The time has come to move again.
For part 7 click here.
For part 6 click here.
For part 5 click here.
For part 4 click here.
For part 3 click here.
For part 2 click here.
For the article that I wrote so very long ago, and for the first and potentially most enlightening part of the discussion click here.
And as always, enjoy and have fun.
April 28, 2007 at 4:43 pm
To most,
Ultimate truth lovers?
Only what helps, in a given situation can be seen as valid option and can be called “truth”.
It canges? Well, yes of course, it changes! What does not ?
This is the “fun” of it!
To re-invent oneself, over and over again.
So, let’s be polite towards one another and with this I do not mean becoming fals to oneself and reduce one’s own interactions to “dog petting”…
I mean respect, courtesy and simplicity be considered, really considered before posting…
I regularily get a lovely reminder from Sheik, our host, when I read at the top of the page, his last words as his introduction to the blog:
“And as always, enjoy and have fun.”
Glad you exist.
April 28, 2007 at 5:02 pm
2b: that is the shame of the fof and what I/we have to live with, it’s beyond benign, I/we were trying to put our energy, time, strength, commitment into a truly noble endeavor.
That it could have been so co-opted by rb is sad , painful and probably criminal, as witnessed by this blog.
I find this blog part of my healing process, giving voice to that in me which represents the noblest reasons for being part of a School.
And thanking all of you for giving voice to that which is painful and difficult….
Do i feel like a fool for having been used? absolutely…
how is it that I can witness these and countless other examples of deplorable, despicable behaviour in humanity and still…
I am happy to say..
In my heart of hearts, I still believe in that dream of people coming together, working together to build a vision of what we want our world to be.
go figure..
the gods are quite frankly, stark raving mad
April 28, 2007 at 5:14 pm
Dear friends,
I invited you to read these words….
‘All there is is this’
‘SEEKERS BEWARE … this rare, radical and uncompromising communication leaves you with nowhere to go. If there is a readiness to hear, this is the first and last message.’
‘Doctrines, processes and progressive paths which seek enlightenment only exacerbate the problem they address by reinforcing the idea that the self can find something that it presumes it has lost. It is that very effort, that investment in self-identity that continuously recreates the illusion of separation from oneness. This is the veil that we believe exists. It is the dream of individuality.’
Out of all the many awakening that have been described to me, it is continuously confirmed that one of the first realisations that arises is the seeing that no-one awakens. And yet we see that the majority of teachings, both traditional and contemporary, are constantly speaking to an apparent separate seeker (subject) and recommending that in order to attain enlightenment (object) they should choose to meditate, self-enquire, purify, cultivate understanding, still the mind and the ego, surrender, be honest, seek earnestly, give up seeking, do therapy, do nothing, be here now, and so on . . . the ideas are as endless and as complicated as the mind from where they are generated.
These recommendations arise from the belief that the “enlightenment” of the “teacher” has been attained or earned through the application of choice, effort, acceptance or surrender, and that other seekers can be taught to do the same
Of course there can be nothing right or wrong with earnest seeking, meditation, self-enquiry, understanding and so on. They are simply what they appear to be. But who is it that is going to choose to make the effort? Where is the effort going to take the apparent chooser to? – where is there to go if there is only oneness? If there is no separate individual there is no volition, and so how can an illusion dispel itself?
There is no person that becomes enlightened. No-one awakens. Awakening is the absence of the illusion of individuality. Already there is only awakeness, oneness, timeless being, radical aliveness. When the dream seeker is no more it is seen (by no-one) that there is nothing to seek and no-one to become liberated.
Here is oneness, the realisation of wholeness that cannot be attained or owned. This is the awakening in which the awareness of what is arises together with the dreaming of that which cannot be known. There can be a dance between dreaming and being, and in that dance there can be a return to the fascination of personal ownership.
However, the realisation that the dream seeker is also oneness is liberation, the uncaused, impersonal, silent stillness which is the celebration of unconditional love. This is all there is.
There is no me or you, no seeker, no enlightenment, no disciple and no guru. There is no better or worse, no path or purpose, and nothing that has to be achieved.
All appearance is source. All that apparently manifests in the hypnotic dream of separation – the world, the life story, the search for home, is one appearing as two the nothing appearing as everything, the absolute appearing as the particular.
There is no separate intelligence weaving a destiny and no choice functioning at any level. Nothing is happening but this, as it is, invites the apparent seeker to rediscover that which is . . . the abiding, uncaused, unchanging, impersonal silence from which unconditional love overflows and celebrates. It is the wonderful mystery.
External link
* The Open Secret Tony Parsons Home Page
ps Thank you NO PERSON for all your interesting messages on this blog.
April 28, 2007 at 5:39 pm
I thought it could be of interest.
Christopher Hitchens: God Is Not Great
posted by alex
on Apr 27, 2007 – 07:28 AM
——————————————————————————–
‘I do not think it is arrogant of me to claim that I had already discovered these four objections (as well as noticed the more vulgar and obvious fact that religion is used by those in temporal charge to invest themselves with authority) before my boyish voice had broken. I am morally certain that millions of other people came to very similar conclusions in very much the same way, and I have since met such people in hundreds of places, and in dozens of different countries. Many of them never believed, and many of them abandoned faith after a difficult struggle. Some of them had blinding moments of un-conviction that were every bit as instantaneous, though perhaps less epileptic and apocalyptic (and later more rationally and more morally justified) than Saul of Tarsus on the Damascene road. And here is the point, about myself and my co-thinkers. Our belief is not a belief. Our principles are not a faith. We do not rely solely upon science and reason, because these are necessary rather than sufficient factors, but we distrust anything that contradicts science or outrages reason. We may differ on many things, but what we respect is free inquiry, openmindedness, and the pursuit of ideas for their own sake. We do not hold our convictions dogmatically: the disagreement between Professor Stephen Jay Gould and Professor Richard Dawkins, concerning “punctuated evolution” and the unfilled gaps in post-Darwinian theory, is quite wide as well as quite deep, but we shall resolve it by evidence and reasoning and not by mutual excommunication. (My own annoyance at Professor Dawkins and Daniel Dennett, for their cringe-making proposal that atheists should conceitedly nominate themselves to be called “brights,” is a part of a continuous argument.) We are not immune to the lure of wonder and mystery and awe: we have music and art and literature, and find that the serious ethical dilemmas are better handled by Shakespeare and Tolstoy and Schiller and Dostoyevsky and George Eliot than in the mythical morality tales of the holy books. Literature, not scripture, sustains the mind and—since there is no other metaphor—also the soul. We do not believe in heaven or hell, yet no statistic will ever find that without these blandishments and threats we commit more crimes of greed or violence than the faithful. (In fact, if a proper statistical inquiry could ever be made, I am sure the evidence would be the other way.) We are reconciled to living only once, except through our children, for whom we are perfectly happy to notice that we must make way, and room. We speculate that it is at least possible that, once people accepted the fact of their short and struggling lives, they might behave better toward each other and not worse. We believe with certainty that an ethical life can be lived without religion. And we know for a fact that the corollary holds true—that religion has caused innumerable people not just to conduct themselves no better than others, but to award themselves permission to behave in ways that would make a brothel-keeper or an ethnic cleanser raise an eyebrow.’
April 28, 2007 at 5:49 pm
Living the Contradiction 5
— between “you cannot do” and “you can do”
The above contradiction is at the basis of the 4th way system and most people have long found a way around it by making an exclusive choice of one or the other. In this Blog also most have completely lost even the possibility to consider the possibility that “they cannot do” that “everything happens”.
Of course the reason for that is that we have been programmed in a western culture, in India or China the other side would certainly be chosen exclusively…. to avoid the contradiction.
I certainly was a “doing machine” before the events in Egypt, but I had to be given a very definite lesson to learn to incorporate the other pole. First for several weeks in Coma I was given the most profound lessen of “you cannot do” because I was aware of all that was going on around my bed, for example the two doctors who walked up and down saying “He probably won’t make it”.
Or when I came out of the Coma and had to so deeply accept the fact that “I cannot do” anything to bring Cassandra back.
But it did not stop there, when I came to ISIS I “could not do” anything to avoid being the focus of so many girls who really were driven to care for this helpless, cute newborn baby that was me. Even Rowena Taylor with whom I had hardly ever talked up to that point, invited me to her home and wanted to convince me that betraying her husband was nothing unusual, as she was doing this since 20 years.
I was really very weak at that time, “just watching and wandering” what would come next and it even became more strange. Shortly after I had refused Rowena’s offers, fate made it happen that Asaf with his lack of conscience, asked Rowena to investigate my sex-life as apparently she had been the fellowship liaison for sex-issues before and had been in charge to check if boys RB wanted to be with were AIDS free.
So dutifully and certainly without seeing any contradiction she called every girl I had been seen with and interviewed them about their relationship to me. If I had not been so weak at that point I would have gone over to her house and spit in her innocent face. But instead I wrote my first letter to RB narrating the story. A few days later Wayne Mott dutifully called me to tell me that RB had decided to give me a “Medical leave of Absence” as my letter to him was “TOO VULGAR”.
Rowena ! it does not take an Oracle for me to know what kind of Expert you are, you are a wolf in sheep’s clothing and one of the worst results of FOF education, a smiling face that has no scruple to turn around and hurt anyone if you perceive it is to your advantage.
In this respect the status quo was has always been continued by sheep…… what makes it more difficult to see, is because there are different sheep. There is always only a very small percentage of “aggressive sheep” like HC, ”Becareful” or the FOF students behind this, then the larger percentage of “real sheep” the Yes-Sayers and followers of orders, and the “Intellectual sheep” like “Just Observing” that in fact are “Just Judging” and “Just doing mental masturbation” but believe they are so clever and objective. And then there is the largest group of “silent sheep”, which for the most diverse reasons just follow and are silent. For them maybe the word from Rodney Collin might still have some awakening power: “The subtlety of the excuse will not be taken in consideration”.
Certainly if you keep hanging on to this rotten club, you are dumping all your high aspirations with which you started this work.
All these event are a crossroad and these are the moments where “you can do” until soon the gates are closing again and you are back for a long time “where everything just happens” and “you cannot do”.
“Unless the weeds are removed neither plants nor flowers can grow”
Here are some pictures from my flowers last week
http://www.flickr.com/photos/iloveyou2/sets/72157600135447901/show/
Kiran@beingpresent.net
April 28, 2007 at 7:01 pm
Dear Friends, Teachers All, Briefly, I am half-way through a booklet called Free At Last by Daniel Greenberg. It is about an experimental school for children ages 4 to 19. As I read I am chapter by chapter being blown away by the similarities to the fof as a ” School “. As above, so below?
Rarely has my lunar composure been so disintegrated. There was no other possibility for me in the moment but to hurry down to the office to get this info out to you all. The blog stew is bubbling over. How did this back burner get turned on so high? …..I have a vision. Please check this out and see if you get the same one. It is Perfect. It fits, or I have not writ one word today.
April 28, 2007 at 7:11 pm
“Teleological” reasoning is a process of reasoning in which the result to be reached controls the process used to reach it.
If the result to be reached is “not losing the school,” the reasoning process used to reach that result will not admit information that might lead to a different result.
Teleological reasoning is not free reasoning. Something to keep in mind.
April 28, 2007 at 7:32 pm
BBWolf # 392 – I agree wholeheartedly! I suppose for a lot of leaving students there may need to be a period of grieving, adjustment and / or coming to terms with the situation. Once this is past there is no need for regret, just an appreciation of the fact that what happened (what we attracted?) brought us to where we are now, and that there is a lot more to explore, now we are wiser and more self reliant. I experience some discomfort about the bloggers who are talking about getting some kind of history of the FOF up and running. I understand that the motivation behind this may be to inform ‘prospective students’ of the full facts, but we need to acknowledge the potential consequences on ourselves; I envisage a number of individuals making this their new purpose in life; they may end up stuck in the role of ex-cult members wanting to save others, which may not be too dissimilar to the position they were in before. When I left the fof, I kept a journal of quotes that seemed meaningful at the time, this one seems relevant:
“Now I stand at the end of one life and on the threshold of another. Contemplating. Weighing. About me lie the ruins of a life. Instead of blind faith – directness, unbounded energy, and instead of unclearness I now have the knowledge that comes from experience; work that is limitless in its scope and significance” Agnes Smedley
April 28, 2007 at 7:45 pm
If someone wants to set up a webforum, it could be done for free in a number of places. One place that works is eAmped.com — the only requirement is that the owner give their name and email address. If you want alternatives, try googling “free forums.”
Advantages are that it’s easier to keep track of what you read (things get marked “read”), there is threading, so it’s easier to follow specific topics or questions.
K
April 28, 2007 at 7:46 pm
bruce , paul and others
of course i am not indulging in a “wierd sense of humour’ and that statement is proof of the fact that you simply do not understand, INCLUDING all the other withering life people, (and half life people/ex members), , , , , , you simply do not understand the sheer effort required to reach my stage, (and even greater effort in my case as i guide others in the fellowship, emulating roberts shining example of benevolence).
maybe you can remember my words of pure, holy, succinct advice to you previously, EMULATE ROBERT.
you sarcasticly say, ‘magnanimous,’ proving your low form of ‘wit,’ as you fail to apprieciate my immense magnanimity in using my hard won divine energy to succour others. as again robert provides succour to so many despite the fact that he, (despite his pain and suffering), will receive back from a portion of worthless moon fodder only negativity. BUT not all of his seed falls on stony ground.
sarcastic life people, like bruce and paul, could not sustain the work required even to begin to understand the true path that i follow BEYOND the 4th way.
as a successful elite athlete i had experience of hard physical pain, i had learned to cherish the gift of pain, (as robert showed me he does), i can pass through the pain barrier wherever it occurs, mental, psyscial, emotional, etc.
you have to embrace difficulty to achieve a higher plane of consciousness. I KNOW that through roberts grace as chaperon I CAN become one of the 7, and that is an achievement that only the elite ‘workers’ can possibly attain.
one of roberts recent messages to us says it most beautifully;WHEN A MAN HAS RECEIVED THE HOLY FIRE OF CONSCIOUS COMMUNION WITH GOD, WHAT LIES BEFORE HIM IS NOT PEACE BUT GREAT LABOUR. (The Philokalia)
and so i labor on – INSPIRED!
i pray that these words will inspire otherworkers to greater effort.
April 28, 2007 at 8:58 pm
I don’t find the words of Tony Parsons much more inspiring than those of the 4th way or Robert Burton.
“there is no seperate intelligence weaving destiny and no choice functioning at any level.Nothing is happening but this…”
HOW DEPRESSING!
Happy to be alive, happy to have chosen to leave to FOF and happy to feel that there IS something more than JUST this.
Moonfood
April 28, 2007 at 9:41 pm
Hello All,
As a supplement to my last post about the “soul-less-ness” of Fellowship members 7/356, another thought occurred to me. Again, it’s probably been said before, but it helps me to express it.
The thought is – “In order to leave the Fellowship, you have to BE somebody.” (You have to exist as a responsible full fledged adult).
Why is that?
Once you have given up your soul in the FOF, you actually cease to be a responsible full fledged adult – you become a “student”, with a body type, center of gravity, alchemy, chief feature, lifetime photograph, and a “school” history of payments, centers and roles you have been in, spouses/relationships/children, etc. You are asked to fit your life into the school, whereupon it ceases to have a separate existence. You are in this role for your entire natural life.
Even if you learn “unpleasant facts” about the Fellowship, and even if your conscience is painfully aware of the problem, you cannot really muster the force necessary to escape the situation until you GIVE YOURSELF PERMISSION TO EXIST, and you regain trust in your own thoughts, feelings, and judgments. It is that process, the regaining of your soul, which takes the time – sometimes a long time.
And only you can do it.
We are fortunate to be able to witness the process beginning to unfold in Elena, William H., and others right here on the blog. The process is ongoing in all of us who have regained our lives.
Charles
April 28, 2007 at 10:30 pm
re my #375, and other things
Ex-Lax (384):
You’ve misinterpreted my post and my intention by jumping to the conclusion I’m gay-bashing. (I said, “I mean, let’s face it–it’s not a coincidence that, whatever else it may be, the Fellowship has always had a form that appeals to a gay man, populated by members who feel the need to act, in certain respects, like a gay man.”)
Both references to “a gay man” were intended to refer specifically to Robert, not all gay men. By the “need to act, in certain respects, like a gay man,” I was not referring to engaging in sex with Robert, or to sex at all (although, in the context of this blog, I can easily see how it would be assumed otherwise). I’m well aware that the vast majority of those who have had sex with Robert are not gay, and that their cooperation has not been due to any desire to “act like a gay man.” I have some personal experience in that area.
I have no problem whatsoever with homosexuality, yours or Robert’s, and happen to believe that anyone who makes a moral judgment about homosexuality per se is a foolish prig (including that “Robert” who expressed his belief in an earlier post that gays can’t become “conscious,” or some such rot). Nor do I suggest any universal truths about gay men. But I’ve been on this earth long enough to notice that there are certain behaviors and predilections common to a fair number of gay men, without jumping to the conclusion that all gay men act that way, or that all men who act that way are gay. If you believe that Robert’s tastes and nonsexual behaviors, which have strongly influenced the form of the FoF, have nothing whatsoever to do with his sexual orientation, I would frankly be very interested in hearing from you, as a gay man, your point of view about this. For the moment, though, I don’t believe it’s a coincidence. I don’t presume to know why, nor do I judge it. (Nor is it a particularly original observation. I recall, a few decades ago, when a friend, Gary B., laughingly told me that, when he went to his first meeting, and saw Robert and all the men with their purses, etc., he thought the Teacher was gay! “Imagine that!” he laughed. “Silly me!”)
BBWolf (392):
I would respectfully take issue with your assertion that you ought not to be deprived of your “right” to drive a gas guzzling truck, and that there is no right or wrong except for the individual, in discussing your view that people should be free to experience the FoF. While reasonable people can differ about exactly where to draw the line about gas guzzlers–should cars getting less than 20 mpg be taken off the road? less than 25?–yours is the attitude that has brought us global warming, and any number of other phenomena that make life unpleasant for everyone except the person who imagines he has a “right” to do what he pleases without regard to the consequences for others. I sympathize with your belief that people shouldn’t be prevented from joining the FoF if that’s what they want to do, but I also believe in society’s obligation to try to prevent fraud, deception, and predation. If you want to walk around Miles at the gate, that’s OK with me, but preventing Miles from speaking truth at the gate, not so much.
Crouching Tiger (395):
Don’t assume that working without an intellectual system is spiritual snobbery or naivete. You may not feel ready to do so, and that’s fine by me. Going beyond that, to making the assumption you do, is itself no more than spiritual snobbery and naivete–i.e., if you cannot practice that way, then no one else can, or at least no one that you yourself have not acknowledged to be sufficiently advanced.
Perhaps you can let go of wondering whether I am a snob, or you are snob, along with the rest of it.
Gate, gate, paragate, parasamgate, bodhi svaha.
April 28, 2007 at 10:30 pm
#75: Elena: I am not trying to influence you, I am stating my point of view as a friend. I understand your sorrows. What makes you think that what I wrote had any hidden agenda for you to be embrace the Fellowship again?
#87: Anony’mouse’: I agree to disagree. I made the choices because I wanted something. If there hadn’t been a want, need, greed on my part then there would have not been any hook on me. I made teaching payments because I wanted to remain in the Fellowship I bought a ticket for the ride.
You may see it differently to me but I cannot change that. (am I influencing you too? I hope not)
Alexis
April 28, 2007 at 10:34 pm
#397: “What attracted me to the FOF was the quality…” Exactly, I left my prospective student meeting floating on cushion of air.
OP #2 “In my heart of hearts, I still believe…
Me too!
April 28, 2007 at 11:19 pm
Dedicated to our dear beloved Teacher,Conscious Being,Crystallized man # 7 (almost 8),Nine of Heart and fully evolved angel in the human body,his Holiness Robert Burton.
The Fellowship is sinking
but Robert doesn’t care,
he busy with his anus
he lost his mind there..
He going back to Egypt
to find hidden keys,
he test those keys with mouth
by scratching up on teeth..
The yanger “key”-the better
and great if there are three,
but older “key” will matter
if yanger has “Shirt Be”
April 29, 2007 at 12:41 am
Here are more work I’s I hear from many students while dicussing the blog:
• These people are not credible. They are lying. They are negative losers
• I want to build the school
• I want to die in the school
• Robert is not the school
• This is Robert’s school
• So, what it is not my business!
• It is RB’s right to have his private life the way he wants it
• They are adults and know what they are doing, nobody is forcing them
• The attitude toward the teacher is a reflection of the attitude to your own higher possibilities
• You still can work on yourself and take responsibility for yourself
• Shut up and be in the moment
• Shut up and let me self-remember!
April 29, 2007 at 2:30 am
Hey, Sheik, don’t lower yourself to the type of inconsiderate namecalling, there is already too much on this blog!
It is rather hypocritical dont you think that only when a member leaves he gets praise for his decisions, and not the probably equally sincere current member.
So get a grip, we are all in the same boat after all!
April 29, 2007 at 3:24 am
“There is no me or you, no seeker, no enlightenment, no disciple and no guru. There is no better or worse, no path or purpose, and nothing that has to be achieved.”
He left out: There is only the book agent, the lecture fee and the other things linked to becoming a “profit”.
April 29, 2007 at 3:29 am
Thank you all for the conversations, poems and comments. I was a member of the Fellowship of Friends from 1976 to 1981/2. I was young when I joined the FOF and it was during a time when some Centers (in the Midwest) were quite Puritanical. Anyway, I am using the name “Mind the Gap” because I have a “gap” in my life history. The time in the FOF was real and the friends we made in the FOF were special but how do you explain being shunned and having a gap in your life history, a lack of lifelong friends or acqaintances that you see from time to time.
It is a sort of Resume with an “mmmm” during a certain phase in your life. It has been a long time since I have been a member but it is a part of my life that I haven’t shared with people outside of the “School”. I struggled and left for my own reasons and always felt that it was my own inablility to be the type of student that I saw as “the good student”. However, I know that there were some strange and very sad situations in the FOF but I left before S. Saunders and Miles left the school or these situations were disclosed. I don’t want to go on about my story but I so like hearing from all of you. If a “historical site” is created, I would like to contribute.
I discovered this site one week ago and it has made me think again about organizing and writing about those years in my life when I was in the FOF. I am now 53 years old, a mother of two boys, 15 and 13 years old. I have not communicated with them about my time with the FOF but I would like to place this in context for them. I have a very loving husband and our connection is with laughter, love and living.
Thank you, Sheila
April 29, 2007 at 3:39 am
Dear Op says (2) and all others who are taking time to be here. Thanks.
Thanks for expressing yourself. Your words are like mine. I feel and I know this is part of going through the process of leaving, digesting and accepting this ‘Play”.
I am very happy that this is an available medium and wish that everybody before joining would come across this info. I have gained a lot in my years in the fof (who would not: working 16-18 hours a day, making tremendous efforts, never doing enough, always more was needed…many beautiful people, the promise of the beautiful community ).
On the other side many of my years have gone by and I have no college fund for my children, nor retirement (yet)…I have left family and friends behind and it hurts. I hurried form one octave to another, often doing too much…
Yes Robert could be worse and he is a kind man…if he would be more sadistic or criminal this would not have lasted as long. He is kind and it is hard to believe that he can be that cold and that he is what he is. He surely believes his own words…
So often I am angry to older students who did not tell me the truth…I did not question more. Who is too blame. Me..? Not wiser and trusting others point of view because I had too many of my own, and could not, dared not, to figure it out.
Yes I hurt and this blog is healing salve for me. I am sorry I can not move one (yet). Wait give me time, sit with me, endure me, as I have to do myself. It is alright, really I will survive and carry the hurt with grace, just give me time and your kindness, as many do and have done.
Love to all of you.
From the place of acceptance new possibilities can arise.
April 29, 2007 at 5:55 am
To Duncan, 394.
Obviously my eyes are neither as wide nor as open but in imagination. Thank you for getting more real and forgive me. It must be the pressure or depression.
April 29, 2007 at 7:56 am
Hey Duncan, 393 and 394,
It looks like both these posts are for me and not for the person that questioned you fairly gently. Hopefully he’ll see that, not identify with it and allow me to take the blow who deserve it much more than him.
Let me take my confusion back.
April 29, 2007 at 8:29 am
Dear Elena,
I am sorry I did not say well what I meant.
I actually like you, you speak from your heart, I really hear you.
You did not hurt me at all.
I just noticed some people attacking you and trying to give you a hard time with intellectual arguments (sometimes good), others have been very nice as well towards you and to what you have to say.
I can certainly see that this happened to other fine people like Ames G. Joel F. Charles R. and more…
So, do not take it personally if you can, we can only please 50 % of the people we encounter, the other 50% will just not like us, naturally, even when you come from the most intentional place you can muster and with total integrity.
I perhaps do not agree with everything you say, you write “mucho”, it’s your talent obviously and you are a very good thinker, but I refer more to the little things, not the important.
On the other hand I am completely supporting YOU in your departure from the fof and in trying to expose the truth, and MORE.
I hope you’ll find close friends to spend time with during this period of deep grief.
We need support, right?
This big heavy time will pass and you’ll find your joyful self again.
NoName
April 29, 2007 at 1:52 pm
Just Observing #373, demonstrates how ‘Newspeak’ works in the Fellowship: ‘Transformation’ means; Self denial, getting the dissonance going, hypocrisy, repression.
Just Observing #344: “The school is what you make of it” means: you cannot make anything external or give a full expression to your Being & you cannot create; all & everything godess REB is the only one doing that, but you can learn to make it ‘your own’ in imagination i.e. ‘transform’ the school internally (how do you transform excreta into high hydrogens, into gourmet dish?).
NoName #371, would love to get involved in some class action lawsuit; get some of my money back, maybe a chinese pot or a chadelier. Besides, I’m getting bored here (I am still in), there is not much to do lately except this conscious blog reding. If the lawsuit is successful we can turn the Galleria into an affordable B&B (maybe a section of it will remain a brothel, of a more varied sort, more selection). REB will be put in a trailer by the bathhouse and given vouchers and coupons (for groceries & gas) for further keying to a few Just Observing, HigherMs, HCs who will privately sit at his feet.
Bruce, ames, others wouldn’t you want to channel some of your anger that lawsuit way, and this time not settle out of court? Many will join including current members. And a few russian students with ’small fists’.
Archive #352, thanks for Ouspensky beyond the grave update. Thanks gods (isn’t he in this C cadre with his buddy Gurdjieff?) we have now the final word on everything. I suspected all along that there was more to it than this, and now, finally, we can begin the serious Work.
I wonder what would an REB note beyond the grave read. Enlightened Zack, would you please put on your ESP cap and try to read his?
April 29, 2007 at 3:45 pm
Hello Moonfood,
you wrote:”Happy to be alive, happy to have chosen to leave to FOF and happy to feel that there IS something more than JUST this.”
I am also very happy to be alive and for me JUST THIS is everything, as Tony Parsons says” is the manifestation of unconditional love, the wonderful mistery….”why do you want more??And what is this more? 9 lifetimes, angels hoovering around, sequences, numbers , keys???
Much better without all this staff…there is so much aliveness, there is only aliveness…
Love to you.
April 29, 2007 at 3:55 pm
to Kiran: The last post probably helped a lot more people than your previous ones. That was heart-felt. It is quite sad the lack of conscience occurring in the FOF at this time and I have to say it probably has become worse, and becoming more sociopathic in nature. I liked your flowers. You seem to have a kind heart. We are all one another’s teachers.
April 29, 2007 at 4:40 pm
The Dancer Dancing- A Dialog (monolog actually) NOT a Poem!!!
The Choreographers argue the nature of Man…
Some insist “Man is the Dance”
Some insist “Man is the Dancer”
The Conductors argue the nature of Man…
Some insist “Man is the Score”
Some insist “Man is the Music”
Philosophers argue the nature of Man…
Some insist “Man is unchanging ever-present Conscious”
Some insist “Man is electrified tissue”
Old Dog wonders “Is Man the instrument or the song?”
It’s a Crazy question. Man is neither…he is Both.
Man is the Dancer Dancing.
Man is the Orchestra Playing.
Man is the interplay of consciousness and tissue, not one or the other… both together.
Man is neither rain or ocean. He is the patter of raindrops falling on the water. He is the ripples in spacetime produced by the empassioned osculations of Possibility and Destiny.
Scroll of Credits: Yes, Yes. Old Dog know there is also the unmentioned Stage on which everthing takes place. However, you must wait to the end, to ‘The Scroll of Credits’ to know where the Dancing and Music…and Living took place.
April 29, 2007 at 5:00 pm
To I’ll give it a try #13:
I don’t want to keep labouring the obvious… or what should be obvious! The greatest spiritual beings/teachers that we know of (Buddha, Jesus, Mohammed etc..) all used a system to get beyond the system. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky adapted Sufi teaching to create a system for the Western mind.
We all need a map to help navigate our own inner worlds, and the help of people who ahve already nade the same effort. If we’re lucky, we can folow the map far enough and deeply enough to make our own footprints (actually we make our own footprints all the way along..!). Many beings have done this and come back with even more beautiful maps for others to follow. Isn’t this what the interdependence of spiritual life/beings is all about?
But you seem rather rootless and a ‘law unto yourself’… certainly not keen to acknowledge any kinship in your efforts – and believe yourself in advance of others who acknowledge the need for a map, and help.
Do I think the world you have been describing really exists in a meaningful sense? No, I do not.
April 29, 2007 at 5:32 pm
Dear Alexis and Friends,
Please, you have been kind to me and we seem to have a misunderstanding that does not really matter. I am not here to pick a fight with you or any ex-student, no matter how much our views differ. I have already picked a fight against the Fellowship because I believe it is a necessary fight.
Perhaps it would be easier to leave and transform this on my own and let things be but I am not going to take that path. Fighting means so much more karma and struggle and yet if I can help even one person to get a wide view of the Fellowship before he or she joins, the karma and the struggle are worth it.
You see, what I find most dangerous about the Fellowship is that I sincerely believe that it makes us, the students, believe that we are not good enough. That we are not allowed to talk or participate because we are not “conscious” enough, “good enough.”
I believe people join a school because they know they need to work on themselves but if the school treats them repeatedly for a long time as if they are not worth while people, then the school itself is discriminating them. For whatever excuse, I was not allowed to participate or given the slightest support in seventeen years that I was in this school. Even my husband allowed them to discriminate me and supported their actions with his.
I was given the exercise not to give angles at meetings for two years because I asked a question to Robert, an insignificant theoretical question.
I know there are many more abuses in the Fellowship than this one done to me but the subtlety with which the inner circle of the Fellowship denies a huge population of the Fellowship the right to participate on equal ground is discriminatory. It harms the SELF and people get used to being less. It is so subtle but it is the most dangerous aspect of any cult.
Alexis, I have much appreciated your angles, I don’t know why I don’t seem to be able to convey this to you. Since I began participating on the blog so many things have happened. When I began there was much love for both ex-students and the Fellowship, much wish to receive the suffering and still stand up for the Fellowship. I did not wish to leave. I had to.
As time goes by I see more and more why I had to. What it has done to me and others and why I am going to fight.
But the fight is not against you unless you are willing to stand for the Fellowship of Friends as it is today. Then the fight is against you and even my daughter and my husband.
If I make a hundred mistakes, don’t be surprised. I have made a million mistakes for seventeen years by supporting the Fellowship wishing an institution to avail my being.
I am not free of making mistakes and you have no idea how difficult it is to tread my way above the fear of not having been considered “good enough” for seventeen years to
consider myself “good enough” to question this institution down to the ground. But I am going to try. If I was not “good enough” to support them I might be “good enough” to go against them.
On another subject, I don’t know if the historical document that Ames proposes is just a historical one or a questioning one.
I don’t just wish a “historical document,” which indeed has its place. There is still a “school” somewhere in me, but that is another story.
What I am trying to develop at the moment is a document that addresses the innumerable flaws of the Fellowship. One that collects the many cases of actual damage big or small.
And let me clarify, it is the “cult” more than the “brothel”, that I am concerned about.
In this document if we could lay out the different aspects of concern with neutrality then indeed, people could write in positively or questioningly about the Fellowship. I do not oppose those that can say, everything in my experience in the Fellowship was wonderful, because that is possible too, what I would question is the right those counted few that had that luck, to say that the Fellowship has never harmed anybody or will not continue to do so.
April 29, 2007 at 5:59 pm
To A LOVER.
This is not an arguement between you and me, I want to make that clear. Neither of us is right or wrong.
Different things inspire different people. Tony Parsons doesn’t inspire me. Neither does Robert Burton, 44 angels or the sequence. But I FEEL that there is something more than just this human form on planet earth and that inspires me.
Believe me, I feel very alive and sometimes “aliveness” means feeling the pains of the world along with the joy. Tony Parsons is just another man with another opinion as is Robert and so many other “spiritual advisors”.
I will keep questioning whatever anyone tells me is the truth! Will you? Did you while in the FOF? How many years did it take before REALLY questioning Robert’s spiritual authority in your life? Are you now swallowing Tony Parson’s “happy pill”?
Let’s not forget, all too soon, the lessons we have learnt in leaving a cult….. I know nothing but neither does anyone else!
In kindness,
Moonfood
April 29, 2007 at 6:49 pm
Dear Moonfood
I don’t feel like I am swallowing an “happy pill”, for that may be is more effective to take prozac or other stuff.
What happened when I read Tony Parson’s books (also Nathan Gill Richard Sylvester, John Wheeler and many others)was that I simply found them very inspiring, honest and simple and I just want to share this….and if this is not so for you it is perfectly fine.My previous message wasa bit ‘reactive’.
I agree very much with you when you says:”I know nothing but neither does anyone else!”
It is totally a mistery!
Thank you and take care!
April 29, 2007 at 7:13 pm
Hello Everybody,
About post 7/352. Great notes, Archive! As we used to say, I have a solar side, so it’s not surprising that I took those notes for real. Nevertheless, I have to say that they make complete sense to me, whether they are real or not.
It’s hard to know what was going on in Ouspensky’s mind after he left the System behind. But, I’m pretty sure his seeker didn’t abandon him that easily. So he might have been trying to find answers somewhere else as he probably realised he couldn’t make it through the Fourth Way. Who knows?
Take care!
April 29, 2007 at 8:26 pm
I am so happy to have escaped the FoF after 11 years.
April 29, 2007 at 10:05 pm
Re Tony Parsons and just swallowing the “happy pill” of another teacher. There is a big difference between the Robert Burtons of this world and the various, let’s say, advaitists which have been mentioned on the blog, although not all come from that tradition or call themselves “advaitists”. The difference is this:
Robert Burton: “You have been seeking all your life and now you have found the right school, for I have a connection with a higher school on another plane. Follow me, do such-and-such, struggle with such-and such, and I will take you to heaven. You have the inexplicable good fortune to have been selected by Influence C. With their help, you will eventually create a soul, become immortal and conquer death. This is the greatest task you must perform and no price is to small for such an achievement.”
Other guys: “You have been seeking all your life and you want something from me but I can’t give you anything. I can’t give you enlightenment. Stop seeking already, silly. There is nothing to find and nothing to attain. Don’t keep coming to me to hear the same thing over and over. Go out there and live.”
It takes some people a long time of listening to this to realize that their original question was false. But in the meantime, it is easy to confuse the message and the person who carries it, and say, this person teaches because they want followers.
So I figured if anyone absolutely has to know whether I’m “following” any teaching, to say that my teacher is Puppetji. For sure he doesn’t want my money and my devotion!
April 29, 2007 at 10:29 pm
To Charles R. who writes: “Once you have given up your soul in the FOF, you actually cease to be a responsible full fledged adult – you become a “student”,” etc.
This is not what is suggested, we are asked to take responsibility for ourselves, especially for our evolution (the purpose is to create a soul, not to give up one).
No one can do the work for another–this is elementary. All the tools of body type, center of gravity, are here to help us understand ourself and others, not to have one be diminished by this knowledge. Also, these tools are much more on the background now and do not nearly occupy the space they did a decade ago.
To Elena who wrote: “You see, what I find most dangerous about the Fellowship is that I sincerely believe that it makes us, the students, believe that we are not good enough…”
In my 15+ years in the Fellowship, and the last 10+ here at Isis, I have never heard this sentiment expressed in any way, nor have I seen anything that I believe can lead anyone to think that way.
While not everyone is asked to lead or to “sit up front” at the meetings (I am not either, but this is not the point), I hope you look where those sentiments come from inside yourself.
I do not dispute you are feeling this way, but you have to take responsibility for your emotional reactions. There is no justification for your constant blaming the Fellowship for everything.
To Somebody’s list of work I’s students respond with to the blog. Here is one that I use: whether true or not, I still have to do my Work, in this moment.
You can define your work any way you wish (whether it is to make efforts, or no efforts, to be, or just “live,” whether is involves doing one’s job, or octave, or sequence, walking through the fields of Isis or Irises, dealing with any of these issues…,etc.), I think what most people on this blog have in common is that we seek presence. Why not make that our destination?
Siddiq
April 29, 2007 at 10:55 pm
OP (8/2): “In my heart of hearts, I still believe in that dream of people coming together, working together to build a vision of what we want our world to be.”
Hello OP,
Very well said, and I believe the same.
All the best,
-2b
April 29, 2007 at 10:57 pm
I am still in the school but I am not a student anymore.
I joined the school 20 years ago with all my heart.
I survived several of the school’s big intervals, when Influence C was “shaking the tree.”
When other students left, I never wanted to know the reason. Each time, some “good student” or center director would act as a filter, saying that the student left because their instinctive center didn’t want to pay any more or because their American puritanical morality made Robert’s sex life into an excuse for leaving.
After a year in the school, a friend of mine left, and before she did she told me that her friend had a relationship with Robert. It was a bad experience, and he left in shock. I was actually relieved to hear that Robert was gay. I’d already been in a group where the teacher was gay. In a second group, where the teacher was straight, and very interested in women, his “wife” had me kicked out because she imagined I was having an affair with him.
In the FOF, I lost a husband, a house, and a lot of money that I didn’t have and don’t have, but none of that bothered me enough to make me leave. Robert has never spoken to me directly — I don’t have money, I’m not rich, I’m a woman. I’m not an artist or actor. I don’t have blue blood or a name of noble origin. So, my role in the school — according to other students — is to pay. That’s my role and for many years I’ve been paying my teaching payment.
I began reading this blog and the letters sent to me by ex-students. I told myself that I’ve been in the school so long that I wouldn’t hear anything bad enough to change my mind, my desire, or my love for Robert.
It didn’t take long to realize that I hadn’t been aware of the level of suffering that many students endured. When Elena wrote, it was as if she read my heart. Now I understand why friends who became Robert’s lovers are so depressed and unable to have a full emotional life. I’ve seen mothers who are happy that their sons were chosen to be Robert’s lovers, and encouraged them not to lose the opportunity to experience higher levels with an angel.
At Isis, children are the last concern. In fact, a friend who doesn’t have children told me, “I think that Isis needs an orphanage.” I was shocked and offended.
I believed that I was helping to build a new civilization, not supporting and paying for all this suffering. I can’t be an accomplice any more. This isn’t the school I was looking for. I’ve learned a lot, but at a very high price. I have a conscience — someone might call it feminine dominance, but I don’t care. All those years I’ve pushed down that inner screaming voice, and had — as many others have — health consequences.
I want to leave the school without a fuss, the way I came, but I want to give a warning to potential students so they have an idea of what they’re getting into. If this blog was available to me 20 years ago, I probably would have made a different decision.
Someone said — I wish I could remember who — that you can see the level of civilization in a country by looking at the way they treat children and old people. Elena, you’re right: I don’t recognize the same Ark that I boarded 20 years old.
During these 20 years, I’ve met some wonderful people, and leaving those friends is going to be a much bigger payment than I’ve ever made. I’m sorry, and I love you.
April 29, 2007 at 11:31 pm
Moonfood #31: From Rodney Collin’s book “The Theory of Celestial Influence” Rodney quotes from Guy De Maupassant’s notebook, April 7, 1888.
“All the progress obtained by our cerebral effort consists in the ascertaining of material facts by ridiculously imperfect instruments, which make up in a certain degree however for the inefficiency of our organs. Every twenty years some unhappy enquirer, who generally dies in the attempt, discovers that the atmosphere contains a gas hithero unknown, that an imponderable, inexplicable, unqualifiable force can be obtained by rubbing a piece of wax on cloth; that among the innumerable unknown stars, there is one that has not yet been noticed in the immediate vicinity of another which has… Well, what about it?
Our diseases are due to microbes? Very well. But where do those microbes come from? And what about THEIR diseases? And the suns, whence do they come?
WE KNOW NOTHING, WE UNDERSTAND NOTHING, WE CAN DO NOTHING, WE GUESS NOTHING. WE ARE SHUT UP, IMPRISONED IN OURSELVES…”
And so we seek the holder of the keys? The eternal seeking?
April 30, 2007 at 12:15 am
Crouching Tiger (29):
Perhaps some of this is semantics.
When you treat someone as you would have them treat you, are you “externally considering” them?
Or are you simply being kind?
Are you doing it because Gurdjieff/Ouspensky/Collin/Burton, etc., said we must do so in order to evolve?
Are you doing it because Jesus said you should love your neighbor, and it’s the way to get to heaven?
Or are you just being kind?
When you pay attention to what goes on within and without you, are you “self-remembering”? “Being present”? “Practicing vipassana”? “Doing zazen”? “Creating a soul”?
Or are you paying attention?
No big deal.
April 30, 2007 at 12:27 am
To Lady B who wrote: “So, my role in the school — according to other students — is to pay. That’s my role and for many years I’ve been paying my teaching payment.”
I am very sorry for you (no doubt many on this blog will applaud your decision to leave but not me) as you have apparently for many years accepted what you believed your fate should be–I hope for you that your experience included more than just being somebody who pays.
You see, I do not know any mothers who applaud their sons being Robert’s lovers (there are very few mothers in the Fellowship whose sons are Robert’s lovers–this cannot possibly be more than a handful, at most as there are few such families in the School).
I also do not see the depressed students and people unable to have an emotional life (I assume you do, so there must be more than just paying money in your life) any more so than anywhere else outside of Isis or the Fellowship.
I also do not know of anyone of nobility, blue blood, or artistic talent here that gets special treatment. The artists here pay, in many ways, as all do, and as the universe exacts from us, whether we are in or out of the School.
Finally, children appear to me healthy and well adjusted, not mistreated, not in any danger. There are hundreds and their parents (of which I am one and I assume you are too, which makes me wonder why we have never connected or if we did why you never spoke out against the abuse you perceived). Do you believe they are worse off here than let’s say in some big city with all its problems?
Good luck to you.
Siddiq
April 30, 2007 at 12:36 am
Disillusionment! I found out that Puppetji DOES want my money! You can’t even trust a sock any more these days…
April 30, 2007 at 12:44 am
Yes, Dana (8/33), those notes are real! Archive recently left on his annual pilgrimage to the Himalayas, but before he went he was kind enough to forward to me the complete contents of the mysterious Yale Library envelope, with permission to circulate them if it seemed appropriate.
The primary manuscript ends abruptly after the Precepts quoted in Archive’s blog entry (7/352).
In addition, there is a crumpled piece of paper which appears to have been torn from a letter written by Rodney Collin, as follows:
“You may be surprised to learn that we invented the Six Processes one night when O. had had several glasses too many, with a view to seeing if his students were by that time so gullible that they would believe completely incomprehensible nonsense. Amazingly, a whole pseudo-science was built from these obvious absurdities, as described in my comic parody, ‘The Theory Of Celestial Influence’.”
Other papers from the envelope are mostly receipts for alcohol purchases, together with a small number of grubby handwritten sheets, mostly indecipherable but with an occasional clear phrase or sentence such as:
Feed the cats.
I tink, therefore nothing.
G. made me do it.
Must think up some confusing “famous last words”.
Etc., etc.
There is also what appears to be a later addition, a piece of paper folded and stapled to the outside of the envelope, containing the following:
“Maurice Nicoll: Commentary on a line from Ouspensky’s Notes On The Fifth Way -
‘But false names are sometimes necessary’:
On first glance this seems obscure, but it is simply explained when one considers the little known fact that Ouspensky was born in Ireland. His original name was Paddy O’Spensky. O. himself did his best to keep this quiet, for obvious reasons. He once told me that even before emigrating to Russia he was prone to philosophizing and would present his theories to anyone who would listen. He was convinced that the Little People were a manifestation of higher consciousness, sent to help Irish people to awaken. There would be a global cataclysm which only the Irish would survive. They would create a new society based on their unique connection with the Little People. A messiah named Balmy Bob would prepare them for their role (see RC’s pamphlet ‘The Herald Of Harmony’).”
The following is written on the same sheet of paper but in a different hand:
“In the 1980’s this messiah was thought by many to be Bob Geldof. It was commonly believed in Ireland that the world would end immediately after Live Aid, thereby solving the problem of global poverty at a stroke. When this didn’t happen it was assumed by many that the Little People were deliberately misleading Bob, with a view to increasing his humility. Others were disillusioned by the non-occurrence of the prediction and began to look for a new Balmy Bob. A deputation visited California in response to stories of a Balmy Bob teaching a primitive version of the 4th Way there, but quickly returned when it became apparent that this Balmy Bob was just another imposter. ‘Even if blows of the staff fall like rain and shouts roll like thunder, we still haven’t lived up to the task of the fundamental vehicle of transcendence….’”
April 30, 2007 at 1:15 am
Siddiq (36) quotes Charles R. “Once you have given up your soul in the FOF, you actually cease to be a responsible full fledged adult – you become a ’student’” and says: “This is not what is suggested, we are asked to take responsibility for ourselves, especially for our evolution. (the purpose is to create a soul, not to give up one).”
The mention of the soul in this context confuses the issue, but the fact remains that by joining the FOF you become subjected to huge pressure to believe what everyone else believes (or pretends to believe), most of which is nonsense, eg RB is conscious, the FOF is the only real School, everyone else is asleep and food for the moon etc, etc. Voicing disagreement with any of these nutty ideas will draw heavy fire from other students. After a while it becomes more comfortable to stop thinking for yourself – that’s how you “cease to be a responsible adult”.
Siddiq quotes Elena “what I find most dangerous about the Fellowship is that I sincerely believe that it makes us, the students, believe that we are not good enough…” and says “I have never heard this sentiment expressed in any way, nor have I seen anything that I believe can lead anyone to think that way.”
Well how about being told that RB is on an infinitely higher level than us and so can do no wrong, and that we are incapable of making the efforts to wake up in this lifetime?
Siddiq: “I think what most people on this blog have in common is that we seek presence. Why not make that our destination?”
It’s not a destination. There’s no need for sequences, etc. We’re in the present whether we like it or not.
cheers, RB
April 30, 2007 at 1:22 am
Dear HigherM (post no. 10):
I am so very grateful to have found in you another initiate who understands the True Teaching of our Holy Father Robert Burton. As you so rightly say, “EMULATE ROBERT.” Indeed this has been my Guiding Star since both before and after I completed the Alchemical Work of Transmutation of the base into the fine and awakened into the Seventh Heaven under the guidance of Robert some fifteen years ago.
As you so rightly, if a bit crudely, put it, it is indeed the “succouring” of many others that enables us to perform the Alchemical work of the creation of the Philosopher’s Stone. Indeed I have “sucked” many young men as Robert taught me by example, although I choose to put it more discreetly than you; I prefer to refer to it as “Receiving the Effluvium.”
As you well know, Robert taught us this Work by example every day, indeed sometimes many times a day! And yet so many both in and outside of the Fellowship of Friends seem not to comprehend the the true nature of our Teacher’s Work; they think he is merely indulging in deviant sexual practices! Ah, how the secret protects itself, eh? The truth, the True Way, is only for those who are prepared, those who have the insight and the courage to proceed “beyond the fourth way” to accumulate our “hard won divine energy.” Thank you for those inspiring words!
As I wrote some time ago in post no. 163 on board no. 3, by emulating his example, I have come to the conclusion that Robert Burton is undoubtedly the greatest Alchemist of this age, one who has rediscovered the ancient Work of utilizing the male ejaculate to create the Aqua Vitae, the Elixir, in the Inner Retort, that which turns the “basest of metals” into the “finest of gold.”
And as you well know, this work is indeed Work and not for the feint of heart, especially for those of us who in actual fact prefer women to young boys. But our Teacher teaches us that succouring is what is required, so do it we must. But the rewards are many, are they not? If you are not already close to completing the Work of Transmutation, then I am sure you are well on your way, and you too may soon find yourself blessed with your own school, your own entourage, your own chauffeured vehicles, all but the outward marks of greatness.
I wish you all the best, and may your “immense magnanimity” continue to assist you with your succouring!
April 30, 2007 at 1:24 am
Crouching Tiger Says:
“all used a system to get beyond the system. Gurdjieff and Ouspensky adapted Sufi teaching to create a system for the Western mind.”
Very Interesting how people are either misinformed or in de Nile.
I am sorry. I love you.
I’ll Give It a Try Says:
“If you believe that Robert’s tastes and nonsexual behaviors, which have strongly influenced the form of the FoF, have nothing whatsoever to do with his sexual orientation, I would frankly be very interested in hearing from you”
As I stated before, do you REALLY think going to a concert, ballet or opera, is GAY?
Do you sincerely think seeking refinement in one’s environment is GAY??
Is Martha S. GAY???
HigherM says:
“…as a successful elite athlete i had experience of hard physical pain, i had learned to cherish the gift of pain, (as robert showed me he does…”
Oh, dear, you aren’t that student that R likes to have slap him around in bed, are you?
Well, there’s another cat out of the bag, I guess….
arthur Says:
“From Rodney Collin’s book “The Theory of Celestial Influence” Rodney quotes from Guy De Maupassant’s notebook, April 7, 1888.”
Without getting too intellectual here, RC was a failed student of PDO who was a failed student of G.. Connect the dots. Notice a pattern here?
April 30, 2007 at 1:50 am
Last night, the S.F. International Film Festival presented the West Coast premier of a documentary titled “Protagonist.” Since the film draws comparisons between the drama of Euripedes and the lives of four very different men, I entered the theater with a fair amount of skepticism. I figured I’d be checking my watch every 10 minutes or so.
Instead, after about 15 minutes into the movie, I realized the themes very much connect to everything we’re discussing here, and very much so to our experiences in the Fellowship.
I wish I had magic words right now that would convince all of you — all current and former FOF members — to watch this film. All I can say is it that I highly recommend it once it comes to a theater near you, and when it become available on DVD. It’s a very beautiful, heart-wrenching, and incredibly hilarious film.
http://www.protagonistthemovie.com
Synopsis
PROTAGONIST explores extremism through contrasting stories of personal revelation. The film features four individuals who have been devoted to personal odysseys — a cause, a quest, an ideal — to the point of total consumption. At first glance the characters appear disconnected: a former German terrorist, an “ex-gay” evangelist, a bank robber and a martial arts student. But as their stories unfold, one starts to see the parallels between the uncommon, common experience of these four men.
Each character embarks on a journey for valid reasons, only to find himself so deeply embedded in the cause that he becomes the opposite of what he had intended. He is blind to this fact, though, until the forces of fate and character boil and distill to a single moment of dark epiphany. In telling this echoing story, the film asks: what is the path to extremism? In responding to the turmoil of life, where does one draw the line between the reasonable and the unreasonable? And how does one recover from the delusion of certainty?
The four stories in PROTAGONIST are told in parallel threads and structured like a multi-layered Greek drama. Directed by Jessica Yu and produced by Yu, Elise Pearlstein and Susan West, this adventurous documentary is inspired by the works of the 5th century playwright Euripides. The film uses quotes from his plays as thematic chapter headings, providing a provocative common link between our contemporary stories and lending them a timeless quality. Wooden rod puppets, modeled after ancient Greek theater masks and designed by Janie Geiser, stage both the play excerpts and scenes from our subjects’ pasts. The film also features intricate title animation by Robert Conner, music by Jeff Beal and voiceover performance in ancient Greek by Marina Sirtis and Chris Diamantopolous.
Next screenings:
San Francisco
April 30 4:15pm and May 1 9:15 am Kabuki
Seattle
May 24-June 17
Newport, RI
June 5-10
Silver Docs
June 12-17
April 30, 2007 at 1:51 am
Rabbi & Archive-separated at birth. You are such a trouble maker. I love it.
April 30, 2007 at 1:55 am
Dear Rabbi Burns (no 43), re: Paddy O’Spensky:
I’m sorry, but Maurice Nicoll had it wrong. Paddy O’Spensky was not P.D. Ouspensky, but rather a legendary seventeenth-century Irish mystic, bard and tall-tale teller. Some fragments of his writings survive in the library of Trinity College, Dublin, but on the whole his legacy is an oral one.
I received my first visitation from his spirit many years ago while spending some time in the small town of Doolin, County Clare, on the West Coast of Ireland (a story I have published elsewhere). Paddy continues on occasion to “channel” communications through me, hence my taking of his name for submissions here.
Paddy does, however, seem to have some connection with what we call “the Fourth Way,” although it mostly serves as the butt of many of his jokes. He sends along the following limerick with his compliments.
+———-+
A LIMERICK from Paddy!
Hello dear, my name is Bob Burton
I have just what you need if you’re hurtin’!
You’ll divide your attention
But oh, did I mention?
That your member will need to be spurtin’.
April 30, 2007 at 2:07 am
In reply to Post #374/7 by Yesri Baba.
Thank you for the first two questions, not to sure about the third, i.e., how it relates to the wish to understand the Pain body more.
When I was first introduced to the idea, it was through Ekhart Tolle… The more I listened and ‘assimilated’ the incredible precision of his descriptions, etc., the more I noticed and ‘it began’, the separation process from this ‘pain body’ as something ‘me’ or ‘normal’.
The initial ‘waking up’, from its deeply rooted hold in this mind as a ‘me’ or a very ‘common’ way of being, lasted from 3 to 4 months, similar to being a big baby, with allot of naiveté… This euphoric, highly energetic state wore off, about forty five percent off.
The practical side of the time period remained, i.e., being able to recognize various depths and kinds of pain bodies, their main issues, tricks, gestures, etc. Organizations built up around pain body service/feeding, its relation to ‘relative awakening’, etc.
Most of all, I worked and continue to work, to build what I ‘know’ is me, outside the pain body lifestyle/being.
Dear Yesri Baba,
I would like very much to describe what it is ’specifically’, though this would be ‘my story, my pain body’s profile’. Rather I will point you and others to Tolle’s observations concerning it: try and find as much as possible from him on this.
What I can do is describe it a bit in using a few blog postings as practical examples of Pain body lifestyles and means of feeding itself. And a few personal events with the Pain body of others in an ongoing experiment of interacting with these phenomenons ‘out in life’ and in certain selected ‘esoteric schools’.
A note: Even once awakening to the realization of one’s Pain body and the subsequent separation from it does not mean that it is ‘dead’…It and many others remain to be transformed and dealt with.
It has been my experience that the more present you are, the harder you task your portion of love to work, this by no means is poetry in motion, its real becoming, being and has no foreseeable end in sight.
A few examples of Pain body:
See Post #10/8 from HigherM.
In Reply to Post #10/8 ~
Sarcasm is a refined ’science’ among Pain bodies, it is one of the most subtle forms of negativity in that it not only hurts the feelings of others, it simultaneously creates laughter, oftentimes even in those who are being hurt.
Sarcasm is a sort of ‘higher mechanic’: Yes, perhaps their are ‘things’ higher in mechanical jurisdiction than human beings.
Astrology points to the birth of ‘denying force’ mainly: could it be that it is a guide to specific types of Pain bodies, the painful self image that is not your being?
See Post #17/8.
In Reply to Post #17/8 ~
This post gives a sort of ‘grocery list’ of Pain body ‘thoughts’, a sort of lifestyle outline…All these ‘quotes’ reference the continuation of the struggle, which simply crystallizes the Pain body more so.
Any justification that chooses to struggle over separation and being beyond ‘the struggler’ is Pain body identification with life as ‘they’ know it, not as the real self knows it…
For certainly none here can see the tomorrow that this blog is part of, though it exists…Pain has no time to love problems up from their depths of drama, for their is nothing there to see them as objective circumstances, tests of one’s self as a ‘present being’.
See Elena’s Post #30. (quoted here)
“I am not free of making mistakes and you have no idea how difficult it is to tread my way above the fear of not having been considered “good enough” for seventeen years to consider myself “good enough” to question this institution down to the ground. But I am going to try. If I was not “good enough” to support them I might be “good enough” to go against them.”
In Reply to quote from Posting #30/8
Again, this is Pain body ego speaking. Spiritually there is no ‘real reason’ to suggest to another that since they do not know or cannot experience the pain one has felt that they themselves are at some disadvantage in relating to you: this only alienates the speaker more from ‘the real world’ and sets their particular Pain body away from the Positive Pain bodies who wish to sooth the pain by relating their own pain to it, i.e., ‘Misery loves company.’
Yet, even so, (if the Negative Pain ego does relate to the companionship of other more ‘jovial’ sufferers) this is a circular food chain, the snake swallowing its tail eventually breaks its own back.
Spiritual schools do this allot. The psychology of ‘Not being good enough’ is never satiated and ’spiritual schools’ are mostly those which worship the struggle, not the being who can separate, be and do apart from it…
The cross of crucifixion, worshiped by billions on earth is simply a Pain body totem, that is all. Although, on a larger scale, one must stand in awe, that such an image could perpetuate more of its opposite than that which it lived for…Yet, this is the nature of Pain bodies, they live to resent the one and only moment and interpret individual successes as ‘records to be broken’, ‘contests’, and ‘doubt that the winner really deserved it.’
A great part of ‘doing’ is not being a painful self, a ‘little vulnerable self’; all ‘adult vulnerabilities’ are ‘loose ends’ on the cape of the Super Pain body, the pain body of whatever particular nation, state or country one is from…Some call it ‘cultural programming’…
Historical recording provides a vast array of ‘tattoos’ for Pain bodies to wear when their own ‘little story’ runs its course.
If it were not for the phenomenon of the Pain body, 75% of this blog would not exist. This is not to say that this 75% is worthless, far from it, it is simply ‘canned food’ for future transformation, i.e., Now.
At best, the exposure of the Pain body’s of others, i.e., ‘their ‘personal lives’ revealed without their permission or will’
(Posting #5/8) can only serve three things.
1. To justify/add onto the revealer’s Pain body who is diametrically opposed (a more dense Pain body competing with another’s lightness) to another’s. Believe it or not, there are Positive Pain body’s and Negative Pain body’s who endlessly feed off one another’s ‘mood’ surrounding the stalemated position of having received a difficult set of circumstances,dwelling upon the ‘board as it is’ rather than consciously going into the tactility of the painful atmosphere.
To get in there and ‘be’, move about, be curious, inquire of the pain consciously, look into the mirror at the frowning face and ask ‘Who frowns with my eyebrows? ‘Who ‘does’ with these thoughts?’
2. To give pain-food to those who read the ‘newspaper of unreconciliations’… More doubt, more drama, more tension, more hiding, more definitions for the belief that the Pain body is ‘I’, ‘me’, ’she’ and ‘we’.
3. To be a sort of ‘footprint’ that someday one will go back to and ‘re-foot’, i.e., transform the ‘once then ego’ into the ‘Now I’, without identification with a painful struggling self jurisdiction and all those trespassing, camping, giving birth and attending seminars.
_______________________
In ending I will quote something a teacher of an esoteric school once said to one of his or her students in regards to what was then perceived as a circumstance connected to that teacher whose actions were ‘creating pain’, ‘contradictory states’ of reference to the sets of ‘morals and dogma’ the teacher ‘itself’ patrolled upon his or her students.
The student expressed the set of painful circumstances that seemed to be contradictory to the teacher’s expectations of his/her students.
The teacher replied ~ “Yes, it is a burden upon them, a burden they must work with.”
From the point of view (awakening from the hold of the Pain body ego ‘i’.) This statement from a spiritual teacher is simply a license for pain, not transformation and going beyond the self that builds itself a struggling-self-ego upon ‘burdens’.
Some burdens can be transformed, others, from a present-point-of-view are to be walked straight through and out the other side…No need to stay in the bowling alley if the robotic pin setting device is not working.
The beautiful part of this ‘walking straight through’ is that it is a conscious individual process, there are no rules or exact form to this ‘walk’, though conscience plays a great part of it and one’s real-self-present.
In the above quoted answer, the teacher here is not acknowledging ‘his or her’ working with the contradiction, only that the students must work with it, thus, making it a school of worshiping the cross, not the cross roads.
Yet, all is perfect in so many ways, one being that these circumstances often bring Ego-Pain to one’s Present Self in such massive vibratory bouts that ’something peculiar’ happens and ‘You’ are born.
Yes, the FoF is a womb, the birth pains are real only for that which dwells on the birth process… What chooses to gossip about the 15 hour labor, of which the man could never understand, then bypasses the real participant, the baby, whose miraculous 9 month ‘hanging in there’ has come to some stage of fruition?
Eventually ‘the baby’ finds herself standing on her mother’s grave, wondering, wondering and more wonder. From that point of view she can walk away from the ‘form and pain her birth took’ and become pregnant herself.*
*This goes for the guys too.
Love to you all.
April 30, 2007 at 2:26 am
Hi, Siddiq! You said: “I think what most people on this blog have in common is that we seek presence. Why not make that our destination?”
This is exactly it. You said it. People seek what it under their noses all the times. Do you realise that whatever you do, think, imagine, etc. etc – occurs only in the PRESENT? Even thinking of future or past happens in the present. Even identification, and imagination happens in the present. There is no getting out of present, ever – how can it not be clear? All possible experiences happen to us NOW and we are participating in them presently. There is just no absence, no past, no future, there is only presence, only now.
But here goes the mind trick – No, it can’t be so simple, I must be “not here”. I must be “somewhere”, not present. So, let’s try to find presence, get to present, and even “make it a destinaton”. Let’s spend the whole life getting to a place that was never left! Try harder, try this and that – and nothing seem to work (what a surprise)… Oh yes, many obstacles and adversaries are on the way, it’s difficult, complicated, for selected few on their 9th lifetime… Don’t you see how ridiculous it is? Where are you trying to go from NOW? Which REAL (not conceptual) obstacles are there to be where you already are? If presence is your imaginary “destination” – where are you now – in 19th century may be? You are here and now, buddy, fully present and aware, OK, so is everyone, no matter what their imaginary ideas tell them. Watch your mind resenting it, saying: No, I am not present! And what is it? Thoughts, mind games only, just see it for what it is. Presence is NOT a destination.
Unfortunately, the whole “seeker” desease is exactly that – to refuse the obvious and go on an addictive wild goose chase for a long time, often for life. Some smart “teachers” use this, and make a very good profit on those “seekers” who try desperately to get to the place they’ve never left. The cure from this disease is easy – just see that there is nothing to seek.
Open your eyes, friend, open your eyes. It’s all it takes, really. You are here, now, always. Admit it. No getting out of presence, even during imagination. Don’t create a destination of something that is here already. Admit the obvious, relax and simply enjoy your life – it’s truly worth enjoying.
Best of luck to you, and all the seekers.
April 30, 2007 at 2:40 am
Every time someone discusses the sequence, I picture the Macarena. Am I the only one?
April 30, 2007 at 4:16 am
To Rabbi Burns writes about presence: “It’s not a destination. There’s no need for sequences, etc. We’re in the present whether we like it or not.”
This of course would be wonderful, if true, but just shows you have not yet verified the concept of sleep, identification, and imagination. If you were always present, you don’t need a school or any work on yourself. I understand you and many feel that to be true, and that is why shools only exist for those that understand the nature of sleep. This is a basic premise.
Siddiq
April 30, 2007 at 4:53 am
Kiran
I would simply love to see you have the courage to mention all of us ladies, as well as couples that have turned down your slimey proposals, even after you became a cute little baby.
A higher state for you is when your penis travels from a vertical postiion to a horizontal position.
Please stop hiding behind Cassandra’s skirt trying to evoke pity and compassion. Her memory deserves better.
Lastly, you are not living the contradiction, you are the contradiction. You love you hate…it all depends if someone is going to give you a “higher state” or not.
Formermsamerica
April 30, 2007 at 5:20 am
“I’ll give it a try”8/13
Whats going on?. You missed the whole point of my post and picked 1 of 3 random examples that I used to illustrate my point about having incarnational variety and then went into a tirade about global warming.I noticed that of the 3 examples that you assumed that I was the redneck with 4 dogs and a gas guzzling car and not the muslim woman or catholic priest.I figure that this can’t be the thought processess of a sentient being so I went back through other posts you made to other bloggers and noticed that they all involve some major misunderstandings with what they said. There has to be a good reason for this I thought to myself so I tried inputting my post through a random word generator/decoder and sure enough the message that came out was ” Hi my name is Cathy Priest and I have a big gas guzzling truck, like global warming and you just try and stop me.”
What we have going on here is some sort of dimensional crossover where all the words and meanings get scrambled because I think you are writing from some other planet–I’ll bet my shiney green proboscus on it. You can pick up one of these word scramblers in the 3rd quadrant of the snartleblast sector If you want to take any meaningful part of this forum. Thanks
April 30, 2007 at 5:42 am
FenceRider and Lady B, and others:
Thanks for sharing your thoughts… really nice posts.
April 30, 2007 at 5:54 am
Just read Zach’s #337 posting
I laughed so much, such humor! Bless you, Zach!
And I needed a good laugh. I felt kind of depressed when Fence Rider jumped of the fence to continue his life without the FOF.
It felt safe sitting next to him, a fellow fencer in distress.
Don’t get me wrong, I admire him, he has guts and courage,
and I love the way he received so many supportive postings.
I hope when my time comes ……
For me a shift has taken place, I feel emotionally free, the veil really has been lifted and what I see is a beautiful place, wonderful people, but it is almost like a movie, I feel strangely detached. I was angry, sad, I mourned, but now some kind of peace has settled in. I will have to let this run its course, there are more people involved then just me, but when the time is right I will jump of the fence, just like William did.
April 30, 2007 at 6:37 am
To Lady B, (38)
Dear Friend,
Thank you.
Elena
April 30, 2007 at 6:46 am
Inner Confussion: all that I have wrote it was from a higher minds, I think you are the “RETERD”
All that one has inflicted one has to suffer.
Rodney Collin.
The deviousness of the human mind, and not truth itself, produces contradictions.
April 30, 2007 at 6:48 am
Sorry Inner Confussion about my spelling, I wanted to say that you are the “RETARD”
April 30, 2007 at 7:37 am
Lady B,
Love to all of you.
From the place of acceptance new possibilities can arise.
Leaving or not
You are.
A friend of mine has left 6 weeks ago.
The not talking to “ex students” rule does not seem to be followed much.
He receives so much love from people who are in.
It is a gift.
There is a group of people beside the fof and there are gatherings spontaneous of people, meeting the innies and the outies, very alive, real and sincere.
My guess is that some of your friendship might deepen as you are not the only one who is leaving. You might be in fo a surprise.
Love to you, joy and courage.
April 30, 2007 at 7:38 am
Traveler, #42, I feel your pain. But Puppetji only wants what’s best for you.
Charles R. #12, so well said, so clear, thanks.
(student=child,yes?)
Peter, #34, and anyone else who’s just left the fof, my 2 cents: Congratulations, it takes a lot of guts. Be kind to yourself as much as possible.
Rabbi, #43, rotfl
Siddiq=Howard Carter?????
Maybe people are taking shifts?? Just wondering.
Golden Fleece, your original “alchemical” post was brilliant and hilarious. Thanks.
JoelF
April 30, 2007 at 8:00 am
Dear Siddiq and other readers.
There have been mothers whose son have been Robert’s lovers or approached…many sons.
Many daughters who are marrying men and greencards play a role o, I am sorry it must be real love.
You do not see depressed people? Where do you live? Ask our doctors how often they prescribe anti depressants. Maybe not more then in Marysville. But we are very much more luckier as you REMEMBER.
Nobility? You might do some more research. Yes, we have blue blood in the fof who are completely sponsored, house, medical bills, education for children, cars etc. partially from “our” donations or when we go to events. I am not quite sure. Ask L for more details.
Ooo and then the children…
Comparing our children to an average American city is useless. Children in America are not a good example. A country who treats it children well is wise as children are the future. Comparing those children to healthy societies…you might be I for a surprise. Did you know that “our children” from early age on will tell non fellowship children, “I do not want to sit next to you because your mom is not a friend of my mother” and much more. Older children, express them selves less gracious to non fof member children.. Who are our children imitating? Bullying, no our children do not bully and by the way they do not use any kind of drugs….Where have you been all these years? O I forgot we are all much luckier not better.
I am sorry for you and I love you.
April 30, 2007 at 8:21 am
Post #16!
You have forgot few more titles:
Gold Alchemy, King of Heart…and one more just for “inner circle” use – ASS #7
(and as far as I remember Gurdjiev never spoke about that one).
April 30, 2007 at 8:39 am
46. Exlax 101
“Without getting too intellectual here, RC was a failed student of PDO who was a failed student of G.. Connect the dots. Notice a pattern here?”
Yeah, and Gurdjieff was a failed Sufi.
April 30, 2007 at 8:42 am
46 Exlax 101.
I forgot to add, “and you’re a failed FOF student.”
Maybe I’ll be one too. It’s always useful to apply one’s criticism of other to oneself.
April 30, 2007 at 9:09 am
Dear Siddiq
The school – we all seem to have created our own reality of this. In this instance yours, mine, Lady B’s.
In regard to Lady B, you say “ I am very sorry for you..” What about compassion, do you not feel the suffering?
“ children appear to me healthy and well adjusted, not mistreated, not in any danger.”
Did you read the posts 7/254 of Ms. Reality Check and 7/255 of Heather a daughter of students. Maybe will learn more of what our children actually experience as more of them are now accessing the blog.
Again to Lady B “…parents (of which I am one and I assume you are too, which makes me wonder why we have never connected…”
Not sure if Lady B is a parent but I am. And I guess I could pose the same question to you. But real no matter, there are worlds within worlds here.
And being a parent is not the only criteria for caring about children. Some have given up that opportunity to follow the will of the Teacher. Some far more than that.
As the terra firma now shakes beneath my feet, more and more of my thoughts turn to my children. Fellowship born and bred. Wonderful and magical, constant source of joy.
But also, my thoughts turn to the payment they have made for me to follow my path. Uprooted from centre to centre, city to city, country to country in my pursuit of the good student.
My solace was the students that formed a major part of their life.
Then we moved to Mecca.
Hey mama, your emperor wears no clothes.
This is a real school, real school. Wonderful students, wonderful students. I chanted.
Still love you ma, but really no clothes, no clothes.
Best to you Siqqid, may your children have the love and care of fellow students as mine have had, but have no illusions that this is a school with a heart for children… or women for that matter.
Cake
Shout out: Renald your mom says hi. Once you may have walked in my steps. Now, it seems I am walking in yours. Funny that, eh?
April 30, 2007 at 9:25 am
I’ll give it a try: BUT since you went down the global warming route i’ll stand up for our fictional red-neck by saying that she probably isn’t sitting in her air-conditioned environment with computer on 24/7 blaming other people for global warming just because her global warming efforts are hidden back at the power station.She has just as much right to create green house gas as you.
April 30, 2007 at 9:50 am
I left the FOF so long ago that it seems odd to be spending so much time reading hundreds of messages on this blog. Obviously I was not as finished with FOF as I thought I was! I still have feelings for people I left behind, many of whom I was open with in a way that I had been with very few others before. It pained me that they were under orders not to have anything to do with people such as me. I also have feelings for those who joined after me, people I never met. I am very glad for this forum, because it has made it much easier for people in the group to learn the truth, if they wish to do so. Thanks, Sheikh!
The most important truth to understand about FOF, as I see it, is that memembership in this “school” is absolutely NOT a requirement for awakening to your true nature. The time has come for such childish ideas to be abandoned. This abandonment is happening here and in many other places where former cult members meet and share experiences (i.e. the TM-free Blog, where, among other stories, you can read about people who would leave home to meditate all day while their children would be grouped together unsupervised and subject to horrible sexual abuse).
Most people will do anything to avoid truly seeing themselves. For spiritual seekers, a way to avoid seeing themselves may be to invest their hopes in a guru, a teaching, a group, a church. This is one way of escaping from their fears, because now they say can they “belong.” They are one of the “chosen people.” I would say that the true path (if one can call it a “path”) is incompatible with such comforting superstitions. And anyone who tries to convince you to believe in such superstitious nonsense is not your friend, and certainly not a “teacher” worthy of the name. Their aim is not to help you, but to use you for their own selfish ends.
It is both heartening and enjoyable to read the words of old friends, as well as people I don’t know. I really like reading what Joel, Charles, Bruce, Sandra and many others have had to say. All are very insightful. Duncan made me laugh today when he reminded me of his 40 days of silence, a period in which he was more overbearing than he was when he talked! (But hey, it was worth a try, LOL)
It saddened me to read the stories of those who distanced themselves from their families, the “sleeping life people.” I also did this to a degree, for a time, and as a parent now I can understand the pain my parents and siblings must have felt. I hope FOF is not still telling people to do this, and if it is, I can only say to people currently in the group: Don’t do it!
Charles R’s statement that a turning point for him came when he studied another teaching (that of Meher Baba) is very interesting. I had the same experience, but with another teaching (Ramana Maharshi’s). This teaching in fact helped accelerate my departure from FOF. It was important for me to see that there were other equally valid approaches to the truth. How naive and arrogant it was of me to decide, at age 22, that I had found the highest teaching of all!
Good luck to those of you who want to reform the school, whether from within or without (via litigation). I have strong doubts that anything significant can be achieved by such means, but I guess you’ve got to do what you’ve got to do. More promising, IMO, is the idea of a website where all the facts can be brought together.
BTW, does anybody know what happened to Donald M., the #2 guy who left around ‘75? I wish I had called him at the time and asked why he left.
Mark H.
FOF member 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
April 30, 2007 at 10:43 am
I am a student as I mentioned in a previous post, but I enjoy the ability to make observations and to make criticisms constructive or otherwise that this blog gives the freedom to do.
Two things I have observed from living at Apollo/Isis is that if you want a job done properly do not hire a student ( with a few exceptions). ‘Life’ people are more reliable.
The second is that, has anyone else ever thought that the Galleria, from the outside, just looks like a Mc Donalds?
April 30, 2007 at 11:30 am
To I’ll give it a try:
Okay, I think we’re on better ground considering actual practice, rather than trying to beat theoretical partridges out of the bushes for evermore!
To take your example of ‘being kind’ and ‘external considering’… Being kind is obviously a good thing, you’re doing something for someone outside yourself. Now, can you continue being kind to them in the face of a hostile reaction – internally or externally? If you have found a way of continuing to pay attention to both their and your own inner worlds – and remained free of the demands of both – you are in pole position! You are much more likely to be able to find a way to CONTINUE TO BE GENEROUS…
External considering means being able to sustain that more complete sense of pleasure in oneself and others, whatever the circumstances – for as long we can. My experience is that, if you use external considering (or equivalent) as an actual practice, after a while you begin to love it. There is no place internally you would rather be, because you feel a sense of balance, and freedom from identifying too strongly with reactions (theirs or yours). In other words, you are in a right and harmonious relation to yourself, and everyone around can feel it!
So yes, there is a difference. Being kind, you may still be at the mercy of a negative reaction (“someone doesn’t appreciate me enough” etc..) and bounce back to its opposite. With a bit of awareness added, there’s less likelihood of a bounce-back, you can stay in your ‘generous’ position for longer.
Buddha said something about forgiving others primarily for our own benefit, so that we don’t carry the resentment around with us for longer than necessary. Enjoy your day, one and all!
April 30, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Hello all,
Some of you may have heard of Jeanette’s “aftertheFOF” Yahoo group:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aftertheFOF
For those of you who are interested but who are unfamiliar with Yahoo groups, here’s some more information:
You can connect with former members without posting any comments on the “aftertheFOF” message board. In other words, when someone posts his/her name and email address, you can connect with them by sending a private email.
Sheik’s blog is posted “in the clear” for everyone surfing the internet to see. However, only members of the “aftertheFOF” group can view comments on the “aftertheFOF” message board.
Similar to this blog, you can choose an anonymous screen name. Members can’t view your name and email address until you post it on the message board. Only Jeanette will know your name and email address initially after signup.
If you are not ready to communicate with group members, you can simply view comments on the message board.
If you’d prefer not to use your “regular” Yahoo email address for the group, you can create a new Yahoo email account that’s used solely for Jeanette’s group.
Signing up for a Yahoo email address is free of charge, and signing up for the aftertheFOF Yahoo group is also free of charge (Yahoo makes money from the advertising).
To create a new Yahoo email account and join the “aftertheFOF” Yahoo group, do the following:
Go to http://www.yahoo.com.
In the upper-right corner of the page, click the Mail link, or click the envelope icon.
Click the “Sign Up” link.
Follow the user interface for sign-up instructions.
Once you have created a new Yahoo address, open http://groups.yahoo.com/group/aftertheFOF.
Click the “Join This Group” button.
Follow the user interface for sign-up instructions.
On the aftertheFOF home page, Jeanette wrote: “This is intended to be a place where former members of the group, Fellowship of Friends, can find each other. It can simply be a point of contact for people, since we are spread out all over the world, or can be used to post questions or discussions. While we all have something in common this is not intended to be a place for discussing the FOF, we have all moved on, and I would love to hear of what people have found since leaving the group.”
The group currently has about 20 members. The number has steadily increased during the past month. Looking forward to hearing from you!
April 30, 2007 at 5:02 pm
This is a very personal letter ot Mr. Unoanimo,
So much for all your painbody theory, let me open your eyes a little wider and tell you ever so directly and without any softness in my mouth that you have not even come close to ever transforming real suffering and your posts show it consistently.
You are here like many others to show us your little strengths and undermine what is being said by superficially criticizing others avoiding the issues.
You have not understood that it is not mine or anybody else’s personal painbody what is at stake here and if you think schools are to produce painbodies that people have to endlessly try to transform then you must be some kind of sick masochist that would be doing a much better job joining Robert and his kind.
You show an intellectual verbosity that is trying to avoid real suffering at all cost as if you had never verified the value of being punched in the nose by someone who had gotten tired enough of your presumptousness.
You think quoting Ekhart Toll will give you enough back up to stand for what you’re saying but it is another disguise no better than those that hide behind Robert to think that what they are saying has any value.
Surely there is more to Echart Tole than this insignificant presentation of pain body that you are giving us pretending that you are so much above pain that everything in this blog is nothing but the
“little suffering” “canned food”
of schools, nations, and individuals for future transformation.
Let me ask you Mr. Unoanimo who must be trying to suggest by the uno that you are unified and by the immense superiority with which you seem to expose that you are above pain and can therefor “DO’, what you think the struggle of any individual, school, or nation is but the confrontation of suffering both real and unnecessary in our lives.
You sound so much like the sick people I’ve known for so long that think you can jump into consciousness avoiding any sort of pain, any actual practice of living that in the end your words remain just empty words because you show no practice and no willingness to consider what is being exposed in this blog about the Fellowship of Friends and not about your many theories on pain bodies.
Come on buddie, give us some real taste of your self and try to be less soft so that I can get a serious look at the stuff you are made of so that I can start respecting you because if you just want to act like those I have put up with for seventeen years, know that I have just enough practice with people like you to question you right down to the bones.
I had not bothered to look at your e-mails before you addressed me personally because they seemed an issue I was not concerned about and wished to respect your right to speak but if you want to pick a fight with me then let me tell you that I am eager to fight and since the Fellowship is showing itself so incompetent I do not mind filing my teeth with another similar opponent.
Why don’t you start by telling me about any suffering you’ve ever been able to transform if you want me to believe that you understand anything about pain body and you are not just a pain in the ass. Because if you want me to believe that you do not suffer then you must be an angel like Robert Burton.
Surely you haven’t heard the angle that the Absolute is consistently transforming suffering, that’s right, you’re an Echart Tole freak who thought you’d get into this discussion to show your infinite knowledge and superiority although you really have nothing to do with the Fellowship of Friends and are above everybody else here, but really because you’re so infinitely lonely having put off any toll freaks by your superiority that you have to come and do it in a blog in the hope of finding someone compassionate enough to help you look at the pea size of your heart.
Maybe I could get a little softer now and tell you dear that in the system I work with only false personality is willing to undermine others all the time so that it can keep itself pumped up. It can only see what it can criticize and put down, so if there’s anything besides false personality in your ‘little painbody,’ please let it out so that you don’t suffocate yourself in your sick state.
I take back my words on your honoring me with your sincerity, you insult me every time you address me so if you care not to address me you will not have to hear from me.
April 30, 2007 at 5:22 pm
Siddiq (53) quotes me “We’re in the present whether we like it or not.” and says “This of course would be wonderful, if true, but just shows you have not yet verified the concept of sleep, identification, and imagination.”
In fact I verified sleep, identification, and imagination over 20 years ago and worked long and hard to overcome them by making efforts to be present. A couple of years ago I realised that this was having only very limited results – short periods of presence, nothing permanent.
About a year ago I realised that the verifications of ’sleep’ etc were in my mind only and were nothing more than an intellectual construct that was actually separating me from reality.
Once the unreality of the mind is seen it becomes clear that everything occurs in presence and that there’s nowhere to go, no efforts necessary. It’s really just a small shift in perception. But the FOF and the 4th Way are for the most part pointing in completely the wrong direction!
On the other hand, if you enjoy being in the FOF in a country club kind of way, why not?
RB
April 30, 2007 at 5:45 pm
A great thank to Unoanimo, post 7/50, bringing so much information to the subject of “pain body”.
Pleaaaaaaaaase, keep posting!
You suggest gahtering as much material as possible and we can only agree.
Can you share with us what you have already found (Books, DC, and so on)?
Kiss.
To Another name 7/61.
I specially liked the “innies” and “outies” labels… And that they meet is wonderful fact to know!
On the subject of “destination”:
The validity of this concept is important in FOF tradition.
It is not for the non-dualists.
They can meet though, and they do, here, in the blog, like the “innies” and “outies”…
I am glad some voices of the “innies” are re-appearing here.
They make this con-versation (con-servation!) more energetic.
Let’s take turns:
I will be your stone of touch so you can verify you have gold and you will be mine…
“OUT OF A GREAT NEED…” (Hafiz)
April 30, 2007 at 6:42 pm
I read Clara Elena’s post #73 and unoanimo’s post #50. It’s amazing that I can relate to what BOTH of you are saying.
Clara Elena, I love your passion and directness and intelligence and courage to write everything you’ve written in this blog and I hope you continue to do so. Thank you so much for giving what you have to give to us. But I also really like what unoanimo is saying in post #50. I don’t know… Maybe if I hadn’t read “The Power of Now”, I wouldn’t be able to relate to what unoanimo is saying. But there’s something “to” what he/she is saying, and I truly don’t believe it was meant as insult to you. In fact, I’m sure he/she feels the same as I do, and is glad you’re here on this blog with us. I am being very open to what unoanimo is saying, because I think he/she is “onto something.”
I love you both.
-2b
April 30, 2007 at 6:49 pm
P.S. To Mr. or Mrs Unoanimo,
I thought I’d finished but it was a mistake that I wish to correct.
You refer to Higher M and myself because you’re so desperate for attention that you think that is where the action is in this blog.
And if I say:
“I am not free of making mistakes and you have no idea how difficult it is to tread my way above the fear of not having been considered “good enough” for seventeen years to consider myself “good enough” to question this institution down to the ground. But I am going to try. If I was not “good enough” to support them I might be “good enough” to go against them.”
it is not to put people in a “disadvantage’ in relating to me, it is to ask those less “cemented” than yourself to consider the place where I am coming from. Just “consider” it which I know you, Mr. Unoanimo cannot because no matter what people do you’ll say it is the snake doing it since you can see nothing but snakes so that you can feel more comfortable with your own:
You say,
In Reply to quote from Posting #30/8
Again, this is Pain body ego speaking. Spiritually there is no ‘real reason’ to suggest to another that since they do not know or cannot experience the pain one has felt that they themselves are at some disadvantage in relating to you: this only alienates the speaker more from ‘the real world’ and sets their particular Pain body away from the Positive Pain bodies who wish to sooth the pain by relating their own pain to it, i.e., ‘Misery loves company.’
Yet, even so, (if the Negative Pain ego does relate to the companionship of other more ‘jovial’ sufferers) this is a circular food chain, the snake swallowing its tail eventually breaks its own back.
You say:
Dear Yesri Baba,
I would like very much to describe what it is ’specifically’, though this would be ‘my story, my pain body’s profile’. Rather I will point you and others to Tolle’s observations concerning it: try and find as much as possible from him on this.
Yes, Mr. Unoanimo, you would much rather explain your theories putting other people down than exposing your own inexistent work on the transformation of suffering. You do a great job at showing the magnanimity of your being.
You say:
Some burdens can be transformed, others, from a present-point-of-view are to be walked straight through and out the other side…No need to stay in the bowling alley if the robotic pin setting device is not working.
You mean your robotic pin setting device is not working enough to actually allow you to not go through this whole blog avoiding the issued but side walking it with your theories so that you can do exactly the same Robert and the inner circle in the Fellowship of Friends is telling the rest of us to do? That our suffering is something to transform on our own and that the burden the teacher and they are laying on us is the necessary burden that we are supposed to carry.
You say:
“The beautiful part of this ‘walking straight through’ is that it is a conscious individual process”.
Indeed you are a poor inner circle student who has had to resort to Eckhart Tolle for your credibility because you cannot find enough on Robert and you are bringing us back to the
“beautiful process of INDIVIDUALLY transforming”
our suffering so that we leave The Fellowship of Friends unquestioned.
Then you say:
there are no rules or exact form to this ‘walk’, though conscience plays a great part of it and one’s real-self-present.
but what you really mean is that the rule is that one has to do it on one’s own if one is present enough so that one does not do it socially and actually takes any more serious actions against the Fellowship of Friends than individually transforming the suffering it has produced.
You tried hard dear but let me tell you, I will not indulge in fighting with the insignificance of the Fellowship responses such as yours for a long time and if this blog is not the right medium to sort our differences out and come to some sort of healing then there are so many other more serious means to be heard and understood and I will go as far as any medium allows me until you come and meet me face to face.
April 30, 2007 at 7:08 pm
MarkH, #69
“I left the FOF so long ago that it seems odd to be spending so much time reading hundreds of messages on this blog. Obviously I was not as finished with FOF as I thought I was!”
Ditto that, Mark. I’ve also found things I needed to say but never did, and been touched by connections to people I didn’t realize I still had. Thanks for your thoughtful post.
The Rebbe, #74
“About a year ago I realised that the verifications of ’sleep’ etc were in my mind only and were nothing more than an intellectual construct that was actually separating me from reality.”
In retrospect, doesn’t it seem that most of the so-called “work” of fof is happening only in the mind? When I flushed the 4way and fof teachings (as much as I could) it was precisely because these “intellectual constructs” were standing between me and what was in front of me.
As with many posts, Siddiq’s tells us more about Siddiq than anything else. I still wonder if the group of fof posters here are tag-teaming the blog and just changing names (Where oh where is Howard Carter now?)
Later…
JoelF
April 30, 2007 at 7:14 pm
To Rabbi who writes: “…no efforts necessary. It’s really just a small shift in perception. But the FOF and the 4th Way are for the most part pointing in completely the wrong direction!”
And to No Person who wrote:
“Open your eyes, friend, open your eyes. It’s all it takes, really. You are here, now, always. Admit it. No getting out of presence, even during imagination. Don’t create a destination of something that is here already. Admit the obvious, relax and simply enjoy your life – it’s truly worth enjoying.”
I respect your understanding which you both have expressed throughout this blog very well, however this still has me questioning, as I can verify that when I am in imagination I simply do not exist at all, there is just day dreaming, (perhaps in the present moment as it must be going on somewhere somehow), but if I am not there (present) to experience it, what is the point?
Our different understanding does explain why you both do not feel a need to be in a school. And I do enjoy my life, that is not the point. So when you say, “open your eyes”–that is exactly what I am trying to do! If you are already present always, as you state, why the need to even open ones eyes? Is is not to experience reality, get out of imagination?
To Cake Please who wrote: “In regard to Lady B, you say “ I am very sorry for you..” What about compassion, do you not feel the suffering?”
Yes I do feel compassion and that is why I wrote to Lady B with my observations. I really do not see the children the way she writes, nor a number of other issues.
One reason I write is, although I know that I may be blasted on this blog, it is may be useful for anyone to know that there are different viewpoints out there and that not all the complaints are shared by all.
The very proof of that is that Lady B was for many years very dedicated, and now is seeing matters very darkly. I do not believe that it is all dark, as some apparently do. (neither is it all sunshine and roses in my view–this is exactly where relativity comes in and seeing things as they are).
But if even one thought from one person on this blog can make a difference for one other person, the entire effort is worthwhile. I offer my thoughts for that reason.
Best to all,
Siddiq (not Howard Carter)
April 30, 2007 at 8:04 pm
To the Former Clara Elena Haven
There are a few of us who joined and left the FOF who went on to become delusional about our level of being. We dwelled in the land of imagination thinking how much we were valued, or how much influence we had over others.
Your sense of delusion, however, is a special case.
While I was in the FOF, I never understood how some ladies who shared a bed with Girard came away thinking that in addition to receiving his love, they also received, through some mysterious process of osmosis, his level of being.
Your imaginary picture of yourself was a joke then, and as I read your postings, it still is.
During those events when you would sit next to Girard, giving angles and taking up Girard’s space, we were all too polite to ask you please keep quiet and let Girard talk.
You were so filled with yourself that you were unable to realize that we weren’t making efforts to attend these events to hear you, we were coming to hear Girard.
You have yet to learn the fine art of simply being quiet. Now would be an ideal time to absorb the teachings of the System regarding one’s imaginary picture of oneself.
Wake up and smell the Columbian coffee.
Formermsamerica
April 30, 2007 at 8:17 pm
Reply to Post #75 and #73
Thank you You-me-us-they:
Thank you for your encouragement; Pain Body is a theory until you have a personal experience with it. For now I would stick with Eckhart Tolle: for shear emotional depth and being, he introduces the ‘aha’ the best.
His ‘personal story’ of how he became who he is today explains allot about Pain body, he uses it in many of his lectures as a reference point, much like the FoF uses the idea of the ‘machine’, though Pain body is not as obvious as ‘The Machine’.
It is the machine inside the machine… which must sound a bit too much for FoF members, yet, as you yourself know by now, the four lower centers are not always ‘painful’, yet something gets inside them at times and steers them over the edge.
Oftentimes even overlooking the most common-sense ‘boss’ of all, the King of Clubs; which many FoF people have often mistakingly called the same as Pain body…yet it is not.
The four lower centers are an entirely neutral phenomenon, it is the Pain body which brings hardness to the King of Clubs and doomsday predictions to the King of Hearts, Depression to Non-existence, Too many I’s about the same thing to the King of Diamonds and cleaning one’s brand new motorcycle with a toothbrush to the King of Spades.
________________________________
A Reply to Post #73
Dear Clara,
It looks like we need to meet pretty soon.
You know me, intuitively, deeply.
I am not shocked that ‘you’ would have such a response to my reply via one of your paragraphs. Honestly, this Post #73 is not you, I know you, it is not you.
The only part of oneself that can be insulted is the insulter in all of us who doesn’t get to be first when having received an insult…
Mostly it is just a surprise to vanity that it didn’t see the truth coming or that another pain body could be so similar to its own. It is ironic that Vanity cannot feed on the indifference of others, though does of its own.
I will refrain from quoting you until I figure out a way to meet you. Sometimes we have to take chances with one another to see if help can be received; perhaps eye contact is better than this blog.
I will say this, that the response you wrote is not subtracting to the sharing of my understanding of Pain body, it is verifying it for readers.
Often ‘presence’ looks like ‘vain indifference’, we cannot police these perceptions and simply have to continue becoming what we sense is our ’self’.
I will not justify my being by explaining the suffering I have transformed, particularly on this blog site, which already has enough ‘war stories’.
It seems that your Pain body is asking for more unnecessary trouble by putting a negative ’spin’ on my Post, not that the FoF issues fall in that category, though I do believe that only our real self knows when to stop transforming the same ole stuff for the sake of True Personality Hobbies. Your posting, the pain body’s desire to see my face in the mirror: projection is not going to help us escape the wheel of automatic life on earth.
It is interesting that Pain bodies save the ‘blood’ shed by others and paints with it long after those wounds have healed in order to continue its identifications.
Something in you has taken a very neutral article that I have written for all and interpreted it as a painful, worthless thing…this of course is not at all what is true to its place here…Reply #75 shows this.
To me the FoF is synonymous to something inside yourself, it is simply a symbol of that which we need or yearn to transcend.
It is an affirmation, like all ‘forms’ and until we truly start to consciously grow up and gain some conscious grip on our ‘leaks’ nothing will be built, no escape, no unconditional love, no self. Yet this is not ‘bad news’ it is simply what is often termed as ‘Chile pepper’ or ’spiritual urgency’.
The raw, negative energy that you express is an interesting ‘photograph’ for the FoF, for it is this kind of ‘leak’ that has been for 35 years artificially bent into a circular shape by your teacher… I ask you Clara, be a soul-superman, bend your circle into a straight line and love me, someone who, 5 years ago mirrored your own pain body… After all, it was through its reflective vibrations that we met one another and gained an immediate ‘affinity’…Yet, as most friendships start off, they unconsciously notice those parts of the other that will permit themselves to get away with the most amount of coffee table talk, weakness and mechanical strengths…(Not that we always did this, we did more than this, though the sentimentality of having led a painful, poetic odyssey was worshiped in a quiet way.)
It is a beautiful time that we have to not renew our friendship, rather, to tear down the comfortable pain-nest and walk around wearing egg shells on our heads.
Love to you all.
April 30, 2007 at 8:43 pm
An opinion (definition: a worthless grouping of words that purports to be worthy of purport):
Not an ‘I’ shared on this blog is truthful, including THAT. When words are believed, ‘I’dentification is a self-accepted addition to “I AM” that makes of the believed words – lies (including words about/of/in non-dualistic language(ing). Like ripples on the pond of being; words can produce images that quickly fade into non-ness as their blah-blah nature is intuited.
Worthless opinion #2:
Purposely standing in a place of “Not Knowing” is at least 44 times likier to produce some new understanding than standing in a ‘I know this’ place; almost, but not all, I’s related within this blog come from knowing – yet, even so, greater ‘not knowing’ stance occurs here than in most venues.
Wothless opnion #3:
Are you kidding me – After the first two worthless opinions, how come you continue to read this worthless ditty?
April 30, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Clara Elena Haven #73 : Once upon a time there was a house manager named Margret. One day we had an open meeting. Many people came. On the front row sat an anglo wearing the garb of an Indian guru all white.
As the meeting proceeded it was evident that Mr. all dressed in white was drawing attention to himself in a vain and cock-y way.
Anyway through out the meeting house manager Margret sparred with him it was one punch after another. I dont know what kept him standing.
Later when the meeting was over and we all retreated to the kitchen for coffee and cookies
I looked at Margret and motioned as a puncher and said,” one jab after another.” She smiled.
Margret was a martial. Elena you must be one tough Venusian.
April 30, 2007 at 9:29 pm
Rabbi Burns, #74 — great post. You wrote:
“Once the unreality of the mind is seen it becomes clear that everything occurs in presence and that there’s nowhere to go, no efforts necessary. It’s really just a small shift in perception. But the FOF and the 4th Way are for the most part pointing in completely the wrong direction!”
This was the great realization for me — the “dissonance,” if you will, of 1) being present versus 2) thinking of being present as a destination you had to work toward, and which you would arrive at in some imagined, better future. The absurdity of this contradiction hit me one day, and it released a floodgate of understanding.
It is a small shift in perception, as the Rabbi so aptly put it, and a very crucial one.
How can you travel to a destination where you already are?
Innernaut out.
April 30, 2007 at 9:57 pm
If this Harriet Baker (post #8/54), is so irritated about a natural orgasmic relationship based on full pleasure between couple(s). Than maybe she is just reinforcing and buffering the “innocent” orgies, between the Frogs. Please compare in this respect my other post # 211,blog 7 about FOrF “Freud or FROG”.
Anyway I have been together with Kiran for one year now and it has simply been the greatest year of my live. And the many “Higher States” were not only due to all the beautiful sex we had , but because of our new way of approaching all the challenges we are been given and the amazing transformation that occurs daily in his presence.
When I saw all the girls surrounding him after his return from Egypt, I did not yet have a connection with him, and the image that came to my mind was one of voluptuous vultures on an open wound , believing they were acting from the “9 of hearts”. As I perceived, they were more driven by their “G-spot”, I suggested him to invite them all for a group sex party in the style of the FOrF ‘s inner circle, this would have been the test for them all. But it was him who cautioned and said to me “They are not ready”.
For me the “Bakers woman” #54 is a good example of particularly American programming of “disgust towards sex” which is the FOrF basis, expressed in the fact of denial and the contradiction that America has more abused children and internet porn sites, than any other country in the world, beside being one of the leaders on Aids. For me as a Brazilian this is really totally foreign, as we are growing up with a much more natural relationship towards pleasure and sensuality.
The Christian-Jewish program, considers any sex that is not aimed at procreation as “Slimey”. By the way Hindu religion worships the erect phallus! Interestingly she writes “Slimy” as “Slimey” which contains “ME”, Freud would love this.
Maybe there is still too few Prices out there, that most ladies are fighting to become princes themselves and greedily are swallowing the frog …ops …too late
Those of you who are ready to see their relationship to sex just as any other “programming”, as a limitation and obstacle to awakening, I can recommend to do a course with http://www.ecstaticliving.com just as we did a month ago in Mexico and I can tell you this kind of learning is a lot more fun and many Higher states, even without penetration or the kind of mental masturbation which is so common on this Blog “for intellectuals”.
Kiss
loreta@beingpresent.net
below you can see a slide show how Kiran and me worship “the lingam” at a Hindu temple in the Fidji Islands:
http://flickr.com/photos/iloveyou2/sets/72157600160887676/show/
April 30, 2007 at 10:50 pm
To all that feel compelled to throw some stones at Kiran. What Kiran has gone through, few on this blog can even fathom. I do not feel he is “hiding behind C’s skirt.” There is no need to do so. Both were good friends. Cassandra is a beautiful and wonderful soul.
Although I may disagree on what Kiran or anyone else may feel is useful for evolution, as he sees it, at least for myself, far is it from me to be judging his postings.
I believe this Blog could be improved if we take less stabs at one another. There is a difference between pointing things out, observations, and rank negativity. The latter only detracts from the writer, as it must, of course, but does make this blog less than it can be.
Siddiq
April 30, 2007 at 10:55 pm
Innernaut and Rabbi,
Innernaut wrote: “This was the great realization for me — the “dissonance,” if you will, of 1) being present versus 2) thinking of being present as a destination you had to work toward, and which you would arrive at in some imagined, better future.”
Ultimately we all believe, I think, that no 2.–the thinking about present–is not the same as actually being present. My understanding however is that it does take work to get to no. 1–not that this work has to be a strained effort, but more of the effortless effort that Lao Tsu writes about, if that makes any sense. The reason I believe this is that besides the mind activity, which can detract and is not the presence, there still are impediments to simply being there, such as imagination being a big one.
Hope this explains what I think about this presence–dear to our hearts!
Best to all
Siddiq
April 30, 2007 at 11:12 pm
#85…
Sounds like a bunch of horse shit and bull pucky. Maybe it’s just vanity gone amok in search of power and more vanity. I think you’re preaching to the wrong choir.
It reminds me of a time when a “student” went to RB for a chief feature photograph. When they came back they said “He said it was vanity. thank God it wasn’t one of the others”.
April 30, 2007 at 11:45 pm
Given the new revelations from Peter Ouspensky via the Yale Library estate collection, I thought you might find the following web site to be of interest.
http://www.nonotgod.com
Claude Larson
April 30, 2007 at 11:54 pm
dear Harriet baker , post #80
you said to Clara:”we were all too polite to ask you please keep quiet and let …
That was called FEMININE DOMINANCE at the time
and is still now, beside the obvious jalousie
kiss
May 1, 2007 at 12:09 am
#50 unanimo
Thank you much for taking the time and effort to put together those thoughts. I will look at them a few times.
It is something important i think i and maybe others let slide by for too long. It seems everyone is injured throughout their lives to varying degrees and this tends to develope into a victim view of the world. The antidote oftem seems to be the flip side. Developing a toughness and strategies to show the world we are not the victim and we are in control even to the point that people may hoard billions of dollars and strive for more and more power and are still not content.
It may be that hurt is what leads us to search for “spiritual” answers. Yet it seems that can lead to the same game of victimization and pain and the attempt get the effort right so we are in control and advancing but it is only the other side of the coin when we could use totally different currency (to use a crappy metaphor).
Again, I appreciate your efforts and welcome any further thoughts you have along these lines
May 1, 2007 at 12:29 am
To harriet Baker 80
To the Former Clara Elena Haven
I am not that former yet but when I become I’ll take my name off that offends so many of you so pleasingly.
“While I was in the FOF, I never understood how some ladies who shared a bed with Girard came away thinking that in addition to receiving his love, they also received, through some mysterious process of osmosis, his level of being.”
You never understood too many things about the ladies that shared a bed with Girard but I am not about to tell you any more of them, you seem to like too much gossip.
“During those events when you would sit next to Girard, giving angles and taking up Girard’s space, we were all too polite to ask you please keep quiet and let Girard talk.
You were so filled with yourself that you were unable to realize that we weren’t making efforts to attend these events to hear you, we were coming to hear Girard.”
In case you havan’t noticed I realized it so clearly that I am way out here.
“You have yet to learn the fine art of simply being quiet”.
It won’t be happening as quickly as you would like.
“Wake up and smell the Columbian coffee.
Formermsamerica”
No wonder you have such attitudes, but they’ll do me such service in the next step.
And it’s so good to see the like of you come out into the real world and show what you’re like. Subjective and indoctrinated and unwilling to reason but delighted at insulting. Just too many of you hiding behind kisses to put up with it.
May 1, 2007 at 12:36 am
Rabbi Burns (74): Wow. That was very well said.
Whatever the Thinker thinks, the Prover will prove.’
And if the Thinker thinks passionately enough, the Prover will prove the thought so conclusively that you will never talk a person out of such a belief, even if it is something as remarkable as the notion that there is a gaseous vertebrate of astronomical heft (“GOD”) who will spend all eternity torturing people who do not believe in his religion. — Robert Anton Wilson
In other words, once you identify yourself with a particular belief, you will perceive reality in a way that fits with your belief. There is no escaping this, except to realize that it’s happening.
May 1, 2007 at 12:53 am
To Unoanimo, 81
I stand by everything I said. I am very glad that in this last post you are not trying to convince me not to question the FoF because that is what I am going to continue doing together with anyone who comes with sweet theories about how people whose role for twenty years was nothing but pay, pay, pay, should transform it on their own without questioning the Fellowship.
It’s just that you sound so much like the Fellowship itself. Leave quietly, nobody cares who you are or what you suffered. Pay and move on if you don’t like it. Money is always welcome but nothing else.
I do not believe in your innocence Unoanimo, not the slightest bit and you really don’t answer any of my questions.
This is as far as my conversation with you will go. I’ll listen to your answer if you wish but I will not answer you back. Just keep me out of your posts and your freedom of speech will be much freer.
May 1, 2007 at 1:02 am
Hey Claude. It’s old home week.
May 1, 2007 at 1:10 am
Helena, Loretta, folks… it is a moon.
May 1, 2007 at 2:15 am
Siddiq (79) “I can verify that when I am in imagination I simply do not exist at all, there is just day dreaming, (perhaps in the present moment as it must be going on somewhere somehow), but if I am not there (present) to experience it, what is the point?”
This is exactly the way the mind thinks about these things. The mind goes into imagination and when it emerges it says – oh terrible me, I was in imagination, must make an effort to be present. Then the mind intones the sequence and is present for a short period, then it goes into imagination again, year after year after year after year, until you die at more or less the same point as you started.
As soon as you see you are not the mind all these illusions and unnecessary activities can stop. The real you is never in imagination.
Sorry if this seems contradictory or confrontational, but once you see it it’s very clear.
Siddiq, your post 87 gets close to this, but it still sounds like the mind desparately trying to hang on to something vaguely rational.
Anyway, I wish you good luck, RB
May 1, 2007 at 3:04 am
Dear Elena and Inner Jewel,
‘The day before Jim MacLaren broke his neck, he woke up in his house in Boulder, Colorado, stirred out of bed earlier than usual by some strange energy. He left his then girlfriend, Pam, sleeping and went outside to sit in the backyard to eat his breakfast alone. The sun was coming up and the morning light was filmy and gold. MacLaren could hear his neighourr’s children playing next door. He’d bougfht a book outside with him to read, but he coulnd’t focus on it. He coulnd’t pay attention to his breakfast, either. He wasn’t even thinking about the Ironman he’d be competing in the next day. All he wanted was to sit in stillness and experience the inexplicable bliss that was surrounding him in this moment. And the the bliss started to grow within him. MacLaren moved from a state of contentment into a state of joy, and soon even the joy could not be contained, and it became a euphoria that spilled out over his whole body. He was overcome by a thrilling sense of what he could after only describe as anticipation. He’d never felt anything like this. He was laughing and crying at the same timne, elated beyond his senses.
Pam heard the noise and rushed out of the house to see what was wrong. He looked up at her through his tears and smiled. He was 30 years old. He was 24 hours away from becoming a quadriplegic, and he could not contain his excitement. ‘Pam’, he said, and he was never more certain of anything in his life, ‘Listen! Something amazing is about tho happen to me!’
There may be some who will say that this is only the mind playing tricks, or the King of Clubs coming to the foreground, some may say that this is a mere small epiphany or imagination. It matters little. To me it opened the doors to certainty that there are forces working on us, their motives unknown, and what we think may be helpful to our evolution or to our level of consciousness may not come in the form that we imagine it to be or wish for. All we need to do is to get out of our own way…
I have no personal agenda as to whether anyone chooses to remain in the Fellowship or not. I left at the beginning of 2003.
Alexis
May 1, 2007 at 3:23 am
It looks the Blog has attracted in Mrs. Baker another “becareful” to demonstrate to those who have ears to hear what some have come down to by being years in the FOF, the gods are organizing a parade of the fools.
This post by Harriet Baker # 54 really has the sophistication of style and the acidity that if seems to be inspired by being a long time FOF student. I do not know any Harriet, nor is she in the FOF directory but probably, its just another veil to keep her innocence. Just like her former name “MsAmerica” which really tells a lot about what she wants to be and her greatest identifications.
The only people in the FOF, I can remember to having asked previously, about group-sex together was coincidently Robert and Rowena T., Marla M. and Frederic Ch., Traci S. and Huib S.,…. So this post must be by either Marla, Traci or Rowena. The only FOF students we ever had sex with in the FOF, were our friend E. and Benjamin Y. who contacted me because he found us on an internet swinger site.
Dear Harriet / Former MsAmerica if you want to prove me wrong, just let us know your “real” name. Hope you were at least invited by Dorian and Mihail to one of their group orgies in RB bedroom… but certainly as a former Miss America this was easy.
Coincidently it was otherwise only Rowena and Robert T., at a dinner together with Cassandra that I proposed something like that. I did it, because even then I knew how fake Rowena was and I actually only wanted to give her a moment to ponder about her attitude. As good students they both took it without even a sign of surprise but politely declined.
Only month later Robert asked me, for a private talk and told me how disgusting this proposal had been for him and that he was worried I would be proposing similar things to new or young students. Now his own wife tried to betray him with me…. do you need any more prove that this is a divine comedy orchestrated by the gods to wake some of us up and put others to sleep.
Kiss
Kiran@beingpresent.net
Here is a video from us celebrating the phallus in an Indian temple in Fiji two month ago
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=466125&fr=yvmtf
May 1, 2007 at 3:35 am
Hello, I have a question.
How do you respond to someone saying that those students who get sexually involved with the teacher do so by their own free will?
I think this is a central point because the legal position is that these are adults who are capable of making a free choice and allow the teacher to do what he wants to do with them from their own volition as no one is pointing a gun at their heads.
Yet one of the fundamental psychological truths of the 4th way as presented by the Fellowship of Friends is that we do not have will.
I would be interested in hearing from those with direct experience. Does being close to Robert give you more of a sense of you being in charge of your life, or less?
How does this all equate with the esoteric idea of ‘giving up ones will’ to the teacher.
Thank you for your considered responses.
“Try not. Do or do not, there is no try.” Yoda
May 1, 2007 at 3:53 am
Radickieyo! And I thought all the trolls had left the building!! Welcome back, dear. And speaking of failures, I guess its true: A man’s weakness can be absolutely relied upon….
(weakness = feature)
May 1, 2007 at 4:23 am
Joel:
Yes, Lauren and I were married for many years, and have two sons, one of whom is older than I was when I joined the FoF. Times flies. Many of your angles were wise and entertaining, but I most appreciate you showing me how to mash garlic with a knife and salt. I now love to cook, and you were an influence.
May 1, 2007 at 4:42 am
March 21, 1950 It is extraordinary what doors the abandonment of talk, or words, seems to open–doors that talk prevented one from ever suspecting. First one has to get everything one can–and that is very much–from the right use of words; then when one has got from them all they can give, one must be brave enough to throw all that overboard and begin in a quite a different way”
“If one is not established in the present, then one is nowhere and nothing is possible.”
Rodney Collin
Oops, I forgot all quotes and Rodney is failure.
May 1, 2007 at 4:50 am
Hey has that Clara thing gone yet?
Talk about hurt your ears
May 1, 2007 at 5:22 am
To Siddiq or anyone with a good explanation:
As of today, there are 6,592,211,033 people living, seeking, breathing and being on planet earth.
As of today, according to Wikipedia, there are about 2,000 Fellowship members worldwide.
Is it true, then, that 6,592,209,033 humans are in deep trouble but that the remaining 2,000 are going to thrive?
Can anyone remind me of Robert’s exact explanation as to why 2000 humans are specially chosen and gifted and all the rest of humanity is not?
I’m having trouble wrapping my “useless” mind around the sheer numbers of lost souls and the blasted lack of fairness.
“To whom should I complain?” -Shakespeare “Measure for Measure”
Best of everything to everyone,
LL
May 1, 2007 at 5:38 am
Author: SACK, URSULA HILDE
Degree: PH.D.
Year: 1985
Corporate Source/Institution: University of Southern California
Source: VOLUME 46/12-B OF DISSERTATION ABSTRACTS INTERNATIONAL. PAGE 4414
Descriptors: PSYCHOLOGY, CLINICAL
Descriptor Codes: 0622
Purpose: This study takes a phenomenological, in-depth look at the process of voluntary disaffiliation from a religious cult or sect. A theory about the psychology and meaning of the experiences of ex-cult members, as they make the life transition of living independently from the former religious group, is presented.
Procedure: Three former, highly committed, long-term members of intensive religious groups (Nichiren Shoshu of America, Jehovah’s Witnesses, and Fellowship of Friends) participated in weekly dialogal interviews about the process of leaving the religion, for a period of nine months. Case studies were presented, and the data was analyzed to derive common themes about religious group disaffiliation.
Findings: The following themes represent the psychological structure of the phenomenon of intensive religious group defection. The ex-members experienced the following:
(I) Relationship to the former religion: (A) Need for a sense of mastery over their lives; (B) Continued belief in the doctrines of the former religious group; (C) Ambivalence and loss; (D) Confusion and frustration; (E) Despair and meaninglessness; (F) Feeling betrayed.
(II) Relationship to the self:
(A) Need for control;
(B) Need for perfection and denial of negative life conditions;
(C) Self-blame and self-doubt;
(D) Feelings of worthlessness;
(E) Alienation from self through denial of feelings.
(III) Relationship to others:
(A) Rejection by significant others;
(B) Fear of rejection and relationships;
(C) Need for caring and emotional nourishment;
(D) Anger at others;
(E) Isolation and loneliness.
Conclusions: Former members of religious cults and sects experience loneliness and isolation from the former religious group, isolation and alienation from themselves, and isolation from other people. Voluntary defectors leave in order to make their own decisions, and because they feel betrayed by the leaders of the group. In the transition period, ex-members experience confusion and ambivalence toward the former groups, and maintain beliefs in some of the religious doctrines. Ex-members have negative self-concepts, are lonely, and are frustrated because they have difficulty establishing new relationships and new lives for themselves.
(Copies available exclusively from Micrographics Department, Doheny Library, USC, Los Angeles, CA 90089-0182.)
May 1, 2007 at 6:55 am
#8/70, Butterfly
“The second is that, has anyone else ever thought that the Galleria, from the outside, just looks like a Mc Donalds?”
I had not quite noticed the similarity. The amusement park for kids is missing. You are right to only point to the outside though, because most people would find the interior decor more attractive and the food more interesting.
May 1, 2007 at 7:37 am
Thanks Rabbi for the response. I believe the only thing I could add to my prior statements is that the “efforts to be present” I referred to in prior posts is not some form of mind activity.
Siddiq
May 1, 2007 at 7:46 am
#80.harriet baker Says:
“you were unable to realize that we weren’t making efforts to attend these events to hear you, we were coming to hear Girard.”
So, why are you reading the excellent posts of Helena?
Just follow Girard’s counsel:
“frankly I now feel that I have better ways to use my time and energy. Girard Haven”.
May 1, 2007 at 8:26 am
Hi Siddiq, I like what RabbiBurns said about mind activity. He described it very precisely.
I think it’s not the mind activity or any other activity that is “a problem”. In fact there is no problem at all with mind activity, even with imagination. Because what we truly are – is none of this. Our true identity is not in the mind or it’s activity, so why struggle with unrelated stuff? Because it was declared a “problem” by somebody?
It’s not possible to get rid of imagination anyway (don’t we realize it already after so many years of struggle to control it?). Imagination seem to be a part of natural functioning of the brain, just like heart beat, breathing, blinking of eyes, or digestion -leave it alone. It is not YOU, it’s not taking you away – it’s like a shadow – can’t ever harm you.
But habitually we think that “we” disappear when imagination happens. I believed it for many years too, even “verified” it… Well, now I see that it is not so! Awareness is actually always there, as a subtle background for all, and in it imagination happens and passes like a little cloud. And then something else starts to happen, and then – next thing – thought, emotion – whatever. But some”thing” is always there to experience this, like a canvas of a painting to hold all the paint colors. Notice the background of awareness, it is subtle, but permanent, notice this aliveness that is there always whatever you do, get a taste of it.
As RB said, once you see it – it gets very clear. It’s also very simple, uncomplicated. A small inner shift in perception – and everything changes in the way you relate to things.
I too think that your post #87 showed some glimpses, “effortless effort”, exactly – please keep looking!
Sincerely wishing you good luck and clarity.
May 1, 2007 at 10:02 am
To Helena, remember that Lao Tsu said that “he who does not trust enough, shall not be trusted.”
This appears to applicable to your situation now.
Good luck.
Siddiq
May 1, 2007 at 10:08 am
#89
Thanks for the link Claude. I liked the line:
“…we are waiting for something new to happen, when it is something old not happening.”
May 1, 2007 at 11:35 am
Thanks No Person–I have a newfound appreciation for your sharing!
Siddiq
May 1, 2007 at 11:40 am
To Laughing Love,
I cannot provide you with the “official” explanation, but what I do know is that there is little room in the Fellowship these days for “feeling special and chosen” in the way we heard it, or interpreted it, for years. Seems like the methods have been simplified as we have less time to waste and we have been humbled as so many of us in different ways. There is a lot to be grateful for however, a big part of my life, to be sure.
Siddiq
May 1, 2007 at 12:51 pm
Rabbi #97, “as soon as you see you are not the mind all these illusions & activities stop. The real you is never in imagination.”
What does the idea, image & mantra ‘you are not the mind’ have to do with being present? It is merely an idea, a mind construct with which you come to the experience and color what is in front of you.
And what is the ‘real’ me? Which book or system (or anti system) will reveal to me this ‘reality’? Does this idea of the ‘real me’ have to mediate my immediate experience?
JoelF #78; you qoute Rabbi Burns and recognize a similiar experience of liberation from tyrany of interprative constructs; “these ‘intellectual constructs’ were standing between me and what is in front of me”. But I think you did not read him carefully. He writes “separating me from reality” and means to say ‘the reality that everything is consciousness and that you are never in a state of immagination or of inattention.’ Does this also corresponds to your experience?
Isn’t that one more tyranical intellectual/mind construct that distorts what is in front of one?
The 4way is comlex and pretentious; this non-duality thing is simplistic and superficial. Both of them are trying to convince me to look at the world in a certain religious way rather than just be present in the simplest manner.
Rabbi Burns #74; “everything occurs in presence and there is nowhere to go”. That’s a metaphysical assumption and I don’t quite understand it.
Functionally I know that if I do not bring a degree of attention to something it does not exist for me. Some are fed up with the ’school’ terminology (as I am) words like ’sleep’ & ‘immagination’, so we can use other describtions: ‘being aware’, ‘attention’; but the obvious fact is that you have to become more often than not active in regards to your own immediate experience in order to bring more presence into your life. You have to lift the eyes and look in order to see, you have to think in order to process information, you have to sniff in oredr to smell. (If you direct attention to your toe you sense it). Sometimes you may be overwhelmed by sensations or thoughts even if you do not invest attention but in the the case you always wait passively for life to ‘happen’ to you, your inner life will probably be a poorer affair. And so it is if you read only one poet (the lovely ancient programmatist Rumi, for example) or read only Advaitist literature. There are many ways to lose your ability to live fully: not to learn how to be present is one; not to question and to think for yourself is another.
If this active awareness is done in a relaxed manner than it is indeed a sort of ‘effortless-effort’ (Siddiq #87), and the internal impediments can be elegantly bypassed.
Often I discuss with people who do not get the effortless-effort. Some of them do not get the effortles part, and some do not get the effort part.
May 1, 2007 at 12:57 pm
Kiran, that last post (99) was really tacky, as was the video. Just thought you ought to know.
May 1, 2007 at 2:16 pm
No person:
you make it sound so simple, like it’s….right here…could it really be that simple? ..and..is it real? to paraphrase a Margaret Millar
presence is something that happens to you while you’re making other plans.
subway:
a trailer is a good idea, just not on the property
as some wise sage said, maybe puppetji
“you cannot see the slowest for the be’s”
May 1, 2007 at 4:51 pm
It looks like formermsamerica is either experiencing irreversible hormonal changes in her body which made her incapable of producing any other thoughts than poisonous, either she just needs a good shagging.
Although it’s hard for me to help with the former, the latter is easily changeable, please ask my husband Biggus Dickus.
Madam, I do hope you’d chill out; your writings as unpleasant as they are pointless. You act like a little vile doggie barking at people behind a fence of anonymity. It doesn’t give much credit to your former beauty (if there was any) or your mental abilities.
These days there are good hormonal replacements available for menopausal women; there is no need to suffer so much.
May 1, 2007 at 5:43 pm
Veronicapoe (106):
“Ex-members have negative self-concepts, are lonely, and are frustrated because they have difficulty establishing new relationships and new lives for themselves.”
This is certainly not true for any ex-members I know. Kind of the opposite actually – the time after leaving is exhilarating and full of wonderful realisations and possibilities. I guess the survey chose an unusual ex-member, or maybe times have changed since 1985.
RB
May 1, 2007 at 6:53 pm
Shout out to Claude Larson #89. Howdy, nice to hear from you.
Paul, thanks for the update. Didn’t know about your family, congrats. I have one son and have become much more of a cook in recent years. Hope you are well.
JoelF
May 1, 2007 at 7:02 pm
To Clara Elena,
Who more than you would be willing to defend
“freedom of speach” ?
Yet, when the speach causes trouble
(any sort will do: from being unvalued to being offended and what not),
you ask for silence?
Freedom of speach as much as freedom of anything (read/teach the “Theory of evolution” in schools, wear a scarf or being gay, just name it…)
is FRAGILE and needs the best vigilence
(free from opinions, preferences and so on…) from us all,
so it can be defended,
when in danger.
In the name of “freedom of speach”,
I am more enthousistic about its existence
than I can ever be about my agreement or my dis-agreement with its content.
Eventually, it comes to this:
May I enjoy or not enjoy your posts,
I will defend you posting!
“En passant”, thanks again Sheik for absorbing/moderating so much!
Hope you can follow that.
I am using you because of the peculiar position you take, nothing else, nothing personal.
It seems to make the idea clear.
I believe Unoanimo came from the same place when he used your post to illustrate his ideas and share his discoveries on Pain Body (Ekhart Tholle concept).
Let’s stay strong and firm to combat the true enemies!
Much love to us all!
May 1, 2007 at 7:06 pm
On The Pain Body:
May 1, 2007 at 8:48 pm
This blog was started a little over a year ago.
The first comment came on June 24, 2006 from someone named Barbara. It was a negative response to FOF and Robert Burton in particular.
The name of the blog is Fellowship of Friends-a cult for intellectuals.
In the fourth way it is mentioned that different methods, systems, ways, should not be mixed but used as references. The vocabularies are different is the main point.
“Pain Body” does not compute. Eckart Tolle does not compute. We stand and be in effortless wonderment does not compute.
So, now this blog which was once for discussion of the Fellowship is now a free for all, all twisted and illogical?
Machine within a machine? I have no work being in this new language.
May 1, 2007 at 9:07 pm
Readers please change in my last post:
The facts will continue to show how Robert’s favorites and just the favorite boys have abused……
to:
The facts will continue to show how Robert’s favorites and NOT just the favorite boys have abused……..
May 1, 2007 at 9:20 pm
#108 Siddiq
“Efforts to be present” are always a mind activity.
Any kind, always.
May 1, 2007 at 10:33 pm
Reply to ~ Yesri Baba Says:
“It is something important i think i and maybe others let slide by for too long. It seems everyone is injured throughout their lives to varying degrees and this tends to develope into a victim view of the world. The antidote oftem seems to be the flip side. Developing a toughness and strategies to show the world we are not the victim and we are in control even to the point that people may hoard billions of dollars and strive for more and more power and are still not content.
It may be that hurt is what leads us to search for “spiritual” answers. Yet it seems that can lead to the same game of victimization and pain and the attempt get the effort right so we are in control and advancing but it is only the other side of the coin when we could use totally different currency (to use a crappy metaphor).
Again, I appreciate your efforts and welcome any further thoughts you have along these lines.”
____________________________________
Thank you Yesri Baba for the invitation for “further thoughts”…
Yes, it is a dynamic womb we jostle around in… I find that many have a difficult time seeing themselves as evolving beings, part then, part now, part future or brand new in this one and only moment. It is the pain body that excludes the moment, for it is the ‘brand new’ that interrupts its morning newspaper and coffee. Something in us simply will not let go of the mother and father points of view (Adam & Eve, God & Devil, Man #4 & Man #7 or #8).
The human psyche is born into a vast array of structure created by the four lower centers and their enslavement to the pain body appetite’s and reactions… A story to demonstrate this.
One day I went to see what some in your school term as ‘a life person’, this person was a sort of Harley Davidson kinda guy, tough, silent, looking for real man associative energies. I like these guys allot because they (to me) are the Viking psyches transferred, like in a time machine, from some time period where men drank allot of beer, took weird herbs and fought battles in their bathing suits.
There are 5 layers of ego covering ‘man’s possible evolution’…
Instinctive, moving, intellectual, emotional, spiritual. I like the Harley guys because they show me the beginning ego structures, the rock bottom so to speak, this does not mean that they are lower, far from it, actually they are more receptive to certain influences, since they have yet to be painted by the other 3 layers, that is, that most of them are ‘in essence’ although it is often times damaged-essence, this is not to be confused with false personality, which is usually an entity which has automatically obtained all 5 layers or at least 4.
So with that intro., we see a certain ‘type’ of spirit, a man (or woman, I’ve met with these too) who is both kind to children, though would punch your teeth out if he thought you were unkind to your mother based on his sister’s opinion of your ‘demeanor’.
I have often found that these sorts of ‘meat and potato meetings’ are very honest, that these kinds of spirits have an uncanny connection to their King of Clubs, wherefore (unlike so much or normal talk) eye contact is a must, whether it is ‘real eye contact or not’, this is not the issue; it is the ‘instinctive truths’ that they are looking for.
Their particular/practical pain bodies have been through allot and having some of the most outwardly dense pain bodies on the planet, one must be able to consciously resonate with them, otherwise any being-love-collaboration will simply falter immediately before you even step out of the car.
If they know your coming up or down the driveway, it is customary that there is ‘a seer’ always stationed either on the porch, at the window or somewhere on the peripheral of your view, that signals a chain-communication to the others that your particular vibration ‘rings their bell.’
So there I was.
We talked a bit, related the various sizes of motor bike pistons compared to oil powered turbine pistons, etc. His mother walked in and said something, to which I could immediately discern that he tensed up entirely (internally), he then scratched his head several times and pulled his hand down his face, like pulling down an invisible visor.
Later, out in the front yard I tried a little experiment, very little… I said, ‘You get nervous around mother, yes?’ (stressing the word mother in a similar way people stress the word ‘god’ or ‘jesus’.
He looked at me in a very matter-of-fact way, suddenly all his ‘armor’ and tension dissolved, I could see him as an 8 year old little boy, disappointed a little that some expectation was not being met.
He said “Yeah, she does that to me.” I told him a story about my phobia of dogs after being bitten by one once, the idea that dogs can actually smell trouble brewing from a person’s body odor, etc. How often our fear of an animal will be met by a corresponding fear of the fear, thus a bite or growl, etc.
This metaphor of the dog, referring back to mother or father, related, for in all my years I have yet to find any of the 1st class spirits of this type who do not know everything concerning the intuitive knowledges surrounding cats and dogs, so, its a good metaphor to use, so long as there is enough space between the subject of mother and the dog, so not to mistakingly trigger a Freudian Slip, relating mom = dog: this is not the aim, unless they initiate the slip, then its a different ‘triad’ altogether.
I spoke with him about taking deep breaths when mother shows up on the scene, creating space, etc. I was not trying to teach this person anything: it was a very in the moment exercise and actually brought our boyish-nesses closer by keeping it simple, acknowledging that my relationship to his particular pain body (and presence) stood for freedom, not exaggeration and tension… to this day it survives as such.
I kept it very quick, talking while walking style, nothing serious, I simply wanted to see him, the real ‘him’… and there he was, a forty something eight year old, we, like two little boys walking around wondering out loud what to do with ‘mom’.
Well there you have it.
“Varying degrees of injury,
Victim view of the world,
Antidote becomes the flip side,
Developing a toughness,
Still not content,
Hurt leading to spiritual searching,
Same game,
Different currency…”
All the above quotes relate to something beyond the human automatic psyche to monitor, keep, let go, give and receive.
Spiritual searching is simply ’searching’, it is no different than searching for the ultimate off road four wheel drive.
Keep it simple, searching is searching, finding three dimensional affirmations, whether it be a group of people or a group of high tech wind mills atop ‘your property’, it is the same ego ownership or belonging to a cause, to a form that points to what is missing inside one’s own inner life condition and solution to yearning …”Beelzebub’s Tales To His Grandson” outlines this in a very precise way.
Spiritual searching does not lead to the same game, it simply is ‘you’ who lift the fifth veil, seeing that it is a circular stack of dominoes pointing back to domino #1, hence the instinctive denying force that your school has been looking at for a long time. In other words, spiritual searching is already the same game…Yet, it is significant to be at this point of ‘having been painted five times in one season’…for it is here that Ouspensky states that “a man #4 is someone who knows too much.” Yet this is no guarantee that this theoretical #4 will give up the 5th veil… Usually spiritual schools are reciprocal reunions of problem and resolution, till the struggle to succeed in failure and inconsistency becomes a religion of ‘Maybe next lifetime.’
“Different currency”… Well, yes, perhaps a better metaphor is in the works, though money is the automatic symbol of our sex energy…See Benjamin Franklin’s opinion of the concept of ‘credit’. Credit cards here and now equate to your school’s concept of next lifetime, limbo, etc. This of course, the sheer un-pragmatic promulgation into the automatic psyches of Men #4 goes against everything Gurdjieff was taught and was. The theory of lifetimes is a dangerous idea, leading mostly to educating the sloth within us as to ~ How to build a rocking chair, that when rocked, can both show you a direct view of heaven and hell within one half-rotation while not being thrown either on your face in the mud or falling backwards upon the hard surface of gold cobblestones.
Love to you all.
May 1, 2007 at 10:34 pm
About Half-Life’s writing:
“…but the obvious fact is that you have to become more often than not active in regards to your own immediate experience in order to bring more presence into your life”
This corresponds exactly what I have been trying to convey. And the “becoming active” may well be of a passive quality, a “letting go” or “relaxing of some tension” or other dissolving or waning of an active feature, etc.–some beginning of not-doing.
Thanks to All,
Siddiq
May 1, 2007 at 10:37 pm
I forgot to add that I therefore do not see it quite as Yesri Baba in that I do not believe the efforts to be present are always “mind activity (#126)”–
I believe it may have an initial mind activity impulse (a thought-”Be” or “be here now” or “be Present”–etc.) but need not stay there and in fact should not.
Siddiq
May 1, 2007 at 11:08 pm
“I See” (100):
“I would be interested in hearing from those with direct experience. Does being close to Robert give you more of a sense of you being in charge of your life, or less?
How does this all equate with the esoteric idea of ‘giving up ones will’ to the teacher.”
There are no answers to questions about “free will” because the question is a creation of what we used to call “formatory mind.” This has enabled philosophers to argue for millenia about whether it exists or not; the debate can never end, because the question is unanswerable. Does cause and effect “really” exist? Or do events simply follow one another? Do events “really” follow one another? Or does everything simply happen in the present, with the rest being an illusion? So it goes.
The “4th Way” has taken the clever approach of asserting that “free will” exists, but only for those who have “created” it. It also says that, in the interim, we have to give up what we don’t have to our teacher. These are all mind games–not inherently bad mind games, but mind games nonetheless.
In my experience, and the experiences conveyed to me by others, having a “close” relationship with Robert entails mind games within mind games, in which various weaknesses are brought into play. For some, it appeals primarily to vanity; the victim may imagine Robert is interested in something in particular about him–his being, his remarkable looks, his sexual prowess, whatever. For another, it’s primarily about fear; if he doesn’t comply, he’ll lose something of value–his ability to “evolve,” his green card, whatever. In the former case, the situation will result in a hugely inflated ego, and a sense of being in charge. In the other, abject humiliation results, and a sense of having no control. In those instances where the victim says “no, thanks,” he will feel that he’s “really” in control.
Either way, it’s all mind games.
May 1, 2007 at 11:34 pm
Half Life (115): “Functionally I know that if I do not bring a degree of attention to something it does not exist for me.”
If you really want to take the next step from the position you outline, have a look at what you mean by “I”:
“I know…” – who is this “I” that knows?
“If I do not bring a degree of attention…” – which “I” brings the attention?
If you really look at this long and hard I believe you’ll see that what’s actually happening doesn’t support the assumptions behind your observations, though they’re reasonable enough from a logical viewpoint and even from an experiential viewpoint if you choose to describe your experiences in that particular way.
“My coming here like this has already missed the point, how much more so, to go on and draw a circle!” Ch’en Ts’ao
RB
May 1, 2007 at 11:43 pm
Hi OP ,
You said: you make it sound so simple, like it’s….right here…could it really be that simple? ..and..is it real?
Yes, presence it is incredibly simple. So simple – it’s boring to the mind and commonly overlooked and instead made into something hard to attain. It seems elusive exactly because of it’s simplicity, not difficulty. Mind dismisses the obvious as something “too common”. For the mind it’s much more interesting to “lack something” or to have “a difficult problem”. Then mind is in business – to solve it, to find the answer. A false identity of a spiritual seeker/student gets invented and built in the mind, with a destination and purpose, efforts, practices and constant restless looking for something elusive. It’s excited to hear that “presence is difficult”, because it means more work for the mind, more searching, more info, more efforts and then more blame for failures.
Let me quote someone Russian I like to read very much: ” We always embark on a journey which have already ended a second before our departure”.
But our mind loves such journeys! So we embark, and embark, instead of just stopping right now and seeing that there is absolutely nowhere to go and nothing to find except what is already here – conscious awareness in the present moment.
All it takes is honest looking within. Bypassing the mind for a second.
Nothing is wrong with a mind itself, it’s simply wrong tool for the job, so to speak. Loud, overactive tool that takes up way too much space for a tool.
In seeing the simplicity of it, or realizing who you truly are – there is a big inner relief, no more search, no more seeker/student/teacher games. Just simple life continues, very satisfying, rewarding, not “tomorrow or yesterday”, simply now, as it is, effortlessly.
Is it real? To me it’s as real as it gets. Feels great too. I would love for others to discover it for themselves, to live life in peace with yourself and joyfully.
Isn’t it what we all really want?
Much love and support for all
May 1, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Half Life (115): “If this active awareness is done in a relaxed manner than it is indeed a sort of ‘effortless-effort’ and the internal impediments can be elegantly bypassed. Often I discuss with people who do not get the effortless-effort. Some of them do not get the effortless part, and some do not get the effort part.”
This is brilliantly put. I’ve had a number of those kind of discussions too. What you’re saying illustrates perfectly how the mind simply cannot grasp that effort is not necessary. It twists and turns and confuses with phrases like “effortless effort”. It so desperately wants to give the impression it understands! But it never will….
You’ll laugh when you see it!
RB
May 1, 2007 at 11:58 pm
To: I See Said the Blind Man (#100)
I think I answered some of your questions in part 7, #187. I hope that’s useful for you, and that others will pitch in.
To: Clara Helena Haven (#124)
Please get a lawyer to give you general advice before you make any threats to the FOF, however subtle or unsubtle. You need to protect yourself in the visible world as well as the invisible world. Do not make the mistake of thinking Abraham Goldman is the mild, gentle man he projects himself as to so many. When it comes to protecting the Fellowship, he is to Burton as Karl Rove is to Bush—utterly and completely ruthless, and completely without conscience. For him, ANY means justifies the end. He has huge resources behind him, and can easily tie you up in expensive litigation; you might ‘win’ in the end, but you may also be bankrupt. Remember, this country may have quite a different legal system to the one you are used to. For example, in most cases, parties to litigation usually pay their own fees. That means, even if you ‘win’, you are unlikely to get back the costs of defending yourself, at $200 or more an hour, court costs, deposition fees, and innumerable more expenses, not to mention your own time.
I’m not trying to frighten you. I’m not a lawyer, I’m advising you to talk to one before you go too far on your own. I personally know how Goldman works. For example, he sent an employee of the Church of Scientology, an ‘investigator’ called Ingram, to threaten me and my family with harm if I did not help the FOF by withdrawing my help for Troy Buzbee. The sleazy Ingram at that time was wanted in two states for his abusive investigations. Ingram also went to Troy Buzbee’s mother (who knew nothing of the case) and revealed what was going on—not to obtain information (she had none), but to use her horror and dismay as a weapon against Troy. That is the kind of person Abraham Goldman is, behind the soft smile and the ‘harmless’ act.
Another piece of ‘non-lawyerly’ advice: document everything, from now on. Make copies of everything you have that is pertinent to your aims, and put them in the hands of people you trust (and at least one copy abroad, beyond the jurisdiction of a United States court). Do not let Goldman defeat you with a ‘gag order’.
I wish you well.
Regards,
Ames Gilbert
May 2, 2007 at 12:17 am
“Measure for Measure” #105
Please count the cells and neurons of all organs of your body and brains (including the many ‘I’s) and then the mirror cells of your Pineal Gland.
Good Luck.
May 2, 2007 at 12:23 am
#124 Clara:
I’ve been thinking about the best venue for your idea for a more structured, centralized approach on the documentation/history of the fof. I think the most important issue is the control over publishing.
Readers
Authors
Editors
Publishers
There are frameworks available that allow “Access Control Levels” to be implimented within a collaborative structure.
There could also be a member aspect, where members must register before obtaining full reader (and author) access.
There could be various areas of content. Here’s a quick proposed structure.
1.Historical
Written
Visual
Timelines
Centres
2.Philosophies
Practiced
Professed
Artistic (Music, Arts, Literature, Crafts)
3.Legal
4.Economic
There may be some legal issues to clarify before publication to the world.
My preference is a flat a structure as possible, but as seen in the wikipedia, that has caused a battle of the editor/publishers.
Cost is pretty minimal maybe 10-15 month , for a hosting solution.
I would be willing to kick it off, and simply have a paypal donation button to defray the expense. ( as our trusty sheik has done).
I would welcome any emails from anyone interested in pursuing this.
opuig@bits.es
Again, as always, thank you all for sharing
this lively and thoughtful discourse is…
May 2, 2007 at 1:26 am
Dear Kiran,
I noticed some posts ago that you said that people reading this blog but not posting didn’t have the courage. It made me feel inadequate like the professionel anglegivers did.
I do appreciate you in introducing the subject of sex into the blog (the personal side).
It makes it more real.
Jusr I would like a realtalk about the role of the excersize of not smoking..
Just be careful not to cloud the blog with too many very personal issues, please genaralize…
Loretta, I love you always
May 2, 2007 at 1:45 am
Greetings.
I was in ‘the group’ late 70’s and early 80’s, lived at a center and then at Renaissance. I left for several reasons: there was a pervading sense of superiority, separateness, fear and desperation. There was just so much that was about escape and I began to get tired of the desperate desire to escape (the machine, the ‘I’s, ‘life’, and life….etc.) For all the talk of RB being conscious he was not very observant, was way into himself and lacked compassion. I did not want to become dependent on the emotional group thing and it just seemed so small and rather petty wrapped up in big talk.
I wasn’t aware of RB’s predatory behavior – just thought he was gay. Being a predator is different.
What I have found post-fof has been very wonderful. I am very involved in community (more fluid than a small rigid group) and have been able to continue my spiritual interests. My life has not been easy, but the struggle has been alive. I didn’t feel isolated till I moved to another state, but with effort, that has completely changed.
I’m a very private person and I’ve just not mentioned the fof much since then. I guess I’ve felt somewhat embarrassed because of the creepy, sleazy, deluded dark side of this school is very apparent to most everyone except current students. As great and godlike RB and his followers think the fof is – it has that great a shadow which, it seems, they are still unconscious of. For me the process of leaving the group was one of facing shadow material – mine and fof’s of which I partook. Facing shadow is painful – accepting responsibility is worse. I knew that if I stayed longer and bought in any deeper I would not be able to face it – disavowing and running from shadow is deeply ingrained fof behavior. Its interesting…such a tiny group with such delusions of grandeur and light and no recognition of shadow– but the perception of the group my most people (and some former students) is that it is all shadow. (a parallel is the rigid Mormon communities in Utah and their ‘lost boys’.)
The released thoughts of Mr. O (#7-352 ) have been my findings too. My heart and mind are much cleaner and richer cleared of the superiority, rigid rules, desire to escape. Being present is for no reason other than it is its own reward. It is not a bargaining chip, or points accrued for a more ’saved’ status.
I had a lot of good, simple fun in the group and loved California (I was rather young at the time too). I didn’t keep the rules very well and mostly flew beneath the radar – never wanting to become a power position parrot student. Met some very cool, odd, fascinating people some of whom have remained friends and I’ve watched them mature. I don’t miss my ‘in the group’ fof friends since they became extremely negative and dogmatic. Besides, my involvement was very long ago and I’ve made and rekindled some wonderful friendships. Generally, the experience honed my BS-o-meter which has been very useful. Fof is life in tiny miniature- fundamentalists, power plays, control, secrets, politics…politics. Nevertheless, I think we are connected somehow and I have really enjoyed hearing the voices here!
May 2, 2007 at 3:53 am
Thank you “Cake Please” for your post #67 on children. It is so good to hear we are being able to get this suffering out and will not buffer it any longer.
“You me as they”!, post 121. I beg to differ and think you misunderstood. I questioned Unoanimo for standing for individual transformation of suffering while I’m standing for social questioning of the suffering The Fellowship imposes. I questioned his using me next to Higher M to exemplify his idea because I did not enjoy feeling like a guinea pig specially in an article that does not reinforce what I am trying to work on. My misunderstanding and intolerance. Agreed. And I did not ask for silence, just to keep my name out of his posts.
Yours doesn’t need answering but I thought I’d tell you I’m listening. Thank you, anyway.
It’s true that I’m tired and this has been a great way to buffer the fact that my husband’s walked out because I declined to continue being a decoration in his life and school which is all that is expected of anyone in the Fellowship if one is not making money for Robert. No matter what, the blog has helped me tremendously to understand why I am doing this. I thank you all for bearing with me.
What is most clear is that I have been emotionally starved for years. The Fellowship pretends that we are being emotionally fed by looking at pretty gardens and dressing decently, having some exposure to cultural events and dining with each other but it is starving our essence and emotional energy by not allowing us to express ourselves. Not just by talking but by not being able to have any kind of initiative of our own that is not directly supporting Robert. Living one’s life is more than doing things for Robert even if he were a God and he’s not. God’s don’t need one to live their lives for them.
May 2, 2007 at 3:58 am
To Pinocchio (135)
Why would I count “the cells and neurons of all organs” etc.
Is there a method for doing this?
Is this weird suggestion an obscure insult spiced with sarcasm?
My original question has merit.
I’m guessing that you propose that within each individual, billions of microcosms exist on the cellular level. This is true.
That truth is not relevant to my question.
You wish me “good luck” in a damning and sarcastic manner.
It is imbued with a sense of superiority over the damned 6,592,209,033 human beings who suffer from a lack of a magnetic center or metal detector or whatever one chooses to call it.
Please clarify your response. Think of me as a potential student who has a few questions.
LL
May 2, 2007 at 4:45 am
Loretta, on smoking: I was around RB when that exercise was first instituted. While the reasons given could easily be justified in that rarefied atmosphere, I remember it also had to do with someone foolishly estimating approximately how much money was being spent collectively by students that smoked (RB used to have a few puffs). I’m sure the mathematics was faulty, but at the time the fellowship was experiencing “not enough money”. So with all the other reasons (going against the machine etc.) it seemed obvious that on one level RB thought it was cutting into his potential money flow. After all, he is practical when it comes to certain things.
May 2, 2007 at 6:02 am
In Reply to Post #123/8
Dear arthur:
It is no small coincidence that your post got lodged in between a Youtube link concerning the Painbody and Clara’s courtroom foreshadowing… Somewhere I sense that whatever within you asks for clarification and unconfusedness, its on its way… Be kind my friend, its a long train this blog-engine is pulling to a station nearing you, slow enough that we’re able to build the caboose as it goes.
Love to you all.
May 2, 2007 at 6:58 am
Sheik – I request that you remove or abbreviate our names (m**la m**er and fre**ric cho**el) in Kiran’s post 8/99.
While I heartily encourage the free exchange of opinion and discussion happening on this blog, it seems that using full names in any post brings up the issue of privacy invasion. What Kiran has posted could easily be taken out of context and misinterpreted. F and I have NOT had sexual relations with Kiran nor Cassandra. Some of those participating on this blog have professional lives where this type of public reference could do lasting damage.
Kiran – I did not post the “Harriet Baker” post nor any other post to you on this blog. I realize that someone directed quite a bit of negativity toward you, however, it seems inappropriate to just throw names out there without basis for accusation. Even though I have left FOF you should have our contact information. If you would like to discuss something with F or me, please do get in touch.
MM
May 2, 2007 at 7:14 am
I guess it is easy for me to think about lawsuits or class actions lawsuits around someone like Robert Burton.
The man has been so greedy and ruthless, he definitively exploited almost all the members who gave money and time and energy in many forms.
Many ex members here mentioned legal action is a futile route…. Majority will win!
I personally do not have money, or knowledge, or leadership abilities to even initiate such thing.
I would have to know in advance if such effort could be rewarded after all. Someone was joking sarcastically about paying me back with Chinese pottery or some other valuable objects from RB’s collection I suppose…. but realistically I do not think about getting my money back. It would be nice perhaps, but it would not happen.
It is also true that not everyone gets on their feet after leaving the Fof, it has been a few years now and I am still paying personally the consequences for having invested in the fof…
This is hard to forgive.
I am sure someone here could come out and tell me that I should not blame any external circumstances, that it was my choice, etc., I was fully adult and was not “forced” into anything with coercion.
Ok, Ok, I can take responsibility for my foolish choices and can even thank the fate that overall brought me here and also past the fof, after all I have learned a lesson , a huge one and am still learning!
But what I would really like is to make RB’s great lie widely PUBLIC, it has already harmed and continues to harm many people.
There are many nice fellows in the fof among the less so, but even these decent human beings how can they not know of the horrible stories behind the great façade of the teacher? This is what bugs me the most: people continue to fall and to follow a very sick man.
The price in the end is really too big, is a loss of soul for sure, not a gain, unless one eventually realizes the illusion and wakes up, claiming back what is personal and real.
May 2, 2007 at 7:23 am
Veronicapoe Says:
April 30th, 2007 at 2:40 am
Every time someone discusses the sequence, I picture the Macarena. Am I the only one?
Hello Veronica,
I am very curious about the “sequence”, could you please describe it to me?
I was in the fof years ago, and am intrigued by the new “tools” used by RB.
Thank you.
May 2, 2007 at 8:11 am
Dear Ames,
Thank you so very much for those thoughts. I don’t have the money to even start such a thing. It is fortunate that the blog appeared and pulled me out. You’ve done a great job guys! Thank you. I’m out and well!
Dear OP,
Sounds good, thank you and to the Sheik nevertheless for having offered. How do we start? Is it alright with some others? Would you eventually look at it and if it seems agreeable make some input of your own? Let time answer if you wish.
My email is ludoteka@world12.net
May 2, 2007 at 10:09 am
Clara,
I apologise for the insult but I was angered at the use of personal insults and the violence of your post.However I do acknowledge that it was a particularly pratful ploy for captain unanimo to use one of your postings as an example of his pain body theory.There are plenty of axamples we can draw from life without using each others postings to illustrate our points (a version of talking behind their back but so that they can hear).
Arthur,
This may be a forum for FOF related topics but if it was just that then I would wonder why I was not back in the fellowship. It served it’s purpose for me and so I’m mostly here to see what areas other ex-students have been drawn to and if any share some of the realizations that I’ve come to since leaving. Personally I welcome the diversity.
May 2, 2007 at 10:22 am
Dear “I am that” (post#137)
You requested “…please generalize…”
You see, I am tired of 20 years of “generalized” angles and the aura of “objectivity” they promote. Hiding the personal frustration even to the person who is giving the “angle”.
All this had a purpose and initially they were doing well, but after doing anything for too long it turns into its opposite and leads to those “professional angles” and “angle givers” that serve nobody.
The same is with any standard advice like “Isiswideshut” post #96 cautioning Clara and Loreta “that it’s a moon”. These are so deeply ingrained believes that they become “unquestionable” and thus a form of identification and a loss of realization that this is a part of the form we have learned and not objective reality.
In other traditions they would particularly “on a full moon” make a big “encounter” to release un-useful energy, just as they would particularly support “personal approaches” rather than the “it and we-angles” that we have come so much in love with. To our subjective ears like for Bruce #116 it sounds really “tacky” it creates again “I’s” and judgment which really reveals our subjective nature (at least to some).
Most have become so “impartial and objective” towards any statements because they just developed good buffers through years of meetings. I am sure that most who read this Blog have a buffer that expresses it something like that “Those people are so identified with their I’s, thanks god RB has saved us from this dead end road”.
I would have the greatest respect for all of them, if they have the same degree of separation if someone for example scratches their car or they get a parking ticket. But certainly this would create way more suffering and reaction than all the thoughts expressed here. Simply because they either buffer what is said here with the usual FOF feeling of “superiority” or because their car has become more valuable to them then issues related to the FOF.
Its really a strange “contradiction” that you have chosen the handle “I am that” but apparently the last thing you want is that I directly points out to some “What they are”, its just so much more comfortable and of course “objective” to “generalize”.
We love you too…. How strange to get this from a person who has to hide “generalize” behind a handle…. But we like “Contradictions” don’t we?… at least as long as we do not have to face them
kiran@beingpresent.net
From beautiful Oregon House
http://flickr.com/photos/iloveyou2/sets/72157600108525312/show
May 2, 2007 at 10:46 am
#127 unoanimo
This is difficult. Trying to communicate is just plain hard. I can relate a little to Arthur’s post #123 but my situation is somewhat different.
I was expelled from the fof in 1980 and it was one of the most painful experiences of my life (that it was much my own responsibilty and fault for giving myself too much to it does not change the pain it caused me).
Most of my evolution has occurred in the 27 years since through my own studies, meditation and just living. Most of my work has been in construction related fields and i can relate to your conversation with the biker.
The idea of “pain body” struck a chord with me when i read it in your post because it seems to be an expression of “something” i have had a sense of but have never been able to grab onto. My best discription might be that “worn out ball joint that keeps steering us into the same old ruts.” It became more fascinating as i began reading these posts and watching my “shadow” reactions to 4th way terminologies (which i surmise are inextricably connected to the before mentioned suffering.) This does not invalidate or validate those ideas.
I value the contributions of the “non-dual” contributers and those like yourself who give their opinions and relate their experiences from as fresh a point of view as they are able so i can look from a differnt angle at the observations i have of the landscape that i am.
Thank You.
May 2, 2007 at 11:04 am
Rabbi Burns et al ,
Recently I was suggested the excercise(seeking inspiration)of repeating to myself each morning the phrase ” I am connected” as if in a prayer when I woke, and in the evening “I am released”. When said slowly and with intent on every word I find a remarkable sense of energy flow throughn the body and a good level of presence afterward. The excercise was to be done also with the intent of recieving whatever experience was offered throughout the day ahead.This is a complete reversal of 4th way theory and yet there is an I there,the one that says “ah yes” to all that has been and will be.
Any thoughts on this in relation to your discussion on the I’s. (Ive tried this without the I am and its not the same experience).Sounds a bit fluffy but I find myself now supporting the “I am”in my experiences and celebrating my existence alot more since I left FoF and started exploring different avenues such as OBE’s and subconscious mind.
May 2, 2007 at 11:09 am
#129 Siddig
There is that communication thing again!
The effort to be present is always mind activity. Being present contains mind activity, efforted or not.
May 2, 2007 at 2:01 pm
Clara Helena Haven: Sure, I can easily start another discussion forum like this one where you and other people can focus on the document. As has been pointed out by others, it may be a better idea to use a different format, such as yahoo groups. If you choose to continue using this blog format, I will make a forum for you.
Either one of the choices will cost you nothing, except time.
May 2, 2007 at 3:53 pm
#8/70, Butterfly
“The second is that, has anyone else ever thought that the Galleria, from the outside, just looks like a Mc Donalds?”
Anonymous Says:
“I had not quite noticed the similarity. The amusement park for kids is missing. You are right to only point to the outside though, because most people would find the interior decor more attractive and the food more interesting.”
Thank you Anonymous and I would like to use this as an example of a deeper malaise within the fof. You are allowed to have your opinion on what you think attractive or not as does everyone but there are many areas in the fof which as Kiran mentions above are “unquestionable”.
The architecture of the Galleria is of the same style as a Mc Donalds and thats fine, if thats all we could do at the time in terms of budget, but don’t fool ourselves that its beautiful just because someone says so.
I personally find the interior fussy, ornate and camp, and as i often feel after a concert, when everyone is saying how beautiful it was, I wonder what is happening. Yes, we do have some gifted musicians, the lady flutist was one example but she just left the fof. We also have a lot of amateurs and those concerts are not always good.
There is a lot of peer pressure to toe the line though and for everyone to forget to mention all the bum notes.
The Russian students who, incidentally, have a higher understanding of music and other arts from their education, do recognise the workings of the old communist party in the style of our own ‘benevolent’ dictatorship.
A piece of plastic is of a low ‘alchemy’, no matter how much gold paint you add on top.
The Galleria is a meeting place for the fof, you do not, however, have to check your critical faculties at the door.
yours, butterfly
May 2, 2007 at 4:08 pm
Thank you OP for your offer for a place. I think I would like to go ahead with the Sheik’s offer, but thank you again.
To the Sheik: We’ve already heard the problems with yahoo groups so it doesn’t sound good. The image I have is that if we could have the whole document in one article and keep adding to the different areas as people write in, that might work. What seems to need some attention is that it doesn’t seem practical to have the whole document re-posted every time anyone writes a small thing. My picture is more like one writes one’s little thing and it then gets put into the complete document where it corresponds.
Any reader would have access to it as a document but only you or someone helping you could add to it so that it doesn’t get cramped with material that does not go to the point. Once we established the guidelines for posting on it, positive or questioning articles but real and not propaganda kind of stuff and with some conciseness and efficiency, then they could be added to the whole document.
I must ask you, what rights do you have over the material that the blog or such a document presents? I am asking because eventually we might wish to publish such a document and then the issue of money comes in. I do believe that any one who has invested what seems like much time into collecting material like Veronicapoe seems to have done and others, would need to be payed if such a document were ever to be published and people like her or myself or any one else for that matter, would need to know where you yourself would stand in this matter. Would we need to come to some agreement previously so that people have no fear in offering their work, knowing that if it ever makes any money they would get payed for it? Having done that for so long already it seems necessary to be more careful.
So many people here have such valuable material, I would personally be very happy to also see the “historical” document put together and published so that I could have a copy. They could both be worked on. After all, the decadence of the Fellowship that needs to be questioned is only one of its aspects which doesn’t take away any of its beauty.
May 2, 2007 at 4:23 pm
Deare Sheik
I support that if you could please take out the two names : m**la m**er and fre**ric cho**el in mmy post post 8/99
I guess I was right with one of my other two guesses as our “Former Miss America” nor Rowena Taylor have not offered to show their real face
Thank you also always allowing the link to my pictures and videos, they find great response with these starving FOF people, for example my Fiji video from two days ago was already downloaded more than 100 times since then
thank you for not getting tired of all this nonsense
kiran@beingpresent.net
May 2, 2007 at 4:52 pm
To Kiran:
I do not know you in person, unless you are the same person years ago who came from Germany and was going to India (Calcutta?) with your young wife (C?) to open a center there….(I thought “you” and her were quite solar…)
In any case I wanted to tell you I enjoy some of your slides shows…
As an ex fof, I have been forbidden to enter the property and do not come around OH much anymore.
I am delighted to see old faces I have forgotten, shadows of friends, another life time…
Could you please post more slides if you have them? even from the time you were still in the fof? I am a bit nostalgic of the past, although I would never bring back myself to become fof again!
Oh My God! Never!
Thanks.
May 2, 2007 at 6:34 pm
BBWolf (150): “Recently I was suggested the excercise(seeking inspiration) of repeating to myself each morning the phrase ‘I am connected’ as if in a prayer when I woke, and in the evening ‘I am released’. ”
It’s interesting to look at what becomes connected when we wake up in the morning. Isn’t it just the mind recommencing its activity after being switched off for a few hours? It may be that sleep is so refreshing precisely because the mind is disconnected and the real me/you can bathe in a more unified, less separated reality.
I would hesitate to celebrate the reappearance of the mind! Maybe just let it get on with its business during the day but retain an awareness that you are not that, you are the awareness in which it’s occurring?
“Body exposed in the golden wind” Yun Men
RB
May 2, 2007 at 7:05 pm
The newer branch of Science called behavioral evolutionism offers this explanation for promiscuity in humans: it is likely a character trait buried deep in our reptilian (instinctive) brains that all men and women, gay, straight or bisexual share with the animal kingdom for survival. The majorities of creatures, big and small are naturally promiscuous, seeking to spread their genes among as many others as possible within their species. This insures the survival of their particular genetic lineage. The alpha male establishes and vigorously defends a hierarchical social structure (pyramid) through intimidation and brute force when necessary, fending off other usurping males, sometimes even seriously injuring himself in the process. This sends the would-be suitors to the margins of the herd as the alpha male engages in unrestricted sex with as many females (partners) as possible within his harem. Thus the sex drive among earth dwellers is, at its core insatiable. Sound familiar?
This would characterize RB as having transformed (evolved?) into more of a “man-beast” (satyr, Minotaur) than an angel or goddess. (Yes, he personally said to me, “Don’t worry, you are with an angel right now”.) Could a satyr give you a higher state if you met one? You bet. Is that why RB was so inspired by the cave paintings of the couple engaged in “doggie-style” sex (probably an early sex manual)? Did he recognize something in himself and buffer it with school language? And the sexual preoccupation with peepee and poohpooh, sounds fairly regressed to me!
As to RB’s notoriety contributing to the descending octave of our beloved winery, I am reminded of this:
In my home about a month ago I was engaged in a heated discussion on my cell phone with our real estate agent about a business partner who was obstructing the sale of our mutually owned property which would have been in the best interest of all of us, including him. Our partner seemed to be, “shooting himself in the foot”, I said to the agent.
My 7 year old son was nearby looking at his book on snakes, and kept trying to interrupt me with a question. I told him to hold on a minute until I finish my phone call. He waited patiently. When I was done I came over to him and saw that the page was opened to some old engravings depicting a snake in hoop-like fashion wheeling down the street holding its tail in its mouth.
My son asked me, “Dad, why does the snake bite his own tail?”
I felt the shiver of synchronicity shoot through me. “I don’t know, son, why does the snake bite his own tail?”
“Because he doesn’t know himself!” he said.
I felt tears welling up in my eyes. Here was my 7 year old child displaying the wisdom of a sage.
RB, listen to your children, know thyself!
An ex-member of no consequence, 1979-1985.
May 2, 2007 at 7:51 pm
A reply to Post #147/8 ~
“However I do acknowledge that it was a particularly pratful ploy for captain unanimo to use one of your postings as an example of his pain body theory.There are plenty of axamples we can draw from life without using each others postings to illustrate our points (a version of talking behind their back but so that they can hear).”
Dear BBWolf:
I like this blog: I wake up in the mornings, take a shower, dress, go to work, make some coffee and take a peak at what responses I may have from my recent post: yes, I like sharing, receiving real ‘ahas’
from myself and others…This blog can change one’s being, if used unselfishly.
With that said, I believe it is no small detail to mention that all of the negative response to my Pain body posting was completely pain-body-interpretation, there was no literal intent whatsoever to hurt the feelings of anyone; although, like my great grandmother used to say “If your looking for trouble you’ll find it.”
After all, what a farce that would be, to be writing about the Pain body while being possessed by it and demonstrating the hypocrisy in script proof; no, my friend, this is not permitted me. Not that I’m special, its simply not possible to be that asleep these days.
One question for you ~
Could it have been out of love that I introduced to a person I know deeply, by using their pain body literature, myself and my desire to assist from a point of view of not personally relating by the means of ‘more of the same’, rather from the sense that I care more about Clara than the FoF?
In the one and only moment we can have choices, many of which loose our awareness as to where we began, what we aimed to do when we started and how it is that someone we loved throughout suddenly is walking away from something we said or did not.
This we cannot be responsible for, although the pain body ‘loves’ to imagine it otherwise. One never knows how the other is filtering what is being said or written: this can change between 5 – 10 times every ten minutes of a conversation, thus, up to 60 times an hour the person your speaking to can either have that many opposite I’s, contradictory ‘internal’ reactions, add-on-interruptions, facial ticks of displeasure or resentment that you said it before they did and so on…
This does not include the ‘Uh huhs, yeahs, I know, you know, really, anyways and of courses, i.e., the positive half of the automatic self’. Certainly I have experienced more than this from people who ‘were with me’, from Clara too.
For me it is my license as a deep friend of Clara, whether I have her pain body’s permission or not (if one was to wait for that, love would never get to knitting)to orchestrate my role in what I saw as an invitation for me (by the nature of her posts, not their content)however I sense is appropriate to my ‘gut feeling’.
Well that’s that. We must take bold chances with one another’s ‘difficult selves’, there is no polite way around this. There is a great difference between a love-surprise and a negative-surprise, at least within the inner nature of the surpriser, one never knows about the surprisee…Nonetheless, it will all come out in the wash when someday I’m having coffee with Clara, turn, rip open my blue collar shirt to reveal the word Unoanimo.
I have no doubt she’ll smile and know that it was all for love, never as her pain body ‘thought’ it.
By the way…The name I choose was an affirmation for all on this blog, not my alter ego, though there’s a ‘little worm’ in all of use that loves to ‘think’ otherwise. To love is not to think.
Love to you all.
May 2, 2007 at 8:10 pm
#140 Laughing love
I shouldn’t butt in but i will anyway.
The way i read it Golb was making a retarded, kind of New Model of The Universe, Theory of Celestial Influence corrolation between humanity-students in the fof and cell etc. in the body-pineal cells. Totally bogus, retarded, imagination, wiseacring, stupid not to be given one half a second thought nor responded to drivel.
May 2, 2007 at 8:24 pm
It’s so bloody funny! I see that we have been sent a mail reminding us about our ‘great’ leaders birthday
Non fellowship readers of this most excellent blog might like to know what it said! . . . . . . . . . . “On saturday May 12th we shall celebrate our teachers 68th birthday on this auspicious year of our first anniversary of the sequence- six – and the – eight – wordless breaths.
if you want to wish our teacher a happy birthday, you may send him a card with a personal note. if you wish to give robert a birthday gift, you may enclose a cheque, made out to Robert Burton
if you are mailing a card and gift send to : Robert Burton, Galleria, Post Office Box 100, Oregon House. CA 95962″
so bloody funny don’t you think? “YOU MAY ENCLOSE A CHEQUE”
I imagine, (tut tut, shouldn’t be in my imagination), i imagine that many will take this opportunity to send the man ‘approprate’greetings! Sadly i suppose he won’t open the mail himself.
May 2, 2007 at 8:36 pm
Kiran (no. 99):
Loved your movie on the phallus worship! LOL.
http://video.yahoo.com/video/play?vid=466125&fr=yvmtf
Is that a baked potato on the tray?
May 2, 2007 at 9:11 pm
Unoanimo #142: When you look down the railroad track and see a lone figure swinging a latern that will be me.
BBWolf #147: I understand and thank you.
Yesri Baba #149: G. Haven expelled me in 1979. I took it as a task and it was painful. What he asked me to do, I had no being in, and I had to begin like a homeless person.
I too connected with the biker story told by Unoanimo. Once in Louisana at a Denny’s kind of place a group of students were in a booth and next to us were some biker “types”. The student sitting next to me was in one of those affected self-remembering, divided atttention, in the present moment stances. To me he looked like he was day-dreaming. To the biker in the next booth the student was staring at him. The biker looks at me (the closest to him) and says, “you better tell your friend to quit staring at me”. I did, and I felt very uncomfortable until we left.
May 2, 2007 at 9:13 pm
Good Advice to Elena from Ames G.
Elena, you may well be risking everything you own. You may not care today, but this can change rapidly when you get sued.
The potential for lawsuits for defamation for both invasion of privacy and the careless and libelous comments you have made about Robert, Girard, and many others now, could undoubtedly lead to successful lawsuits against you by any of a number of people.
To top it off, you are getting ready to launch another project dedicated to repeating your “facts”–with your uncontrolled outbursts of emotion, it is simply a recipe for your personal disaster.
A word to the wise!
May 2, 2007 at 11:26 pm
alice in wonderlust #138,
The whole idea of facing the shadow, acknowledging one’s wholeness instead of always focusing on the “light side” is a very powerful one for me, and missing in the fof.
Ignoring the shadow can be seen as almost a direct cause of much of the “creepy, sleazy, deluded dark side of this school,” and explains in a way why this “is very apparent to most everyone except current students.”
It also brings up the attitude of the entire 4way to the unconscious, about which virtually nothing was known at the time Gurjdieff was teaching his “system.” It has seemed to me that this attitude is basically to ignore it since Gurdjieff (or Ouspensky, etc) didn’t mention it. We do this at our own peril.
Thanks for the post.
JoelF
May 3, 2007 at 12:04 am
The idea of communication is gnawing at me.
The simple example of the misunderstanding between Siddiq and myself over the “effort to be present” is one illustration.
We misunderstand each other on so many levels. We even develope an imaginary picture of the anonymous person we are writing to! And people we knew in the past come into our minds as they were and not necissarily as they are now.
Another example is Elena’s reaction to unanimo’s response to me. I see it as a nuetral example being used but i also can see how it could seem hurtful as i remember the days years ago and how i felt.
When we came to the system it was suggested we do not understand each other and that we need a specific language to come closer to certain psychological truths. But all language and terminology becomes hackneyed, static and down right meaningless leading one around and around in circles if it not examined and re-newed.
That is why dialogue such as this blog is so valuable. We can ask “is this what you meant?” or “write it again differently” but in the end words deceive as much as they reveal. We are “grown ups” now and we can discriminate and compare meanings and experience.
When i started the dialogue about “pain body” the postings and links were helpful. Unanimo’s story about the biker brought more specific focus on the idea and i was not offended by the slight chastisement (if there was any) of my generalized discription of the “painbody” idea. I have plenty of mud on my face and more than a couple of bumps on the back of my head.
Likewise when i “opened a can of worms” (not intended to have negative connotations) with the “non-dualists” the result was a better understanding of where they are coming from. Some of the videos i watched seemed kind of “airy-fairy” but watching John Sherman and what he said seemed like looking in a mirror.
It may be that some (Claude Larsen perhaps) go from the fog of delusion right to the clear blue day. To me, though, hazy days have a distinctive charm all their own.
May 3, 2007 at 12:48 am
I would like to thank all those former FOF students who have posted. It has certainly stirred up a lot of thoughts and feelings as well as memories of people I had forgotton about. Parts of what have been written cause me to question and reavaluate my own veiws. As someone wrote I do need to give myself a positive credit for having sought a spiritual path.Even if I erred and as Goeth wrote in the end of “Faust” I have never ceased trying. Perhaps I can take cridet for leaving when patterns began to emerge which challanged my conscience.
I knew Don Birrel, Carl Werner and Roger Cavannah and am saddened at their passing.
I wonder if the Bruce who has posted is the same person who was edited and setting the type for the Renaissence journel. Interesting to me is that while that activity was going on it never occured to me to mention to Robert or anyone that I knew how to set type. I had gone to a High school with older presses. We published a weekly paper.I learned to set type by hand as well as operate a platten press, offset press and lynotype.
During my second time at Renaissence I was staying in the smallest and oldest Airstream “Caravan”. My roommate was a very attractive young blond boy who seemed to be very eager to spend time at the Blake cottage. He would volunteer to help wash the cars when Robert and Peter returned from tripps. Personnaly the only extensive time I stayed in the Blake cottage was on those days when some of the staff had to stay on the property as guards while every one went to the big meeting. I remember Joel sitting in the “ejection seat ” as I thought of it at the lodge doing his RB act.
Sheila and Randolh in the kitchen. Thomas Easley had a workshop and was working on adding a section to an Oak table for the Meissan room.
One memory I have is that on one Monday I was “Guarding ” the Ranch and I was at the barn and had a part that needed welding. Naivly I though it would not be difficult to figure out. While I was doing so a “Life” person came to the barn in their old pick up truck. It was an older “lower alchemy” “life” person who was however an experienced welder with some 35 years experience. Although they moved stiffly without much elegance or grace they did quikly show me how to do what was needed.he point being that the characteristic arrogance I had about my being was shown to be shallow.
Someone mentioned Doris Elizebeth. I had forgotten her name. The first time I lived at the Ranch I slep in a sleeping bag in the lodge near where she slept on the couch.
One reason I take the time to write this is because it is another verification of the enneagram. How things are connected outside of time. What I have read here is reaching back and changing my memories and understanding of the past.
Scott Duncan
May 3, 2007 at 12:56 am
Dear Ladies & Gentleman,
it´s now two days ago that a very good friend of mine and also a former student of the FOF, found this blog and we are still amazed about the amount of articles written in the last month. So first of all a very big “Thank You”! for the founder & moderator of the blog. We all think that You must be the one who must be shaken to the bone of the huge tidal wave that You started without knowing it!
In Robert Burtons words “A joke of the gods” and we think if this blog is still going on, it might be the end of the FOF.
If I would be Robert Burton or the board I couldn’t sleep anymore, ´cause this blog extremely diminishes the amount of new students! Good work!
So first of all a brief summary of my FOF career: My name is Ludger Kreilos, I have been a member of the FOF for seven years, You see I completed my octave. I joined in Sept.1986 and left in Sept.1993,
maybe some remember me, I was part of the so called “Bochum Bunch”. At our peak we were 22 students all coming from Bochum, Germany.
I started in the Cologne Centre, my center directors were “Rolf Disselhoff & Cheryl Disselhoff !
The first two years in the FOF were the most outrageous years I´ve ever experienced, ´cause they gave me a lesson that I´ll never forget my whole life.
The ideas and thoughts of Gurdijeff & Ouspensky were part of my whole being as we mentioned in school language, and being born and raised as a cold war kid. I wouldn´t ever dreamt of becoming a “Hitlerjunge”.
My whole education and socialisation was totally directed to the opposite,
not to become a follower of a cult, strictly guided by very obscure rules!
But the ideas and stories of Gurdijeff & Ouspensky that I heard, read and experienced were so strong, that the FOF seemed to be the one and only “Emergency Exit” out of my unstructured life, even of the weird rules, I was ready and desperately seeking for the guy to come and take me by the hand!
Robert Burton!
A very good lesson to learn. To find my self totally under control of a weird, self mixed theory by ignoring my needs, believes and moral structures. What I learned of it?! That no one as clever or intellectually structured is free from getting trapped. Every party, group, cult or movement works with the same emotional idea:
”You can decide, whether You are one of us or one of them! The sleeping machines with no souls!” And I wanted to be part of the saviour side!
I was the ideal German follower, I would have sold everything or do anything for the school, but fortunately the teacher never asked me to, otherwise I would have gone to “Stalingrad” and fight for the FOF.
I’m still gratefully for experiencing me, myself & the many I´s that everything is possible. For everyone here there is the right cult there outside!
So nearly everyone of my friends joined in the recent years, and we became a more or less stabile group in the FOF, in the end we were the whole Berlin Centre around 20 members the rest located in Renaissance.
Only one was left on our mission to awakening: Andreas Jewers he seems to be still in the FOF! Hey, guy we often think of You !
Strangely enough I must admit that the seven years in the FOF were great, they made me to the man I am!
The FOF was a great opportunity to learn , it was a cultural mind blowing experience. It is still the foundation of my thinking and cultural expression and profession! Thanks for that!
But also I must admit , I had luck, fortunately I never lived in Renaissance except harvest holidays, I wasn´t alone in the FOF , I had my friends with me and we had our doubts and a lot of discussion too, believe it or not the FOF is still a topic of interest for us. Nearly everyone of my friends from Bochum who joined in the mid 80´s and left in the mid 90´s is now living here in Berlin again. Even me, recently moved again in the apartment that was once called the Berlin Centre, funny isn´t it!? Everyone survived the FOF with his or her personal scars, but to be honest if we would have the chance of informing us about the FOF on the internet in the 80´s, we wouldn’t join it! So this forum is a big help for esoterically seekers!
Don´t sell Your soul, to the FOF, ´cause You have One;
The FOF is a degenerated 4th- Way School.
And don´t be naïve, most of all the ex-students didn´t have such luck and stabile social contacts as we all have! Most of them struggle with severe psychic problems after leaving it! Have that in mind!!
So playing with fire is the right picture, some have and will be Burtoned!
I was never abused or raped by Robert Burton, and as far as I know, only one of my friends had to go this way. Sadly enough, but that seemed to be the price of being in the inner circle! Getting a high status in Renaissance, Apollo or now Isis, you have to pay that certain price. And than You will be used and thrown away if You aren´t of any interest of the “Teacher” anymore, as many others experienced before.
Of course we all know Troy Buzzbee and the hundreds before and his followers. This is and was sick, unfair and extremely cruel!
But excuse me Mister Burton, this is Your price; You have to pay; the long ever lasting minute in the moment of Your death when Your little soul is chopped into pieces and every second comes back to Your mind;
where You abused all the people who put their trust in You!
You sold Your soul!
Not the little sheep’s, who gave life time, spirit, money and nearly the best of what they had to serve You!
In the end You´ll recognise it and You even know it !
You can fool some people some time, but You cannot fool all the people all the time!
So You got the best men & women, it was all in Your hands.
You have chosen! You are on the dark side of the moon!
P.S.: Feel free to contact me ,if You wish.
lkreilos@aol.com
May 3, 2007 at 3:46 am
To unoanimo:
I’ve enjoyed your posts, particularly the one about the pain body (possibly similar to the idea of “time body”?)
Does your name mean “one soul”? Why masculine? (Just curious.)
Like you, I read the blog every morning while eating breakfast and in the evening after work. I find many of the ideas and stories interesting (mind activity, I know), and the emotional undercurrent is quite touching at times. Your comment that reading this blog can change one’s being was interesting. I think much of what has been collected here could be having that effect for many readers. So thank you again, Sheik, for having us.
Scott #167: “How things are connected outside of time. What I have read here is reaching back and changing my memories and understanding of the past.”
This reminded me that many years after leaving the FOF, I would occasionally have dreams in which I was “back in the school.” These dreams would always seem fraught with meaning, often unusually lucid. I’ve wondered about the significance of these dreams. I’m not sure if I think dreams are simply a form of uncontrolled mind activity, or if they can sometimes be vessels for communication from realms beyond our ordinary waking life, from the realm of “soul” if there is such a realm. I wondered about Kurt Vonnegut’s idea of the “karass.” I wondered about the idea of lineages: people who are connected outside of time by the wisdom teachings transmitted through them. I wondered why I would have these vivid dreams about the Fellowship, when the relationship had ended long ago and I had processed (so I thought) all the material connected to it. Maybe not. On the other hand, I never dream that I am back in high school, or college, or in my marriage. I dream that I am back in the Fellowship.
Another of those mysteries, I guess.
May 3, 2007 at 4:15 am
Sadly i suppose he won’t open the mail himself.
—-
You would be surprised.
Sure the checks get fished out, but he does read the letters as far as I can tell.
May 3, 2007 at 4:18 am
Dunne on Wine: Renaissance perseveres in the Yuba foothills
By Mike Dunne – Bee Food Editor
On a sunny slope about 2,300 feet up the Sierra foothills of Yuba County, Gideon Beinstock points out an array of Northern California landmarks.
There’s the Coast Range. That snowy crown is Mount Lassen. The smudge off to the left? Sacramento. From way up here, you even look down on the area’s most prominent geological feature, Sutter Buttes.
Vision never has been a problem at Renaissance Vineyard & Winery. Realization is another matter.
Since 1994, the hirsute and slight Beinstock has been Renaissance’s winemaker and CEO. But over the past few years, the winery’s future has become as murky as the outline of Sacramento on the horizon.
At Beinstock’s feet, stubby silver stumps of vines curve across the shoulder of the hill, barely visible in waves of tall spring grass. Like other vineyards that not long ago rolled across these knolls in a rhythmic pastiche evocative of Tuscany, this plot is being abandoned.
On a hill across the way, a tractor yanks out vines of another plot. On yet another hill stands Renaissance’s monolithic three-story winery; only the ground floor now is used to make wine. Here and there, olive, almond, cherry and citrus orchards have replaced stands of chardonnay and riesling. Rosebushes bloom where pinot noir once grew.
“This has been a traumatic experience,” Beinstock says while driving his truck up and down the estate’s steep and rocky roads. “But it was financial suicide, the way this was farmed before.”
For-profit without profit
In 1971, the guarded, philosophic, spiritually seeking Fellowship of Friends acquired 1,300 acres of these hard and brushy hills 20 miles northeast of Marysville and began to build a community of refinement and quest.
In 1974, the group hired German winemaker Karl Werner, who upon first visiting the site reputedly scooped up a handful of the property’s red soil, took a bite and pronounced it just the stuff to produce great wine.
Vineyard development commenced the next year, and over the ensuing decade, the energetic Fellowship converted 365 hardscrabble acres into vines, built the winery, and released wines that drew praise and a following for their structure, clarity and daring. At its peak, Renaissance was making 20,000 cases of wine a year, and principals talked of doubling output.
But today, only around 100 acres remain in vines, and annual production is down to 3,500 cases.
Renaissance — which since 1978 has been a for-profit, wholly owned subsidiary of the nonprofit Fellowship — just never made money, and this retrenchment is necessary to survive, indicates Beinstock.
He doesn’t know how much money has been invested and lost in the enterprise, and the Fellowship’s president, Linda Tulisso, says that information is confidential.
Other complications arose. Pesticides and herbicides hurt soil and vine, and yields fell; today, however, the vineyards are farmed organically. Lawsuits accusing the group’s founder and spiritual leader, Robert Burton, of sexual improprieties scared off distributors, says Beinstock; one suit was dismissed and two others were settled by the Fellowship’s insurance companies to save the costs of litigation, says Tulisso.
“The Fellowship itself never paid a penny in settlement,” notes Tulisso, who added that the suits were filed by former members who failed to produce evidence to support their accusations.
Stress, but not distressed
Aside from the cutback in vines, Renaissance today doesn’t look distressed. Palm trees line the estate’s looping lanes. Spring sunshine ricochets off golden statues of Apollo, Victory, Athena and other classical figures high on tall ribbed columns about the manicured grounds. Migrating geese pause at ponds. A large and handsome amphitheater is nearing completion (the Fellowship includes a ballet troupe, theater group, orchestra and choir). And the former book bindery has been converted into an idyllic concert hall and tasting room, open to the public from 11 a.m. to 3 p.m. Saturdays.
Despite setbacks and an uncertain future, Beinstock is upbeat about Renaissance’s prospects. He’s a winemaker, after all, someone who knows that grapes infected with mold and looking rotten still can yield marvelously golden and luscious wines.
May 3, 2007 at 4:20 am
Dunne on Wine: Renaissance perseveres in the Yuba foothills
By Mike Dunne – Bee Food Editor
Print | E-Mail | Comments (0)
This isn’t collapse, but conversion, he says, noting that after three decades of experimentation, Renaissance knows what grape varieties will grow best on what sites. Chardonnay and riesling have been replaced with such varieties as grenache and syrah, which he is confident will adapt better to the steep, rocky slopes and the area’s hot summer days. Grafting and replanting continue, and new vineyard techniques are being introduced.
Beinstock isn’t interested in making mainstream “international style” varietals, but wines that represent the North Yuba appellation that is home to Renaissance.
“I’m looking for a real stamp of the place,” Beinstock says.
What might that be? Through three decades and three winemakers, certain stylistic threads have been consistent in the wines, and he intends to continue to capitalize on them. Renaissance wines are solidly structured, opening slowly and gracefully, and are long-lived when they do. They tend to be more lean than lush. They have an equilibrium about them, and by today’s standards, they are downright old-fashioned when it comes to alcohol levels. The newly released Renaissance 1999 Sierra Foothills North Yuba Vin de Terroir Cabernet Sauvignon ($49) has just 12.7 percent alcohol, yet it is rich with the smell and flavor of cherries and eucalyptus, with firm minerality in its feel.
Cabernet sauvignon is Renaissance’s signature varietal, as also shown by the ripe, supple and layered Renaissance 2000 Sierra Foothills North Yuba Cabernet Sauvignon ($30), but Beinstock is no less confident in the future of wines based on varieties identified with France’s Rhone Valley — syrah, grenache, viognier and the like.
In his corner are the bright and juicy Renaissance 2006 Sierra Foothills North Yuba Viognier ($30), abundant with honeysuckle, apple and peach; the concentrated, spicy Renaissance 2003 Sierra Foothills North Yuba Vin de Terroir Syrah ($35); and the unusually accessible Renaissance 2000 Sierra Foothills North Yuba Vin de Terroir Granite Crown ($40), a refined blend of syrah, cabernet sauvignon and merlot.
Renaissance wines are hard to find in the Sacramento area — Beinstock says San Francisco is a more receptive market for the wines — but they can be ordered online.
Toast to the future
A decade from now, he sees Renaissance comfortably stabilized. Vineyardists will be overseeing about 50 acres, he expects. Yields will be at precisely calibrated levels to produce monumental wines. The migration of the best grapes to the best sites will be complete. And Renaissance wines most likely will be sold only in California, largely through specialty stores catering to a clientele that appreciates the distinctive style that North Yuba produces.
“We have a much better understanding of this place now,” says Beinstock. “We’re getting the best varieties onto the best sites so we can focus on quality. We’re going small scale and being very precise. We’re building for the future.”
He can see it all around.
End of Article in TODAY’s SACRAMENTO BEE!
May 3, 2007 at 4:42 am
To 164 A word to the wise.
I would love to be proved that what I believed in for seventeen years is actually true. Please prove it to me.
Any action you take against me will turn against you sevenfold.
You, the students in the inner circle who knew the facts have ommited to tell us the truth about Robert, Girard or the school and kept us inside with your silence. You have been taking my money for seventeen years making me believe that Robert was a conscious being. Prove to me that Robert is a conscious being because the more I look the more unconsciousness I find.
It will never be as easy for you to deceive anyone after me. The more noise you make, the more you’ll loose.
Don’t threaten me because you do not elicit fear but the conviction that I must continue.
Does it surprise you that I am emotionally disturbed after realizing that the school I believed in for seventeen years is nothing but a fraud? Money, money, money?
Please tell me, what are the spiritual practices of the Fellowship of friends that I joined for?
May 3, 2007 at 5:04 am
I just finished Claude Larson’s web site, No Not God, and found it hilarious, entertaining, and, I think it may have done it for me. I highly recommend it. I think that Claude, whom I fondly remember, may have been undone in the FOF, and unable to re-do himself, created this gem.
Brace yourself Betty Lou!
May 3, 2007 at 5:37 am
To A word for the wise 8/74
No need to introduce fear and intimidation here.
Ultimately the most of most wrong places for that.
Haven’t we had enough of it. No more, no more.
I agree the legal route is futile. This legal system will eat you up and spit you out, good, bad or indifferent. No rhyme or reason.
But really haven’t we passed the point of using words like defamation. Too many tears have been spilt here. Public record. No longer any doubt, any disputation. It is what it is.
Elena needs no help from me to express her views. And I don’t pretend to Know or understand her experience but I applaud the process she is revealing to us. It makes me think and yes it makes me feel. So much gratitude to her and others here for that.
to Whalerider
An ex-member of no consequence, 1979-1985.
The one who can hear the wisdom of the child is of much consequence.
Much love
Cake
A current member of no consequence
May 3, 2007 at 7:15 am
Scott Duncan, #167
“I remember Joel sitting in the “ejection seat” as I thought of it at the lodge doing his RB act.”
ROTFL
2 true
Hi, Scott.
JoelF
May 3, 2007 at 8:33 am
Joel (165)
Yes, very insightful. And this a problem in some of the interpretations of nonduality that I have seen expressed here as well. It is very tempting to say “I am not the mind, I am not the body, I am Awareness.” Usually words like these are used as a means of escape, a way to deny the dark side, preferring instead the sweetness and light of Consciousness, where none of these yucky human problems exist. But how “nondual” is it to say: “I am not A, I am B”? Wouldn’t the true nondual expression be: “I am both A and B”?
Fractionated thinking, whether in the form of focusing only on the dark side (I am nothing but a miserable sinner, I am just a sleeping machine) or only the light side (I am pure Consciousness) is a mistake, IMO. One has to accept the whole thing, no resistance whatsoever.
Jean Klein was one of the few nondualist teachers who understood this, IMO. He too taught that all is Consciousness, but he didn’t reject the expressions of Consciousness. I fear that this neo-Advaita bunch (Wheeler, Gill, Parsons, etc.) do not understand this, and that they are merely encouraging people to substitute one fantasy for another.
Jean’s books are starting to come back into print, BTW.
Mark H.
FOF member 1973-78
mkhovila@yahoo.com
May 3, 2007 at 9:57 am
Hello and I’m sending so much Love and thanks to everyone for all the effort and time expressed here on the blog. We are once-again sharing a life that we all searched for and chose…the promise of a noble and Higher life.
It is verifiable that we shared a lifestyle named “The Fellowship of Friends” with extraordinary Beings of depth and passion and for whom any price was not “too high” should the
“ticket” possibly offer the “Gifts” of knowing God (“the Gods”) arightly and Eternal Life.
Hello to JoelF…I hold in the most positive part of my memory bank your words in the preface of Self-Remembering “to become Real”…
Forgive me, in my need (for now) to remain anonymous.
And, you have become Real! Your writing here on the blog is very real, very approachable…
words of a true friend to all of us…chivalrous
even!
I am truly happy for you and Jill on the addition to your family of your son. As far as
your increased passion for cooking, the rumors of the Thanksgiving Feast you prepared in San Francisco made it all the way to the East coast!
The FOF circuit seems to be very strong…even after so many years!
And to BBWolf(150)…absolutely loved your post!
In the a.m., “I am connected” and just before sleeping, “I am released”.
For a.m. and p.m. my first and last words are a
new relationship to Self-remembering that works for me,
“There is no selfhood apart from God…it
absolutely is not possible.”
It feels wonderful to express our selves out here…fear is still very real to me, even so.
My vote is to truly express ourselves and be less fearful of expressing negative emotions…
the fear is ironically “not” positive.
Can we possibly not go for eachothers’ jugular
veins and the possible nickname “The Boxing match blog”???
In saying “good-night” i share with all Christ’s
words, “Bear ye, one another eachothers’ burdens.”
And, from St.John, “Now are WE the SONS of GOD”
So much Love… “Angel Aware”
May 3, 2007 at 1:26 pm
Thanks ClaudeLarsen for #89 link. It maybe somewhat opaque for the overactive mind but crystal clear for the lucky mindless. My mind was particularly blown away by The Open Secret if I got it. But maybe I didn’t. At any event, at last I know what cononenessnessness is.(or isn’t).
NoPerson #132, “to live life in peace with yourself & joyfully, isn’t it what we really want?” & “relax and simply enjoy life”.
Yes, I enjoy the pain (body or not), the darkest shadows, the agony and the ecstasy, the sadness within rapture, the suffering that pleases; this is so good it pains me. It’s so sad I burst in tears of joy. And this tearjerker thing is so bad it’s funny. It’s so hilarious I can’t stand it anymore.
How sweet is the sorrow!
#132, “just simple life continues, very satisfying, rewarding, not tommorrow or yesterday, simply now as it is, effortlessly”.
My landlord wants to evict me. My wife took the kids and moved to another state. I work 5 days 8 hrs aday & daily commute 3. Not much is left after rent, ‘donations’, alimony & dinners with Rb. During the week I can eat only gruel. Yesterday I lost a finger while peeling potatoes and I don’t have enough on my credit cards to have the sex change operation. But, I remember now it all takes place within cotton- candy consciousness and I swim in freakin’ joy.
Yesri Baba #166, ” That is why a dialogue such as this is so valuable. We can ask is this what you meant?”
Until now I didn’t see you as a ’solar’. Are you kidding me? It’s more like putting messages in a bottle and sending across the ocean.
“hazy days have a distinctive charm all on their own”
(Yesri Baba # 166).
May 3, 2007 at 1:46 pm
The criteria for a genuine spiritual teaching according to Selim Aissel:
(taken from the website http://www.epag.org)
flee those who demand unconditional obedience to themselves or to their representatives or assistants.
flee those who require you to cut yourself off from your family or social relationships.
flee those who prohibit you from seeing the people you want.
flee organisations that demand large sums of money.
flee organisations that display their luxury and wealth.
flee those who deprecate other ways.
flee those who acknowledge their own teaching alone as valid.
flee those who teach you to neglect your family, professional, or social life in order to benefit their organisation.
flee those who make a rule out of limiting sleep and restricting your diet, and teach you all kinds of methods that make you physically weaker.
flee those who judge and condemn.
flee those who require you to believe instead of to understand and verify.
flee those who require you to confess.
flee those who make you believe you are guilty.
flee those who lack a sense of humor.
flee those who employ threats or fear.
flee those who only talk about spirituality without really practicing it.
flee those who promise Heaven after death (especially if you pay them!).
flee those who promise Hell if you don’t convert.
flee those who divide principles and people into good and bad.
flee those who adopt stereotyped attitudes, ways of talking, sitting, dressing, and moving.
flee those who take themselves to be prophets or messiahs.
flee those who often change teachings and teachers.
flee those who envy each other.
flee those who compete with each other or with other organisations.
flee those who only practice within their organisation and not outside of it.
flee those who claim that they understand everything and have nothing left to learn.
May 3, 2007 at 3:11 pm
Kudger Kreilos #168: To quote Kudger in reference to some departing FOF students. “Most of them struggle with severe psychic problems”.
The first mind activity that came to me was a quote from Jesus the Christ, “Eli, Eli, lema sabachthani” which means “my God , my God why have you forsaken me”.
For what it’s worth. I did not know how to spell sabachthani. My moving center grabbed a bible and turn to the page whence the quote came.
May 3, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Eckhart Tolle Pain Body
Last fall I was staying with friends in Seattle while I was exploring Gurdjieff oriented groups. My friend asked if I would listen to the Eckhart Tolle recorded workshop and tell her what I thought. My first response was that I didn’t trust anyone who claimed spontaneous enlightenment (went down that road before) and who had a book on the bestseller list. My opinion has not changed much since reading his two books.
Eckhart Tolle, (born Ulrich Tolle)claims that at age 29 he experienced a spiritual transformation (enlightenment)that dissolved his old identity. He then spent the next several years without a job, with no relationships just living in the here and now, (was he independently wealthy, did he live on the street, or what?) Many people approached him and asked him how he came to be the way he was and he realized that he must become a spiritual teacher. So he continued his studies and spoke with a number of spiritual sources and developed his system for transformation.
So he magically awakened, put on a happy face and went around proclaiming “I’m here, it’s now, I’m free, I’m free (thank you Mark for that one). He writes a book, gives some talks and off we go, global spiritual
awakening.
There are a lot of good ideas in the books, he is very intelligent and articulate, he draws from many traditional sources and he is very entertaining in a humorous sort of way.
The problem is that he does not name his spiritual sources, does not give credit to the disciplines that he has borrowed from and creates the illusion that his system is the result of his awakening (divinely inspired?).
Since his system is relatively simplistic (anyone remember Baba Ram Das and Be Here Now?) it makes great spiritual pablum for the masses. Easy reading books, funny charming workshops, a formatory system that has mass appeal (it’s one of Oprah’s favorite reads) and what do you get? Lot’s of money coming in.
Then bright, well read, articulate people come along, (like unoanimo), marry up Eckhart Tolle’s spiritual brew with Gurdjieffian brew (or any other esoteric brew)and you come out with quite a tasty porridge.
If one system is good then two must be better so let’s mix them together and see what we get.
So the questions I have for Mr. Tolle, first of all why change your name, because you are a fan of Meister Eckhart and it sounds more spiritual teacher like? And secondly why not give credit to the sources you are using instead of implying they were thought up by you? One clearly plagerized exercise is the body sensation meditation that is used in many traditions, Zen, Yoga, Buddhist mindfulness training, Gurdjieff work groups, etc. It may be a great meditative technique but he didn’t invent it.
You know, after reading the hundreds of pages in this discussion, it is clear to me that there are many intelligent, articulate people posting here. Some who have had extraordinary spiritual-transformative experiences and who are able to write about them in a clear and cohesive manner, even more so than Eckhart Tolle, but that doesn’t mean they think they should go out put on white robes and sell their brand of spiritual wisdom (no offense meant to Kiran). No, what I find from the more insightful writers here is the willingness and ability to share freely the experiences and insights they have had over the past 10, 15, 20 or 30 years. And curiously enough, there is not much psycho-spiritual new age babble in most of it. And we are all the better for it.
May 3, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Cathie:
I too have had dreams, all take place at the property and all have recreated my imaginary movie of the ideal “School”.
Having spent most of my adult life participating in the fof, and only away for the last 7 years, it’s not too much of a surprise. I am grateful, that I retain my naive idealism. I think to a large extent, I can differentiate between those thoughts and the realization of having been used by the fof.
This distinction, certainly encourages thoughts to recreate what I believed I was participating in.
I would like to hear from others about their sense of the community that they felt they were participating in.
Peace
May 3, 2007 at 7:32 pm
part 7 #147
Mark says “embrace life fully,100%. Welcome what comes. Don’t escape, don’t refuse, don’t resist anything.”
This is what I think the 4th way has been pointing towards all along. Acceptance of things as they are, myself as I am. Thanks for sharing your thoughts Mark.
May 3, 2007 at 8:23 pm
Clara Elena Haven wrote to “A word to the wise.”
and wrote: “I would love to be proved that what I believed in for seventeen years is actually true. Please prove it to me.”
The reasons you joined should have been based on your realization you were asleep and that you need help to awaken. We are asked to verify, not just believe. No one can prove your beliefs valid or not valid and no one will be able to prove the Fellowship, Robert, Girard, true or false, concious or unconscious.
You are missing the point. There is no fraud based on your paying money for 17 years, just as you cannot go to the Catholic Church, ask for proof of the divinity of the holy spirit and get your donations back. It does not work like that. Remember Jesus was crucified in his time.
The warning to you was simply meant to be helpful to you personally, not to instill fear. In your current state, you are likely going to commit actions you will regret. You mention you are emotionally disturbed. I recommend you seek professional help. You appear unbalanced.
You are entitled to all your opinions and to share them wherever you wish, but you have not observed the line where you cross someone else’s rights (this my include the Fellowship) and where you may be personally responsible to someone for damaging things you say, if they are of a factual nature and can be proven false.
I will not spend more time trying to warn you, because as Benjamin Franklin wrote, a word to the wise is enough.
May 3, 2007 at 8:29 pm
“I’m not sure if I think dreams are simply a form of uncontrolled mind activity, or if they can sometimes be vessels for communication from realms beyond our ordinary waking life, from the realm of “soul” if there is such a realm. ”
—–
Interesting post. I ocassionally have vivid dreams about FOF as well. Just before I left the school I had a dream where I was on a large rock island in the middle of the ocean and there was a big house that mostly covered this island. The walls of the house were giant 20 foot high windows looking out onto the sea. I was in a large room that looked like the Ming House auditorium sans carpets and there was a bookshelf on the wall. Several people – students?- were in the room and I went over to the book shelf and picked up a large brown leather tome that caught my eye. It was entitled “New Testament” version by FOF. As soon as I read this Robert came into the room and gave me a disaproving and friendly series of looks that spoke volumes. He indicated (without words) that I should not open the book and that I would not never need it. I put the bible down and the dream ended.
That dream was the final event that cemented my leaving the FOF for good. Dreams are powerful and can have meaning.
May 3, 2007 at 8:43 pm
“One has to accept the whole thing, no resistance whatsoever.
I fear that this neo-Advaita bunch (Wheeler, Gill, Parsons, etc.) do not understand this, and that they are merely encouraging people to substitute one fantasy for another.”
I recently spent a weekend with friends and John Wheeler was one of the guests. When I read John’s books I couldn’t quite tell the exact nature of what he was trying to share. It sounded almost too stark.
In person, all doubts were erased. John Wheeler definitely accepts the “whole thing” and if you can hear him in person his being and emotional tone “fill in the blanks” left by trying to convey knowledge by writing alone.
John did not encourage me to accept any alternative view of reality. In fact he helped to demonstrate how much things are as they really are as opposed to the fantasy we accepted during our time in FOF.
I definitely would recommend meeting John in person. It clarified alot for me.
Don’t try to become a student of his however. You will be waisting your time and he will definitely shoo you away. As far as I can tell he is willing to share what he knows because he is a sincere guy and has fun meeting people who are earnestly trying to understand who they are. If you get too needy and try to get him to form a cult or be your leader, even the life of the party, he will kindly send you in another direction.
Moon Angel
May 3, 2007 at 9:37 pm
Rabbi Burns,
Thanks for your reply.I am would have given the same; but surely there is more to it than that. No more reading Walt for inspiration, or not until after breakfast or before 10 am.Doesn’t one’s intent have something to do with it?
May 3, 2007 at 9:45 pm
Beware of people willing to teach. That should be your first red flag.
May 3, 2007 at 9:59 pm
#164:
I would think the fof is on rather shaky legal ground here. If allegations are followed up and certain behaviors are proven then the status of fof as church would be seriously challenged. No one really (legally) cares if RB is conscious or believes himself so, it is his church that is in question. I don’t know the specifics of the laws that govern this area, but it IRS might be interested too. Even the Catholic church is not allowed all behaviors – witness the large retribution payments for priest sexual predators.
The characters in this wonderlust-land are fascinating….it seems the breath of a Dick Cheney or Darth Vader is moving in for an attack. I almost hear Vader’s voice in warning: “uncontrolled outbursts of emotion, it is simply a recipe for your personal disaster”
Hello? Are you for real? Maybe this is just a joke – I can’t tell.
May 3, 2007 at 10:23 pm
Arthur #163
Is that short for King Arthur? It must be. Your post gave rise to thoughts about the variance of being. It reminded me of that christian story “Footprints”(continue on when the gagging stops).
For those not familiar it is a srory of someone looking back at the past as if it was a walk on the beach. The person sees that there were always two sets of footprints except at the darkest and most difficult times. The person addresses the Lord: “You were with me all my life yet why did you abandon me when i was suffering the most?” The Lord replies: “My child that is when i carried you.”
Occasionally that story comes into my mind and i think, what a bunch of “jack of hearts” religious drivel. Sometimes it shakes me to the bottom of my soul(or should i say ‘pain-body’?)
From the “non-dual” perspective it was the Lord taking a walk on his beach and the person was hallucinating while dreaming when there appeared to be two sets of footprints.
May 3, 2007 at 10:38 pm
Thank you, Sheik, for your work to make this possible.
I would like to say a warm hello to those people of my generation who have submitted entries to this blog. More importantly, I would like to express my appreciation and affection to each of you, whom I hold in deep respect and care. In hearing your voices finally speaking here, it is clear that evolution continues, that being grows beautifully and truthfully beyond the FoF.
I joined the Fellowship in Hawaii in 1974 and stayed a member until 1990 when Robert released me. I was let go because of physical illness and the subsequent financial pressures, which made payments impossible. That was truly a bizarre experience – to be so easily “released” after many years of payment, financial and otherwise. But what a divine gift that release was! It was just what was needed.
It was particularly strange when, several days after officially leaving, I suddenly “came to” – like when you wake up suddenly and clearly in the morning. I could never have predicted such a thing would occur, and yet there I was with the stunning, vivid and undeniable experience of emerging from a hypnotic state.
No doubt, in that moment, real work began.
I had absolutely verified higher forces long before joining the FoF, and undeniably, that connection seriously intensified after leaving.
To those people who have left recently, I wish you all the best. I encourage each of you to realize that you are not powerless! You are not doomed. You will not pine away from loneliness and isolation in the outer circles of humanity. Despite what you’ve been told, you can find and claim what is rightfully yours as a being who has courage, values and worth. Claim it, and move forward in your lives! You are not dead. You are merging into a greater level of responsibility – a true “spiritual emergence.”
Though many who leave the FoF do so with relative ease, obviously this is not always the case. For those who have been seriously violated and suffered emotional/soul damage, find professional help now. Don’t wait! There are qualified healers out in the world who are well equipped to help you experience clarity and real healing. EMDR is an excellent method to deal with trauma.
To those on the fence, good luck. You are in a difficult and uncomfortable position … not one to linger in … although timing happens. Doors open, and we move compellingly through them.
Best wishes and Blessings to all!
May 3, 2007 at 10:50 pm
#179 sub way
Solar? Don’t you mean knucklehead?
May 3, 2007 at 10:51 pm
Hey, quoter of Selim Aissel, who the hell are you in the first place, and on why do you think you are qualified to tell me what to flee from and to what?
Give me a break, you stupid poster of nonsense!
Can’t anyone think for themself?
May 3, 2007 at 10:56 pm
To Benjamin F.(A word to the Wise) post 185#
In this blog we are physically invisible to each other and messages can be mis-interpreted, so last night when I wanted to reply to your first post to Elena (165), I was feeling repulsion by the sense of fear your words induced.
Then I stopped myself and thought perhaps you were trying to help her.
Today you say so and I do hope it is a sincere comment.
But I wonder if you could be more precise in what you are saying by finding the questionable examples of defamation etc., and be more accurate as to where Elena (or maybe anyone else for that matter) is taking a risk.
Many people said a bunch of scandolous things here, this makes me think we are all taking the same risk?
Yes, Elena is in a big emotional transition at this time, she needs all the help she can get: compassion, open friendly advise, support, not obscure warnings.
Leaving the FOF after 17 years of investement and possibly ending a marriage for good is a BIG deal.
It becomes more of a deal when you find out that you have been betrayed all along by your teacher you entrusted your life, money, energy…and by some of the students called “friends”.
I wonder who should be hurting here….
May 3, 2007 at 11:22 pm
Ok, now brace yourself Betty Lous.
Cross my heart and hope to die the following is the “honest to god” truth.
This morning while meditating the “footprints” post came into my head (#188).
I wrote and submitted it BEFORE i read last nights submission #181 from arthur.
(the sound of twilight zone music in the background)
May 3, 2007 at 11:32 pm
“One has to accept the whole thing, no resistance whatsoever. I fear that this neo-Advaita bunch (Wheeler, Gill, Parsons, etc.) do not understand this, and that they are merely encouraging people to substitute one fantasy for another.”
The “I fear” in this posting is significant. The mind/ego can reasonably be afraid of what these guys are saying because they’re saying the mind doesn’t exist. The mind would also like to believe that what they’re saying is fantasy.
What they’re doing is pointing to reality as clearly as they can. Unfortunately words are always open to misinterpretation. It’s good to actually go and spend some time with one of these guys if you have the chance.
“Hereafter that lad will go to the summit of a solitary peak, build himself a grass hut, and go on scolding the Buddhas and reviling the Patriarchs.” Kuei Shan
RB
May 3, 2007 at 11:51 pm
Replies to Post #163, #164, #166 and #169
To arthur #163 ~
Think of it as looking ‘up’ the track; that’s your truer picture, if your still doing the Work.
LOL…. Yes, the ‘good student syndrome’ staring at the Biker, who is an expert at looking for trouble, representing Trouble looking, trouble already found and looking for friends and last, but certainly not the least, in trouble, looking for a better trouble to get into in order to sooth the lower trouble vibrations of boredom he or she feels simply isn’t enough to fill the day’s quota.
One early morning when I was fifteen or sixteen, somehow my specific ‘magnetic center aura’ attracted the assistance of a certain someone, who seemed to fit the need, i.e., that my car was broke and wished fixing.
The ‘certain someone’ later in the day proceeded to reveal themselves to be a Hell’s Angel. Digging deeper, as I was wont to do, I was dually educated in how to attach explosives to a human being, place them in an abandoned rock quarry’s deep pool and thus ‘ignite the sunday morning newspaper’.
This and many other events added to my being-palette. With this kind of pain body (who has actualized the killing of another) one must somehow get them to inspect first yourself, not to inspect you inspecting them. Like talking to the left or right side of one’s body when in the midst of such a ‘pain body’, though never directly in front, i.e., face to face: its a very ‘in the moment’ kinda thing…
Its really an art to deal with pain bodies one on one, with the aim of transforming their ’story’, giving out a kind of love that they can use to sense their conscience, though not feel as though their being petted, like some guinea pig in the hands of righteousness.
This is not the silly-expensive American Jack of Hearts kind of affection, that does not stay with you when you leave the barber’s chair: this can be real intent, this is a kind of ‘doing’, (my opinion).
Somewhere, in the deep non-recreational recesses of the human psyche there lays the ‘Feline of Common Sense’, and as cats are, it is indifferent to a person’s personal lifestyle as it automatically happens without deep feeling and conscience-payment; being a more recreational thing, like a poodle jumping through various fiery hoops one day and kinda hum-drum hoops the next.
May the blessing of feeding that cat be upon the student who was pushing the elevator’s ‘B’ button with the mind-aim of going Up.
_________________________________________
To A Word To The Wise #164
I will keep this short and practical:
Please, read your Law Books people ~
Whenever we ‘think’ we’re ‘right’ and we actually ‘are not’, there is a little Law that is watching all this ‘Wiseacring’ and believe me, outside of the greatest American hobby, (second to family tree climbing) litigation, court room say-so,
all our self-prided-forces are either gaining layers of armor or loosing them; either way, the earth loves ‘weight’, you can figure the rest.
Read those Law books, A Word To The Wise.
First, all the ’stuff’ in this blog can not be considered Libel Defamation.
First, ‘Actual Malice’ has to be proved, to which there is none because the malice has been performed by the person being defamed.
The courts see two things when looking at Libel Defamation, a victim and a victor…In the case of the FoF and RB, there are two parties playing the part of Victor, both are slanderous, both are ‘right’ and ‘wrong’.
It will be up to the various willy-nilly procurements of conscience by the Court to figure out who is the Lesser Evil and who is the Greater, ‘takes one to know one’.
RB is (in legal terms) an ‘All-Purpose Public Figure’ and cannot sue, based on Libel Defamation, anyone and I do mean anyone, otherwise you FoF’ers would be billionaires by default.
A public figure suing for Libel Defamation must prove without a shadow of a doubt that actual malice is being performed by this blog, that is, a sort of malice based on false information, which, believe me, the Yuba County, Sacramento, California and Arkansas officials would be hard pressed under nightly hypnosis, smuggled in their donuts peyote buttons and large sums of conscience numbing free wine, to believe otherwise…So, well, that’s that.
Associatively, To Clara ~
Remember Clara, you must know at least equal or more than the court will afford your curiosity in all matters put before them, they have numerous ’senior moments’ (often prolonged into ’senior officials) often ‘buffered’ by various facial and body stance of stoicism. They can’t possibly contain the vast Goliath of Lawdom and tie their shoes too.
In other words, Actual Law knows more than the judges and lawyers: a judge is no one special, he or she is simply ‘an old lawyer talking to a new lawyer’, they need constant re-programming, like software.
The one constructive thing you have working alongside you guys outside the FoF moving towards a possible group action, is that you live in the most litigious state in the world, next to Israel, they love the courtroom arena; yet, well, where else could two Saturn nations re energize their pain body’s batteries so well? Killing a million birds with one stone is where things stand these days.
It is no secret that the whole American- national law world moves when California moves, its the locomotive, the pain bodies are the ‘coal’ and coal shovelers.
I figure you’ll spend 15 hours per year of the FoF’s lifespan up to this point in material-gathering-processing-time, thus about 540 hours.
Remember, never go into court thinking its a battle field: the TV does the viewers a disservice in this respect. By the way, there is no Judge in the whole of America that is condoned by the principles & standards of ‘true’ law practice to have a gavel, this is TV drama. So, think of it as a place to go ‘prior’ to battle…
You see what has happened to your president’s cowboy stance with Iraq? One make believe cowboy against a nation of real cowboys…Wow, what material for Dali we have.
Also, take this to mind, that in such a case there’s going to be a drag-net phenomenon, where lots of people, who are and are not in the FoF will be legally hauled into court, like it or not, to answer to certain ‘objective allegations’ on behalf of the FoF and the not so on behalf category; i.e., accountants, book keepers, tax preparers, giver’s of letters for visa’s, the people who use their personal credit cards to side step FoF direct purchases for RB, fellowship doctors, center directors, who ever is storing FoF assets, etc.
Its gonna get humid, so bring a fan and another fan to point the opposite way, so to keep various objects from getting stuck in the fan that’s cooling you off.
_________________________________
To Yesri Baba #166 ~
Don’t worry about communication, I love ya, with or without your formatory center.
See, we don’t have to understand each other to support one another’s ‘gut feelings’…
Like the Hell’s Angel, did I call the police? No, of course not: why call the police and then call the next practical social institution, the local Mortuary so to size up my coffin for sooner than later occupancy.
We are moving through this life, hopefully growing, attempting to be brand-new every day, not automatically crystallizing into experts at having been issue-victims, non-swan-black-ducklings.
Asleep or Awake, the one and only moment is happening, it is not yesterday, it is not the future; there are those who do not choose to ignore it, yet it is simply bypassed by them for some mysterious reason, resentment and hopes point to this fact.
Yet facts are transient things, we die, we live…facts can change after making the same mistake 100 times.
Their is no ‘real’ competition between the spiritual and the material and when this is artificially displayed as being the ‘drama’ at hand, you get such phenomenons as spiritual ego schools, an us and them, heaven and hell, paradise and the moon.
This is not to say that a ‘real school’ cannot be established, yet these days the world is too overpopulated and intellectually suspicious to have it in a formal way, so its an unintentional ’school’ one formed ‘out there’ so to speak, in the many who are working on themselves or working to not work on themselves…
Perhaps a real school will rise, though it will be from the point of view of many teachers consolidating as One School, not a one person guru, this ’style’ of spiritual triad is fading quickly, the spiritual ocean is getting far too big and thirsty for Marlboro men types.
_______________________________________
To Cathie, Post #169 ~
Hello. To your question about Pain body being the same or similar to Time Body…well, yes and no.
Yes, its relative, though only in the content of Time Body, not the phenomenon itself. Sorta like calling a fly without wings a ‘fly’ or the wings ‘a fly’, together they are something, a fly, apart they are nothing.
So, the pain body and the time body move as one ’system’, so to speak…Like your Fourth Way System, many theoretical ideas and verifiable truths within one Way, all is All, yet we sure can talk and talk about the other side of the price tag we cannot make out from being on the window shopper’s point of view-side.
Time body is not verifiable on earth or at least so long as one cannot access the fourth dimensional environment that the theory of time body seems to point to or somehow miraculously originate from.
For if there is such a ‘body’, then there was a ’seed’. For me, the ‘good stuff’ begins not necessarily in climbing around the branches, fruits, lightning strikes and abandoned bird nests, rather, to the originator-seed… Who planted you?
Pain Body is verifiable, right now. Time body is spiritual candy for Queen of Diamond types and the False-True Personality types… It is a worthless theory so far as one’s condition of being a soul-seed within a fleshy-pain-body garden on earth.
The verification of Pain Body can lead to liberation from 95% of the mechanical suffering on earth experienced by the spiritual ’seeker’, yet, this of course is (as Ouspensky said) a mathematical process , which then puts ‘within’ the spiritual seeker, a nearly unbearable sense of conscience,while, a sort of ‘construction’ begins, one based on intensional suffering.
Meyer Baba is a perfect example of someone who lived this construction: imagine one of these California gurus saying to Meyer Baba or Gurdjieff, “You don’t have to make an effort to be in the moment because your already here, you never left.”
LOL…
Yes, that’s ‘true’ and yet,
One day from far away I saw my teenage dream car, a Lamborghini, my heart rate increased, my saliva glands even went a little dry…As I got closer it dawned on me that it was a Kit Car, the body of a Lamborghini, though not its internal-presence.
So there you have it folks, there are plenty of people who will look at Boss Hog from the Dukes of Hazzard and Meyer Baba and say, ‘Whose Who, what’s the big deal,
why the call to differ?’ Yet, that’s not what our magnetic centers were attracting when we stepped out of the clockworks, i.e., comparison and competition, ignorance and indifference.
I recall feeling, being, never did my mind activity, which loved to skirt around the work and effort of expanding emotional understanding and being quiet when the mind was screaming to ’share its opinion’, play a major role in the formation of my ability to love and recognize that ‘certain something’ within a person that sees beyond the obvious, beyond its little self, which our magnetic centers mysteriously cannot be planted in and truly grow.
After all, there are plenty of professional fledglings who say ‘Why fly, when I can drive that Lamborghini way over there?’
Yep, you go right ahead, drive that 360,000 dollar spirit-mobile, which humbly contains an 800 dollar Volkswagen engine and hydro plains when large trucks pass it by going uphill.
_______________________________________
Love to you all.
May 3, 2007 at 11:53 pm
Angel Aware #178
Thanks for your kind thoughts. I do Thanksgiving every year.
Fellow Traveler #180
Very helpful, thanks.
Keith #182
Interesting take on Tolle, haven’t read his books, but a thoughtful post nonetheless. Thanks.
Cathie #169 & OP, Moon Angel, others
I had a dream a few weeks ago that I ran into Burton. Haven’t had a dream like that for some time (that I remember, anyway).
About a week later, while my wife and I were about to have breakfast at the Highlands Inn, it happened.
We had gone down there because the Inn offered us a fantastic $rate if we’d go to the timeshare presentation, and there were plenty of others doing the same. On the last morning we went to the patio restaurant (one of the best places to have breakfast in Carmel, by the way) and while waiting for a table noted that the guests seem to have changed. We wondered if they’d done a mailing to gays, since all the couples had been replaced by tables of young gay guys.
Oh, and there was one older, dissolute looking fellow who was obviously the person with the $$.
Didn’t think much of it until we were seated (since my wife chased off one of the fellows who was trying to get “our” table) right in their midst.
I’m busy reading the NYTimes and doing the crossword and Jill says to me, “that old guy looks like Robert!”
I glanced over, turned back to her and said, “That’s because it IS Robert!”
The scene instantly made sense, with all the “boys” sitting silently, we heard Burton ask one of the fellows sitting with him to ask the waiter “if this is real maple syrup.” I almost fell off my chair laughing!
I was pretty irritated because it looked like my breakfast would be ruined, so I turned my chair around so I wouldn’t have to look at him and went back to the crossword.
I have to say, after 14 years he looked rather more depraved and dissolute than I remembered. The fellows seemed interchangeable with any others over the years.
They eventually left (very quietly) and, except for some mild paranoia for the next hour, my day returned to normal.
It was 2 days later that we ran into an xfofer who gave me the link to this blog.
Go figure.
Dreams remain a mystery.
These events, and the blog, as others have noted, has compelled me to process the whole fof experience again and, although I didn’t seek it out, and might not have wanted to engage this way, has been very helpful for me in trying to resolve some of my continuing issues.
Thanks for reading.
And remember to be kind to yourself.
JoelF
May 4, 2007 at 1:10 am
Fellow Traveller (180), thanks for that one.
May 4, 2007 at 1:18 am
A friend on mine, and former FoF student, suggested a morning wake-up ‘I’ that I have found to be a good starter for my days: “Ahh (deep breath), Another Perfect Day”.
May 4, 2007 at 1:38 am
Carpe Unum!!
I see
I see myself
I see myself seeing
I see myself seeing myself
I see myself seeing myself seeing
I see myself seeing myself seething
I see myself seizing
Geez
Old Dog…
Homer: After Odysseus returned to Ithaca only his old dog Argos recognized him. (Argos was the first son of Zeus and a mortal woman)
May 4, 2007 at 1:41 am
Joel,
Not even to say Hello to your former teacher for all these years? paranoid? Looking depraved?
Wonder what you look like now, you old pathetic slimey fart! Keep falling off your chair, with your contented, overbearing, puny hairbrained nature of yours.
Yes, you know me, you weasel.
May 4, 2007 at 2:20 am
BBWolf (188): “but surely there is more to it than that. No more reading Walt for inspiration, or not until after breakfast or before 10 am. Doesn’t one’s intent have something to do with it?”
I’m not sure what you mean here. Could you explain further? Reading Walt for inspiration almost always works for me!
regards, Rabbi B
May 4, 2007 at 3:21 am
unoanimo (198):
When I read Elena’s first lengthy post ripping into you for one of your many pain-body posts, I thought “Whoa, dude, this woman’s got some real issues! She’s killing flies with a sledgehammer–and they’re not even real flies!” Having read your #198, I’m not so sure.
I don’t mean to suggest you shouldn’t post whatever you please, but perhaps you’ll at least consider first figuring out what you’re trying to say, and then saying it in a way designed to make it as easy as possible for a reader to understand you, instead of just talking to hear yourself talk. “There are plenty of people who will look at Boss Hog from the Dukes of Hazzard and Meyer Baba and say, ‘Whose Who, what’s the big deal, why the call to differ?’ Yet, that’s not what our magnetic centers were attracting when we stepped out of the clockworks, i.e., comparison and competition, ignorance and indifference.” I’m sure that makes perfect sense to you, but it sounds to me like you’re more interested in typing than in communicating–and I know, based on some of your posts, that you’re perfectly capable of speaking articulately when you feel like it. If you’re going to give legal advice, why not just say what you know, which should take about four sentences, then we, too, will have the opportunity to know what you know. I’ve got nothing against surrealistic poetry sprinkled with fanciful metaphors, but it isn’t that useful to someone thinking about bringing a lawsuit.
May 4, 2007 at 3:43 am
Joel, I’m enjoying your posts, and wish we had crossed paths in the fof. By the way, did you notice howard carter or “word to the wise” sitting with all of the gay guys in Carmel? Anyway, good grief, what were any of us thinking.
May 4, 2007 at 3:52 am
Updated Blog Guide for dummies
coot (ever the polite): could you please consider not throwing baby out with bath water?
Good FOF student: (aside, “I think our friend has lost The Way, better call Linda Twolips and get him thrown out”), “could you repeat the question?”
Fence sitters: I don’t see the fluid….I don’t see the fluid…I don’t see the fluid …
Just Leave: baby may be OK, but water smell funny – let’s get the hell outa here
4th Way Kaput: throw baby out with bath water – don’t use funny words anymore either
FOF leadership: Heil bath water, turn in friends, RB give HC task to start blog tag-team
Non-duality: no baby; no bathwater; effortless effort eff e zzzzzzzzzz
Eckhart Tolle: pain-baby just reflex – find path to real baby
Kiran: baby hot, bathwater hot; ever consider a three-way?
God Larson: “if anyone blows his brains out for the baby, that’s good too.”
Esoteric Shiek: gotta laugh; you baby-lovers not all that unique
Bruce: don’t give me any of that bathwater shit
cathie: catch you later at burning baby
Bonita: baby worked; bathwater couldn’t get it up
Clara d’arc: Follow me, storm the basin !
SandraC: embrace of the daimonic baby
JoelF: baby, schmabie; bike up to Tam and “S’cuse Me while I kiss the sky”
Girard One-Angle (new second one): sharper than serpent’s tooth to have a thankless wife
DOOFUS (Defenders Of One Faith Under Siege – FOF tag-team including hc, abe, Money Matters, just observing, and siddiq): nya nya nya nya nya – you got bathwater too (and here’s your restraining order, fool)
RB: The blog is a play of crime, dear. And my beloved former students, though of course they mean well, are criminals with exceptionally poor fate. One has to have good timing to be OUT OF TIME – and by the way dear, could you do that a little faster?
May 4, 2007 at 4:02 am
“Eckhart Tolle Pain”
His book should have been called: “The Power Of Now What” only he doesn’t know what.
Being present is not the goal, its the first step.
People want instant enlightment, without any effort or payment. Sure, OK, keep dreaming.
“I will not spend more time trying to warn you, because as Benjamin Franklin wrote, a word to the wise is enough.”
Hey, Benji, didn’t BF write a book about farting?
“…but he does read the letters as far as I can tell.”
Not so. There is a buffer zone that deals with this. Nothing gets through except the do-re-mi.
I definitely would recommend meeting John in person. It clarified alot for me.
“Don’t try to become a student of his however. You will be waisting your time and he will definitely shoo you away”
Vanity, vanity, all is vanity…
“I wrote and submitted it BEFORE i read last nights submission #181 from arthur.”
OK, so, what comes first, the book deal or the lecture tour…?
May 4, 2007 at 4:12 am
unoanimo #198: Wonderful post, you do a very good impression of G…still chewing on your offering but uppermost in my thoughts at the moment is Meher Baba’s profound teaching, “Don’t worry, be happy.”
SusanK #192: Very nice to see you here. Beautiful feelings, elegantly conveyed. Thank you.
Joel #199: Great story!
As for synchronicity:
While I was driving to work this morning the car ahead of me had a bumper sticker: “I’d rather be
here now.”
While I was driving home from work listening to the radio, the announcer played a song called “You Gotta Be Real” by 3rd Force.
Go figure.
May 4, 2007 at 4:31 am
A Reply to Bruce’s Post #189
Bruce Says:
May 3rd, 2007 at 9:45 pm
“Beware of people willing to teach. That should be your first red flag.”
_____________________________________
Hey Bruce,
Actually, like it or not, the obvious is always last and the subtle always first, so
It is, for those looking for Spiritual Teachers and Vocational Instructors in Scandinavian Wood Working Techniques ~
Beware of people who are willing not to be taught. This should be your first red flag.
May 4, 2007 at 5:37 am
To 185 or whoever insults Benjamin F. by pretending he is the one talking:
“The reasons you joined should have been based on your realization you were asleep and that you need help to awaken”.
How does the Fellowship help people awaken when it denies them the right to be themselves?
“We are asked to verify, not just believe”. What when one verifies that it is a fraud? That it offered a conscious Teacher and School and it is only interested in one’s money or efforts to make it look real?
“No one can prove your beliefs valid or not valid and no one will be able to prove the Fellowship, Robert, Girard, true or false, conscious or unconscious”.
No, they cannot prove they are conscious, because they are not. It is a lot easier to prove that they are not because they use people and discard them when they don’t need them any more.
“You are missing the point”
NO, you are missing the point.
There is no fraud based on your paying money for 17 years,……”
The fraud could not be more blatant. I payed for seventeen years for the opportunity to live a more conscious life in what you said was a conscious school and you deprived me of the right to participate. You never gave me a job, no matter how many times I asked for one, how many students had that play? You were not willing to help me no matter how long I volunteered. Tell me, why did you let me continue paying if you were not going to let me participate?
Did buying a house at Isis show that I was not committed enough? Opening a center in Bogota for four years, not enough? Paying thousands of dollars to go to events? Giving my most precious understandings? Supporting Girard? Supporting Robert? Tell me because I still don’t understand, what did you want from me to allow my integrity to be part of your school? Why did you reduce me to participating only with my payment ? Why did you never help me when I trusted you, the Fellowship? The Teacher?
“It does not work like that. Remember Jesus was crucified in his time”.
Why are you still crucifying people? Or is using one and discarding not a form of crucifixion?
“The warning to you was simply meant to be helpful to you personally, not to instill fear. In your current state, you are likely going to commit actions you will regret. You mention you are emotionally disturbed. I recommend you seek professional help. You appear unbalanced”.
This must be the funniest irony about the Fellowship. After indoctrinating students it tells them to seek professional help because it cannot help them any more.
“You are entitled to all your opinions and to share them wherever you wish, but you have not observed the line where you cross someone else’s rights (this my include the Fellowship) and where you may be personally responsible to someone for damaging things you say, if they are of a factual nature and can be proven false”
Not one word of what I’ve said can be proved false because I am not lying to anyone like you lied to me.
There’s no love in your school, you promote inhuman behavior teaching people to not care for each other, to abandon the children and the old, to not trust themselves, to idolize mentally ill people.
You tried to teach me to abandon my family so that you could collect all the money I have, you tried to teach me to feel insecure about my understandings telling me that being in a place of not knowing is the ideal, so that I would feel bad if I said I knew better. You tried to deprive me of the right to be individually and socially responsible by labelling me for being under feminine dominance when ever I tried to question your sick ways.
You hid the truth about the Fellowship so that you could keep me paying. You damaged and hurt my integrity so that you could continue to exist. You manipulated me so that I believed that everything questionable about the Fellowship could not be questioned because Robert was a man number seven. A Jesus. You must have indeed damaged me sufficiently to make me believe such things. And the sad thing is that I was innocent enough to trust you. I wanted to love and be loved and it is not I who am wrong, it is you who are sick. Thieves, frauds. Blood suckers. Prove me wrong and you’ll do me a great favor because the truth is hurting so badly.
“I will not spend more time trying to warn you, because as Benjamin Franklin wrote, a word to the wise is enough”. Yes, go convince more people that you’re such a conscious school but practice a little so that you sound more convincing.
May 4, 2007 at 6:25 am
Of course if you were following Advaita lines of thought a great wake-up mantra would be
“nothing to see here – move along”
May 4, 2007 at 9:03 am
How about dreams during fof times?
This mirror like dream may be obscene or not so pleasant for some of you, please forgive me it is not my fault.
After this dream telling I am not going to tell you for sure who I am.
I was living at a FOF center as a young one year old student more or less.
I had already met RB like 8-9 months before, I knew how he looked like, I knew he was gay and that was ok with me, (did not know of his personal habits..),
I had already created a big aura about him which of course was totally supported by the center directors and older students.
RB was then visiting our city! Oh my…we were scrubbing the floors, shining the glass, we were even hoping he would come to dinner the next day, but for sure he was coming for a reception…
I felt like a Cinderella I suppose and the night before the big day I went to bed as usual…
and here is what I dreamt:
RB is sitting on a elegant little chair, European style, without much of a back support. He is alone in this huge beautiful sparkling clean living room at the teaching house, he is waiting for me.
I walk towards him and all of a sudden I find myself hugged and sitting on his lap!
He then resolutely places his mouth against mine and starts kissing me(french style)…
Then he says to me: Do you know who I am ? do you remember me from BEFORE? Do you?
That’s it! the dream I mean. Was this strange or what? In the dream I felt I had already met him, perhaps in another life time or through another human.
I had a feeling of slight incest, he was not like a boyfriend to me, he was more like a father actually, but at the same time there was this incredible sexual charge.
By the way, I take responsability for my dream!
May 4, 2007 at 10:44 am
There are a few Blogs on the FOF and RB in the net.
None of them has taken off like this on. But the others have interesting information too.
****************************************
Dave Archer who was with Alex Horn in 1966 has something to say about Alex Horn
Maybe he met RB and can tell his version of the story.
The Gurdjieff Work, also known as “Fourth Way Schools,” upholds teachers with direct lines leading back to Gurdjieff and Ouspensky, among others. Teachers who are “officially” acknowledged to have studied the “real Work” with the “right people”. In published statements the “Fourth Way” disavows Alex Horn as a legitimately connected teacher.
Yo, my Gurdjieff teacher wasn’t a real Gurdjieff teacher.
http://www.davearcher.com/alex.html
http://www.davearcher.com/magus.html
****************************************
fellowship of friends and palm trees
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=430
****************************************
Looking for other kids affected by the Fellowship of Friends
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=1440
****************************************
Looking for exmembers of the Fellowship of Friends
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=1488
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=429
****************************************
More on Alex Horn
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=1445
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=653
****************************************
On the FOF
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=666
****************************************
Victims to Robert Burton or Alex Horn
http://forum.rickross.com/viewtopic.php?t=612
****************************************
May 4, 2007 at 12:33 pm
So, ExLax 101, has Joel revealed his “homophobia” by imagining that the overdressed, manicured pretty boys that he noted hovering around Robert like flies (rather glum flies, no doubt) were gay?
May 4, 2007 at 1:02 pm
Clara Helena Haven: I have started a new forum for you here. Feel free to use it as you wish.
I don’t have the time to re-post the document every time that it gets modified, neither am I going to allow anyone else to moderate here on animam recro. So, you will need to figure out for yourself how you want the project to go. I warned you beforehand that a blog may not be the best place to start such a project. Maybe if you post the document first and then people post the sections that they have filled in, it won’t be such a big mess.
As to the costs, there are none. As to publishing it, I don’t think that it will happen, and if it does it will probably be to you to decide how to go forward. Don’t forget that anyone has access to any information posted on the blog and that there are no copyrights.
Shecrolck Holmes (214): Thanks for the links.
May 4, 2007 at 1:15 pm
JoelF #199, I hope you do not mean to say there might be something supernatural in running into Robert Burton & harem- entourage at a fancy restaurant in Carmel. Running into them at food4less or at Denny’s, now that would be unnatural (& maybe supernatural).
Nor is there anything unusual about dreams with RB in them. There are many here who devour such things being superstitious or having the need to project, particularly on him.
To many of us his image became one of our Archetypal Images. Thoses are images used in dreams to compose the dream stories that symbolically look into the strategies of dealing with problems, attitudes & behaviours in our daily life. In the arsenal of these Archetypal images are Cinderella, cats, the Madonna, Christ, and for many of us, willy nilly, Robert E Burton. He may be subconsciously used as what Jung calls ‘Mana’ personality; a symbol of extraordinary power and wisdom. The problem is that we are not that good at not projecting this power in our waking life onto someone else. A dream with RB may show (to the one who can pay attention) to what degree we are free or use him to disown our own wisdom, power & independence by giving him power over us (or to someone else), even after leaving the school.
MoonAngel #186, despite symbolically rejecting the FOF ‘bible to live by’, your very rejection depended on Robert’s ‘disapproving and friendly looks’. You may have left the school but I don’t know if you completely outgrown the need for such a dependency. But I’m not a proffessional.
#187; How did Wheeler in person ‘fill in the blanks’ for you?
May 4, 2007 at 1:42 pm
“Shecrolck Holmes (214): Thanks for the links.”
The snake-blog is beginning to bite its own tail!
Guessing why?
Children Know.
May 4, 2007 at 2:43 pm
Unoanimo, I enjoyed post #198. I live near a drug house that inpressed me as a half-way home for the state prison system.
They do a lot of garage sales which lures me in. I am almost certain they have ‘eye-balled’ me to their satisfaction.
One member has already gone back to prison. While he seldom came to the garage sales, I wouldnt go while he was there. A tear drop tattoo at the corner of one eye and a vest that had sargent of arms on the back.
One time there was a confrontation between a woman and a man ( power-struggle). The woman called for help. The offender came to my house to rest a bit then left. No sooner had he left walking he comes the woman and her help. One big man, wearing a long pony-tail carrying a foot long flashlight that look heavy.
His advise to me, “don’t risk your life by helping him out”. I’m safe because him is now in prison.
You’re absolutely right about them looking for trouble. Over the years lots of blood has been shed over there and lots of trips by the cops.
May 4, 2007 at 3:43 pm
#180, Fellow Traveler wrote:
“flee those who demand unconditional obedience to themselves or to their representatives or assistants.”
Etc.
Now you tell me.
May 4, 2007 at 5:04 pm
Hi all,
Wow, it’s gotten grittier and more contentious in here since the last time I dropped by. Seems like the idealogical lines are more fiercely defended than before. I have to laugh when folks quote Gurdjieff as if he were the definitive authority on all matters spiritual. Some part of everyone still wants to believe that someone else has the answers. He understood that as deeply as L. Ron Hubbard. That may be the greatest hook that G. came up with: “A man who has escaped”, “A man who knows the way out.”
And the little voice says:
“Boy, I got to find one of those or I’ll spend my life breathing, eating, working, living and dying, just like all these other mugs; now that would be criminal!”
No problem, however. I just drop by every once in a while to see the sound of my own voice, pop out something that amounts to a non sequitur and move on. Mostly I look for interesting personal stories that reflect people’s ways of living their post-fof life, rather than the tortured prose that I still associate with meeting angles. Could it be that we live our lives and then choose the philosophy/system/religion that best fits it?
So, here’s today’s question: Has anyone else who’s gone down the therapy road since leaving had trouble explicating the whole of your fof beliefs to your therapist? I could not lay the whole thing out there all at once.
“Well, you see Doc, I used to have 44 angels looking after my spiritual evolution, all of them famous, every single one… What?..oh..Abraham Lincoln, Benjamin Franklin, J.S. Bach, Vivaldi…No, no Thomas Jefferson.”
It took me the better part of five years to admit out loud what I’d believed or been asked to consider believing as a member of the fof. That’s quite a lot of shame to work through.
As Brian Wilson says: Love and Mercy to you and your friends tonight.
May 4, 2007 at 5:11 pm
#210….Both are true.
May 4, 2007 at 6:00 pm
Kid Shelleen (221): Great post, I wholeheartedly agree that we all have this desire and need to believe that the answers to our questions exist. Because if there were none and we found out, we would have spent our lives searching for a dream.
Last time I contributed I tried to put forward my ideas on why so many of us are capable of believing the strangest things. I do not think that we choose the belief system that best fits us, on the other hand I believe that we are capable of choosing and defending any belief system, however ridiculous it may be.
Believing that there is this all-powerful, all-knowing being above us, watching us play (on the word of a book), is as ridiculous as it is to believe that 44 angels guide us in our life. Equally so, believing that there was this guy 2,000 years ago (on the word of a priest) who came back to life after he was killed, is as ridiculous as it is to believe that the only conscious being on the planet is Robert Burton.
If a ridiculous belief gets repeated a certain amount of times and if enough people believe in it, it stops being ridiculous. It may even appear to be true.
If, for whatever reason, we adopt a belief (whether true or false), we are capable of explaining reality to fit that said belief. Rather than viewing reality without judgement, we view it to fit what we already believe.
Robert Anton Wilson, and to a lesser extent Aleister Crowley, wrote extensively on the subject. One of the experiments they recommended was to passionately adopt one strong belief (or set of beliefs) and as soon as it sets in and becomes natural, drop it, and adopt another one. Crowley recommended worshipping a random deity (yes, that would include the Christian God) and once it manifested in whatever form, dropping it and worshipping another.
Both experiments show how easy it is to believe any old nonsense.
May 4, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Thank you Sheik,
I will try to give it more structure and start working on it.
May 4, 2007 at 8:13 pm
Hi
I have started a discussion group on Google (SchoolBreak).
It is not intended to cover the areas published on this Blog – it is to investigate ways forward in inner, both in and out of the FoF.
It’s private (viewable by members only and not exposed thru web searches).
By invitation only (by me or other members).
You can post anonymously or under your own name.
The member list is not viewable except by me, the moderator, and I will respect your privacy.
It’s free.
It is a threaded discussion list with daily digests and all mod cons.
If you are interested then drop me line (I’m exFoF) at:
vale.m.smith@googlemail.com
and I’ll send you an invite.
Here is a snippet of the first topic (Is Advaita the 5th Way?):
“…Adyashanti, Wheeler, Parsons, Sailor Bob, Klein, and some older names
like Ramana and Nisargadatta, these are now as familiar in FoF and
exFoF (especially ex) circles now as Rumi, Whitman, Shakespeare and
Rilke were, back in the day.
The big difference being is…”
Sheik – thanks for letting me post this message in your space.
See you there,
ManFromMars
May 4, 2007 at 8:18 pm
Hello Everyone,
I’ve been reading for a few days and enjoying seeing familiar “faces” turning up from time-to-time. I joined FoF in Hawaii in 1976 and left from Palo Alto in 1984.
My departure had more to do with the overall direction the group was going than with RB-related matters because I didn’t learn about those matters until after I was out. I was struggling with doubts, then met someone who brought me out of that hypnotic state.
Hi SusanK!! You said:
“It was particularly strange when, several days after officially leaving, I suddenly “came to” – like when you wake up suddenly and clearly in the morning. I could never have predicted such a thing would occur, and yet there I was with the stunning, vivid and undeniable experience of emerging from a hypnotic state.
No doubt, in that moment, real work began.”
This is exactly what happened for me except that it occurred about a week before I left. Things had been building (disintegrating?) for a while, then I spent time with someone who succeeded in popping the hypnotic bubble in a single, clarifying moment. Sam, if you are reading this, it was Steve G. It was an amazing experience!
My leaving was made easier by having already established some outside-FoF friendships. Those people eased the transition considerably.
To those still in the throes of decision – there is a great big, beautiful world out here full of spiritual promise and possibility. There is nothing to fear, and the Divine is much too vast and generous to confine itself to 2000 people.
Arisha
May 4, 2007 at 9:02 pm
To Sheik on Robert Anton Wilson suggestion:
“to passionately adopt one strong belief (or set of beliefs) and as soon as it sets in and becomes natural, drop it, and adopt another one.”
This is were Robert Burton wins!
He keeps changing and his focuus to the “new” is so uncompromised that he appears “at ease” when dropping the “old”.
Is the “old” made of people, ideas, themes, omens, objects ?
Yes, it is all and everything.
Why do you think many FOF are experiencing confusion and doubts ?
In that sense, this man is bloody creative and dearing!
Facts:
There is nothing left or almost nothing of the 44 angels…
The word “Self-Remebering”, a key word in the 4th Way tradition,
and title of Robert Burton’s book,
is kept for the gallery of new visitors of the site and or prospective student meetings,
but to be replaced, as soon as possible, by “Be” (belonging to the Sequence).
The tools of the 30 work I’s
- monosyllabes enabling the students to identify better the central point of their work/presence in a moment like,
“smell”, “taste”, “look”, “kneel”, “drop” and so on,
even excluded the word “Gods” for a while!
Everything can go and do go
while Robert Burton and the FOF stay…
Sheik, I am trying to understand your proposal though and the only way one can/could benefit from making the experiment would be to trade Robert Burton and the FOF passionate adoption for another.
Did I get your point ?
To Clara Helena:
What about a brand new website instead of a hanging on a branch in this Blog?
To Unoanimo: yes a bit lyrical and very good. Take care not to caress yourself too much with words, you seem too gifted for that!
Rita:
Where are you ?
Please, come back as soon as possible!
Much Love.
May 4, 2007 at 9:15 pm
Hello, everyone, warm greetings to you!
Joel F., this missive contains nothing but Fourth Way jargon, so you might want to skip it! For myself, “I take the honey and throw away the sting…”
Bonita’s reminder (#7-194) of Burton’s ‘crystallization’ and celebrations by the body of the FOF in subsequent years made me go back to my notes on the subject made in the couple of years leading up to my ‘release’. I, and my good friend at the time, former member Alan C. (upon whom be many blessings, wherever and whenever he is) worked many an evening on this subject together. Here are some thoughts on crystallization and what this means for the two ‘conscious’ people in the FOF. This invitation to a conversation is laid out in terms of the Fourth Way.
By the way of prelude, it’s more than ironic that the founder of a “Gurdjieff–Ouspensky” school is rather proud of having never read anything written by Gurdjieff (Burton himself boasted of this to me and others), because the old man had quite a bit to teach about the process of becoming conscious and its ramifications. It’s true that this valuable information is rather difficult to get at, but I’d have thought that someone with a magnetic center (a strong ‘seeker’) centered in the king of hearts, with the usual close connection to the king of diamonds (but not in this case—just read ‘Self-Remembering’ to see what I mean), would have regarded the nuggets to be so arduously mined as priceless. Now, I’m not going to claim to be an expert on even the contents, let alone the meaning of,“Beelzebub’s Tales”. I’m not intellectually centered. But, I have read it cover to cover once, and several times over if one counts the note-taking and looking up of references and so on, over the last thirty-five years. Yet, for all that, I needed a ‘cheat sheet’ to make it more accessible; that would be the Leibovian compacted edition, (published in SF and a bargain at $42 all those years ago), and the help of a knowledgeable fellow explorer, that would be Alan C. Enough ‘wiseacreing’ and chit-chat, and on to the essentials. (I’m assuming readers are familiar with the enneagram according to Gurdjieff/Ouspensky, rather than the bastardization culminating in the Helen Palmer mess.)
Here is the executive summary. Let us imagine Burton or anyone else as a man number four developing the potential to become a man number five. This is a very hazardous place on the enneagram of development possible to mortal man (movement of man 1, 2 and 3 to man 8). This is what Gurdjieff called the ‘place of maximum tension’, harnel-aoot, equidistant from the beginning and the end of the octave, under least influence by either, and the point of turning (Workwise) from the external into the internal. This is the correct time to envision, pray, and ask for help. One is, after all, hoping to crystallize and realize the Vision that was the ‘do’ of this octave! Think of Jesus spending his forty days fasting in the wilderness.
So, at the culmination of extraordinary efforts, one crystallizes…Here one incorporates the Ideal that was visualized at the ‘do’. This ideal was drawn from the unmanifested world, and reflected the being accumulated at that time. After crystallization is complete, the person acquires real creative power. Gurdjieff had something to say about this particular point in the octave of crystallization. He said (I paraphrase) that at that moment, the person crystallizing has a choice, which cannot be denied since it is the final note in the octave of crystallization. Between stations 5 and 7 on the enneagram is the region of maximum disharmony. This place is the region between the world of sex energy (world 12) and the world of thought (world 6). Things can seem deceptively easy after the incredible payment to reach there. There is a choice on how to use the creative energy. If one chooses to be the master of it, one becomes the slave of it. This is a major thought, so I’ll restate it in other terms. The choice is stark: does one choose to put these creative powers into service? Or does one choose to indulge oneself and become addicted to pleasure and control? Since it gives one a ‘rush’ to use it (one has opened channels to previously unavailable quantities and qualities of energies), and one can do whatever one wants, one can choose to indulge the power and what it brings. The other choice is to place the acquired power in service, THEN one truly becomes the master of the creative energy.
Readers with me so far will reach their own conclusions. Here are mine, for what they are worth. I concluded that Burton brought all his strengths (and they are many) and weaknesses (and they are many) to the “crystallization party”. He was phenomenally greedy, a liar (to others–and infinitely more dangerous–to himself) and already a sex addict. He was also kind, emotionally extremely perceptive, and an idealist in the best sense. Both sides of his nature became crystallized. He may have been in imagination that somehow the dark side would be ‘left behind’, I don’t know. At that moment, he had to choose. He was unprepared to do so, both by his teacher and by his being (too arrogant to read and heed Gurdjieff, for example). He did not spend his ‘forty days in the wilderness’ examining and coming to terms with his dark side, humbling himself and asking for help (grace). He made his choice exactly according to his being at the time. He was offered the ‘riches of the world’—and took them. In contrast, Christ rejected the temptations, and instead offered himself to service (Luke, ch. 4).
Crystallization is a serious and important subject within the Fourth Way. So, you good folks in the FOF who want to crystallize ‘rightly’, think, what is the example before you? You only have Robert Burton, who “has no other gods before him”. And, to those in the FOF who have ‘become conscious’, you say you are a man number 5 (there are excellent reasons, both theoretical and practical, for supposing you are not, but let’s leave that aside.) Thus, you are a mini-Burton. You cannot be otherwise, he taught you all you know, you molded yourself on his version of reality, he drew his map, you followed, and he initiated and energized you. Your vision is to be “just like him”. Any chance of the individuation REQUIRED before taking his place as he theoretically ‘moves up’ (another subject for a meaty discussion) you threw away, as Burton practiced his version of “I am a jealous god…” Tell me, what use is a conscious clone?
To those who aspire to follow in Burton’s footsteps: my (of course, unwanted) advice would be start praying earnestly that you haven’t actually crystallized yet. Study “Beelzebub’s Tales”, in particular Ch. 39, Holy Planet Purgatory, and—beware of the three wishes…
Warm regards to all,
Ames Gilbert
Relevant reading: Talks on Beelzebub’s Tales (Bennett) pp. 71-72, 77
Theory of Celestial Influence (Collin) pp. 189-198
In Search of the Miraculous (Ouspensky) pp. 226-227, 308
And one quote to good to be left to look up later…
From “In Search…” p. 256 onwards: “But it must again be remembered that only a person who is completely normal as regards sex has any chance in the work. Any kind of ‘originality’, strange tastes, strange desires, or, on the other hand, fears, constantly working ‘buffers’, must be destroyed from the very beginning. Modern education and modern life produce an enormous number of sexual psychopaths. They have no chance at all in the work.” And so on, to the end of chapter 12. Please, if you have the time, read once more every one of these relevant words, and maybe make the connections to “Living the Questions” post (#7-363).
…and if this is all irrelevant because the FOF is no longer a place to study the Fourth Way—quit advertising yourselves as such (starting with the bookmarks and website). Be honest, and call it by a truer name—the Church of Robert Burton.
May 4, 2007 at 9:18 pm
In one of the many links proposed by Sherlock Holmes, Post 214
“If they say: “BOO! You’ll die like a dog!” lift your leg and piss on their brogans.”
BOOHHHHHHHH!
May 4, 2007 at 9:19 pm
In Reply to Sherlock Holmes Post #214/8
Thank you for those links…wow, to say the least. Now one can complete the FoF circle, without a break, right back to the original ‘garden’ that the FoF was transplanted from,
i.e, Alex and Sharon Horn…wow again…
This pretty much tells it all when looking at the circular drone-ship of this ‘esoteric school’.
RB is simply the si-do of the triad concerning Alex, Sharon & himself.
I recall hearing that the FoF spent considerable money and time into finding the whereabouts of Alex Horn several years ago. He’s harder to find than a groundhog at Christmas time. Yet they found him eventually at RB’s request…You’ll figure out the rest I’m sure: and don’t be too surprised when they are summoned to court as possible co-contributors to this FoF ‘play’.
Love to you all.
May 4, 2007 at 10:33 pm
SusanK #192
Hello to you. Thanks for your very healing post.
Fleeing #203
Fleeing, your posts give us an accurate picture of your thought process. And although I don’t think I know you, do please keep posting.
2b, #206
No, didn’t see “Howard Carter” who is MIA or tag-teamed out. And whatever I was thinking, it was in neat little compartments that did not “leak” into each other. Oh well…
Coot, #207
Hilarious, please keep updating!!
(still working on my baby/bathwater/bathtub/bathroom post)
Half life #217
Good point. Next time I’m at Smart & Final I’ll look around more carefully.
“…to what degree we are free or use him to disown our own wisdom, power & independence by giving him power over us (or to someone else), even after leaving the school.”
Very apt, insightful, well put, thanks.
Kid Shelleen #221
“Has anyone else who’s gone down the therapy road since leaving had trouble explicating the whole of your fof beliefs to your therapist?”
Having waited 14 years, I’ve only communicated the parts that seem to keep me stuck, not the stuff that fell away pretty quickly and was obviously “junk food spirituality” (by which I mean all the crap like 44 angels, “prophesies”, etc.). At one time I thought only someone familiar with cult dynamics would be able to deal with this stuff, but now I realize it really isn’t necessary. And it has helped me tremendously, continues to do so.
But I did have an experience that taught me something. A few years ago I ran into a woman I’d known pretty well in college and hadn’t seen for 30 years. We agreed to have lunch and catch up. I had been wanting an opportunity to “tell my story” to someone outside the universe of “spiritual seekers” and thought she would be perfect.
I listened with interest to her story of “what had happened” to her in the intervening years. About a week later we had lunch and it was my turn.
Central to my account was the fof and how it had impacted “what had happened” to me. I didn’t go into all the wacky beliefs, just the basic story line, why I had moved to various places, been married, all in the framework of the fof.
She listened intently if a bit incredulously (she’s a therapist/social worker). At the end, she looked at me like I was absolutely bonkers and perhaps dangerous. She seemed repelled by the whole account, almost disgusted. We haven’t mentioned it since, and I’ve made no other attempts along those lines.
JoelF
May 4, 2007 at 11:20 pm
Hello, all of you gorgeous creatures. What a deal, huh? I just read some of this blog for the first time, and Holy Shit, I had no idea. What an incredible, juicy, intense Dramedy. I have a theory. The FOF either turned us against ourselves or towards not personally being ourselves, or both, or neither. Also, I do have one piece of advice. Wholeheartedly, vigorously, and unflinchingly express negative emotions. I know because it took me a while to get caught up…then, the toxicity disappeared.
May 4, 2007 at 11:41 pm
What a fascinating blog! I’ll put in my two cents, even though it may be similar to what’s gone before.
I left the FoF long ago, but it certainly influenced my life. Those were some interesting years. I thought I’d found the coolest thing going. The only thing. O, lucky man. O frabjous day. And in some ways, it was, at least for me. I didn’t learn about self-remembering from the FoF, but joined it to deepen my practice, and I did that. I met some really intelligent people who were serious about working on themselves, and hanging out with them was a good thing. I learned a lot about art, and a little about music and opera and ballet and good food, and that’s a good thing. I learned to work hard, to push myself, which has stayed with me ever since, and I’m grateful for that. I also learned a lot about myself, that I was desperate to escape my unhappiness, desperate to be acknowledged as spiritually superior, desperate to find a mate, as well as many other mundane things that are common to many people, in or out of the FoF.
I continue to believe the FoF taught me many important things, but I eventually realized that my many personal weaknesses blew those valuable things into a fantasy that, in hindsight, now seems embarrassing and ridiculous. So much of the FoF trip is based on extrapolating far beyond the basic facts to such fantasies, which is a shame, because it spoils what might otherwise be useful. I also think the idea that it only spoils it for those unfortunates that buy into the fantasy, leaving an “inner circle” of those who see through the fantasy to the “reality,” is just another fantasy.
After many years experiencing different traditions, I see the FoF tool chest as containing some very valuable tools, but it’s really a pretty sparse set of tools, and the tools in it can be found in many, many other places, assuming a person wants to be part of an organized group.
Self-remembering: great. No need to critique it, I found it valuable then, and I still do. It’s a core Buddhist practice that’s been used for more than two thousand years and can be pursued with, for example, zen groups in every city in the world. Many cities have hundreds of dedicated zen practitioners, among several groups, trying just as hard, I’ll wager, to be present as any FoF member, being intentional, and so on. For those who are hard-core about wanting to be present, they can sit for a week or two or three in a zen sesshin, doing nothing but trying to be present, and can continue practicing night and day while they work in the kitchen, etc., just like in the FoF. (Ring of Bone zendo in Nevada City has a wonderful teacher in Nelson Foster.) People somehow seem to find the motivation to continue their efforts for many years without turning over huge sums of money or buying into fear- or vanity-based fantasies.
Working with negativity? In addition to my observations of myself, I’ve known some people before, during, and after they were in the FoF, and I don’t think membership, even for many years, made that much difference one way or another. I found many very kind people in the FoF. I’ve found many kind people out of the FoF. I found people, in and out, who were nasty as can be. I don’t think the FoF’s approach is as helpful as it could be, because it teaches (in practice, if not in theory) that the whole purpose of not expressing negativity is to further the evolution of the individual, which just serves to further strengthen the individual’s illusory sense of individuality. Even “external consideration” is viewed as a way to further one’s own evolution; members do nothing for anyone without calculating a personal benefit. Using selfishness as the motivator has some real limitations. It caused me to become more, not less, selfish, and I began to see that many of my fellow FoF members were just constantly looking at everything in terms of what they could get out of it for themselves, on every level—and believing this very fact was a mark of an evolved person, rather than its opposite. As Gordon Gecko said, “Greed is good.”
Robert Burton, from what I could see, adopted a couple of the tools he discovered in the fourth way, but never learned many of the others (such as the movements) that apparently have been used, and tried to turn this ignorance into a strength by saying his was the “way of love.” I was in the FoF for a number of years and I never saw any remarkable manifestations of “love,” beyond what I’ve found in different social situations over the years. Appreciating art is good, and being present to it, great, but it’s not exactly a blockbuster, “esoteric” tool for awakening. Not a bad thing, just not much of a basis for a lifetime commitment to an institution. I didn’t lose my ability to go to art museums and be present to paintings when I left the FoF.
The few tools the FoF offers are overlaid with so much stuff that, in hindsight, pretty obviously serves only to perpetuate a business. That Robert Burton is “conscious,” whatever that is supposed to mean. I don’t buy into the idea that a person becomes “conscious” once and for all, and thereafter everything they do is perfect and wise. I’ve seen nothing of Robert Burton or any other “spiritual teacher” to support this theory. No experience, or series of experiences, with Robert Burton can prove he is always “conscious,” so what’s the purpose of making that a cornerstone of FoF ideology? Why even mention it? That a certain member is on her “seventh lifetime.” That a certain event will occur in the future. That so-and-so historical figure is “working with the school.” That the FoF is the “only conscious school.” That no one can become “conscious” if they leave, but everyone has to pay whatever is asked in order to stay. This may be an excellent business plan, but trying to see it as divinely inspired is sad. For a group that prides itself on “verifying everything,” it’s amazing how much everything was permeated with the unverifiable, really no different from the Catholic Church plus self-remembering. There was so much in the FoF that people were unable to see simply for what it was, without interpreting it through a lens of unverifiable propaganda. What looked to everyone else to be selfishness can’t be selfishness, it must be something else. What looked like greed can’t really be greed. Lust can’t be lust. A lie isn’t really a lie. Everything that gave the appearance of being a human frailty was explained away by reference to something Robert said that people liked to think they had verified, but really hadn’t. All weaknesses were really strengths. But people could feel comfortable by telling themselves they were expected to verify everything.
It’s kind of freaky to think that at least some of the same people I knew so many years ago are still wandering around the same grounds, just decades older, now middle-aged men with less hair and more weight around the middle, just like me, or middle-aged women with more wrinkles and sagging. I don’t think I’m any better than anyone else just because I left, any more than I think someone who didn’t leave is any better than I am just because they didn’t. But sometimes it helps to get some perspective.
May 4, 2007 at 11:44 pm
#187; How did Wheeler in person ‘fill in the blanks’ for you?
I realized that I am everything that I am. No more, no less.
May 4, 2007 at 11:46 pm
“You may have left the school but I don’t know if you completely outgrown the need for such a dependency. But I’m not a proffessional.”
Please, don’t be so fast to pass judgement. It is really irrelevant if I have or have not outgrown the need for such dependency because I know who I am now.
Thanks.
May 4, 2007 at 11:53 pm
“Beware of people who are willing not to be taught. This should be your first red flag.”
Hey we all got to start somewhere.
May 4, 2007 at 11:58 pm
Non-duality: no baby; no bathwater; effortless effort eff e zzzzzzzzzz
- Actually, the efforts you make are a trap that keeps you unaware of who you are. The more effort you make, the tighter the binds become. The real effort is to loosen the binds by being who you are, conciously.
May 5, 2007 at 12:37 am
#187; How did Wheeler in person ‘fill in the blanks’ for you?
Go meet him and see if he fills in your blanks.
May 5, 2007 at 1:24 am
Re Joel Friedlander author of “Body Types” running into RB but being too paranoid to even say hello–this shows you are still not outgrown the influence this man has over you.
You hide your inferiority by judging his looks (having aged, etc.) and the glib comment of interchangeability of his companions. But you hide your smallness poorly. Who are you to judge the friends of RB who are there around him, learning, as you presumably once did too.
Glad that the likes of you are are not around any longer to reduce the Fellowship to your low level of judgment…A sad statement about yourself.
Misc.
May 5, 2007 at 1:39 am
#218 Golb
Yes the snake is eating its own tail while shedding its skin.
Exlax 101, unoanimo, old dog, coot, Rabbi burns, no person, others are all angels to me right now.
What the “non-dualists” are presenting combined with the idea of “pain-body” are just what the doctor ordered for me and it does not matter one whit what anyone thinks about that.
I hope you all get what you need from wherever you get it from.
May 5, 2007 at 1:40 am
An assortment of “I’s”
Hello to Joel-I remember many meetings at the Masonic Hall on Slout in S.F. when you spoke with Linda. When I was in the FOF everyone called me Duncan because that is my name. After leaving the FOF I started a band. My partner thought it was funny to say “beam me up Scotty” (STARTREK) because I am of Scottish descent. This occurred so often that all the musicians I worked with thought it was my name and called me Scott so I grew used to it. Now after 20 some years it has become a habit.
.
Legal Action- personal legal action against RB is unlikely to have much of a possibility of success. How ever it may be possible to use the FOF legal status as a church against the currant leadership by claiming that RB and the FOF leadership have been misappropriating funds and forcing anyone who object’s to this to leave. This has some potential because there are more former members than currant. If the FOF was forced to allow a vote of all those who chose to consider themselves members of this church it may possible to elect a slate of candidates with an independent agenda. I say this because it appears that RB is a master bureaucrat. Few in the FOF have the level of being and separation to deal with him as a opponent ( CARL WERNER was an exception to this)and he has no hesitation using his position as “spiritual” guide to out maneuver any opposition. An example that comes to mind is sending Stella to EUROPE away from the FOF office that controlled the funds before evicting her. I remember the disappearance of Donald Macdonald and the lack of discussion on this “almost conscious beings” departure.
Collecting personal history is a practical tool to combat the criminal aspects of the FOF.
unfortunately to be really effective former members who were complicit in questionable activities need to write honest histories. That is if you lead meetings, counseled students, collected money and in any way promoted the FOF while having knowledge of RB’s misuse of authority, funds and sexual manipulations you need to document this and any pressures to conform to the FOF party line. These acts while in them selves not necessarily criminal in the sense of being illegal would be criminal in the objective sense and certainly would be good indications of a pattern of discrimination and misuse of the church’s legal status.
This is a challenging area of law because of the constitutional separation of church and state and special status of a church. some research into this area of law would help as even the threat of losing its exempt status as a church would be serious to the FOF and R’s postion as head “minister”. another aspect of this is that the IRS has the autority to review the FOF exempt status and assess back taxes if it finds that the FOF is in fact not a church. such a course is unlikely to recover much for individual students it would however do serious hurt to the FOF. Even a review could cause a serious inconvenience. As shallow as it sounds I find for myself that when someone does me wrong it offers some emotional satisfaction to return the favor. This is not expresessing negativity and as it is as useful to try and not identify with the emotional sense of satisfaction of exacting a revenge as the feeling of being victimized.
By the way one reason I think this was is that while a student I worked with a tax attorney ( student) and accountant selling fraudulant tax shelters in Orange county. the fraud part was in the not following up with the placement of copy machines and video games. what a mistake of course the video game market exploded and there was a lost potential for being in on the beginning of a very profitable business.
so two possibilities-
ONE a class action suit to allow former students to vote on the FOF leadership.
TWO complaints to the IRS and franchise tax board.
SCOTT DUNCAN
May 5, 2007 at 1:45 am
A storey
An esoteric student was once studying old manuscripts and after dilegent study and reflection he addressed his teacher. Master I find these confusing, some things make sense to me, other s seem confusing or foolish and yet others I cannot comphrehend at all. The master said-you show wisdom in your question because indeed this is true- there are some things meant to be understood by any reasonable student, others are only available when a teacher reveals the truth to the students. There is yet a third catagory this is what you see as the foolish things – in truth there are certain things included because any one with common sense will see that they are of interest only to fools and avoid those who find them of interest.
Scott
May 5, 2007 at 2:27 am
To Sacramento Bee (172)
There is also an interesting article on the Rick Ross site about “cult labor”. It mentions the Fellowship and articulates the notion that it is unethical to buy the wine since its employees are comprised of “cult labor”.
To Yesri Baba (160)
Thanks for your response to my question about the strange response I received from M to my simple question.
I also agree with you that communication is amazingly complex. In particular, the written word, without gestures, facial expression, tone of voice, etc., can be particularly pithy.
One can glean quite a bit about character through one’s written expressions.
For instance, “Fleeing” (203) reveals a deep cesspool of anger, angst, agitation, etc., through puerile insults and scatological references directed toward Joel.
Siddiq, in general, chooses to adopt an even and gentle tone which does not demand adherence to his opinion. He seems curious, rather open to a dialogue, as opposed to a monologue and seems receptive to ideas.
Although this discussion offers anonimity, one’s state, character, emotions, etc., clearly emanates.
Best of everything to all.
LL
May 5, 2007 at 3:22 am
From this week’s Thoughts From The Teacher:
“The Duomo in Milan is an elegant and monumental expression of the sequence.”
May 5, 2007 at 5:54 am
The Sequence,Bible Keys and Body types are an eruption from the same infected mind.
A sick imagination of MESS # 7
May 5, 2007 at 7:01 am
Hi Sheik,
re:#223,
“Believing that there is this all-powerful, all-knowing being above us, watching us play (on the word of a book), is as ridiculous as it is to believe that 44 angels guide us in our life. Equally so, believing that there was this guy 2,000 years ago (on the word of a priest) who came back to life after he was killed, is as ridiculous as it is to believe that the only conscious being on the planet is Robert Burton.”
I thought this was an interesting post. But anything can sound ridiculous when put literally. For example: money. Is it simply a mental construct? Or tradition, or love. Anything, pretty much.
The mythos of a story is where the life is, and in a way, that is why this discussion is actually important (as all such discussions are.) All of this – and really, everything in a human life – has a deep meaning. An archetypal meaning.
Also, I think that belief is as strong as anything. I remember engaging in an online ‘argument’ with a highly educated celebrated man regarding science vs religion (actually it was really science vs any other way of thinking whatsoever.) He simply could not see that he “believed” in science – the scientific method. To him it was objective reality, without any clouding of his mind or eyes. But his belief opened the doors of that reality.
In my way of thinking (having sat with Buddhists as an influence here) belief carries our Mind (Buddhist term- can it translate to soul?, awareness?) after death. Belief also carries us in life – providing meaning and direction. Sleeping dreams are a form of awareness where our deeper levels of awareness are sort of available to our awareness. I really thought it was interesting about the comment that Mr. G’s work happened before much of the very fascinating 20th c explorations on the unconscious. ‘Mind’ is a wholeness and includes our will, our habits/patterns, that which we just don’t see about ourselves, and probably much much more, like our possibilities. And ‘mind’ is so informed by belief. Really, in a person’s life it is of the most importance.
All myth has rippling deeper meanings. Like the Greek mythologies which added so much to the study of astrology, of which the ‘body types’ is a simplistic version of. The story of the fof and RB and the folks who worship him (or Believe in him) and the group, can be taken literally. But it also contains layers and layers of myth and meaning. Literal perception is formed by meaning.
You don’t believe me? Here’s an example that most everyone above the age of 25 will most likely relate to: OK, say you are you and in high school you adore someone. He or she looks REALLY GOOD, and is great and funny. God, almost perfect!! then, later, maybe after a bad kiss, or a kick in the ass, suddenly he or she doesn’t look so good. You are looking out of the same eyeballs, but the perception shifts and the eyeballs actually see differently.
The ability to entertain truth even tho, juxtaposed, it is at odds with literal truth, is a really creative talent. I think that you, sheik, have that in spades. Ever get the tingles at your connection with this group? (of course ‘group’ is exponential, and even quantum.)
I truly think it is a good practice to be respectful of other’s belief. It’s a good starting place. I guess it could be said that we are a ship of fellow fools.
If the fof falls apart from the weight of its own shadow – well, good. And, sorry – but that’s what happens. It will be a story no matter what.
May 5, 2007 at 8:29 am
Hello everyone. I’m kind of astonished at the “level” at which people are communicating. Just because you reject the FOF doesn’t mean your comments need to be so “hip”, or glib. I don’t mean to judge, but it seems like amidst all the suffering I find on this blog, there’s a good dose of false personality. It seems like a defense.
In any case — this is my 20th anniversary of departing from the FOF. I’m so sorry that things have continued to descend in the same vein as when I left, but there could be no other course when one is living so many lies. Still, I personally received things from the Fellowship that are immensely dear to me, and that I could not have received from any other place. It was an amazing place to spend my twenties. But recovery from it, took me through my thirties. I am so glad that these issues