April 20, 2007
The Fellowship of Friends Discussion, part 7
Posted by the Esoteric Sheik of Inner Confusion under Discussion, Fellowship of Friends, ForumThe time has come to move again.
For part 6 click here.
For part 5 click here.
For part 4 click here.
For part 3 click here.
For part 2 click here.
For the article that I wrote so very long ago, and for the first and potentially most enlightening part of the discussion click here.
And as always, enjoy and have fun.
April 20, 2007 at 3:35 pm
So, after thinking hard on whether to add a paypal donations button to Animam Recro, I have chosen to go through with it.
If you wish to make a donation to this blog, you can do so from the main page of the blog (ie. click home in the top right corner of the screen and look for the paypal donate button on the right). The donation would be in £GBP, not $US (currently the exchange rate is roughly 2$=1£).
Thank you.
April 20, 2007 at 3:35 pm
To Howard #6/406.
For your reference, Howard, I have not posted on this forum under any other personas - just Anonymous 6/376.
Your reply neatly illustrates the problem with formatory thinking and the mind behind it.
You use the word ‘verification’ as merely that - a word. As your level of being changes, so your verifications change. After all, your own inner world is becoming slightly different, so the chemical combinations with anything outside you, including ideas (such as Robert’s divinity), are going to be different too.
And verification is not either linear or black-and-white. In my experience it is cyclic, you are returned to the same spot - in familiar circumstances - again and again… and every time you return, the ‘verification’ is not quite the same as before. It seems to me that your understanding of ‘verification’ only works on the level of words.
And you are mis-understanding the steward comparison (deliberately?). The point is that we need to be convinced that Robert has swept all of HIS rooms clean - particularly the room containing identification with his sexual needs - before he can ‘mind’ ours - or put our evolution first, as you said. If some of the accounts in this forum are true, there indeed seem to have been many occasions when the two have come into conflict. And because Robert seems to have a conflict of interests, every student in the School experiences it too in some form or other.
Must you not be able to practice non-identification in your favourite ‘room’ before you can preach it meaningfully?
Have you ever thought why (about a year ago) two students of the ‘inner circle’ started selling vouchers for Robert’s events in return for sex? It was because they thought it was permissible, they were following the model they saw in front of them…
April 20, 2007 at 4:10 pm
Living the contradiction 4
—– SELF-remembering versus “love they neighbor”
Every spiritual movement is a reaction to what is there. So the focus on one’s own SELF in the Fourth Way is a reaction to the fact that the Christians (generally speaking) went over board with the idea that loving and caring for the people around them would get them into paradise.
Therefore the gods brought Gurdjieff onto the World-stage promoting, as he stated “You have to become a conscious egoist”. This is one of those contradictions that sheep never can live. Therefore most Fourth Way followers live only half of this Contradiction, and the Fourth Way has now an over population of Egoist who call this SELF-remembering.
Before these events in Egypt I was a good example of this mis-development. Loreta reminded me of the last lunch Cassandra and I had together with her before leaving for Egypt. We talked about our 5 years in India where RB had send us to open Centers. Cassandra told Loreta that at one point she almost died there and Loreta then said to her “Now in Egypt you will take better care” and before my dear Cassandra could answer I stated “We will do what is required”.
Its this spirit that is praised very high in the Fourth Way, they call it “Total dedication”, but in fact it is a lack of feeling based also on the nature of its founder Gurdjieff who was inhabiting a “King of Clubs” mechanism.
Loreta today said to me that for her it had always been clear that RB is also a King of Clubs who is trying to educate his King of Hearts and although I had never thought of that, many things suddenly made a lot of sense. For example, why he always painted the KOC as the main enemy? Simply because everyone is most aware of what is a large part of oneself. Also this explains why he surrounded himself with so many instinctively centered machines.
But what was so shocking that he obviously used the tragic events in Egypt for his promotional purposes and that he never expressed any emotions to me in this respect. On the contrary it was clear that my presence reminded his KOC of Death and that was the reason why he put me out for the stupid reason of not accepting his gift of a jacket.
As before I do not any less think that he is conscious, which for me means “to be a perfect tool of the gods”. But different than my naïve previous believe “that one has to follow anything what this messenger asks”, is now the understanding that the gods want one to become a “Conscious Egoist” and not just “Conscious Sheep”. Such a man is the tool, the channel, that the gods use to create a play that is full of Contradictions and that some can use to wake up.
As I stated before, it is clear to me that the play that is unfolding carries the message for those that can hear and do not only follow their momentum and fears, that it is time to start something new. Its as simple as that, no need to blame the past, RB, or oneself.
There is a total lack of compassion in Fourth Way hardliners inside and outside the school as one could also feel in the acidity of some comments on this Blog. For example today I was leaving Café Collage and Thomas Fenn met us outside. He was the last one who met all three, Daniela, Cassandra and myself together in Rome and even then asked me to lead a meeting, shortly before the death of Daniela and Cassandra. Now this evening he would not even respond to my Hello.
What made this lack of compassion particularly clear was when I send out a message to all my customers last week telling them what happened for me in the last 18 month and I got so many loving replies like the following:
“Kiran, I was stopped in my tracks just now this morning when I was reading unread emails and came across this deeply personal sharing from you. By now you may be in the joy state regarding the blessing of the time on earth you had with your wife, I hope so. I am glad you survived and are bringing your gifts more to the sharing arena with us who are being touched by your application of the many things you know.”
“Kiran. It is breathtaking and spiritually uplifting. I think that all of us on this email are lucky to be alive and practicing in the alternative medicine and spiritual spheres.”
“I am a firm believer in the eyes as being the entry to the soul. Your eyes show the kind of person you are, and I believe your eyes show honesty and integrity, as well as, a deep thinker and creative artist. I can’t also help but say, there’s a bit of ego left there, but it’s been calmed to the point of humility. Ego is not always a bad thing, and I think most outstanding creators of any kind need to call on the ego to accomplish their goal.”
“This was a moving and inspiring address. I hope you get the response that it merits and I am happy to hear about what you experienced since what you describe is part of my experience of life as well. Although I did not have to suffer through so much…”
And so many more of this kind, from people I did not meet once. And now the stunning fact is that I did not get one e-mail message from one of my hundreds so-called Friends in the FOF, that I was spending time with for the last 20 years, in the last 18 month…. Just ponder about, what this fact tells you.
Just as the devoted Christians loose themselves in helping others, the dedicated Fourth Way student is lost in his wrong concept of SELF-remembering that leaves no space for compassion.
Living the Contradiction also in this respect will only be for few, it needs courage, observation, thinking, being true to oneself and of course feeling. I know all this payment of Cassandra and Daniela was only to that end that some wake up and transcend Contradictions.
Greetings from Oregon House
You can e-mail me at Kiran@inergetix.com
Or you can see some more pictures here
http://www.beingpresent.net
April 20, 2007 at 4:15 pm
HC said:
“One doesn’t have to keep re-verifying it. If one feels the need to keep verifying it, it only means one has not really verified it to begin with.”
Reminds of a definition I once heard for the word conclusion: The place where I got tired of thinking.
April 20, 2007 at 5:45 pm
Hey lovely cyberseekers,
I too, have felt somewhat discouraged by the tone of the blog in general. Maybe it’s because I’ve been in a little slump…. Everything seems to coalesce in such amazing ways, and not all of them are joyful. It’s painful to see where I have failed to love and beloved.
It’s a bit stale by now but Howard, dear, don’t turn your circular reasoning on me and think I’ll belly up to your insulations that I’m being formatory. I’m not the one who belongs to a group claiming to “own” C-influence and the shocks they deliver. I know how the school defines formatory thinking and I think you’re swimming in it. You ain’t got nothing on my sweet mama.
Practical (6/382): “That is why this blog is so depressing. It is based on the assumption that because the Fellowship did not help some people in their search, that it cannot help anyone.”
If you have truly read my posts or many of the posts of people who have been in the FoF for ten, twenty years, and who are part of this discussion, I don’t think you would say that. I, for one, have never said that you can’t be helped by the school.
The problem is, and all you defending the FOF, please try to let this sink in… Be clear about what you’re defending! It’s not that the FoF isn’t full of wonderful, well-meaning people, or that there are some working ideas and aspects to the teacher and his approach to awakening, it’s that there are some very ugly aspects to his “system” which are incredibly painful to confront if you have the courage to leave. Practical wrote, “Why assume that students are so mindless they cannot take what is useful from the teaching and put aside the rest?” Fine, on the first part but consider this: What you are “putting aside” is ME and other’s like me; personally, what is being “put aside” is a totally inclusive relationship with my mama (and her community), what you are “putting aside” are all the living, breathing individuals who have left and been condemned, if by no one else, than by your teacher (isn’t that enough!?), as “food for the moon”. Sure, go ahead put it all aside. Cause I’ve had to put THAT painful untruth aside to live my life.
And for you non (in my opinion) non-dualists out there. Sorry, but I can’t apologize if you don’t get my complaints about what seems to me going from the frying pan into the fire. In the words of John Wheeler: “What I am is that pure, non-objective presence-awareness that cannot be doubted or denied. What I am not is the body, emotions, mind and — most importantly — a separate person or character created in thought.” That’s not helpful talk to me. It is, in fact, very dangerous talk to me. It’s the kind of talk that has allowed people for centuries to destroy, deny, and debase the bodies, thoughts and feelings of others.
I want to respect my self and others —in body, thought, heart and soul— I want to live a full life here and now. And that means looking at it all clearly and accepting that it’s all going down as it is in this body, with these thoughts and feelings …it’s in realizing that I can take responsibility for some small portion of how my life unfolds, and connect to the I Am that we are at the same time that I fearlessly dive into this experience of Being Human.
I’m tired of intellectualizing my life away. I want to live it.
Join me in NYC sometime and we’ll see if we can make the gods laugh in and through and with us….
love,
Jules
Julescaz(at)earthlink(dot)net
April 20, 2007 at 6:17 pm
Dear All,
Yesterday I’ve received a message from my close friend Kosta Dmitriev from St.Petersburg, which he sent to the students in Russia.
I thought that it was quite funny (if it wasn’t sad), and asked Kosta if I could translate it and post it on the blog, to which he agreed. If you have any questions, you’re free to ask Kosta directly, his email address is: shantiway@yahoo.com
To those who don’t know Kosta personally, I am pleased to tell that he is one of those handsome young Russian men who rejected Robert’s advances.
———————————————-
Dear friends,
Thank you very much for the time we spent together, it was wonderful.
As many before me, I decided to leave the school when I discovered the details of sexual ‘adventures’ of the teacher.
Of course, as everybody else in the school, I knew that Robert is a homosexual. So what? So many great people and even our friends were and are homosexuals, bi-sexuals, transvestites – nobody is shocked by this nowadays. Especially among the different kinds of ‘spiritual seekers’, where there are always many, let’s say, exotically oriented people. That’s not the case, as me and my wife too, sometimes doing such things, that… let’s not talk about it.
Back to business, here are the results of my observations and investigations.
The school as organisation and its exercises are intended to:
1.Attract sponsorship for the very expensive and exquisite erotic games of Robert and Co. Teaching payments are spent on expensive clothes, often made to order for the boys and the entourage; original Viagra pills which cost $50 per tablet (completely identical ones in India cost $0.5). Air tickets and 5-star hotels for the harem; fake passports which are bought from Italian mafia, for the especially treasured lovers from Russia, and of course, for the new centres in developing countries, where new ‘members’ (‘member’ in Russian is the same word for penis – Rita) are so cheap. Also, 5-figure sums for the lawyers and parents of some of the ‘woken up’ underage victims of the teacher’s ‘mischievous’ activities.
2.Cover up the very fact that those orgies are taken place just before and after the meetings and are the main interest of the teacher in his school and the reason for its existence.
The cover-up is necessary in order to prevent students from thinking about how the teacher was using his mouth just before he kisses their foreheads. Many wouldn’t like to think about it at all. Of course, there will always be those who will work with acceptance and continue to be present to any sort of madness. But most students would leave the school to be present elsewhere.
Robert is interested only in young men, only straight (otherwise it’s not such fun to ‘get’ them), usually in financial need, preferably spiritually unripe and, what’s called in Russia, ‘without a King in the head’, and with high level of conformity of behaviour. That’s it.
Yes, my friends, it’s all about ‘members, members and more members’. Preferably big in size and several at the time. But if only that was all…
The stories of the participants are beyond even the most perverse sexual imagination.
One student has almost chocked on the teacher’s penis while giving him a blowjob. He had to be rescued by his fellow orgy-participants from the unstoppable in his sexual urge teacher.
The ‘height’ of those stories is the ‘Fountain of Eternal Youth’. What do you think that would mean? Very simple. Students are pissing in the teacher’s mouth. One at the time, or all together. I asked about the next, you know, logical step… They said – yes! That step has been taken. Sometimes all would get smeared. And why? You won’t believe… Gurjieff ordered from the astral plane!!! In order to be more present!
It’s understandable that such moments of presence will never be forgotten. You’ll be in the third state without any effort, and maybe even beyond third state, as many afterwards live their lives, wearing ‘horse faces’ forever.
You will ask me, what makes these people do this?
It’s very simple, really: everybody does it, they say. It’s accepted behaviour. You know about ‘norms of group behaviour in the totalitarian sects’.
Strangely, but many continue to interpret what happened to them in terms of the enlightenment. As a special, mystical experience of presence, which they would not get anywhere else. And, at the same time, they hate Robert for what he’s done to them and cherish plans for revenge (usually blackmail of some kind). It’s understandable, because otherwise you’d have to admit that you’ve been simply ….. .
Some invested too much in the school, suffered, paid; some simply have nowhere else to go. Most students simply don’t know many things, despite the fact that all information is published on the Internet. And, except for the ‘special’ details, it’s known to the ‘old’ students. I didn’t know the details myself, so I was hoping that Robert’s ‘antics’ were simply ‘free love’ with a bit of tantra. But, according to the participants, the whole thing is completely rotten and Robert is a typical ‘post-traumatic psychopath’. Of course, you can continue as if it wasn’t true, but then you’ll have to pay him, and that is a question of moral standards which, as any case where one is trading one’s conscience, is deeply personal. For me, it’s simply too much. It’s your business now, think for yourselves.
I wish you with all my heart to wake up before, and not during, the time when you are asked to piss someone in the mouth, given the reason of working on the 3rd line of work.
Thank you. You are welcomed any time to call or to write me.
Kosta
April 20, 2007 at 6:50 pm
Howard:
“At the core of verification are two things: constancy, and trust. These attributes come into play after one has verified something. In the school one’s verifications are tested often over time… If one has verified the school is real there is a finality involved. One doesn’t have to keep re-verifying it. If one feels the need to keep verifying it, it only means one has not really verified it to begin with.”
Complete and utter horse shit, designed to perpetuate the status quo, and just another step in the cult dynamic.
And if you’re going to mention “being tested” let’s discuss “guru syndrome”. You know, where one starts a group for supposedly altruistic reasons. Slowly the power hungry and sycophantic followers huddle around the “teacher” supporting his image of himself, like worker termites having to roll the fat lazy Queen termite from one part of the nest to another. Eventually he, or she, begins to believe their own myth. Before you know it, it’s drug, sex and rock and roll (maybe without the rock and roll). I’ve known or come into contact with a few “biggies” as far as gurus in my life, and the VERY FIRST TEST they get as a teacher they invariably fail. They become corrupt, some quickly, some slowly, but invariably they do become corrupt.
This does not, in any way (to my way of thinking) negate the “rightness” of one’s path, including the FOF, but facts are facts. Just because the cop on the corner can directly and safely direct you to the grocery store you’re looking for, that doesn’t mean he isn’t also a psychopath who’s keeping children chained up in his basement.
Maps can be useful, but remember that the lay of the land can change fairly quickly, and there you are holding an obsolete map.
April 20, 2007 at 8:13 pm
#407 To Joe Average
Thank you, thank you, thank you! This letter is so complete and pentetrating, I will send it on to a few ‘committed FoFers” that I particularily care about with the vague hope that they recognize their situation.
Perhaps others would consider doing the same.
After this letter, all words pale, all thoughts that continue to defend the FOF and REB are just that.
Good Luck to us all!
April 20, 2007 at 8:35 pm
Suggest that current ‘FoFers’ read # 407 from Joe Average . And then re-read it.
It tells it all. What more do you need to know?
April 20, 2007 at 8:40 pm
Esoterica wrote, 6/404:
“This “Howard Carter” is putting the issues neatly and directly in front of us and argues them well. It seems that you cannot deal with it, because of course the matter of joining or staying in the FOF cannot simply be summed up as reducing the experience of students to wanting to be “special”…if that was the case, someone as smart as you would have left a long time before you did, yes?”
Esoterica, do I know you?
My post about realizing the fof is not “special” was just one note in a larger work, not the whole of it.
Looking over the posts of the entity calling itself “Howard Carter” is enervating. I find no humanity, no warmth, no humor, no concern for the suffering of individuals, no depth of personal introspection, no engagement with the larger world, and no great intellect whatever. It is the disembodied voice of a mind wholly controlled by dogma.
Burton’s mind-control cult of personal aggrandizement called the Fellowship of Friends is no longer of much interest to me–been there, done that, came out the other side.
So no, it’s not that I “cannot deal with it” but that I have no interest in doing so. I was an apologist myself for some time, maybe as adept as “Howard” at circular logic, and there’s no joy engaging in that world any longer.
I don’t see the fof as different in any substantial way from any other high control, high intensity closed group (see the brilliant Da Free John post above, for instance). I’m not very interested in what’s going on infof now; I’m sure I no longer know many people still infof these days; and I don’t really care what happens to it as an organization.
(Although I have to say I’ve gotten some really good laughs out of “The Sequence” posts. Hard to imagine a “practice” that would so decisively take me out of the moment I’m experiencing. The “discovery” of “ancient wisdom” just struck me as hysterically funny, like if SNL did a parody of cults. Can’t you see Bill Murray as the cult leader poring over cave drawings of defecating boars, divining great wisdom from the shit-drops?)
So no, I don’t think “Howard is putting the issues neatly and directly in front of us and argues them well.” These are not my issues, I don’t find any originality in his posts, and frankly they bore me. Just more intellect gone to waste rationalizing the guy who’s holding him a mental prisoner. You debate him if it’s important to you. (And would you mind not flaming me? Thanks.)
Thanks for reading
JoelF
April 20, 2007 at 8:41 pm
Howard:
Since you’ll do what Robert asks you to do, seeing as how he’ll never do anything to harm you, I respectfully suggest that if he asks you to place your penis in his rectum, you insist on wearing a condom. Otherwise you will likely contract herpes. I did. It’s inconvenient.
Please pardon my anonymity.
April 20, 2007 at 8:50 pm
To: Crouching Tiger, 7/2:
I wasn’t suggesting you are third pig, just putting two answers together as they were quite simliar.
As far and two “Inner circle” members selling seats at Robert’s meeting for sex; who said the inner circle is free of mistakes of judgment?
It is clear to many inner circle members, maybe two more now, that one can’t try emulate Robert in all ways, or at all times.
At the risk of incurring another “formatory” photo, I would say Robert is under different laws than students and one of the mine fields of the school is to know when to emulate him and when not to.
April 20, 2007 at 8:58 pm
White Knight #388, yes, and wasn’t there an earlier Kornfield book in which he went into these problems in some depth? Thanks for a lovely post.
Kid Shelleen #392, thanks, I remember that meeting also. lol. Stories, hopefully, will continue to come from all sides.
Joe Average #407, brilliant, thanks for taking the trouble. Yeah, I can see the twinkle in Margaret’s eye now. Did she ever tell you about the cult based on horse training? You gotta laugh, man.
April 20, 2007 at 10:34 pm
TO Howard Carter, 6/406
I am not use to send long post but this affirmation of yours changed that. I am not sorry nor proud… Just informative.
You write:
“At the core of verification are two things: consistancy and trust.”
In the world of science, it is well known that you work to verify WHAT you postulate or formulate as a theory.
It is simple:
Picture a hollow tube, you put something in the tube (your hypothesis)and you place the tube containing your hypothesis under different conditions.
What will you verify?
What you put in the tube!
Concerning the hypothesis and the conditions?
Will they be the same if you are a FOF Student or, as an ex., a Church of Scientology member ?
As a scientist, you record every possible (postulat, step, and so on) for you to validate or in-validate your postulat.
It takes time… we know,
but 20 and more years in the FOF is time enough!
Let’s be practical and FOF orientated:
In 1998, who did not see/read/verifyied signs of the possible fall of California (1998)?
Who did not see,
in the many signs,
an omen
and,
in the omen,
a very private relationship with Higher Forces, Conscious Influences guiding FOF members towards consciousness, creating the School, using Robert Burton as the main point of contact between the two worlds or realms?
Howard Carter, I do picture you as a “mature” FOF student and the 1998 periode is surely meaningful to you:
Did you see/shared signs ?
Did you make clear deductions/verifications then ?
What are they now, verifying/knowing what you know?
Any conclusion(s) ?
Interval: Funny quotes from students at that time, during a meeting:
“I can tell the grand son I don’t have:
“I WAS THERE WHEN IT DID NOT HAPPEND!”
“HERE IS MY TUNA CAN! WHERE IS YOUR HEARTH QUAKE ?”
This was the tragi/comic interval, here come the second part of this post:
Isn’t it so that most meaningful scientific discoveries came as “accidents” occuring in the tube or in the circumstancies it was put under ?
Do you think that spirituals beings, truth lovers and seekers, should be less rigorous than scientists to verify the “ideas” or record the “accidents” ?
Do you really propose “consitancy and trust” as tools for “verification” ?
When the School disgarded Mister Eckart Tolle (author of “The Power of Now” a book we were invited to book mark but not read!),
when the school labeled Adyashanty as ” B influence virus”,
was you not doubting the conditions with which you can properly study what you could put in the tube ?
When I was told a list of students attending a “B influence virus” was made, I was not that surprised (we are what we are and we mean well…
but when I knew Robert himself called some of the “dissidents” up, not to study, explore, investigate but to give them an ultimatum (you have to choose!), it was all very embarrassing.
The “Verification tool” the way it is proposed in the FOF, is, I am afraid, rethorical and marketting orientated, not a reality.
Someone suspected the FOF is a “monk way”,
not as a turn even, but as a starting point!
I surely failed myself working, with rigour, with verifying this hypothetesis :
Is the FOF a 4th way School… ?
Now, if I sincerely try to consider Robert as a leader of a Monk Way, I understand something:
He should not be there to convince his student.
He should teach what he has to teach and recieve support from them!
“Accidents” still need to happen because great discoveries are to be made!
Good luck to us all!
April 20, 2007 at 11:21 pm
#6 Ha-ha-ha! This is grrrreat! THAT’s what I want to hear. Tell me MORE! Tell me more what Robert does in his bedroom and how Girard curses on his computer and his wife. That’s what I am talking about!
Forget about all your alternative solutions, let’s talk BUSINESS here!
April 20, 2007 at 11:24 pm
BREAKING NEWS!!
4/20/07 Friday, 1:40 pm Central Time
MILES O’Brien reports by phone to CNN that an armed EMPLOYEE broke into a MEETING room in BUILDING 44 at the Johnson Space Center in Houston, Texas and ordered everybody out of the room except one person. An E-MAIL was sent by Public Affairs to all employees that shots were fired, building 44 is in lockdown, employees have been evacutated and roads to it have been cordoned off. Building 44 is the communications center for tracking satellies, the international space station and the space shuttle.
Johnson Space Center is described as a secure complex which, nevertheless, has beautiful green lawns, fountains and a large park-like setting.
This is a real news story happening at this very moment with too many parallels to ignore.
April 20, 2007 at 11:25 pm
To Rita, 7/ 6
It was a long time we did hot have a “salty” view of Robert’s bedroom.
I turned into a voyeurist. Feels bad!
You introduced the translated letter with a “funny ” while a timid “sad” appeard between parenthesis right after…
The “SAD” deserves capital letters and should appear first!
Since someone introduced the exisitence of a blog similar to this one in Russia, for Russian, would you say more about this ?
It seems to me you are the “perfect” link.
We can only benefit from using more ways to inform and be informed…
Thanks.
April 20, 2007 at 11:33 pm
Hi Howie, me again.
When you wrote in post 341/6 -HC
“We understand, from several sources, that Influence C sets the curriculum and the teacher, as their intermediary, interprets their wishes”
Would this include Gurdjieff ordering from the astral plane through RB as intermediary that students should crap on Robert, “In order to be more present”?
Maybe you could submit your Willie to the teacher and tell us what you verify?
Ryan.
April 20, 2007 at 11:37 pm
#407 joe average
Thanks joe. Anyone in the fof who can read that letter and not have their eyes opened is in a hopeless situation.
“You are required to adapt to a complex, sophisticated technology of mind and emotion, through which you understand yourself and upon which you view the world.”
Chew up the map. Choke down the plug. Change the topography. Print out more copies and resume gnawing away, all the while pooping out paper turds for poor souls to follow.
April 20, 2007 at 11:46 pm
Donations anyone? Ridiculous!
May the sheik gets what he deserves! This is now no longer different than the Fellowship exploiting its members, now we have to pay you for showing us we were fools in the first place?
I thought the Sheik told us on page 1 he thought the FOF should be free of charge, but he wants to charge for his services–what is the world and this blog coming to?
Fed Up with all the BS!
April 21, 2007 at 12:21 am
Jules #5:
I worked in the office at Renaissance in the early 80s, and sat next to your mom for a while. Such a sweet lady, I remember her well. Didn’t see much of you in those days, but we met a few years ago at Burning Man. So, hi there.
You write about the non-dualist approach: “It’s the kind of talk that has allowed people for centuries to destroy, deny, and debase the bodies, thoughts and feelings of others.”
I’m not here to defend Wheeler or anyone from the non-dualist perspective, but it seems to me you’re throwing the baby out with the bathwater here. (coot made me say that!)
(aside to coot: maybe you do Frying Pan/Fire for Dummies?)
The idea the non-dualists are trying to get across, as I understand it, is that I don’t have to IDENTIFY with thoughts, emotions, body, personality, etc.–in other words, all that impermanent stuff that’s NOT my true nature. It’s not a license to deny, destroy or debase anything or anyone. In fact, it seems to me just the opposite, in practice. There’s an openness, a curiosity, a lack of judgment (not to be confused with discrimination, which is certainly encouraged), with respect to self and others.
I think it’s possible for any truth to be distorted, to be misinterpreted, depending on the hearer’s being, and this may be the danger you’re pointing to. But this danger is not unique to the Advaita tradition.
You also write: “I want to live a full life here and now. And that means looking at it all clearly and accepting that it’s all going down as it is in this body, with these thoughts and feelings …it’s in realizing that I can take responsibility for some small portion of how my life unfolds, and connect to the I Am that we are at the same time that I fearlessly dive into this experience of Being Human…I’m tired of intellectualizing my life away. I want to live it.”
Yes, beautifully put! And I don’t see anything there that would be at odds with the non-dualist approach. To “connect to the I Am that we are” is exactly the point, it seems to me.
Blessings and thank you for being here.
April 21, 2007 at 12:42 am
Verification has been mentioned a number of times recently. I wonder what it means?
In my early years in the FOF verification was strongly emphasised. Looking back on it, however, what was actually occurring was that I (and others, as far as I could tell) was trying to fit my experiences into the FOF and 4th Way concepts with which I was being presented, even if it meant adding to or distorting the actual experiences.
Verification was often connected to “third states”. For instance, I was sitting in a railway compartment and became intensely present. I looked around and saw that my fellow passengers were not very alert: reading newspapers, dozing, etc. Then, into my mind came the thought: “yes, I am verifying that human beings are sleeping machines!” But wait a minute - that’s not what I saw. I saw a particular group of people in a particular situation, most of whom were not very alert. That’s real enough. What’s not real is the mind adding the “verification” that human beings are asleep.
Similarly at RB events I would sometimes enter that very intensely present state. Then the mind would say something like: “yes! now I’m verifying that the school is real!”. But actually all that was happening was that I was being intensely present and the mind was adding its usual irrelevant commentary. No doubt if I was a Catholic listening to the Pope in St Peter’s Square and I entered the third state my mind would say: “Yes, the Christian religion is the only true faith!!”
Girard used to say that if you’re not verifying something in the present moment then you have no verification. In other words, memories of verifications are useless.
I would go even further and suggest to those who still find this concept alluring that you simply watch what’s going on in the moment and ignore the mind’s commentaries, even if they confirm RB’s teachings or whatever you want to believe. The “verification” is completely unnecessary. What’s actually happening in the moment is the only reality.
RB
PS thanks again to Howard Carter for having the courage to present the FOF hard line viewpoint in a clear and sympathetic way.
April 21, 2007 at 1:21 am
FedUp #20:
What part of VOLUNTARY do you not understand?
April 21, 2007 at 1:51 am
“Practical” (6/382), you ask many familiar questions – familiar to both current and former members. I hope you take the time to carefully read and think upon the comments made by “I’ll Give It a Try” (6/397) and how they might apply to your work.
To some of your questions, I would like to reiterate earlier postings as food for continued thought:
“FenceRider” (5/140)
The sex is not the issue for me. Without going into detail, it is the abuse of power, misuse of resources, continual excesses, stifling of open discussion, lack of compassion for the other side of the fence, encouragement of borderline ethics, poor judgment, unreasonable interpretations of events, and use of fear and unfounded promises to control others that are at issue. It is not the money. It is not on that scale. It is about what we support. It is about conscience.
“coot” (6/215)
Older non-leader student think what happens off-stage does not affect your “work?” Deadening of conscience does not affect your work? Does not apply? Two words: Brian Sisler and Kevin Kelly. You know. You know you know. And knowing, must finally “at long last” come to understanding that if price of FOF is allowing vulnerable to be preyed on for YOUR apparent progress, then there is no progress – only hole in heart.
The painful thing for me after all these years is the growing realization of the extent of RB’s depravity. I feel a deep sadness and a deep anger at the same time. However, I want to not allow this to taint the true and countless meaningful moments I experienced as a fof member (yes, including many moments with Robert). Believe me, I understand about not wanting to accept that this could be true and buffered the facts for many years – in and out of the fof. It’s a crying shame and I truly hope that Robert gets the help he so desperately needs.
April 21, 2007 at 1:54 am
To I’ll Give it a Try and Traveler:
No, I am depressed because all the ‘I’s, and everyone believing them, are clouding the main issue: are we present with every breath we take?
You have neatly dissected my post, and in doing so, have proved my point. You cannot accept that the school can be real for yourself or for anyone else.
We each see the world as we see it, and what we see wills it into being. For those who see it one way, the Fellowship is a mystical, transformative journey. For those who see it another way, it is a sorry joke. Who can explain why we see and love what we do? It is therefore best to refrain from judging, and to let the judging be done elsewhere.
There are many stories like the Emperor’s New Clothes that illustrate the folly of missing the obvious absurdities in front of one. There are also many stories to illustrate the reverse, about missing what is high and noble in front of one — the story of Jesus being the foremost.
On the last day of our lives do you sincerely think you will be able to say that you lived more truly than me?
Adieu bloggers… I am so fond of so many of you…
April 21, 2007 at 2:01 am
This message was written by an unknown author — ES
I am surprised at how many individuals have opinions on the FOF.
There seem to be a number of repetitive theme’s
1) IS R conscious
2) is the FOF a real school
3) is the FOF the only way
4) can one evolve with out staying in the FOF
In regards to #4 my opinion is yes former students as well as those who have no contact with the FOF can evolve.Consider what we know. Ouspensky left Gurdjieff. We do not know Gurdjieff’s teachers and why he left. Nicoll left Ouspensky. Collin continued after the death of Ouspensky. Robert was kicked out of Alex Horn’s group.In my opinion a student can reach a point where the correct action is to leave a teacher. There is no one answer.
Another opinion is R’s false propecy’s I consider it possible that R either intentionally or not is lying. There appears to be some outrage that R is not a nice man and those who seem to insist that it is important that one be nice in order to be conscious. I consider this a confusion of ideas. There are those that follow a spiritual path that embraces goodness. R has never taught this. In the early days of the FOF when I was a student R spoke of the neccessity of acting as a corporate executive and against “femine dominence” which might be construed as others ideas of what is good. I do consider that the FOF is indeed a preporitory school for the real 4th way which is work done in life. R fails to teach his students how to deal with the results of efforts, that is the experience of higher centers. I do not endorse his methods in this and believe them counter productive. In my opinion there are better models for a school than a rigid heirachy.
Fi\or the sake of arguement consider that If the FOF is a true school it is still not the same for each student. Some are ascending some are descending, some need to be in the school some need to be in life. I do not pretewnd to understand the scale of school on earth. The members of the Gurdjieff foundation are just as formatory in their claims to own the true liniage as the FOF is in claiming it is the only true school.
As for cost that is the single most ridicolous arguement. In “life” to attend a highly rated University to the level of recieving a Doctorate can easily cost $100,000. If those who are members of the FOF think they have verified the reality of self remembering and that the FOF can help create this in them then cost should mean nothing.
April 21, 2007 at 2:05 am
Fed Up Says: “Donations anyone? Ridiculous! May the sheik gets what he deserves! This is now no longer different than the Fellowship exploiting its members, now we have to pay you for showing us we were fools in the first place?”
LOL I knew it was just a matter of time before this exact sentiment was expressed. “This is now no different than the Fellowship exploiting its members” I hope you can see the hypocrisy of this statement. First you are willing to pay thousands and thousands of dollars year after year in order to buy yourself entrance to the FOF property and a status of a chosen saved one, then you blow up when someone suggests voluntary donations to the Sheik in any amount, should you perhaps feel you want to thank him for his time and server space. Because money is dirty, and should never be exchanged for intangible benefits, right?
April 21, 2007 at 2:09 am
Some fantastic posts recently, in case you missed them:
I’ll Give It a Try (6/397) carefully turns over every rock to reveal the unexamined assumptions that underlie justifications for remaining in the FOF.
Traveler (6/405) gives a well-reasoned response to Practical, including this excellent point:
“Isn’t it odd that, in the school, we are asked to examine our attitudes and see our mechanicality, but our relationship to the school and to the teacher is not included in that examination, as if it were something that is beyond investigating?”
Rabbi Burns (7/22): Points out that “verification” is merely the mind fitting one’s experience into pre-defined concepts.
Thanks for writing.
April 21, 2007 at 2:53 am
#20 Fed up…take a chill pill dude. No one’s demanding anything of you. Are you looking for a target for your animosity?
April 21, 2007 at 4:27 am
Hey, Fed Up (#20): Why don’t you LOOSEN up and WISE up!
And consider the following:
1. The FOF Discussion forum is already in its 7th incarnation and is only 1 of 27 other categories covered on the Animam Recro website.
2. Giving bloggers the opportunity to help financially with the upkeep of this site was not the Sheik’s idea, but was suggested by 2 other bloggers (#6/345 & 6/350). And even Martin from Berlin took some unjustified flak from another blogger who mistakenly thought he was “selling” 4th way ideas (and later apologized).
3. No one is required to log in or donate any money to continue viewing or contributing to this site. It is still free to all.
But I guess we already have your contribution (post #20), don’t we!
Why don’t you just sit down, loosen your underwear, and relax! And do your research before you go off half-cocked!
April 21, 2007 at 4:54 am
Dear Rita and Kosta,
Thank you for the letter and the translation. Well written and honest.
Have the students in the FoF signed an agreement of insanity? What is it going to take before normal, intelligent people, many who I have a high regard for, and have been friends in the past (until they stopped talking to me after I left) realize what they are paying for?
The other day I was stopped by a Green Peace person in the street and handed a brochure describing all the wonderful things these young (and not so young people ) are doing in the world to slow down the process of destroying nature , our natural resources and the environment we live in. They asked for a contribution. Did I give it? You bet I did! I thought of all the years of paying into something that was perverted at best and illegal at worst (a church using its money to perpetuate the leaders perversions and insatiable greed). At least these Green Peacers show something for their efforts as they work toward preserving (in whatever small ways they can) the environment for future generations.
And this guy RB calls himself a ‘teacher’ and suggests that he is preserving something for future generations. Ha, Ha, Ha!
Next time you go to a $125 breakfast or dinner with RB, and Dorian is carrying a cushion for Robert to sit on, think about it. Or when you are sitting there waiting for him to come out, and it is taking a verrry long time, think about it! And then think about the donation you made just a few days ago and how it is being used. Just listen to your conscience (the quiet voice that you keep overlaying and squashing). Wake up and listen.
April 21, 2007 at 5:18 am
This is a message directed mainly to students in centers around the world.
Dear Friend,
I write to you as Clara Elena Gutierrez de Haven, Girard Haven’s wife and a student. I am in no way writing as an official representative of the Fellowship of friends who I have left and Girard and I are in the process of separating.
I nevertheless know that I am responsible for having inspired a few of you to believe in the Fellowship because I believed in it and wish to let these inspirations go where ever else they need to go. Very particularly I address this letter to the students that joined while I directed the centre in Colombia and the students in the centres I visited with Girard in India, Kiev, Italy, Greece, Istanbul, Brasil, Argentina, El Salvador, Mexico, Budapest, London, any other I might forget and those few students at Isis that might have ever been inspired by me to continue in the Fellowship.
Please forgive me for having supported the Fellowship for so long and helped convince you that it was worth supporting it. It has taken many years for me to understand why it is not only not worth supporting it but it is harmful to each individual to support it, with the structures that it holds today.
It harms the soul to give itself up for other’s benefit at its own cost. It is an extremely defficient first line, very blind second line and third line has never really existed in the Fellowship of Friends because the Fellowship of Friends has never sincerely worked for the benefit of humanity. The third line has become an imaginary divinity called Robert Burton.
I do not wish any harm to any one or have any “personal” attacks but I openly question the institutional role of Robert Burton: the teacher of this school; Girard Haven: my husband and main supporter of this school; Mr. Braverman and every other student who continues to say that this is a conscious school working for your benefit and I state that they are lying to you and wishing to take money from you at your own cost.
Each one of them has their own reasons to keep the school as it is and they may be very valid reasons when looked at them from their point of view but they are no longer valid from the point of view of a School that presents itself as a conscious school in the fourth way tradition.
What “works” spiritually in the Fellowship of Friends today is, as always, every sincere effort that each one of us is willing to make. There is no question about that. What doesn’t work is that the teacher and many students in the establishment have stopped working on themselves and crystallized in a position that allows them to live a fairly comfortable life around Isis or in centres, protecting their roles or the monetary investment that they have put into the development of Isis and Oregon House.
Students who have lived here at Isis, for many years, have developed small and bigger businesses and live on providing the school with services, the students that come from abroad to rent or buy the properties they’ve developed, or selling the products they produce. While a great deal of this effort has been a sincere attempt to support a conscious teaching, a lot of it has now rooted on the instinctive centre disallowing many to push their work forward and question the Fellowship of Friends as a school or Robert Burton as a teacher. Most of us have gone about trying to transform what we don’t understand for too many years and have finally accepted it without seriously considering the issues involved.
The few other students that have painstakingly laboured in whatever area of the Fellowship to make it “work” are somewhere in the outskirts making their own businesses or working inside with enough limitations and conditions to not allow them to develop a serious and objective second line. The privileges abound and the so called inner circle keeps tight reigns so that they don’t loose power. Indeed, they have enough power to not give opportunities to anyone they don’t like without any objective guidelines.
I do not need to prove to you that the Fellowship has become big business because at Isis as much as in any centre the focus of our work has gone into how much more money we can give to support the school.
If I sincerely believed that this conditions were not harmful I would not be writing to you or on the Fellowship blog on the internet but I sincerely believe that it is harmful to each one of us individually and all of us as a school to support the money making institution in which Robert and his followers have turned the school into.
Besides being one of the strongest supporters of Robert’s teaching for the past seventeen years, you will also remember the innumerable times that I have questioned the lack of second line of work in the Fellowship and my husband’s statements that support consciousness without functions, which is the main ideological pillar to accept the Fellowship as it is, by granting a status of man number seven to Robert and justifying the greed and abuse of his functions, without questioning them.
The other pillar on which my husband stands and wishes others to stand, is his own very personal commitment because who, of any one individual can question another’s personal commitment? Isn’t his relentless commitment what each one of us has been so inspired by? Haven’t we all stood on his shoulders and deeply loved and admired his stoicism and commitment to Robert? Unfortunately, yes. We have stood on his shoulders to push him down as much as to push ourselves up, The main portion of the inner circle, continues to stand on those shoulders to keep the school running especially in these times of crisis, because they do not have enough substance of their own to keep it running, not the conviction nor the cause.
Is it really that surprising that Girard Haven would support the teacher at no matter what or whose cost so that at least one of his teacher’s prophecies could become true? Is it not perfectly human, no matter how mistaken it might be? Who would not have wished for that role or made that commitment? Is it not simply what any one else having been given that role would have done? But Robert has not done as much damage to any other student as to Girard himself. The damages are not only physical but emotional and intellectual and if you have any serious doubts, you can ask any one who trully loves him about the excrutiating price that Girard Haven or those around him have had to pay for it, without any conscious living in return. Being married to The Fellowship as some students proudly say about Girard, is no marriage at all, no life of its own and there is nothing noble about giving up one’s life to an imaginary role so that one does not have to face the simple facts.
Friends are not those that accept everything they see silently but those who are willing to challenge us at every turn and with no one else to question, no one in the Fellowship stands a chance.
It is not easy for a woman to stand against her husband on no matter what issue, but it is not against my husband that I stand. There is no love in sitting and watching Girard, Robert or any body else, take the lot of us and many more innocent than us, down this descending scale. Has it not crystallized enough that no matter how many or how much others have tried, it continues to descend? Has any dissent inside the Fellowship, ever been possible when people are not even allowed to talk?
If I sincerely believed that letting things be, would make anything better in the long run, I would have perhaps left quietly but I do not believe that. I have seen the way in which Robert discards people who are no longer of any use to him, including Girard.
I have spoken with many students who have given their lives to the Fellowship before leaving, and begged them to defend Robert so that everything I was seeing could be a mistake and they have consistently told me that they cannot “defend the undefendable” and that there is “no unconditional love in Robert Burton”.
I cannot continue to support the damage that Robert has put on Girard by placing him as his second man or the damage that Girard is placing on students world wide by placing Robert first at the cost of himself, his wife and his friends, disguised under a robe of stoicism and self sacrifice. Nor am I able to support Mr. Braverman and the continuation of a structure within the Fellowship that instills in each one of us the pattern that there are individuals better than any one of the rest.
Robert and Girard or Asaf and any travelling teacher that pretends to have reached some level of awakening and hence can justify his support for this school, or shows superiority to anyone else, are no better, not a hair better than any student or human being inside or outside the Fellowship of friends.
If we wish to develop ourselves more consciously as individuals or schools, it will not be by re-enforcing the old authoritarian structure that holds any man better than his kind or an institution that reinforces the hierachy that such patterns generate.
I am not writing as a member or even an ex member of the Fellowship of Friends but on my own name or the I that was there to meet students when they travelled two days or worked them, to come and listen to what Girard had to say. I stood by him and tried to meet your expectations of a beautiful awakening. It is mainly because of the immensity of your rather innocent devotion that I can no longer stand by Robert, Girard or the Fellowship even at the cost of loosing a man I love, or a highly cherished relation with my daughter and friends.
Who else but someone that loves him enough can really say these difficult things? Not one of his many friends have ever layed the cards out and the whole deck is falling out of our hands before anyone is willing to play the right card and stop this blatant cheating that the Fellowship has become.
If it is at my cost, let it be at my cost because I am more willing to pay that price than the other one of keeping silent. My daughter and the young people ahead are also at stake and they are learning to accept corruption as their main course, so much so, that they themselves have indulged too much in it already.
If I have stood for CHANGE and continuation of the Fellowship, it has been because if there are any real students or teachers still in it, we know that being human IS failing, acknowledging the failure, IS necessary and correcting the direction, IS the solution. Only people with very personal agendas can want the Fellowship to continue as it is.
I have also wished this option possible because I am not interested in destroying the Fellowship and abandoning those who have put sincere efforts into building it but no matter how much I have tried to address what I consider serious issues about our lives, I have consistently been silenced.
The totally inadequate response of the Fellowship to the blog on the internet, with cheats and lies, is a reflection of the inability of the Fellowship to respond with any integrity to sincere questioning and suffering.
My husband, Girard Haven, had very clear motivations to stop students from reading the blog, not because it is criminal as the Fellowship has made students believe, or because it wishes to harm anyone physically, but because it deeply questions the School and each of our lives in it.
By stopping students from reading it suggesting it is not worth doing so and standing on the love and trust the endless adepts have on him, he is keeping students world wide from thinking and deciding for themselves what is best for them to do with their participation or non participation in this school and I have to oppose him as his wife, as a student and as a human being. This inability to question the school is the frightning expression of his own crystallized self.
With this letter I am letting go of the ties I have established between each one of you and whatever connections you might have to the Fellowship, through me. Let it be known that nothing in me is willing to support the Fellowship of friends anymore, and you must do so on your own with wide open eyes and love.
I beg you forgive me for the length of my discomfort.
April 21, 2007 at 5:24 am
Fed Up (#20) writes:
“now we have to pay you for showing us we were fools in the first place?”
From the perspective of one who has been fully indoctrinated and come out the other side — Is this not the net result of the 4th Way in general, and the FOF in particular?
April 21, 2007 at 5:30 am
I would be happy to pay for the services of using this blog which is taking someone else’s time to keep going.
While it may not be a huge sum, it may be the sum that one values it by. The blog will not last long and it has already demanded much from the Sheik.
I do thank you.
April 21, 2007 at 5:47 am
Hey, Fed-Up, don’t be silly. Sheik doesn’t WANT to charge you, the blog is free to use. It was simply suggested here by OTHERS who feel that it would be just FARE to compensate his efforts in moderating all the stuff we write here. He doesn’t have to put up with this, you know. It takes time to moderate stuff, probably hours. He’s been doing it for long time already, selflessly, providing us with a place to talk openly. Now some people wish to thank him by sending money. Don’t you think it’s fare?
If it’s not cool for you - just relax, OK? No need to get enraged. You are not being exploited here, buddy. Keep your money to yourself, or donate to RB -it’s dealer’s choice.
If you’re fed up with BS - then don’t post it here.
April 21, 2007 at 5:49 am
Cathie (#21) writes:
“The idea the non-dualists are trying to get across, as I understand it, is that I don’t have to IDENTIFY with thoughts, emotions, body, personality, etc.–in other words, all that impermanent stuff that’s NOT my true nature.”
I raised this issue in an earlier post, but it seems there were no takers. Where is the evidence to show that our thoughts, emotions, body, etc are NOT our true nature? In other words, I would agree that our awareness is part of our true nature — but why any more so than our bodies? Why the separation between body and awareness? What if awareness arises in the same way emotions do — that is, from our bodies, in some combination of brain activity? I’ve read of scientific research that suggests this. If true, would this demean us somehow, or make awareness any less real?
I agree with Jules that describing our awareness as true nature and our bodies as not our true nature just seems like intellectualizing. In my earlier post, I said that my body certainly seems real to me. My awareness may have degrees, but my body is pretty constant by comparison.
Non-duality sounds like it is falling back on the old duality of “consciousness is not functions”: consciousness versus the body, emotions, etc. What’s wrong with the concept that we are physical beings, whose physicality includes emotions, sensations, thoughts, and, yes, varying degrees of consciousness?
Not arguing, just trying to convey how things seem to me these days.
April 21, 2007 at 6:10 am
I’ve seen many posts earnestly trying to respond, directly and point by point, to posts from (apparent) FOF members. If any member puts a question up here, there will be posts from people trying to be helpful, or at least responsive, often painstakingly so.
May I request the same from those who approach these issues from the perspective that the FOF is wonderfully valuable, real, and so forth?
For example, Howard Carter, I find your posts parry every statement in a manner familiar to almost anyone who’s ever been an FOF member, choosing one of the stock angles that have been used for decades to counter the various “I’s” that question the FOF line. The more pointed issues, without obvious counter-angles, are generally ignored.
Would you be kind enough to set those refrigerator magnets aside for a moment and respond to the following, without trying to be “right,” or to justify your continuing loyalty, and without worrying about whether your response risks altering your role as Defender of the Faith on this blog:
What would it take for you (and I welcome a response from any member) to come to believe that there are fundamental flaws in the FOF, or with Robert, that are serious? Could anything possibly do that? My thesis is that there is nothing that could do it, because you believe that the FOF is a conscious school with a conscious teacher and, accordingly, by definition the only flaws that could exist are in the student’s understanding. For example, is there any sort of behavior in which Robert might engage that you would see as good evidence that he is anything other than a great conscious teacher? So far, it appears that, whatever anyone says about his behavior, your response is, “Maybe so, but all that means is that he’s under different laws.” Are there any limits to your willingness to resort to this perspective? Are there any limits to the perspective that as long as you’re trying to be present, nothing else matters, and the more outrageous the behavior, the more grateful you should be for being shaken out of your sleep?
Thanks for your consideration.
April 21, 2007 at 6:33 am
Hello to all, and warm greetings to all I knew in the FOF, and thanks to the Sheik for shakin’ things up.
I joined the London center in 1978, and was thrown out in 1994. I promised myself that I would not say anything publicly about the FOF for ten years, and apart from papers subpoenaed by Abraham Goldman for the Troy Buzbee case (sealed in any event as part of the settlement), I kept that promise.
I spoke and wrote to others about what was happening in the FOF for a couple of years before I left, and finished off with the letter below. I offer it for two reasons. First, some of the content may actually help readers. Secondly, it is has receded into history, so to speak, meaning that it can help one see that these disturbances in the FOF arrive in waves, and I was a part of just one of them, and what is occurring now is just another. From Ronald Macdonald leaving with about one third of the members in the early 70’s, through the Samuel Sanders, Miles Barth, Troy Buzbee, and other cycles, to the present, the waves are a feature of the FOF. So, as you can see from the letter, I expected change, and I am sure the other particpants in previous waves did also. Robert is still there, only his appetites, always prodigious, have grown a bit. I cringe at some of the contents of my letter of thirteen years on, but what the heck!
I had to retype the whole thing, the original files are in a now-defunct program, so forgive any errors, but it is unaltered apart from typos. As before, I have no problem signing my name—Ames Gilbert
14 November 1994
Here are some thoughts I am circulating among a few friends:
There have been quite a few letters and other materials passed around in the last few weeks, and I have been responsible for some of this. I felt that spreading information was the most practical act of regeneration to counteract the crimes of closing down and censorship that have been taking place in the Fellowship, spreading light to counteract darkness. Because I have nothing to fear and nothing to be ashamed of, I have taken full responsibility for my efforts by signing my name to everything that I originated, although I also re-printed and circulated anonymous letters when I felt it was right.
You may have heard about the meeting last Saturday, led by Linda Kaplan with the help of Girard Haven. If you have not, I feel you missed an unusual happening, and I advise you to talk to someone who was there. I feel that we were all given a great gift, that there was a demonstration of the rigidity of the form and its mechanical response to what Gurdjieff called the sacred cry from below against the unbecoming manifestations from above. I also feel there was a demonstration that we all get exactly what we ask for. Some have asked for the courage to obey the Master within, our consciences. Others sought an important external role; they have been given it, and they demonstrate daily how they use the opportunity. Some wanted to give up all responsibility for their evolution to others; their wish has been granted. A few wanted to buy an insurance policy to heaven; they are comforted in their illusion. Some gave themselves unconditionally to support someone else’s vision, believing it to be noble. They are noble slaves. And I believe the majority of students have some or all of these aspects. They see some of the dichotomies, and are sincerely struggling to resolve the good they have verified with the difficulties they see. They want to stay positive and comfortable. I understand. I want the same.
You may not know that the next day after the meeting, Howard Kingston, Stephen Merryweather, Ramona Merryweather, and Emily Gordon were given lengthy leaves of absence from the school. Cynthia Kingston was asked if she wanted to take a leave of absence, and I was told to leave the school permanently. You may not know that the day before, James Battaglia was given leave of absence for distributing copies of a telephone conversation with Robert. If you wish to ask the others the reasons they were given for these actions, I invite you to ask them individually. The reason I was given by Robert via Peter Bishop was, “Ames does not understand the purpose of meetings”. I have been trying to make transcripts of some of the “exit conversations”, and these may follow in due course; they may help you see the situation in a new way. For me, these dismissals constitute crime by the organization against the school, and the crime emanates from the highest source of authority, Robert. If you have any doubts, please study the situation—and please tell me if you reach different conclusions. At any rate, for me it is right action and regeneration to expose these crimes, and others, and shed light on them.
The rest of this letter constitutes my personal opinion about the situation in our school. But, these conclusions are not pleasant! Please believe me when I say that I am writing from a good place, the best that I can find. I acted and continue to act according to my conscience, which I came to the school to learn to do. I am confident that when I decided to act, I was given the help that I needed and asked for. I am confident that this will continue. I do not claim to be right, only that I must act according to my conscience, no matter what the consequences, and that is the right way for me.
My own difficulties with the form began fifteen years ago when I was at Renaissance. Robert entered the bedroom of my good friend John M., in the London teaching house. Robert was nude, armed only with an erection and overwhelming psychological power. He told John that he was an angel, and that C-influence wanted John to have sex with him, that he should externally consider the needs of his teacher. As a result, my friend left the Fellowship in agony. But, I personally did not act. I abhorred what had happened, and yet justified it by telling myself that I was getting great benefit from the school, and that I was not personally harmed. And this pattern has repeated itself many times since: each time, though, I was left more distant from the form.
I feel that we are in the hands of higher forces, and that a great play is unfolding for our benefit. The play so far has been a mixture of hope and tragedy in the finest tradition. I have come to think the following. With the help of higher forces, Robert was allowed to start the school for reasons that from the beginning were not entirely altruistic, and this has spoiled the possibilities for him, and at the least delayed them for us. The average student, like myself, came to the school with a spiritual longing. We also came with psychological dysfunctions of varying severity, problems from our previous life that we had not resolved. And we dumped all responsibility for the answers we sought on Robert Burton. For most of us, this was not the careful, partial and temporary lending of will advocated by the system, but the giving of everything, including the individuality we are supposed to reserve to ourselves. Robert even told mothers to give up their children, and many did! I know how this can be, because I too gave up almost everything in the name of something higher.
To try to understand what is happening now, I looked at Robert’s past. According to my sources, Robert Burton was asked to leave Alex Horn’s school after eighteen months of work on himself. He was given the task of not sleeping with other men, and failed this task from his teacher. But, Robert is very intelligent and had learned the outward form of how to run a Fourth Way school from Alex Horn. He had enough theoretical material, he was mechanically a gifted teacher, he felt qualified to teach others. Perhaps he hoped, as ordinary educators do, that he could stay one step in advance of his pupils, in this case a spiritual step. And, because he was emotionally centered with chief weaknesses of dominance and greed, he saw the opportunity to have others support him materially. However, Robert from the beginning mistook the weakness of signals from his poorly developed conscience for impartiality, and then took this sense of impartiality as an objective indication that he was free from certain laws. Please understand that he carried with him the part that won out when he failed his task; he brought his weaknesses. And I believe he did continue to work on himself, but only in order to learn to intentionally use World 12 creative energies, which are accessible to everyone unconsciously.
However, he soon began to take advantage of the enormous accumulation of trust, power and money that came with the complete abdication of responsibility by his students. Each time he ignored his conscience, it became weaker, and Robert’s conscience became completely buried after about ten years. He started to explore new areas of power with complete impunity. He found that because of the blind adoration of his students, every action remained unquestioned, and in fact students eagerly leapt to provide explanations that defied commonsense. He found that every indulgence could be satisfied. Anything could be explained by appealing to the inexhaustible credulity of a group of people that deliberately trained themselves to excuse everything in the name of ‘crazy wisdom’. His instinctive center started to enlarge, as it perceived it had no limits, unrestrained by increasingly feeble messages from his emotional center. At this point, his psychopathic development was complete; he is now a part of a group of people who are often intelligent, personable, charming, charismatic—a typical cult leader. They just happen to be devoid of conscience. The intentional absence of precautions against sexually transmitted diseases is just one aspect of this. There are now thousands of people who have had direct and indirect sexual contact with Robert. The implications are horrifying.
With the acquiescence of Fellowship doctors, he became addicted to painkillers and to Valium, a drug that allowed him to maintain a calmness we mistook for spirituality. At some critical point (between 1979 and 1981, in my opinion), his emotional center lost all contact with his instinctive center, and started to starve. His conscience is now inaccessible to him; buried under layers so thick that nothing but melting energies from higher forces can penetrate. The ‘emotional’ and ‘spirituial’ energy we think we are receiving is now being emanated from his instinctive center, his new center of gravity. And, his instinctive center is addicted to unlimited sex, money, and power, so it works to attract these things to itself, day and night. We are seeing him possessed, truly a blind Christ.
However, Robert is a very clever man, and we are very gullible. Once his quiescent conscience was buried, he had lost his internal guide. Se he started to look for signs outside himself, and there are plenty of signs if one looks for them. This has become a major interest for him—you cannot have failed to notice. Now, no longer a teacher, he encouraged his students to start looking for a guide outside as well. And all the while, higher forces are indeed managing the play! They gave signs, not necessarily the right ones; the rightness depended on whether the higher or lower was looking at the time. Those students seeking something higher received beneficial shocks, as many as their being could use. Those seeking self-aggrandizement received confirmation of their sense of self-importance. And now we have an organization where conscience is credentialed, a religion or cult, alongside a school where, if one wishes, one can verify that consciousness cannot be credentialed. Ah, the sweet beauty of Howard Kingston’s photograph to us all! How can we tell if another person is a man number five? Why would we believe Howard? Why would we disbelieve him? And, how can it matter to anyone else but Howard?
Consider the current situation. We have Robert Burton, who celebrates his consciousness in outward displays—parties, announcements, even estimates of degrees (7.3 last month); we have Girard Haven who coyly announces last week that he is a man number five. We have a teacher who says he is needed to tell some one that he is, or will be conscious, and that consciousness cannot be achieved without his intercession. Robert claimed last week that we only achieve higher states because of him! And at the same time we have people genuinely trying to work on themselves, students that are making progress, who have verified that they are being helped, who are clearing away the rubbish of false personality from around their consciences. From time to time, some of them stumble across their conscience when it has grown too large to ignore. This is a critical point, and for me there is nothing more important in one’s evolution than what is occurring at this time. If we take Robert’s direction, that is, we accept his claim that he is the centrally important guide or permanent star in our spiritual firmament, then we must squash conscience. You might be interested in these words from Peter Bishop. Last Sunday, he delivered Robert’s message to leave the school. He was asked, “What is conscience?”, and replied, “Conscience is a collection of subjective I’s. If a student accumulates too much material there, he should leave the school.”!!!! Well, I say, on the contrary!! I say if we realize that there can be no external master, and that our highest duty is to serve the Master within, then we are finally safe, we have found what we are looking for! And certainly, we cannot serve two masters at the same time.
So here we are, in a marvelous situation. It seems higher forces used Robert to gather 1900 students together, for reasons not yet fully apparent, and the process affected and linked multiple thousands more. Robert withdrew from his conscience into his fantasy. Higher forces are now withdrawing their support for him. His play is being made manifest to us. Unfolding before our eyes, if we wish to see, is a play of epic tragedy, a lesson for the ages. We are seeing how power attracts the corruptible, and how absolute power attracts the absolutely corruptible. We are witnessing the absolute of corruption, and we must learn the lesson, embrace the pain, allow it to penetrate the very core of our being. Then, when we in turn are tested to see if we have learned the lesson, at those moments of choice when our fate hangs in the balance, we may be able to turn the powers offered to us and dedicate their use to higher service.
What now? If these theories have any basis in reality, we can expect Robert to become more and more frightened, because he has nothing real to retreat to. We will be able to feel the fear emanating from the center. For example, today (11/1
Michael Goodwin called ex-students in the area to tell them they were forbidden to cross the property to come to La Cucina, a public restaurant. Bizarre, and illegal! We can look for and expect the actions of a scoundrel, a psychopath. There are several possibilities.
Robert might announce his retirement, on his terms. This would be a slow-motion, but nevertheless large-scale looting of resources. Such a turn would make him conveniently inaccessible, even more unaccountable, but with access to the same large amounts of money, power and sex. Or, he might liquidate all the assets he can here, including the Ming furniture collection, borrow as much from his American students as their credulity, savings, and credit cards will allow, and abscond to Europe to reign in the relatively undisturbed feeding grounds there. Perhaps he will try to hold out, exhibiting increasingly bizarre and out-of-control behavior, by clamping down on all dissent, increasing his reliance on external signs, making more claims of near-divinity to bolster his weakening authority. If he takes this course, it will probably end in both external and internal tragedy. There are other options. Whatever happens, I think it will happen quite soon and quite quickly. The structure he has created is too inflexible, too fragile, and his compulsions too great to allow the present illusions to continue for much longer.
Friends, it is of critical importance for us and for him that we do not let Robert go on his terms. It would be the end of all possibilities for him; that is, he would have lost his last chance to ask for help from higher forces and from us. And, he cannot receive help unless he asks for it. Even the angels must obey that law. And for us, we would have no way to repay the help and high favors we have received, form him and from higher forces. This mess is not Robert’s alone. There is only one of him, and thousands of us. It is our mess, too, and each one of us bears individual responsibility for feeding his addictions. We dumped all our problems on him. We gave him our birthright of power and individuality. We gave him huge resources; our time, our money, our labor, our love, our obedience, and some of us, our bodies. He could not resist the temptation, and is corrupted. There have been many warnings. We would not listen. We swallowed a ball of dung because it was gilded with gold. We heard voices, our consciences, tell us something was wrong and getting worse. We pushed those inner voices away, and sinned by using those most precious and beautiful gifts, the system and the tools, to explain away the discomfort.
My conscience surfaced for what I intuitively knew would be the last time, a few weeks ago. I knew that if I pushed it under one more time, it would become so weak that it could not speak to me again. I knew this was my last chance. I am so glad I took that chance! And so, I appeal to your conscience. I do not advocate those in the Fellowship leaving, or those outside the Fellowship taking action, or indeed taking any particular course. I just appeal to your conscience. It will tell you what to do. When you obey it, you are obeying the only true Master, the Master within. Trust it, and you can make no real mistakes. And this is true even if, and perhaps especially if, everything I have put forward about Robert and the state of the school is mistaken.
I do not seek to destroy the Fellowship, as Robert and the hierarchy that support him claim. I cannot be a “traitor to C-Influence”, as Robert has claimed before, even if I wished to. Think of the scale—how could an atom betray a man? It is my school, too, and to harm it would be like cutting off my arm. But the form is crumbling, according to immutable laws, as energy is withdrawn from it. All external structures descend. That the body of the Fellowship is throwing out healthy cells in such numbers, turning on itself, is a signal of present and impending trouble. There may now be more being outside the formal Fellowship than inside it. And if my own actions, which are internal, are wrongly perceived as external threats against the organization, there is indeed rot, and the form is tottering.
For myself, I pray that we will bridge this interval in the octave of the school together. I pray that the affirmative forces that Robert represents can be harmonized with the denying forces that have arisen to meet it, that both “sides” can come to see that they are both necessary for a healthy future. If either of these forces overwhelms the other, the school will be destroyed. We know that there must also be a reconciling force. I pray that I can recognize it and align myself with it. I pray that Robert will ask for help, and allow higher forces to redeem him, and that he can rediscover his Self. I pray that when my tiny mite of help is asked for, that I will not turn aside. I pray that Robert will be able to resume his Path, that he will be able to see that his journey is by no means completed. Indeed, I feel that the longer we support what he has become, the further back on that Path he will have to go. I pray that we can continue the journey together, helping each other as we are able, learning to love and care for each other, able to explore our humanity fully, but fully understanding that we are alone and responsible for our Selves and to our Selves, and that our plays are in the hands of higher forces, not in the hands of an external teacher.
Whatever you do, and whatever you think about this letter, please heed James Battaglia’s splendid advice. Keep you eyes and ears open, and try to be in the moment. Please do not copy or distribute this letter, although you may let others you trust read it.
Sincerely,
Ames
April 21, 2007 at 7:23 am
To: Skeptical Optimist, 7/10
“Although I have to say I’ve gotten some really good laughs out of “The Sequence” posts. Hard to imagine a “practice” that would so decisively take me out of the moment I’m experiencing.”
It seems you may have been mis-informed about the use of the sequence. We in the FoF don’t use the sequence when we are present, just when we’re in imagination.
The purpose of the sequence is to evoke presence, while at the same time disrupting imagination.
I assume when you say “take me out of the moment I’m experiencing” you are talking about presence, not imagination.
April 21, 2007 at 8:07 am
Rabbi Burns (22)
Reminds of the joke in The Curious Incident of the Dog in the Night-Time, by Mark Haddon:
“There are three men on a train. One of them is an economist and one of them is a logician and one of them is a mathematician. And they have just crossed the border into Scotland (I don’t know why they are going to Scotland) and they see a brown cow standing in a field from the window of the train (and the cow is standing parallel to the train). And the economist says, ‘Look, the cows in Scotland are brown.’ And the logician says, ‘No. There are cows in Scotland of which at least one is brown.’ And the mathematician says, ‘No. There is at least one cow in Scotland, of which one side appears to be brown.’”
April 21, 2007 at 8:45 am
Howard Carter really Coward Harder, real FOF member, also known as Pinoccio, wooden puppet wishing to become real boy. Upon partial realization, relative awakening, to real boy, he meet with Robert Burden and is ‘exposed’ for what he really is: wooden object to be fondled and used for burden’s pleasure; nothing else. This is no fairy tale, possibly fairy tail, but more likely one aweful nightmare that lasts lifetimes for many like him. He is advised by Jiminy Cricket, his CONSCIENCE,
‘Let your conscience be your guide,’
but is this heard? Is this verified? I don’t think so (Si-Do or So-Di or Do-Si-Do or So-Di-So; most likely: Do-Si-Do-Si-Do-Si. That makes a sequence simultaneously with representing
begining of descending octave (x 3):
Do-Si-La-Sol-Fa-Mi-Re-Do
2, 4, 6, 8, who do we appreciate? What a dance!)
So maybe help is needed from Harder Gavin, the supposed man 5 pronounced by burden’s proof. But Harder Gavin is no more real boy than man in moon is made of green cheese, if such a thing exists at all, ask his wives and children. Harder Gavin will argue point, along with Coward Harder, to act as foil extraordinaire on this blog to bend the truth to FOF benefit, no matter what, due to desperation infinatuum. Woe unto FOF as deception continues. Law of Karma exists whether you like it or not or belief in it or not. Get ready for Karmic pay back like FOF never seen before. Or,
would you like to swing on a star; carry moon beams home in a jar; or be better off than you are; or would you rather be a….
mule? (or substitute your own imagination.)
Descending ever so slowly,
Coward Harder
April 21, 2007 at 8:48 am
Regarding post 7/20
Excuse me, but if the dishwashers at Isis can be compensated, than so can the Sheik. If people want to compensate him for his time than they will do so (I already have).
No one seems to have brought up the point that European students pay about 25% of what American students pay. Why the sliding scale???
Listen people, the only reason this blog seems a little unbalanced is because it hasn’t found it’s real “voice” yet. It will. Everyone please keep posting. There really is alot a being in the people involved in this and it’s only a matter of time before we
get ourselves organized so that we can really feed each other.
Wasn’t it about 15 years into the schoool that Robert was hosting “motown nights” (before my time). How does that correspond to awakening?
This “school” is nothing more than an interesting country club.
April 21, 2007 at 9:16 am
To Howard 412/7.
No more debate. You might consider comparing the state you were in writing this post, with the previous two…
To an outsider, in this one you seem very much closer to reclaiming your own real life, or responsibility for it. Now… if only you can bypass that “Robert is under a different set of laws” group of ‘I’s’!!!!
Good luck!
April 21, 2007 at 9:23 am
I felt compunction for flaming the Wheeler “dealers” here– sorry that was harsh…maybe you’re right Cathy, I’m just scared by how those ideas can be used to abuse (but I’m always open to a jam, Bman or Woman;).
Letting all the feelings surge through me without judging them is still a new experience. The anger helped me move past the inertia and sadness. Maybe that’s why anger can be so valuable–and necessary to control by those who don’t want us to move through anything.
Aloha Advaitas and Aspirants of all time and space!
April 21, 2007 at 9:24 am
This post is directed to those who find joy in both posting or reading sensationalized information about Robert’s private life; information whose only purpose is to attack his character and otherwise discredit him.
You must know that none of these reports posted have gone through any means, legal or otherwise, to prove their authenticity or accuracy. By life’s standards one has to go through many steps to prove an accusation about someone. Accusers would have to be sworn in (with the possibility of being charged with perjury if caught in a lie), deposed, cross examined, etc. before a jury could convict someone for a supposed crime.
None of these conditions of proof exist on this blog. To make matters worse, most of the material posted is of an anonymous nature, with no repercussions to the posters or readers and is submitted by people with a pre-existing bias against Robert or the school. In other words, with axes to grind.
I wonder how these joyful bloggers would feel if they were held to the standards they themselves have encourged and promoted?
How would blogger X feel if he/she answered a knock on the door and found a policeman staring back who asked the blogger to come with him to the station?
The blogger would ask what it’s all about and the policemen would reply that some people called the station saying that blogger X was doing “bad things” with other people in their apartment behind closed doors.
Blogger X would of course ask who these people are who were making these accusations. The policeman would reply he did not know because they called in from the “anonymous” line. The anonymous line! Surely you must know their names! No, usually they leave false names; you know, they don’t like to get involved once they make the claim.
As the blogger is led away in handcuffs he/she asks the policeman when he/she can talk to a lawyer. The policeman matter of factly states that the blogger won’t need a lawyer, as they have already been convicted. Convicted, how is that possible?
Well, unfortunately you were reported by more than ten people. If you were to have been reported by one to nine people you could get a trial, but ten or more and you’re automatically convicted. Why is that asks the blogger? Well, we figure ten people can’t all be wrong, so why waste the taxpayers money.
End of story, except if you buy into some Enlightened Beings suggestions that at some point in time we must suffer all that we inflict.
April 21, 2007 at 12:56 pm
Fed Up (20): Yeah, donations are voluntary and will not affect this discussion in any way. But thanks for you time to post that meaningful thought.
April 21, 2007 at 3:16 pm
Howard Carter 45, You did not read the stuff about cognitive dissonance did you? Look it up, and PLEASE listen to what the bloggers are saying about seeing what is in front of you! In FOF terms STOP BUFFERING! Has RB committed any crimes? Not perhaps in the legal sense, as we are all consenting adults, but in a moral sense he has, and because of our human failings and ability to explain away our actions to reduce cognitive dissonance, we have been reinforcing the corruption in him.
To be able to admit to this, you will have to undergo feelings of an incredible sense of stupidity, shock and horror at your gullibility, disbelief that so many of us could have been so hypnotized etc. etc…are you man enough Howard Carter? I only hope you have posted under a false name, as this may assist the process some small way.
Is RB delusional, a sex addict or both???
From wikopedia on delusion:
“Grandiose delusional belief - inflated worth, power, knowledge, identity, or special relationship to a deity or famous person”
About sexual addiction (from channel 4 health website):
“Achieving sexual gratification for a sex addict is like alcohol to an alcoholic, and as with any other addiction, the sex addict gradually moves away from what is classed as ‘normal behaviour’. The addict finds it harder and harder to control their addiction and regulate their behaviour and views himself or herself as an object merely having sex with another object. No intimacy is built and no friendship or trust is formed. Behaviour becomes obsessive, repetitive and habitual; achieving ‘the fix’ often begins way before the sex act.”
some excerpts on sex addiction from wikopedia:
“It is a secret.
It is abusive or degrading to self or others.
It is used to avoid (or is a source of) painful feelings.
It is empty of a caring, committed relationship.
Prior to acting out sexually, the sex addict goes through a period of mental preoccupation or obsession. Sex addict begins to disassociate (moves away from his feelings). A separation begins to take place between his mind and his emotional self.
Altered state of consciousness / a trance state / bubble of euphoric fantasized experience.
Sex addict is disconnected from his emotions and he becomes pre-occupied with acting out behaviours. The reality becomes blocked out/distorted.
Rituals are a way to induce trance and further separate oneself from reality. Once the addict has begun his ritual, the chances of stopping that cycle diminish greatly. He is giving into the pull of the compelling sex act.
The next phase of the cycle is sexual compulsivity or “sex act”. The tensions that the addict feels are reduced by acting on their sexual feelings. They feel better for the moment, thanks to the release that occurs. Compulsivity simply means that addicts regularly get to the point where sex becomes inevitable, no matter what the circumstances or the consequences.
Risk factors for the addict include unstructured time, need for self-direction and demands for excellence, because they all push the addict toward restarting the cycle.”
RB’s way of avoiding cognitive dissonance?
April 21, 2007 at 4:39 pm
To Howard Carter post 45,
funny post, WHAT YOU ARE NOW THREATHING PEOPLE TO WATCH WHAT THEY STATE ON THIS BLOG JUST CAUSE YOUR LITTLE FEELINGS ARE HURT. Seems to me your effords are in the WRONG PLACE.
Howard you are a product of brainwash and a not so bright one at that!
I’ll be more than HAPPPY to drop a box of kleenex off at the Pyle gate for you!
marys_angels@peoplepc.com
April 21, 2007 at 4:56 pm
I really don’t want to support the dialogue with HC as it is rather a downer. It feels like trying to talk intelligently with an aged aunt who just is incapable of going beyond her certainties and whose stories you have already heard many times.
I don’t understand the FOF’s stance or what they are doing. HC is a self avowed ’scout’ so one has to assume that he/she/they are reporting back to the establishment and have a brief to represent certain opinions publicly on this blog. HC and some other posters can be taken to be the voice of established interests in the FOF.
How dumb to incite rather than placate. HC, in his post 7/45 is effectively soliciting people to prove that what they are saying is true. I would ask what proof would suffice to give him cause to admit the truth of allegations.
Does RB need to be subject to criminal proceedings? Does the FOF have to be subject to another audit? Are sworn, notarized, statements from a certain number of people enough? How many is enough?
HC is making it far more likely that former and current members will group together and press home an attack that is currently just a threat to membership numbers. I do not think the FOF could sustain a series of law suits and if evidence was forthcoming that gave law enforcement a handle on this, and it was in the political interests of an agency to prosecute the cause of the FOF’s destruction, the FOF could suffer a mortal blow.
In the end it is this kind of thing that will destroy the FOF, not posts on this blog and HC is making it much more likely.
I am stunned by the ineptitude of these people. It really is shocking that the FOF should be so hamstrung by their reliance on RB, that they should be incapable of intelligent damage limitation.
It feels like a real F OFF situation.
April 21, 2007 at 5:01 pm
32# Elena;
I appreciated Girard as a man who wished to awaken, and I respected that (and still do). I will walk away from anyone who proposes to awaken, or Liberate me.
Robert did not make me do anything. Nor did Girard. I left house, home and family, the only family I ever had. The actions were my responsibility, no one elses. If my life as I knew it was ‘destroyed’, well, it may not have been much of a life to begin with. I joined the Fellowship because I saw that Gurdjieff had something that I too wished for myself. That was to be a free man. It was not consciousness, awakening or enlightenment.
I can only repeat what I said in a previous post. Sooner or later you will be pushed into a place where you have to choose. Either choice will mean suffering (Sophies Choice). All you have to ‘do’ is choose
Alexis
104# Yesri Baba:
You just had to be there.
April 21, 2007 at 5:06 pm
Howard, you’re starting to sound a bit too much like honest Abe. Your thinly veiled threats are beginning to motivate me to tell my own RB horror stories. Keep talking.
April 21, 2007 at 5:09 pm
Hey Ames and N. Love you guys.
April 21, 2007 at 5:26 pm
Dear Howard,
Before today your postings didn’t move me enough to write a reply, because I didn’t find a space for discussion with you. What’s the point in sharing one’s understandings with someone who ‘knows it all’ and gives predictable answers to everything? That to me is a comfort of having set belief system and, as I wouldn’t try to share my thoughts with orthodox Christians, Muslims etc. believers, I wasn’t interested in doing so with you.
A friend of mine pointed out to me that it looks like you get ‘kicks’ out of attracting reactions and attention to your persona, rather than investigating the truth for yourself. So what was the point in writing you? Until today, when I read your last message #45, which is worth commenting on.
As usual, I didn’t find a space for discussion there, so my only reply to your words is: what load of bollocks, man!
And I know what you are going to say if you write back. How sad.
April 21, 2007 at 5:35 pm
Dear Sheik,
Congratulations again for your initiative
(this blog as a result) and your consistancy!
Could you give us fresh information on the number of hits this blog is receiving?
Some will not fail making all kind of calculations and perhaps deduce that, by now, almost everyone in the FOF reads the blog!
On Robert Burton and us:
Let it not be the morality of a fish and nor the gratitude of a dog!
There are not “others”!
Much appreciation.
To the bloggers most fitted to deal with the net:
How is the Wikipedia situation going ?
April 21, 2007 at 5:42 pm
Dear All,
I want to express my view on the subject of non-duality.
Although I read Advaita writings for some years now (but only Adya, Nisargadata and Ramana, Wheeler just lately), I don’t know much about the tradition as such and I am not competent in discussing the subject ‘professionally’.
However, Advaita or not, what I got from John Wheeler’s pointing and from my own experiences and understandings is of value to me. The basis of my current understanding is that all I see, feel and think is happening within impersonal awareness. Obviously, there is a body and mind of Rita and the world around her which she perceives through her senses. Yet, all is happening within this awareness. It’s not ‘hers’ as it is ‘nobody’s’, it just is and the body and mind are one of its manifestations. With this basic understanding, one feels united and in love with what is, it’s just a reaction of the body and mind to this realization. So, the questions of moral character, of integrity and choices are taken care of naturally, because one can’t harm what is oneself. One can harm oneself and others if the realization of this unity hasn’t occurred yet.
(a girl passed by, wearing T-shirt with words ‘love peace unity’ printed on it)
Really, if this basis is understood, things are unfolding naturally. Maybe there’s more to Advaita, but for now this perception is sufficient for me to be and live without fear or any kind of ‘need’.
April 21, 2007 at 5:59 pm
I personally find it hard to believe what Kosta or Inner Circle say about RB.
I wish someone could SHOW me, prove me that it is true. Majority of students would LEAVE if they knew it for sure. Can someone take a camera or a cell phone to bring the evidence from his bedroom out here? If RB is only pretends to be a teacher but in reality is a psycho and a pervert - why not everybody see it this way? PROVE IT!
I was told that he is using sex not for pleasure but for getting fine energy and then transforms it into a conscious energy for a meeting or a dinner to ignite our Higher Centes. And that he does not force anyone to do it!