradictions at once, is going to be painful, and it comes to all people inside or outside of spiritual work.
Transformation of that pain, (suffering), is the key.
keith.46@hotmail.com
March 18, 2007 at 10:30 pm
My post really was not about complaining; I shared a particular experience because it seemed pertinent to this discussion. Those who have known me over the past 24 years know that I haven’t made a practice of whining about it. Did it reveal some deep truth about myself to me? It did. Did I notice that my impulses in that circumstances were conflicted? Yes — another experience of the “many I’s.” Do I regret having had such an experience? No, I was interested in awakening then, as now. But to focus on how I’ve processed an experience seems to miss the point of greater interest to others reading these posts.
I’ve come to realize that the teachings used in the FOF, while very powerful when used correctly, are quite incomplete, and their utility therefore very limited. I know of no tradition grounded in absolute truth that does not emphasize the need for compassion and service, not as something done to “get consciousness” for the doer, but as an expression of the truth that consciousness carries with it the realization that compassion and service are critically important. The “second and third lines of work” are pathetic distortions of this, being limited to relationships with those who make teaching payments, and serving only the self-perpetuating form of the FOF, and always with the underlying assumption that you “perform” these “lines” so “you” can “get” something out of it–more consciousness, more being, more . . . something. This is part of the overwhelming spiritual materialism that keeps the FOF from manifesting truth, and, as it happens, being very effective for its members. The notion that Robert’s behavior may somehow be divorced from the value or effectiveness of the rest of the organization is a tragic rationalization (OK, “buffer” if you will), or just misperception. The FOF in all its many manifestations is like a tree with a root that is fundamentally unsound. My little story is just one of hundreds of similar ones that reveal this; a teacher who will abuse his students, knowingly and routinely, cannot create or maintain a healthy organization, and the simple fact that the members of the organization are unable to recognize this is the proof of it.
March 18, 2007 at 10:37 pm
Hey Zorro (193 & 201):
Because somebody recounts events of 24 or 29 years ago as a warning to others, that means that they “haven’t slept a minute” for all that time? Strange logic. Speaking for myself, I sleep great, especially now that I don’t follow RB’s admonition to deny my “machine” the sleep it needs.
The real question is: How do YOU sleep knowing the kind of teacher you have?
March 19, 2007 at 12:34 am
No Person: “I was passing by the church looking at smiling happy people walking out after the prayer, all dressed up. It would be so absurd, silly and unnecessary to approach them and tell them that they believe in stories without verifying or questioning. They believe, they have right to believe, and they are happy with their beliefs. Their life has meaning.”
No Person, how do you know what these people believe? How do you know what they have verified or questioned? How do you know that they are happy with their beliefs?
I really don’t think you know much about the essence of these religions, or their truths. It’s clear you have a lot of judgments of their practitioners.
March 19, 2007 at 1:36 am
one and all (post152)
The history was not a lesson for you but for those who may be contemplating joining or leaving. I don’t know what the current “rap” is at perspective student meetings but if I had been told that the teacher had been awakened by Leonardo, had 44 angels hovering around determining who gets in, who stays and who leaves, the the fof is the only real school, that it is the 2nd highest next to Christ’s, that the teacher is the second coming of Christ, that he is an active homosexual but bans homosexuality, that he thinks of himself as the god of prophecy, etc. ad nauseum; I might just have taken a little harder look. Don’t you think? I don’t begrudge my time there and I don’t blame the fof for what ever failings I may have had. I am not looking to bring the fof down or chastise those who stay. Those things just are not in the provenance of a blog. I am just trying to share some of the things that became obvious to me and others after we left.
no person (125) If there is no one in you then why all the long winded posts? Why would presence or awareness or the consciousness of all even care about this blog? Isn’t the concept of non-duality just another concept? (108) In an earlier post you said that you no longer have identification or imagination, which means that you are living in the now. But the repetitive nature of your posts indicates that you are now identified with a new concept. Were you this passionate about 4th way ideas in the beginning? Did you have this much emotional intensity? What you are talking about is perhaps metanoia, change of attitude, change of relationship and if it can be achieved spontaneously, where do I sign up? up.
March 19, 2007 at 5:47 am
No, Kestrel, I certainly don’t know what exactly people believe, and have no negative judgment about them, you may have misunderstood. I said that in the moment I saw happy looking beautiful people by the church – they were smiling, and it’s exactly NOT my business to question or ruin their beliefs, and present unwanted opposite opinion. The point was – if people believe – let them believe. There was no judgment in this. May be the point was unclear and it sounded like something else.
There are happy looking people in FOF for whom it all works. It’s great! They may belive in some things, and it is fine with me, I sincerely wish them well. It is nice when people feel satisfied, connected to something higher and experience happiness.
It is for those in doubt, who ask questions, who are not sure about their work anymore, who seem lost and uneasy – this forum may serve some purpose, or offer some help or hope.
You are absolutely right – I don’t know essence of religions and truths. I did practice islam for years, but still would never claim I know the truths of religion, or any truths for that matter. The reason I eventually left religion -there were too many unanswered questions. Once I aksed old imam after the prayer – why am I suppose to do things according to the scripture? He said – We don’t ask “why” – we pray.
It seems that sincere questions are not asked and answered in fof anymore, therefore to me it has a very familiar taste. Religion is not appealing to me, but it does to many, and it is fine, it is what it is. I guess it sounds offensive to an older student to hear the school beeing called “religion”, but – what would one call it at this point, honestly? Besides, isn’t it the inevitable fate of all schools to turn into religions, according to Gourgjieff? And who is to say that it is necessarily bad? If it is happening – it has it’s natural place to be, it serves some purpose. It may or may not work for one, so some end up staying and some move on, but no one is right or wrong in this, it’s just what is happening, what is appropriate.
March 19, 2007 at 7:05 am
My imaginary friend thinks you have serious problems.
Some people call it Schizophrenia some others call it teamwork.
March 19, 2007 at 7:19 am
As new as the images can “Be” an brilliant keying….everything finally leads you to Presence!
There is nothing beyond Presence the hard task is to have it!
March 19, 2007 at 7:35 am
Hello all!
Today I was clearing out my shelves and came across some materials I thought would be very appropriate to post on this blog, because they relate directly to what is happening in the FOF discussion and the minds of people involved in it.
This is from Mark Krueger, an American astrologist (and pasionate advocate of being your oun consciousness), who posts weekly articles on his website http://www.in2light.com. When I found him I was repelled by his americanisms and american humor at first, but once I understood his message I find it very clear and valuable. Here is what he had to say three years ago, on March 2004″
“IF YOU ARE NOT TRANSFORMING, YOU ARE FORMING TRANCE. What are you feeling anxious about? What do you feel you should be doing? Is anyone telling you that you shouldn’t be doing something? There’s a great deal of energy flowing into very tight boxes these days. It is the most explosive time. The mind is breaking down and then it has you try to prop it up. The end of the world is near or so it feels. So now what are you going to do?
How about letting your world as you have known it die? You can let all your projected past, that which you call your future, die. The result would be that you would be present. Would you like to be present? Would you like to be present all the time, effortlessly? That is what you are. You are your own consciousness, your own beingness, your own presence. Accept no substitutes. The endless struggle to be somebody, be it material or spiritual, is getting very old for you. You are feeling the deep do do do that you have been struggling for for so long. There is no end to the Wheel (he means karmic wheel). The mind foists THE END upon you to distruct you from the fact that there is no end to karma. However, you can clear your identification in the Dream. The Dream won’t end, but you can end your identification in it and then its game ends for you.”
And here is what Mark writes on his website today:
“Change happens. The shift is really hitting the fantastic. Notice how you can’t keep up with it all? It’s been that way for some time, but now it’s unavoidable. Some stuff you’ll just have to shed cuz you’ll never get there or that or whatever. There’s grief in this. Shed tears too if you like. With the archetype of The End in full process, all manner of things will be ending. On the Wheel there never is any actual end/beginning. But the Alpha dogs come out at Omega time with the Hopes, the New, the Future. I suggest that you be conscious with the cooking off of the old so that you’re not whip snapped into the new with a deeper trance than what you’re already suffering in.
There’s always the appearance of the New, the Shiny, The Way in the Dream. It’s like spraying Glade in the outhouse. You believe and are sold the notion that everything is fresh. What’s really going in is just added stink on top of stink. To paraphrase Apocalypse Now: I love the smell of Creation in the morning…… It all burns; it all revivifies. So what? Face the grind so that you don’t have to believe and enchant it anymore. You can be your self while the Dream spins. If you believe and enchant the Dream, nightmares will gallop from here on…
The Game is a projection. All of it. Soul, body, God, One, dharma, karma, planet, love, truth and the American Way. It’s all a movie. To keep making it more real and enchanting the beauty of it all with an attitude of gratitude will test the desperate projections of your faith, your hope and your lucky charms. You’ll get shredded in that. Then it’s hard to find your self. That’s the Game for you. Are you tired yet? Would you like to enjoy the delight, peace and freedom of your being all the time without effort or would you rather seek in the house of mirrors. It is your choice. That choice will soon be obscured by the smoke of smoldering karma and unfunhouse mirrors. Your projections, any and all of them, will get you more lost while you think they’re saving you. Waking up in enlightenment just adds some lucidity while you are still identified in the Dream. You were never asleep in the first place cuz you’re not in the Dream. You just took the blue or red pill once upon a time. Spit it out or forever go looking for your peace.”
March 19, 2007 at 7:57 am
Dear Students and non students alike,
Although I have not read nearly enough I think one of the questions that is worth exploring is how everything we have each attracted, including the Teacher, comes from our inability to externally consider in the big and small sense of the word.
Did all the little plays commented on here, not arise out of some kind of personal interest? What is really what went so wrong?
Was it the unconditional support that was and is given?
Did the Teacher not have the being to deal with it?
Are we all supposed to abandon the ship because there are tremendous human flows?
As I said, I’ve not read all but from what I read it still seems worth asking:
Is The Fellowship in crisis because all the Teacher tries to promote is self remembering and the non expression of negative emotions? Or because there is no external consideration, because the second line has never been seriously developed and the tendency to become a monarchy with a king and a very dubious court is rampant?
Did the ex students really leave because they couldn’t stand one man’s personal behavior? Or because they were suffocating in a school in which there are no objective guarantees for a community to develop? And, are we a community or a school? Does being in a school mean that we do not need definite guidelines for our interactions or are our interactions solely determined by the role the Teacher kindly or unkindly allows us to have?
If there were serious work on external consideration, (which, as I understand, is the other side of the coin of self remembering) would we have a different perception and understandings on Life as we call it? Is it not an interesting contradiction that we undermine life and all its values and yet all our efforts go into living in it and making money in it for a School in which there is no community life in the true sense of the word, no matter how many potager lunches, agoras, meetings, ballets, concerts or theaters we might attend or the endless array of auctions that we are asked to support?
Does our inability to develop the second line determine our lack of hope for life in every sense of the word?
Does the Teacher’s inability to externally consider, limit his capacity to develop his own complete system, a crystal in which the world can pour through, in all its greatness? The world, or rather the universe, not the little “world” that we seem to go on so much about and are so stuck in with thirty years of simple excercises for first and third line of work that consistently neglect the second line and all that it encompasses.Actually simple excercises disguised as the ultimate truth of every culture, school and human being who set foot on the planet?
Are we really being externally considered when we are not even addressed individually? When we are dealt with “en mass”, when we are given “little cookies” to soften the humiliation? When we establish a hierarchy of little and young men that treat the rest of the students as if they had won the spiritual lottery?
When we try not to listen to the suffering of those who have had to leave mostly because they were not really allowed to Be, no matter how much they supported the Fourth Way but perhaps not The teacher?
Have we all become so crystallized that we’ve forgotten the dream we once had when we joined the Fellowship, to not notice the ridiculous little club that we’ve ended up supporting, all dressed up like Barbies under the palms and trying to disguise our suffering with pure silk, with the perfect formula of: remember yourself and don’t express negative emotions in such a way that no matter how you are neglected you make sure you transform it wether you like it or not?
In thirty odd years, have there really not been any students worth their name that the Teacher continuous to be the sole commander in chief? That not even a handful have the possibility to speak and when they speak, speak only with unquestioned support not for the fourth way or any way at all but for a teacher whose made of our lives an ongoing auction? With the older students who do not madly support every little whim, being displaced for a few young men who have committed to the same unfortunate fate? And we allow it because they are over twenty one?
And is this really the school, community, ark that we would like our children to inherit? A place where only one man counts? Where no matter how much you remember yourself and try you are still after ten, twenty or thirty years your lower self who the teacher does not deign to address? Or when you get old enough and ugly enough, you’re asked not to attend his events because he can’t bear your ugliness? If when you question anything you’re told you’re under feminine dominance, a dominance he was never able to deal with or embrace because it sets the motion of human relationships just as that of the planets and stars?
Are we really to believe that consciousness runs so much beyond that there’s nothing we can understand with our common sense? That the Teacher is in “man number eight world” that we have no right to question? That everything is allowed for such a man?
Is the unquestionable support of a man, for such a man, not to be questioned? Specially a man that was unquestionably supported from the beginning and is then easily abandoned, because of his also very questionable behavior?
Was the Fellowship doomed from the moment it asked children to be abandoned somewhere, somehow, because it was unable to fit the work in life and has now had to fit the teacher’s life in everybody’s work? With the lower serving the higher instead of the higher serving the lower? With students having to transform the teacher rather than the teacher, the students? Creating an ever increasing gap between every body’s actual life and the Fellowship?
And have we not grown enough, remembered ourselves enough, separated enough, to not understand that the only thing that really matters is that we assume responsibility for the play we allowed to roll down our street? Do we, after all these years, have the being to take responsibility for ourselves and everybody around us? The old and the young? and live a life? Or are we simply going to continue living somebody else’s life and neglecting our own? And closing our eyes every time somebody leaves or is asked to leave who we never really met or cared for because he wasn’t the type we liked? Or simply avoiding the issues by not going to anything but allowing for it all to continue while we close our eyes to the fact that we are supporting it all.
Is it really that impossible to simply sit down and talk? Just listen to each other say what we have to say and let it be?
And yes, there are exceptions. Each one of us is an exception; each one of us worked and hoped and dreamt and some continue to work and hope and dream but the bulk of us are pretty ashamed and frustrated and have never had the chance to say anything to anyone or be acknowledge as a simple, worthy human being. The motto is, “keep paying and shut up”. It is not nearly as pretty as it looks and we might as well take our clothes off and look at ourselves without the uniform of beauty and still, embrace what we see. We’ll feel much better completely undressed.
March 19, 2007 at 8:00 am
In honor of St. Paddy’s day (OK, I’m late, the day after St. Paddy’s day), I present you with the following account of Gurdjieff’s big secret: that he was really Irish. Some of you may be familiar with this already, but for those who are not, here ’tis.
WAS GURDJIEFF REALLY IRISH?
Last night a friend lent me an advance copy of a book that is supposed to be published this August in Chicago by Dharma Bums Publishing. It’s called Unmistakably Ben Bulben: the Fourth Way in Ireland and it makes some pretty wild claims. The first part of the book tries to prove that Gurdjieff is really an Irishman by the name of Michael Kiely, from Limerick, who left Ireland at the age of 16 rather than work on the family farm. It also states that Ouspensky left Gurdjieff because he found out the truth, although he never mentioned it for fear of damaging the Work itself.
Apparently, near the end of Ouspensky’s life he told the whole story to one of his students who then told it to Larry O’Nolan, the author of this book. O’Nolan checked what sources he could and then gathered whatever related to both Ireland and the Fourth Way to fill out the book.
He makes much of the episode in In Search of the Miraculous in which Ouspensky meets Gurdjieff’s father and sees a photo of the young Gurdjieff. Ouspensky says that the photo reveals something about the profession Gurdjieff practiced at the time, but Ouspensky decides to keep this to himself. O’Nolan says that Gurdjieff’s Irish origin explains this mystery. O’Nolan produces what he claims is the photo. It shows a young man standing near a horse-drawn cart. The man looks exactly like Gurdjieff with a full head of hair. His very relaxed and strong arm rests on the horse’s neck, and the cart is piled high with peat. In the background is, unmistakably, Ben Bulben.
The man identified as Gurdjieff’s father was in reality his first Sufi teacher. O’Nolan heard the story of Gurdjieff’s flight from Ireland from an old relative still living in the countryside near Limerick. There were three sons born to this farming family: John, James, and Michael (later known as Gurdjieff). One night the father pronounced the destiny of the three boys: John would go to school and become a priest, James was already working at his trade of cabinet maker, and “Michael,” he said, “you shall tend the farm.” The next day the boy was gone. After many travels he ended up in the east where he encountered Sufi and other influences, and the rest is history. (In case you were wondering, John got stuck tending the farm.)
The book goes on to talk about the success and failure of various fourth-way groups, mainly in Dublin. He gives one anecdote I’d never heard – that Gurdjieff sent Orage into Dublin to start a group but then recalled him after a month, saying that he was afraid that Orage would “dissolve” in Dublin.
The book points out Gurdjieff’s Irish traits: his garrulous manner, his love of drink, of long stories and anecdotes, of practical jokes and word play. The book ends by pointing out that Gurdjieff (as Gurdjieff) never set foot in Ireland and always avoided his Irish students for fear of giving himself away.
March 19, 2007 at 8:12 am
If you think you are awake you are asleep, if you think you are asleep you are asleep. If you are asleep and paying someone to disturb your sleep you are retarded. If you are awake and paying someone to disturb your sleep you must be dreaming…and retarded.
“Rose, oh pure contradiction, desire to be no one’s sleep under so many lids” especially Zorro’s
March 19, 2007 at 2:03 pm
The only regret I have (but not really) in the sense of lost opportunity that I had in the school, lies in that I never bought into RB’s teaching fully or, as they say, I didn’t ‘submit my will’ to the teacher. If I would have lost my capacity for critical thinking, followed exercises and became a ‘complete idiot’, the kick that I would have got out of disillusionment, could be much stronger.
If you are so messed up in your life and in your mind that you need someone to tell you what to do about it, you’re set up to get a beating into your senses. Religion used to play this role, now – psychology and various teachings made available in the last century for the Westerners. Methods used could be more or less useful for this purpose.
4th way, as it was presented by Gurjieff, intended to bring a person to conflict within himself by setting intentionally nonsensical contradictions, where the way out would be only possible by reconciliation with life as it is and one’s self as one is and finding ‘normality’ and human set of values to be of great importance. In that way a person could be considered ‘being born again’ into a life with much appreciation and love for its simple truths. After all, they are not that simple if it takes so much suffering to get back to them.
The effect of setting unbearable contradictions for the mind and conscience intended to push one out of delusional search for something which one is not (like ‘conscious being’) into realization that one’s consciousness is actually has always been fine in what it is – awareness of one’s self and the environment. Finding the glasses exactly where one’s left them – on one’s nose, a seeker experiencing great relief and laughs about his stupidity and delusion. He might get angry with the teacher for bringing him to do so many unnecessary things and ‘taking him for a ride’, or (and) with himself for letting someone to fleece him so mercilessly. In the end, one has to realize that his need to be told who he is has brought about a predator who has taken away the desire to be something who one is not (like superhuman) and illusion of that life as it is doesn’t have value or meaning. As they say in Russia: ‘I will teach you how to love life!’
It is a natural reaction after this realization to turn back in order to destroy the idol one has created and to show others the illusion of it. There might be a need to create one’s own group and start teaching. It’s done by ALL teachers, including RB. I view his need to be a teacher of ‘love’ to be a result of him being in a ‘denial’ group of Alex Horn. However, his good intention and the ideal he created was soon corrupted, notwithstanding the amount of willing participants to give all they have to a man who couldn’t meet up the demand for a teacher not to take advantage of vulnerability of his pupils. So, corruption began and continues to this day. We could argue whether RB is a ‘conscious being’ or not. To me it’s secondary to the role he plays as a catalyst for my own disillusionment, but I don’t think he knows what he is doing, judging by the fact that he’s attracted so many long-term followers who are unable to break up from the need of his support and so many who have been damaged by what he has done ‘in the name of Love’.
Also, the ineffectiveness of his methods is shown by those, who, after realizing the illusion he’d created and broke free from it, are still in need of being taught and forming rebounds with other teachings, groups etc.
So, what do you do with your newly–born freedom? To me, the most pressing need is to re-establish my connection with life. First thing first: I must find the ways of sorting my financial life, it was something I didn’t consider that important, concentrating on ‘being in the moment’ and being high on ‘higher states’. It’s lucky that I am still relatively young and energetic, so there might be a possibility for me to do that. I see how difficult it can be for someone who spent all their life at Isis and now approaching time of life where it becomes next to impossible. If one loses the chance of disillusionment through seeing BS for what it is and keeps ‘living with contradictions’ instead of choosing one’s own way, one might be at risk of loosing the opportunity to exercise common sense and conscience in this lifetime. There might be another lifetime, but I would lie if I said I knew anything about it.
Thank you, ‘George Orwell’/‘Wizard of Iz’ for inspiring me to write this post.
March 19, 2007 at 2:29 pm
At a number of points in the evolution of this blog, various pundits have either declared it is in an interval or have forecast its imminent demise. I never quite saw what they did, but I am wondering if it is possible for this blog to shift, or at least widen, its focus a bit. This is not a demand, just an observation of a possibility. It has wonderfully served, and hopefully will continue to serve, the function of letting those current students of the FOF who think there is something critically off with the school but who have no substantive communication with the world outside, know that they are not nuts, they are not wrong, they are not failures and they are not alone. Those that are trying to find their way out of the FOF are not, however, the only ones in need of open communication. In seeing the responses to Howard Carter’s letters I have to wonder if the compassion many feel is not being rather artificially extended only to those who have proven themselves worthy by denouncing the FOF. For whatever reason, he looks into the darkened crypt of the FOF and sees “wonderful things”. His remark about RP was not necessary, to be sure (though compared to Ms. America’s vile attack, almost a love sonnet), otherwise his letters have been reasonable and his refusal to bicker shows a level of emotional maturity that many lack.
Some FOF students may believe that people outside of the FOF cannot understand them because “life” does not know it is mechanical, asleep, does not combat the lower self, does not have a connection to higher forces etc…By now even those with no relation to the FOF know the catechism. But what of those who genuinely feel they are still gaining from the catechism? There are those who have realized that the beads on their rosaries are not pearls, but that somehow, they still assist their prayers. Is this possibility inadmissible? Anyone who allows themselves the attitude that all FOF students are hypnotized, are incapable of seeing other viewpoints and are just reciting things with no verification are quite classically pointing the finger at themselves. Does Howard Carter think he is right? Yes. Does No Person? Of course. Even that square idiot, Joe Average, thinks he is right and he wouldn’t recognize enlightenment if it bit him on the pineal gland.
An unfortunate reality of the form of evolution as students in the FOF experience it, is that critical reasoning and impartial debate are very definitely discouraged. One effect of that is the difficulty FOF students who have sincerely tried to follow the aims of their teacher for many years have in trying to resurrect this atrophied art of open discourse. I know this will sound condescending to some, but several of the letters that attempt to be supportive of the FOF have given me the impression of owls blinking into an unaccustomed brightness, a little unstable on their talons, but trying nonetheless.
Is the path of the FOF essentially incompatible with free speech and open debate? Possibly, but don’t write the epitaph just yet. If every owl that blinks on this blog gets barraged with one-sided attempts to lighten the perceived load of illusion, not many more will come. The blog and the FOF will be poorer places for that. This does not mean giving patently false statements (like “nobody knew about RB’s sex before”) a free ride. It means understanding that a purely logical approach to the concept of verification without admitting fragile and fleeting emotional experiences which are difficult to defend, quantify or communicate, is a closed box. A good way to let more light into the crypt is to allow for the possibility that, just maybe, some people are profiting from the FOF in a dimension other than in retrospect.
March 19, 2007 at 3:36 pm
Still observing fingers pointing to the finger…
The tide goes up and down and the many puppet ‘I’s full of ‘Me’, ‘You’, ‘Him’, ‘One’ turn dancing around the rock on the beach of sleep.
Student, endure being What Observe!
How Glorious!
March 19, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Clara (218),
I did not understand 100% of what you were trying to convey. To what I understood though, my response was, Amen. Thank you.
regards
john
March 19, 2007 at 4:30 pm
Dear Clara (post 218)
Thank you for having the courage to speak.
March 19, 2007 at 4:32 pm
Beautifully said Clara. Thank you.
March 19, 2007 at 4:35 pm
To all the people who have been reading this blog I can ensure you that 99% of the membership knew the past history of FOF. That’s a FACT, that’s the TRUTH!
From the first Prospective Student meeting I attended to my last “keys” meeting I had always been approached by either older students or newer ones asking my thoughts of the history of FOF. How could I being a local person join FOF. My answer never vary, I always said I was there for “self remembering” and to be present.
I will also inform you that FOF will survive this and this blog WILL INDEED BRING NEW membership to FOF. Why do I know this “HISTORY” always repeats its self. Ever since the internet was made posible you could do a search under FOF and find out the history. It was never buried it was always there for all to see it. It’s even been published in books.
Center Directors for FOF are there for EVERY student. Use them please!!!!!!!!
In Friendship Always
Mary Battista (ex-member of FOF)
marys_angels@peoplepc.com
March 19, 2007 at 4:58 pm
What the hell? Are you arbitrarily censoring comments? It’s starting to appear similar to the FOF.
March 19, 2007 at 6:02 pm
Mary Battista (227): I believe that the FoF is currently losing more members than it is gaining, correct me if I am wrong.
Bruce Levy (228): I seem to remember deleting your comment this morning. No obscenities, please.
March 19, 2007 at 6:30 pm
Dear Elena and others…THANK YOU.
Tears are flowing incessantly…
I am grateful to see the beauty in the sky
The hawks are flying for you and I
In or Out…?
The wrinkles on an 80 year old person
The beautiful backs of the men and women, in the age of “old”, above 70, 80, 90
Their smiles, their wisdom often in not saying too much after all these years…
They know what silence is and they can sit with it…
I wish I could sit with my sadness and not touch it just let it be…
I am now…
Also that sadness pushes on my chest…
Please let me be with my pain, just sit with me and do not use too many words… like the elder…just sit with me, look me in the eyes and accept me in this now moment..
There are no pills or ointment now or anything to take my pain and tears away…. time and grace will do it and I know as always this too is a beginning…
Please do not change me
Or wish me different, stttt
May your silent intention be the best medicine now
Once you will be old too and that might be uncomfortable to think of…
Ask your self this question; How did your parents become old, how did they live, how did they die….
Something to ponder about?
For all our blog friends who say it is easy to leave… they must be in a different FOF then me?
Leaving is like a piece, a part of me, that I am leaving behind and it is what is needed and after it is done a new (empty?) space will come and it will feel good…?
O, that jump into the unknown as I sit here with tears flowing and flowing
And I am proud and proud of having tears and I show them if you can bear them… they are my tears…
If it is not difficult for you, good for you…
I show my tears in silence till it is over and when you will see my tears do not talk to me about being different… or if you want to see my anger go for it and I show you my proud anger and that too will pass… I might even blame you and also that will pass
I might show you my overwhelming, proudly and my irritation and frustration… with love and if you can still stand to be with me I show you my hopelessness and if you have not run away through my tears I might look up and see the sky, one of many signatures of God… one of the signature of what is now and if you did not run away… we might look in each others eyes and know there is no In and Out only another illusion to give up.
And if you are still there, I wil tell you a secret that all the old people I have met and seen their beautiful bodies know that living is giving up illusions…
Maybe it is better for you not to tell me much… you will get a load of emotions… which might be to painful for this society …
My tears have dried… these words just feel good….
I know I might have scared you…are you still with me?
Still gratefull and hope to greet you at the post office with love
And if you can not look me in the eyes… may I accept that too
March 19, 2007 at 6:48 pm
Dear Clara (218)
Bravo !!
When you get the ‘Call’, we’re with you.
Lothlorien
March 19, 2007 at 6:56 pm
Mary, you seem to be fairly free at throwing “facts” around so easily. Do you remember the system ideas about lieing, whether intentional or in sleep, and about appearing “to know”? For your statements to not be lies you would have had to interview all the members. I think your posts tend to play fast and loose.
March 19, 2007 at 6:59 pm
To # 218
Thank you dear Clara Elena Gutierrez.
Your post is very insightfull and honest about “how things are”. So much for those thinking this blog was on a descending line.
The thinking and expressions happening here appear like an awakening compared to the verbiage going on in the present teaching of the FOF. It is like reconquering the ability to use our minds and the best of what is called wit.
I challenge the council members, who are most certainly reading all this, to simply answer with equal honesty your questionings.
As long as the FOF will try to hide and lie, it’s decay will continue.
So long,
The Captain,
March 19, 2007 at 7:06 pm
I applaud you, Clara, for the risk you have taken in articulating your thoughts – so beautifully – as yourself. You have expressed my own thoughts for me. Whatever the consequences for you, you have support and friends.
March 19, 2007 at 7:14 pm
I was thinking today about the idea of a ‘dead man’ without conscience being stronger than ‘alive’ man who is vulnerable because he still has it.
One way one can loose his conscience (unless one is brain damaged through an accident like a car crush) lies in a casual practicing of something which is initially one perceives as ‘wrong’. For example, if one knows that it’s wrong to steal but still does it out of the need to get adrenalin rush, then over time one loses touch with ‘that little voice inside’ and practices theft casually without a second thought. It becomes a habit and it might take one to jail before one sees one’s action as ‘wrong’ again.
Feeding one’s desire for power and money has the same effect as feeding one’s sex appetite at the expense of others (meaning using them as human toilets for what Gurjieff described as elimination of 3rd shit: by-product of sexual imagination). When one becomes addicted to getting kicks from deviant sex, it usually disintegrates into increasingly destructive pattern which is well illustrated in Pasolini’s ‘100 days of Sodom’, and which eventually brings about violent ways to satisfy one’s ever-growing libido.
Conscience, which is given to humans at birth together with consciousness, is as natural as breathing. What brings about its death (which results in a death of one’s humanity) is a practice of satisfying one’s desire for pleasures at someone else’s expence and formation of dependency and addiction.
Recognizing this tendency might bring conscience back to life and that’s called ‘redemption’ in religion (reminds me of my favourite Bob Marley’s song:
‘Emancipate yourself from mental slavery/
No one else can free your mind../
Redemption song, the song of freedom…)
To be free from the need to get kicks of any kind is a natural (although increasingly rare) way of being human. Redemption can be a very painful realization when one sees the harm one has inflicted upon one’s self and others, but there’s a possibility of freedom from the dependency. Pain is the reason why so few dare to look at themselves critically.
Common morality is a uniformed description of what’s natural to us as human beings. Rebellion against it can be useful at a certain stage of one’s life, but eventually one comes to accept it for what it is: ‘do not do anything to the other person which you don’t want for yourself’. That is if one is not self-destructive, of course.
Vulnerability of having one’s conscience alive lies in that one can (and usually does) come across a ‘dead man’ without conscience and falls victim to his predatory needs, naively assuming that conscience is something that everyone possesses. Being hurt through that experience, one learns to take a better care of one’s self and to trust his sense of judgement of people by looking at their deeds, however highly esteemed they might appear to be.
March 19, 2007 at 7:44 pm
Thank you, Laughing, for your posting from Mark Krueger. It was truly enjoyed.
Dear Keith, you’ve asked many questions. If I say that I actually don’t know why my posts are written, you’ll probably laugh. Well, I honestly don’t know… I don’t know why these thoughts come, in fact it looks like I cannot choose or predict the very next thought… Can you choose your exact next thoughts? Does anyone know their very next thought? Strange, isn’t it.. No one knows the very next thought, yet we are sure it’s our own…
If I say that I do not feel identified the way it was felt in the past – you may not believe me. Why would you, and why would it matter anyway? In fact it is not important at all. Appearances stay appearances, and what changes – is one’s internal landscape, or perspective, or one’s identity. It feels like there is no more solid “person” inside like it used to be. It feels that there is just “looking out”, but no one who looks. Does it make sense? Things are not taken as personally and are not emotionally hurting in a way they used to. But passion, queens – all externally continues the same, the character in the play stays externally the same. It’s like now there is a certain definite gut knowing that it’s a play, appearance, and what I am is what watching it, not what is seen.
Unfortunately whatever is expressed in words turns into a concept on paper or screen. How can one accurately convey a vision, or an understanding in written words? Put it in words and it gets obscured. Add some passion to it – and it’s over, it evokes judgment. I wish I can write beautiful poetry.
There is a true joy in sharing of something that have brought so much relief and freedom to my life, and other friends lives. It’s not trying to persuade, although it certainly may look so due to natural “passion” (Martial, queen…). It is just the way this machine expresses things – with passion, using gestures, in length, kind of black and white… But really, it’s more like spreading the good news for those who need them. I hope one could see beyond the way it is expressed, or by whom it is expressed, and actually get to the honest own self-inquiry to see what really IS in front of them, and may be discover for themselves who/what they really are and be free from illusion. It is not intellectual, or a bunch of new ideas – it’s quite the opposite. It’s about honest immediate simple looking in the present moment, not using mind concepts or comparing ideas.
By the way, I don’t think I said that there is no imagination anymore. No, imagination actually occurs, but it just doesn’t overwhelm, it passes harmlessly, like a transparent cloud, and one doesn’t get “lost” in for hours it like before. But it does occur, it seem to be a natural thing. When nothing inside fights it, it seem to be a harmless passing thing, and awareness is not diminished or obscured by it.
As for living in the now – we all are living in the now, you, me, everyone. There is no other place ot time to live in. It is very simple. Our minds are telling us that we are in the past or future, that we have problems and worries, but these are – only thoughts, in fact they are not even “ours”, no one chooses them. Right NOW – what are the problems? Where is the future? The mind comes and says “Yea, right!” – and what is it? Another thought. Consciousness is aware of it all. It all is happening in the now. There is no need to sighn up to see this or to follow anything or anyone, it’s too simple, so simple – it’s overlooked. The very following and studying is what complicates it and prevents one from simply stopping and seeing who we are already.
But if you wish to come and share some thoughts with friends -please come to our place on April 7-8, you are welcome. We’ll have a nice talk with J. Wheeler here as our guest. Looks like there will be quite a beautiful group of people, mostly our good old friends from fof. Let us know if you want to come, so we can prepare enough food for everyone.
malaec@yahoo.com
March 19, 2007 at 8:05 pm
No person
For you this blog is a religion. You worship the blog and you cannot do without it. Your prayers are also long and tedious and you repeat yourself over and over. What will happen if you stop posting for few days and take a small break.
No-Person says that she does not need self-remembering, the sequence or anything of the sort because she is already awake.
The blind EX-FOF-Bloggers-CULT will not correct or comment about No-Person fantasies. Like sheep, as long as you condemn the FOF/RB you are entitled to lie, and even create your own fantasy system.
Vena
Where is your daughter now, and what does she have to say about the phonies in life, I wonder.
The Esoteric Sheik
The only way for you to know and understand the Fellowship is by JOINING and to stay for few years. Are you afraid to JOIN?
March 19, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Dear Elena, thank you for your sincerity, your post is beautiful. Dear Another Name, I was deeply touched by your words, wish I could hug you right now.
And thanks again, Sheik for making it happen and letting all this be expressed so beautifully. This blog seems to connect and bring together, not divide.
March 19, 2007 at 8:46 pm
In this discussion group, at least a few people have mentioned the 10% payments that are required to remain in the Fellowship of Friends. However, it’s important to note that the actual amount that you contribute is much higher than 10%. If you are a “regular” member, here’s how it works:
— Each month, you contribute 10% of your gross income, i.e., 10% of the amount that you earn before taxes are taken out.
— You also contribute a “special donation” of $255 each month.
— Twice a year, Spring and Fall, you must contribute additional amounts of $775, or a total of $1,550.
— In December, you contribute an additional $100.
For example, if your gross salary is $50,000 per year. you will pay:
$5,000 for the 10% monthly payments
3,060 for the monthly special donations
1,550 for the Spring and Fall donations
___100 for the December donation
$9,710 total
So with a salary of $50,000 per year, the actual amount that you pay is not 10% of your salary, but 19.42%.
Since approximately 30% of your gross income is taken out of your paycheck by the state and federal governments, you are left with $35,000 per year in gross income. Subtract the $9,710 that you donate to the Fellowship, and you are left with $25,290 per year, or $2,108 per month to pay rent, buy food, pay your bills, buy clothes, etc.
Tax write-offs are helpful, because over the course of the year you can essentially add another $200 per month to your available income assuming the above salary.
However, it’s good to remember that you must also pay to attend various large gatherings at the Isis property. This includes meetings, receptions, dinners, fund-raising auctions, raffles, and artistic performances. So to be an “active” member of the Fellowship who actually participates in the events and interacts with your fellow students at large gatherings, you need to pay even more than the standard donations mentioned above. These amounts can run into the hundreds of dollars per month if you truly wish to remain active.
Needless to say, making just $50,000 per year is not enough to remain in the school and keep your finances healthy — let alone make a trip to Egypt. What often occurs is that members end up using their credit cards for many of the above payments, and therefore build huge debts. Someone once said the credit card companies “are in the business of separating you from your money.” This is one way they can accomplish that — by accepting large transactions with religious organizations such as the Fellowship.
By the way, if you’re making $100,000 a year, here are the totals:
$10,000 for the 10% monthly payments
3,060 for the monthly special donations
1,550 for the Spring and Fall donation
___ 100 for the December donation
$14,710 total (or 14.7% of your income)
So this leaves you with about $50,000 per year to pay your bills, or over $4,000 per month. So obviously as you make more money, the easier it is to remain in the Fellowship. But contributing to your 401k account for long-term security? Even at $100,000 per year, a person needs to reduce or eliminate their 401k contribution, or use their credit cards if they wish to participate in the dinners, auctions, fundraisers, lotteries, and so on. Of course, having a large bank account to begin with will help, but tapping into your savings to remain in the Fellowship has its long-term consequences even for those who are making six figures.
The Fellowship does occasionally help people who are having trouble by reducing their payments on a temporary basis. And if you are a member of the Fellowship who falls into a certain “category,” your payments may be reduced. This includes married mothers, single parents (only one parent is eligible), disabled students, unemployed members, and full-time college students, etc.
Anyone is welcome to critique the math above… But the point is, it’s a considerable sum, and we often don’t think about the consequences of these large payments. I sense that this topic is very uncomfortable for members to discuss. It usually begins and ends with the Gurdjieff quotation related to our attitude about money. But this is one of the central issues of this entire blog – the amount of money that members are contributing to the Fellowship and the buffers that are connected to this topic.
March 19, 2007 at 8:51 pm
Some aspects of the FOF are undeniably good and I have benefited and continue to benefit. I love simple presence and I guess we all have ways to call it up whether with divided attention or the sequence. But that does not alter my opinion that some aspects of the FOF need to change.
Change is always slow because we buffer. We explain away what needs to be changed. We all do it every day.
Cognitive dissonance (from Wikibedia) is a psychological term which describes the uncomfortable tension that comes from holding two conflicting thoughts at the same time. More precisely, it is the perception of incompatibility between two attitudes, emotions, beliefs or behaviors.
We all have a great deal of cognitive dissonance. For some this blog creates dissonance to the point where they have difficulty reading the entries. For others it relieves some of their dissonance to see that others think as they do.
I appreciate some of the standards of human interaction that are largely the result of RB. An environment of order, beauty and intentionality are naturally a part of most fellowship homes and events and this is uplifting. Inner considering, self promotion and the effort to impress are easily detected both in ourselves and in others and are mostly treated with compassion since we all do it from time to time. Not interrupting and having one conversation at the dinner table have become for the most part a way of life. An appreciation and ease with silence are second nature to most students and we have learned something about art appreciation and how to digest and transform beauty. Effort is not something to be afraid of. Isis is a beautiful place with many intelligent and well meaning, hard working people and I always feel loved when I go there and finally the sequence and our meetings do improve our state.
Current or former student, we all have dissonance that is created by the FOF. To remain in the FOF we must develop a different world view and this causes conflicting perceptions. For those still in the FOF, dissonance is revealed by these questions: “How many prediction failures does it take to really see that RB is not a prophet? If he is not a prophet, and if much of what he says turns out to be untrue, is his teaching true? How many times do we have to get fined for trying to avoid building code requirements? How many law suits do we have to settle? How many times do we have to watch overly grandiose plans dwindle into unfinished and almost unfinishable projects? How can we understand a leader who takes so many resources and has so consistently shown impractical judgment? How do we deal with the long standing allegations regarding Robert’s misuse of his role with regard to sex? What is our attitude about RBs difficulty in having a normal back and forth conversation especially where there is some form of disagreement? Can we call this man our teacher who has so often been wrong in practical ways, who refuses dissent, and whose morality is at best difficult to justify?” It creates some dissonance in me just to write these questions but obviously many of us struggle with understanding these issues and carry that dissonance quietly inside.
Cognitive dissonance is interesting because it often goes undetected within, but affects our attitudes, since unconsciously we form our attitudes so as to minimize the dissonance created by our course of action (or lack thereof).
Those who stay justify staying. Those who leave justify why they left. We all justify what we do and we do it eloquently enough to convince ourselves that we have done well. Sometimes we justify our decision to remain subservient and sometimes we justify our decision to rebel. In this way we get rid of the dissonance caused by taking a stand.
There is the story of the cult (not ours) that justified the leader’s failed prediction. The prediction stated that aliens would destroy the earth on a given date. When it did not happen the prediction was modified to note that the aliens had spared the earth because of them. The end result was stronger devotion to the leader. It is odd how we humans will accept outrageous ideas to minimize our dissonance. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance
If you want to see cognitive dissonance at work first hand, next time you do something that goes against your conscience, watch your imagination try to convince you that what you did was really ok. Another way to reduce cognitive dissonance is to convince yourself that the problem was somebody else’s fault or responsibility. When someone truthfully challenges the merits of our school, note the reaction within. Yes, that is cognitive dissonance. How do you get rid of it?
Councilors and directors in the fellowship help others to reduce their dissonance. A very sincere student once asked me (20 years ago) how to view Robert’s exchange of teaching and gifts for sex. He told me his story and I was a bit shaken. Soon I felt the pressure of my role (center director) to defend the teacher and the school. The best I could do was: “When we are in a higher state, many of these questions disappear or diminish in importance. The morality of higher centers differs from that of our lower centers. We have our own work to do.” I said more, but the more I talked the more hollow my words sounded. I really did not have a believable answer and I did not have the strength to be honest. I have been uncomfortable with that conversation for 20 years and I don’t think he bought it either since he left soon after. I wish I could have been more honest – he was sincere.
We have dissonance and have developed attitudes to reduce it, but it is important not to reduce dissonance by ignoring our conscience.
Having sat on a number of boards in the FOF, it is interesting to see how the boards struggle to be reasonable and still support Robert and how sometimes the only answer is to work around his wishes. Generally the boards are creative enough to find a way to support Robert and still be practical and much good has come from those efforts. But we tiptoe around the man who we put in charge of our funds, our artistic tastes, and our spiritual life, partly because we view it as his school and are thankful, partly because we think he might know more, and partly because we are afraid to confront the rejection that we get when we point out the unreasonableness of some of Robert’s wishes. I feel very sorry for those who play major leadership roles in the Fellowship that must live with even more dissonance than most of us.
The concept of cognitive dissonance and our need to dissolve it, explains why we lie to ourselves. My hope is that we can work on our dissonance, not only with presence (“if I am present enough I can block my conscience”) and nice sounding angles of thought, but also by actually making some changes. With that in mind I would like to offer the following suggestions for consideration:
1. Respectful dissent is not appreciated and encouraged by the FOF as a means of seeing the truth and improving the FOF. Can we find a way to open the fellowship to hearing and considering respectful and well meaning dissent even when it concerns Robert. The kind suggestions for one on one meetings with directors is a good step but not enough. Without allowing dissent, the hope for improvement is minimal. The fact that very few students have signed their blogs shows that the fear of speaking out is real.
2. Can we broaden our thinking, adding to our current definitions, so that 3rd line is extended into work for humanity and 2nd line includes work with all people (in or out). Charity starts at home, but perhaps we can branch out a little bringing our work to more situations and our compassion to more people.
3. Can we step back from the never ending demands for money. I know we have many beautiful things but I find the constant need for more money to be unhealthy to our community and our work. I have gained from it at times, but I believe we are a bit lunatic about this. Perhaps we need to learn to live within our means so that we can clean up some areas of poor householder and finish some projects that we started years ago, and be compassionate to those that are dear to us individually.
4. Our longevity as a group depends on our boards and council working to ensure that the FOF is clean – that our actions, including Roberts, reflect our goals of good householder, efficiency, compassion, reason, beauty and of course morality and legality. Can our boards find a way to make sure that we continue to improve our relationship with the outside world and the way that we operate with Robert? It would be nice to feel that we have nothing to be ashamed of. If we were really clean, our membership would grow and fewer students would leave. Many problems would go away. Robert may also need some gentle 3rd force to contain his lower self (he knows he has one) which at times undermines our success. Does anyone or any group have the being, position, and courage to do that?
5. Our current form does not encourage much creativity, individual thinking, and personal responsibility except within pretty narrow constraints. Can we find a way to broaden ways that students might contribute? (The old meeting formats provided some of that).
6. The sequence as we currently define it creates presence but it seems to side-step some aspects of higher centers. I know it is evolving. Can we find a way so that it helps to build compassion, conscience, and will. Perhaps it does for some.
Admittedly my suggestions are naïve and some are probably misguided based on my own identifications. It was also naïve to think that we would have an orchestra or beautiful gardens and a school that would attract people from all over the world. One step at a time we can improve. I think we can be better.
I am thankful for this blog and my friends in and out of the Fellowship.
William Heinz
wlheinz@comcast.net
March 19, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Balancing the Scale (237): Welcome back.
Of all the people you could have picked on, No Person is possibly the most harmless, kind and non-aggressive. Interesting choice.
The only way for you to know and understand the Fellowship is by JOINING and to stay for few years. Are you afraid to JOIN?
Okay. I agree that the only way for me to fully understand the FoF is to join. But I don’t want to understand it any more than I already do. I made my choice not to join even before I found out about all the dirt that is connected to the FoF and RB. I wasn’t going to pay for something that should be for free (and ultimately is paid for in a different currency than money).
Not to mention that if you read some of my previous posts, you will find that I may very well be the only one here who believes in personal development without the aid of a teacher, or a school. While you may find that concept hard to bite on, it currently works for me.
And would I be afraid to join the FoF? Sure, I would. After starting this discussion and saying the things I have been saying, not to mention my public dislike of the FoF, I doubt that I would be welcomed with open arms, if I would be welcomed at all. Not to mention that I can’t stand a lot of the current members I have met on the blog. Even at the prospective meeting I felt too much pressure and outright dismissal of non-FoF ideas. I do not like such (or other) authority, and I like to question everything (which infuriates even my partner at times). But even that is not the true reason that I didn’t even consider joining the FoF.
Do you want to hear the truth? The while that one of the speakers at the prospective meeting started talking about the idea that it is impossible to survive your own death without something that is delivered by the FoF, they lost me. I have read, seen, and experienced too much, to be able to believe that shit.
March 19, 2007 at 9:00 pm
Dear. Dear, Dear, many ‘I’s……Beautiful ….Sincerity……thanks, thanks, thanks the many ‘I’s for nourishing each other….. deeply…..touched….nothing!
Dear Elena, thank you for your sincerity, your post is beautiful. Dear Another Name, I was deeply touched by your words, wish I could hug you right now.
And thanks again, Sheik for making it happen and letting all this be expressed so beautifully. This blog seems to connect and bring together, not divide…ATTENTION!
March 19, 2007 at 9:33 pm
Hello one and all:
I would like to use my real name but at this time don’t feel secure doing it. Maybe I will later. Until today I was not feeling like posting on this blog. I have never blogged before in my life.
Anyway, my life started in the FOF in 1976 and ended abruptly in 1994. I left with many others, making it emotionally a bit easier I would say than for someone having to pick up their bags and exit on their own. However, not without significant internal turmoil. I truly believed Robert to be my teacher and I truly believed the Fellowship to be my answer to my idealistic worldview. But upon hearing the story firsthand by a student that had suffered emotional and physical abuse by Robert, I could no longer feel that respect I had for him anymore and bottom line it’s really hard to learn anything from someone you don’t respect. So off I went.
Would I just leave and keep the system of ideas I had in place for so many years? (body type, chief feature, four centers, 4th way ideas of Ouspensy and Gurdjieff). My intuition told me to drop them for now. Not because they were not true and had been extraordinarily beneficial in helping me see things clearly but because it would continue to keep me ‘stuck’ in limbo. And I knew I needed to release my connection with the Fellowship if I was to be successful. So I put it away for awhile and really tried not to use it at all either in speaking or in thinking. Although I stayed in town for awhile leaving seemed essential for my emotional health so I left soon thereafter.
And I began a life that would be difficult both emotionally and financially. I didn’t fit in to this new world I found myself. I had been using the system for so long (20 years) I had to reconnect somehow. How would I do that? So I kind of hid for five years. And during that time I healed and in the privacy of my own thoughts and feelings I found my life again.
Now here we are 13 years later and I can honestly say that I am doing better than I ever have in my life. I embrace life, all of it, leaving nothing out. I have high hopes that the world is entering into a phase of ‘waking up’ itself. There are many people I have found very helpful to my continued upbeat mood. I would suggest to students leaving to not try to find a better school or a teacher but to find support in any way you can. Wayne Dyer, Byron Katie, Esther and Jerry Hicks are just a few people that are helping many people wake up. But these are just people that helped me. Everyone is different and needs to find what works for them.
And it seems to me that what is happening in the FOF is happening out of the FOF. The Fellowship has always been a microcosm of the whole. How could it not be? We are all connected. That doesn’t necessarily mean we like each other or understand one another but like it or not we are all connected to one source. And this idea seems to be understood by ‘life people’ whether they practice religion, spirituality, or are on their own trying to figure it out. The only ones that seem to be confused about that idea are still stuck in dogmatic ideologies with all sorts of names.
I think it’s time for people in the Fellowship to support one another in any way they can and not be afraid to enter the unknown. There is no other way to learn.
This world is going through tremendous upheavals and change and I believe soon it will be difficult for many. But I also believe that our world is not meant for the few to survive and the rest to go down with the ship. Why don’t we try to support one another in or out? There are many people in the Fellowship who can’t leave because they have nowhere to go. Why don’t you open your doors and invite them in until they can figure out what they are doing? Or ask them if you can help in any way.
And perhaps that’s what this is all about and how this world will heal itself. I would like to believe we are all here for a purpose and by supporting one another in any way we can our purpose becomes clearer. And lucky for me I have many people in my life who feel the same way and support me in any way they can. Lucky me. I guess I could say I feel I earned it. It wasn’t easy to move on. But I know of no other way to be free. Hope this helps someone.
March 19, 2007 at 9:42 pm
“In Beelzebub’s Tales to His Grandson Gurdjieff speaks with warmth of America’s INNER POSSIBILITIES, butobserves that one of the chief factors that have already all but destroyed these
possibilities is how we teach our children to behave with money” Jacob Needleman, Money and the Meaning of Life page 266 ‘the hidden key’.
What is meant America’s INNER POSSIBILITIES? Is there a Gurdjieff student among us?
March 19, 2007 at 9:55 pm
“The only way for you to know and understand the Fellowship is by JOINING and to stay for few years. Are you afraid to JOIN?”
Do you remember RB saying “One doesn’t need to have Cancer to understand Cancer.
March 19, 2007 at 10:09 pm
I’ve been reading some of the very good posts from Part 1 more closely today. See Post #213 of Part 1… beautiful thoughts, Philip.
It’s interesting how this Discussion Group took off in December of last year, maybe starting with a post by “X” on November 30th, and then it started gaining momentum two months ago. Maybe just by chance, Barbara (Post #1) found the site on Google, and then others followed. But I’m glad the moderator, and then Barbara, got things going.
March 19, 2007 at 10:14 pm
Dear Balancing the scale – I am sorry my posts have annoyed you, it was not the intention behind them. I suggest – just don’t read them, skip next time you see them. Don’t even get into judgment, just skip them.
I do enjoy the blog very much, and find it very emotional. Nothing will happen if one takes a break… A break happens, I guess. Why do you even care, does it matter?
Sheik deserves many thanks from all of us for providing a place for people to openly express their thoughts and feelings. You cannot speak like this within FOF, you know it. Give it a try if you think you can. You’ll get a “call” very quickly, just like I did.
As for the sequence – do you sincerely need it to be where you are right now? What stops you from being here now – spinning thoughts, judgments, concepts? Well, you are none of this. Just see it. “Awake” is only a word, a concept, and nothing was said about “me” being “awake”. The very consciousness that is looking through your (and mine, and their) eyes right now does not need this word to define itself, it just IS, aware and ever-present. It became very clear, and I speak from honest experience. May be you’ll see it for yourself and your mind will loosen it’s grip. It is very impersonal, really, and very simple.
March 19, 2007 at 10:15 pm
Comrade, in Post #239 related to the fof payments, I’m sure you meant to write: “Since approximately 30% of your gross income is taken out of your paycheck by the state and federal governments, you are left with $35,000 per year in NET income.” (not gross)
March 19, 2007 at 11:41 pm
Rita (#221) — a truly profound post. You captured the experience I went through very precisely, with one difference — I really did everything I could to sincerely submit my will to the 4th way, the FOF and Robert. The disillusionment you refer to was definitely powerful as a result. I’m not sure I can recommend it, though. The melting down process that returned my life back to me was an extremely long, difficult and painful one. But maybe that’s just because I needed a bigger “kick.” Anyway, thanks for the post.
The tremendous outpouring of super-high-quality thought here on the blog recently is proving that reports of its demise were greatly exaggerated.
March 19, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Post #240 by Wm. H:
That is the King of Hearts.
March 19, 2007 at 11:47 pm
In the FAQ section of the FOF Web site:
http://www.apollo.org/english/joining_a_conscious_school/faqs.shtml
(Q) Is there a fee to join?
(A) To join, one pays a tithe of 10% gross monthly income. The membership donation increases at the second year as one’s verifications in turn increase. Special donations are also requested to help build the School. Different payment categories, such as parent with child, unemployed, retired, university student etc. are provided to help accommodate a member’s circumstances. Because the Fellowship of Friends is recognized by the state and federal governments as a non-profit religious organization, all membership donations are tax deductible in the U.S.
Thank you Comrade (Post #293) for putting some figures to this, it helps clarify what monetary costs are involved with some of these terms e.g special donations. Perhaps you should submit your calculations to the FOF site to serve as a practical example for perspective students.
Now maybe you, or anyone else, could help me out with this FAQ which I sense is related and could also profit with some additional clarification:
(Q) How is the donation income spent?
(A) The donation income is spent on the costs associated with supporting the worldwide centers, maintaining the Fellowship’s headquarters at Apollo, and administrative costs. It does not accrue to any one person.
In good faith,
RR
March 20, 2007 at 12:00 am
Dear Clara (was it really you? Impressive) & Dearest William H.,
your posts were the most definite , articulated and effective for me this week;
maybe because they didn’t seem to come out of the ordinary urge of lecturing, preaching or arguing , rather from the good old fashion desire of sharing in a constructive and unassuming way.
Thank you for collecting your thoughts for us.
What I see from my humble point of view , in the attempt to address the both of you
(not that your posts really need ANY follow up at all !),
is that this School had gradually and most irreversibly turned into a Religion ;
some of our discomfort is generated from the inability to recognize or to bend to this transformation .
Faith doesn’t require verification.
Worshipping doesn’t allow confrontation.
Conforming doesn’t harmonize with diversity.
Dear William , I believe that the effort of turning a Religion back into a School is vain, especially one that is so successfully money & sex oriented by its own Pope such as this one ,
but the accomplishment of internalizing your own work and developing an inner Master , rather then relying on an external , corrupted one, is tangible reality.
Most important : as you know, EVERY dissonance in music must be followed by a RESOLUTION.
We are trimming our being and making it awkwardly vibrate by passing through it ;
I just personally believe that the resolution is not necessarily going to be a “collective “ one this time;
Sorry, but that’s just utopia, at this point;
I’m rather gradually opening up to the prospect of a ground-breaking excursion in the regeneration and corroboration of the individual, a journey that we have some how neglected , undervalued or feared to embark on for too long.
Dear Clara, bottom line is : Robert had made his choices , we are responsible for ours.
Thank you for your time.
March 20, 2007 at 12:08 am
Sincereously, deeply, I thanks for this blog. First of all, I am Italian, so, my English is not perfect, at all.
After reading Clara Elena’s post (218) and William’s post (240) I cannot resist … I think that you both “broke the ice” and we can start playing with our real names.
I have been in the School for 20 years and I left 20 days ago.
Someone (probably in the first part of the blog) already have said that “the School as we knew it and loved it is dead”.
After leaving, after making the “call”, I felt as in a funeral: someone you loved, someone very important in your life died.
I am a positive type, so, after few days, I started thinking in a different way: I have gained, I paid for it (I am not talking about money), it is mine … I am still having a positive actitude toward Robert and the FOF. I just could not follow the teaching, anymore; I was not sincere with myself, with my friends, anymore; I could not give, I could not gain, anymore.
Now, the question is : Do I have a positive actitude toward myself? How can I move on?
Now, having the courage to click on Submit Comment will be my first challenge…
Baci a tutti!
March 20, 2007 at 2:15 am
To ‘What observe’post #242 plus your many previous,cynical,sneering, one, or sometimes two word ‘Statements’….Does it ever occur to you how impossible it actually is to really ‘Observe’ and ‘Divide attention’when holding onto such a negative state as yours ?The level of sheer self righteous animosity being expressed by you and others such as ‘Balancing the Scale’ ‘Crybaby’etc ( all current FOF members )has only served to give the impression on this blog that the Fof is composed only of fearful, immature robots.Which many of us know is not true.How refreshing to at last get some intelligent ,sane commentary from people still in the FOF ( Posts #240 and 218)
Hats off to William H. and Clara G. for their honest and courageous postings.
March 20, 2007 at 2:42 am
It’s supposed to be traumatic (to some degree) to leave a “school” or something one has invested so much of their spirit in. I would think that being able to leave trauma-free from a long experience with something like the FOF would indicate something seriously wrong either with their efforts or their psychology. But it gets good, very good.
March 20, 2007 at 3:40 am
Thank you, thank you, thank you to Elena Gutierrez and William Heinz for your stirring, beautiful and courageous postings. And thanks to you also Sheik.
March 20, 2007 at 3:53 am
Thanks, RR in Post 251, for your suggestion regarding Post 139 and Fellowship payments. As you pointed out, they say the money supports “the worldwide centers, maintaining the Fellowship’s headquarters at Apollo, and administrative costs.”
Intentionally vague.
Again, this topic gets into some uncomfortable territory, partly because it’s one of the first steps in any investigation: “Follow the money.”
Obviously the details are known to someone in the Fellowship. But unless I missed that series of emails, members don’t receive a pie chart outlining how their money was spent for Q4 of 2006, for example.
I’m sure some people out there who are involved in the process — or who are practicing law — have a better idea what information is public knowledge, and what information can be kept private legally.
March 20, 2007 at 4:44 am
An angle was given once that sentences that started with IF were lies.
It was also stated that Robert was working on levitation.
The Iraq war was started by lies. Robert’s connection with Alex who he called a criminal (liar) started FOF.
If something begins with a lie then what did Caesar mean when he asked Jesus the Christ, “what is TRUTH”?
March 20, 2007 at 5:57 am
Brava Clara e Gabriella!!
Dio e’ generoso.
Con tutto il mio cuore,
un’abbraccio
March 20, 2007 at 6:16 am
In response to Bruce Levy (232) attack on me.
I had two different inputs on this blog (204 and 227)
I am a honest ex-student. You might consider all the rules of FOF yourself! Good luck in your work.
In Friendship Always
Mary Battista
March 20, 2007 at 6:52 am
Oh boy… so much to say, and I have no idea where to begin. To preface, I was a member of FOF from Christmas Day, 1973, until the Spring of 1981. I knew something was not right in the group, but I really did not have the courage to trust my own feelings. I was afraid that what Robert said about people leaving being destined to NEVER find another real school. Of course, I know now that is a standard cult practice. I just knew that when the school was young, Robert often said that he did not make rules, as that “destroyed students’ will”. 3 or 4 years later, there were rules about most aspects of one’s life. I wondered often how Robert was able to be so judgmental about others- about non students or ex students, and that was always ignored. It really is a case of people pretending that the naked emperor had a fine suit of clothes. I was one of those who defended Robert. After leaving, for years, I wandered in my spiritual quest… tried a little of this and a little of that… pretty much a new age addict. I was very attracted to some of the things in Tibetan Buddhism, and met some obviously awake beings, but I was shell shocked.. really afraid to join anything. For nearly 20 years, I floundered. Since then I have met a wonderful philosophy that is really the root of it all.. which is really what Buddha was saying.. what Jesus was saying.. what Hafiz was saying… Some of the truths that have been revealed are so obvious, but so totally ignored in Gurdjieff/Ouspensky groups. I will state what I have learned. First of all, HIGHER STATES OF CONSCIOUSNESS HAVE ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH AWAKENING. There was a time when I would have thought a statement like that to be pure heresy, but now it is so obvious. Let me say it this way: Who we are is that which sees everything. When we seem to be totally asleep, there is something that is noticing that.. when we are angry, something is noticing that anger. When we are in a state of bliss, something is also noticing that bliss. We are NOT the states. Who we are is simply that which is aware of EVERYTHING. So who we are is always awake, in one who we call an enlightened being, and also in a totally identified being. Here is a very simple thing that anyone can observe. Anything that has a beginning also has an ending. Any state that comes, even the most exalted state, will end! For over 30 years, my greatest hope was to SOMEDAY ATTAIN A HIGHER STATE THAT DID NOT END. This is pure fantasy. It cannot be done. Jesus did not do it, and Robert Burton certainly did not do it. True enlightenment is not about states of consciousness. It is present within ALL states of consciousness.
So what is this “enlightenment” thing? Enlightenment is not something that we can DO… not something to ATTAIN… Gurdjieff was right about a lot of things, and I am finding, wrong about a lot of things as well. FINALLY, I believe I understand what Ouspensky was saying at the end of his life. Could it be that “Abandon the system!” actually meant to abandon the system? My response is YES! Any system is about the mind. About this imaginary being called “me” figuring it out. There is NOTHING to figure out! The truth is much simpler than that, and the mind will never really get it.
Look at this simple analogy, and see if it resonates with you. Imagine a lucid dream. In such a dream, there might be something happening, like a dream monster chasing the central character, named “me”. This “me” is terrified, and is trying to escape the monster, and whenever he thinks he has hidden, the monster sniffs him out, and the chase resumes. Well, this dream is lucid, so there is a presence that sees that this is simply a dream. It is not really happening. The lucidity can say to this “me” character, “This is only a dream. It is not really happening,” but the words fall on deaf ears. To the dream character, it is real. So did a monster actually chase this character? Of course, the answer is NO. Did the dream happen? Yes, the dream happened, but it was a dream. It was not real. THE TRUTH IS THAT YOU ARE LIVING IN A DREAM, AND YOU ARE ABSOLUTELY CONVINCED THAT YOU ARE THE DREAM CHARACTER, AND THAT IF YOU CAN JUST DO ENOUGH MEDITATION, OR PROSTRATIONS OR “SELF REMEMBER” ENOUGH, THEN YOU WILL BE AWAKE. This is folly, my friends. Awakening is simply the realization that you are not the dream character. Who you are is the LUCIDITY. Awakening really is a shift in perception. Here’s the catch. There is no meditation, no secret teaching, no practice, no amount of knowledge that can EVER cause this shift to happen. How many millions of wonderfully devoted spiritual people are there on this planet? People who deserve to awaken… who have “earned their wings”… Yet they are not awake. History has shown us that there are many total scoundrels who HAVE awakened. I know one man who did not believe in God, in higher powers, in benevolence at all. He was a revolutionary in the 70s.. robbed 12 banks and blew up several power plants. He was full of hate and spent 17 years in a Federal Prison. One day, a teacher (her name is Gangaji, an American woman) came into the prison. This man, John Sherman, thought she was just another fake, but the job of setting up the room for her talk fell upon him. He did not plan to attend. She entered the prison with her entourage, and approached him. She said the words, “You must be John,” and he awoke! That simple. Did he deserve it? Of course not! Why him? Who knows? The only thing that I have seen about people who have awakened is that somehow there was a total surrender of the ego, the imaginary self. For John, he had given up. Life didn’t work for him… all the plans and schemes did not work. Somehow he was able to face this simple truth. Another awakened being I know, another American man who now calls himself, Adyashanti, practiced Zen Buddhism faithfully for years. He was young, but was not to be deterred. It was all that mattered to him. He did every retreat he could, meditated hours every day, and saw that most of the “old timers” who attended the meetings he frequented had pretty much given up the idea of awakening. This made Adya (then called Stephen Grey) even more determined. He did everything he could think of.. finally, at his wits’ end, he went out to his little meditation shack in his back yard, determined to awake, once and for all. This is also the story of Buddha under the Bodhi tree..the same resolve… Well, young Stephen did everything he could..but NOTHING… nothing worked. He exited the little hut, and said aloud the words, “I can’t do this” and awoke. It was the final surrender of the ego. It is not something one can do as a practice.. the practice of “I can’t do it”, is just a trick of the mind. But one must come to that point. There are some things that one can do to speed up the process, but really, it is up to the divine woman named GRACE to see who awakens. I will say that Adyashanti is a wonderful teacher. He is I think 43 years old now, and has been teaching since 1996. Someone asked him in a radio interview last year how many people have awakened under him. Of course, he said that he does not keep count, but he would estimate that somewhere between 200 and 300 have awakened, and maybe 50-75 have fully embodied their awakening.
THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT POINT, AND THIS IS WHERE ROBERT BURTON AND COUNTLESS OTHERS HAVE MISSED THE BOAT. What is this embodiment? There is a wonderful book (forget who wrote it) called “Halfway Up The Mountain”, which is about this scenerio, of having a deep and true experience of awakening, and not completing it.. not fully deepening into it. I remember Robert describing his experience of awakening, while standing in line at a bank. From what he said (assuming that he was telling the truth), it was like an atomic explosion. Some people who awaken, do have such experiences… and some do not..it is NOT the aame for everyone… HERE IS THE MISTAKE THAT SO MANY MAKE. There is an awakening, and they take it PERSONALLY. They believe that there is now an “enlightened ME”. In the course of embodying this awakening, a period of time from as short as a couple of years and as long as maybe 15 years, there are many deeper awakenings. THe most profound is the absolute realization that there is no ME, and there has never been a ME. There is NOT an enlightened SELF! There is simply enlightenment. There is the realization that there is total unity in the universe. there are not truly individual selves.. there is ONE entity.. not even an entity.. because to conceive of one entity is still to put a form on things.. and that makes it “one instead of two” In truth, there is just oneness, taking many apparent forms.. We can look at it as consciousness playing the part of Spencer and of Thomas, and Sarah and Kathryn, and also of a rock or a can of Bud Light… it is all the same. Science is even seeing this to be true… watch the movie “Mindwalk” or the movie, “What the Bleep Do We Know?” and some of these ideas will be expanded upon. The problem that many have is that they take this awakening to be about ME.. and then they see themselves as HIGHER BEINGS and others as LOWER BEINGS. A truly awakened person does not see higher or lower. There is no hierarchy at all. My experience of Robert Burton is that he talked of himself (pretty much constantly) as higher than others. Look at the awakened beings in history.. did Jesus see himself as higher? Did Buddha? How about Ramana? If you ever encounter someone who thinks that THIS is the WAY, turn and run! If anyone tells you that if you leave a group, you will be lost, then get lost as fast as you can!
There are a lot of awakened teachers out there. I think it is important to find a teacher who has set up his/her organization in a way that discourages cult activity. Gangaji and Adyashanti are two who have done this. There are no organizations to join.. no membership dues.. no ashrams.. nobody asking you for a special donation… and these (and many other teachers) do not live with their students, so the students cannot follow them around… they discourage this kind of dependence… Here are some teachers that I know and believe have a high level of integrity. Look them up on the web.. many of them are in the Western US.. I know of some from other places, but since I live in the Northwest, most of the ones I know are from the West..
Gangaji (Ashland, OR)
Adyashanti (San Jose, CA)
John Sherman (Ojai, CA)
Amber Terrell (Boulder, CO)
Eckhart Tolle (Vancouver, BC)
Catherine Ingram (Los Angeles)
Pamela Wilson (Santa Fe, NM)
Solane’ Verraine (Santa Fe, NM)
Neelam (Western CO)
Nirmala (Sedona, AZ)
Byron Katie (Don’t really know where she lives.. hers is a teaching disguised as self-help.. but it’s really about awakening) Isaac Shapiro (Australia)
There are hundreds of others.. some better than others.. and one just right for you, if you are looking for a teacher. Remember this one thing.. a teacher’s job is to get rid of his/her students as fast as possible, not to keep them around. The way to get rid of them is to help with their awakening.. Of the ones above, I personally would recommend Adyashanti, Gangaji and John Sherman as the ones who have helped the most to awaken. See what works for you..
March 20, 2007 at 6:57 am
Hello,
I like BBB. Though I want a chesnut arab mare with a blaze next to my camel!
Having said that. Here are some of my thoughts on the blog.
1- Knee jerk reactions: I find that when I re-read my first post, it was a knee jerk reaction, and there are some things expressed, that do not truly reflect my deeper more honest feelings. It was simply a little lie. That I wish to think of as harmless. But it is not, not really. ( It was about not trusting those around RB. I do trust them, to be what they are young men who do not have much life experience, in positions of “responsibility” often trying to do the best they can.) I assume many of you are in the same boat, with little white lies.
2- Predictable: I find posts are highly predictable, in tone, thinking. As if each person is very locked into their own frame of reference.
So I question. Do you 100% believe everything you are writing?
I question: have any of you almost died?
I have almost died a few times. I am a bit of a thrill seeker. Why? Because of the state, and the perspective death puts on what is important, and what I really have control over.
In this moment what do you have control over? And how does that relate to your long term aims?
And there is the rub. Long term aim. Living the present not as something seperate from a whole, but as a drop of rain in the sea. As a boat with sails, unfurled. Do you toss with no destination, or do you have a port, an aim? And what do you need to do now? Is it day or night? Does the storm rip through your sails? Are you caught in shallows? Have you landed and given up, not traveling further toward your original destination? Have you arrived? Now what? What, now, here, so that you may get to there.
ever,
inconvient
ps- One of the paradoxes that I thought about from Rodney Collin, went something like this, “Sometimes, in stating the “truth” as we see it, we create a lie.”
March 20, 2007 at 7:20 am
The sweetness of brotherhood (Fellowship) has left my heart.
My friends are unable to keep a secret, are abandoning the duties of brotherhood (Fellowship) and are stirring up enmity between them.
Friends and former Friends, beware of disputing, you will never negate the cunning of the mild, nor the onslaught of the vile.
March 20, 2007 at 7:22 am
In general the only motive for contention is to display intellectual superiority and to belittle one’s opponent by showing his ignorance.
This amounts to arrogance, contempt, hurtfulneses and teh insulting charge of folly and ignorance.
There is no meaning to enmity but this, so what part can it have in brotherhood (fellowship) and true friendship?
March 20, 2007 at 7:23 am
Do not dispute with your brother.
Do not mock him.
March 20, 2007 at 7:25 am
Justas it is incumbent upon you to hold your tongue from mentioning his misdeeds, so ought you to observe silence in your heart.
This is done by giving up suspicions, for suspicions constitute slander in the heart which is unlawful.
March 20, 2007 at 7:55 am
More statistics: this time last year this site had hardly any hits, now it has 1,700 per month and increasing (go to site map on home page and choose visits by year, it shows you a nice graph). I wonder if you superimposed a similar graph showing rate of students leaving the fof it would indicate similar trends?
Jihaad Heaven (254)- are you really…just possibly…who I think you are???
William Heinz (240)- on cognitive dissonance, do you use that term to soften the blow? FOF’ers may be able to relate to it better as friction which could lead to negativity if they didn’t separate from it or transform it (which actually may really be ways of buffering it). Though I agree wholeheartedly with your implications that whatever it is called, it can be a sign that something is amiss and needs to be addressed. We can be our own barometers and guides to ‘right action’ when we let go of the sense of ‘me’, watch, listen and are sensitive to the internal responses to things. There is some kind of inner intelligence which gets drowned out by the sense of ‘me’ asserting itself. And I think some recent postings may evoke lots of ‘me’s’ who feel threatened by their impending demise. Good stuff.
Idiots One and All
March 20, 2007 at 8:30 am
I wonder if anybody looked at the first part of this discussion – the beginning page. Yesterday it ended in the middle of post #183, today it ends in the middle of post #259. It is supposed to be 300 posts, with the link to the second page at the end, – well, it is not there these two days that I looked at it. Anybody knows what’s going on?
March 20, 2007 at 8:43 am
Brief History of the Fellowship of Friends:
The Fellowship of Friends began on January 1, 1970 in Lafayette, California, where the Teacher was residing at the time. It began to grow as the first member of the Fellowship introduced other interested persons to the Teacher. In the beginning, there was no organized advertising effort: contact with the Fellowship was by word-of-mouth only, and exposure was limited to the Bay Area of California.
By December of 1970, the Fellowship consisted of 25 members. During that Christmas, the Teacher decided to begin the search for property that would serve as the Fellowship retreat, where efforts on all three lines of work could be pursued. Each member (including the Teacher) contributed a sum of money equal to one month’s gross earnings, or $200, whichever was greater. It was the desire of the Teacher that this property not belong to any one member, NOR TO HIMSELF, but that it be a joint ownership. HE WISHED ALL MEMBERS TO FEEL THAT THE FELLOWSHIP WAS THEIR OWN. ‘You must feel it is your own work. A School can exist only when people feel not outside but inside, when they think of it as their own house.’ (The Fourth Way)
Property was found in the Sierra foothills and purchased six months later. By this time, the Fellowship had grown to approximately seventy members, most of whom resided in Northern California cities such as Vallejo, Vacaville, Sacramento, Walnut Creek, Berkeley, and San Francisco. Although two members had joined from Los Angeles and one from Seattle, the Fellowship had yet to begin its national and international expansion. Work began immediately on the property, which was formally called Via Del Sol (i.e., The Way of the Sun) and informally referred to as The Ranch. While certain members chose to leave their occupations and move to The Ranch to assist in its development, others remained in the Bay Area to hold prospective student meetings.
By Christmas, 1971, the efforts of these members had resulted in a membership of 100. In addition to meetings in the Bay Area, prospective student meetings were also conducted in Lake Tahoe and Carmel. Contact with the Fellowship at this time was still by word-of-mouth. A core of new members began to form in Lake Tahoe and Carmel. Soon, these two locations were referred to as the Lake Tahoe and Carmel ‘centers,’ and the decision was made to reach other interested persons who had no direct connection to current members. Because it had always been the Fellowship’s policy NOT TO PROSELYTIZE, the Teacher chose a method to make the Fellowship available to those who were searching for a real School: bookmarks. Bookmarks were placed in relevant books in bookstores throughout California. This advertising method proved so successful that members were encouraged to place bookmarks in stores wherever they traveled.
By Christmas, 1972, centers were established in Carmel, Lake Tahoe, Los Angeles, and Hawaii. Within six months, the list of centers would include San Diego, Santa Barbara, and Sacramento. Two to three members were chosen to ‘direct’ each center. Sometimes additional members were also asked to move to help start a center. These people became known as ‘supporting students.’
In addition to placing bookmarks, the directors began to advertise in local papers. Centers were opened in Seattle, Washington (October, 1973) and Portland, Oregon (February, 1974). The Hawaii, Portland and Seattle centers proved so successful that the Teacher began to consider opening centers throughout the United States. By Christmas, 1975, about sixty members were chosen to open ten centers throughout the United States: New York, Pittsburgh, Miami, Washington D.C., Chicago, Atlanta, Detroit, Philadelphia, Denver, and Phoenix. On January 1, 1976 these members, who had celebrated the Fellowship’s sixth anniversary the night before at Mount Carmel (which was the name now given to The Ranch), assembled en masse to set out for their respective cities. It was an exciting time in the Fellowship’s history. These members had willingly relinquished their jobs to move to a city where they knew no one and where no job awaited them. In some cases, one member in the center had gone ahead of the others to locate a large house which could serve as a Teaching House. Teaching houses served as lodging not only for the center directors and supporting members, but also for members traveling to the city. Teaching houses provided members with the opportunity to do intensive second line of work since it was not uncommon for members of different body types, features, centers of gravity, and alchemy to be placed together.
Once the Fellowship had planted seeds throughout the United States, it ventured across the Atlantic to England, France, and Germany. Centers spread rapidly throughout Europe. Paralleling the growth of centers was the growth of Mt. Carmel (then Apollo; now Isis), which began in earnest late in 1973. At that time, Karl Werner was introduced to the Fellowship and agreed to help with the construction of the vineyard and winery. Clearing (which at first was done mostly by hand) began in April 1974; in the spring of 1975 a nursery was started; and in 1976 the first vines were planted (slopes 1 and 2). Work on the winery began in 1977 with the construction of the cement pad for the fermentation room and the raising of an inflated dome to cover it. The first tiny harvest (a few tons) occurred in 1978. Other facilities were also being developed. The Lincoln Lodge, originally a rickety log cabin, underwent almost continual modification and finally became Apollo d’Oro. The Town Hall (now known as the Prytaneion), originally conceived as a book bindery, was completed in 1978, and in 1979, the Blake Cottage [teacher’s residence] began its conversion into what is now the Galeria Apollo. Today, the Fellowship has extended itself into Asia, and South America. Isis continues to grow, and students from all over the world participate in the development of the community. The methods of expansion remain the same: one or more members move to a city, place bookmarks in designated books, await the phone calls of prospective members, and hold meetings to introduce the System to these persons.
Wouldn’t You Like To Know
March 20, 2007 at 9:02 am
Oops… I opened the beginning page once more and all 300 posts were there. What is going on?
March 20, 2007 at 9:25 am
William:
It’s been a very long time, so I’d be surprised if you remember me, but I remember you, and it’s so very nice to see You.
Paul A.
March 20, 2007 at 9:44 am
‘If Influence C took the time to give us this shock, we must take the time to transform it. At this point, the key is not to resent this shock.’
‘How can one not deceive oneself?
In the second state one is deceiving oneself,
because one is not present.’
‘What I notice is that as the shock is
persisting, and as the time is
advancing, we have to keep reaffirming
not-resenting. …I remember that now
it is our turn to undergo friction.
Other students each have their own turn,
and at times it is the teacher’s turn.’
‘Influence C have artificially applied them [shocks] into their and our roles to transform. One always has to take Influence C on their own terms, and that is how they will get us to Paradise. We are very lucky Influence C take the time to help us escape; who are we that they would take the time to help us? And why we of all others? One area you all have to watch is the group of I’s that is concerned about myself in such situations. Remember that I will be doing my work.’
‘The machine judges by external achievements.’
Robert Earl Burton
Email Sent:
Monday, August 09, 2004 9:28 AM
Subject: From Asaf: Our San Francisco Experience
Dear Friends,
Asaf’s computer has been stolen upon their arrival to London and with it his address book.
He asked me to send this email, regarding their experience in San Francisco Airport, to you all.
Please note that there is a picture attached:
With Love,
Yoad
yoadraaaar@yaaaa.com
‘These people are walking carelessly towards their gate. They do not suspect there is a challenge even to this moment–to be present to it.’
We were making our way from the security check-point to the gate, and in this hall Robert called our attention to the dozens of passengers carelessly hurrying to their flights. We were a group of six travelers altogether; Robert, Carlos, Dorian, Mihai, Dmitry S and myself. Robert now being a senior citizen, he and I advanced to the head of the cue and pre-boarded. Our seats were almost at the back of the aircraft. The plane was scheduled to take off at 16:30, that is, in half and hour, and after working on some notes the fatigue caught up with us and we decided to rest for a while. I woke up suddenly, hearing my name being announced in the loudspeaker alongside the rest of our traveling group. We were asked to advance to the entrance of the aircraft. Dorian went first to check what the misunderstanding might be, and upon seeing that he did not return, as well as having heard our names called again, we all advanced to the front. There, we were greeted by the head stewardess, and politely asked to disembark the aircraft. We were lead to the same hallway through which we passed while boarding, but the atmosphere now swiftly changed, as we soon noticed that we were surrounded by police officers. After having been left in this peculiar position for a minute or so, the stewardess approached us and explained, ‘Our crew has discussed your group, and together we all agreed that we are unwilling to include you in our flight. Your behavior has been suspicious from the beginning, and we cannot risk flying you. We now turn you over to the police, and they will take charge of your case from this point onwards.’ ‘Miss, I understand your concern’ began Robert after stepping forward, ‘but there must be some misunderstanding. We take this flight four times a year, often using your airline. We are a religious organization based here in California, and in fact we have tickets for the Bolshoi ballet this evening in the Covent Gardens Theater.’ This last comment on Robert’s part seemed to surprise the stewardess, although to my perception she was already fixed in her decision, and events having developed to such an extreme point, it was clear that it would take a considerable effort of explanation on our part in order to clear this abrupt suspicion that had developed around us. The stewardess dismissed herself and we were now left by ourselves, surrounded by a dozen or so police officers. After five minutes had elapsed in this state of uncertainty, Robert turned towards us and said, ‘If Influence C took the time to give us this shock, we must take the time to transform it. At this point, the key is not to resent this shock.’ We gradually learned the causes of suspicion against us. First, Dorian had intentionally checked into the flight early and asked for six adjacent seats. Second, we were, indeed, a diverse group of varying nationalities and ages. Third (and this is where the hand of Influence C became more and more apparent) we unexpectedly met another student, Stepan K., who was on the same flight, although destined to continue from London to Athens. He approached us while we were on board, and this aroused the suspicion on behalf of the crew members even more. Additionally (and again, the hand of Influence C could be sensed) the upper luggage bins above our seat were broken, damaged by us (claimed the crew) while loading them with suspicious items. Finally, another two suspicious Middle-eastern looking men were detected on the plane, which naturally added to the crews paranoia. We would also learn (later) that this particular day happened to be one of a heightened terrorism alert, the flight crews nationwide having been specifically asked not to leave any stone unturned.
After perhaps fifteen minutes still standing in the hallway, we noticed that the crew was now leading all the rest of the passengers off board. Quietly we stood there, as the passengers walked by us one by one, each inquisitively looking at us and probably asking himself what exactly it was that we might have been plotting against him.
Within about half an our into this play, we were lead to a nearby large room and were seated individually (each about ten meters apart from the other). We were asked to wait patiently until the inspectors would arrive. Fortunately I was allowed to stay seated next to Robert; perhaps his being a senior aroused some kind of understanding on their part. However, I had left my notes on the plane, and did not have what to share with him as far as knowledge goes. We recalled where we had left off before all this began. Robert had posed the interesting question ‘How can one not deceive oneself?’ ‘In the second state one is deceiving oneself,’ continued Robert, answering his own earlier question ‘because one is not present. The best thing is to be present, and if that is not occurring, the second best thing is to have intellectual parts promoting presence; the most undesirable position is to be in the jacks and the queens. In the queens one does not have any option. The queens are full of doubt, not suspecting that they are the problem.’ I recalled a thought of Albert Einstein which had always been practical for me (although Einstein obviously would have been referring to something else). ‘Regarding rising from the queens to the kings’ I said ‘Einstein said that the solution is never on the same level as the problem.’ ‘Yes that is very good,’ responded Robert ‘I have heard it before, but now I understand it better. The solution is also not to be found in words, the problem is in words.’
Thus we spent three and a half hours seated in an abandoned room in the San Francisco airport, during which we were briefly investigated by the FBI, although mostly left to ourselves.
At a certain moment we recalled a story of Gurdjieff being arrested by the French police. Foreign pupils of Gurdjieff’s, especially Americans, coming over to see him after World War II would bring him gifts of money, sometimes a thousand dollars or more. By law, however, these should have been exchanged at once for francs. But Gurdjieff liked to keep the foreign bank notes. Thus, one day he was warned that the police intended to raid his flat, and he was implored to make sure that he had nothing suspicious. He replied, ‘They can never find anything in my apartment.’ The same day the police came, looked under his mattress, and found a variety of foreign currency notes. He was taken to the police station and locked up with petty criminals.
When brought before the magistrate, Gurdjieff skillfully played the part of a poor old man who understood nothing about foreign money, and could scarcely speak French. He was, on this account, eventually discharged.
‘This is also part of having outside help–these kinds of things too’ Robert explained. ‘What I notice is that as the shock is persisting, and as the time is advancing, we have to keep reaffirming not-resenting. It is the queens that are resenting. Also, in these kind of situations I remember that now it is our turn to undergo friction. Other students each have their own turn, and at times it is the teacher’s turn. As a school, we are getting farther and farther away from the queens, and this is another opportunity to practice this. Becoming old is by no means a hedge against receiving friction, neither was I expecting it to be so.’ One of the chief police officers entered the room at 22:30 and announced that they had finished their investigation and we had proved innocent. They had searched through our luggage (both carry-on as well as check-in) and had also visited our website. The site aroused respect on their part, and the FBI officer apologized for the inconvenience caused.
‘I also read your site,’ said one of the minor officers. ‘This incident will only increase your faith in your faith,’ he said, in a fairly proud tone of voice.
‘Strange play’ remarked Robert on our way to a nearby hotel. ‘This shock was all planned even before we arrived at the airport. I marvel the Absolute scripted it for us. Compared to what he has seen, it is very little. We all stayed away from our machine’s imaginary picture of what should have happened. It is good we recently read of Gurdjieff’s arrest. He would have been in his eighties when that occurred–and I trust his shock was more difficult to handle than this one. It helped me work with this situation.’ ‘We are very lucky that it was an artificial shock rather than some kind of brutal handling which past schools have indeed experienced. During the shock I had the ‘I’ that C. Frew (who is also receiving artificially applied friction from Influence C, although in his case it is terminal) would have been grateful to undergo this if it were all that was asked of him. These are all artificial shocks–Girard’s stroke, Peter Bishop’s untimely death, and even Genevieve from one angle–Influence C have artificially applied them into their and our roles to transform. One always has to take Influence C on their own terms, and that is how they will get us to Paradise. We are very lucky Influence C take the time to help us escape; who are we that they would take the time to help us? And why we of all others?’ ‘One area you all have to watch is the group of I’s that is concerned about myself in such situations. Remember that I will be doing my work. The seven of hearts can work through these concern I’s.’ We received complementary rooms in a nearby hotel and spent the night there. Since our flight was not to leave until 16:30, we decided to have lunch in San Francisco the following day. As we arrived in Union Square, Robert remarked, ‘The machine considers yesterday as time lost. But it was not time lost because there was a lot of presence and third state to it all. The machine judges by external achievements.’ Soon, we were back in the airport undergoing exactly the same check-in procedure as in the previous day. After passing the security area, and as we were advancing towards our gate once again, I recalled Robert’s comment of how no one was suspecting there was a challenge to that moment, and pondered how curious it was that as Robert made that remark the previous day, none of us suspected that we were about to encounter a challenge that would last until 22:30! Dorian insisted that Robert and I be upgraded to upper class. Schools always make a profit, and thus our story ends happily with Robert and myself enjoying a pleasant dinner sitting across from each other. We toasted to bearing the slings and arrows of our outrageous good-fortune.
[Question from poster: Grand Bizarre Incident Detector [Or, was it just Influence C?]:
Does it require above sort of thing, a national/international incident, and/or the imminent demise of FOF, to have teacher/FOF consider some self-reflection about direction and behaviours? If FOF is to evolve, all must evolve, especially teacher. If FOF is to evil, all must evil, especially teacher. Contemplate that.]
The machine judges by external achievements.
March 20, 2007 at 10:07 am
It’s good to be connected here to the voices of open-hearted and uncynical souls, something most former and current FOF members still have in common. I’m a former FOF member and have been touched by many of the posts. This is my first post.
I joined the Fellowship in 1986 and left almost exactly one year ago. I don’t believe the process of unfolding a clear understanding could have occurred at a faster pace for me. My experience inside the Fellowship world was a complex mix of:
__Profound and heavenly states of being attained with the help of Robert’s influence, one way or the other,
__Judgment about the lack of compassion displayed by Robert and many students when real suffering ravaged fellow ‘friends’,
__The heady delights of intellectual exercises taught and practiced daily,
__Continuing questions about the lavish form of Robert’s school demonstrating that he may well be a mad, esthete gay man with abundant charm,
__Love and deep gratitude for old and newly found friends and their fidelity toward our common goal of presence,
__Great affection for Robert as he tirelessly expressed his own being.
For me, one of the biggest hooks was the caution that ‘keeping the school’ was our biggest challenge. I did not want to be a tragic figure lacking the being to know the gods were at work with me, that my being resonated to attract them. The states I experienced with Robert and the glorious good fortune of living in this community verified this. Wasn’t Robert and the work of this school under different laws? If this is a conscious school, doesn’t the end justify the means? Robert’s nature is as it is, and so on.
I have left because my doubts about Robert’s empire continued to stir in me and I no longer wanted to forget myself in order to quiet them. My heart wasn’t free.
I believe I observed enchantment entwined in Robert’s environment. The real purpose of Robert’s endless flow of activities became questionable. I began to understand how many students had abandoned the basic principle of good householder to follow Robert’s direction and now faced the collateral damage of financial distress or ruin, neglected and abandoned children, parents that had died without reconciliation, and alienation of other personal ‘life’ relationships by the arbitrary psychological separation required to keep themselves connected to ‘the work’. Where does one go from there?
For some struggling with doubts about the Fellowship, the worse thing is a sense of shame and regret for what has been invested, but please don’t go down that road! If you forgot yourself but know it now, then use that as a compass as you continue becoming. Take it very personally to use as grist for your mill and waste nothing. I still don’t know how to classify the experiences I had in the Fellowship, but my being knows that I gained much that is essential to my life there. The departure can be complicated but one should know when to go.
I’ll be watching for you.
Across the River
PS It’s a good thing you do Sheik – Thank you.
March 20, 2007 at 10:44 am
Please observe what is verifiable at home page:
Animam Recro
Site Summary
VISITS
Total 7,368
Average Per Day 105
Average Visit Length 2:20
Last Hour 2
Today 47
This Week 732
PAGE VIEWS
Total 10,686
Average Per Day 140
Average Per Visit 1.3
Last Hour 4
Today 59
This Week 979
March 20, 2007 at 11:03 am
An idea: if ALL of you refused to make the spring so called donation will than RB and the FOF’s Council be moved to make some changes ? I think they will and very quickly too !!!
Do you still want to pay for viagra, Armani’s Suits, and an incredible amount of foods that often ends up in the rubbish ? Do you really think that that kind of expences it is necessary for your evolution ?
Before you sign that check try to THINK !
March 20, 2007 at 12:09 pm
It is 2.00 a.m…
The night wakes me up,
The night wakes me up
My stomach is churning
I never knew that stress could cause stomach pain…
Too much to digest
I wake up and think of WH letter…
Of CH… letter
Are these letters, answers to the questions is RB sick?
Are conscious and conscience related?
What is out is in and so..
Are we fof students sick too?
Are we in cognitive dissonance and buffering the reality…the truth?
God (God means “what is here”) help me…
I am so miserable…my stomach aches
Thanks Mary and all the others who know the truth and that it is so easy to leave…
Maybe I should try to go for that …
Yes let’s believe: It is easy to leave, the truth was know to so many of us
God, (God means “what is here too”) my partner is awake too…
I got to stop reading this blog; I am ending up getting an ulcer…
I got health insurance with a good deductible, no worries…?
All is well arranged
Just go to bed and sleep
Dear people out there
Reading this …you have courage
I wish I was one of those students who do not read the blog…
Who simply do not read it, keep the lid closed?
Put the whole issue with Robert in a container far away in storage..
Maybe I am the one who is sick and not RB?
O God (God means “what is here too”) …it is too much
Tears do not relieve my stomach…
Maybe some hot tea or aloe vera..
Is this “living the question”?
I do not want to go and I can not stay
Am I one of the one percent…who did not know?
Maybe if I bend over and rock my self to sleep?
But then the tears start…o God ( yes it still means “what is..”)
That relieves the pain…o quite writing, the stomach pain comes back again
O it is better
I wonder how many other people have an upset stomach these days
I wonder if WH and CH have a stomach.
O it feels better..pffff
One of those sleepless nights
No dog seems awake it is so quiet
I will call this writing “Sleepless nights in …?”
I am not going to give away my identity…
Nobody will guess who I am…
Stomach pains why can I not be what I am…
God (still means “what is”) Why can I not be what I am…
Is this what the Bible means…Men have nowhere to lay his head?
My stomach makes noises.. Is that a sign….?
Get real… signs……
O anger comes in; better then depression and tears,
Good we are creeping up on the emotional scale
Can not wait till the sun comes up 5 more hours and I can look up and see the sky
And will give me peace..ooo what is my partner, doing seems to be awake too…
Ooo, this letter is getting too long
Well, the paper and the blog and the night are patient
Maybe I should clean out some kitchen cabinets…do something useful
Good old tape of my up bringing
Kept me going in the FOF so long…it became make more efforts
Ooo more stomach sounds….
That feels better
My sign to make more efforts, pff clean some cupboards
Make space for new things to enter.
Live the mystery
Sleep well or not all of you and thanks for reading.
March 20, 2007 at 2:41 pm
Laughing: The problem would be with your internet connection (ie. it’s too slow), not the blog. Sometimes the page doesn’t load in time, simply refresh it.
One and All: Currently it’s closer to 30,000-40,000 hits per month. When me and knight started the blog months ago we used to get around 50-80 hits a day, after the discussion started the blog was getting around 1,000-1,600 a day.
What Observe: You got your numbers wrong. The site meter is not delivered by wordpress and works far better on blogger than it does on wordpress. The actual stats (given by the provider, ie. wordpress) are as follows:
Blog Stats
Total Views: 45,041
Best Day Ever: 1,728
Views today: 551 (at 12:37pm)
Views yesterday: 1,269
Totals
Posts: 192
Comments: 1,150
Tags: 27
If you don’t want to believe my figures, you can judge the popularity of the discussion by the number of comments.
Grand Bizarre incident Detector (272): How odd. I especially like the description of how awed the police officer was after visitng the FoF website.
March 20, 2007 at 5:13 pm
In response to “another name” (276)
Please understand that I knew the history of FOF BEFORE I joined. It never played a part of me in the school or when I left.
I did not leave FOF because of what was going on there.
I left ONLY because I could no longer efford my student payment due to the great expenses of my husbands health. He has Dilated Cardiomyopathy.
Trust me I did not want to leave the “School”.
I believe one needs the school.
What I miss the most is Benjamin doing the keys meeting. James talking about the history of the Egyptians and Marcus when he said his quotes. I miss the spirital feeling they were able to spread their love for the work.
I miss all the students, ISIS Center directors that helped transform my many shocks when I needed alittle extra help.
Actually I want back into the school.
Even though I was only a student for six months it has enriched my life. Before when I would work on my roses I would not hear the birds sing or feel the wind hitting my face.
Because of what I learned in FOF with self remembering and being in the present.
I now hear and see the birds and I can hear the wind high up on Oregon Peak and see the tops of the pines trees flowing in the wind. Yes I’m still asleep some but my machine has its seconds of being awake. Is that how my machine has verify my work. Yes.
I work hard at attempting in self remembering but my machine needs the school and students.
Was I a good student no to be honest the dresses would be off the second I entered my house and my jeans would be on. As soon as I would drive out of the gate at Isis I would turn on my CD player on high and listen to IL DIVO drivng home to Dobbins.
I have strong beliefs in self remembering and beliefs in the school.
To Linda Tulisso and Karen Johnston I miss you dearly.
In Friendship Always
Mary Battista
marys_angels@peoplepc.com
March 20, 2007 at 5:22 pm
U.S. Internal Revenue Code
501(c)(3) Exemption Requirements:
To be tax-exempt under section 501(c)(3) of the Internal Revenue Code, an organization must be organized and operated exclusively for purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3), and NONE OF ITS EARNINGS MAY INURE TO ANY PRIVATE SHAREHOLDER OR INDIVIDUAL. In addition, it may not attempt to influence legislation as a substantial part of its activities and it may not participate in any campaign activity for or against political candidates.
Organizations described in section 501(c)(3) are commonly referred to as charitable organizations. Organizations described in section 501(c)(3), other than testing for public safety organizations, are eligible to receive tax-deductible contributions in accordance with Code section 170.
The exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) are charitable, religious, educational, scientific, literary, testing for public safety, fostering national or international amateur sports competition, and the preventing cruelty to children or animals. The term charitable is used in its generally accepted legal sense and includes relief of the poor, the distressed, or the underprivileged; advancement of religion; advancement of education or science; erecting or maintaining public buildings, monuments, or works; lessening the burdens of government; lessening neighborhood tensions; eliminating prejudice and discrimination; defending human and civil rights secured by law; and combating community deterioration and juvenile delinquency.
To be organized exclusively for a charitable purpose, the organization must be a corporation, community chest, fund, or foundation. A charitable trust is a fund or foundation and will qualify. However, AN INDIVIDUAL WILL NOT QUALIFY. The organizing documents must limit the organization’s purposes to exempt purposes set forth in section 501(c)(3) and must not expressly empower it to engage, other than as an insubstantial part of its activities, in activities that are not in furtherance of one or more of those purposes. This requirement may be met if the purposes stated in the organizing documents are limited in some way by reference to section 501(c)(3). In addition, an organization’s assets must be permanently dedicated to an exempt purpose. This means that if an organization dissolves, its assets must be distributed for an exempt purpose, to the federal government, or to a state or local government for a public purpose. To establish that an organization’s assets will be permanently dedicated to an exempt purpose, its organizing documents should contain a provision insuring their distribution for an exempt purpose in the event of dissolution. Although reliance may be placed upon state law to establish permanent dedication of assets for exempt purposes, an organization’s application can be processed by the IRS more rapidly if its organizing documents include a provision insuring permanent dedication of assets for exempt purposes. For examples of provisions that meet these requirements, see Publication 557, Tax-Exempt Status for Your Organization.
An organization will be regarded as operated exclusively for one or more exempt purposes only if it engages primarily in activities that accomplish exempt purposes specified in section 501(c)(3). AN ORGANIZATION WILL NOT BE SO REGARDED IF MORE THAN AN INSUBSTANTIAL PART OF ITS ACTIVITIES DOES NOT FURTHER AN EXEMPT PURPOSE. For more information concerning types of charitable organizations and their activities, see Publication 557.
The organization MUST NOT BE ORGANIZED OR OPERATED FOR THE BENEFIT OF PRIVATE INTERESTS, SUCH AS THE CREATOR or the creator’s family, shareholders of the organization, other designated individuals, or persons controlled directly or indirectly by such private interests. NO PART OF A SECTION 501(c)(3) ORGANIZATION’S NET EARNINGS MAY INURE TO THE BENEFIT OF ANY PRIVATE SHAREHOLDER OR INDIVIDUAL. A private shareholder or individual is a person having a personal and private interest in the activities of the organization. If the organization engages in an excess benefit transaction with a person having substantial influence over the organization, an excise tax may be imposed on the person and any organization managers agreeing to the transaction.
http://www.irs.gov/charities/charitable/article/0,,id=96099,00.html
http://www.give.org/tips/tax.asp
Does you think that not only there’s personal dishonesty but possible organizational dishonesty, too? What you think/feel? Post it here!
March 20, 2007 at 6:19 pm
#277
Thank you Sheik for giving us these figures,
without which it would be hard to figure out the real impact of this blog on FOF members and others.
There is more cleverness, energy, and humanity here in this blog than in the FOF right now.
It has also revealed the courage of some, that were around us and I must admit , I was not hoping anymore to see something of that kind happening.
“Knowledge without courage is sterile” Balthasar Gracian
March 20, 2007 at 7:02 pm
After reading Victor’s post I said: ‘Hooray! Let’s make a revolution! Overthrow the Wizard of Iz, make him flee to Grey Eagle with the remaining devotees and claim back our land where we’ll live in happiness and freedom forever after!’ Then I remembered a few things about the results of Russian and French revolutions and the idea somewhat lost its appeal to me.
Whoever might be Robert’s successor, it’s hard to imagine on which ground they are going to unite the community. Will it be a return to the ‘traditional’ 4th way ideas? I can’t see the need for it. Going alone Robert’s line of interpretation of esoteric knowledge? I don’t think many would buy into it. Perhaps pay tribute to Robert’s #1 god Priapus and use Isis as communal orgies ground? Hmmm, maybe worth exploring..?
It looks like FOF as a community or school is a long way down the disintegration path of fragmented groups of ideas, beliefs, codes of conduct etc. The only man who was capable up to this point to sustain this fragmentation was RB. It is his divine or otherwise madness which held us under its hypnotic spell and gathered us together. Now, when he’s going down, he’s taking the ship with him. Can anyone see the constructive possibility of picking up the pieces and creating something new, fresh, alive, something we all would like to participate in?
FOF is Robert’s creation and his end is the end of this creation. Personally, I don’t feel the need of communal life, as beneficial as it can be. Having friends whom I can see often is sufficient enough for me. But in the village called Isis there are hundreds of people who live as a community. What do they do with the land that used to be or still theirs?
One solution (I understand it’s a bit premature but that’s where it seems to be going) is to sell the land, winery, art etc. and give the money back to those students or ex, who want their share in what was created by their efforts, time and money. Who else is worthy of this inheritance? Even though I don’t think it would make huge shares if all those thousands who passed through would apply…
March 20, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Post FOF life. Picking up the pieces. Being high on ‘liberation’. Grieving. Moving on. Where?
The ruling faculty which we submitted to our ‘beloved teacher’ is restored to its rightful owners. What do we do with it? Rush to reinvent ourselves in a new set of ideas? Find another, more worthy, god? The structure which used to hold our psychology is down. We are as we are, unprotected, stripped of our beliefs. What are our values now? Are we going to imitate someone again?
It reminds me of kindergarten days:
‘…and you, little girl, who do you want to be when you grow up?’
‘..I don’t know..’
Another girl says:
‘I want to be a teacher!’
The first one:
‘I want to be a teacher too!’
Yes, we are conscious beings. Consciousness is ‘our birth right’, ‘an open secret’, ‘dancing silence’, it’s ‘always been there’. So what do we ‘do’ with this gift of realization? Consciousness doesn’t ‘do’, it just ‘is’. To ‘do’ relates to that ruling faculty of the mind. And the mind is a result of processing innumerable impacts of information and impressions one receives during one’s lifetime. So, in the end, it’s up to the mind to lead the way in life.
There is more than one aspect to the phenomena of being human. Expression of this phenomena, after we find our base as consciousness (if that’s what we THINK we are), becomes an issue when you still don’t know exactly what to do with your life except for just living it the best you can. Somewhere Adya said in regards that many realized themselves but fewer are living that realization. What would that mean?
The secret, open or not, is still a secret for me.
And yes, I am just living it – what else can I do?
(No person, help me out here!)
March 20, 2007 at 8:20 pm
Mary Battista,
at this point you are really getting on my nerves.
I wouldn’t normally care ,but I dread the possibility that someone out there in search of answers, might even take you seriously and get somehow baffled by your empty words and one-dimensional view of the FoF phenomenon.
I am happy that , thank to the Work you’ve done in the FoF and its positive input on your life , you’re now able to that minimum awareness that allows you to “hear the birds sing or feel the wind hitting my face.”
I wish you to come out of your emotional numbness as well so , especially if you’re planning/wishing to come back to the School, you’ll hopefully be aware of the many under layers of the quite shallow reality you have apparently experienced so far .
My appreciation for what I have gained and received throughout the years is not tainted by my understanding of today’s reality.
Nor I should allow it to influence my next steps.
Presence is not the issue, the issue is the distortion and corruption of the teaching, the teacher, the pupils and the whole structure around them.
Some of the people you have mentioned have got their instinctive centre stout , indulgent and sadly decadent at the expenses of the integrity and reputation of the whole community.
You MAYBE knew the whole history of FoF before , but you strangely seem to ignore its descendent reality NOW, even after hearing our screams ( yes, it’s that nasty sound that you hear in the background of your chirping birds…).
So , please be quite for a while and let us do the informing from the inside , while you enjoy your deluded illusions and your spring wind from the out side.
P.S.….on a second thought, you and the FoF probably deserve each other,
in that case GOOD LUCK , you need it more then anyone on this blog.
March 20, 2007 at 8:42 pm
Shortly before I departed FOF(skating on thin ice) a house manager gave me a skewed hint that I would be going back home to be a liar. That stuck with me and I did’nt say anything about FOF. I think now the shoe is on the other(s) foot.
It’s a possibility that post 279 could rename him/her self IRS Eyes WIDE OPEN.
March 20, 2007 at 8:51 pm
A thought on finances:
It seems kind of obvious where the money go and who spends it, although it may be labeled differently. Most centers have to support themselves, – pay for advertizements, rent, buy center packages and host travelling teachers. There is not much financial support in most cases coming from Isis, except for Russian centers, where teaching payments were partially used to cover the rent – may be it’s not the case now, I don’t know.
Aren’t students ask to donate money to “support teacher’s aims at Isis”? Well, it is says it right here – support teacher’s aims, not your personal aims. It is clearly stated, and agreed upon. So when you give your money it seems very clear who makes financial decisions and buys stuff – it must be he whose aims you are supporting, right? Once Karen J. said it simply and honestly : Robert just spends. Nothing we can do about it.
Certainly, I had questions how all this endless donating benefits my evolution, after all I joined to gain something… Am I actually buying awakening? What are the “teacher’s aims” exactly? Was it ever his aim #1 to wake me up, as I heard so many times from older students? How come it is not my actual experience? How are expensive objects relate to one’s ascending soul? How auctions, lotteries, gifts and all this exhausting money collecting relates to one’s awakening?
Unfortunately, it didn’t seem true that his main aim was to “wake me up”, his actions just didn’t show much concern for individual students evolution. He was so unavailable and distant, surrounded by a circle of people serving his needs. Or – may be I just was unable to see a connection between his aims and my aims, who knows… To me his actions spoke louder than words, but who really knows what is on his mind and in his heart. Sure it looks like his aims have a lot to do with creating certain lavish luxurious lifestyle for himself, but – may be it just appears so to my ignorant lower self, and in reality all he is honestly trying to do is to wake us up, even when he buys another expensive outfit for his new lover or another teaspoon or lamp. I couldn’t understand. So confusing.
Someone said here that “his actions are uncomprehensible to us”. Oh, and lower cannot understand the higher… That sure explains it all and definitely helps to calm down cognitive dissonance…
What do we really trust in this life? Do we trust what we observe, what we can see or feel? Is it reliable information? Do we trust hat we think? Or do we trust what we were told? What IS the Truth?
May be we should trust our own conscience? I don’t know.
March 20, 2007 at 8:56 pm
I found Grand Bizarre Incident Detector’s post #272 about Robert at the airport to be very interesting. Just as interesting was the content of post 273, by Across the River. Perhaps most significant for me, however, was the coincidence of post 273 coming directly after 272 — in other words, a story about Robert followed by some cautionary notes regarding him and the Fellowship. “Shocks” cut both ways, I suppose.
Robert talks a good game, and seems to have a handle on certain aspects of intentionality and attention. But it always seems to be in the context of a protective group of students that provides an audience to keep him in character, so to speak. Does Robert ever go anywhere alone? What would the security camera capture if he went through this experience without the fawning acolytes eager to receive his next pearl of wisdom? Maybe he would be the same, performing, as it were, for C Influence, in whom he clearly believes. I wonder. But even in the account by Asaf, there are several examples of Robert judging “life” people: “These people are walking carelessly towards their gate. They do not suspect there is a challenge even to this moment–-to be present to it.”
I suspect no one has ever had the courage to tell Robert that his judgement is more repugnant than these people’s “carelessness.”
I guess the real contrast I saw between post 272 and 273 was how RB has always lived in an artificial environment, with the luxury of focusing exclusively on himself — no spouse, no children, none of the daily grind of living with the same people year after year, which is difficult, no matter how much you may love them. On the contrary, when people around him become difficult or don’t bend to his wishes, he simply disposes of them or pulls away. The “collateral damage” that Across the River refers to stands in particularly stark relief to Robert’s rather dainty philosophising about the “friction” of missing the Bolshoi ballet.
Finally, I found it ironic that, right before being asked to leave the plane, Robert and students were focusing on the question “How not to deceive oneself.” When the incident began, Robert began talking about the Absolute crafting this play just for them.
Self-deception? Hmmm…What do you think?
March 20, 2007 at 10:06 pm
Hello,
I am a former student that wishes to create a wiki that can serve as a repository of FOF history.
The wiki is just in the beginning phases, I would like to find some people, current or former students, who wish to help me get this project started. Once it is at an acceptable level of function, I will open it to be read by the general public.
If you would be interested in helping me, please send an email to FOFwiki@gmail.com.
About me: I joined FOF at the age of 21 in Chicago in late 1997, and was a student for eight years. I lived in centers in New York, Moscow, California, and Illinois. My experiences with FOF were almost entirely positive and while I am no longer a member, and have my own conflicts and ambivalences, I respect REB and the organization as a whole. I am creating a wiki because I believe the history of the school is very rich. There are stories that need to be recorded, and time is not on our side.
March 20, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Quoting 272:
‘If Influence C took the time to give us this shock, we must take the time to transform it. At this point, the key is not to resent this shock.’
‘This is also part of having outside help–these kinds of things too.’
‘Also, in these kind of situations I remember that now it is our turn to undergo friction. ‘
‘This shock was all planned even before we arrived at the airport. I marvel the Absolute scripted it for us. Compared to what he has seen, it is very little. We all stayed away from our machine’s imaginary picture of what should have happened.’
‘We are very lucky that it was an artificial shock rather than some kind of brutal handling which past schools have indeed experienced.’
‘One always has to take Influence C on their own terms, and that is how they will get us to Paradise. We are very lucky Influence C take the time to help us escape; who are we that they would take the time to help us? And why we of all others?’
Me, me, me, the tragic, noble, humble hero, oh!
March 20, 2007 at 10:40 pm
Is it possible that if everything in Robert’s life is a result of C Influence, then maybe this blog and everyone on it and all the comments are also from C Influence and maent for Robert to see and read?
March 20, 2007 at 10:55 pm
#278
“To Mary Battista Says: Linda Tulisso and Karen Johnston I miss you dearly.”
If you want I can give you their personal email, I am not sure they read all that stuff!!!
I was wondering how to approach this blog, telling everyone I have been in the school for almost twenty five years , and so on, or just telling anecdotes which striked me during that time and can be useful to anyone who reads it, or at least enjoyable.
So, here is one:
I was by that time living at Apollo, and had a appointement with a friend at the Lodge (at that time.)
Passing by the gate house, I saw Robert in a car driving the opposite direction. He looked quite unhappyand disturbed.
When I begun to eat with my friend, I told him about this factof seing Robert.
He was not surprised by the situation and explained it to me: He was, during the afternoon, playing tennis with Robert and at one point really struggling because he realised Robert would lose the game against him
Should Robert win?
Should he win?
He chose for the second solution, but he felt pretty bad about it.
Actually the lesson of the story was for me.
I think it was also for my friend who still remember it now after 17 years.
I hope it is for you too.
March 20, 2007 at 11:00 pm
Dear Friends around the world,
Last news ?????????????
Last night at our 31st Crystallization Anniversary Dinner, Robert was touched by the toast and wished to share it with all students:
“Let us toast to our first anniversary with the four wordless breaths, which enable each of us to be conscious beings. What one gains, we all gain.”
He also wished to say that he realized that the first crystallization opened the door to thousands that will follow.
In friendship,
Linda Tulisso
March 20, 2007 at 11:14 pm
“The ruling faculty which we submitted to our ‘beloved teacher’ is restored to its rightful owners.”
Are you joking? Do you think that taking away a symptom solves one’s problems? Do you think that RB going down is going to leave a community (FOF) that’s ripe for growth and change and spiritual growth. You’re still in imagination. Robert is only one part of the dysfunction. Watch the play of power that will probably occur, and watch how that play could really finish of the “community”. Whether one stays or goes, you have much more interesting work than how to make the FOF “community” continue. Maybe that’s where the real work will start. Also, I wouldn’t be so sure this is an end of the present play.
March 20, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Dear Rita – Re your suggestion “One solution (I understand it’s a bit premature but that’s where it seems to be going) is to sell the land, winery, art etc. and give the money back to those students or ex, who want their share in what was created by their efforts, time and money. Who else is worthy of this inheritance? Even though I don’t think it would make huge shares if all those thousands who passed through would apply…”
Nice idea – while I had a similar thought a few weeks ago, unfortunately, the laws don’t allow it: see post 279 IRS Eyes Wide Shut:
“In addition, an organization’s assets must be permanently dedicated to an exempt purpose. This means that if an organization dissolves, its assets must be distributed for an exempt purpose, to the federal government, or to a state or local government for a public purpose.”
So that puts some pressure on us to maintain a viable non-profit entity that continues to serve all of our needs, unless we are just willing to walk away from it all. In the past, that’s what we all did, just walk away, with the exception of a few who brought lawsuits that wound up settled out of court – essentially they were bought off.
But you know, it really is not about the money, that was given freely by most of us, and it’s gone. For me it is the loss of community, and the loss of innocence of conscience. Money doesn’t resolve that.
I have to say that for the past few days (I left earlier this month) I’ve been dealing with feelings of shame. Shame that I compartmentalized what I saw, allowed myself to not protest, to not stand up, to not be honest – this makes me ashamed, and makes it hard sometimes to sleep at night. I cheer on William as he writes, and give him hugs and encouragement and advice, but I wish that I’d had the courage to speak out instead of just walk away. What did I have to lose?!
Funny that when I first left, I wrote in this blog that I had no regrets – well, there’s my regret, that I allowed my fear and comfort to rule me, and then just walked away when the dissonance became unbearable.
my love to you all
Sharon H.
March 21, 2007 at 12:26 am
Jason Cryter (287): Great stuff.
How are you going to approach the project? I hope that your goal is to represent all the various sides of the discussion (of which we have seen a fair amount here), keeping it impartial and listing the good as well as the bad (ie. talking about the wonderful community, genuine spiritual work, as well as the cult accusations, RB’s cult of personality, including the sexual predation).
I can assure you that anything but impartiality and a full account will result in a challenge and subsequent deletion/change of the wiki (I have seen that happen to numerous wikis on spirituality, mysticism, and especially cult-like organisations, eg. Scientology or Osho’s organisation). As you surely know better than me, the wikipedia community is very demanding when it comes to objectivity and its moderators are incredibly good at their job, and at being impartial.
It is going to be a real struggle to write something that will stand the test of time, good luck.
March 21, 2007 at 12:27 am
That’s funny Sharon, because when I was “in” I raised my voice about several things I saw. First, I was told by RB that I was a “thorn in his side”. Next, I was told by some I was the most “negative person still in the FOF”. We all make the best decisions we can, and we have to live with the responsibility that we made them. They are all points in time. Fortunately JUST points in time, unless they are of the magnitude that we should examine them on a level of “cosmic crime”- that’s a whole ‘nuther bag o’ worms. RB said quite a few things that I don’t think anyone would dispute, one of which- when you see you’ve made a mistake, consider it (and it’s ramifications) and come back to the present and move on (paraphrasing of course).
March 21, 2007 at 12:44 am
Dear Friend Whose Name is Other (230) and Other Names,
I am still with you and have already left you,
I was never here but always stayed.
It does not matter where I go, I will remain.
Our absences are as forceful as our presences,
the body just moves on.
Are you asking me to allow you to crystallize peacefully?
That was not our initial agreement.
In or Out is the illusion,
reality is at your feet.
Affirming one is very different to affirming.
Affirming one and denying the rest is not affirming.
Even affirming a few and denying the rest is not affirming.
Affirming one’s self and denying others is not affirming.
Love has no boundaries.
If only one is denied it is not love.
Half goods are not good enough.
The wild noise in this common market
is better than any imposed silence.
Paying to be does not hold if one is at the same time paying not to be.
The sequence drops itself at the second word because there’s no mass to hold it.
Egoism doesn’t have the necessary strength to embrace the whole,
There’s no individuality where there’s no community.
The Individual or be, holds the whole,
microcosm, macrocosm.
Is it easy?
In or out?
Not easy anywhere but the struggle pays its worth.
We all gain what we’re after or fortunately, what we deserve.
That is beyond us.
And we each choose, knowing or unknowingly.
But we can’t continue arguing ignorance, once we know.
Some have never any friends but are never betrayed,
some stick to their friends but never know beyond.
Some become friends, in the beyond,
just different moments on the path.
In or out, if you’re affirming,
you’ll continue to look, hear, feel,
but you can’t really pray everywhere.
Some things, just take your prayers away
and you have to act. For most, they are just little things,
but one after another you get the big picture,
no matter how many years it takes,
and it takes too many years when people get used to gossiping but don’t talk.
The public arena is the stage that confirms the state if it is legitimate…in every sense.
In our times, a community and for that matter, a School, in which the public arena is determined by the subjective privileges of a few, a process in retrograde is taking place that is even lower than life, not ahead of it. Affirming is not the dance of opposites but the consistent affirmation of the whole. Can we remain together and struggle through the conflict?
March 21, 2007 at 1:18 am
Hello Clara Elena Gutierrez,
I found what you wrote very instructive.
I am not a member of the FOF. I was in an introduction meeting and still not sure whether to join or not. I have a close friend who is a member in the FOF for many years. He explained to me about what external consideration means.
I have a question; does external consideration depend on one’s degree of enlightement? I mean, isn’t there a point where one needs to have the level of an enighted paerson in order to know how far one can go with investing energy in relations with other people?
I used to live in a spiritual community before and what has been missing there all the time was that no one really knew what is beyond the regular level.
If one is enlighted it might be that he sees things that others cannot see and thus they cannot understand the reasons for his actions.
It is risky and edgy to allow that line of thought and let things run on the boarder line, yet for me a regular comminity has been quite insuficient after several years.
March 21, 2007 at 1:57 am
Wow – just read post 156 (Wizard of Iz) for the first time. Brilliant contribution – subtle fairytale – and you have devastated me.
I have to be careful how much I think about this, since I already feel quite unstable what with all I have discovered recently….
But it rings so true that we, for 20 years and more have so happily followed – and trusted – someone who simply believes his own imagination. GH always said, when it came to the more bizarre predictions and completely unverifiable statements of RB, he thought RB was being sincere. That’s a pretty safe statement, but of little comfort now.
Your post demonstrates how people can be so moved by trust, in large part because the ‘trusted’ believes what is in his head. Think about that for a time, then Kansas may really go bye-bye.
March 21, 2007 at 2:02 am
Another vague FAQ from the FOF Web site:
http://www.apollo.org/english/joining_a_conscious_school/faqs.shtml
(Q) What activities does the Fellowship of Friends sponsor to help its members awaken?
(A) The specialty of the Fellowship of Friends is self-remembering and the vehicles that the school uses to help develop one’s higher centers, besides weekly meetings and disciplines, are culture and the arts. Concerts, formal dinners and receptions, classical theatre, ballet—these are just some of the activities that the Fellowship sponsors for its members, as beauty and refinement have the capacity to nourish one’s latent soul.
However Comrade and others state that on top of the rather steep donations one must also pay to attend various large gatherings at the Isis property. This includes meetings, receptions, dinners, fund-raising auctions, raffles, and artistic performances.
So who is sponsoring what? From what is stated above, it rather implies that the more money one has to give to the FOF, the greater the chance one has of awakening – especially as one will be able to develop higher centres by attending more dinners, concerts, ballet! etc.
Am I missing something here? What about those students who can only afford to wash up? Clarification appreciated.
RR
March 21, 2007 at 2:08 am
GBID #272
Thank you for relaying that story. It is a perfect portrayal of the narcissistic dream the fof lives in.
Bizarre stuff happens to us all and in reflection we can make out some of the cause and effect elements of the event. How we respond to stuff says much about our character. Thinking the universe took time out of its busy day just for us does too.
March 21, 2007 at 2:36 am
John (297): If you haven’t made up your mind yet, I don’t know what to say. Either you are pulling my leg, or you are very very indecisive.
I used to live in a spiritual community before and what has been missing there all the time was that no one really knew what is beyond the regular level.
Hmmm. Maybe no-one knew what lies beyond the regular level because such level does not exist. In most of the traditions that I know of, enlightenment signifies the understanding of how things truly are, rather than the attainment of some super-human state of being.
If one is enlighted it might be that he sees things that others cannot see and thus they cannot understand the reasons for his actions.
I find it impossible to understand the reasons behind the actions of rapists and murderers. Using your logic, those people could very well be enlightened and beyond my understanding. Nevertheless, I prefer to see them behind bars.
March 21, 2007 at 3:10 am
After finding this discussion recently and reading so many incisive, candid and heart-felt posts, I was inspired to write a few words myself.
I wonder what it is that compels someone finally to leave the Fellowship of Friends after being a member for ten, twenty, thirty years. I’m particularly curious what it takes for someone who doesn’t buy the party line, who long ago stopped believing that the FOF was the “only way” and other such patent nonsense, but who nevertheless has found reasons to stay for all these years. There is much that is beautiful and much that is odious in the FOF, and I suppose one somehow manages to embrace the former and overlook the latter. (I know there must be many in this position, having been such a one myself.) Why one stays is one question, but for me the more interesting question is what propels someone to finally cut the cord and leave.
For a cult, you have to admit that the FOF is relatively benign and non-intrusive. At least in my day, as long as you paid your money, you could pretty much lead your own life, even living at Renaissance (I suppose that dates me!): there was nothing that was compulsory, you could study what and how you wished, you could think for yourself, you could even study with other teachers (so long as you didn’t spread it around!). If you had a group of like-minded friends around you, and didn’t mind keeping your true feelings to yourself, you could find reasons to stay, even if the school’s actual teachings were no longer serving you (if they ever really did, but that’s another story). Of course, sheer inertia and fear of an unknown world out there played their part in keeping you where you were.
(As I write this, I’m suddenly reminded of the story of Mullah Nasruddin, who, having lost his keys in the bushes, looks for them under the lamppost down the street simply because the light is better there.)
So what is it that pushes someone over the edge after putting up with so much for so long? Robert’s sex addiction? No news there (although the gymnastics described by inner circle facts, part 1 no. 294 are quite impressive). New whacko teachings from Big Bob (“the rhinoceros excreting the sequence”)? Nothing new there either! The incessant monetary demands? Unlikely that money would be enough on its own, for if you could swing the finances for this long, you probably could continue to do so if something else didn’t light a fire under you.
I left the FOF some twelve years ago after nearly twenty years of membership. I was actually quite enjoying myself there (painful contradictions notwithstanding), and it took having the truth rubbed in my face again and again to ignite my conscience and give me no choice but to depart.
First and foremost, I had the opportunity to see Robert up close when his comfort, his lifestyle, and his obsessive control over his empire were being threatened by an earlier round of students asking too many questions and seeking a more open dialog about how the Fellowship functions. It became all too clear to me that, whatever may have been the case in the past, Robert had little or no genuine interest in the spiritual development of his students. His priority first and foremost was the maintenance and feeding of his lifestyle, and he would do almost anything to protect it. This should have come as no surprise to me, having known him for some time, but it took seeing up close his cold, paranoiac and entirely self-serving reaction to pressure – pressure from well-meaning students – to awaken me from my dream of life in the Fellowship. It became no longer possible to pretend that he was any kind of teacher for me.
Robert has a most convincing act when he is on stage, and he is on stage almost all the time. If you want to see what he really is, don’t look to touching little set-pieces such as that of the arrest in the airport (no. 272), where he’s performing for a little audience (who publish every word for all to admire, photos and all), and indeed he has no choice anyway but to sit and wait (and pontificate). Look instead to how he acts when he believes he should be in control, and in particular to how he handles even the most gentle challenge to his authority. Part of that is seeing what kind of actions he instigates or at least tolerates on behalf of the minions who do his bidding.
Second, and perhaps more important, was that I could no longer justify my association with a teaching that had become apparent to me was so severely lacking once I had experienced the depth of other spiritual traditions and indeed the depth of an open heart. Much of what went on at the FOF was fear-based, notwithstanding the false patina of emotion that coated it. Divided attention, self-remembering and all of the subsidiary exercises used in the FOF are great tools, but frankly these would be considered preliminary exercises in attention in a complete system such as that presented in Tibetan Buddhism, as one example. Moreover, tools of attention when used in the absence of any real compassion and any understanding of the empty nature of existence seem to solidify the ego, rather than lead to liberation. Others have written here on what is missing in the Fourth Way or the FOF teachings at length and far more eloquently than can I.
Looking back, it’s difficult to understand how I can still feel gratitude for all that I learned and all of the beautiful times that I shared through this strange vehicle that Robert Burton created (or more accurately, that Robert Burton and his students created), and yet I do feel gratitude. I suppose it’s one of the painful contradictions that so many of us, in or out, feel. I wish everyone well, in or out, here or there. And if you’re still in and thinking about packing your bags, a few words from the old geezer poet, for old time’s sake:
AFOOT and light-hearted, I take to the open road,
Healthy, free, the world before me,
The long brown path before me, leading wherever I choose.
Henceforth I ask not good-fortune—I myself am good fortune;
Henceforth I whimper no more, postpone no more, need nothing,
Strong and content, I travel the open road.
March 21, 2007 at 5:38 am
Wikipedia does now include (contrary to my previous post) a web page dedicated to the Fellowship:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fellowship_of_Friends
As of today (Tuesday), the site appears to be in its initial stages. It includes an introductory paragraph (shown below), as well as placeholder sections on Beliefs and Practices, Controversies, References, External Links, Criticism, and a link to this discussion group at the bottom of the page.
The following is the only text posted on the page as of today.
——————-
Fellowship of Friends
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
The Fellowship of Friends is an organization headquartered in California, USA, registered since 1971 as non-profit religious corporation with state and federal authorities. [1][2] As of 2007, it has roughly 2000 members, about a third of which live around the property owned by the organization in Oregon House, California. Other members live around the world, in Europe, Asia and South America. [3] It is loosely based on the teachings of the Fourth Way, promoted in the 20th century by George Gurdjieff and Peter Ouspensky.
Beliefs and Practices
The Fellowship of Friends refers to itself as a conscious school, meaning a school for spiritual evolution. The word “conscious” is used because its leader, Robert Burton, is said to be conscious – to have attained immortality within the boundaries of the solar system, according to the Fourth Way teaching, and so represents a connection with conscious or “C” influence for members of the organization.
——————–
March 21, 2007 at 6:48 am
Sheik (#301) – Did it ever occur to you that you don’t understand the reasons behind the actions of rapists and murderers because they are too far below you?
Did you ever consider that you don’t understand the reasons behind the actions of RB because he may be too far above you?
You go on to say – “In most of the traditions that I know of, enlightenment signifies the understanding of how things truly are, rather than the attainment of some super-human state of being”.
Has it ever occured to you that in order for one to understand “how things truly are”, one has to be in a super-human state? In the school this state is called the “third state”, and it is as different from our normal “waking” state (second state) as our “waking” state is from our sleep state (first state).
This is the state in which it is possible to verify that the FOF is a real school, RB a conscious teacher, the existence of Influence C and, most importantly, objectivity about one’s self.
Howard W.T.Carter
March 21, 2007 at 9:05 am
Hey Medusa, lay down the snakes. Cut the lady some slack. She is just expressing her meager opinion like everyone else on this blog.
Where is the outrage over W.H.240 who turned despotism into cognitive dissonance?
FYI: maximum awareness hears the birds and feels the wind hit your face.
March 21, 2007 at 2:26 pm
Comrade (303): Awesome, it’s looking really good.
Howard Carter (304): Why so defensive?
First, I have quite a lot of experience with higher states to be able to make the assumption that no super-human state exists. At the end of the day, the FoF belief in the permanent higher state (awakening) is only an assumption, based on the word of RB. Not very strong foundations. Why not ask No Person, someone who in my opinion is already there. Also, it may be a good idea to read/listen to some Alan Watts, a man who has done more for the spiritual growth of humanity (and America in particular) than RB ever will.
Second, I don’t think that it is accurate, smart, or true to quantify humanity into levels. I strongly disagree that a rapist/murderer is ‘below’ me, or that RB or anyone else for that matter is ‘above’ me. Sure, many people will be smarter, faster, more spiritually aware, more good, more evil… which one of the billion human qualities quantifies them as ‘higher’ or ‘lower’ than me? Is there an ‘awakening’ level? If so, then would you please graph your progress along the line from your joining of FoF to today, and post it here?
At the end of the day, despite what a few megalomaniacs may believe, we are all human. And while it is very reassuring and ego-boosting to believe yourself superior to the rest of the planet (who could I be talking about?), it is complete and utter nonsense. It is far simpler to believe in your own superiority than to believe that we are all equal.
Don’t get me wrong, my ego is not hurt by your assumption that I am inferior to you, RB, and the rest of the FoF gang, there are many people who have/do/will believe themselves superior (look at the nazis). The question is whtether it is to their benefit or their detriment. I would say detriment.
Why not play a little game? I will spend the whole of this week believing myself superior to anyone who doesn’t study spirituality, while you spend your week believing that all people are equal. We can both post our findings at the end of the week. Deal? (I am serious!)
March 21, 2007 at 2:58 pm
Don Juan:
I think that what might hold one back from leaving the FOF is that there’s nowhere to go. It so happened to me that I was pushed out because I could no longer communicate what I thought and experienced AT ALL to my friends, there was just no space for me there. I was out long before I made my final decision to leave, but I was not awake (or so I thought), the years I spent were gone and I had no structure of any kind to support me in life. Yet I had to do it, I could no longer justify my staying by merely being in a nice safe company of people who would not hear me.
What brought me to the school was, as well as my fear and insecurity in life, the ‘search of the miraculous’. For many years I sincerely believed that I had to ‘live with contradictions’ and ‘do my work’ in order to achieve awakening.
Now, in this time of processing of the impact the school made on me, I can see that it did help me to wake up, as everything else I experienced in life. One last push I received in that direction happened just days before my set day for leaving, on a night when I tried to sleep in a very cold room. Desperate thoughts were racing in my mind: ‘why did I have to loose everything I ever wanted in this life, everything I loved and valued? How am I going to live now? I don’t have the strength to start a new life or give myself to a new teacher again. Where is my home, my husband, my child, my cats and dogs and fireplace? My faith, my values, my support? I have lost the opportunity to be a ‘normal’ human being, a loved woman, chasing all my life a mirage, an illusion which never was..’
I wanted to die, so desperate I was that night. I sat up in my cold bed, tears running down. I decided to let the thoughts pass through my mind while simply looking at them. After a while the thoughts subsided and I was left in an emptiness of my mind. I am not sure how it happened or what it was, although I can say it was a bit scary: I experienced a certain ‘switch’ of perception. Something opened its eyes in me and started to be. I stayed in the state of owe in the presence of this ‘realization’ (it’s the best word I can come up with), afraid to loose it or to fall asleep. Eventually I fell asleep and woke up in the morning together with it.
Was it the desired awakening? Am I a conscious being? Am I enlightened? How would I know? There’s nothing I can compare This to. And I don’t need to anymore.
When a baby is born into a life, it’s taken care of by parents. When you are born into your life in late 30s, you might feel unprotected and vulnerable, all your questions are still there were you left them. Your parent is yourself. Does it mean you know how to live now? No, but you don’t have to know, life is taking care of itself, as always.
Everything is the same, but you don’t have to struggle to be or to become, because you already are. You come back to the point from where you started, with the new eyes to see.
Isn’t it a universal, archetypal pattern, to come back home after years of wondering around the world, to regain what’s yours, to through out the imposers, making your home a place of rest and peace, opening the doors for others to come and hear the stories of your journey, sharing everything you’ve gained? And I thought it was just a story about someone else!
Do I have time to enjoy my life as a ‘normal’ human now? I don’t know, but what I have I enjoy effortlessly. Death feels so near now, as it did twice before, but now I am not so scared of it.
There’s a verse from my favourite Russian poet, my guardian angel, which I translated for you:
‘The place which used to be your refuge
Turned into a hole with a hanging rope in it.
Your friends are in the train, going away
They didn’t even notice that you’ve left the train.
You’re standing alone on the platform,
Fallen out of your cosy nest.
Now you’re ready for a spiritual life
But you don’t need it.
Isis save you!’
March 21, 2007 at 4:14 pm
Re: post #304
Dear Howard,
I believe that if you contemplate why you chose to equate the third state with a super human state, you might be able see why you so fervently hold to the fof’s (and fourth way’s) notion of a ridgid spiritual hierarchy.
All of your examples have occurred to me. I have considered them and I find in them a circular logic that permits only one answer if you convince yourself of their truth. I, myself, spent years believing in quite a few of these theories and concepts: higher/lower, subjective/objective, awake/asleep. Now, I believe in myself. This, of course, is the greatest of all possible fourth way sins as there is supposedly nothing reliable in one. That’s a great angle for maintaining the power structure.
If you’re thinking I’m just a sad sack of “I’s” bound for the moon, ask yourself why you believe that. Good luck in seeing through the illusion of the fof.
“Julius Caesar and the Roman Empire couldn’t conquer the blue sky.” – N. Finn
March 21, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Many of these posts are so compelling…and aside from a few biting remarks (Medusa, darling, you have such a nasty hiss when you want to– don’t let your snakes bite you!) I am compelled to return to this sinewy train of thought. Is it because the questions we are asking here, in or out, posting or just “lurking,” are nothing less than the questions of the future of life on this planet?: Are we going to fall into the dualistic trap of us vs. them, of the “haves” and the “have-not’s,” of spirit vs. matter, or are we going to embrace our responsibilities as more or less conscious human beings who can see beyond the warped mind-constructs which have allowed societies to condemn (or worse, destroy) others, while turning a blind eye to the raping of Mother Earth to satisfy the luxurious tastes of the “highest” (i.e. richest or most advanced or “luckiest”) amongst us? Perhaps we can see RB as a strange mirror for the indulgent —if refined— beneficiaries of ruthlessly capitalist corporations which go on reaping the riches of the world by enslaving some of its inhabitants. As one of the lucky ones, and after spending some time searching my own conscience on this blog, I am recommitting to giving a percentage of my income to social and environmental charities. We must believe that change is possible or we might as well just kick back and wait for a mushroom cloud to encompass the whole sorry lot of us. So in the meantime, let’s keep listening to the birds and feeling the wind in our hair, even if we’re going bald.
March 21, 2007 at 6:15 pm
To:The Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion
You are right, I have been hesitant and you helped me decide.
I called today and they invited me on Saturday eve. I was asked to bring with me the a first month fee and wear suit & tie.
You wrote:”I find it impossible to understand the reasons behind the actions of rapists and murderers.”
This convinced me because I asked myself if I know that kind of talk from somewhere. The answer was definitely positive, I have this kind of talk myself and it leads me nowhere.
I am in the stocks business where the best buys are done when one is taking the oposit direction of the rest of the herd. When everyone sell I buy.
That’s what I did doday. I hope to gain and if I lose I will let you know.
Thanks
John
March 21, 2007 at 6:20 pm
Yesri Baba
Different points of view are just an opportunity to shed light on one more aspect of the same thing , at the end there is nothing personal here, RELAX. I appreciate them as I disagree…
Her point of view is just a good illustration, in MY opinion, of compromised standards and blind self-deception, actually very common among the members :
hearing the birds …and ignoring the cries.
Believe me, emotional awareness goes to much longer distances.
One cannot call herself an “honest student” , while condoning and allowing corruption.
Tell me also,
don’t you find kind of ironical that that passionate defense is coming from somebody who has ultimately been turned DOWN by the voraciously materialistic side of FoF, in spite of her best intentions…?
Think about it:
She is the perfect EXAMPLE (again, nothing personal) of someone who had an honest, open, and eager approach and disposition towards the School and the Work,
AND YET the possibility of awakening and profiting from the community life was denied to her…because she couldn’t pay them the MONEY!!!!!
Isn’t that strikingly grotesque ?
“I guess that you’ll have to wait until your next life time, DEAR, sorry, but thank you for trying…”
It never occurred to you that maybe the idea of “payment” is NOT necessarily limited to cash contribution? And NEVER was intended to ?
( yes, Sheik, I agree : evolution should NOT be up for sale, and let me add that it shouldn’t be up for prostitution either !…)
And that there is no logic in believing that evolution should be so drastically and ungenerously determinate by financial possibilities?
Do you see how false and hypocritical that assumption really is ?
Your utmost efforts, most problematical circumstances and genuine willingness, at the end , don’t have ANY significance, -only money does-; NO EXCEPTIONS.
You’ll exist and evolve as long as you’ll pay
.. in cash , that is…
Have a good day.
March 21, 2007 at 6:55 pm
“All emotions are pure which gather you and lift you up; that emotion is impure which seizes only one side of your being and so distorts you.”
~Rainer Maria Rilke
March 21, 2007 at 6:55 pm
re post 309
snip start
We must believe that change is possible or we might as well just kick back and wait for a mushroom cloud to encompass the whole sorry lot of us.
snip end
Is there anyone out there that thinks/believes that the mushroom clouds are not inevitable? Off the subject but a great place to study delusional thinking.
March 21, 2007 at 7:16 pm
John (310): Good luck. I hope it works out for you.
March 21, 2007 at 7:28 pm
Note that the Wikipedia entry on the FOF has already been changed to the following non-encyclopedic text:
Beliefs and Practices
The Fellowship of Friends’ beliefs are based on the teachings of the Fourth Way, promoted in the 20th century by George Gurdjieff and Peter Ouspensky. Its members are taught how to divide attention and to sustain higher states of consciousness. Members also learn to struggle with and transform negative emotions first by not expressing them, and then by separating from them through the creation of right attitudes. Activities such as dinners, receptions, meetings, and artistic events are used by Fellowship members to be present and study their particular type of mechanicality, share observations with others, and make efforts to support the growth and development of the Fellowship’s headquarters in California, USA.
Self-Remembering
The Fellowship of Friends specializes in the practice of self-remembering. Founder Robert Burton has said: “One definition of success is being present as much as you can each day.” He also said: “Mr. Gurdjieff advised us that we need to create our own shocks. A little shock I have used for several years is to close doors by their handles, because mechanical parts of centers will use any part of the door. We can bring self-remembering to virtually anything if we wish to.”
Impressions
Members of the Fellowship of Friends use not only the transformation of suffering but also impressions created by art and culture to generate energy for self-remembering. Founder Robert Burton has said: “We talk about culture a fair amount, but its highest achievement is to lead to self-remembering. When we speak about art, we must remember it is a distant second to self-remembering, and we must use it as a medium to divide attention. Johann Wolfgang von Goethe said about looking at art, “In the end we return to a wordless beholding.”
The link to this blog has been removed, as well as the categorization of the article and several other things including a picture of the entrance to the property.
March 21, 2007 at 7:39 pm
The FOF a rich time; the ex-FOF a rich time. Don’t throw “baby out with the bath water.” Leaving is organic process – involves loss, and gain. So, natural stages of grieving definitely apply. Leave too early, feel the need to find another teacher. Leave just right and verifications, being and lessons still work – and become more “your” own. Step just prior-to-leaving will be same step just-after-leaving, only further on The Way.
Allons! the road is before us !
Song that helped understand joining FOF some 20 years earlier (in tiny wisdom), helped in understand leaving more than a decade ago … For fellow coots and assorted hippies out there, this is flip-side of 1967 San Franciso (Be Sure to Wear Flowers in Your Hair).
WHAT’S THE DIFFERENCE
Hey friend, wake up
I’m throwin ‘ rocks at your windowpane
Get out of bed, I got somethin’ to say
Pack up a toothbrush, sneak down your stairway,
You got no reason you should stay
(CHORUS)
Hey what’s the difference if we don’t come back?
Who’s gonna miss us in a year or so?
Nobody knows us for the dreams we’ve been dreamin’
So what’s the difference if we go?
But don’t tell your friends
They ain’t quite through sleepin yet
They’ll wake soon enough and prob’ly start to cry
Cause you left behind all the dreams they had for you
But don’t worry, someday they’ll know why
(CHORUS)
I have followed your journey
From the beauty of childhood
To uniforms of flowers that you wear like some disguise
Until you can’t hear them when soft songs are sung to you
You’re sleepin on a featherbed of lies
March 21, 2007 at 7:42 pm
Hello friends,
I have been reading this blog for a while but have never posted. For starters, I would like to thank you Sheik for creating and hosting this forum, and I would like to thank everyone who wrote with such depth and sincerity about their experiences in and out of the Fellowship.
I have not written because just about everything I have to say had been expressed by someone already, and with much more eloquence than I could ever attempt. Why am I writing? I don’t know, just feels like it today.
FOF has been part of my life for 4 years, or, rather, since I was a very sincere student, I should say that my life was part of the Fellowship for 4 years, as I was trying to embody the motto: fit your life into the School, not the School into your life. I have experienced all the magical aspects of the school that many people have written about: the beauty, the refinement, the states, the friendships, the sincerity, the insights into my and other people’s mechanics, and more and more. I came to the FOF when I was at the end of my rope, so to speak. My life was more settled materially and emotionally than it had ever been, but I had a feeling of being trapped in the death row, marching towards nowhere. The school seemed like my one and only chance at the time and, well, maybe it was, since I joined. I came armed with the notion “Suspend judgment”, and “The form of the School doesn’t matter”. I was really not into fine dining, and wearing dresses and high heels was certainly a form of voluntary suffering. I would have been content spending my entire life in the same pair of blue jeans, being in nature and with animals all the time. I have to say that this transition created very profound changes. Embracing things that I would have never voluntarily chosen put me in front of the simple fact that the ‘I’s are not real. Some of the most profound states were created in the company of the beautiful, sincere, deep, intelligent, artistic people who shared my passion for awakening.
I was in a center far from Isis and was sheltered from the inconvenient truths about the Fellowship. I knew that Robert was homosexual, and that there were some sexual scandals in the past, but now he was over it. Most of the things revealed in this blog were unknown to me. My trips to Isis were pure magic, third state throughout. I simply did not understand the tension and unhappiness that I perceived from some students at Isis. I remember being taken aback, when a student told me, with a note of annoyance in her voice: “Just don’t try to be a “good student”, please!” Why not??? What is so wrong with embracing the teaching??? I reasoned with myself that there is no work without the friction, and that the School, as a body, has its own lower self, and we just work with it, and it strengthens our valuation… Something along these lines.
Naïve as I was, I eventually had to come to the natural limit of suspending judgment. I, like Charlie Nothing (my apologies if it was someone else) expressed in a post way back, had to put some things on the shelf, and the shelf was getting overloaded. I have to say that going through the mental acrobatics of patching up the contradictions even felt like an accomplishment, conquering the “lower self”, perhaps. Coming from a communist-wanna-be country, I was sensitized to all forms of propaganda, and the tone of official FOF communications, as well as the “octave of attracting new magnetic centers”, with bookmarking, open meetings and all, set off my smoke detectors, but I successfully reasoned myself out of it, convincing myself that since this is the will of the Teacher, I must embrace it for the good of my own evolution (and, yes, suspend judgment).
Someone wrote before that good ideas and practices are so intimately intertwined with dogmas in the Fellowship, that it becomes almost impossible for a sincere person to see what’s what. For any doubt there is a ready-made answer, like: “This is your lower self”, “The lower cannot see the higher”, “This is feminine dominance”. So you feel that even having these doubts may undermine months and months of efforts you have made in the Work! The King of Clubs has crept in! Let’s roll up our sleeves and back to work, fighting the unreal ‘I’s from the devil! The irony is, the more sincere the student, the more he or she is likely to get brainwashed out their senses!
The friction became more and more grinding with the introduction of the Sequence. I was still trying my best, and failing, for the lack of sufficient effort, I thought. The feeling of gloom was becoming the constant feature of my inner landscape. Every time I tried to talk about it with the students in the center, my doubts bounced back off of their firm devotion to the new teachings. Well, I thought, I just need to make more efforts, because they, obviously, are “getting” it! Being a center director at the time, I felt increasingly like a fraud, finding myself in the position of having to preach something I didn’t understand and was unable to work with. I was hanging on though!
It all ended rather abruptly, with a phone conversation with my dear friend, then “in”, now “out” of the FOF. When I put down the receiver and stood up, I had an almost physical sensation of the rubble from the ruins of my shattered concept of the world tumbling down in a cloud of dust. The world stood clean and clear, once again a complete, delightful mystery.
I still didn’t know how I would announce my departure. Staying just did not seem feasible anymore. I dropped the sequence and enjoyed the presence like never before. I found, in disbelief, that speaking and being present came naturally, that being “in the jacks” did not stop the presence in the least, and that, in fact, there was nothing I could do to STOP being present. I vividly remember my last meeting, the light and the colors in the room were exquisite, and my friends were so sincere, reading their angles. They looked like children, and I felt love for them, in a very detached but intimate way. This was the last time I saw them. One student from Isis called after I left, asking me, in a sincere way, what it was about. And that was the end of my Fellowship adventure.
There was some email communication with the students after I left, and their perception seemed to be that I sort of died. Lost my valuation for awakening. Consumed by the lower self. One student wrote that if I ever decided to come back he would receive me with open arms… That really struck me, this conditional love. There is just something wrong about it, don’t you think?
So what now? It seems that there is some flushing and healing going on. There is a recognition of the persona that was created in the Fellowship, and that is breaking up and floating away, revealing how much the world was being processed through that. There is a lot of un-knowing and a definite aversion to filling the void with new, replacement concepts. At the level of the person, there is a lot of confusion and emotional pain. At the same time, there is acceptance and openness and aliveness. It is not a comfortable state. Sometimes I wish I had the clarity that No Person has, but it is not there, and that’s OK. For now, the answer to many of the lofty questions that the mind is apt to pose is “I don’t know”.
But, contrary to what I feared would happen upon leaving the Fellowship, the light is still on, and very much so, the actors are at their best, the play goes on, and the artful, delightful, and exciting play it is!
Love to all of you whom I know and don’t know and thank you for reading through this – I had no idea I’d be so long-winded!
March 21, 2007 at 8:09 pm
Here are some of my favourite quotes: “Know thyself”, and
” You shall know the truth, and the truth will set you free.”
Interestingly, there is nothing in these ancient sayings that tells to “produce”, “create”, “change”, “achieve”, “find”, “become”- there is no indication of any kind of DOING, but rather – seeing, acknowledging, recognizing what IS THERE, unnoticed or unrecognized. There is a beautiful simplicity in both sayings.
Dear Howard, since you have experienced super-human higher states in which according to your statement ” it is possible to verify… most importantly, objectivity about one’s self” – may I simply ask you – DO YOU KNOW THYSELF NOW? And also, DID THE TRUTH (that you have experienced in high states) actually SET YOU FREE?
Please be honest answering this. It is very important to be honest with yourself.
If the answer is negative – then -what are all those states worth? They are – just what they are – pleasant high states that pass. They are wonderful, but – what good are they if you still may be vulnerable to a smallest irritation and a slave to to fears, negativity, judgment and identification… And did these states help you to really know who/what YOU are?
This year you were told that you are “Higher self” fighting “Lower self”, some other time you may thought you were many I’s, machine, wordless state, steward, something else. Your identity went all over the place over the years of studying and verifying while experiencing high states. Whatever you wanted to verify you seem to have verified. Looks like you objectively verified that RB is way above you, Sheik and ex-students seem to be below you, murderers are way down there…
And where are you in this picture, and what actually are you? Do you honestly know thyself – objectively, as you say? Immediately, in your heart – do you know who or what you are?.. Or may be you THINK you are this another label that is believed as true this time around? Please share your understanding if you don’t mind.
I sincerely wish you to put your defence down, and acknowledge the simplicity of your own being, without high states, simply here and now, without all these learned mental labels and artificial hierarchy. You don’t need higher super-human state to simply be, live your life and know the truth of who you are. Truth does in fact set you free – from imaginary “you”.
PS. Rita, thank you for a wonderful post. Yes, it is like coming home, out of the mind jungle, to a place that was never really left.
March 21, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Dear All,
On Eckhat Tolle, Robert asked the student of the FOF (I did not hear it first hand though)to bockmark his books but not to read them!
On Adyashanti he said he is a “B influence” virus.
Quite some students exploring the many other “voices” talking about awakening were given the ultimatum:
A choice must be made!
What occupies me is not so much that
some students must have made a list targetting the possible “dissidents” but much more that Robert himself called some of them. That I know for sure!
Let us enlarge the scale:
I heard some interesting thoughts on how, surely, Adyashanti will benefit from meeting so many FOF members/ex members.
While in the School and still in the School, I thought for so long that I could just make my own mixture:
I take any tool (old or new in the FOF) for “Presence”.
I ignore what I can’t use, such as “out of the FOF, man has no hope”
Further more, I thought Robert’s private life was basically not my business.
Further further more, to make any “instinctive sacrifice” (money, sex, cigarettes, drugs )was rewarding.
Why is this meaningful set up not working so well any longer ?
I don’t think I am special so there must some larger “vib” imposing themselves here …
I believe Robert Burton, his School, his teaching did brought and still does bring out the best out of many of us and this, via a certain form, at certain times, and this according to a certain period in the history of the FOF (Time of birth, “New Age” thing, and so on…).
That it is not working so well for many, as a form, is a fact.
On a larger scale,
(What a freeing thought !),
it is irrelevant!
Some work was/is done, the efforts as well as the gains belong to the one who made/makes them…
Shall I illustrate for more clarity? I will regret it if I don’t…:
Anyone stepping “out” is incredibly “educated” (including the warning red lights stating DANGER!), well prepared to contribute elswhere and to gain from this elswhere.
Anyone staying “in” is still needed there and no-where else (both innerly and outwardly). Some work continues to be done.
Which reason will I eventually find to stay “in” (Spring donation being due, it is going to be satement!) ?
Which reason will I find to step out (Spring donation etc…, etc…)?
It seems it does not matter really. All will be gathered in a larger cup, the wheel of the potter keeps turning!
March 21, 2007 at 8:44 pm
This is a response to John, who asked a sincere question, but whose voice seems to be lost amidst all the noise. It is not addressed to those many readers who have already made up their mind about the Fellowship. Each person looks at the world through his own lens and finds what he chooses to see.
The Fellowship is not for everyone, only for those who can recognize its value. If you are looking for a community in which to intensely work and live, the Fellowship is one, made up mostly of people like yourself, sincerely trying to deepen their lives. Even the angriest of posters in this discussion have alluded to the magic of this community.
You are in a good position, as by reading this forum, you already know the most problematic aspects of the Fellowship. You can enter without naivety and focus on the issue that is most important –- how to connect with the God within. There are so many worthwhile issues, but this is what those of us in the school have chosen to focus on.
You already know that the Fellowship is not a perfect place, and has many — maybe all — the problems of other organizations. Perhaps perfect places to live and work in do exist, but I never came across one, although, admittedly, I have never visited any ashrams, monasteries, or convents. Human nature being what it is, I doubt if anything is free from conflict and confusion.
While most may find the Fellowship teaching bizarre and incomprehensible, you may find it mysterious and challenging to your logical mind. While many seem to find the teacher grasping and manipulative, you may find that he is inspiring and courageous enough to disturb your sleep. The account of the episode in the airport reflects very well the way our teacher consistently thinks and acts.
You can see from these postings that the Fellowship is a powerful, inexplicable place, creating powerful reactions in students and sometimes in former students for many years after they leave. There is a special energy that pervades it, which many have described as fear and imitation, but I would describe as love and the flow of higher influences.
If you can sort through all this, and it still does not dissuade you, then you may find that you may be a likeminded soul for the Fellowship. The sincerity of your questionings and your honest acknowledgment that you may not already know everything about higher worlds indicates that you might find your place here. You may not remain, but at least you would be able to see sincerely for yourself.
“Out beyond ideas of rightdoing and wrongdoing
There is a field.
I’ll meet you there.”
Rumi
A friend.
March 21, 2007 at 8:52 pm
On SYMBOLO:
Maybe it is just not Bobert’s role to promote ‘fusion’ (apparent DIAVOLO)
because some of his best “fruits” are needed elsewhere so they have to go! (SYMBOLO)
The potter is as precise as Robert!
March 21, 2007 at 8:55 pm
Medusa 311
I agree with most everything you say in this posting. Your response to her seemed particularly venomous and personal as was noticed by at least one other reader. Perhaps one is justified in responding harshly to ignorance but does it ever change anyone’s mind? Her postings are painful to read as was john’s. Who knows, maybe she is a woman #10.
It seems we are either preaching to the choir or pissing someone off.
My response to the birds and the wind was my continuous railing against the materialism of consciousness; that it is a quantity (more, higher, possessed, minimum-maximum). To be more accurate, but not completely ,it is quality ( texture, taste, void)
One comes to the understanding of why it is not spoken about except in terms such as unknowable, indescribable. The Tao that can be known is not the Eternal Tao. In my opinion this materialism of consciousness, the mind projecting it’s nature into places it cannot go, is the biggest obstacle.
March 21, 2007 at 9:12 pm
Regarding WikiPedia and the Wiki that I am organizing:
Several people have contacted me asking what a “wiki” is.
A “wiki” is a website that features “user generated content”. This means that the users of the site can edit and create the content of the site. It is different from a blog in that people can edit what other people have posted and create whole new pages or sections.
Wikipedia.org is a website that is a user created encyclopedia. A user creates an article about a topic, and others edit it. While there can be mistakes or biases, the end result is usually pretty accurate due to the “group editing” feature of the wiki.
Wikipedia.org does feature an article on the Fellowship, and I encourage people to edit and contribute, however, encyclopedias are for getting an overview of a subject, they are not meant to be exhaustive. In this regard, the project I am organizing is meant to be more like a book and less like an article. Such a “book” would not be appropriate on wikipedia.
You do not need to reveal your identity to participate. You may submit material via email anonymously, or even help make the wiki anonymously. If you do decide to tell me who you are, but don’t want me to tell anyone else that you are helping me, I will honor your request.
Please contact me to share history, facts, suggestions of topics to be included, and to find out how you can help create the site. If you are not comfortable using a wiki, and wish to submit content via email, I will work to incorporate your material into the site. If you want to learn to use the wiki directly, I can coach you.
Remember, the aim will be to record things in as factual a manner as possible, free of emotional subjectivity. How this aim plays out is yet to be decided. It is not up to me; a wiki’s content is made by you.
Best,
Jason
fofwiki@gmail.com
March 21, 2007 at 9:50 pm
I am a former 20 plus year FOF’r who left recently. I want to add one,directly overheard bit of info that may shed more light on the Finance theme that does indeed drive the FOF “Inner Circle” and RB,WHO DRIVES IT. I was privey to a telephone conversation between IC’s Karen J. and Kevin B.
The conversation went something like this:
“Well Kevin,you know that now Robert can no longer access the money from teaching payments
because the lenders for the mortgage loan secured by the property have put strict audit
restrictions on the loan and RB can’t touch it.
So now, we, of the Inner Circle, have to find new
ways to get the money that Robert needs to do the
things he wants to do.”
Within 3 months of my overhearing this conversation,Robert started his canned, rehearsed, tightly controlled “Teaching Events” with their attendant extra costs,so that one no longer got the Teaching for one’s monthly,10% and Twice yearly $750 voluntarily forced “donations”,but now could only get through the Gate House!
Now (and for about the last 4 years)students must pay additional, substantial
fees to get the Teaching. A teaching which,of
course,Robert says is moving and changing
faster and which he insists must be kept up with
or..else! You go to the Moon,baby!
Well, RB is right about one thing. Many students can’t KEEP UP supporting his extravagant life style, his numerous boys, his travels,his pink silk suits, his jewellery etc. And for those who want to buffer this, well, yeah he is very generous with those around him- he eventually gives things away (to his favorite boys) or auctions it off to raise more money. Generous! Especially since he didn’t pay for it to begin with- you, the student did.
So for those of you that have to make that $750 April ‘forced’ donation, or the next $200 dinner with Robert, enjoy! It’s going to a good cause. RB’s lifestyle, not yours. Me? Well, I am off to a nice vacation in Europe with my money. After all “Charity begins at home”.
March 21, 2007 at 10:18 pm
Someone gave me an angle once that a man #5 was present to the wind blowing, the smell of flowers, the singing of birds, background noises, people talking and he listening all at the same time. Lots of number 5’s on this blog.
March 21, 2007 at 10:49 pm
Hi Howard (304),
You wrote: “Has it ever occured to you that in order for one to understand “how things truly are”, one has to be in a super-human state? In the school this state is called the third state. This is the state in which it is possible to verify that the FOF is a real school, RB a conscious teacher, the existence of Influence C and, most importantly, objectivity about one’s self.”
Personally I have no doubt that the third state exists, having experienced it many times, as I’m sure most of us have, usually out of the blue and for one or two minutes at a time (sometimes longer). I have also experienced the kind of verifying that you describe. My interpretation of that changed over time, however.
The state is the state – emotionally intense, very present, wordless. Then the words come along: “Wow, I’m in the third state!”, “This is great”, “Now I really see that RB is conscious and the FOF is a real school”, etc. It became clear to me that, while the state is real, if temporary, all the words that the mind appends to it are irrelevant and not to be trusted. But the state can actually lead you to a deeper place beyond words if you let it.
Regards, Charles Taylor
March 21, 2007 at 11:24 pm
Warning! The following may be construed as Wit, but is meant to be taken quite seriously (at least in the Fellowship).
SHORT GUIDE TO MAKING SENSE OF THIS COMPLICATED WORLD
Fill in the blanks:
When you see … of something, it means …
2 = first and second work i of the sequence, be and hold
3 = one half of the sequence; (also occurs as a triangle) – means pyramid or thirty sacred work i’s
4 = the middle of the sequence, the fourth step, the interval, the lower self trying to take away our presence – but can also mean prolonged presence, four wordless breaths, after the end of the sequence
5 = the sequence, the first five i’s of it, with the sixth one standing apart from them
6 = the sequence, obviously
7 = prolonged presence or seventh heaven, after a sequence is finished
8 = prolonged presence, four wordless breaths (in + out = 8)
9 = nine of hearts promoting presence, of course
10 = the sequence (6 + 4 = 10); but it can also mean 30 (see 30)
11 = we don’t have a key yet
12 = see 6
15 = see 30
30 (or approximately 30) = thirty sacred work i’s, the imperishable stars that all schools in the past have used
44 = not a part of the new teaching, but it used to mean influence C
more than 44, many = the ten thousand idiots, many i’s unrelated to promoting presence
These are messages for schools from C influence. All schools in the past have known this. Life is not able to see schools because it is artificially complex. We are so different from life.
Also, 12 may acquire another meaning soon. Robert has been heard dropping gleeful remarks about how a cataclysmic event may strike in 2012. (Claim is corroborated by the Mayans.) Watch another prediction in the making.
March 21, 2007 at 11:40 pm
Dear Equinox (#317):
Welcome to the wonderful world of “I don’t know”! It’s a great place — I hope you decide there’s no place you’d rather be. For what it’s worth, it sounds to me as though you are exactly where you need to be.
The only point where my experience has differed is in the area where you talk about the I’s not being real. For me, embracing things I would not have voluntarily was a form of suffering. If anything, it had the opposite effect of showing just how real the I’s are. We like what we like. No amount of exposure to someone else’s tastes is going to change that. I understand that the I’s are not real in a more abstract way — that is, just because they arise does not mean you have to follow them. But that I think is different than thinking we can fundamentally change our likes and dislikes, which are part of who we are at a very deep level. There are many things that I like at an “essence” level that did not fit into the form of the school, and the FOF certainly was not able to “educate” them out of me, though I sincerely tried (with lots of pressure from those around me). It just made me very unhappy. Getting rid of these artificially acquired habits felt quite liberating when I finally left and tossed them overboard.
This is not to negate your own experience with the many I’s. For me, though, I came out liking pretty much the same things as when I went in. But then, I had been exposed to the arts and fine dining etc well before I ever joined.
However, I liked blue jeans and t-shirts before the fellowship, and I still like them now after leaving. In fact, I feel lucky to have a job where I can wear those to work. And when I get home, I change out of those “work clothes” and get into something even more comfortable!
But I also would not be surprised if someone who dressed casually before the FOF discovered they truly did like to dress up all the time and just never knew it. I couldn’t possibly understand why — I’m just saying I can see how it could happen.
Anyway, welcome! I really enjoyed your post, which was both articulate and eloquent.
March 22, 2007 at 12:17 am
Hello Friends,
Here is a short post.
You do not need to go anywhere,
nor do you need to join anything,
in order to find the Godliness within
your own true self. Once found you
will never lose it and it will
help you recognize it
(or lack thereof) in others.
If this is a puzzle from you
who is reading this, just ask
for help and someone on this blog
will surely come to your aid
publicly, or, better privately.
She’ik, thank you so much for this.
Now perhaps it is time to turn a page.
Those with poorer equipment will
have trouble with such long pages.
Beautiful Dreamer
March 22, 2007 at 1:09 am
There are thoughtful, intelligent, long standing members of the Fellowship who have decided that what they live with Robert is so far beyond what ‘life’ can offer, most the questions addressed here are irrelevant. Remember the toast ‘to our outrageous good fortune. . .’? It’s in the bone for them and they will be with Robert until the end, and they are free to choose this for their life. Others who suffer the questions (like I did) will follow a different choice and certainly a different path, also free to do so. For myself I’ve discovered there’s a line drawn in the sand.
I have a longtime friend who will stay with Robert and our relationship continues but is changing and may fail. The tingling in my chest lets me know a time is coming when I may have to say ‘I love you but no longer know the person who has turned away from herself. You feel lifted by Robert but I have seen you diminished, neglected, and grateful to your jailer. YOU I love and trust but I can see you less and less. I am your friend, always here if you find you want a true one.”
Above all we have to be free to make our choices. There is no entitlement of ease although the practice of acceptance allows us grace. I think the liberation I felt after leaving the Fellowship was largely just the relief of finally understanding my own personal responsibility. But I accept and agree that for another it might be supporting Robert for their ‘outrageous good fortune’, for someone else it might be warning others.
We learn! I’m glad for this window into the process of disentanglement and see it’s also useful to those like myself who are further down the road . . . new insights to gain and maybe some relativity to share. Somehow the anonymity keeps it pure for me at this time.
Sheik, what are you considering re this little blogster – you’ve been amazing, thank you!
A friend will be,
Across the River
PS to John: You seem destined to experience ‘another level’ and I’m sure you will. I hope this blog has prepared you to discriminate well.
March 22, 2007 at 1:10 am
Rita, regarding post #281, I think Influence C will have some say so in the fate of Isis and the FoF once Robert’s role is concluded, don’t you?.
After all, it was they who willed the school into existence and designed the role of RB. They have a bigger stake in it than any one soul.
Howard
March 22, 2007 at 1:24 am
Cry Baby,
You already are in a prison !
What’s happening girl after so many years in the school you can not take some pressure ? All that negativity in your postings where does it come from ?
What have you been ‘working’ on ? Wine ?
March 22, 2007 at 1:40 am
On Beautiful Dreamer’s request I opened up a new discussion board.
NEW DISCUSSION BOARD.
This discussion is therefore being closed, you will only be able to comment in the new one. The old comments will stay here.
June 5, 2007 at 2:32 pm
[…] For part 3 click here. […]